Maddy Dychtwald: Women's Guide to Retirement and ‘Ageless Aging’

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We've all heard the saying, age is just a number, but what if that number could be extended by years or even decades while maintaining our health, vitality, and sense of purpose? Hi everyone, I'm business coach Steve Sandusky for Barron's Advisor, The Way Forward Podcast. My guest today is Maddie Dykewald. Maddie is an internationally acclaimed author, speaker, and thought leader on longevity, Aging, The New Retirement, and The Ascent of Women. She's also the co-founder of Age Wave, which is the world's leader in understanding and addressing the impacts of our aging population. And she's the author of a new book called Ageless Aging: A Woman's Guide to Increasing Healthspan, Brainspan, and Lifespan. In today's conversation, Maddie shares insights from her interviews with over 100 of the world's top longevity experts, and she reveals how we are in the beginning stages of a longevity revolution with women leading the way. If you are a woman who wants to take control of your aging journey, or a financial advisor looking to better serve your female clients, you won't want to miss Maddie's empowering message and practical advice. With that, here's my conversation with Maddie Dykewald.

I've been in the field of aging, longevity, and retirement for close to 40 years. And along the way, I've had the great privilege of both doing research myself and with my team, but also interacting with the scientists and the academicians and the researchers at the cutting edge of these subjects. And what I realized was that there's millions and millions of women who are moving into their 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, and beyond. And I was learning all this information, kind of insider tips from these experts. And I felt like I gotta share this with the world, especially with women, because, you know, if you look out there into the universe of books on longevity, most of them are written by men. And frankly, they're kind of for men more than they are for women. So I wanted to create something that was By a woman for women.

What are some of the challenges that you've found by the fact that women on average tend to live quite a bit longer than men?

On average, women have really kind of won the longevity lottery. I mean, we live on average 6 years longer than men. So that's on average. It can obviously be different on an individual basis, but that gives women a lot of opportunities, but also there is a dark side to that. And just thinking about it in terms of health, while women live longer than men, even if you correct for the fact that they live longer than men, women still get sicker than men in the last years of their lives. That's a scary scenario because women's health spans, the number of healthy years that they live, don't match their lifespans. And it's about 12 to 14 years of cascading poor health. Let me add to that that women aren't as prepared from a financial perspective as men. We not only live longer, we have a pay gap to contend with, which can really add up over time. We generally retire earlier than men. If we're partnered or married, we often outlive our husbands and spend the last years of our lives alone and oftentimes spend down some of the money that we have saved with our husbands to pay for any kind of issues that they're going through. And yeah, it makes it a lot harder to have the financial well-being needed to live better longer.

So what can women do? What are some specific things women can do to try and live healthier longer?

Well, what women want to do is better match their health spans to their lifespans. And one of the key pieces of information that they need to own is that we used to think it was all about our genetics. Whatever your genetics are, you're kind of stuck. So whatever you do, it doesn't matter. However, the cutting edge of science has told us that, no, that is not the case at all. In fact, up to 90% of our health and well-being is within our control. Now, I want to say that again, within our control. So when I did my research and I talked to experts, spoke to more than 100 experts for my book, what I began to see is that it wasn't just about exercise and sleep and food, although those things are very important. But there is an entire holistic recipe for living better, longer. That women need to own. They need to take steps to better match their health spans to their lifespans. And these things all work together. They're not in silos. For instance, if you're stressed out, chances are your sleep is going to be affected. And if your sleep is affected, your brain health is affected dramatically, as well as your physical health. Not eating healthy foods, not only is your cardiovascular health and your brain health impacted, but But it's going to impact your financial well-being as well because you need to pay for more healthcare. So, again, just as a few examples, these things all work together. So, I think there's this holistic recipe that we need to own that I talk about in Ageless Aging. And rather than, oh my God, that seems so complicated, instead, it gives us a lot of different levers we can pull to really improve our health spans. And that's what we wanna do, improve our health spans.

So it's one thing to have an intellectual understanding of the things that we can do that we have control over. It's a very different thing to actually do those things that we know that we should do. This old idea of the knowing-doing gap. So in your experience, what have you found will help people go from, yeah, I get it, I know I should be doing this, I should be meditating, I should be doing breathing exercises, I should be eating healthy. How do we go from intellectually knowing that to actually taking action and doing those things?

Steve, from the work we've done at Age Wave, the research, you're absolutely right. There is what we called an intention-action gap when it comes to generalities. Women know what they should be doing. They should be eating healthier, they should be exercising, sleeping better, and so forth and so on. But there's a few things that I think can make a real difference in closing that intention-action gap. One of them is to to recognize that no matter how old you are, you could be 40, you could be 80, you can always take steps to improve your health and wellbeing. I think that that's such a positive message. So that's one good thing. Second thing is from talking to the various experts, one at Mayo Clinic that comes to mind, Dr. Steve Kopecky, he told me, you know what, find an entry point. One thing as a way to get started. So for me, that was always exercise because I'm an exercise fanatic. I love moving. And frankly, according to studies that have been done, exercise is kind of like a silver bullet. It can really, in a very short amount of time, not only affect your physical health and well-being, but your brain health, your cognitive capabilities. And Wow, what a silver bullet is that? And it only has to be for like 30 minutes a day. And by the way, if you can combine that with something like doing it in nature and doing it with a friend, you're really starting to pull a lot more levers than just the exercise piece. So that's what he said. However, I want to make a caveat to that. One of the things I learned from Dr. Dean Ornish, he told me, yeah, that's really true. You can start with one thing. It will, if you're doing well at it and Frankly, you can do well at exercise or eating in a couple of weeks, see some differences, and that will motivate you to move forward. But if you've got health issues, if you've got concerns about your cardiovascular health, or if you have diabetes, any of those chronic degenerative diseases, which women, by the way, are more likely to get than men, you may need to start dealing with many of these levers, these ingredients in this holistic recipe at one time. So yeah, change your eating. Really do what you can, you know, wake up in the morning and worship the sun to get your circadian rhythms right for sleep. Exercise, go out with friends, remember your social connections, have a feeling of purpose. Maybe it's even just walking your dog. I mean, taking all of these things and working together.

Yeah. And one of the things I find is that— use exercise as an example. So like exercise begets exercise. And what has happened for me, I exercise all the time, but I write it down, I track it. I literally have a spreadsheet and it has every single day of the year and then each year has a column. And so I can tell you 10 years ago on this day, what exercise did I do? And every time I exercise, I go into my little spreadsheet and I put a, a 1 in the box that I exercise today. And it keeps track percentage-wise year to date how many days I've exercised. So to me, I get that little hit of dopamine every time I check the box that I exercise today. And, and I just find that tracking stuff like that also helps to give you that momentum. And then it also makes me more cognizant of what I'm eating, because if I'm exercising, I'm like, okay, I just burned 500 calories, and now I'm thinking about having some cookies and cream ice cream with hot fudge on it. Now, is that, is that worth the hour that I just spent exercising? Kind of thing. So you just start thinking about some of these trade-offs.

Yeah, that's good. Journaling, it's definitely one of the techniques that you can use. Another thing that works really effectively is putting it on your calendar. I do that all the time. I add in, okay, I'm going to exercise. This is, this is as important as writing an article or doing a podcast or whatever. So I prioritize it that way. And there are other techniques. Another thing that was pointed out to me by a psychotherapist was that you may fall off the wagon and that's okay. You don't have to be perfect. And just because you fall off the wagon doesn't mean you can't pick yourself up and get right back on it. So I thought that that was actually a pretty optimistic thing to recognize. For instance, just as an example, I've really been trying to limit or completely eliminate alcohol because it kills brain cells. And frankly, I love a glass of wine at the end of the day, but I have eliminated most of that. However, if I go out to dinner with friends and everyone's having a glass of wine, I will in fact indulge with one glass of wine and feel like, okay, this is fine because tomorrow I'll be better.

Yeah. And, you know, sort of kind of gets back to those trade-offs as well, that if we try and be too much of a stickler on some of this stuff, then we're just going to be miserable. And we don't want to go through life being miserable.

So one of the brain specialists that I spoke to from France, actually, she has a research lab in Normandy, France, she told me, of course, the French way is always the happiness way, that happiness was an important ingredient in living better, longer. And if you were gonna do all these things and be miserable, what's the point? What you're saying is absolutely right.

Yeah. And so we've talked about exercise, we've talked about what we eat. So there's really this constellation of things that we can do. So I'd love for you to touch on some other ones. I know in your book you talk about the role of purpose. You talk about the role of social connections. Yeah.. And there's been a lot of research in those areas. So tell me a little bit more about purpose, for example. What role does purpose play in our lifespan and healthspan?

There have been studies that show that a lack of purpose can actually shorten our lifespan. Now, that's pretty incredible. Also, the need for purpose and for meaning, it's one of the deepest drivers of well-being that we have. So obviously, purpose is a really important thing. We've done studies at Age Wave that tell us that 87% of all women say that having a sense of purpose is one of the most important markers for a successful retirement. They also say that feeling useful, though having that sense of purpose, actually can make them feel more youthful. So that's a pretty crazy connection. And I love the idea that having purpose is an important thing because for me personally, having purpose takes a lot of different forms. I have purpose with a small p. That's like walking my dog in the morning, going for a jog. These things make me feel like I'm on purpose. But then writing this book, Ageless Aging, I mean, that was my purpose with a big P. And for some people, it's staying in work or volunteering their time. There's a lot of things we can do. The idea of purpose has to be this big thing, it can be paralyzing to people. They need to start with small things, things that can just make their life feel more purposeful and more joyful.

So you spend a lot of time working with financial advisors. What role do you think financial advisors have in helping their clients that are nearing retirement to reflect on purpose and make sure that they're not just retiring from something, but they're actually retiring to something.

It's interesting because the role of the financial advisor has actually become one of a trusted advisor, which is different than I think it used to be when it was like a wealth advisor. I think in order to understand someone's future retirement needs in terms of finance, a good financial advisor really gets to know the clients, whether it be a man or a woman or generally a couple. They need to get into their lives a little bit, and probing the idea of purpose with them is probably something that would be of benefit to both the financial advisor and also to, let's say, a couple, because maybe they haven't thought about it. And if they think about it a little bit in advance, like maybe 3 to 5 even 10 years before they're even anticipating retirement, that could really help them put some plans in place. So for instance, I have a friend who was considering retirement, and she sat down with her financial advisor who really did broach the subject with her, and it made her think about her life completely differently. He gave her a list of local organizations that she might in fact be able to volunteer with, and she found one. She was really into her dog and into pets. So now she works with a pet rescue, and it has little by little become her life. So she was starting with a small P, and it literally grew into a big P for her. So I think that— I wouldn't say it's a responsibility of a financial advisor, but it is certainly that can help him create a better relationship with his clients.

And then how do you think about— so this concept of retirement, obviously you and your firm, you've done decades of research in this area. So that used to be Like my dad, I was just talking to my dad yesterday. Like he's 95 and he retired when he was 58. He took an early retirement and he literally never worked another day in his life. And his purpose, if you could call it that, has been the financial markets. And so he watches CNBC all day long. He updates his portfolio at the end of the day. His academic schooling was in accounting, so he loves to just update his portfolio by hand every day. And that gives him a reason to get out of bed and stay engaged. And when he and I talk, we're talking about the stock market and it's, it's been a lot of fun that way. So how do you think about when people, quote, retire from the career profession, what are you seeing going forward? Are people taking part-time work? It's sort of a passion that they like to do, like the starter on the golf course or something like that to keep them busy and have some purpose, or are they doing more profit, volunteer, combination of all of the above? What are you seeing?

Well, I am seeing a combination of all of the above, but let's pull some of the threads on that. I think that one of the things we're seeing more than ever before is this idea of staying connected to work if you like your work. Some people have to, by the way. They have no choice because they didn't do such a great job of saving for retirement, but there's more and more people we see saying, you know what, I enjoy my work a lot, but I don't wanna work quite as hard. I don't wanna put in a 60-hour week and I don't wanna necessarily work 5 days a week or even 6. I wanna work like 3 days a week. So, they're modifying their work schedule in a way that's not only good for them, but also good for the company that they may work for. We're also seeing, the largest number of entrepreneurs in women 50+. So we see women saying, you know what, I want to start my own thing. Maybe it's a kitchen table business, but maybe it's something bigger than that. We also see people starting nonprofits, things that they feel passionate about, or getting involved in a nonprofit that they're passionate about. I have a close friend who is a diabetic, and she wants to really help young people figure out how they can cope with their diabetes, type 1 diabetes, not type 2, more effectively. And so she got involved with a nonprofit that's focused on juvenile diabetes. I mean, there's a variety, there's like a bouquet of opportunities and options. The challenge is finding those opportunities and figuring it out for yourself. Now, working a little bit longer, by the way, there's a need for that in corporate America to have older adults stay in the workforce a little bit longer. It's not only good for your health and well-being, the social connections really make a difference, but it's also good for you in terms of your financial well-being. A couple more years to save and invest. Living on a fixed income is something that scares a lot of people. So having some income come in with more money to spend on discretionary things. So yeah, it has a lot of benefits. I know I'm 74 and my husband and I are both still working and loving every minute. Well, not every minute of it, but we're loving it in general. There are, of course, there are moments when we're like, oh, what are we doing? But in general, it's fantastic. We're passionate about it.

You sure are. That's for sure. I did a podcast with your husband Ken here earlier for The Barron Show. So hopefully folks listening to this will go back and listen to that episode as well. So this idea of continuing to work and the money side, when I was growing up, I'm in my 60s, it was about save, save, save, and then you retire and then you never work another day in your life. So that was sort of the idea. But there's definitely the younger generation is more about, I think, living in the moment. And yes, they want to save for retirement, but they don't want to save for the future at the expense of living now. So what are you seeing What thoughts do you have for financial professionals who are counseling and advising younger folks today about trying to strike that balance between, I want to live for today, I want to enjoy my life because none of us are guaranteed tomorrow, while at the same time, I don't want to be dumb about it either and turn 60 and realize I have no life savings and I have to keep working. How do you strike that balance? Or what are your thoughts on, on that potential conundrum?

Well, it depends on how young you're going. Let's look at Gen Z for a minute. They have gone through quite a bit. I mean, from a mental wellbeing point of view, they are struggling more than any other generation. That's not necessarily going away quickly, but they've been called the pragmatic generation. And so they are pragmatic. In fact, when they have financial resources, they are investing in their future. And if they choose to I call it taking a sabbatical from time to time. If they work with a trusted advisor of some sort and have the financial well-being to do that effectively, more power to them. And I would say that's not just true for Gen Z, but for millennials, for Gen Xers, even see baby boomers who are in that retirement age. They may take off some time, but then they may go back to work. And try something new, maybe try their hand at something they always felt passionate about. I have a friend who was a dentist when he was in his 50s. He said to me, you know, I decided to be a dentist when I was 18. I'm selling my practice, going back to school and becoming a psychologist. And he did. And he's now much older and very happy as a practicing psychologist.

Yeah. And as you know very well, historically we've had this idea of a 3-stage life model where the first, let's call it 20 years, we grow up, we, we learn, and then the next 30, 40 years we work. And then sometime after that we have retirement. So it's the 3 stages, but now it's, it's a multi-stage model. People call it various names. I call it the palette of life model where we're picking and choosing different flavors at different stages in life and we're segueing in and out and mixing processing things, and it's no longer this linear life model that I think some of us older folks had grown up in.

So it's a very different— life plan was very structured, very age and gender defined. So first you went to school, and that just didn't happen after a certain age, like let's say 23, 24. Then you worked and built a family, and that generally ended the day you turned 65. Then you retired, went on a cruise, and then you died. And that was pretty much the way life worked. But now that we have these extra years of life with average life expectancy right about 78 right now, what we see people doing is taking these concepts of education, work, and family and retirement and mixing them up throughout their lifespan. So what does that look like? People going back to school at 60, 60 or maybe even 80, people having second, third, fourth, even fifth careers, and people retiring, as you mentioned, Gen Z, you know, taking time off when they're in their 30s. So, this becomes more of a make-your-own-sunday, what we call the cyclic life plan. But, you know, it is kind of like choose your own way of life. And isn't that great? The options are Unlimited.

Let's talk about the unique financial planning considerations for female clients in, in the context of this idea of an extended healthspan and lifespan. So what would you say are some of the things that financial advisors should be thinking about when they're working with female clients that are unique to women, again, that have a longer lifespan and at the moment at least don't have a healthier, longer lifespan? What are some things we need to think about there?

First, I think that financial advisors need to own the fact that women think about their financial well-being and their financial future a little bit differently than men. Men in general, they do think about a number, like what's the number that I need to get to. Women think about it a little bit differently. They think about it in terms of the goals that they're trying to reach? Do I want to be able to afford to send my grandkids to college or my kids to college or help my kids buy a home? Or maybe it's caregiving for my mom and dad or whatever. There's these kinds of goals that they had. Also, to keep in mind the fact that women are more likely to put their own retirement in jeopardy by loaning money to their kids or grandkids or a family member that's in need. And I think helping women create some boundaries around that is probably a good idea. But in terms of their longevity and their increased lifespan and hopefully better matching their lifespan, to recognize a few things, and we've, we mentioned them a little earlier, but women live on average 6 years longer than men. They retire earlier than men, about 2 years earlier, they have two-thirds of the retirement savings as men in general, and they're often married to men older than them who get sick and require care from a financial well-being perspective when a woman is in her 60s, 70s, 80s, and beyond. And that creates a scenario that could be rather scary for a woman. While women have the financial knowledge when it comes to budgeting and basic skill sets for finance, they don't necessarily have the confidence or the knowledge when it comes to investing. And yet, from studies we've done at Age Wave, what we learned was the biggest regret that older women have is not investing more. So there's this disconnect between what they have and what they feel in terms of their confidence and the actions that they're taking. And that's probably not a healthy reality. I would also add that I think financial advisors need to understand the fact that women need to not only invest financially for their future, they need to invest in their health and well-being. To, in fact, hopefully spend less money on health and healthcare as they get older. Because investing in your health, like good food and exercise and getting the right amount of sleep, even when that costs dollars, that can actually end up saving you dollars in the end.

Are there any misconceptions around aging or retirement planning for women that you think need to be corrected?

Yeah, I do. I think that one of the things that I learned from the research I did for Ageless Aging is that retirement planning is not just about the money. There are many financial advisors that zero in on the money and don't talk about some of the other things, don't talk about the need for health and well-being, the need for having resources outside of the sleep and exercise and food and taking a look at things like social connection and purpose and even hormones for women and having resources that can help women plan more effectively for retirement that is enriching and full of life, but it's also financially secure. So, it's the idea of Recognizing, and we talked about this in some of the work we did for Edward Jones, is that it's not just about one thing. It's about this holistic recipe and women need to own it. And I would say financial advisors need to understand it and explore it and recognize how it impacts their female clients and even their male clients.

Let's assume I'm a woman and I have just finished reading your book. What do you want me to think as a result of reading your book? What do you want me to feel as a result of reading your book? And what do you want me to do as a result of reading your book?

I want you to think that you are in charge of your own health and well-being and that it's within your control and that there are action steps that you can take to really improve your quality of life as well as your quantity of life. So that's what I want you to think. What I want you to feel is more in charge. I want you to feel more energetic, more vital, more full of life, and more positive about your own aging process. Because one of the things that I learned in my research is that having a positive perspective on your own aging can actually add 7.5 years to your lifespan. And that's based on science. And what do I want you to do? Well, that's a really cool question. I love that. So I think it's different things for different people. But what I try to do in Ageless Aging is talk about some action steps and some hacks and some tips that are good for a variety of different people. So for instance, at the end of each chapter, I have, if you do one thing, try this. If you're a beginner, try this. If you're into, let's say, exercise for a while, try doing something like this. So I try to give action steps along the way for each of the holistic elements or ingredients in this recipe.. But I also try to show how that they all relate to one another. So I'd like you to feel good, think positively, and take action.

So as the author of the book, you've written the book, you did all the research, you talked to all these different people, you put a lot of your life experiences in there. Now that it's done, now that it's out there, has it changed you as a person? Has it changed you in any way in terms of how you approach life, how you approach the remaining years of your life?

Well, let me say, in the research that I did for Ageless Aging, I used myself as a guinea pig, and I tried a lot of different things based on that, some of which worked great, some of which not so great. You know, supplements, for example, was a great place that I did some positive experimenting. I found out that it wasn't until the year 2016 that the FDA said that women needed to be included in clinical trials. And by the way, they're still not always included. So what I learned was like breathtaking, actually. So it did change me in my basic understanding of how we need to take care of ourselves. The other thing that really was a huge deal for me was recognizing the fact that there are millions and millions of women who are dealing with the aches and pains and maybe a chronic condition like heart disease or diabetes, and they're feeling like some kind of an inflammatory disease, and that there are things, that there are steps they can take to really improve their lives. And it doesn't have to take forever. It doesn't have to cost $1 million, and they can really take control of their lives. And to me, that was such an optimistic, encouraging message.

Well, Maddie, as we wrap up here, is there any question that you wish I would have asked you, or any additional thought that you want to share here?

Well, the only thing I would say is a lot of people have been asking me, like, ageless aging, what does that mean? And why did you come up with that? And I definitely don't love the term anti-aging at all. And a lot of people are very negative on the word aging, which I don't even understand. But, you know, you see even professionals in the world of aging and longevity using the term longevity instead of aging. But what I liked about ageless was I looked it up in the dictionary and I saw ageless. The first word was timeless. And while we can't hold back the hands of time, that's not happening, we can actually hold back some of the physical decline that we associate with the years that we live. And at the same time, embrace the positive that comes with aging, things like having more resilience, having more wisdom, having more experience. And that just resonated for me. And I really said, hey, that's me.

I'm ageless. This idea of longevity. So Silicon Valley has really gotten a hold of this concept. And there are certainly folks out there, researchers, who are suggesting that the first person to live to 150 has already been born. There's also people saying that if you can live for another 20 years, you'll probably live for another 100 years or something like that. And can we actually, will we have technology that will enable us to almost live indefinitely? So A, do you think that's even possible? And B, if it were possible, do you think that would be a good thing?

You're asking a very loaded question. First of all, we're already seeing more and more people living to 100. So when it comes to financial planning and health planning, I think your listeners need to own the fact that they should think about the idea of living that 100-year life path. That's what they should plan for. So yeah, that's already happening. So 120, that's what they say is the limit, the Hayflick limit to longevity right now? And can that be expanded? I think it can. Will there be biohackers at the cutting edge, mostly guys, by the way, who are really trying to explore that territory? 100%. And they're willing to put millions and millions and millions of dollars to it. So will this be something that the average person will be able to afford, not right away for sure, certainly not for a long time. But who wants to live longer if you don't have your health and well-being? So my perspective is, why don't we focus on increasing our healthspan? Let's have it match our lifespan so that in the last few days of our lives, we pass away or die or whatever language you want to use around it and feeling pretty well. We literally die of old age. And wouldn't that be a great thing? To be able to bring joy and health and vitality and energy through 99.9% of our lifespan. So, yeah, great to increase your lifespan, but let's first focus on increasing our healthspan.

Good way to wrap up there. So, Mattie, what's the best way for folks to connect with you? I know you've got the new book out. What's the best way for folks to stay in touch with all the great work you're doing?

The book is available wherever books are sold. They can also go to my website, and I'm sure you'll list it. It's maddiedaikwal.com, and also agewave.com, which I'm co-founder of. So yeah, easy to get in touch.

Yeah, and there's great research on the Age Wave website as well that's available to the public for free. So appreciate you putting all that great research out there too. So, all right, Maddie, this has been great. Thank you. A terrific new book. Encourage folks to get a copy of it as well.

So thank you. Thank you, Steve. Appreciate it. Loved being here with you.

All right, that's all for today. Make sure you like and share this podcast through your favorite social platforms. And for more great podcasts, visit us at barons.com/podcast. Take care and be safe.

This podcast was brought to you by Wells Fargo Advisors. Looking for a firm your clients can't outgrow? Wells Fargo Advisors offers financial advisors full balance sheet solutions with wealth planning, investment products, banking, and lending that meet the needs of affluent to ultra-high net worth clients. Build your practice your way and on your schedule with independent and employee model options designed to meet your needs today and tomorrow. Learn more at joinwfadvisors.com.