Leslie Zane: The New Rules of Persuasion for Financial Advisors

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We've all heard the saying, you never get a second chance to make a first impression. But what if our first impressions, and indeed all of our decisions, are made not by our conscious mind, but by our unconscious instincts? Hi everyone, I'm business coach Steve Sandusky for Barron's Advisor, The Way Forward podcast. My guest today is Leslie Zane, Leslie is the founder of Triggers, which is the first brand consultancy built on the premise that instinct rather than conscious thought is what guides brand decisions. She's also the author of the new book, The Power of Instinct: The New Rules of Persuasion in Business and Life. In today's conversation, Leslie challenges traditional marketing wisdom and reveals how understanding the unconscious mind can revolutionize the ways we approach business growth, brand building, and client relationships. So if you're looking to accelerate your practice's growth and build a more compelling brand, you won't want to miss Leslie's insights and practical strategies for tapping into the power of instinct. With that, here's my conversation with Leslie Zane. I want to go back a few years. Let's say go back to your childhood. Can you think of a situation that occurred back then that may have some connection to money?

Money. I would have to say that my earliest memory is being 5 years old. My mom and I were in a store, and it was a, a nice little candy and card shop on the corner. And I picked up a toy and asked my mom if I could have the toy. And she turned to me and she said, "Leslie, is today your birthday? Is today the holidays?" And I said, "No." And she said, "Then no toy." And those were the values that I was brought up with, which is that you really only get something special like that on your birthday. And the rest of the time you're going to have to work for it yourself.

That's certainly one interpretation of that. But let me tie this back to a new book that you have that just came out here called The Power of Instinct. The New Rules of Persuasion in Business and Life. Knowing what you know today about persuasion, if you go back in time, is there something that you could have used, some persuasion technique that you know about today that maybe you could have persuaded your mom to let you get that toy?

Oh, there's a whole bunch of things that I could have done if I knew what I knew today. But I'm going to surprise you by saying I actually don't believe in persuasion at all. I don't think you can persuade anybody of anything. And I say this to you as somebody who has spent her entire life on persuasion, trying to get brands to move from one to another. So the brain has two mechanisms. One is conscious and the other is unconscious. And we now know that the majority of our decisions are actually made with the unconscious mind, not the conscious mind. But when you think about how persuasion works or the techniques of persuasion, they are all going against that conscious mind. And it doesn't work for two reasons. One, the conscious mind is stubborn. It's set in its ways. It's resistant to change. It doesn't wanna do what you tell it to do. So that's the first problem. The second problem is it turns out that only about 5% of our decisions are made consciously anyway. So we're basically expending 100% of our energy and effort and resources on only 5% of the decisions that people make. That's a waste of time. No wonder getting organic growth is so hard. So what we advocate is really focusing on the instinctive mind, which is making the majority of your decisions anyway. What the conscious mind does is it rationalizes after the fact the decision that you have made instinctively. But the instinct is really what is driving it. And there's a, just a whole web of connections in your mind, in your memories. We'll talk more about what that looks like in a moment, but that is the command control center of choice, of instinctive choice. And it drives every decision that you make from how many times you brush your teeth to which brands you buy in the store and which financial advisors you choose to manage your money.

So where does the instinct come from then?

The instinct is driven by a large physical web of connections that is located in your unconscious mind. Memories drive choice and brands. And I think of everything as a brand. You're a brand. I'm a brand. This podcast is a brand. My upcoming book is a brand. My company Triggers is a brand, and each of the financial advisors in your audience is also a brand. A brand is known by the associations it keeps. That's a really important point. So the way it works is this. Think of it like a brand is a seed. I plant the seed in your mind, and as I add more positive associations to that seedling. Think of that as the soil, the water, and the sun. It's nutrients that it needs to grow. The seed turns into a seedling. It puts down roots. It turns into a little plant. Then little by little, if you're lucky and you do this right, your seed will grow into a full-grown tree. The moment your tree is bigger, has a larger canopy, a bigger root system in people's brains, than your competition, you are going to get a switch. They are going to move from either not having a financial advisor to having a financial advisor, or from one financial advisor to another.

Then how do I get more of these connections in a person's mind? I think a lot of people would say, that's why I do advertising, or that's why I do podcasts, or that's why I write books, because it's getting my message out there. It's starting to plant all these seeds out there to make all these connections. Is that not the way to think about it?

That's definitely the way to think about it. But the way you just described it was through the tactics that we're going to use, all of which are good tactics. What I'm gonna focus on for you is what the branches actually, the branches of the tree need to stand for in the mind in order to get a switch. So I need more connections. I need multidimensional connections. They need to be positive in nature, not negative associations. And I need to be distinctive. So when we think about brand health, a brand has to have 3 things to be healthy. It needs to be salient, which means it needs to have large, a large physical presence in the mind. Almost think of this like a game of Monopoly. Whoever owns the most physical real estate in the mind wins. Second, you need to have a higher ratio of positive to negative associations. And if somebody knows your brand and isn't using it, they absolutely have negative associations that we need to eliminate. And we'll talk more about how we can do that in a moment. And then third, you need to have distinctiveness. So 3 things: large, positive, distinctive. That's what makes a healthy brand.

And is there any difference in trying to build this if you're trying to build it on a product that's something physical and tangible versus a service like a financial advisor's giving financial advice? Is there any difference in how we go about trying to imprint what the branches in the tree stand for?

There's really no difference. We have worked at this point on 95 categories. This approach is completely category agnostic. We've done it for political candidates. We've done it for organizations. We've done it for social movements. We've done it for causes. It's really all the same. I have to grow that seed. It needs to have more connections in the mind. Those connections need to be multidimensional, and we can talk about the nature of those, and we can even talk about specifically in your category, business or financial services, what are some of the important ones. But it really works the same way because humans are humans, and the decision-making process is the decision-making process. Essentially, what we need to do is we need to grow the brand from a seed into a full-grown tree. Because you can't have more market share if you first don't increase your mindshare. One is directly linked to the other.

Let's take an example that we're all familiar with. Volvo cars. So the classic is that when someone says, oh, there's a Volvo, they think safety. If I'm a mom and a dad and I've got kids now, I'm gonna buy a Volvo because they're safe cars. So I've got like this one thing in my mind about a Volvo car. Now, I'm going to guess you're going to say something different there, that Volvo, maybe they're known for more than just that. But they've been pretty successful, and people tend to think of safety when they think of Volvo. Am I thinking about that right, or what would your thoughts be about a company like that?

So I would say that if Volvo only stood for safety, that it would be out of business by now. When we look at the brand connectome, and I'll define that in a moment. The brand connectome for a brand like Volvo, it has a multitude of dimensions. It has a multitude of branches and associations beyond safety. Safety might have been what it got started with, but in order to be physically present in the mind, it needs to have hundreds of connections. And so it needs to have safety. It also needs to look good. It also needs to have a good engine. It needs to be advanced. It needs to have advanced technology. So there's many more dimensions. And if it didn't have all of those, then again, it would be gone. It would be invisible in the mind. And that is completely counterintuitive to what you are taught in marketing or advertising. We're in business school today. You are taught what you just said. Which is that a brand should only stand for one thing. The problem is if a brand only stands for one thing in the mind, it's gonna be practically invisible in the mind. It's gonna have one branch or one root, and it needs to have many in order to get that span, to get that, um, physical presence and salience in the mind. Cuz the more salient the brand is in the mind, the more it's your instinctive go-to choice. It takes over all of the terrain in your brain.

So I'm old enough to remember Al Ries and Jack Trout, and they had their famous book called Positioning. And so how do you think about this concept of positioning your product or your service in the marketplace? So in the financial profession, we like to talk about the importance of having a niche. So you've got like a specific target market, you've got this ideal client persona, and you're basically going to be all things to that particular niche. So you're positioning yourself as the expert in this area for these types of clients. Does that make sense? Do you think about that differently in terms of the work that you've done?

So Trout and Rees were onto something. I remember that too, all the way back in the '80s. It was the first positioning, brand positioning book that I ever read. And what they were right about is that brands do stake out a place in people's minds. What they were wrong about is that it's only one thing, because we now know how the brain works, that it's made up of these neural pathways, and brands have physicality. And I would say in many ways they were more right than they knew, because it truly is that brands exist in the mind, but they exist differently. They exist as a web of connections, and the brand connectome is that thing. So if I can take a moment to just describe what that is, the brand connectome is the cumulative memories that have gotten glued to a brand in people's minds over time. And depending on how long the brand is around, it might go all the way back to childhood. So it's not just the advertising that a brand does or its packaging. That's looking at marketing in an extremely limited way. Almost making the brand seem like this isolated thing. Because I told you, a brand is known by the associations it keeps. So whether my mother used this brand, or whether my father used that financial advisor, all of these things are in the mind, and the brain connects its own dots about your brand, sometimes in ways that you may not like. But you really need to understand the nature of the positive and negative associations of your brand. Negative associations hold back growth in every single brand that we've ever worked on for the past 25 years. And we do a lot of work obviously with large legacy brands, the Fortune 500 companies. Over time, brands tend to accumulate some negative associations and they accumulate like a virus in the mind. The company's not even aware they're, they're collecting. Because they're not monitoring that unconscious mind. But you can almost think of this as a predictor of your future growth. If you look inside the minds of the growth target, the people you don't yet have, your prospective customers, and they have negative associations, I don't care if you spend $100 million on advertising, they're not coming over. They're gonna have a brick wall up about your product or service. So it's really important to understand what your negative associations are in the mind of your growth target and to take those down because growth has to come from somewhere. It's gonna come mainly from your growth target, not from the people that you already have.

So if I'm a Fortune 500 company, I'm gonna have those hundreds of millions of dollars of, uh, a budget that I can start, uh, planting these associations in a person's mind, this brand connectome that you're talking about. But what if I'm a $10 million revenue business, how can I go about creating a lot of these associations and really expanding this brand connectome into the minds of my target, uh, audience here, my target clients? How do I do that on a smaller budget?

It's a great question. And again, it works the same way. With whatever budget you have, you are going to need to create more connections. We'll talk about one of the key ways that we do that, which with a device called triggers and growth triggers specifically, but you can You can create connections many different ways. First of all, one of the things that I think a lot of business people do, and maybe this is something that holds them back, is they only think of the relationship as a professional relationship. But if you have a personal relationship as well as a professional relationship with your customer, now you already just grew two branches, two new roots that you didn't have before. So there's many ways to create connections with people and to have more, a diversity of more different ways to connect with them. You can also leverage other people's platforms who, where they have large audiences and be seen over there. So the more touchpoints that people have to find you and to be exposed to you, the more you're gonna be integral to their lives.

So a few moments ago you mentioned that there were 3 areas here. One was salient, and we talked about that. You mentioned that we need to have more positive associations than negative associations, and I think we touched on that as well. But then you also talked about distinctiveness. So tell me a little bit about, in your work, how do we create distinctiveness?

So the old rule of marketing, and you'll notice that I'm not a big fan of traditional marketing because I lived it and I learned it. I learned it at Harvard Business School. I learned it at P&G, and I found that a lot of it didn't work. And so in my book, each chapter is a rule for taking down the old rule, displacing it with a new rule that works better for the instinctive mind. And this one is a perfect example. So when you become a marketer, you are trained on this idea of uniqueness is number one. You wanna be the purple cow. You wanna stand out, differentiate, or die. The problem with that is that the human brain is hardwired to connect with the familiar, not with the unique. So wait a minute, we are telling people to be as unique as possible, create something from Mars that's actually gonna alienate them, that's gonna push them a— away. That's why it's so hard to launch new products. 9 out of 10 new products fail cuz people don't want the new. They, they go to the things that are familiar. So the new rule, which I talk at length about in my book, is distinctiveness is the new uniqueness. Familiarity is actually more powerful than uniqueness, which is the opposite of what you're taught. And distinctiveness is best of all. Distinctiveness lets you put a little creative twist on something familiar and make it your own, make it distinctive to your brand. A perfect example of this is the Snow Cap Mountain in the bottled water category. The Snow Cap Mountain has all these positive associations: pure, pristine, water from the glaciers, eco-friendly, natural, cold, fresh, clean, all these good things. Now, there are several Snow Cap Mountains in the bottled water category, and the traditional thinking would be stay away from that. It's a cliché. It's boring. Been there, done that. The fact is that if you take that snow-capped mountain and you render it in a way that's distinctive to your brand, like Aquafina bottled water did with a little abstract design and an orange sunset, suddenly it becomes distinctive to Aquafina. And now they're riding all those positive neural pathways, all those positive associations that snow-capped mountains bring. So instead of throwing out these triggers, these snow-capped mountains and things like that, you actually wanna find the ones that work for you. And I would argue there are probably a bunch of category triggers and brand triggers that people can use in the financial advisory business that maybe they haven't considered.

This is really fascinating because we do talk a lot about being unique, and I love your nuance here. And I think you said distinctiveness is the new uniqueness. And since we're talking about 1980s advertising, I'm gonna go back to probably the 1970s and remembering 7Up. And one of their taglines, one of their commercials back then was 7Up, the un-cola. And so they were trying to be distinct in the sense that we're not Pepsi and we're not Coke. We're the uncola. We're 7Up. We're lemon lime. And yet it's still familiar because they're still in the soft drink category, but they're being distinct about it in that we're the lemon lime, we're not the cola version. So would that be an example of sort of this making this distinction between distinctiveness is the new uniqueness?

You're already an expert. That's exactly right. Cola is the familiar. Un is the creative twist on the familiar. And now suddenly people know what you're talking about. You're not creating this foreign thing where they go, what the heck is that? I don't even know what to do with that. So they're placing it in the COLA category, but they're saying, yes, we're the clear one. We're the one that doesn't have maybe some of those negative things that you might associate with COLAs, the innocent COLA, so to speak.

So let's brainstorm in real time here for financial advisors. One of the most important things that we have to do is we have to create trust because no client is going to give us their money for us to manage. No client is going to take our advice if we're talking about estate planning or tax planning or any of the other comprehensive planning things that take place unless they trust us. So as we talk about this idea of being distinctive versus unique, another big complaint about the profession is, hey, we all look alike. We all basically do the same thing. We're all trying to build trust. We all give advice, we all manage money, that sort of thing. So in your work, how would you think about a financial advisor? What are some triggers or what are some things that they can do to become more distinct while also understanding that we can never get away from the importance of building trust with our clients?

Great question. The first thing I'm going to say to you is whatever you do, Never tell anybody to trust you. That is a recipe for disaster. That is the overt approach. That is the conscious approach. What we wanna do is build trust because trust is an outcome, not an input. So we need to find the levers of the mind that are going to create trust as a result. And there are a couple things that I would be thinking about. The first thing that I would think about is your expertise. You need to communicate, convey that you have a great deal of expertise. And expertise is something that a lot of marketers don't spend enough time thinking about. They think about and they communicate the benefit. Benefit's important too, but the benefit doesn't have substance and it doesn't have support without the expertise. So benefits and expertise need to go together. The benefit, interestingly enough, I think should be pretty aspirational because people want to know that there's a lot of upside here in this particular category. And so if you're not going to be able to do better than the guy that came before, I think it's going to be a hard task to get them to switch. And when I say aspirational, really aspirational, One of the rules in my book is that fantasy is more valuable than reality. The fact is that human beings store their memories in a fantasy form, in the ideal form. So if you think back to your last Thanksgiving dinner, you don't think of the cut-up turkey and the dog by the mat eating the old bones. You think of that gorgeous platter that came out with the golden turkey perfectly shaped. And then ultimately perfectly carved. So we wanna actually give our customers some fantasy, give them something to wish for and tap into that. And then the third thing that you wanna do is you wanna bring some of your own authentic self, your own authentic heritage and philosophy and story to the picture. That's where you're gonna get the distinctiveness. You mentioned that we all look the same to everybody. I think that's because financial advisors don't spend enough time telling their own personal stories, their own personal journeys of how they got there. How did they accumulate their expertise? What did they learn along the way? What are the ups and downs of how they got to really be passionate about this area and passionate about helping people and knowing that they uniquely know how to do this? Better than the next guy. So I think if you pull those 3 things together, the benefit, the expertise, and the heritage, you'll already have 3 prongs of your story pretty well laid out.

Let's talk about the expertise for a moment. And I think about the big consulting firms, McKinsey and Bain and BCG, as examples. What do they do? They publish their expertise. They put out these deeply researched reports. They all are writing books. And so they make all of this great intellectual property and research available for free to really demonstrate their expertise. And I think in our profession, the financial advisory profession, it's similar in that a lot of advisors are using the media, whether it's YouTube— is some of the— one of the more popular ones here recently, where people are doing all kinds of expertise and educational content on these different platforms. They're blogging, they're doing podcasts, that sort of thing. So they're really getting their expertise out, which I think is really sort of confirming what you're talking about here, the importance of expertise. I also want to touch on— you talked about aspirational, and I think that's another really important point to touch on here in that in the financial advisory profession, we can't overpromise here. Like, we can't guarantee that you're going to get this return or that return, or we can't guarantee very much in this profession. Yet at the same time, we want to inspire our clients to understand that money is a tool, and we can use money to help you live the kind of life that you want. So do you have any thoughts here specifically for advisors in terms of how we can use the tools available to us, which are things like planning and goal setting and thinking of money as a tool, not as an end in and of itself. What are some things we might be able to do without guaranteeing things, yet still inspiring people to realize you can have an amazing life and I can be your partner on that journey?

I do think that you can work with the consumer's own brain on this and ask them what their goals are. And help them see it, help them visualize it. What is their fantasy? And then explain how doing this planning and putting away a certain amount each year or whatever it is that you're going to sell them on in terms of products and services and your system, that that's gonna help them get there. And that is actually something that I think doesn't get enough attention, which is the notion of a system. People don't really believe that one person is better at something than another, but they do believe in systems. And I think that financial advisors would help themselves by almost trying to codify what it is they do in their approach. And that will also create and add distinctiveness to their approach, helping them differentiate themselves from the next sky. So spend some time thinking about what do I actually do? Maybe you've actually never really put it down. Why have you had success as a financial advisor? Try to put that down and systematize it in some way, and then give that to your customer. And I guarantee you that will go a long way to making them feel confident and that they're on a special kind of program that's going to make a difference.

And I'm a big fan of systematizing and thinking about what you do as an advisor, really building frameworks. For example, your thing might be our 5-step retirement planning process, as an example. And essentially what that's doing is it's help making the intangible tangible. And that's always a trick for people in a service profession is we give a lot of advice, but it's not like we've got this hard good that if I drop it, it's going to break my toes kind of thing. So it's like, how do we make the intangible more tangible? And I think having the systems and frameworks may go a long way toward making that happen.

That definitely. And then the other thing that we haven't touched on yet is this whole notion of growth triggers. So triggers, what are they? It's the name of my company, but it's also how we describe the codes and cues that you can use in communication that are so packed with positive associations that they help ignite and supercharge every communication you put out there, including the ones where you're sitting face-to-face with a client right there. What's a trigger? A good example is like that snow-capped mountain that we described before, cuz that's a tiny little visual, but it's packed with all that meaning we discussed. Pure prestige. Pristine, eco-friendly, from the glaciers. So the question is, what are the triggers for your business? And I would argue that the 3 things we talked about before—heritage, expertise, and benefit—that if a financial advisor sort of spends some time thinking about some phrases, some verbal triggers, as well as some visual triggers in each of those branches, they can help make their messaging more sticky so that it goes into people's minds. Emotions don't go into people's minds. You laugh, you cry, they— it's fleeting. It goes in one ear and out the other. But what we've learned actually stays in people's memory structure is assets, specifically distinctive brand assets that are distinctive to you. And so that I would be looking at heritage, expertise, and benefit, and maybe come up with a couple of different sayings that are part of your vernacular in the way that you relate to your clients and codify those phrases. Those would be verbal triggers. And then do the same thing with visual triggers. A great example of this is the up arrow, the arrow that shows growth, the bar charts from low to, to high. So there are many different ones that you can find just online on Google, in Google Images, that are potential category triggers in this financial space. But you can make them distinctive to you, like we talked about with the Aquafina bottle. Just make them branded to your brand.

So let me push back on you a little bit here. Mm-hmm. So do we run the risk of a trigger devolving into a cliché? And what I mean by that is, in our profession, again, we make fun of people who on their website, they have a picture of a lighthouse, or they have a picture of a gray-haired couple frolicking on the beach, or they have a compass there. So would those be considered triggers? And if so, how do we avoid becoming a cliché? And every financial advisor website has one or more of those things on their website.

Essentially, this is how the brain works. The brain already has these things in people's minds. The couple on the yacht, the couple on the beach, the beautiful home with the glass windows, getting out of the red sports car. We have these things in our minds already. And so if you're not using them and some other guy is, then you're letting him have the more aspirational brand. So I would argue that some of these things are really useful. You need to figure out which ones feel authentic to you and feel consistent with your personal brand, because you certainly don't want to do anything that doesn't seem fitting. And I think you can still do a lot of this in a very classy, refined way and not cliché. By making them distinctive to you. So I'm not saying to use them as is. I'm saying to figure out what your version of that thing is. One of my stories in my book, and the story that kind of was the foundation for my whole triggers philosophy, was one of my first jobs at Johnson's Baby, when I put the first dad in a Johnson's Baby shampoo commercial. And this was a creative twist on mom. With baby. Dad with baby was just a twist on something that already existed, but the business shot up, products started flying off the shelves. It was the highest-scoring commercial in Johnson Johnson's history. I would argue that you can't avoid them because these are what is in people's minds. And again, we wanna latch onto what's already there and use it to our advantage, cuz that is the path of least resistance. To a sale, whereas conflicting and doing something totally new and different that is foreign to them is the path of greatest resistance to a sale.

So talk to me about the tension, if there is one, between having a brand and having some consistency in that brand over time versus when do I need to refresh the brand and how do I think about that tension?

Yeah. One of the things that we are taught again in business programs is that a brand or a product has a particular life cycle that's finite. And the typical growth curve is you start out when you launch your business, you start gaining customers little by little as you gain more and more distribution, more and more customers, growth goes up, and then some, at some point as the brand ages. It flattens out and starts to decline. That is the typical growth curve that you're taught. What we've learned is that brands don't age. They don't get osteoporosis, they don't go gray, they don't get arthritis. They can actually live forever if you take care of them. And so you're asking a very important question, which is, how do I keep the brand alive and healthy? Over those years. What we've learned is that it's those negative associations that accumulate in the mind that only make the growth curve look like it's declining because of age, when in fact what is really happening is it's accumulated negative associations that haven't been removed. And negative associations are like an infestation in your tree, and then you start to have dead leaves. You need to prune those negative associations the minute they come up. And the way to do that is really to spend time talking to and conducting research with the people you don't have. The people you have, your core customer, are never gonna tell you what's wrong with you. They love you just the way you are. You need to go out and understand what's holding you back, your growth, with the people that don't have you, your prospective clients. That is the key to really outsized growth, taking down their negative associations. But you can't take them down unless you know what they are. And the only way to displace a negative association is to replace it with a positive association. Let's say your negative association, again, different category, but was artificial colors and flavors. You don't wanna say, no, I don't have those. You wanna actually show the healthy ingredients that you do have to displace and replace those negative associations. Otherwise, you're just reinforcing a negative association and telling more people that you have that problem. With the growth target, you really want to spend time, I would say every 6 months or every year, checking in with them to understand what those negative associations are in their minds, because there may be things that you need to do. Maybe you need to update your technology. Maybe there's more apps that you need to provide. There are all kinds of things that are going on in our culture that you're going to want to know about. And keeping a pulse on that through the growth target is going to be super helpful. And I would spend a lot of time researching with your competitive users, the people you don't have, sourcing them from larger companies where maybe you can, as a smaller boutique operation, can take some share from them by giving them more intimate personal service.

Leslie, you've got a new book here called The Power of Instinct: The New Rules of Persuasion in Business and Life, and I highly recommend it. So for folks that wanna learn more about you, what's the best place for them to stay in touch?

You can connect with me on LinkedIn for sure. You can buy the book on Amazon. Just put in Power of Instinct and Leslie Zane, and it'll pop right up. It's really a playbook of exactly what you need to do in your day-to-day job to activate on these principles and get your growth going.

All right.

That's all for today.

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