Love at First Sight? No, but ...

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Hello and welcome to The Way Forward. I'm Scott Wenger. I'm the relatively new editorial director of Barron's Advisor, and I'm a new voice on these podcasts. I'm joined this week by Rachel Gottlieb and Will Rose, principals of Gottlieb Rose Wealth Management, a practice at UBS in New York City managing over $1 billion. Thank you both very much for speaking with us.

Thank you.

Thanks for having us.

Let's jump in. First off, partnerships are very hard, both professionally and personally. Later on, we'll talk about Rachel's specialty as a certified divorce financial analyst. But let me ask right now how you met, how you work to complement each other's talents and skill sets, and how you divide managing the business.

So I'll start. Um, we met in 2016, and the, the interesting part is that both Will and I had grown up at UBS. I've been working at UBS since 2002 and Will since 1999. But the first time that we met was when our complexes combined and our branch manager said, you know, have you ever thought about partnering? And at the time, we had both— we were both sole practitioners and we hadn't really thought about partnering. But we had a lunch where we met each other, and I can't say it was love at first sight, but After speaking and, and, uh, getting to know each other, we kind of wanted to explore further and we had an opportunity to go after a client together. And we quickly saw that, you know, as cheesy as it sounds, 1 1 can equal 3. And we were able to see that our skill sets were complementary, that we both had similar energies and that our skill— that we both had similar work drives. And it became a lot more interesting at that point. You could see that clients gravitated towards the idea of having a team, and it seemed like it, you know, it really started to make a lot of sense very quickly. So I would say the way that we complement each other is— there's a lot of different complementary ways that we do. We're very similar in a lot of ways, but we're also very different. Um, really at the end of the day, I'm more of the macro big picture and Will is more micro detailed. And I think that we kind of complement each other and balance each other out. Um, the other great thing about having a partnership is we were able to build out an amazing team. So before when we each had kind of one person working with us, we were able to now have a much bigger team. So more support for clients, which really created an amazing client experience.

Thanks, Rachel. Will, I love your take on that, and I liked— I appreciated Rachel's anecdote of the proof point of recruiting a client was where you saw that it would actually work. What can you add to Rachel's thoughts on that?

I'll start off by saying that initial lunch was beyond awkward. Neither of us wanted or were looking for a partnership whatsoever. So when you sit down on a blind date for the first time with somebody. It's interesting getting to know them. And fortunately, we had branch management there supporting us and leading the conversation. So turned out to be a wonderful lunch. But as Rachel said, definitely was not love at first sight. In looking at complementing each other, you know, I think Rachel hit the nail on the head. But when you look at the idea of dividing and managing the business, It's actually, for us, it's very unique because we've been— I've been here for the majority of my career. As Rachel mentioned, she's been here for her entire career. We know and are able to navigate UBS very well. So we've made it a point to become interchangeable. So when a client speaks to me or a client speaks to Rachel, we're both in the loop with everything going on. And whether one of us are in a meeting or a conference call or both of us are there, we make sure the entire team is in the loop. So we're completely interchangeable. And by doing so, there's no divide and conquer. It's basically you're getting the best of both worlds. And as Rachel said, clients are going to gravitate to one of us or both of us, or the idea of the team aspect. So it's very nice to be in the loop. On the flip side, you also are challenged in a positive way each and every day because there are ideas that I have or ideas that Rachel has or different views that we have on the world where we don't always see eye to eye. And it really allows you behind the scenes to talk through a complex situation or a complex plan and really see the other point of view. So it's great and it's been very interesting, a lot of fun.

I appreciate the answers and how you're looking to leverage the power of the team to solve greater issues. You know, there are seismic shifts happening in the industry right now. Fee compression, challenge to the traditional incumbents in wealth management, the extraordinary and unceasing advance in technology, and much more, of course. How have you evolved your practice to deliver in new ways and transform the customer experience to adapt to evolving client needs?

It's a great question, and it's something I, I I'll start, um, that Rachel and I have really looked at under a microscope where we are today, and we've been for some time, is financial planning and really understanding what our clients' goals and needs are, and most importantly, their liquidity. So although the world has changed, at the end of the day, each and every one of our clients and the people we interact with want someone who they can call to ask questions to. And to deal with their concerns. So we've adapted the experience and evolved it into even more comprehensive planning, but more importantly, talking to clients about what concerns them at night and what concerns them day to day. And that's where adapting to the new normal, which is everyone working from home, if you will, in the immediate time where we were really able to connect and really understand, and it made conversations in February and March a lot easier because we already adapted to the new world.

Makes sense. And you know, in preparing for today's podcast, I noted that there's a slogan on your website, Advice Beyond Investing. Tell me how that helps orient your relationships with your clients.

Advice Beyond Investing is really just referring to the fact that we do more than buy stocks and, you know, sell bonds, um, or sell bonds and buy stocks, but Really, we're looking holistically at what's important to you, the client, and that could include family. I mean, that's the most important thing, as we've seen kind of the whole time, is people's family is the most important thing. But really just everything. So from what excites you, what your goals are, to what keeps you up at night and what scares you. And we're addressing all of it and we're giving advice, not again, just about buying and selling securities, but about holistic planning. So for example, you know, what if something were to happen to me? Well, that kind of translates to, am I properly insured? What, you know, can I afford this place? Can I afford to retire? You know, we saw in COVID, we had a doctor, for example, that had health concerns. And as a result, he wanted and kind of was forced to retire early. And so we were able to help him through that decision, which was obviously emotional and also financial decision. We talk about what's important to clients and we've been able to help up, help set up family foundations. We've been able to help educate the next generation, our children. So it's really a lot of different conversations and we really wanna be involved in everything and really understanding and kind of being the go-to person for our clients, not just, oh, should I buy this stock? Or I saw this, you know, this idea, what do you think? It's really life-encompassing.

Got it. Your practice typically is based out of UBS offices in Midtown, and you told me earlier that you're both there today. Have you been going into the office on a regular cadence during COVID Regular is not the right word.

We've been here when we can and how we can. Most importantly to Rachel and I and everyone we interact with on a daily basis is being safe., not contracting COVID, not spreading COVID, so on and so forth. So in the beginning of COVID uh, we went into our homes on March 13th. We didn't come back in the office until after September 1st. And those first 3 months, as I'm sure everybody on the podcast can relate to, we really didn't know what the world looked like. So we immediately set up shop that our team was meeting virtually, uh, over the phone, uh, Skype, et cetera, 9:00 AM. And we're having calls at 5:00 PM. And then throughout the day, what we wanted to do, which was very important, and then I'll answer the question, is we wanted to be able to see each other because you don't— when you're on a team, you don't know what everybody's home environment is like and you don't know who they're with. And we have members of our team who live by themselves. We have members of our team that live with extended family. And it was really important to be able to see everyone and make sure everybody was okay. So initially, we did not come in the office. And then starting in September, Rachel and I realized that being in the office added an element for us that was important. So with masks, socially distanced, we come into the office about once a week and conduct business from here. And a day like today, which, you know, we came in, we're here now, and we'll be here for the entire day. And it allows us really to come up with ideas and, and deal with situations like this podcast that are much easier when we could see each other rather than being on the phone.

Once both of you have been vaccinated, would you want to be in the office day in, day out? And do you think your clients even care where you are each day of the week?

First and foremost, everybody, we were concerned and our clients were concerned about everyone's safety. So I think from that perspective, there was never any, um, you know, everybody was understanding about the fact that we were working from home and Everybody firsthand saw that we were able to get everything that we needed to done and that we never skipped a beat. So from that perspective, did the clients care? No, I, I don't think that they care where we are. Now, personally, um, I think it's nice to know that you can work anywhere. And honestly, I've always kind of known that. I mean, I had two babies having a practice, so I, I didn't take a formal maternity leave. I was working from home, you know, with a baby in hand. So I didn't, I always knew that that was a possibility, but I do think that there were people on our team that never had the ability to log on from home, and now they see that they can have that flexibility when they need to too. Now, that being said, I don't think you can replace, as much as it's great to have flexibility and important, I don't know that you can replace the being together, the synergy and the energy that that creates. So we look forward to being all back together as a team day to day, but at the same time, we're comforted by the idea that we have the flexibility to work from home if something comes up.

So you anticipate a cadence where on most days, once much of the working world is in a healthy state, and same for your clients, that you would prefer to be in the office most days of the week, if not if not all of them, then most of them, for the opportunity for the spontaneous meeting, the quick check-in with a colleague on, what do you think of this? Or did you hear that so-and-so is concerned about that? That can take just several minutes longer and you can lose the moment when you're working from home. But of course, the flip side is that we all enjoy the much shorter commutes and the ability to leverage more of the rest of our lives if we need to take a little bit of time to do something on a personal front, we could then make up the work time, or as the emails and chores pile up, we can knock those off. So, do you think, do you foresee both of yourselves being at the office only part of the time starting at some point soon?

I think we both appreciate, and everyone on our team appreciates flexibility, but at the end of the day, Both of us have worked in New York City for our entire careers. There's something special about coming into the city. There's a certain element of energy being in the office. It's something that we both enjoy. And if it's a safe environment, which we hope one day it will be, we would love to see our entire team and the entire industry go back to where it was, which is people interacting and enjoying socialization together. And that's in the office. And New York's a great place to do it. And I personally miss the city a lot.

Have you heard from any clients who have expressed an opinion one way or the other? I imagine some have said, I think it's been such a revelation for the working world, depending on what kind of job you have, but certainly in this industry and so many others that so much can be done productively remotely. Do you think clients will really look forward to in-person meetings, or do you think many clients will be satisfied with a video call?

So I think that will really depend on the client, which I think quite frankly it always has. There are clients that love face-to-face, and then there's clients that are fine with just a phone call, which is how we're able to have a business not just in New York, but really across the United States. But I still think sitting with somebody at the table, there's something that can't replace that. So probably, you know, again, It really depends client to client, but we look forward to being able to see clients more regularly in person.

I think what's very interesting, which is something that we've never experienced before in either of our careers, is everyone was in the same place at the same time for the most part. So in March, April, and May, us being at home and many of our clients being at home really enabled us to get to know one another in a very different way. For example, you can't stop someone from hearing a dog barking, a baby crying, a child asking a question, so on and so forth. So it's very interesting to really learn how to pause and deal with the outside environments in every call, or, you know, in dealing with a client. And it makes the conversations go in a little bit of a different direction than you would in an office setting. And it was actually very refreshing to get to know clients in that aspect as sitting in their home with their family, without anything being censored. So it's been nice to do it this way also. Both ways will be very interesting and a lot of fun.

That's a great point that if you think of it as the discovery process, you're seeing clients maybe more relaxed, not as guarded or not as prepared because if they're in their own home, casual interruptions will occur and you could learn maybe a bit more about family relationships or how people interact with each other that you might not see in a formal setting in your office or at a restaurant.

Definitely.

Uh, let's turn now to, uh, I wanna circle back on Rachel's specialty as a certified divorce financial analyst. What led you to develop that expertise? Do most advisors with the specialty work with women or men as well?

Well, so what inspired me to get the designation was that we work a lot with couples, and statistically, oftentimes, or, you know, some couples go through divorce, and it became apparent that there was a need to be able to help a client through an emotionally— it's a very emotional period. And to be able to help and have the expertise to be able to advocate for that client and to help them through the financial decisions and emotional decisions that it encompasses. So there was a client that I had worked with, it was a couple, and when they went through a divorce, it was very apparent that not having those expert, those skill sets, you know, made it so that I wasn't able to give holistic advice and really truly be an asset to them. So that's really what inspired me to get that designation. And in terms of men and women, yes, we can work with the men, you know, men, and we work with women. But we also— it doesn't, you know, there's a lot of different value that we can add while helping a client go through a divorce.

I'm sure so many advisors, uh, as you noted, and as research has shown, about 40% of American marriages end in divorce. I imagine then when— that when clients loop you in and say that they are separating, it's a perilous time for the relationship. I, I imagine that it's very hard to retain both partners of a marriage if they're splitting after the fact. How does that relationship get invited— get divided in your experience?

Right. So sometimes we'll end up having a relationship, unfortunately, even if we try to include both spouses, sometimes one spouse, just because we're all busy, you know, juggling a lot of times careers and children and everything else, wound up being the steward of the finances. And as a result, one spouse will develop a relationship with their advisor, that creates an opportunity for the spouse that wasn't the steward of the family and didn't handle it and have that relationship to find another relationship. And oftentimes, if we were the advisor with both spouses, sometimes that makes it where you lose a spouse. Not always. I mean, you can certainly be neutral and be able to help both parties, but it depends on if you can connect to both spouses. I mean, I think that's one great thing about Will and I, the dynamic of having a male-female partnership. I think that kind of sets us apart because we can really connect to both spouses. And just a lot of times when we sit across the table, doesn't mean that I always connect the best to the woman and he's to the man, but it's— you end up having two-on-two as if you were going out to dinner, you know, with another couple and you can both connect to one-on-one, if that makes sense. So able to keep both spouses in that situation, just having that dynamic. Um, but I do think oftentimes it creates a situation where there's someone who didn't have the strong relationship. It's an opportunity for them to go find someone else. And we spent a lot of time educating the person that didn't have the financial, wasn't the financial steward. And it doesn't mean that it's not the financial savvy person in the relationship. Oftentimes we found it could be someone who was in finance but didn't have the time and wanted to delegate something. Um, so, you know, this creates an opportunity for us to educate, advocate, and help through this transition, especially when an individual is very emotional, um, and has— and overwhelmed, quite frankly, with everything going on.

Of course, money is such a stressful issue, and as a financial advisor, no doubt when you meet with some couples, uh, you just can pick up on a vibe, especially again when you're discussing money and other issues that bring stress to the forefront. If you sense that a couple is in a perilous place, is it your place that you found? Do you do anything to try to help move things to a shore or ground? Or is there anything you can do to protect either your practice or the client's finances if you anticipate that that's where something might be headed?

Many of our clients, as Rachel mentioned, we get to know both spouses very well. All of our clients, we get to know both of our spouses and all the family members involved. And what we try to do in meetings is really assess someone's goals and their needs and their fears. And as I mentioned before, what kind of keeps them up at night. And it's really because many times Rachel and I are both at the table, if not always, it becomes more of a conversation that everyone, whether it be 2 people, 4 people, 6 people sitting at the table, everyone kind of adds in and you look to each person for guidance. So We're never in any situation assessing someone's relationship. We're better trying to understand what concerns them. And when you're in a room with two people, no matter how well they get along or no matter how they get along at all, everyone always has different opinions, just like Rachel and I do. So we listen to those opinions, we focus on them, and then we try to make an assessment of what's going on from a risk tolerance standpoint, a financial planning standpoint. An investment standpoint, that allows both people, in this case spouses, to voice their opinion. Because we take so much time in getting to know people, many times when the clients were existing prior to the separation, we're able to maintain relationships on both sides. And of course, clients have to be respectful of the sensitivity that once there is a divorce or a split, or if you will, delusion of a relationship, a relationship dissolves, they have to also be respectful of not asking about the other person. But getting to know people is why the relationship continues when it does.

If we see that there's one spouse that is not able to kind of air their, their thoughts, we'll encourage them to be involved in the conversation, to take a seat at the table, and to be involved, even if they're not involved in every single decision-making conversation or the day-to-day, we at least encourage them to be part of the financial plan, to be part of, you know, the annual meetings and, and just to make sure that everyone feels in the loop and, and that their voice is heard.

Appreciate that perspective. Among your practice's specialties are offering guidance on insurance. What are savvy questions that the two of you ask as you work to develop a plan for clients' insurance needs?

Insurance is a very interesting topic, and Rachel and I have very similar views on it. Um, we view insurance as a need to succeed in an unfortunate situation. What I mean by that is if you take— you buy a home and you have a mortgage on your home, and God forbid something happens to you or your spouse or whomever you own the home with, insurance is a good idea, a good consideration to solve that need for immediate money to, you know, ultimately pay off that mortgage. I use that as an example to say that whenever we recommend insurance, it has to deal with a client's goals, their needs in terms of A, liquidity, terms of B, estate planning— again, liquidity— and then third to handle an unforeseen circumstance. That could be a myriad of different things. So when we look at insurance, it's in that avenue that we use it with a specific goal. Hopefully that answers your question.

It does, you know, and it makes me want to follow up with one particular kind of insurance that I've heard a lot of advisors wrestle with, clients as well., and that's long-term care insurance. What's your take on that? How do you determine whether that's a proper instrument for particular clients?

It's a conversation. So again, we're talking about a situation where everyone hopes they never need it. No one wants to need long-term care insurance. So the way we really handle that is we talk to the individuals. Again, it, it's situational. Married, single, children, parents, you know, who are you caring for? And if your assets were to be used to support yourself, unfortunately, in a medical situation, A, do you have the assets to do that? And then B, are those assets in your mind for something else, whether, as I said, it'd be a family member, charitable organization, et cetera. So that's the way we handle it. We lay out the facts for the person whom we're speaking with and then let them know what the outcome will look like. And then of course, followed up by saying, hopefully you'll never need this and it will be a complete waste, if you will. And then, then that individual makes that determination on their own as to whether they want the insurance or they'd rather self-insure. And, and that's really the conversation that we have, and we give it back to the person we're speaking to.

What percentage of your clients would you estimate have long-term care insurance?

It's a good question. We've never— I've never actually looked across the entire client base to, to give you a percentage, but I think it's safe to say about a third of our clients have long-term care insurance of some fashion, but I can say with 100% certainty, we've had the conversation with all of our clients, which is what does your retirement look like? If something happens to you, how does everything play out? And that really leads us to what life looks like later on.

I appreciated your noting that, uh, given the, the nature of long-term care insurance and for some clients, they, you know, from what advisors have related to me, that there's a bit of sticker shock in that, as you said, for some clients in their minds, the best option is self-insuring if they feel that the price they're paying is not providing enough value. Are there other topics we haven't touched on just yet that you think have been surfaced in the past year as far as top client concerns looking forward?

I mean, one major thing that's come on, and, and, you know, it really resonates with everyone, is, is what does the world look like when we go back to a day like December of 2019? How does that relate? How does that look like for me? And how does that affect me? Meaning, that's the things that our clients and prospects are asking us. And, you know, What we've done is we've really said, you know, when you look at your financial plan and you look at where you are this year, this year looks very different than any other year any of us have experienced. And what we suggest is with every change in life event, which this is a change in life event for everyone, is not to make any immediate changes, really to let some time go past and see where you are. And what we're doing with clients in our year-end reviews and our setup for the new year is to to say, where are you today? Where were you in 2019? And how have your goals and needs changed? So I think it's important to realize that many of us had very different goals and needs in 2019 than we do in 2021. And we need as advisors to adjust the way we look at the world to realize that although things may and hopefully will go back to normal, it will be a little bit different. And I think everyone is very sensitive to, rightfully so, health and their family. And I think that those are big conversations that every advisor should have. And Rachel and I have on a regular basis.

I appreciate your framing it that way. I hear that as, you know, a plan is such an important aspect of, you know, a complex detailed plan given what's gone on in a client's life or lives up until that point. But of course the world will intrude. And will make changes in both their lives and what's going on either with government and taxes or things that no one can even anticipate. So flexibility is being prudent about preparation. And I realize as I look at our timer that our conversation for me could go on for another hour. But at this point, let me turn to what we always use use as a Great Barron's tradition, asking our guests for one final actionable idea that our listeners could put right into practice. Can I ask you both to tackle that?

I think that this period of time has been overwhelming trying to juggle everything at the same time day to day. And one thing that I've found is just making a list of what you want to do every day and accomplish. It just makes you feel that when you— and cross everything off. That you actually had a successful day. And I think we all put a lot of pressure on ourselves, especially in this environment where we feel somewhat out of control. As you said before, the flexibility of pivoting. And I think just being able to cross what you wanted to accomplish off of your list makes you feel that you had a productive and successful day and makes us a little easier on ourselves day to day.

I love that. A goals-based approach to day in, day out. That's a good one.

Will, one for you, please. I mean, mine has always been a just-because call. Pick up the phone like you'd call a friend, family member, or anyone else and check in with your clients and check in with them and see how they're doing. Because you really, especially during COVID you have no idea, as I mentioned before, who's in their home and has been in their by themselves for a long period of time. And, you know, who's in a busy house and who's in a rural area and who's in an urban area. And I think you got to pick up the phone and call each and every client and really have a conversation with them about everything and about nothing and just say, hey, how you doing? How is everything going for you? And I think that's something that when we get involved in a situation and life gets busy, we forget about. But now that we're taking a pause, hopefully everybody will do that and just reach out and say hi.

So the focus on listening, active listening, so you could really hear what might be going on that doesn't come up initially. That's great advice. And Rachel and Will, thank you very much for your time and sharing your knowledge. And thanks to everyone for listening. Tune in next week for our Barron's Advisor Podcast, Actionable Intelligence with Steve Sandusky. We'll be back in 2 weeks with another edition of The Way Forward.

This podcast was brought to you by Wells Fargo Advisors. Looking for a firm your clients can't outgrow? Wells Fargo Advisors offers financial advisors full balance sheet solutions with wealth planning, investment products, banking, and lending that meet the needs of affluent to ultra-high net worth clients. Build your practice your way and on your schedule with independent and employee model options designed to meet your needs today and tomorrow. Learn more at joinwfadvisors.com.