Making the Shift From Entrepreneur to Leader

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How do you go from being an entrepreneur and company founder to being the leader your company needs for its next stage of growth? Hi everyone, I'm business coach Steve Sandusky for Barron's Advisor, The Way Forward Podcast. My guest today is Antonia Hock. Antonia spent 6 years as the global head of the Ritz-Carlton Leadership Center, and for the 2 decades prior to the Ritz-Carlton, She held executive positions for tech giants, including Microsoft, HP, and Siemens. Her multi-industry background in technology, hospitality, and consulting has shaped her unique perspective and philosophy around creating exceptional customer experiences and building world-class leadership teams. In today's conversation, we explore how to become the leader that your company needs for its next stage of growth. So let's get started with Antonia Hock. I heard you say that the traditional model of leadership is dead. So I would love to know what killed it and what is it being replaced by?

Well, I know that's a big statement to start with, but I think over the last few years, particularly obviously with COVID a lot of principles that leaders have relied upon that have been time-tested have really been under scrutiny. And I think our employees in particular, and for those of you that have read my work or have heard me speak, I really don't love the word employee to start with, but I think there's a referendum really between quiet quitting and all the conversations right now about hybrid work and return to work and what does that mean. Employees are really renegotiating their psychological contract.. And in order for leaders to continue to excel and get the best out of their employees and stakeholders, there has to be a shift in, in what leadership discipline looks like. Employees have killed the traditional leader, and anyone that's still clinging to that paradigm is going to find it increasingly difficult to get results from their teams and their businesses.

Now, Did COVID kill it, or were these certain trends that were already in place and then COVID just really accelerated it?

You know, I'm giving a keynote next week, and that's actually one of my slides. It's literally the title of one of my slides. COVID didn't change anything, it accelerated everything. So a lot of trends that were going to play out, call it over the next 5 years or 10 years, COVID just compressed those down like building a diamond, right? And so what we're seeing is generational change, all kinds of requests, and Gen Z. I spend a lot of time talking about Gen Z in the workplace and the purpose-driven movement and, you know, all of these techniques that leaders need to have now around harnessing authenticity, things maybe if you went back 5 years, we would— they would just not be part of the conversation.

Yeah, and you talk about Gen Z. So as we think about what are there, like 5 generations in the workplace today? And if you're a leader, it's likely that you might be managing someone who's 1 or 2 generations older than you and maybe 1 or 2 generations younger than you. And I think that's really the first time in history we've ever had that wide disparity of age groups in the workplace. So becoming and being a leader today is, it's a tough job.

It's a very tough job. And as much as we've heard about sort of the employee revolution and what employees want and need and burnout, wellness, purpose, and all of these things, we haven't spent quite as much time talking about leaders. And, you know, I see often right now a lot of information around empathy, right? That's the current conversation, being an empathetic leader. And while I think that is very important, clearly with everything everyone's been through, there's a much bigger playbook that needs to be out there. And, you know, I love— I see all the time how to become more empathetic, and I always have to smile because I'm not sure you can teach empathy. I think you can enhance what someone already has, but I think everyone as a leader needs to harness their own authenticity and really bring that forward. And that could be on a spectrum of different traits, not just that one.

You mentioned traits, so let's compare and contrast leadership traits. So let's talk about what leadership used to be and what do you see leadership needing to be today and going forward. What are some of the compare and contrasts there?

I think I'll really focus on two big trends, two things that I see have been really harnessed by historic leaders, and then where is that going today and how do you take that kind of call it old school approach and morph it into something that's going to work as we move forward. One of the first ones is old school leaders are really focused on delegating, delegating, delegating, right? And that's still an important trait. However, today there's so much more emphasis on teaching. Just handing someone a task and empowering them to do it does not mean you've equipped them to do it. And there's so much more focus today on how do you teach teach people while delegating. There's this movement around stronger mentors, everyone having a board of directors. So old school leaders used to say, here's your job, I'm handing it to you, go do it. New school leaders are more about ensuring that they've taught skills. And some of those are soft skills. It's not just about how fast you can do the job. Did you get to the end result? It's how you got there. So really a very different kind of a movement towards some softer skills, while still producing results. And that can be tricky as leaders start to cross that chasm. The second big trend is the move towards purpose. That if we were to go back 5 years, it would be more of Gordon Gekko, right? Like, we have to just go take the hill. It's results, results, results. We're going to get there. Now, in order to get to that place, you've really got to be focused on a purpose. People want to do meaningful work. That's how you're going to drive the best work. That's a new muscle for a lot of people. All.

So the first one there about moving from delegating to teaching— so something that we've seen here in the last 10, 15, 20 years is outsourcing. And I don't mean like sending stuff over to China to be manufactured. I mean outsourcing to freelancers, essentially another form of delegating. So rather than having an employee, I have someone that is a freelancer. I'm outsourcing this project to them. How do you think about the leadership challenge when you're not dealing with an employee, but say an independent contractor?

First and foremost, for me, it's expectations. I mean, that's just classic, right? You have to be laser-focused on why you're outsourcing. What are you expecting in no uncertain terms? What does success look like? Really having that clear, specific brief when you go out to outsource. First and foremost. And the second thing, which we can talk more about in a little bit, is having a really firm brand identity, having a signature, knowing exactly what you're going to be known for before you engage an outsourcer. Because I feel like a lot of outsourcing, you have to get them up to speed so quickly, and whatever project they're working on for you is ultimately needs to feed your brand. So you better have a really, really clear, focused perspective.

Now, the second one you mentioned there was purpose. And I know anytime I have a conversation with an advisor about purpose or some of these, quote, "softer things," sometimes you get an eye roll, okay? Now, you and I agree 100% on the importance of purpose. So, how do you think about that as a leader? What is their role in defining the purpose of the organization and instilling a sense of purpose among all of the stakeholders?

Purpose for me is really connected into a degree of discipline. So every business, at the end of the day, I think if a— as a founder, a CEO, a stakeholder can connect back to why they do what they do. Who does it serve? What is your legacy? Really big picture questions. What do you want the people in your charge, your stakeholders, your employees? What do you want them to feel about the work they do? And as a founder and a CEO, if you aren't thinking about that, you are ultimately at some point going to hit a really rocky patch. Because today, a lot of consumers are very focused on doing business with businesses that match their values, that have a purpose beyond selling or servicing whatever their primary revenue-generating mechanism is. And purpose is really critical for that. My favorite way to really think about that is to go and think about the consumers you serve and why you got into your business in the first place, or why you joined the company you joined in the first place, and start to crystallize that. That needs to be something you put on paper. It needs to be something that people really start to buy into, whether that's how you onboard them, that's what you hire them for, that's how you vet the work you're going to do. I love to ask ask people, why are you doing a certain thing? Why? Why are we having this Zoom meeting? Why are we doing this project? We so often today, I think coming out of COVID we've been in such execution mode and so many people are in survival mode, we stopped asking why. And it's that why that will start to get you to that place. And then it's the discipline to pull it through all aspects of your business. Top to bottom, how you message, how you sell, how you take care of your employees, how your branding looks and feels out in the market. You've got to pull it all the way through.

As you were talking about purpose there, it just reminded me of a podcast I was listening to this morning, and they were talking about FIRE, which stands for Financial Independence Retire Early. And it's a movement that's been in place for some time. People save a whole bunch of their money and then they retire when they're 35 or 40 or 45. And quote, "never work again." Well, it didn't quite work out that way. But as I was thinking about what you were saying and purpose, I'm thinking, okay, if you've got your purpose right, if you've been able to infuse it throughout the organization, then let's say you have an employee who has reached financial independence, but rather than retire early, because most of the people that do FIRE, they're like, I want to make a boatload of money and then I'm out of here because I don't like my work. But if you create an organization that is purpose-driven and the people that are there are there because of the purpose, because they believe in the mission of the firm, then even when they reach financial independence, they're going to say, "I love what I do and I love for whom I'm doing it." Maybe that would be maybe one way to measure if you've really got it right.

100%. And, you know, the other thing I love to say is it's not all about the work. That's one of the things modern leaders are really getting right. I'm seeing more and more of them understand this. There's time taken out for people to spend real quality time focused on doing whatever that purpose is. So, you know, I love— I was just talking to a couple of people at big outdoor outfitters. A lot of outdoor outfitters are very passionate about conservation, sustainability, and outdoor lifestyles, and taking the time for their employees to really invest and be outside because that's their core part of their core business, right? It's providing goods for people that do that anyway. It becomes this kind of virtuous cycle of loving what you do, believing in the product, also believing in, in the mission to get people outside. And while that's kind of an obvious cycle, right, because it's an easy way to connect, every business can find that virtuous cycle that makes people really want to stay with the work.

Yeah, and we did a show with Maria Ross recently, and she talked about empathy. And one example she gave was with REI, the outdoor retailer, outdoor apparel and climbing equipment and hiking and camping gear. The story that she related was years ago, REI was open on Black Friday, the day after Thanksgiving, biggest shopping day of the year. One day in a meeting, one of the employees said to their manager, it's like Well, here we are, we're this outdoor company, and on the day after Thanksgiving, which most people have off from work, this is like one of our busiest days of the year, and we're here schlepping all these orders, trying to get them out the door. It's like, is that really part of who we are? Aren't we about get outside and enjoy nature? Can we maybe have this day off? And then long story short, went up the chain of command, senior leadership said, You're right, that's who we are. We're about nature, get outdoors. And so they started the, I think it was the Get Outside campaign, and they're not open on the day after Thanksgiving anymore because they're trying to live true to that mission, that purpose that they have. And so I think that was a great example of really living that purpose. And people that work there, I'm imagining, are like, you know, this company is walking the talk here.

And you know, the other thing that's great about it, it makes it easier to hire. Back to that, like that virtuous cycle, you become known for something. You attract people that want to be a part of that movement. I talk all the time about brands as movements. You know, you're crossing the chasm when you're a movement and people think about your brand in that kind of a, of a way. And I think REI is a great example of that, but you attract people that want to be on that mission with you. It lowers your turnover, especially when it's authentic inside of the organization. It has real financial impact.

Let's talk about some specific leaders. So we have Tim Cook, who succeeded Steve Jobs at Apple. Both of them very different leaders, yet both of them would be considered hugely successful. We've got Elon Musk, who is singular, unique. There's really no one else like him. He's not following any leadership playbook out there. How do you think about striking a balance between being a leader who exhibits and lives by traditional leadership principles that have been time-tested and continue to work versus thinking about who am I as a unique individual, what my personality is, what my characteristics are, what my life experience is, and applying that in my leadership style. What's the balance between the traditional, what works, and who I need to show up authentically as myself.

Yeah, I think we're really living in a time where authenticity is a major attractor for a lot of people. It plays into so many cultural movements that are a big part of our world today. People want to follow authentic humans they can really relate to. And while there's a, a playbook, and as a practitioner, There are some things leaders will always have to do, whether that's operational excellence or that's guiding the financial performance of a company. That's really today to be successful, got to be balanced against people feeling they can connect to you, that you understand who they are, they're seen, no matter what level of the organization you're at. One individual you didn't mention, I happen to be a huge fan of Satya Nadella. I was at Microsoft just as he was coming on board, and the way in which he opened his life up in a very thoughtful way to tens of thousands of people was incredible. And at the same time, he was harnessing a leadership playbook to produce excellent financial results. So he's a great example of that strong balance. When you're sharing your brianne recipe, plus you're also doing some pretty phenomenal things in terms of product innovation, people will love that opportunity to follow that kind of a leader.

Well, it's interesting that you mentioned him because I read his book a few years ago. And I look at all the success that Microsoft has had since he became the CEO and compare that to Steve Ballmer prior to him, and of course, Bill Gates prior to that. And I keep asking myself, what did he do? He's sort of this quiet leader that somehow he galvanized this old-line tech company, and they totally turned the corner, and now one of the largest companies in the world. So I still don't know how he did it, which maybe is even more amazing that it wasn't about the personality. He's not an Elon Musk. He's not a Steve Jobs. He's not any of those kinds of people, but yet, he was able to use his own style, his own personal story, and able to connect and turn that company around. I think that, even though it has been reported, that's probably one of the most underreported success stories out there is how he did it.

I agree. And, you know, I think one of the things you said there that, in my experience, is really part of the key, he was a quiet leader. And, you know, I feel sometimes we love, we're attracted to the Elon Musks, right? They make great news stories. They're, you know, big and bold, and they're always doing something kind of really compelling and interesting. And Satya is that solid, smart, quiet, thoughtful leader. And I feel, you know, it's back to different kinds of styles. There is no one big right way, but I think part of his magic is that he stayed very true to his own personal lens on what is leadership.

And it's not about him. He's not trying to— put the spotlight on him, he shines the spotlight out on everyone else. So a lot of the folks listening to this are company founders, they're entrepreneurs. And many of them would say to me, I had to start my own company because I'm a terrible employee. Nobody would ever hire me. Yet they become successful and they build a multimillion-dollar business, a $5 million, $50 million, $100 million revenue business. And now they've got to get serious about leadership. What are some of your thoughts on how you make the shift from being a founder and an entrepreneur to now being someone who has to lead this company? How do— what do we need to learn? How do we need to think about making that transition?

First and foremost, I would say really nailing the purpose, the culture, what kind of culture you want to have, being deliberate about it and thoughtful about it. Because as you move to CEO, you will have to hire.. And ensuring you hire well is one of the very first things to being able to free you up to go on to be a CEO and to lead a company. Companies ultimately are defined by a culture that drives who they are, their identity. So focusing in first on that, especially coming from the entrepreneur mindset, because what allows you to build a great company, get it off the ground, bootstrap it, drive the revenue, drive the results. You've really got to shift that mindset as you start to think about bringing on employees, because they want to join a movement, they want to join a culture, they want to join something that has a clear identity in the market. And I find entrepreneurs, sometimes that happens by accident, or sometimes it doesn't happen at all. They're just used to driving results, and you've got to cross the chasm. And that's your first important go-do before you start hiring, because I also see people hire very early and then they inevitably make an incorrect hire or a hire that's a bad culture fit, or, you know, they don't get exactly what they thought they were going to get. Now there's all kinds of sort of upheaval and churn. Start by getting those things very deliberately nailed before you hire. That's my first sort of blueprint piece.

A couple things I'd comment on that. One is, as you think about the hiring, don't just hire people that look just like you and that have the same personality traits as you, because you're unique and you've got a certain skill set. You don't want to fill an organization with a bunch of clones of you. You need to find people who complement where you're weak, because obviously there's lots of different aspects to running a successful business. You've got to have top-notch people in each of those different roles so that they all work together. And that's another area I want to touch on here in a few minutes, is that executive suite, that C-suite, how do we get them to work well together? A second thing I would also comment on is not everybody's cut out to be a CEO. So just because you're the founder of the company doesn't mean that you're going to be the CEO. I think the most recent example of that is John Foley at Peloton. He founded the company, huge growth. He becomes a multibillionaire during COVID and then the stock craters, drops 90%, and now he's completely out. Of the company. I'm not trying to throw him under the bus or suggest that he's a bad leader, but he's an entrepreneur. He's a guy who can start companies, who can rally the troops, who can get funding, but he may not be the Nadella at Microsoft that can continue the growth. I mean, there's companies, you know, as Peter Thiel would say, that can go from 0 to 1, and then there's those that can go from 1 to N. So ask yourself, am I a 0 to 1 kind of leader? Where I want to get it going? And then am I also a one-to-end where I keep the train rolling? Those are two different skills. Very hard to find that in the same person.

I'd agree. You know, I think also one of the things you're really hitting on is that level of self-awareness. What motivates you? I firmly believe people are driven by things, by passion. And some people are really passionate founders. They love ideas. They love the thrill of getting something up off the ground to that first plateau or maybe that second big plateau or shelf. But they're not the people that drive great joy from what I will call farming and scaling. And those are, you know, back to just having culture, being self-aware, and also just really understanding passion. There's nothing worse than being the leader of a business and you're doing things you're no longer passionate about. And people don't spend a lot of time, I think, thinking about that ahead of time.

In your experience, what have you found are good ways for someone who says, look, I really want to be a better leader? Do they go hire a coach? Do they go to some training? Do they go to Harvard Business School Executive Education program? All of the above? Do they read books? Do they work with you? I mean, what are some different ways that people can become a great leader, at least get what they need, and whether they become one or not, you know, that's—

jury's out on that. First of all, understand how you learn. Some people learn very, very well from coaches. Some people learn in a classroom setting. You've really got to understand— back to self-awareness— what is your learning style? And the other thing I'm a very big fan of, I think has worked very well with entrepreneurs, learning from someone who has— is maybe further down the path than you, but understands the prescription and the tactics. I've been to a lot of leadership training that I have found very theoretical. It's very case study driven, and there's value in that. But at the end of the day, we all have to go back and execute. So execution and understanding how to translate leadership strategy into execution. What are those actual tactics that you can use to drive team connectivity, to drive purpose, to drive results. Those are skills that can be taught. And so I would say to leaders that are looking to become better leaders, make sure anything that you're taking on has that execution element. It's not just theory, or you are not left to connect the dots yourself. Here's a great case study. What did you learn from it? Go figure it out, how to apply it. There's actual connection for you.

Now, we're all going to make mistakes along the way. So in your experience, what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see first-time CEOs make, and even maybe longtime CEOs make?

A couple of things. One, I would say there's a definite move towards experience, right? There's an experience movement, especially if a product you sell is a commodity. So, you know, mortgage industry is a great example. You don't get the opportunity to decide specifically what products you're going to bring to market. There's a set of rules, standards, regulations around what you, what you sell. So the way you're going to need to differentiate yourself is to really have a signature. What is that overarching signature for your business? And I see a lot of first-time— again, a lot of first-time CEOs, and even CEOs that have been enrolled for a while, are not thinking about that shift, or I call them an ostrich— they're ignoring the shift thinking it will go away— or first-time CEOs, it's just happening to them. You're gonna have an experience that people will ultimately have with whatever you're selling or whatever service you're providing. It's just a question whether you're deliberate about it or whether or not it's just happening to your business. So as a CEO, back to being very thoughtful about culture, I would say the same Be very thoughtful about your leadership style. Be very thoughtful about your overall experience that you're bringing to market.

Now, it's been popular in recent years to celebrate mistakes, to celebrate failures, to embrace those, because that's the only way that we can grow and we can be innovative, is if we try different things. And sure, we're going to fail. So how do you think about that in terms of the way to recognize failure, to encourage risk-taking, where is that balance between, well, we don't want everyone to feel like, fine, fail 50 times and it's still okay, versus let's be a little more thoughtful about what we're trying. I mean, there's a balance in there. How do you think about that?

So I think strategic failure is an important growth lever. And what I mean by strategic failure doesn't mean all failure is created equal, right? That we just want to encourage people to go out and take crazy risks and that's all okay, because that's not a model that really works either. You can become paralyzed by that type of a model. My experience has always been encourage people to bring forward ideas and thoughts and be creative problem solvers, and that, that style will be welcome. But in order to get the green light to go take the risk, you have to have thought it through. It means it needs to have, you know, a business case behind it. Now, I'm a fan of brevity, and, you know, if you bring me a business case that's 60 slides, I know you don't have mastery of the topic. I'm a one-slide person. Everyone that's worked with me or for me over the years knows I feel like if you can't put the entire case, your concepts, your thoughts, and the why behind it on a single slide, you aren't far enough along in your thinking to be able to actually— for me to bet on that. So I need to see like the frame and the thought. And then even if you can see as a leader, you can see holes in it. Sometimes it's a great strategic lever to let your team step through that or let an individual step through that and find the holes. Because there's a part of human learning that needs to learn through experience. Just like being a parent, right? You can't save your children from doing every, you know, thing that they're going to learn from. This is the same kind of model. And I think there's not a lot of leaders out there that think in that way, that you should let people have some of those learning experiences on their own while keeping them safe. Anyone that's read some of my work as well will know I really feel strongly leaders have to be that face. You don't put somebody out there, say, hey, here's a project, you know, it's risky, go do it. And then when it doesn't turn out quite right, you throw them under the bus, right? You've got to be able to pick and choose risk carefully so people can learn without paying consequences that will earn you a reputation as the opposite of a good leader.

And I know some companies actually have a failure budget, so they have a line item for failure just as a way to highlight that, that, hey, We're going to try some things, and this isn't the end of your career if you try something and it doesn't work. So I don't know if you have any thoughts on a, quote, failure budget or not.

Great to have one of those. I probably wouldn't publicize it. And the reason for that is I'd like for people to feel the responsibility of risk. And so if you feel there's, like, a huge safety net, you may not feel the same urgency or sense of responsibility because you know I'll just be part of the budget. They've got me. It's great to have it protect people, but I think part of leadership is being able to take risk. Not everybody will have a safety net.

I love how you frame that because this idea of celebrating failure has always rubbed me the wrong way, and I couldn't quite articulate it the way that you just did as to why. And I think you just nailed it in terms of, I don't want people to feel like they have no skin in the game. That if they fail, oh, it's okay, it's just the company's money. But what you're saying is, if you're going to come up with this idea, I want you to feel responsible for it. And if it doesn't work, you need to feel like there's a little bit of pain there. Because if I'm the owner of the company, I'm going to feel it. Okay? I want you to share a little bit of that because it's going to make you be more thoughtful about these ideas. Again, there's the balance there between you don't want it to be too much because then no one's going to take any risks. You probably maybe want to give them some of the upside as well, because if you're going to ask them to feel some of the responsibility, they may want to have some of the upside of it as well. So again, delicate balancing act. Another example of how leadership is just really hard to strike the right balance on just one area like that.

Practice. Leadership is like anything else. It's a muscle. And if you're not practicing it every day, especially with developing people, which is— I just read a report yesterday that's the number one reason people are leaving right now is lack of opportunity, lack of I thought it would be, you know, remote hybrid work, cause that's getting all the noise right now, but lack of development and investment. And as a leader, we know one of the best ways people learn is through doing and through being in the moment with another person. Um, you can go to a lot of courses, but learning how to teach and learning how to grow people. And that's a great example through strategic failures, one lever for growth. People learn really well that way when it's done right.

Yeah, and this idea of continuous learning, that is for every single person in the organization, not just the leadership team, but every person in the organization. And I love organizations who make that very clear that we're a learning organization, you know, another concept from 20, 30 years ago. And I think that's so key, particularly in this world as change moves so fast. So let's talk about— we touched on this briefly— the idea of the C-suite, the executive suite, and how do we get the executive team to work together? What are some of your thoughts on having a cohesive, highly functioning executive team?

I'm sure I'm going to sound like a broken record on this podcast for a minute, but, but first and foremost, when you have a great culture up front that's got really, really clear non-negotiables, it makes it easier to hire at every level, but particularly with your strategic hires in your C-suite. Where, you know, there has to be a working relationship where there is a shared point of view. Doesn't mean everyone has, you know, groupthink or the same exact lens or same set of experiences, but there has to be a shared platform. Because if you hire— I see this all the time— you hire purely for skill. I'm hiring a CFO and I'm hiring the best CFO possible in the market right now. Well, if that CFO cannot get along because they share a very different way of work style or very different set of values, it doesn't really matter that they were the very best available to you because they're going to create so much dissonance in the boardroom. You will not get things done. So it's that balance between great kind of cultural fit first, skill fit, and then also really making sure that your C-level team has time to connect. It's not always like we're just coming in to just do the job. Making sure you're doing the retreats, you're allowing the team to co-create their vision together. And then the last thing I'll say, which people don't talk about as often, is comp. As a sales leader most of my career, I really believe compensation drives behavior. And having interconnected compensation metrics that don't allow you to create a silo or a fiefdom is very important. So I would put all those together in kind of that mixing pot of how do you get your C-suite all on the same page.

Yeah, people do what you pay them to do, and so that comp has to be aligned with the overall goals of the organization. Now, another aspect of the leadership team is conflict. In that the executive team is not always going to agree with each other on strategic decisions. How do you think about how the executive team should deal with conflict when 2 people or 3 people disagree on an important issue?

I really believe strongly in getting down to facts. So oftentimes when you see disagreement, there'll be viewpoints. I love to encourage people to step back before it gets too heated A lot of people are very passionate, especially when you get to disagreement in the boardroom. I've seen more people come to real heated blows in the boardroom than I think almost anywhere else. So first and foremost, removing the emotion and really getting down to the facts, and facts on all sides of the conversation, is kind of the first thing. I think it's the first step towards anything. Where are the facts behind the discussion? And then After that, really agreeing as a leadership team and maybe laying the groundwork early. We won't always agree, but we're going to work it through in the room and we're not going to bring it back to our teams. I had a leader, um, actually at Microsoft tell me in, in a session one time where we were having some really big conversation, what we do in this room has to stay in this room. And as a leader, you have to have the discipline to do that. And I've seen so many leaders come out of boardrooms, knowing when, you know, the decision's finally been made by someone and you didn't get the outcome you were looking for, you don't pull that toxic behavior all the way through your team. So agreeing to disagree in the room, sticking with the facts, trying to remove the emotion from the conversation, which is easier said than done. But again, you didn't get to the C-suite because you don't have a toolkit. You've got to have the discipline to do that and to know when to step back And if there are challenges, personality challenges or other challenges, that might be an opportunity to bring in some coaching and to really think about how do you grow some new skills. It's also an opportunity for C-suite leaders to think about who needs to develop in that room and what do they need to develop.

Yeah, and I think one thing that underpins everything you're talking about there is trust, that there has to be trust among the people in that room.

Agreed. As much as That's an ideal state, and I wish that for every C-suite. I've seen a lot of dysfunction, particularly as we've come through COVID. So in the absence of absolute trust, you also just have to have guardrails and ground rules that say, no matter what, this is how we operate as a team, and it's definitive.

Well, let's switch gears here for a minute, and I know that you are a mountain climber. So I would love to hear some thoughts from you about your mountain climbing journey, some of the lessons that you've learned out in the mountains, out in the wilderness, and do you apply some of those in your work? And how can the rest of us apply that in our work as well?

No, for me, the whole journey started, uh, during COVID I hadn't done any real climbing, and, you know, the closing of gyms and the shutdown drove me outside, probably with a lot of people. And I'm a very competitive, goal-oriented person, and the more The more I got into being outside, the more I wanted to take it further and further and further. And I just discovered this real love for rock climbing, mountain climbing, mountaineering. And I set a goal for myself to summit Mount Whitney. I gave myself— I was already reasonably physically fit, so I'll just say that up front. I gave myself 90 days to be ready. And for everyone listening, Mount Whitney, the highest 14er in the contiguous 48 states. So that very high summit, and it was only the second time I'd ever done a 14er. And it's just back to, you talk about lessons, preparation, but also prepared to take a calculated risk. I went with a guide, right? So I knew I had back to like, you know, if you're gonna, you're going to take on a big goal, make sure you have the right team, make sure you have the right preparation. And I feel like there's some really strong lessons there. Around business. I set myself a big goal, but I also had a team. I also had a plan. I also knew there would be risk. I knew I would have to exert some mental discipline, just like we have to do every day in business.

Yeah. As you and I were talking before we actually started the show here, I climbed some mountains as well. And I think there are so many applications for that. Just the discipline of being in the mountains, the preparation, just getting your pack ready, identifying what do you have to have in your pack? How much food do you need to take? What clothing do you need to wear? How do you be prepared for bad weather? And you have to balance that with, well, I don't want to have a 60-pound pack if I don't have to, you know, by putting every possible thing in there. So you have to weigh the risk between, well, do I really want to take that parka or could I get by with just a regular puffy kind of thing? So, so many applications. What I also love about it is when you're in the mountains, it just strips away everything except the essentials of life. It's like everything I need to survive, I carry on my back. And it really gets you back to the basics. And I think so often our life is so comfortable. You and I, pretty much I think everyone listening to this, we have reasonably comfortable lives. And yet when you go out in the mountains and you're sleeping in a tent and you're on a glacier and it's 20 degrees out or 0 degrees and it's 40, 50 mile an hour winds and you're, you're trying to drink some coffee over a stove, it's like you're really getting down to the basics and it just keeps you humble and grounded. So I encourage people. You don't have to climb mountains, but definitely get out there and do some different things that really challenge you within limits to just strip away all the comforts that we have and just get back to what's really real and meaningful. I don't know if you've had that experience as well.

100%. And one of the things I love that you just said, it's an opportunity to think about your plan A, B, C, D, E, because things will happen to you when you're outside. Even if you're just going on a hike with your dog for a few miles, you might get caught in a rainstorm or you might need to take care of something. It requires you to think about what happens if you get someplace and there's no cavalry coming behind you to save you. That's so applicable to helping sharpen that saw at work too. That's one of my favorite questions to ask, and I think it's come from the mountain. Like, what happens if this all falls apart on us?

Yeah, having thought through what the backup plan is— and funny you should mention about the backup plan. I was— I just sent out an email today, and one of the things that I mentioned was a quote from Chris Hadfield, who is a former astronaut. He wrote a very popular book, and he talked about astronaut training. And he said, one of the things that was always drilled into us is to ask ourselves, what's the next thing that could kill me? And so, of course, being an astronaut, you know, there's a lot of things that could kill you. And so, they're always planning for plan B and plan C and plan D and just knowing what they would do. Because if you're out in space and something goes wrong, you may not have a lot of time to think about it. So, same thing out in the wilderness is plan ahead of time. What could go wrong? How can I be reasonably prepared for that? So, a lot of life lessons there. So, I appreciate that. Antonia, we're gonna wrap up here. I've got one more question I wanna ask you, but before I get to that, for folks that are listening to this, what's the best way for them to connect with you or learn more about you?

Best thing is to go to my website, uh, or follow me on LinkedIn. The website's really easy cuz it's my name.com. There's some great opportunity there to sign up for newsletters. Uh, in a few weeks we'll be launching some private webcasts and also, uh, some private offers. It'll just be a lot of interesting content insights. Industry-specific insights. So that's a great place to go. And I love to post on LinkedIn. It's one of my favorite vehicles about climbing, about business, about leadership, all kinds of different content.

Excellent. All right, well, final question here, and this is a question that came from my previous guest, and interestingly, it fits exactly with what we're talking about here, uh, at the end of our conversation. So So this person asked, if you could go camping with somebody, somebody who is either alive or dead, who would it be and why?

You know, I'd probably— especially today— I'd probably pick David Bowie. I think he would be fascinating to go camping with.

For sure.

Talk about unique. I guarantee you we would have a great time. And talk about living through so many experiences. And, you know, I've always heard people people sometimes ask me about my career and I say I'm an experience collector. And that is something that's just been really important to me. So I believe— I think David Bowie would give me a really, really great experience out camping. We definitely have some good music.

Yeah, well, I would definitely want to tag along on that trip. All right, Antonia, this has been fantastic. I appreciate it, and thank you for taking time to be show today.

Thank you. It was fabulous. Thanks for the opportunity.

There are a couple things here that Antonia stressed that are really crucial to being a great leader. One is purpose, and the second is culture. When you are clear on the purpose, that helps define your culture. And when you have those two things in sync, that essentially becomes an operating system that underpins the key decisions decisions that you make as a leader. But be warned, getting to that level of clarity takes significant self-reflection and self-awareness. All right, that's all for today. Make sure you like and share this podcast through your favorite social platforms. And for more great podcasts, visit us at barons.com/podcast. Take care and be safe.

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