Helping Women Face Their Financial Fears

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What is your role as an advisor to help your clients face their financial fears? Hi everyone, I'm business coach Steve Sandusky for Barron's Advisor: The Way Forward podcast. My guest today is Sarah Carlson. Sarah is a financial advisor and the founder of Fulcrum Financial Group in Spokane, Washington. She's also the author of an important new book titled Facing Financial Fears: 8 Steps to Financial Freedom for Women. In today's conversation, we explore Sarah's story about overcoming her personal adversity and how she helps clients face and overcome their financial fears. So let's get started with Sarah Carlson. Let's start by going back a few years. You were in New York City. I think you were at a due diligence meeting And on that trip, you had a life-altering event. And I don't want you to share what that event is yet. We're going to get to that. But I want to know, what was your life like at that point in New York?

My life was very similar to, I think, what a lot of advisors' lives are now, balancing a lot of responsibilities. Had 4 children, all under the age of 5, worked hard to take care of them and to provide for them. And really had a demanding schedule. I, I worked very hard to take care of a lot of different people.

And were you physically active? Did you have some outside passions that you were exploring back then?

Yeah, I mean, I grew up being an athlete. I was a ski racer, grew up in the mountains of Colorado, and then played volleyball and basketball and track in high school and was fortunate enough to go to Yale University where I became a rower and actually did that for a while with national team. And so I've always been athletic. Athletics has always been a big part of my life.

And then something happened while you were there. What was that event that occurred?

Yeah, I was at an Oppenheimer due diligence meeting in New York City, and I was crossing the street, waited for the light to change, and in the middle of the crosswalk, there came a car out of the blue. A gangbanger had stolen a car and purposely ran me over. It was pretty devastating in a moment. I had no anticipation that it was happening. I didn't know I was getting hit until the car was on me. And at the point of impact, and I was flying through the air, my mind said, this is why you ski race. You know, you know how to fall, you know how to fly through the air and hit the ground. And so That's what I did. I protected my head and thankfully I lived. I had really life-altering injuries from that meeting. What's really weird about trauma and high-impact accidents like that— thankfully I haven't had many of them, and certainly that's being the biggest one— seconds become huge blocks of time. I mean, the amount of information you process in just a split second is crazy. I mean, I almost feel like Those few seconds seemed like days to me. When I landed, I looked down. I knew I was hurt because part of my leg had been ripped off and I had a lot of blood and it was at a weird angle. And, but I was overwhelmed with gratitude because I knew I was alive and I knew that I was really hurt. I had no idea how badly I was hurt.. But I really felt a sense of relief and I had the opportunity to show my children how to endure and navigate through such a, a crazy event.

And you just published a book called Facing Financial Fears. And what were you feeling after that? You had this horrible physical situation, you've got a recovery period, so were you feeling some fear yourself, or what kind of fears were you feeling at that point in time?

Big time. I mean, there was a lot of uncertainty. I had a marriage that didn't serve me and, and really showed the challenges. And I went from being the glue and the person in the family that just kind of held everything together and made things happen to suddenly being an invalid. I mean, I became the special needs person that couldn't do anything for myself. And it was 3 years. I was disabled for 3 years. I had a series of 11 operations to repair myself. My biggest challenge was my pelvis was in 40 pieces. That's a pretty serious, life-threatening injury. And, um, unlucky I lived, and I was told I'd never walk again.

Over that 3-year period, was there a point where you reached a low point and you said, oh, I can't make this, I can't do this? What was some of the, the inner turmoil and thinking that was going on in the immediate aftermath of this accident? Well, I guess it wasn't an accident. It sounds like you said that they purposely ran you over, right?

The person who did it ended up going away to jail and served 10 years in jail for running me over. He committed 15 felonies that day. I, I just felt really honestly a lot of gratitude because it was— I was very aware that I was just so lucky I lived. And when the doctors told me I wouldn't walk again, I mean, maybe it was ignorance, but I didn't believe them. I just thought, you know, they, they don't know me. And I had an incredible will to just keep working at it. I had a goal of walking my 5-year-old older twins to kindergarten. And I trained harder for that than I had any other athletic event in my life. And it's one of my proudest athletic moments. So I, I just kept whittling away and then systematically I sought out the best medical care for the different problems I had. My, in addition to my pelvis, my lower back was blown out and all my joints, my knees and my shoulders. And so I, I got systematically rebuilt. The doctors told me I had 100% chance of having to have complete artificial hips put in after 3 years. When I was able to walk, they told me, okay, walk, but definitely don't run and don't overdo walking. And, uh, it was about 3 years because they had told me 3 years, yeah, everything's going to need to be replaced. And I was out walking and I wiped out. And I remember wiping out and just being mad. I tripped. I, and I got mad and I just thought, you know, these hips are I'm on borrowed time anyways. I might as well get some good use out of them. So I started kind of jogging, and from there I just took off and started swimming and then started to do more things. And I think it was at an LPL conference, another advisor looked at me, and I'm a tall athletic person, I'm 6 feet tall, and he came up and said, you look like an Ironman. And I was so flattered. I said, no, I'm awful. I thank you, but I, I can't do that, you know, and, and told him about my accident. And then he looked at me and he said, well, no one said you had to run the marathon part. And I thought, you know, he's right. So I decided to then train for an Ironman. And I did, I, I did, um, Ironman. I did 2 of them and did many other athletic events on the way. So I, the doctors couldn't tell me that I was hurting my body by doing these events. I had x-rays every year and. A couple of the doctors called me freak of nature, and I really took that as a compliment. And to this day, I live pain-free. David Helfet, the man that did the original surgery of piecing together my pelvis, he's, he's at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York City. And I recently had the opportunity to connect with him and send him some X-rays, and, and he marvels at my recovery, and, and so do I. I'm so thankful. So, attitude, mindset, it really helped.

That's outstanding. Yeah, what a great story. So, you know, you had this terrible situation, you're working with a lot of clients, you've got a very successful financial advisory practice, and now you come out with this new book called Facing Financial Fears. And I think you do a lot of work with women in particular that might be facing financial fears.

Yeah, the book is titled Facing Financial Fears: 8 Steps to financial freedom for women. I really have a lot of empathy for the professional warrior woman who's really working very hard, very much like I was going into my accident, holding it all together, giving away time and energy, and always thinking, you know, you're going to have more time and energy to do things for yourself and don't allot time. So I, I wrote the book because it was a way to positively impact more people than I could through my advisory practice.

And did your experience going through your situation, how did that show up in the book itself?

Yeah, so I talk, I reference the accident as well as other life events I've had that have broken me open and helped me personally grow. I work with a lot of people, men and women, that have hangups about money. And I feel that there's so few things you can control in life, but I feel money is one of them you have some choice and control over. And so putting some systems in place and taking action, you can at least eliminate that. So money is not a drain, an emotional drain.

And what are some of the different types of financial fears that you see show up in women in particular?

Well, women in particular, and I think it's society, it could be genetic, but we historically, I think a lot of women have been raised that money is masculine, money's aggressive, money is difficult and challenging. And so many times I have encountered many women that are baffled what to do, how to do it. Fearful about it. Many times I've, I've worked with people that they have millions and millions in the bank. They're still worried about becoming a bag person. I've been in this business over 30 years. I've seen so many ordinary people live extraordinary lives because they've been coachable and taken my advice.

So all of us bring our own biases and fears into our conversations with clients. So as a financial advisor, I'm sure you've got your own biases that you bring to the table. Let's go back to how you were brought up. You mentioned that oftentimes we think of money as a masculine type thing. So what was money like when you were growing up? What were some of the messages that were communicated? And did you continue with those messages that you were brought up with? Or was there a point where you said, you know, that's just not the right message that I want? I actually don't agree with that. And so I'm going to communicate and I'm going to guide and I'm going to advise on a different message for my clients.

That's a really good question. I personally kind of grew up in an unusual situation. I didn't have TV. My dad was an encyclopedia salesman early in my life and then a dentist. He made quite a bit of his wealth through investing. And so he actually talked about investing. So I didn't have the regular influences that probably a lot of people have. I've always been really comfortable with money, and even as a young girl, I was really interested in following money market rates. Rates were, you know, double digits, uh, what inflation was, and, and cash money market rates. And I, I was big into saving my money and getting that higher interest. I didn't realize how unusual that was until I went to college. And realized that not everyone understood money the way I had. I don't think I had the regular upbringing, and that's a big part of why I came into the industry is because I went to Yale University and took a course from Robert Shiller, of course, big time in our industry and economics Nobel Prize winner. He made it all seem so whimsical and it just was so inviting and easy. So that's why I actually came into the industry.

And did you discover that it was whimsical and as easy as Professor Sheeler made it sound to be?

For me personally, it is. Certainly the people I coach don't have the same level of comfort. I have a theory that the way people, especially women, the way they treat their money many times is a reflection of their, their personal journey for, for self-worth. So, um, the book Facing Financial Fears is is designed to take the reader on a whimsical ride from fear to joy through 8 steps to motivate them, to scare them, and to motivate them to seek out, to take action and seek advice from a financial advisor.

I either read this in your book or I heard you mention this story on another podcast where you talked about a prospective client, or maybe they were an existing client, came to you. They were divorced, the woman got the home, probably a more expensive home than they could afford to live in. I'd love for you to share that story in terms of how you gave some tough love there, I think, and what the ultimate result of that was, because I think that's a great example of the kind of impact that, that you have as a financial advisor in people's lives.

Thank you. Yeah, I'm going to call her Betty for this story. I know exactly who you're talking about. She originally came to me because she read something I wrote on my blog., and I addressed something about anxiety and fear. And she originally came in and said, I think you wrote that for me. And I didn't know this woman. And so she came in, made an appointment. And at that first appointment, when usually I, I have people prepare some information ahead of time, I give a complimentary consultation, and then it gives me a chance to give them meaningful advice, and we can kind of feel out whether or not we're a good fit to go forward and start a relationship. And in this particular case, Betty had just been divorced. She was very proud, a professional woman working really hard, teenage kids at home, and she was drowning in this new life that she had without her ex-husband. She had just come through a divorce. She lived in a beautiful house. She had a lot of house pride. And when she went through her expenses and we talked about her situation, I'm pretty upfront. I mean, I tell people when they're on track, or I also am really upfront when there's an opportunity to change and maybe things they need to think differently. And I didn't hesitate with Betty. I said, Betty, you have to sell the house. And she, like, jolted. It almost looked like she took a bullet. She jolted. And then I proceeded to tell her why. And then I walked her through the expenses of maintaining the house and how the house was part of her past and not necessarily her future. And then I recommended, you know, some maybe different ways she could go about of, of selling the house, taking the equity, getting into something that would free up her cash flow, maybe something that could be representative of her new life. And that I bet her kids would probably be excited about moving forward with her. And what was interesting about Betty And she's still a client today. I just adore her. Is right after that meeting, she just put everything into action. She called a realtor, she put the house up for sale, she made nice money. She was able to pay off some debt she had, the equity line of credit. She was able to purchase a home that was more appropriate and suitable for where she is now. Her kids were ecstatic, and because of the changes she made, she had additional cash flow. And for the first time in a very long time, she's able— she was able to take her kids on skiing vacation. She loves going on yoga retreats. And her life has just blossomed in front of me. And she now systematically is able to save money. She has this whole new life of financial independence because she was house proud and she was so scared of what other people thought. You know, there's a lot of pride caught up, especially for women around their houses.

Appreciate you sharing that. And again, just a great example of the impact that advisors can have. I want to share 2 or 3 quotes here from your book, and I'd love for you to comment on them because I think they're both interesting. One of them here is you wrote about, quote, "Turning your money fear into money love," end quote. Now, some people might interpret that the wrong way. So, what do you mean when you say turning your money fear into money love?

Right. So, I believe your relationship with your money is very much about your relationship with yourself. And wherever you are, you have an opportunity to grow and improve towards your own journey. So by going from a fearful state to love or joy can be achieved by having self-empathy and understanding of where you're trying to go. Everyone has different goals and needs, and there's an opportunity to positively impact your life. I mean, your money should really serve you and, and lift you up. I have a goal to bring femininity back to finances. I don't know if it was ever in there, but, but I want to demystify and have more of a conversation. There's too many people that are when they meet someone and are interested in them romantically, they're more willing to have sex than they are willing to talk about their financial situation. That fascinates me. That level of anxiety over money, the shame. I think it's an opportunity for us to grow and to overcome our own obstacles. It's more about self-love. It's more about using money as a way to take care of yourself.

So how does cultural attitudes toward money hurt women in particular?

Well, as a society, hopefully it's changing, but you know, where do we learn about money? So many times we learn about it in our home. Maybe we learn about it from social media. But as women in particular, it's been my experience that so many times women are promoted to conserve and budget and be thoughtful with what they have. And many times boys are taught to be opportunistic, invest, take risk. And I believe that has shifted with Title IX, which, you know, was only 50 years ago. I mean, before that, 50 years ago, I mean, women couldn't even have credit cards in their own name. They couldn't take out a loan in their own name. You know, so much of the privilege that we have now, it hasn't been around, but there's a lot of cultural imprinting that goes on. And, and maybe it's even cellular memory, you know. If you think about it, even from like evolution, women were more gatherers, the men were, were the hunters, you know. There's certain needs that we as people tend to want to gather and take care of others. So women, we, we tend to give ourselves away, uh, we tend to take care of everyone else. There's so many women just like myself who worked hard to take care of my partner, take care of my kids, take care of my clients. Many take care of your boss, and they don't leave time and energy to take care of themselves. And, and I think that's a mistake. I think there's an opportunity to have healthy boundaries. I think there's a really important, compelling reason that women in particular, we live longer, we tend not to be in the workforce as long. It's necessary to have money set aside and to have independence, a part of financial independence in terms of our own self-worth.

And along those lines, another thing that you wrote here was, here's a secret that men have always known that a lot of women never imagined. Being able to take care of yourself is the ultimate superpower. So I think you touched on that a little bit, but how does that show up in your work with your clients in terms of are you trying to educate and advise and guide them to the point where they can cultivate this superpower? Do you see that as part of your role?

Definitely. I mean, my job as a financial advisor is to communicate on a level that's meaningful to my clients. When I meet with clients, I so many times, if it's, if I'm working with a couple, I want both people there. And to educate the women as in addition to the men. I mean, it's all about negotiating their needs together and having them both represented. I mean, many times in a couple, they'll have very different risk tolerance. They'll have a very different relationship with money. And it's really important, my job, to help find commonality and help them to understand the opportunity of looking at things differently. And then through software and projections show what if on those different paths of them achieving their goals. It's really about the client's goals and, and not what I think they should be doing. My job is to help them get to their goals.

I also want to touch on some neuroscience research, and you brought this up in your book, some work by Antonio Damasio, who I think is recognized as certainly one of the most important research in the area of emotions and feelings. And of course, we talk a lot about emotions when it comes to investing. So I'd love for you to set some context here in terms of why did you talk about Damasio's research in your book, and what are some of the practical implications of what his research has concluded that we should be applying as a financial advisor?

Right. I do. I love neuroscience, and that's one area that I'm looking forward to learning more and doing more with in my writing. But certainly the psychology of money, you know, there's the, the amygdala, the emotional part of our brain, and so much. And you, you had a podcast recently that had a guest that talked about that emotions really help give thrust, you know, that's the primitive part of their brain. And that's where many times memories live, and they can get reinforced. By even thinking about those. It's the frontal cortex that is more of the higher level of functioning and to be able to think on a situation and come to a more executive function of getting to a goal. Over the years, I've worked with many people who have shopping kind of impulse control problems, and it gets them into financial problems. Well, A lot of that is being overridden by your amygdala. And, you know, there's a lot of dopamine and feel-good hormones that you get. It's no different than a drinking problem or other addictions. And so to be able to understand when you get that rush of feel-good, you know, you want to, you want to buy a black sweater dress when you have like 4 at home. You know, at the moment you feel like you got to have it. There's opportunity, and I talk about in the book, to, to let it rush over you and to let the chemicals, the hormones subside. So then you can think through if you still want that black sweater dress and you give it whatever your rule is. If you need an hour, I personally like taking 24 hours if I'm feeling too emotional about a big decision. That is one way to, to get over some— it's using neuroscience to help you make better decisions. I've met too many people, whether it's a new car, new house, rushing into something and then later regretting it, and it's hard getting out of it.

We talk a lot about emotions and emotional investing. And so here we are, as we're having our conversation today, the financial markets are down quite a bit over the past few months. And so do you apply this type of neuroscience research when you're having conversations with clients, for example, when they're really fearful that their account has dropped 20% or 30%, right?

So there's been a lot of those calls lately with this market meltdown. In that situation, I like helping to give different perspectives so they can engage the frontal cortex and have to think on the emotion. Because you're right, people get that statement, they're fearful, And when they, whether in person or on the phone, helping them understand that, you know, fear keeps us small. I mean, one of the reasons why news programs, you know, are constantly promoting, you know, scary stories is it keeps you tethered. So you'll be there to watch the advertising. And that's how they, they make money. So helping them understand like, where are they consuming their information? And then also helping them put it into context. I personally feel this recent meltdown is more of a mental meltdown than a market meltdown. I mean, if you have as much cash has been pumped into the system that the government has done over the last 3 years, as well as low-interest loans, I mean, so much cash following the same number of goods and services or even limited goods, inflation is inevitable. I mean, so helping them understand history and when this has happened before, and maybe historically when things were worse, in my opinion, which would be— would have been like 2008. That was more of a systemic problem because of all the bad debt in the system and the domino effect of this. Right now, we— there's still a lot of positive signs, whether it be consumer spending or corporate earnings and the job market. I mean, there's a lot of things that makes this one Interesting, but I don't think it's justifiable, the drama. I mean, a recession is just a normal economic cycle. That's another thing to help people understand. Growth, expansion, real wealth is made during recessions and depression.

I heard you say on another show, your vibe attracts your tribe. So how do you think about this idea of openness, knowing that I might repel some people and I'm totally okay with that? Because a lot of advisors are like, I just want to be right down the middle because I don't want to turn anybody off. I want to attract everybody. But they tend to like hide a portion of themselves because they don't want to be too transparent.

How do you think about that? I am open and pretty upfront. And you're right, I'm probably not everyone's cup of tea. I'm, I'm pretty opinionated. I think by being authentic, it, it helps you live in your truth. I'm really passionate about this business. I think life's too short that if you're pretending, eventually you can't pretend. It's no different than someone that's, that's pretending to be really wealthy when they're not. I mean, it gets to a point and things implode. So if you're emotionally pretending to be someone you're not, you're going to end up serving people that are attracted to someone that you're not, and eventually it's going to be hard, and it will be hard for you, and it'll probably be hard for the other people as well.

So, the great Abraham Maslow made an appearance toward the end of your book, and you talked about the hierarchy of needs that I think we're all familiar with. How does that show up? How do you think about Maslow's work as it applies to what you do as an advisor?

I think it's philosophically such an important foundation for people to really understand what do you really need, what do you want, and what— how does your money serve you? I certainly have dealt with a lot of people over the years, and some of their passion is to consume and take care of the wants and travel. And I have a lot that many people that are passionate about giving back to their community, charitable interests, educating their, their children. I, I don't judge people on where their priorities are. I tried to give guidance to help them get to their goals. I personally have, you know, I'm on a journey. I'm on a life journey. I don't think I'll ever— I'm really into self-discovery and growing. I, I just— the accident taught me, um, whether you live to be 24 or 124, life is too short. I mean, the one thing you can always make more money, you can't make more time. And how you spend that time is really important.

So you mentioned that you're on a lifelong journey. So how does that show up in terms of the journey that you're on?

Well, I mean, I'm a life learner. I certainly have a few books going at any moment, all the time. I, I'm a big consumer of coaching programs. The former program you were the founder of, Peak, I got a lot out of that. I went through that program and felt like I, I mastered and benefited from what you put together. So yeah, coaching, I think coaches come from in so many different ways. I think one thing, if I were to have done things differently, because I think I made every mistake myself before I really turned to coaching, was I wish I would have looked for other people and what they were doing right. And I didn't do that until I joined LPL, which I joined in 2008. Then I really started to look at, you know, other people that seem to really be providing incredible advice and, and doing it right and studying them. I think there's a lot of opportunity for advisors, whether you can have a mentor that can give you advice or just in this day and age, be able to listen to their podcast, look at their website, look at their content. For me, I write a lot of original content because it gives me lift and it's a, it's a way for me to share more of what I want to with the world. That's the one thing I would have done differently. I would have looked at more of what other people were doing that I would want to emulate and be like.

I think that's a good point in terms of seeing other successful people. What are they doing and what can I emulate? And the one thing that I always add to that is that we can't simply copy other successful people, because if we simply copy them, then we're just going to be a second-rate version of them instead of a first-class version of yourself. And so I love trying to understand what are some of the base principles of success, and then how can I take those principles but then apply them to me, my unique situation, my life experiences, who I am as a person, how I want to show up. And what nuance and newness can I bring to this idea so that, as we've talked about here, I can show up 100% authentically as who I am and not just trying to be a copy of someone else. So there's good ideas out there. There's good principles. We can save ourselves from making a lot of mistakes. But then I think we've got to take it and make it our own as well so that we can claim it as our own and we can live it as our own. And I think we're going to move forward and we're going to implement it more effectively if we can feel like this is my own. I've taken this idea, I've turned it around, and now I can really live into it. So I don't know if you have any, any thoughts on, on that little twist to it as well.

I absolutely agree with everything that you're sharing. I think in addition to pursuing those types of philosophies and people, giving some thought to your own mental mindset. And it's not just what you think, but like, what do you do to take care of yourself? I'm a big advocate on sleep, getting regular sleep. I'm one of those people that I get up early, I do things for myself, exercising. I think sticking with your values and taking care of yourself allows you to then take care of the people you love and and who you serve. The latest book I just picked up is, is actually one that's been around for 80 years. You probably have already read it, Steve. Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning. Did you ever read that? Oh yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. I mean, I'm kind of surprised I'm just now reading it. I'm getting a lot out of it. And it's sage, timeless mindset advice. I mean, isn't it interesting that there's certain things that never go out of style. And yet so many times we can lose our way and forget about what's really important.

Yeah, certainly Dr. Frankl, his, his time in the concentration camps and his experience of really trying to understand who are the people that, that had the mindset where they were able to deal with such a horrific situation and still retain hope, to still choose how they wanted to respond to such a desperate situation. And in his life work that came out of that is certainly something that is timeless and will be with us for hundreds of years in the future. So yeah, that's a great book. And for anyone listening to this, if you haven't read it yet, a wholehearted endorsement for sure. Well, Sarah, let's just wrap up with a couple things here. One is I'm going to give you a final question, but before I get to that, I'd love for you to share what's the best way for folks to connect with you? What's the best way for people to learn more about the book?

Yeah, I have a website that will take you right to Amazon to purchase the book. It's on Kindle, hardcover, softcover, and I'm working on an Audible right now. FacingFinancialFears.com, that will take you right to it. To reach me, you can do that through my company website. My company is Fulcrum. F-U-L-C-R-U-M, Financial, F-I-N-A-N-C-I-A-L, Group, G-R-O-U-P. So fulcrumfinancialgroup.com is my website. This book is really meant to motivate the reader, to scare them a bit, to take action, and to seek out advice from you, the advisor. So if there's ever anything I can do to come help build your business, do a book signing, present, I'm all in.

Yeah, great book. And, uh, certainly recommend folks go out and get a copy of it. All right. Final question. This comes from a previous guest and they had no idea who I was going to ask this question to. And the question is, if you could own a bird, what kind of bird would you own? And what do you think that says about you?

Okay. I'm talking to you today from Colorado and they have so many beautiful hummingbirds. I'm really amazed at hummingbirds, the way they're able to navigate and have such precision to feed and take nectar from a flower and yet to move and pivot so fast. Hummingbird. I'm constantly impressed with them and take time to look at them every time I happen to see one.

It's a combination of speed and grace with ease. I like that. All right, well, I think that'll be a great way to wrap up here today, Sarah. So again, appreciate you taking time to be on the show with us, and congratulations on the new book.

Thank you, Steve, and thank you for all you do in, in our industry. I mean, you really make such a big difference to advisors like myself. I'm a better advisor because of the work you do, so thank you so much.

Well, thank you, Sarah. I really appreciate that. Sarah's story about overcoming her personal tragedy is a perfect example of how it's not the events in our life that determine our life, but rather it's our response to those events. After getting run over by a car, she chose gratitude. And in a similar way, she teaches her clients to face their financial fears not with resignation, but with the right mindset. This ties in perfectly with a formula that we learned from Tim Kight, who's a previous Barron's Podcast guest. Now, Tim said, E R O. Event plus response equals outcome. The key takeaway is choose your response carefully. All right, that's all for today. Make sure you like and share this podcast through your favorite social platforms. And for more great podcasts, visit us at at barons.com/podcast.

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