Saundra Davis: Using Money to Honor Your Values and Fuel Your Vision

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The most important part of the discovery process is what clients discover about themselves, not what you discover about them. Hi everyone, I'm business coach Steve Sandusky for Barron's Advisor, The Way Forward Podcast. My guest today is Sandra Davis. Sandra is a U.S. Navy veteran, a financial coach, educator, and consultant who is nationally recognized as an expert in the financial coaching field and for her work with community-based organizations that focus on asset building for the working poor. She is the founder and executive director of Sage Financial Solutions, an organization that develops comprehensive financial capability programs for low and moderate income communities throughout the United States. She holds a master's degree in financial planning from Golden Gate University, where she is currently a distinguished adjunct professor in the personal financial planning program. In today's conversation, we explore the concept of self-discovery, both what the client discovers about themselves and the advisor's journey of self-discovery, and how they intertwine to create a meaningful advisor-client relationship that leads to positive outcomes. I had a beautiful conversation with Sandra,, and she shares some wonderful insights that I think will deeply resonate with you. And be sure to listen to the end as she describes the idea behind the cup with no handle. With that, please enjoy my conversation with Sandra Davis. Let's start with your teenage years, and I know that you didn't necessarily have the easiest of upbringings, so I'd love to hear a little bit about what your teenage years were like and then how those experiences shaped you as you moved into adulthood?

I was born and raised in San Francisco, and my mom— I'm one of five— and my mother worked for a very wealthy family in San Francisco, and she also worked at their store. My mom was able to buy us a home, and she was— of course, this was in the, uh, late '60s, early '70s, right? So it's very different. But I went from being this really super protected, safe kid with living in a house in San Francisco to being a homeless teenager. So I was a straight-A student, college-bound, and some disruptions happened in my life that caused a very different situation. And what that did to me first was really wrecked my perspective around the idea of security, right? And so when you ask, how did that shape me as an adult? I remember when I first became a financial planner, I did the Money Habitudes card deck, really popular game that kind of helps you navigate your habits and your attitudes. And I had no cards for security. And I realized that for me, money didn't mean security. So, there was no such thing as security for me. So, when I think about what that has meant to me and how it shaped me as an adult, there's a couple of things. The first thing is I had to unlearn the idea of spending as quickly as I make money. It was just a real— since there was no security, save for what? Saving wasn't a thing. Thinking about the future, the financial future, wasn't a thing. I would work, I would spend, and I would work and I would spend. And I've never really been a luxurious lifestyle, but it was comfortable. But I joined the Navy at 17. After I dropped out of high school, took my GED, joined the Navy. And of course, then there's this life of everything is provided for you, but they also dictate every aspect of your life, right? So the places that it shaped was that after I became an adult, it was really important to me to shape my own decisions. So I think the things that really made that stand out is that both of those experiences shaped my decision to become a financial professional. For one, because I knew that I didn't know much about money and most of the people I knew didn't know much about money. And so I joined this field with the idea that if I know better, I can help other people know better. And of course, everybody knows that when you know better, you do better. That's sarcasm. That was really what shaped how I navigate and how I navigated this career change, which quite frankly I did well into my 40s. But I think that the most important aspect of it is that even with the challenges and even with the struggles, some of which that I still have today with financial behaviors, when you know better, you at least have the opportunity to do better. And defining what better means to you is the key. And so that's what shaped me now, that it's one thing to have had a successful military career. I've been self-employed for 30 years, but what does it mean to create the life that you want at whatever stage you're in? So I think that's what those teen years shaped for me is, number one, I'm on my own. If I'm going to be successful, it'll be because I'm doing this myself. Number two, nothing gets in my way. Literally nothing gets in my way. Now, that doesn't mean that I won't pivot if I'm not seeing the results that I want, but there is nothing sufficient to keep me from succeeding in the areas that matter most to me.

And those realizations didn't happen overnight, right? Was that like over perhaps decades of realization, or was there a light bulb moment where it went off and you made those realizations?

I'd say it evolves because I had been successful in school as a young person, and then I had such tremendous success in the military. I joined the Navy at 17 and I went from E-1 to E-5 in 2 and a half years, which is really unheard of. And so I would say that it evolved and that I say to people when I'm on stage that everything that I have ever done and everything that I have ever been shows up when I'm in front of the room, right? So people are getting all of the parts of me that have made me who I am at different times. So I can't really say that there's been an aha moment because it has evolved. And while I haven't had— what's the term everyone's using now— a soft life, I've had a fortunate life where every single thing that I've had to face I've been able to face it and make something satisfying out of it. So I didn't go back to college until I was in my 30s. I did my master's at 44. And so the very program that I started in my career change, I'm now the program director for the program that was my master's program. So I think that aha moment happens at different spaces and times for me. And I just consider myself very fortunate.

You mentioned security a moment ago, and that is a word that is used often in the financial profession. I'd love to explore that a little bit deeper, both in your personal experience, but also in your professional experience and your understanding of how even really wealthy people can feel a lack of security, maybe some of the psychology behind that and how financial professionals can perhaps enhance the job that they do in working with clients who may have issues around security, even though by all objective measures they should have plenty of financial security?

Yeah, I pay a lot of attention to this topic because I think the first thing that we have to recognize is that we have no idea what security means to people unless we ask them. And they may not even know what security means to them unless they've had time to ponder what it feels like to feel secure. And then, is it really even possible to have true security? Because the fact is, anything can change at any time. And so my experience over time, not only in my own life but in my work, is that the more I try to control a situation, the more I try to consider all of the possible outcomes, which of course, as financial professionals, that's like our sweet spot, right? But the fact is, do we ever really control anything? And once we can accept that we can plan for the very best, right? We can do all of those things recognizing that our greatest sense of control is going to come from our ability to navigate whatever comes up. And I think that what I had to learn about security was that I am my own security. I am my only security, my ability to pivot, my ability— literally today is an anniversary of a big event that happened for me many years ago that I came back home and I literally closed down my first business. Because I was being treated unkindly by my clients. And I said, I'm not going to keep doing this. I had no clue what I was going to do. No clue. And because I am my own security and I have confidence in that, I was able to say, you know what, I don't know what I'm going to do, but I know that I'm not going to continue to do this. And so for me, that was security. Right. For people who may have wealth and still not feel secure, the thing I would wonder if I were working with clients, and I have, but when I'm working with folks who have that perspective, where I'm going to spend time with them is having them excavate what security means and how will they know when they've got it. Because sometimes we'll just ask a question, what does it mean? And they'll say, I've got X number of dollars in the bank and I've got— I said, okay, so now let's picture that you've got that, and maybe you do have that. What is missing? And that's usually when I find out what the real topic is. Because if you've got everything that you need or everything that you think you need, and yet you still have a sense of, I could lose it all, I'm only as good as my stuff, I'm only as good as my career, I'm only as good as the relationships that I have, then we can begin to navigate What parts of you are believing that you're less than what you have? Right? What parts of you are questioning your value, your ability, your capabilities? And so when I'm working with folks who have something that doesn't make sense to me, when they have a perspective that I can't quite fathom what it is, the time we're going to spend is time making space for them to become curious. I tell people all the time in my training programs that it's helpful if I know, if I'm working with a client and I'm seeing a thing, right? It's helpful if I know, it's imperative that they know. I don't really have to know. I really don't even have to understand it, but they do. And if they can understand it, they can communicate to me in a way that lets me know how to best support them. Sometimes the supporting is just giving them a safe place to say, hey, look, you know what? I know I have multimillions. I know I have more than I'll ever spend, and I still feel this way. So then now we're having that conversation. And without— I'm not a therapist, so I don't do therapy and I don't play one on TV, but I do make sure that we're both spending enough time for them to navigate what's really going on. And then that might mean they need to talk with someone who can help them with whatever that is. That's beyond my scope. But I do believe making what I call sacred space for people to be able to feel safe enough to say, yeah, I thought that once I did this, I would feel— once I got here, I would feel.. And that's often not the case.

And related to this is a conversation that I see frequently on Twitter in particular. And it's this idea that advisors are trying to help their clients spend more money in retirement. So the client has worked all these years to save up enough money so that they quote, hit their number. And now they've got quote, enough and they can retire, but then they get into retirement and they don't want to spend it. And so some advisors feel like they should be encouraging their clients to spend that money. I'd love to get your perspective on that in terms of what do you think is the role of an advisor with a client who may have boatloads of money but is living very frugally and actually could spend a whole lot more? And maybe it's all back to this security thing. I'd love to get your take on that.

Yeah, I do think part of it is security. I also wonder, and these are the kinds of questions I ask, which is really all I'll be sharing with you, is that this is the way that I have these kinds of conversations. My first question is often, who deserves it more than you? And so if they feel like they wanna hold onto it, who do they believe really should have the benefit of it? I also find that there are some people that they accumulate and acquire from a perspective that they no longer hold, right? So once I get this, I will be able to like travel or whatever those things are. And then when they get to that place, they want to do those things less. So that's really what I investigate. So if I'm working with someone and one of the things that they really wanted to do was get to their number and retire and then travel. So I'm going to ask them things like, when we first started this conversation, one of the things that you said was really important to you was being able to travel when you want to. Where is that for you now? What matters to you about that now? They may say, oh, wow, I forgot. Or they might say, not so much now. And so what I try to do is just make sure that I'm holding up the mirror. As their advocate for their best selves. And if they're satisfied with continuing to let the money sit and not spend, I just want them to know whether or not they're satisfied. And if they're satisfied, what is missing? What do they feel like they're not getting enough of in their lives now? What were they hoping for when they were building it? For some people, there's the satisfaction in having it that might not translate to being more satisfied by spending it. If they were raised with lack or they struggled with having experienced poverty, having it may have really have been all that it ever mattered. So then my question would be is, what does it feel like to have it? What does it feel like now? You set a goal. And you've hit it. So now what? So rather than try to get them to do anything, my invitation to them will be, what's next? You've done all of these amazing things. You've acquired what you said you wanted to acquire. We had a plan and you've nailed it. So now what? And so I use tools like the Wheel of Life so we can talk about levels of satisfaction.. And then I hold up the mirror so that they can explore where they are satisfied and where they may not be. And there may be some new things that they never thought they wanted to do. Look, now I'm 62 years old. I want to go learn how to play pickleball.

That's the hot thing these days.

I want to play pickleball.

Yeah. And I think you hit upon some really important points there. And there's going to be different reasons for different people in terms of why they have this big pot of money and they're not spending it. The one that you mentioned that really connected with me, because I, I do know some folks where this really fits them, which is they didn't grow up with money, then over time they end up with a whole lot of money, but then they continue to live very frugally. And they say that knowing that they've got the money gives them greater satisfaction than any desire to go out and spend the money. So I don't think it's an advisor's role to say, no, you got to go out, you got to spend that money, do this, do that, go travel, buy this, buy that. It's like, no, if that's what makes you happy, who am I to judge, right? One of the things I love about your work is that it's not about judgments, it's not about shoulds, it's not about telling people what to do. You're all about the curiosity, you're all about the exploration, holding up that mirror, as you said. And I'd love for you to explore any further in terms of, we often talk about the soft skills in We both know the soft skills are really hard, but you're so good at it. And I'd love for you to share a little bit more in terms of, as a financial advisor, rather than getting to what's your financial goal or what are you hoping to do in retirement, some of the other ways that you can approach those things that are more from the coaching framework as opposed to I'm the financial advisor, I know best, here's what you should do, here's what you need to do. Now do these 3 steps and you're going to be able to retire when you're 62 and a half.

How do you think about that? Yeah, so in all fairness, financial planners, financial advisors are in a really tough spot, right? Because people come to you because they want you to be their expert. They want you to take all of their data and make a magic plan that they may or may not implement, and they want you all to be that resource for them. What I believe happens with financial professionals is that we then take on the role of hero. And I do a talk called Advisor as Hero. And I think we take responsibility for getting them where they should go or where they say they want to go. And I think that once we own that, we value, we place our value as a professional on whether or not we're able to do that. And then when the client doesn't do the thing that they said that they wanted, or they don't implement the plan, or I think we take it personally and feel like there's a flaw in who we are or what we've done. So I would say when people look at what I do and how I do it and they say, well, you do it so well, what is it? I do my own work first. I've done my work to understand what makes me think that I can get anyone else to do anything. And anybody who's raised a teenager knows this, right? So it's very challenging to get someone to do a thing unless they're already ready to do it. People want your advice when it coincides with what they already wanted to do. So my perspective on this is that the more that we can employ what I agree with you, they're very hard skills. Because we are trained to focus outward. If you even, your body language, if somebody folds their arms, it means this. And there's all of these ways that we talk to people about how to connect with folks. And I think the rub is it will not be possible for us to truly connect with people unless we're really clear about who we are and what we're offering. I don't believe a financial planner's greatest offering is the plan. I believe a financial planner's greatest offering is the fact that planners think of everything. They have to think of everything. What other profession do you know of that the person who's in the seat of the expert has to think of everything from health, relationships, what they own, what the markets are doing, their history, right? How did they get where they are? Financial planners, more so even than physicians, have to think of every single thing that can affect a client's plan, internal and external. And so since we know that, it is unfair to expect a financial professional to get it perfect when they're actually not going to be the ones to implement. Then you still, after you've done all of that, after you've done all of that, you still have to count on the client to implement plan. So I think that what financial professionals can do is to take a step back and really recognize what their value is. What is the real value that I'm bringing to each and every relationship? I'm holding the big picture. I'm also holding your readiness as a client. Are you ready to do these things that we're talking about? I can't tell you the number of people, financial planners, who will refer clients to me after they've worked with them for decades And now the client's compliance is an issue, right? It was fine as long as the money was rolling in, but then it becomes an issue when something is different. And so I guess the thing that I would say is that knowing who we are first, understanding our role in the relationship, understanding the magnitude of our role in the relationship is crucial for a financial professional to embrace the soft skills. We go in and we get the technical knowledge. We know the difference between a grut and a grat and a crut and a crat. We know all that. And none of that matters if the client is not ready to do what you've told them to do. And so I feel like the things that we can do and the things that help me is that I'm constantly learning about Sandra. And I'm constantly learning the new skills. Like right now I'm in a course, uh, called IFS, Internal Family Systems, to understand parts, right? Next week I start compassionate inquiry, right? So I'm always learning. And when I learn these things, I embody them rather than use them on a client. So I'm not looking for what is the next thing for me to say? What is my list? Of questions to ask. I'm really focused my attention on how can I be with people as they navigate what can be some of the biggest obstacles and biggest opportunities in their lives. So the better I can put my ego in the back, put what I think I know in the back, and hear them first, and then invite them to explore with me, right? Rather than I'm going to tell them what they should do. Doesn't do me any good to give them a lot of advice if really all they're looking for is a plan that's going to sit on their shelves so that they can feel good about the plan. The way that I can know that is to ask questions like, so one of the things that I'm noticing is that there might have to be some changes in the way that you relate to your family around money. What do you think about that? So before I even say what the change would be, I want to see if me saying there might be some changes in how you have to relate to your family around money— what do you think? I want to hear what they think before I start rattling off what I think that they might have to do. And I worked with a client recently that was exactly— his family was used to him being like this huge breadwinner, and they could have multiple homes and travel and do all of the things. And he was very concerned that now he was asking his family to cut back in some areas because he wasn't working anymore. He wasn't sitting on those boards that were paying him $100,000, $200,000 a year to sit on those boards anymore. And so when he had to make those adjustments, it was very clear that he wasn't ready to have that conversation with his family. So it didn't matter how many plans I gave him, right? Although I'm not the planner, I'd given him what he should do. He just wasn't ready. And trying to force him into readiness when this was something that was just so tied to who he was as a man, as a father, as a provider, as a husband, and for me to not make space for that, I'm not only not helping him, but I'm actually even harming him because I'm not giving him anywhere to go.

Yeah. And you're really touching on so many different areas here, one of which is behavior change and when someone is actually ready to change. Another thing I heard you say one time that if I'm not the cause, I'm not the cure. And I hear that coming out here as well. So I'd love to hear your take on the advisor's role in behavior change, because we hear a lot of advisors say, hey, my job, I'm in the behavior change business. I'd love to know if you agree with that. And if you do or don't, what are your thoughts there?

I don't think that we're in the behavior change business. I think we are in the possibility of behavior change business. So I'll say two things. If you're giving a client a plan, they're following the plan and it works and they're changing their behavior to align with the plan, great. If some are and some are not, then you'll have to decide what do you have to do for those that are not. But I do still think it starts with us because if the client could have done it on their own, they wouldn't be coming to us. Sometimes the clients come to us and they know that behavior change is necessary. Sometimes they don't. Sometimes they think all I got to do is have the plan and I can still behave exactly the way that I'm behaving now and everything is going to be fine. I think my experience is a lot of financial planners are very uncomfortable with accountability with clients. I think, and I hear, and not just that I think it, I hear it from financial professionals who are in my classes. If I try to hold them accountable, they'll fire me. And I hear that a lot because they don't set up a relationship on the front end with a client that includes accountability. And so what that might look like if, as a coach, right? When someone comes in to talk to me, they're coming to me because there's a gap between where they are and where they want to be. And so my first job is to assess in conversation what's going to be different when you get where you want to be. What are you willing to do to make that difference happen? So first, I'm seeking to check their inspiration and their motivation levels. Now, most financial planners at this point have heard or experienced in some regard what we call the transtheoretical model of change by James Prochaska. That transtheoretical model talks about those 6 stages, right? Pre-contemplation, where I'm not even thinking about change. Contemplation. And so we're going to stay between those 2 right now, right? Because sometimes a financial planner is really the invitation to someone to move from pre-contemplation, I'm not even thinking about it, to contemplation, where yes, I'm starting to think about things that I have to do differently. We often call folks who are in pre-contemplation a prospect, and we bring them on board when they're really not ready. And because they'll write a check to get a plan, we treat them as though they're ready. And I think that's unfair. I do think that it is the financial planner's responsibility to understand where the client is. And what is the evidence that they're ready for change? Just writing a check for a plan, that could really be the easy part. Writing the check's the easy part for most of us. If I want to make a problem go away, I'm either going to spend time or money. Sometimes time is not as available as money. And so I would just notice for financial professionals, just take a beat and notice what the client is saying. About what has to change for them. And then test the readiness. What would it look like for you to do something differently? What do you think the obstacles might be to you doing something differently? How will the people around you, the people you care about, how will their lives be impacted by you doing something differently? And I think just checking in with people can make a very big difference. I don't think we're in the business of behavior change. I think we're in the business of facilitating people aligning their behavior with the things that they say matter most. And granted, a lot of financial planners will say, I feel like a therapist, but the fact is we're not therapists unless we are, right? So, if we're not a therapist, that doesn't mean you can't use therapeutic approaches to help people navigate. They may never go to a therapist, but they'll come to you.

Yeah. So one of the things that I'm noticing here in our conversation is the language that you're using, I think in many respects is different than how a lot of financial advisors, the language that they use. Couple examples here. One is you use the word noticing. And so in a discovery process, if I'm understanding you correctly, You might be thinking to yourself, or you might be saying to the person in front of you, what I'm noticing is. And so you're not making a judgment about what you're noticing. You're just stating matter-of-factly, this is what I'm noticing. You also use the word invite or invitation. I'm inviting them to blank. And so would you view these as coaching techniques, therapeutic techniques, inquiry techniques, How do you place those types of questions or prefacing in the context of being a financial advisor in a discovery process?

Yeah, great question. So that gets back to your earlier question and comment when you said, I'm so good at this, right? The reason I'm so good at it is because I truly do not hold judgment. I used to, don't get me wrong. I could judge with the best of them and I had strongly held opinions. About what people should, and many of them, most even, were based in fact, right? And it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. Because if the person is not ready, my facts do not matter. And so the changes that I had to make, I as in Sandra, had to make was, first of all, can I work with someone if I am judging them? And I would say no. If I cannot hold them in perfect positive regard, I do not have the right to work with them. And I learned that from Ed Jacobson. I'd never heard anyone say it so clearly and deliberately as that, that if I cannot hold them in perfect positive regard, believing in their capacity and their ability to do that which they say they want to do, I don't have the right to work with them. I've got to send them to someone who can believe in them, because often I'm believing in them before they are. And that's not about the dollars and the cents, right? That's about who you are as a human and my ability to believe in and have confidence in you sometimes even before you do. So are they coaching techniques, therapeutic? I think yes to all, right? One of the lovely things about using the coaching language is that number one, it was created by a financial planner, bam, the very first coach training School was created by Thomas Leonard, a financial planner. And so the language is nonjudgmental, open-ended. It is an invitation because they don't really have to answer me, but they do have to answer themselves. Now, for me to incorporate the information, they're eventually going to have to answer me. But in that appointment, in that conversation, I'm more concerned with deepening their learning about themselves and their own beliefs, their own behaviors, their own desired outcome. That's really what I want to be very clear about, and I want us to be on the same page. So what many financial planners call discovery, I believe, is more data collection than discovery. And so I'm inviting financial planners to treat discovery as discovery so that the client is self-discovering as you go and the professional is observing that discovery as you go. That's going to give you so many clues as to what you can expect of them as a client and You're going to have some financial professionals who say, look, I am not here for all this therapeutic stuff. I want to do the numbers. And that's fine as long as your clients will take the plan and execute. The challenge becomes you think the client will take it and execute, and then they don't. So what are you going to do with them then? Are you going to fire them then? Are you going to try different techniques? Are you just going to let it ride? What are you going to do? And so that's what I think financial professionals have to navigate because those therapeutic ideas or those ther— some of the practices, coaching language, communication skills, all of those things, we call them soft. And as they can often be the most difficult, but the reason I think they're most difficult is because it forces us to tap into those vulnerable parts of ourselves and to be vulnerable enough to say, what's going to make this plan really work well is if I really understand what do you want and what you're willing to do to get it and the areas that you may not be willing to change. If you can tell me that, then I know what we're working with.

And as we talk about this discovery process, to your point here just a moment ago, just the other day I sent a tweet out and I said the most important part of the discovery process is what your clients discover about themselves, not what you discover about them. I think is right in line with what you were just saying here a moment ago. And I think that also ties back to what you've said here a couple of times, which is as an advisor, I can really only go with my clients as far as I've gone myself. And so I think that's a common concept in psychology or psychotherapy, that as a therapist, I can only go take you as far as I've gone myself. So I got to continue to work on myself. And that gets back to the vulnerability. It gets back to we've got to be lifelong learners. We've got to continue to seek self-awareness, self-understanding. And it's not an easy process. You and I are, we're, I think, both about the same age. We've been at this for decades, and I think we're both still learning and still trying to figure it out and still making our mistakes. But we have that aspiration that we want to keep getting better.

Absolutely. And I think that we just have to remember this profession is a human-to-human profession that deals with enormous amounts of data and external inputs, and it still doesn't change that it's a human-to-human profession. And so when we think about what we offer and what we bring to our clients, number one, one of the first things that we offer is just this extreme and deep empathy for the fact that they're facing a life of uncertainty. They're coming to us because they're hoping for some degree of certainty. And we can give them a range. We can give them a Monte Carlo simulation, right? We can say, if these assumptions hold, But the fact is, the hardest part, and Dr. Dave Jeske says this all the time, and I really believe this is true. He'll ask, when have you seen the market moves blow up a client's plan? And he'll ask this to— nobody raises their hand. And then he'll say, so when have you seen client behavior blow up the financial plan? And everybody raises their hand, right? And I think when you think about what makes us good at this, I'm a certified mindfulness teacher. I'm a credentialed coach. I'm a financial behavior specialist. I literally invest in myself all the time, and not because I'm not good enough. I am amazing at what I do right now, right here. And every single class I take, I deepen that part of me that can hold others with deep compassion. And the more I deepen that, the more I can understand when their behavior is out of alignment with what we've agreed on, when they're either not keeping their promises to themselves, because that's what a financial plan is. They're making a promise to themselves. And when they don't keep that promise to themselves, I'm going to invite them to explore what's behind it. So, you know, you said you were going to blah, blah, blah. So tell me where that is. What's up with that? I didn't do it. So let's talk about that. What do you think got in the way? And how important is it to you now? There isn't judgment because there truly isn't judgment. I just don't hold it anymore. But that was exercise.

That was work for me. Yeah. It's curiosity, I suppose, at this point too.

And just interest. Yeah, absolutely. And I had to first, and this is gonna be a tough one, so all you financial advisors, sit down, strap in. You have to first not judge yourselves harshly. It will be impossible to not judge others if you're always judging yourself. So if you're being unkind to you, you're likely gonna be a little bit brusque with others. But if you can extend that deep compassion to ourselves, if we can hold ourselves in perfect, positive regard, even in our imperfections, it'll be much easier to do it with the people we serve.

I want to go back to something that you said earlier. And the phrase that you said was, I am my own security. And that's something that really resonated with me, because I will admit that for decades, I had major hangups around money, and I was not super frugal, but I was one who was really focused on having predictable income and someone who was saving money. And it just made me cringe whenever I had to spend money. I spent it, but I didn't spend it happily. But it's only been in recent years where I feel like I have really embraced this idea of I am my own security and I have 100% confidence that there will always be enough. I will always find a way. And now I can happily spend money and know that it's more of this flow idea. It's money's flowing to me, money's flowing through me. And as long as I keep that flow movement and I don't let that money get stagnant and I don't let my skills as a professional become stagnant, as long as I'm a continuous learner, that there's always going to be a way for me to generate whatever I need for myself and for my family. So that was a personal transformation for me. I'd love your thoughts on, is it the role or a potential role of a financial advisor, depending on the situation with the client in front of them, to try and facilitate the client coming to an understanding like that so that they can get a different relationship with money than they have today that might be more productive for them? And help them live the kind of life that they think they want but are not living today because they've got some mental psychology or some history, some baggage that might be getting in the way of them having that type of transformational thinking. Is that something financial advisors should be thinking about?

First of all, I love that you described that so beautifully because that's exactly what we should be thinking about, not only as advisors, just humans. Things change. And the best way, I believe, the best way for us to navigate change is truly to be— I know I'm going to sound like the San Francisco hippie that I am right now, but this is just what's true, right? That my ability to flow with what is, is the thing that best equips me to deal with any of the challenges that come my way. But if I dig in, And I'm determined it's got to be this way. And when things happen that are contrary to what I've prepared for, if I don't know how to move with the change, I'm going to drown. That water is going to come right through and I'm going to drown. And I do think that advisors can be very instrumental in helping people know— I'm all for let's do the plan, let's know the assumptions. What are our market assumptions? What are inflation assumptions? What are life expenses? All of that is part of the benefit of the expertise that you bring, but the magic that you bring is allowing people to see, okay, if this, then that. If I see this coming, I'll move this way. I was reading a book and the gentleman was talking about— I don't think it was Taekwondo, maybe it's jiu-jitsu— about how the more force that something comes toward you in jiu-jitsu,, the more power you actually have by using that force to make the next move that you're going to make. And irrespective of the level of change or the force in which change comes, the more fluid we can be. And just like you said, you made this transition over time by accepting the flow of financial resources in your life, right? And for me, your story is very much my story. I'm not particularly frugal, much to my partner's chagrin, because I just never really thought about holding on to money because I didn't believe money brought security. And so this idea of flow is very real for me in my life. And what I've had to do is put in safety nets for Sandra, for Sandra at 70 and Sandra at 80. So I have a saving plan that facilitates flow. So when advisors are working with their clients, inviting them into this perspective of being able to navigate change more graciously often comes with, okay, what will it take for you to be able to navigate change? One of the things that I do when I'm doing workshops with the consumer public is rather than say, you gotta have 3 months' worth of emergency funds and you gotta— I don't do that. I ask them to take a deep breath. And I ask them to consider how much money do they have to have in order to feel safe? And I ask them to take a deep breath. And on the exhale, identify their number. I have never, Steve, one time, never once has someone said, I didn't get a number. Never once. And I've been doing this for about 20 years. And we start with that number. It might be less than what it should be for financial reasons, right? It might be way more. But that gives me, and more importantly, them insights to what money means to them and what kind of relationship they have with it. So, yeah, I think that what you just said is right on. And advisors can— I won't use the word should. Only because financial advisors should, in my mind, only do that which they feel comfortable and confident in their competence to do. So if someone doesn't feel competent to be in uncertainty with a client, if the financial professional doesn't feel okay with uncertainty, I think it'll be very hard for them to inspire that confidence in a client. That said, the lovely thing about the ladder of competence, right? We start out unconscious incompetent. We don't know that we don't know. And then we have conscious incompetence. We know that we don't know. That was when I first realized I was a horrible listener. Thought I was a great listener. I was completely incompetent, had no idea. And then there's conscious competence where I know, but I still have to work at it. I know this, but I still have to work at it. That's me in my golf swing. And then there's unconscious competence, where I know it so well, it's just my way now. It's just my way of being now. And that comes with grace and compassion and of course, practice. And I do think, to be honest, I think it is just as good for the advisor as it is for the client. Because I would imagine how you navigate your relationship in your work now is so much more free now that you've allowed yourself to have a perspective of flow in your financial life.

Yeah. And I've heard you say a couple of times here in our conversation that you told yourself that money does not bring security. And so it sounds to me like that's a story that you're telling yourself. And as I think about this transformation process, as I think about the role of a financial advisor in helping support or creating conditions under which the client might discover some ahas on their own, that storytelling can play a huge role in that. So I'd love to get your thoughts on this idea of the advisor as storyteller and also the advisor eliciting the stories from the client and trying to get them to examine the experiences in their life, the situations in their life, the big decision points in their life, and suggesting to them or encouraging them to identify what's the story they're telling themselves about that, and is that story true? And is that a story that you want to continue to tell yourself, or do you want to change the story going forward?

Yeah, those are the 3 magic questions, right? It's what is the story you're telling yourself? So for me, when I think about the story that I had was you'll always make more money. So that was it. You'll just always make more money. And so that can be very helpful in that I don't see obstacles in my way, right? It can also be very harmful in that I might not prepare for when I am not making more money. And so I think one of the things that we can do when we're inviting this story is, number 1, to be aware of what you identify as your own intuition as the advisor. Just because you think it doesn't make it true. Right? We can have a thought about why a client does or does not do whatever it is we're noticing. But just because we think it doesn't make it true. And that's why we remain curious. And so even a client that you might be working with that you say, this is the thing that I'm seeing. First, I start with whose story is that, right? Because often it is not even the client's story, it's someone else's story. So what is the story that you're telling yourself? And exactly what you just said, I use those same exact questions. Is it true? Does it have to be true? And even if it is true, It might feel true and yet not be true. And so I will parse that out. It may be true to you even though it is not objectively true. And so we have that conversation. And then how do you want to reframe it? Are you satisfied with that story? Is that the story that you want to pass down to the next generation of people you care about? And if not, what is that story? So I'm, yes, I'm going to ask those questions and invite that conversation. And I'm also going to try to push to what's your real legacy here? Because what they might have, what's called in IFS, a legacy burden. I had a legacy burden from my mother. You've got to work twice as hard to get half as much. My mother worked 3 jobs. I then worked 3 jobs. And so I had a lot of her experience of poverty embedded into my experience, even though it wasn't my experience. We know this, we say this all the time. Those who are raised by parents who, or grandparents who survived the Great Depression, right? And still flattening out foil and saving everything, right? So we know that these legacy burdens happen and we just have to decide how can we support, number one, ourselves in knowing that. And the reason that I do come back to that always, Steve, is that I believe inviting a client to talk about their story is more important than them hearing our story, unless our story supports them in feeling safe to tell theirs. As a coach, I very seldom disclose much about myself at all. And the reason for that is that I never want to take focus off the client. That doesn't mean that if a client says something, I might say, I can really relate to that. I will never say, and I do mean never, I will never say, I know how you feel. I do not know how you feel. I know how I feel, right, when I hear what you say, but I don't know how you feel. And so I just think there are certain things that we want to be cautious about so that we don't take away from the client's ownership of their own experience and their own story. Almost all of my work at this point is about making space for people to have their story, share their story, investigate their story, and decide what do they want to write next.

Yeah, we all want to be heard, right? And a financial advisor can be that person who is a safe space for someone to share their deepest fears, their most aspirational hopes in life. And if maybe you have a partner or a spouse that you can do that with, but here's an objective third party that is there that can be that safe space, that container for that type of relationship. And you mentioned earlier, as we were talking here, the incredible role that the financial advisor plays. They cover every aspect of being a human being, even more so than a doctor, like you mentioned.

And multigenerational as well. Not— you all are not only doing this for the client, you're doing this for the client's parents if the clients are taking care of their parents. You're reaching multiple generations. So I really do think this is absolutely one of the most important professions, and we deserve to love doing it, and our clients deserve us at our best. And we can't be at our best unless we're very clear about what we can and cannot do. If we are holding ourselves to a standard that is unfair, we will burn out. And the thing that so many advisors say is that I'm starting to think about my succession plan. You're worn out. You're not taking vacations. You're not resting. You're not enjoying. You might love what you do, but you're burning yourself out as you go. I'm sorry, who wants to be your succession plan? And so the more care that advisors can give themselves, the more compassion advisors can give themselves and reasonable expectations of what they can offer and recognize that the magic that you bring is so much more than what you're able to print out on that piece of paper or what's going to happen when you run that plan. Because for some people, I really do believe that the financial advisor is truly the only person who is listening to them.

I want to read a quote here. This comes from your website, and I'd like to get your thoughts about it. So on your website, you wrote, what inspires people to live with their money in a way that honors their values and fuels the vision they have of their future? This question drives and determines how we design our programming because we understand that people don't have financial goals. They have personal aspirations with financial implications. So tell me a little bit about what that means to you.

Yeah, so one of my dear friends and colleagues and I would talk about this all the time, that people don't have financial goals. They have life goals that have a dollar sign attached to them. And really the crux of my work is understanding What is the inspiration, right? There's a lot of work. Motivational interviewing does a great job of using tools and those kinds of things. Money Quotient is also a great program. But I think that the main thing that I work on and what I try to do for financial professionals is number one, to help them navigate this part for themselves about what it means to be in the field and what it means to be in the business that they're in. And quite frankly, even when I was telling you before, I used your book in my class with my students, that was their work. The first work is who are you and what the heck are you doing?

It's that blue—

the blueprinting process. Exactly, exactly. And so I just believe that people don't really have financial goals. They have a thing that they're trying to get that they may or may not even know what it is. And I think a part of that is also like the question that you asked earlier about when people make the money that they wanted to make and then they have trouble spending it. I think when people say, I want to have this X dollar amount, there's a reason that number matters to them. I think that the more we can help people realize what is the real personal aspiration, it might be, hey, look, I want to have that amount of money because that's going to make me feel like I made it. The point isn't the money. The point is now you feel like you made it. So what does it mean to make it? And is that enough for you now that you've made it? Is that satisfying? And if it is, great. If it's not, what now? People ask me, Sandra, you just finished the 2-year mindfulness teacher certification thing and now you're doing this thing, now you're doing this thing. What are you chasing? What I am chasing is a deeper understanding of my why, so that my how is clearer every single time I do it. As long as I can understand my why, my how becomes very clear. When I lose track of my why, I'm all over the place. But when my why is clear, the will And the how is a breeze. Not that it's not a lot of work, it's still work, but it is work with purpose and clarity. And I think that same thing is true for people with money. I don't think people care about money at all. I really don't. I think that if we lived in a society as it was at one point in time on this gorgeous globe we live on, where if you were a fisherman and I was the gardener and you needed lettuce and I needed fish, we would swap and no money exchanged hands. I think people want something that money can buy. And so I try to help people figure out what is it that they're really buying when they're saving, when they're investing. What is it that the money means to them?

What does it represent for them? One word that you used here a moment ago was feeling. And it's, if I get to this number, this amount of savings, how will I feel? And so I oftentimes will equate money with a feeling, but then I also find you hit the number and then it's like, now I want 15% more because now that I've got a boat of this size and I park it in the marina and I see this person over here has got a 20-foot longer boat. Now I want to get a 20-foot So it's like it never stops.

It's this comparison game. Yeah. And my question is, so what is that? What is that feeling? Or— Yeah. So when I'm talking with folks and it's that, and it comes up as that, often just the fact that I'm asking them that gives them a moment. They may still say, yeah, I want the big boat, but now they know why. Now they know why. As long as I have facilitated them knowing why, I have no judgment about whether or not they do it. That's up to them. Their money, their decision. I do not care one way or the other. I'm completely agnostic as to the choice that they make.

Right. And Sandra, I could talk to you for hours on this. And there's one other area I'd love to just touch on here. And it was something, again, you said here just a moment ago where you were talking about the more that you can understand your why, the clearer you will know the how. Okay? And I'm very fascinated by this concept of mastery. And my personal feeling or belief about mastery is that no one ever masters anything. I don't care if you're the best basketball player or you're the best financial advisor or, or you're the wealthiest person in the world. No one ever reaches a level of, quote, mastery because there's always another level to go beyond. So I'm interested, I'm curious about when you say, I want to better understand my why. Is that a lifelong pursuit that I want to get closer and closer to that? But I know that I'll never, ever reach the innermost cave of my why. Or do you think I will get there at some point and I'll know that and everything will be hunky-dory?

Yeah. So I think that my why evolves. I think some of it's a function of age and some of it is things change. For me, what my desired outcome is changes. But I think that the understanding the why is so crucial because that's driven by things that are different today at 60+ than at 40 when I joined the profession, right? So, I don't have a there. I guess that's the easiest way to say it. I don't have a there. I have a journey. And all along that journey, I'm impacted by the relationships that I make, the conversations that I have. I learned something spending time here with you today, right, that impacted me and then will impact the people that I serve. And so for me, we are just all so deeply connected. That it's impossible for my why not to include you. So in my head, and I know y'all are saying, yeah, she really is from San Francisco. Yes, I am. And yes, I was born in the '60s. So yes, this is all true. But I guess the main thing that I want to say is I don't have it there. I'm perfectly content with learning as I go, questioning. Someone asked me because I'm planning on a doctorate program next year and someone said, why? And I love questioning what I think I know. I love being in the question of what I think I know. And everything I do, it literally, even honestly, Steve, even down to a cup of coffee. If I decide I'm gonna go out and buy coffee, I explore why. I have coffee here. What's different about that coffee? And for me, going out for that coffee is number one, Their foam is much better than my foam. I love the nurturing feeling that I get when they hand me my cup of coffee. And I even take my own mug and I take my mug and they make my coffee and they do the little swirly heart thing in it. And I feel very cared for. And so on the days that Sandra needs to feel cared for, I do something that gives me that feeling. And sometimes it's as simple as a cup of coffee. Sometimes it's reservations at a retreat spa. But I ask myself the why, literally, about every decision that I make.

Yeah, I think you and I are similar in many ways. And just speaking of the cup of coffee, for many years on Sunday morning, and pretty much Sunday morning only, I would go to the coffee shop, I would get one of those gooey lattes, I would bring it home, I'd sit in my favorite chair, and I'd read the Sunday paper. And that was my, like you say, that was my pampering. That was my way of knowing no one needs me right now. I don't have to check any emails. There's no phone calls. There's no work I need to be doing. I'm just gonna chill here with this cup of coffee. And it was just a moment of being and not trying to be somewhere else or worrying about something. So I can totally relate to that. And I thought I read somewhere that you have a cup that has no handle on it. And the idea is, what's— you tell me, what is the idea behind the cup with no handle, if you remember what I'm talking about?

My understanding, it's— I don't know which Asian country it's from, but my understanding, I went to a Japanese— it was a Japanese tea ceremony, and she poured the tea, and I went to touch it. It was hot. If it is too hot to hold, it's too hot to drink. And so it gives me that moment of being present with that cup of tea. My cup with no handles is It's a reminder that it helps me to navigate my impulses. It helps me to navigate that goal that I can have sometimes, and just learning to slow down and be with things as they are. And I will say, in all fairness, I do keep touching. When it's ready. Exactly. Can I drink it now? Exactly. That's my next hurdle, right? That's the next Sandra journey. But yeah, if it's too hot to hold, it's too hot to drink. And I learned that from a tea ceremony. I'm almost certain it was the Japanese tea ceremony where I learned it.

Yeah, I love that. Sandra, as we wrap up here, is there any final thought, comment, observation that you want to share here?

First, I just want to say thank you so much for inviting me to join you. When I saw your name, I was like, oh my God, this is so exciting because I did learn so much as a new person in this profession in reading your work. And so I was just really grateful to have time to talk with you. And I think the thing that I want to leave people with is to tread lightly. We say, oh, life is short. Life is short. Life is short. Life is long unless it's not. And with life being long, how we treat ourselves on the journey is so important. Knowing the difference between our connection of health and wealth and knowing that we can do this profession in the way that feels satisfying. We don't have to be miserable in our work. We get to love what we do and love the journey that we're on. And I just really invite people that if there's any part of what you do that feels like it's a drain on your soul, to investigate, open up your willingness to question if it has to be that way or if there's something you can do differently.

Well, Sandra, this has been a beautiful conversation, and it has been a real treat for me to spend some time with you here today, and I appreciate that. And for folks that want to connect with you and stay in touch with all the great work that you and the team are doing, what would be the best way for folks to connect?

The best way is our website is sagefinancialsolutions.org. So we're not a dot-com, we're dot-org. And then also on LinkedIn. I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. Uh, I don't do a lot of other stuff on social, but those are the ways to find out what I'm doing. When I'm teaching any courses or offering anything, I'll usually do it on LinkedIn. And I welcome the connections so people can meet me there.

Excellent. Sandra, again, thank you. Thank you. All right, that's all for today. Make sure you like and share this podcast through your favorite social platforms. And for more great podcasts, visit us at barons.com/podcast.

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