Kate Murphy: How to Truly Hear and Understand Your Clients

This podcast is brought to you by Wells Fargo Advisors. Looking for a firm your clients can't outgrow? Wells Fargo Advisors offers financial advisors full balance sheet solutions with wealth planning, investment products, banking, and lending that meet the needs of affluent to ultra-high net worth clients. Build your practice your way and on your schedule with independent and employee model options designed to meet your needs today and tomorrow. Learn more at joinwfadvisors.com. When was the last time you felt that someone really listened to you? Hi everyone, I'm business coach Steve Sandusky for Barron's Advisor, The Way Forward Podcast. My guest today is Kate Murphy. Kate is a journalist who has written for The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, and The Economist, among others. She's also the author of the widely popular book You're not listening. In today's conversation, we explore an aspect of communication where there's very little training. Yes, we're all pretty good at asking discovery questions, but how good are we at listening to the response and adapting to it? And not just listening to what they say, but what they don't say. How can we physically and mentally prime ourselves so that we listen with our whole body and not just with our ears? How can we ask questions that don't rob people of their stories? How can we pick up the hidden meanings and nuances in tone? And how can we ensure that we don't become a conversational narcissist? There is an art and a science to listening, and there's no better person to discuss that with than Kate Murphy. I understand you are a commercial pilot. So how did you get interested in flying?

I was always fascinated with anything that flies, be it bumblebees or birds or any type of aircraft. I've always liked heights. I like perspective. I like to have that perspective of being up high. And then I have to say, both of my grandfathers were pilots. I didn't know either one of them. They both died long before I was born. So my mother consoles herself that it's in my genes. So it could be that, but I just, I love flying.

And I'm curious, so when you're flying, you're sitting in the captain's seat, you've got your headset on and you've gotta listen. And then in your day job, you're a journalist, you interview people. Is there a difference in the way that you listen when you're in the plane as the pilot versus when you're having a conversation with someone perhaps in an interview setting?

Gosh, I would say so, because in an interview situation, you're really trying to pick up on subtle cues. And generally I like to do interviews in person, so I'm trying to pick up on a lot of the nonverbals because the majority of the information that you get is nonverbal. Also, when you're doing a telephone interview, there's the just subtle intonations, the pauses. There's just a lot more you're trying to pick up, whereas in the cockpit, I'm just listening for my instructions. I'm not looking for whether or not the air traffic controller is having a good or bad day, or if he may be holding back information or anything like that. I just want to do exactly what he says and do it accurately and do it quickly.

And do you prepare yourself any differently to be a good listener, whether you're jumping in the cockpit or whether you're preparing to interview someone? Is there a different setup in terms of how you prepare yourself or maybe get to a neutral state?

They're very different in the sense that when you're in the cockpit, you can't help but have a lot of distractions. You're looking at your gauges, you're looking at everything else. You're trying to stay ahead of the airplane, where you're going, looking at the weather, all of that kind of stuff. Whereas the absolute opposite, when I interview somebody else, is I get rid of all distractions. I don't look at my computer. I have a dark computer. This is if I'm doing a telephone interview, but if I'm in front of the person, all of my belongings, I don't have anywhere near me, no phone, no nothing. I just want there to be like hardly any vacuum at all between me and the other person. I would want it to just be the two of us with as little distraction as possible.

And as you said that, I thought, oh my gosh, I've got my phone on my desk here. So I just put it right behind me so I can't even see my phone. So you've written this great book called You're Not Listening. And in the dedication of the book, it was just one sentence. And you wrote, for anyone who has misunderstood Or felt misunderstood. Is there a story behind that dedication?

I guess the story would be that in my life as a journalist and also my personal life, when you're talking to people, that a lot of the things that caused them trouble or pain in their life was because they misunderstood something or they felt they were misunderstood. And so that's why I wrote the book.

And as I read your book and I saw your dedication there, so just last night I was talking to my wife about I'm going to have this interview with you tomorrow. And so I asked her, I said, when was the last time that you felt really heard? And I don't want to share the answer publicly here because it's probably embarrassing to me. But, and then of course she turns the table on me as well. So let me ask you that. When would you say is the last time that you felt someone really listened to you? And then how did that make you feel?

I have a very dear friend who actually now lives in Philadelphia.. And I talked to her on the phone a couple of days ago, and she asks the best questions. Responding is really the measure of a good listener, and she always responds in a way that's so spot on that she picked up not only on what I said, but maybe what I didn't say that I meant. And she is in the book. She's the one who has the inner voice that's Spanky that I talk about in one of the chapters on the inner voice. She and I have been friends for a very long time. I would say that would be the last time. As far as how that made me feel, it makes you feel connected. It makes you feel not only heard but seen, and it makes you feel a part of the world and more specifically a part of that person's world.

You mentioned that this is someone that you've known for a long time, and she asks you questions that are spot on. Do you think that you have to know someone really well to be that good of a listener? Or you and I, we've never met before. Can we have a great conversation in the way that you and your friend Spanky were having a great conversation that have a long history, and you and I have no history?

Can we do that? Absolutely. I talk about this in the book, and there's something called the closeness communication bias. And when you know someone really well, you get a little lazy and you think, oh, I know what you're going to say. And it's not out of unkindness. It's not that you don't love the person. It's just you feel like you've heard it all at that point and you already know where they're going to go. It's what our brains do where we just try and jump ahead so we don't have to think because thinking, it's metabolically expensive. And it's just a human thing that we do. And so when you're very close to somebody, you tend to do that. The problem is that we are all changing every single day, every single moment. We're not the same person we were yesterday. You and I will be different after this conversation. And so if you stop listening to the people in your life, your wife or your children, because you feel like you already know stuff, communicating with them is just logistics instead of really checking in with a person. Really listening to where they are, you miss so much. And you get to the point where in relationships, you hear it all the time, I don't know you anymore, or you don't know me at all. Well, it's true if you stop listening.

And I think you're touching on this, and I'm gonna say a phrase here, and I hope we don't get eye rolls from folks listening to this, but the phrase is active listening. And I think to some extent that's become a bit of a cliché in the business world, but in your book—

Yes, I'm eye rolling.

Yeah. Okay. So in your book, you talk about Carl Rogers, the great psychologist, and he was the one who actually coined the phrase active listening. So tell me how Carl Rogers thought about active listening and how all of us can think about active listening in a way that is not a cliché.

I'm glad you made the distinction, because if people think about it in the Carl Rogers definition, it's very different than what you'll get from some of these online executive coaches or some people who do executive training the way they conceive of active listening, because it's very different. And the way Carl Rogers thought about active listening was everything in his mind went away, and he was focused so intently on what the person was saying, but also what the person wasn't saying, or what the person wanted to say, and picking up on every little frisson twitch that was going on within the other person to understand where they were emotionally, where they were coming from, what the what the energy was below what they were saying, what they may be holding back. And so he was just there with them. And that takes a degree of courage. You wouldn't think listening is something that is courageous, but if you're listening that intently, you don't know where the conversation is going to go and you're not in control. And I think that's why a lot of people don't stop talking because they're in control or they perceive they're in control. But the thing is, the more powerful position in communication is when you listen, because you learn when you listen. You're not learning anything when you're talking. That is how Carl Rogers thought about it, is to really take in every aspect and to be totally absorbed and let yourself go to listen to the other person.

You and I are having this conversation over Zoom. We've got the video off. In the context of active listening, where we have our voice and the tone of voice. What are some ways that you and I can be better listeners when we don't have the visual going on here?

It can also be an advantage in some instances, particularly when you're talking about really sensitive information, that people can be flooded or overwhelmed because in that Carl Rogers scenario, that's a lot coming at you. And so Sometimes when you are on the phone, you're able to just focus on part of it, and that's the verbal part of it, which is granted a minority of what you're getting, but you also get those parts that are involuntary, that are the pauses, the prosody of the speech. And also you can really get a sense of when people are uncomfortable, when they are comfortable, when they maybe are holding something back. I would also say that the questions that you ask can also help you, because if you're not quite sure because you can't see the person, to really up your game when it comes to the questioning and to not ask questions that lead to the answer that you want. So they have to be open-ended questions. I talk a lot in the book about what are good questions and what are bad questions, and there are questions that can really lead a person to an answer, and you don't realize you're doing it, but you are cutting the other person off or getting them to answer in a way that pleases you because we all want to be liked, or also that may not even be wanting to be liked, but just wanting to avoid conflict.

So let's dig into this here just a little bit about this idea of video on or off. When you and I were setting up this conversation and you said, hey, I'd prefer to do it with the video off, I thought, okay, let me talk to some of my advisor clients and I'm just going to ask them how do they think about video on or off. One of the advisors said if they're having a conversation with a potential new client and it's going to be a virtual, they always push to have Zoom and have the video on because they believe in seeing face to face. Obviously in person would be the best for that, they say. But if it's going to be virtual and it's a new potential client, video on. I had another advisor who said that if it's just like conveying information, then yeah, video off, that's totally fine. But if emotions are involved, then he wants to keep the camera on. And he also said, I want the video on for potential new clients. Another reason being, hey, we can do a screen share kind of thing as well. So I thought I heard you say here just a minute ago that when emotions are involved, sometimes it's best to not have the video on because people are self-conscious perhaps, or any thoughts on some of the comments that these couple of advisors had said?

I have to say that I would disagree with them. Very much. And if I were their client, I wouldn't want to deal with them that way. I agree with them in the sense that it's better to be in person. And if you can't be in person, then do it on the phone. And the reason why I say this is that the problem with the way the technology is right now could change. But on Zoom or any other video platform that's out there right now, the video images are digitally encoded and decoded altered, adjusted, patched, synthesized, and it introduces all kinds of artifacts. Some of them you notice, some of them you don't. Like the things that you may notice is the blocking, the freezing, the blurring, maybe some jerkiness, some out-of-sync audio. Now, a lot of these disruptions are below the level of conscious awareness, and they totally confound your perception and scramble social cues, particularly the subtle social cues, which actually are the majority of the information you get in those face-to-face encounters. So your brain starts to strain to fill in those gaps. Again, this is subconscious. So I applaud these financial advisors for their intent, but I don't think they realize what's happening between them and the other person. And their brain strains to fill in these gaps that's because of these artifacts of the way the video is digitally encoded. And they're trying to make sense of all this disorder. And it makes us feel vaguely disturbed and uneasy. And tired, this we call Zoom fatigue, without quite knowing why. And I'm not saying it's totally unsuccessful and you're not gonna get a client that way. And I totally agree with the guy or gal who said that if you might wanna do screen sharing, that's great. But if you're doing it because you want to establish some type of connection with the other person and read social cues, you're fooling yourself. And also the thing that we all have to be honest about with the Zoom is most of the time you're looking at yourself, dude. You're looking that you look okay and part of you is going, oh my God, do I really look like that? Or you're looking in the background like saying, God, that is a really ugly painting back there. Or what are the books on their bookshelf or whatever? You're distracted by what's going on around them. So then you really aren't connecting with the other person. I do think video has its place, but I want to be clear about what the disadvantages are. Another thing, it's not like you're making eye contact. That is one of the most important things when you are having a face-to-face conversation because there are all these things like pupil dilation. Gaze is a very powerful thing. And when you are on video, you're not meeting each other's gaze. And depending on the angle of where you've got your camera, You can look haughty, you can look subservient, you can look shifty, looking to the side. There are all these things. And not to mention, when we go into lighting and shading, and so you can look like some Boris Karloff figure or something like that. Anyway, I think I've gone on long enough about why it may not be the best idea. But I do want to say I'm not a technophobe, and I love all my gadgets, and I love everything that they can do. And I love being able to, you know, see somebody, a friend's new baby that they may be showing me and stuff like that. But if I want to have a meaningful conversation, there's no way we're going to be on a video call. We're going to call each other on the phone. And there is also something about somebody's voice right next to your ear. There's an intimacy to that that I think a lot of people are missing too when they say, let's do video.

I totally hear you when you talk about the intimacy of the audio. You and I were having just the audio conversation here, and I am so focused on the sound. I'm not worrying about, am I looking in the camera or am I looking at the screen or am I looking at the person's background? I'm just so focused. And again, to your point, one of my clients said that they give their existing clients the option when scheduling a review appointment to schedule either a Zoom call or schedule a phone review. Do you want to take a guess what percent of the clients choose the phone versus doing the Zoom call?

I don't know. It depends if they've never seen the guy before.

These would be existing clients. So yeah, I'd say they've seen the person before. Yeah. Yeah.

You know, I think just because of the social contagion of Zoom at this point, I think the majority of people say they want Zoom, but I don't know. You tell me.

It's exactly the opposite. So he's, he, yeah, he said that like 80% of the client review appointments are the phone and not Zoom. So I think that really goes to your point about a lot of people might prefer the phone because they don't have to worry about all the extra stuff that you were just talking about here that could get in the way and distract the conversation. So I thought that was an interesting data point that when clients choose, 80%, at least in his case, this is just one data point. That, that they prefer to do it over the phone. So anyway, I think lots of food for thought.

Yeah, I find that more and more that people are telling me that their clients are there during their company, people are saying, oh my God, can we turn that camera off? Yeah.

Yeah. So getting back to the active listening part here for just a second, I recently participated in a sound bath experience, and this was at a yoga studio. We're laying on our mats, we've got soft music, we've got candles, the whole 9 yards thing. We're under a blanket and there's a gong and there's bowls. And so for this period of time, I was 100% focused on listening on the sound. And it was really fascinating because the sound just literally vibrated throughout my whole body. So I'd love for you to share what you've learned in terms of listening being a whole body, a full body experience? And how do we get ourselves into that state when we're going into a potentially emotional conversation? How do we prime ourselves, so to speak, to be ready for that?

Well, I think there's just a real sense of openness. But I love that you were talking about how it's a whole body experience because it is. It vibrates. Our very bones when we listen to somebody. It is resonating through our entire body. And not only that, we have resonance in our neural patterns. I talk about that in part of the book, is that when they've done studies and they've hooked up listeners and speakers to fMRI machines, and when their neural patterns, their brain waves sync up, that's when there's communication, that's when there's understanding. So we talk about being on the wavelength or being on the same wavelength or being totally in sync. It's true. You can see visually measurable transfer of memories, of thoughts. And so when you are in getting in a conversation with somebody, you have to remember that it is, it's your brainwaves are syncing up, your bones are vibrating. It is a whole body experience. And so really being open to that and being focused and not looking at your phone and not thinking in your head of what you're going to say next. It's to allow, to receive. I think I'm from the American South, so I think of it in part as hospitality, but it's just a hospitality of your being of I'm open to receive. I am the receiver now. And so to have that in your mind that I'm going to let this wash over me. And it doesn't mean you're necessarily at the end of the conversation, you're going to love this person, they're going to be your best friend, you're going to agree with everything they said. Not at all. But you're taking it in. It's gathering intelligence. It's informing your worldview. And that's what leads to more creative ideas, different ways of thinking about things. And people think that they can't listen to somebody who they don't agree with. And that's actually one of the best people you should talk to. Or not the best, but you should listen to all of these views because it makes you more nimble in your thinking and it makes you a better communicator in the end. That's actually another point. To be a good speaker, to really be clear, to really be somebody who's compelling and who is convincing, you have to know your audience. And so speaking is really front-loaded with listening. You can't know the other person's sensitivities, their level of understanding, or how to craft your message if you haven't listened to the person.

Let's just go with that here for a minute in terms of the speaking versus the listening. And where does the meaning reside in the conversation? And what I mean by that is if I'm speaking and I'm saying something and I drone on for 2 minutes and you're trying to listen to me, probably probably going to dip in and out of that conversation because, you know, for you— and I'm just saying you generically here— to pay close attention for 2 straight minutes if I'm droning on, probably going to be kind of hard to do for a lot of people. But what's happening, I'm guessing— tell me if any research bears this out— is that what I'm saying, you're going to interpret through your past experiences and memories And then when you get ready to speak, you may not necessarily be speaking based on what I actually said, but more about what you remember about what I said, which has been filtered through your past experiences and memories. Does that make any sense?

I think that would be true even if they didn't drone on for 2 minutes. We see things and hear things based on our experience. And so that's why I think trying to really understand where the person's coming from and those questions to make sure you've got it and that you haven't filtered them in a way. And the response is really the most important part of the conversation, I think, when you're actually playing off the other person. And so that's what— to be real careful of that shift response when you respond to the person. If you're shifting it to yourself, and that it's shifted to your own experience when you are responding, then that tells you that you're really just looking at this through your own filter instead of diving in, maybe trying to ask more about the other person's experience. There was a sociologist at Boston University, Professor Derber, who ran this really great study, and he listened to hundreds of dinner table conversations and recorded them all. And he found out that just incredible majority of the responses were shift responses versus support responses. And shift responses are when someone says something, you say something that is more self-referential, that has to do with you. I give an example of the book. If somebody were to say to you, my dog got out and it took me 3 days to find him. A shift response would be, oh, I have a rescue dog and that dog is always getting out and blah, blah, blah, blah about your rescue dog. Whereas a support response would be, oh my God, 3 days? How did you finally find your dog? Where you're getting more of the story and trying to understand it. You're playing off what they said instead of shifting to your worldview and presenting something about you, which of course ends any possibility of connection at that point. Any possibility of empathy with what the other person was going through.

And as I read that in the book, I thought, oh my gosh, I am so guilty of that. And then once you become aware of it, you see how often that happens in conversation with other people where they're shifting it back to them being self-referential, as you mentioned there. And so now I'm, I'm trying to be much more cognizant of that. And related to that, so the other day I was on LinkedIn I saw somebody post a message about how they had broken their wrist while ice skating about a month earlier, and they had a, in the post they had a picture, the x-ray of their arm with this long rod from like their forearm into their hand. And of course, what do I do? I immediately go back to when I broke my ankle on a mountain climbing trip and I had an x-ray taken and it's got a metal rod there with a bunch of pins in it.. And my immediate reaction was, oh, I'm going to post my picture and tell my little story. And all of a sudden, Kate Murphy's voice pops up in my head and says, Steve, you're making a critical mistake here. You're shifting the conversation back to you. And so I did not post that.

I do hasten to add that it's not that you can't ever share things that you have in common with other people. But that you miss a lot when you jump in to do that really quickly, too quickly, which most people do. The subtitle of my book is What You're Missing and Why It Matters. If your listeners come away with anything from this conversation, I would really love for them to have an awareness or to be thoughtful about how they may be setting up situations where they're missing a lot. And when you don't ask those questions, when you don't show interest in what people are saying, they're not going to volunteer anything. They're not going to tell you that interesting nugget that brings about not only connection but maybe an idea, an opportunity, something that will add so much to your life. And we spend so much of our time trying to impress other people or trying to show something about us, and only natural. We all want to be liked, and we want to, you know, present ourselves in a way that people will connect with us and that we'll be liked. But as a result, we often kind of start grandstanding, and that keeps anyone else from really communicating with us. Not to mention walking around with earbuds or looking at our phones and all of these opportunities where someone could come up and talk to you. You're just keeping them away from you. You're in this bubble where people feel like they can't approach, and there's so much that you miss that you aren't hearing, that you aren't seeing.

I think what I'm hearing from you is the importance of being curious. And when someone does share something with you, to be curious about that, but not in a fake, oh, I heard on a podcast that I'm supposed to ask follow-up questions based on what you just said, but just a genuine curiosity and heartfelt desire to understand at a deeper level what that person is saying. And if you approach it with that open heart, let's say, that you're gonna be able to make a deeper, richer connection faster and have a much more enjoyable conversation, a much more enjoyable relationship, but it's that intention that you go into it with, I think I hear you saying, is certainly important.

Absolutely. To cultivate your curiosity, you won't really have to worry about the quality of your questions because people are fascinating. I can tell you as a journalist who's interviewed thousands and thousands and thousands of people at this point, everybody is interesting if you ask the right questions and if you're curious and if you're open. And again, it's that openness, that hospitality where people will tell you things that you just cannot believe that are so interesting that they just never would have volunteered before. Maybe they didn't think you would be interested because of the way you were acting or because you're only talking about yourself. So you don't learn that the guy has the biggest yo-yo collection in North America. Where do you put it? Where do they come from? How did you start? Just, I mean, that, that's a little thing, but they're also just other things that so enrich your life.

Let's shift again here. And one of the things you talked about in your book is how improvisational comedy can help in listening skills. So tell me a little bit about that and any experience that you've had in that area.

Well, as part of my research for the book, I went to Second City and took improv classes, which anyone who knows me knows that is not something I wanted to do. I don't like stuff like that. But I did end up learning so much and actually liking it. And improv is so great because you cannot rely on a script. And so many of us have our scripts. It's when people say, what do you do? You know what, tell me about you. You've got your script already worked out of what you say to people. You've got your go-to stories that are scripts that you tell people. And as a result, you are not being improvisational in your conversations. And what improv does is it teaches you to not rely on a script and also to pay very close attention to your scene partner, because otherwise it won't make sense, it won't be funny, it won't be good at all. And one of the exercises, one of the first exercises they had us do is, it's called storytelling. And what happens is the guy who, it was a guy in this instance who was running the, the improv class. He started a story, just a line like, "A rabbit ran through the woods." Let's just start with that. And then he points to somebody in the class, and they're supposed to continue the story. And he can point to anyone at random, so you don't know when your turn is coming. You have to pick up on what the person said before you. So in your mind, a lot of times you're trying to think of what clever thing can I say, and you're thinking about how you want the story to go and what would be the great thing you could say. But the thing is, by the time he points to you, the story's gone in a totally different direction. So you have to give up any thoughts of what you think you might want to say or what you might want to have happen and just pay attention to what the person said before you. And that means you're really riveted on the conversation. But I also think there's something about humor that I don't think I quite appreciated until I took that class because The people don't really have a fixed sense of humor, but they have an ability to sense humor. And that is really based on how well you listen. Because the things that are funniest, that make people interesting and fun to listen to, is their ability to draw back on something that was said earlier that connects with what's happening now, and that makes everybody really appreciate what they said.

So what would you say is something that you took away from that class that you are continuing to use either in your work or just in personal conversations?

I can't say I wasn't a good listener before I went there and I wasn't already doing a lot of the stuff I learned, but it was the way that it was laid out and made it more apparent. Before, it was more instinct. And also just experience. But I think I was more aware of the dynamics after taking the improv class. I think this is one thing that did change for me, is I was very aware when people started laughing that really what was happening was because somebody had really heard what the person had said earlier in the conversation and then brought it back around with a funny twist. And that is really the best kind, the most appreciated kind of humor. And I don't think I realized that before I took the improv class. It's something that you may do instinctively, particularly if you're a really funny person or people that people find amusing. But to know that was the dynamics of it. Bob Mankoff, who was the cartoon editor of The New Yorker for many years and who's taught comedy at a couple of universities on the East Coast, he and I were talking about that. Subsequent to me taking the improv class. And he was saying that is— that's the classic comedy bit, is recalling, calling back to something that was said earlier.

And I have not taken an improv class, but I did have the good fortune of doing a Barron's podcast back in 2021 with Kelly Leonard. And Kelly is a longtime executive and producer at Second City in Chicago. And one of the things that we did on our call was he mentioned an exercise that they call the last word exercise. And maybe you did this in your training where when I finish speaking, whatever is the last word that I finish with, you have to start your response with my last word. So I said to Kelly, I said, why don't we just do this for a few minutes and let's just see how we could do this? And so we went on for 5 to 7 minutes and we were starting each of our responses with the last word that the person said. And it was pretty fun. Another area I want to touch on here is in your May 2020 New York Times article, you had some comments in there about something that you had heard from Parker Palmer, and you talked about this idea of third things and how that is connecting in a relationship. I'd love for you to share a little bit more about what third things are and what that relationship is to listening.

Third things are when you bring something into the conversation or have the conversation based on this third thing. And it could be a book, it could be a television show, it could be a historical figure. It really could be anything that, that you all have in common or maybe just know of. And to relate how you relate to one another, how you relate to this third thing. And how that really prompts this listening opportunity between people where they can really connect with one another through connecting to this third thing. Even if they connect to the third thing in a very different way, you learn so much in the other person's interpretation. That's why people really get into book clubs or these other third things, whether it's a running club or something where you get people together and there's this this third thing that they relate over, it provides this opportunity to get to know other things about the other person through the third thing.

A way to apply that would be, let's say you're at a party and you're trying to introduce yourself to someone. And maybe one way to do that is, quote, a third thing, which is something like, let's say Mary is the host of the party. You might say something like, how did you know Mary? Or how did you get connected with Mary? And so you're taking it away from you, you're taking away from the person you're trying to be introduced to, and now you've introduced Mary, this quote, third thing. Would that be an example of third thing, so to speak?

I think that's a perfect example. And another thing is I notice things about the person. And so ask them about that third thing. Say it's a piece of jewelry. Tell me about that. Does that have a story? Because every piece of jewelry tends to have a story. And I love how you talked about at a party because So often people fall into this interrogation mode at parties when they meet someone. So what do you do? Where do you live? Do you have kids? All of those questions which aren't really questions. You're really trying to rank the person in the social hierarchy. It's a judging thing. And even though you're not consciously trying to do that, of course everybody does it, but it does make the person pull back. They go into their script that I was talking about. And so you're not going to have a meaningful conversation. You're not going to really connect because instead you're both giving each other your elevator pitch, so to speak, about yourself. And it is something that's off-putting, even though it's something so many people do.

All right, Kate, well, I could talk to you for hours here, but I would like to finish up with 2 more things. And the first one is, that in your book you mentioned that you are a quote collector. So I would love it if there's a quote, a poem, or something that you've written down that you've collected here that is tossing about in your mind these days.

You know, actually, I was just thinking about this quote earlier today. This one actually comes from a famous person. A third thing, shall we say? And it does relate to listening, and it's It's from F. Scott Fitzgerald, and he said that a sign of a truly first-rate mind is the ability to hold two opposing views in your mind and still be able to function. And to be able to listen well is to be able to hold conflicting views. And so many people only want to listen to the things that they agree with. Particularly these days, of canceling ideas that they don't agree with. And back to what we've been talking about, this sense of openness, this hospitality. Again, listening to somebody does not mean that you agree with them. It's that you're curious and that you realize that understanding is not binary. It's not you have it or you don't. It's that it can always be improved upon. And so to be able to be comfortable with holding opposing views in your mind, it doesn't commit you to anything. It just allows you to think, it allows you to grow, and it allows you to again gather intelligence and expand your connection to the world.

And I love that quote, and I think it is so appropriate for the times that we live in. And so that could be a whole nother conversation too. Absolutely. But let me finish here with— I'm going to go out on a limb here and risk total embarrassment. So we're talking about listening. I'm a podcast host. Hopefully I have some ability to listen, but I would love for you to give me some honest feedback. And don't hold back here in terms of tell me maybe what I did well, if I did anything well in our conversation today from a listening standpoint, and what advice would you have for me in terms of how I could improve to become a better listener?

Oh my gosh. I'm so thinking about me listening that I wouldn't think to critique your listening. I don't know. I think you did a great job all the way through. I appreciate it. First, it's clear that you read the book, which not always happens in these interviews. So you did have the third thing that we could talk about. And I also love how you brought in the listening that you've done with other people and how that influenced the questions that you asked me, which is also consummate listening. And I also love that you shared stories about yourself, cuz that's another way. That's almost a third thing in and of itself of connecting about things that were embarrassing that we all do. Boy, I wish I could think of something negative to give you, but I really can't think of anything negative.

Well, I appreciate that. So how about the whole shifting and supporting? That's something that I've really been cognizant of here recently. And I know in our conversation here today, I would shift the conversation back to a story, let's say, that I want to tell or mentioning, you know, my experience with Kelly Leonard at Second City. So, and you had mentioned there is a balance or a tension between, hey, I want to support you, I want to continue to follow up and ask more questions of you. But also I wanna share some of me too, because I hope that you're interested in learning about me as well. And that's what makes a conversation, what makes meaning between two people. So do you think I had the right balance between supporting and following up with you versus shifting and telling a story I wanted to tell?

I really think you did, but I also would hasten to add that, that this isn't a real conversation. You know, it really isn't. And so you have license to direct change because you've got stuff to cover. And I understand that because if you and I would still be talking about Bitcoin, probably, which we did before we hit the record button. Exactly. So, you know, this is a bit artificial, though I've enjoyed it. And you've made it very conversational, which is the art of a good podcaster, to be able to balance those two aspects of it being conversational but also being an interview because, you know, you're trying to help your listeners learn something. And so they wouldn't necessarily learn as much if you and I went off on the yoga thing. I would have like, the bowls? What is that? Tell me about the bowls. I mean, we would have been on that for like 10 minutes. So you can't do that. And also just even in real conversation, particularly with, you know, your listeners, they're thinking about being a better listener professionally. There's only so many hours in the day. So you do need to shift. Sometimes to go where you need to go. But also, to your point, conversation is a dance, and if only one person's dancing the entire time, then it's not a dance. You know, that's somebody doing a solo. So if you're the person who's trying to be a good listener and you find all you're doing is listening, then you're speaking with a conversational narcissist and no connection is happening. So it needs to be this back and forth, this playing off one another. The talking, the listening, the talking, the listening, and playing. But the important part is to feed off of the other person's rhythm, and which is exactly what you did. The stories that you told, everything that, you know, that was about you related to what I had just said for the most part. And when it didn't, it was because you needed to move on with the interview. So I really cannot find anything to find fault with. I really can't. And believe me, I'm not just being nice to you there. I have been on so many interviews where it was not this way. So I really, my hat is off.

Well, I appreciate that very much. And I loved where you said conversation is a dance and I could just really visualize that. And it's the back and forth. And if just one person is dancing and just one person is leading the whole time, it's not gonna be a great dance at all. So I, I appreciate that. So Kate, this has been terrific. What is the best way for folks to stay in touch with you and connect with you?

Probably best way is through my website.

And your website is at journalistkatemurphy.com. Is that the one you want them to go to? Yes, sir. Okay. Yeah. And so great book, You're Not Listening. Definitely encourage everyone listening to get a copy of it. And then also you write for a lot of different publications. What are some of the key publications that you write for these days?

Um, mainly the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal at the moment. I'm working on another book right now, so I've scaled back a bit on that. I'm also doing a lot of flying, so that's getting in the way too. That's getting in the way too. But mostly the Times and the Journal.

Okay. And can you share what the new book is, or is that still under—

Oh, absolutely not.

Well, I had to ask.

I feel like my best friends didn't even know about the last book, so I'm one of those who needs to keep things close until they're done.

Okay. I will look forward to that, and hopefully we'll get a chance to reconnect and talk about the new book. So again, Kate, I really appreciate you being on the show and congratulations on a great book.

Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it.

There were so many important insights in this conversation and in Kate's book, and the one that I wanna call out is this idea of supporting and shifting. I see this all the time, and I am definitely guilty of it too. But as a result of talking to Kate, I'm very aware of when I'm becoming a conversational narcissist, and I try and step back and put my curiosity hat back on. And when I stop shifting the conversation back to me and how wonderful I am and refocus it back on the person in front of me and become curious, that's when the magic of conversation happens. All right, that's all for today. Make sure you like and share this podcast through your favorite social platforms. And for more great podcasts, visit us at barons.com/podcast. Take care and be safe. This podcast was brought to you by Wells Fargo Advisors. Looking for a firm your clients can't outgrow? Wells Fargo Advisors offers financial advisors full balance sheet solutions with wealth planning, investment products, banking, and lending that meet the needs of affluent to ultra-high net worth clients. Build your practice your way and on your schedule with independent and employee model options designed to meet your needs today and tomorrow. Learn more at joinwfadvisors.com.