Liz Nesvold: How Advisors Can Attract, Nurture, and Keep Female Talent

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Hello and welcome to Barron's The Way Forward. I'm Greg Bartalus, and my guest today is Liz Nesvold. She is Vice Chair of Emigrant Bank and Chair of Emigrant Partners. Today, she will discuss how the wealth management industry can attract, nurture, and retain female talent. Welcome to the podcast, Liz.

Thanks so much for having me, Greg.

Ah, my pleasure. Tell us a little bit about your background, and then let's talk about the topic at hand.

Oh, goodness. Humble beginnings, let's say. I grew up in central New York and rural Pennsylvania. And in 1991, I started as a junior analyst/admin in investment banking. I spent about a decade leveling up to become a partner and a trusted advisor and investment banker to the wealth management industry. And in 2007, I launched my own company. We became the first investment bank to really focus on, on wealth and asset management with a fury. We were at top of the league tables, sold our company to a Fortune 500 in 2019. And about 4 years later, I retired from investment banking and stepped in to my beloved wealth management industry. Mm-hmm. Um, and then I was privileged enough to have been invited to come into this role. Actually, it's a dual-headed role as, uh, vice chair of the bank covering wealth services. Mm-hmm. And then a, um, chair of immigrant partners, which makes minority, non-control, non-voting investments in firms in the wealth and asset management space.

Okay. Great introduction. Now, let's talk about the, on a high level, the scope of the challenge and the importance of bringing more women into the industry, and also specifically at a higher level in the industry in real positions of import. Tell me a little about that before we jump into it.

Oh, goodness. Well, it feels like we are beginning to make some strides. So the wonderful thing is I'm seeing more women in leadership roles. I'm seeing them in the C-suite and not just in a chief marketing officer role, but rather as the CEO of an organization. But we're not where we need to be. We're not where we need to be broadly in any industry, and certainly not in financial services. And I think a big part of this is that we start out with the best of intentions with our recruiting classes early, whether it is a client service advisor, whether it is an investment banking analyst. Today we're doing a better job, but as employees progress in their career, women are not staying at the level that they should stay.

And why is that, to generalize?

Oh boy. Well, there are a number of factors. I would say, and I actually read an interesting— and I read it every year— a report from McKinsey about women in the workplace in concert with Lean In org. And there was this broken rung of the ladder. So no, no longer is it perceived as the glass ceiling, but rather it's a broken rung issue. And the issue is in leveling up. So we start out at, at quality numbers at entry-level positions, but across all industries, as you move up through manager to officer levels, we just find attrition. And it could be It could be a variety of factors. It could be women seeking career advancement and not feeling as if they are empowered to achieve those roles, being passed over for the roles, overworked, underrecognized, looking for better cultures that may be more DEI-aligned. Often, unfortunately, microaggressions that persist in the workplace that are really very damaging.

And what has been the impact of COVID on this dynamic that you're describing?

Oh, that's a wonderful question. You know, there's an opportunity to do better, and it is through hybrid workplace environments. So we start out in financial services pre-COVID as it's a 5-day-a-week in the office. Job requirement. And we move through COVID where everybody is working remote. While the— especially in wealth management, there's this wonderful apprenticeship notion of being in person that is important, terribly important. However, the flexibility has become increasingly important for women to do their best to bring their whole selves and also find balance with other objectives, whether whether they may be family-oriented or other aspirations, but bringing their whole self. And so the more we push to require 5 days a week, I think the more opportunity there is in a negative sense for attrition of the talent we seek to retain.

Right. And I would guess that in addition specifically to gender, that there may be a generational dimension to this because a lot of next-gen employees especially might be resistant to 5 days. Not that they won't, but all things considered, they might prefer not to have that if another company can not require that.

Well, and if you think about it today, there are, there are so many choices. And in financial services, especially in wealth management in particular, we saw a lot of turnover of employees in '22 and also '23. And it It was almost like if you as an organization weren't meeting the requirements that I have for myself in the workplace, somebody else will. And so whether it's a fully remote position, a hybrid position, a hybrid position with clear and delineated paths for leveling up, there's optionality. And especially a younger workforce talent population will level up elsewhere if you don't provide the opportunity.

Yeah. You've mentioned— no, you've mentioned something about the buddy mentorship program. Can you tell us a little about that?

Sure. Well, as we think about keeping women in the workplace, we need to think about a longer path for mentorship. And actually, I was chatting with one of my colleagues, Jenny Souza— and I'll talk about her in a minute— and Katie Cullen at BlackRock. We talked about the fact that it's not just mentorship, it's sponsorship of women. Mentorship is an engagement for a short period of time where you're thinking about that person. Sponsorship is an extended period where even when you're not together, you're thinking about articles or events they might go to. We need to do more in the workplace to find sponsorship. But in addition to that, We also need to find peers that they can relate to. So in our company, Silver Lane, we would try to assign a mentor and a buddy to every new employee. And that way they had somebody who could show them the ropes in a peer. But then they also had someone that they could meet with quarterly. And maybe it's off campus to be able to just relax and, and grab a meal and just talk about how things are going. And that's a way way to give people an outlet when something goes bump in the night, but also to give somebody something to look forward to, that someone at a senior level cares about their well-being, both in the workplace and outside, and cares about their opportunities to advance in, in their career progression.

Yeah, I mean, they could— if they know you're interested in pursuing a degree or a credential they might be able to help advocate for you, or at least offer support and at least spread awareness of what you want and that you're eager to advance in your career.

And that— well, and that's a great point that you raise, because for companies to be successful, they need to create building blocks, and they need to make sure that employees know it's okay to communicate your value. But we also need to make an investment investment in our teams. And again, it could be a professional designation. It could be night school. It could be something else in terms of an outside network that may cost a little bit of money for membership. It's a really important way to give them another outlet, another chance to learn, but also a clear attribution of investment in the whole human.

Yeah, and I assume that some people might feel sheepish or a little reticent about asking, could feel a little uncomfortable going there, but it would strike me that only good can come of it because, A, if the company agrees to your wishes, you obviously get what you want. You bring more to the table. And worst case, they say, "Sorry, no." In which case, nothing changes except that the company will recognize that you care about your career and you want to get ahead, which reflects well on you as well.

Absolutely. Well, and this is part of— so we all know that we can attract talent. This is part of the nurturing level, which is, again, We've got the buddy mentorship or sponsorship, making an investment in somebody, but providing an environment for self-advocacy is critically important. And that could be helping women to gather. So creating a network effect, fostering the network effect, which really needs to be inclusive. I cannot tell you how important it is to have both male and female sponsors around the table or within a network, um, because you learn so much from different people. Um, but then, um, making sure it's clear that, um, we're open to letting you ask for an investment in your career. And again, as we talked about, it could be education, certifications. It could also be coaching. There are some wonderful coaches that can help build teams, build the professional, and also help establish that confidence to negotiate effectively.

Okay. You mentioned at the beginning of the interview that there's been progress in terms of bringing more women in, but not to the extent that there should be. What would you characterize as a bigger, more, or more bigger challenge, bringing more women into the industry or retaining those who are in it, or are they roughly of similar importance, or I don't know.

I think it's the retention. So we can attract, we can do our early nurturing, and the retention is critical. So transparency is important. Transparency at all levels, pay equity. Obviously, there's, there's a lot to do with changing laws that now eliminate confidentiality in certain situations that also create a safer environment for women in the workplace. But in terms of the— we talked a little bit about microaggressions. Giving senior women the chance to advocate, make decisions, make impact to organization within an environment that is free of microaggressions is critical. And that's sort of a systemic issue. If you don't change the pattern of behavior at the top, you will not retain high-quality women that can transform the organization. And therefore, we're never going to cure the broken rung of the ladder. And on top of that, as we talked a little bit about, you've got to add the flexibility. You know, 5 days in the office should be an elective. This is one woman's view, not mandated. It is important, we talked about, to make sure that people are together. But, you know, essentially, the culture card has to be realized at all levels. We talk a great game, a great deal about culture, but it has to be throughout the organization and not just in print. And we need to advocate for women to continue to speak up, be bold at all senior levels, and it has to be okay.

Mm-hmm. OK, now in terms of retention, it's certainly not very good amongst next-gen people, advisors. And I don't know what the gender breakdown, if it's roughly equitable or if it's higher depending on the gender. But is there anything, any color you could add on that about why so many people enter the industry and leave in relatively short order? I mean, I know I've heard some of it is there's lack of career path and transparency. But please, yeah.

Sure. Sometimes the pitch-in is better than what you find when you get there. You know, again, people have choice. There are options. This is an industry that is, you know, really experiencing a tremendous war for talent. So it can't be the pitch to get people in. When they do get in, we need to give them some visibility in terms of how how they can feel included, how they can see a path forward to level up, and do they see anybody that looks like them that is in a successful position? So the see it to be it is critical. And it doesn't matter if you are a young woman or a male of color. You need to see it to be it. So if we're going to change the landscape of what what makes up financial services in terms of the faces, we need to do a better job. We need to let employees know. And so, if you think about, I'm not suggesting that we gamify, you know, there's a gamification of everybody's role, but you need to help them understand how to level up, because again, this is a workforce that has grown up in an industry of digital engagement. And so if they don't see a path for improvement, what does it take to get to the next level, then it is likely that you're going to lose that talent.

Speaking of getting to the next level, we mentioned earlier that there's a dearth of women at the highest levels. And you also spoke about the broken rung on the ladder. Roughly, where is that broken, uh, rung, you know, roughly situated on the ladder because it's obviously somewhere below the top. But I don't know, can you add a little color? Where, why, wherefores, etc.?

You know, it falls up, falls off. It's sort of degradation of the ladder levels.

Each rung gets a little— creaks a little more.

Exactly, creaks. Definitely good analogy. It creaks a little bit more. And it is, as women seek to And again, back to the— we talked a little bit about the McKinsey Lean In survey. Women equally care about their professional advancement as men do. And with that in mind and with the notion that there is only one of the two sexes that can produce offspring, we need to find a way to provide some flexibility. That is a part of the equation. It's not the entire equation, is making sure that we are smart-minded. I mean, we're doing a better job for men who want to spend time with their newborns in paternity leave. We need to find an extended way to provide that flexibility, to give women a chance to contribute and level up so we don't lose them. But we also need to be sensitive to advancement. Women seeking career advancement and a balance to enjoy being a mom and being in the household is a good thing that we should embrace. And it's— I remember my mother saying to me when I was building my company, she said, I thought you said you were going to work less. And I said, no, I didn't say I was going to work less, Mom. I said, nobody's going to tell me which 16 hours of the day I can work between building a company and being a mommy, I worked my butt off. But again, I did it with some element of flexibility that, you know, a managing partner could afford herself. So I think that is important. And also recognizing that simply because we elect to have a family does not mean we don't care about professional advancement.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's excellent. I think we're almost out of time unless there's anything else you'd like to add.

Oh, always.

Well, floor is yours. Go for it.

I am privileged today to work with a woman that I referenced earlier, Jenny Souza. And Jenny is a woman that I hired 27 years ago. And it is through a sponsorship and long-term friendship that I, I would appear during various points in her career. And she was a big part of the reason that I was wooed over into the role that I'm in, is the chance to work with a rock star CEO that made it her own. And I feel so fortunate to have been a small part of her successes along the way. It really is so rewarding to be able to do this. And if it were not for— again, it's not just women mentoring women if it were not for a man, Bruce Cameron, who was my mentor as a baby banker, an analyst that had to start in an administrative role to even make it into the investment banking seat. I would not be where I am today. If it weren't through my husband, I would not be where I am today with his support. So, It takes a lot. We need to remember to thank those who paved the path before us. But I strongly encourage everybody to find a way to sponsor somebody because it's the most rewarding thing you will ever do, next to having a child.

Excellent. Well, that's a great way to wrap up the podcast. Thank you so much for sharing all that.

Thank you for having me.

Absolutely, any time. My guest has been Liz Nesvold. For more podcasts The latest wealth management news, visit barons.com/advisor. For The Way Forward, I'm Greg Bartalus.

This podcast was brought to you by Wells Fargo Advisors. Looking for a firm your clients can't outgrow? Wells Fargo Advisors offers financial advisors full balance sheet solutions with wealth planning, investment products, banking, and lending that meet the needs of affluent ultra-high net worth clients. Build your practice your way and on your schedule with independent and employee model options designed to meet your needs today and tomorrow. Learn more at joinwfadvisors.com.