MUIYB Podcast-The Self Employed Life w Jeffrey Shaw

Hey there. Entrepreneurship elevated. Listener, if you haven't yet subscribed to Mike's new podcast Mike up in your business, you are missing out. This week we have world renowned photographer and TEDx speaker Jeffrey Shaw. Jeff and Mike discuss various experiences that made Jeff successful, including self publishing a book versus using a publisher. So please be sure to subscribe to Mike's podcast, Mike up in your business by going to mmpodcast me to check out all the great interviews. Enjoy the show.

The other chicken and egg in my life is the whole photography aspect. I think a lot of, a lot of the reasons why I became a photographer was it was my escape from the world, right? Because back in the day there was, I was, I truly had paralyzing shyness. I was scared to death of the world like, and that included everybody in it. So to me, the photography offered the benefit of a, being in the dark room and then B, there was, oh, if I was out in the world photographing, there was always a camera between me and there was something about looking through the viewfinder. It was kind of like I didn't think I could be seen.

Welcome to Mic up in your business. Today I'm going to interview Jeffrey Shaw and I'm curious, Kelsey, Amy, Jeremy, what you think about this interview? So listening closely and let's get right into it and we'll come back. Oh, oh, I say get right into it. Let me remind people to go to rate our podcast While you're listening RateOurPodcast.com and that would help us spread the word and you can give us an honest rating and subscribe. All right, now we can listen it. All right, Jeffrey, good to see you, brother.

You too.

How are you?

Get all that stuff out of the way. Yeah, yeah, I'm awesome. How are you?

Good.

I'm doing well. So we're in the podcast. Like we don't do any intro, any bio, anything. So even me saying we're in the podcast.

We'll be in the podcast in the podcast. Yeah. Cool.

How's things down in Miami?

A lot warmer than they were. They are where you are. Yeah. You guys have been getting dumped on for snow all of a sudden, but no, things are good. Things are really good. I loving living on the beach. It's been a great lifestyle change.

Was it three years ago now?

It's been five years.

Five years.

Yeah, yeah, it was five years. Came down. It was actually January 8, 2016. It was just five years. And yeah, my, my, my three month stint turned into be five years later and I'm still here.

You were in New York City, right?

I was for 12 years. Prior to that, Connecticut. Prior to that.

What was the impetus to go down? Just. Just visit the beach or, you know.

It originally started with, hey, let's just, you know, do the winter thing and head down to Florida for three months. And I rented two Airbnbs, six weeks each. Each Airbnb. I mean, it was the back of mind. I could imagine maybe living here because I had spent a fair amount of time at a spa down here in Miami that I liked. But I'll tell you what, you know what? The impetus was unexpected because once I got here, particularly, you know, as my work had shifted from photography to coaching and speaking, I realized, man, there. There is something really powerful about living someplace where the environment refuels you. And with all the wonderful attributes of New York City, like, it's draining. Like, you're always on. It's so high energy. And I'm glad I had that for a good part of my life. But I came down here and I'm like, man, in fact, my concern now is getting lazy because that you don't really have to go to the gym, you don't really have to work out because I walk on the beach. Completely refuels you. So that ended up being the impetus, just the lifestyle change.

Yeah. Yeah, I. That's so funny, your concerns. Getting lazy because it's so nice down there.

Yeah, it's like if I. If I can walk on the beach and my mind can get into the right place, then it kind of takes away the motivation to, like, work out and get your head in the right place.

So you made a ballsy move. Right. So you were very established in the photography. Photography industry. You know, you hooked me up with ppa, the Professional Photography association. And thank you again for that. And your name circulates around there, so you're a known entity. And then you take this crazy leap into becoming a business author. What triggered that?

You know, a variety of things. One is I had had a business coach for seven years. I hired my first business coach in 1999. Like, before you told people you were doing that. You're right, right. It was like taking yoga back in the day where you did it, but you didn't tell anybody. So I had a coach for seven years, and. And I mean, I was so loyal to that relationship. We spoke three times a month for seven years. Like, I don't think I ever missed a call. I just found. And, you know, the interesting thing is I hired a business coach. Really, at the peak years as an entrepreneur, I was cranking. But you know what? I found it really lonely. I found it lonely when you had five employees around, but you can't talk to your employees about the things going on, the real things going on in the business, and you don't want to necessarily bring it home. So who do you talk to? And so I found it strikingly lonely. I don't know that I anticipated how much it would elevate my business, but it did. And I found by working with a coach, not only did it give me that partner to work with, the partner I didn't have to split the profits with, but it also, it did elevate the business. And so when he retired after seven years of working together, it was 2008. If you recall that time, the economy kind of took a little bit of a dive. And my clients were mostly the most affected. You know, the wealthiest in the country were hit so hard. And I just felt like I had time in my hands more than anything. I wasn't freaking out about not having business, although my business certainly took a dive to me. I just looked at the positive of it and like, I'm going to have time on my hands, so let me learn a new skill. And I turned to coaching. And once I got that bug, there was no turning back. I mean, honestly, it wasn't an intentional goal. I was just thinking, I, maybe I'll do a little coaching on the side. But once I got bit by, I realized how much I love business.

Yeah.

And it didn't have to be my business. You know, I could just talk business all day long.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it. And in fact, I think a lot can be said for how much I enjoy helping other people be successful than talking about myself and my own business, you know, gets boring after a while. And that was it. From that point on, it was just, you know, I started in the photo industry. How can I help photographers? My content constantly. I was being told that my content was much broader than the photo industry. So then I started looking outside the industry. Wrote my first book, Lingo, came out in December and 2020, January 2018. And that was sort of my. My coming out card. You know, that was sort of the. That was my first statement outside of the photo industry that I wanted to make some impact in the business world.

Well, it must be tough leaving an industry. I mean, the identity you have for yourself is you're a photographer.

Yeah.

Now you're an author. What's that transition like?

You know, And I tell you, it happened quicker than I anticipated. So in 2016, when I came down here to Miami, I. That year was still. I was still living. That balance of my primary income was still photography. And I was building what I could definitely foresee at that point. I could foresee that I could build a serious practice as a coach, But I was still hanging on to photography. And I was maybe crazy enough to think that I could live in Miami and still maintain a fair amount of my business in the New York, Connecticut area where my photography business was. But I tell you, it went off the cliff quicker than I thought. As far as. I don't know, I guess it was a little bit of. I mean, I photograph entirely on location, so I don't technically have to be there. But there was something about a removal from the area. Whether. I don't know if it impacted my clients as much it did me. Like, I can't say it was out of sight, out of mind because I was still present in their lives. But I don't know, maybe the shift was more inside of me, but my projections of how long I would be able to hang on to photography while I was building the coaching was off. So I wound up having to build coaching speaking all that much quicker than I anticipated.

Yeah.

Because the photography dove off much quicker than.

Oh, it's interesting.

Yeah.

So my first book launch. I want to see if we can kind of compare notes. I remember the day I launched. I sold zero copies. Zero. And I called a. I don't even know who it was, but a person who was in the author industry. I'm like, this is horrible. I'm terrified. And he goes, oh, don't worry, don't worry. Because that's the quiet before the quiet. And then there was like, there was silence.

I'm like, that's great.

What?

And it was the quiet before the quiet.

It was.

It was tough for me. What was your experience with launching Lingo?

You know, I had built up a fairly decent following at that point. I started my podcast, the Self Employed Life, which actually back then it was called Creative Warriors. I started that in July of 2014. So before I launched Lingo, I had, you know, four years of the podcast. So I started, you know, I already had an email list of probably 10, 12,000, you know, probably a good 60,000 social media followers, primarily on Twitter, because the podcast and Twitter just kind of went hand in hand. So I had a base, you know. So my experience of launching the book is it was quieter than maybe I expected, but I did the typical entrepreneurial thing. Like, I Thought I was just. I thought it was gonna be a big splash right in the beginning, you know, but at the end, I can't complain about what. What it was. I mean, it was decent. I don't remember numbers for the top of my head, but it was a decent initial launch. The big surprise for me and you and I have that shared friend of ours, AJ Harper. The big surprise to me was texting her nine months, 11 months later, and saying, holy crap, the sales have really taken off. And her writing back and saying, that's because you wrote a good book. And it caught on. Right. And 2020. Lingo sold more copies in 2020 than it did in 2018, the year it came out.

Wow.

So two, three years later, two years later, the book is selling. It's actually was the third year of sales, it sold more. And again, aj, you know, I've talked to her, but she said the same thing. It's a good book. Right. So one person is telling two other people. Two people are telling two other people. And it's selling itself now because I've done nothing really to market it in the past year because I'm so hot on marketing the new book.

Yeah, yeah. And we're going to explore the new book. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. It's interesting is a launch. My perception. Perception of a launch is it's a big push out of the gate to your list, and it may be a great week or two, but after a few months go by, then the book settles in to perform on its own. Unless the author is doing active, ongoing marketing, which is very doable. And to your point, a great book will promote itself. Now, Lingo, I just want to recall. Did you self publish that book?

I did, yeah.

Yeah.

Self publish it.

All right. Which means you. You invested a lot of effort, money, and time in editing, copywriting, you know, writing a book isn't just writing a book, I assume.

Yeah, yeah. No, it's. No, it was. It was all in, you know, and I had no idea what I was doing. I mean, so now the second book is being. Is with a publisher. And the big thing, the big difference that stands out to me is the difference between marketing and distribution. Like, I'm. I'm a marketing guy, so I'm. Believe me, I'm. I'm still going to market my new book. Right. I'm not relying on my publisher to per se market the book, but I am counting on them to distribute it. And that's something when you self publish. And I would, honestly, Mike, I think self publishing your first book is so valuable because it's just like, you know, I started out as an entrepreneur, I cleaned my own bath, I like still clean my own bathroom. 36 years later, I still clean my bathroom. Who am I kidding? But, but you know, it's good to know what hands on feels like, right? So you, you can evalue other people so you can really value other people's work and their effort. Plus you just have a different strategy about different mindset. So I'm glad I published my first book. But the big difference is distribution. Like now with a publisher, it's like they're talking to me about, they're, they're coming to me for information to feed salespeople in the UK and Australia so they can build up the support. Like that's mind bending to me. The cool thing is, is I've got really cool. I've got over six years of podcast statistics so I can tell them exactly what countries I'm popular in.

Oh, that's interesting.

And that's been really. I know, I thought you'd find. Because it's really cool because you know, I don't, I made. Because of my first book was self published. I don't have a lot of sales statistics from that book. And I also, I was so focused on readers for the first book I sold thousands of books on my own because I direct printed which were never scanned. So if you were to look at the universal system, right, it looks like the book sold quite a few thousand copies less than it actually did. Right. This time I want every book scanned because I want that number for credibility for down the road. Right. So I'm doing it a little differently. But the first book I focused on readers, I bulk printed them myself. So a lot, you know, thousands of copies went out, you know, hand signed or what have you. Even conferences that bought the book, you know, I printed it myself. So none of those were scanned. So I didn't have a lot of data. I don't have that, that book data to give sales teams in other countries. So I've turned to the podcast data and it's actually worked out really well.

Oh, that, that's interesting. Yeah, that book scan, right? It's the Social Security number for books and it's like, it's like not reporting taxes, like, oh, I save us money. But then, but no, there's no public record now you try to go for a loan, they show. Show me your taxes. Like, oh, I didn't have any income.

Exactly.

So let's talk about the new books. The Self Employed Life. What inspired you to write that book?

So, you know, it's always the most obvious thing in our lives that stands out. Like this is obviously this is the book I should have written. Like I've never, I've never actually had a real job. I've never received a paycheck ever. Right. I mean, so it's obvious now, but it wasn't then I actually was writing another book. I was, I was writing what I thought would be a good follow up to Lingo and actually what was suggested to me as a smart business move, which would have been because Lingo, as somebody said to me, is a concept book. I could have followed that book up which, which the direction I was heading in with a deeper dive into one aspect of lingo and it. Right, I totally get that strategy. But you know what, Mike? My heart just wasn't in writing that book. Yeah, I was writing it. I was going someplace. But then I gave a keynote, January 2020 actually also for PPA, professional photographers of America. And I stretched myself as to the type of keynote I gave because I'm so known in the industry as giving good business content. This one was a little bit more the coach in me. It was called Life Isn't Everything Bagel. So it had a lot of life coaching and personal development in it along with the business strategies. I walked off the stage and I hardly remember feeling so alive. And it actually wasn't, it wasn't my highest rated talk, by the way, because I was experimenting with content, but how I felt when I walked off that stage. I knew that I needed to pivot. So that gave me a whole different concept for a book. But it didn't hone in honestly into becoming specifically for self employed business owners until the pandemic. And it's so cliche to the point I almost feel like I think we're all tired of talking about the pandemic. But it's hard to avoid lifestyle changes that has initiated. And for me, the moment there was talk about there being a CARES act, a PPP loan, every hair, and I'm not kidding you, every hair in my body went up. Because what I expected was that it was going to be yet another time in life where when self employed business owners are going to be overlooked.

Yeah, right.

Because I've been in business 36 years, I've never gotten a dollar of support from my government. It never even occurred to me. Right. Because we're so used to just taking the hits on the chin and make finding our own way like it never Occurred to me to expect help from anybody. So when there was talk, but I knew this was serious. I'd been through 9, 11, I'd been through the recession and I was like this, this pandemic thing is serious. This is going to cripple small businesses. So when they started talking about this CARES Act, I just, you know, inwardly I just got so tense thinking this is going to. Self employed business owners are going to be overlooked. As it turned out, I was able to see an early version of the CARES act and it's the first time in US history self employed was used as terms in a piece of legislation. First time in US history.

Unbelievable, Right? Right.

That it actually said this is for self, this PPP is for self employed businesses. And that's when the world changed. To me, I'm like, okay, they just opened up a door. They meaning the government. And they opened that door not because they're nice folks, but because they realize the financial and economic downside if they don't take care of us. So I ran with that. I wound up getting a hold of a banker who I had heard through a series of people had early insights as to how this PPP was going to work. I did a video interview with him. Within two days that video had 15,000 views. At that time, more than my TEDx talk had. Right. So I realized I was onto something. I'm like, holy crap, nobody's talking to self employed business owners. And the book I was writing based on this talk, Life isn't Everything Bagel, which I thought I was writing it for entrepreneurs as a broad audience became obvious to me. I needed to write a book and narrow it down and speaks specifically to self employed business owners. And then like I said, my whole life turned around. I'm like, well that was obvious because that's all I know. And it's not just the business, it's the life. It's who we need to become to be successful. It's how the old adage in business, don't take it personal, doesn't apply to us because it's all personal. Right. And what goes on in our personal crosses into business and vice versa.

Yeah, yeah. So I want to know, how do you define self employed life?

So to me the self employed life is when your business, there, there is no, there's no great division between who you are and the business. So we, we turn to ourselves. So the book is broken up into this, what I call the self employed ecosystem, which are three components. Personal development, business strategies, daily habits and mindsets. And you you know, self employment is when the business you're in constantly inspires you to rise to a higher level. And you know that the more that you develop yourself, your business can rise to a higher level. So there's a direct correlation between personal development fundamentally. Mike, the thing that I've lived my life on and have built my business on and helped others do the same since 20 years old is really believe what I noticed is that every time I grew as a person, which for me was I was starting from really raw material, paralyzing shyness, biggest geek you'd ever meet. I mean, I always look at my youth as really raw material. Did not have a lot going in my favor, or so it seemed. And so to me it's all been personal development. How can I grow so that I can get more out of life? So I've always looked at business that way, sort of like the proverbial glass ceiling, like what I look at as capacity. How can I turn to myself to increase the capacity of my own development so that the success I want in life can come up to meet that? So I just constantly grow, fill up, grow, fill up. And at the same time, you know, what we encounter in business is always hitting our buttons. There's always something pushing our buttons which forces us to grow into that as well.

Now, can a self employed life be a trap where we build a position that because we're employing ourselves, it becomes so dependent upon us that we have to always be on delivery mode, always in the business, not living life?

Yeah, certainly can. You know, I mean that's, and that's an, you know, whatever work life balance is, I mean, it's never going to be balanced. First of all, I don't, I don't. Balance in our life does not mean equal measure to me. Balance means to be empowered. Right. There are plenty of times in life where I am very, I'm very aware right now my life is far more geared towards my business than my personal life. Although, you know, I'm in a relationship, so I make sure that that gets healthy, a healthy dose of, of inspiration. But you know, my, I've got three kids in their 20s, they're all out of the house. I'm at a very different stage of life so I can focus more on my, I don't have to balance it with. And I was a single dad for a lot of years, so I don't have to balance my business with all the commitments to my kids and making sure I'm showing up as a dad and cooking meals and all that. So, you know, to me it's just an empowered choice. I am empowered by this stage of my life to give my career and my business a lot more time than I was able to in my 30s and 40s. Uh, so.

And as you give more time to your business, what I'm hearing is now this upward spiral begins. You're, you're learning more, you're improving yourself because the business demands that of you. And as you deliver on it, the business can get more from you. It sounds like it kind of ratchets up.

Exactly. Yeah. I just, I said I've always looked at it as how can I grow and what can, you know, I said the clarity I gained about self employment, that's, that was a major pivot in my inner psychology.

Yeah.

You know what, what I've accomplished in the past year, I have to say, even blows me away. And so many people have commented and saying, you're like a beast, you're a machine. I'm like. And it's actually never been easier.

That's interesting, right? I mean, why is, why has it never been easier?

It's just the clarity around who I'm serving, what I have to say. I don't have to think about, I don't have to think about conversations. I know the self employed life, like, it's all I know. Yeah. I could. So there's like an, right now anyway, there is an, a never ending reservoir of opinions, of ideas, of strategies that I know that work like right now. It is such a massive reservoir because it's like you could say 35 years of pent up learning that now needs to spill out into the world, into other people, that it's been really easy for me to just crank out one thing after another.

Do you feel for folks listening in right now that they have that reservoir too? Is that the goal is to tap into what you already have, maybe aren't aware of?

Gosh, you know, clarity is under underrated. Honestly. You know, it's, it's the hardest thing, you know, as a coach. I, it happens to be something I'm really good at. Like what I'm really good at. If you know that proverbial dinner conversation. What's your superpower?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I, you know, and I was the other chicken and egg in my life is the whole photography aspect. I think a lot of, a lot of the reasons why I became a photographer was, it was my escape from the world. Right. Because back in the day there was, I was, I truly had paralyzing shyness. I was scared to death of the world, like, and that included everybody in it. So to me, the photography offered the benefit of A, being in the dark room and then B, there was. Oh, if I was out in the world photographing, there was always a camera between me and there was something about looking through the viewfinder. It was kind of like I didn't think I could be seen. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. So. But what I'm never sure about is whether who I was innately drew me to photography. But I'm also highly aware that being a photographer, you know, the whole path to mastery has trained my brain in certain ways. So, for example, I can see what other people don't see. I mean, that's who I am as a photographer. I photograph entirely in location. So you can plop me anywhere in this world with any combination of elements, any people, weather, and I can see what's possible. And I have to, right, because that has to result in a family photograph. But I see the same thing in business. Like, I just, I see, I see in other people what they can't see in themselves. I see what's marketable in what they're doing that they necessarily can't necessarily see. That, like I said, that to me has just been a training of the brain. So clarity to me is actually one of the things I'm really good at. But it's a very hard thing to sell. Like, oh, pay me all this money. I'm going to help you get clear. And yet nothing changes your life like getting clear about what makes your brain tick, what is marketable. Because when I see people get there, that's when I see them step into levels of commitment and working in a flow that I've never seen in them before. So, yes, I think it is in everybody. My favorite phrase these days is you can't read the label from inside the jar.

Oh, yeah, yeah, right.

The hard thing is, is that, you know, my TEDx talk is actually called a validation paradox, and it actually interestingly kind of wraps into this as well. Is that the paradox? The validation paradox is that we're always trying to validate ourselves. We're always trying to return into ourselves, to grow. But the fact of the matter is our biggest growth opportunities come from outside of ourselves if we pay attention to how what other people see in us. That's the nature of my TEDx talk, was really stepping into realizing that how far we can go in our own lives is innately limited by our own mindsets. But often other people see more potential in us than we see in ourselves at that moment. Right. Which is why, you know, you see sports stars always acknowledge the person in their life who saw more in them than they saw in themselves. I joke in the book. It's also why, like, you know, people come out and nobody else is surprised, you know, but having taken that route in life, like, you have to come out to yourself first. If I didn't, I mean, there were other. When I came out, there were plenty of people like, oh, yeah, we were just waiting for you to figure it out. Why didn't you tell me? You know, but you didn't see it. Yeah. So there, there's this, this sense that there's. I truly believe that. Yeah, it's. It's in everybody. But you need somebody else to see in you what you can't see in yourselves to gain that clarity, to have that reservoir.

Okay. Could people, though, on the outside, give you clarity? That's not your clarity. Meaning. You know, my dad wanted me to be an engineer my entire life. Growing up, he's like. Because that's what he was. And I started to buy into that until a different thing presents itself and I feel I'm in my area of self. Clarity. Is there a risk that someone listening in right now, they have an external force saying you should, you should, and saying it very clearly, but not necessarily consistent with who they are 100%.

And that's usually, you know, what's their agenda. Yeah, you know, I mean, a parent has a different agenda. I don't have an agenda for my coaching clients. Right. I mean, I want what's best for them. My job is to see in them what they may not be able to see in themselves, to offer them that clarity. I'm always looking for what I call the intersection between meaning and marketability. That's when I come alive. That's when I feel like I've got. So because I work with. I work with a lot of people that come into great meaning of their work. Right. They tend to be heart centered, purpose driven, you know, but that doesn't mean it's marketable, you know, I mean, what does that mean?

To be more.

Yeah, first of all, I think pretty much everything is marketable to some audience out there. Right. But, you know, it has to be. To me, what makes something marketable is timeliness in a lot of ways. You know, I mean, hey, for my podcast, I read. I read every author's books. I read 100 or more books a year. I read two books a week. So what has always struck me is how Often I read a book and it almost feels like divine timing. You know, you read a book and you think this is exactly what the world needs right now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, and I feel that way about my book, quite honestly. I mean, when we started writing this book at the beginning of the pandemic, what I could not have known was that we were going to end up in the United States with the highest unemployment rate since the Great Depression. Right when the rate of unemployment goes. And I didn't. Here's another aha moment. I didn't realize this until I interviewed the CEO of the national association for Self Employed, which I didn't even know there was one until last year, but when I interviewed him, he's the one that pointed out to me, so, yeah, when the rate of unemployment is higher, so is the rate of self employment. That's so obvious. But I just never occurred to me. Yeah, right. So I look at, it's like, wow, this, my book has the potential of divine timing. Like this is coming out exactly when I wrote it for people that were already self employed. But now I'm realizing it's a fantastic resource for people that are looking for their next thing. Maybe because they lost their job or maybe they've decided they wanted to do something different. And I just find I come across that says what makes something marketable often is the intersection of timing. Is this what the world wants now or are you just ahead of it? Because, you know, if you're just ahead of the curve, as you know, there's an education process you have to. But just knowing that becomes part of the marketing strategy if you're a little ahead of the curve.

So when, when it comes to the self employed, you, you mentioned that some people are being unemployed. Greatest unemployment since the Great Depression. Are some people going into self employment not because it's a degree of clarity or something they desire, they just need to survive. And if that's true, I assume some people are. What's the balance between putting food on the table and giving fulfillment to yourself?

Yeah. Who? That's a, that's a loaded question. And I'm not sure. I mean, I suspect, I mean that, you know, if you're in a situation where you have a family to feed and there's something, you know, you can, you can. I mean, isn't that what's fascinating about entrepreneurs? Right? We make something from nothing or you know, or maybe they're going to buy into our franchise or something. But that, that to me is the American spirit that I love the most. Like, I love the grit, you know, I love the attitude in people that want to step up and do something. And hey, maybe it's because their back is against the wall, but that's noble to me. Yeah, that's incredibly noble. What I hope is that what can come from that and, you know, especially for the work that you do, you know what happens when people gain financial freedom? You know how that changes your life.

Financial.

Financial freedom gives you choices. So if it takes someone starting a business because it's the thing to do, then if that gives you the financial freedom, then to do maybe do the thing you want. Fantastic.

Yeah, right.

So it may just be a stepping stone. Or it also is possible you can find, once you start that thing, even if it's because your back is against the wall, you may find something in that. And I tell a story in the book how my first entrepreneurial venture was selling eggs at the age of 14, door to door. Now, I had said earlier, paralyzing shyness, like, hardly anything scary. I wanted to throw up before every door I knocked on. But I did it because when it snowballed, once I started doing that, I became so fascinated by business that the benefits of what I was gaining was greater than the fear. And that's when you move forward in your life. I didn't let the fear paralyze me. It was there, right? I still feel fear before I walk on any stage to give a talk. Hell, for that matter, I'm still nervous before every photo shoot, even after 36 years. Right? There's, there's. But, man, that was. That was paralyzing. It could have been paralyzing fear knocking on doors to. To sell eggs. But the mystery of business became bigger to me. I became fascinated by what made people buy. And I tell a story in the, in the book, how, you know, the way I did this is I. My mom, because I was 14 years old, I could go some drives. My mother used to drive me to this farm on Thursdays. I struck a deal with a local farmer. So he would get the cardboard cartons, the eggs would go in for me. He had access. I didn't. I was 14. But I would go on Thursdays, my mom would drop me off at this farm and I would collect the eggs and put them in the cardboard, the things that a dozen eggs come in. And in the beginning, I was meticulously cleaning off all the eggs because there's a lot of chicken poop on them. And there was a point where I realized, after doing this, I realized that this was part of the intrigue. Now, mind you, this was, this was in the country, if you will, was two hours outside of New York City, which back in the day and was very remote. But primarily the people that lived there were New Yorkers. And the reason was, which is why my family ended up there, was. It was the. It was the starting the launching pad of what was to become a startup computer company called IBM. My father was one of the first 90 employees at IBM's production Armonk. Armonk's, the executive offices. This is Hopewell Junction, East Fishkill, where the plant was called IBM East Fishgill, but that was the production of the computers. And so they were bringing people in from all over, a lot of people from New York City because this was a good job. So people were living in the middle of nowhere, against the resistance to some degree, but they did it for the job. So they were primarily New Yorkers. So this idea of farm fresh eggs was hot and kind of a sexy appeal. So I started leaving some of the chicken poop on the eggs. Right. And realizing, because that's what people were drawn to, like this farm fresh idea. And so to me, the fascination of business became bigger than my fear. So I think sometimes it's just getting going, right. Sometimes get moving. Create something if you have to. If your back is against the wall, create something and see what comes of that. See what you learn from it. See what your next stepping stone is.

You know, I read your book, the prerelease you sent to me and that was my favorite story. I think I even emailed you sharing.

You did? Yeah.

And what I loved about that was this dynamic learning, like as you're selling this, realizing the emotional impact. And I only assume that when people ate those eggs, it tasted better, something was better because there was chicken crap on it, right?

Yeah, yeah, it was, it was, you know, it was the. I mean, we pay. You pay extra money in the grocery store now for your free range chicken.

Totally. Right, right.

I think I was onto it before it was a thing. Yeah, yeah.

And people want, you know, brown eggs or spotted eggs. We don't want the solid white because maybe they're bleached, which I don't think they are, but yeah. So when it comes to the self employed life, what are a few tips or strategies you have for someone doing it right or getting started with it?

Yeah. So for one is, I think, you know, part of the challenge of being self employed. And again, this is another paradox, if you will, is that I think there's a Lot to be learned from looking at how other people do things. Some of my best ideas I'm my decades of business came from much bigger companies. You know, be it Starbucks or just watching what other people do but then running it through what I often refer to as your, your own filter of discernment. Right. Take the best of what an idea but you have to run it through your filter of discernment like how it fits for you. And often the transition is when we're self employed we tend to be in more relationally based businesses. So you have to take that idea perhaps that you might gain from something else you see in the world but then turn it into how does it support building relationships? Because most self employed businesses, I don't care if you're a deli or you are in a service oriented business as an author, a thought leader or speaker or what have you, it's about relationships and you know, the actions will tend to see bigger businesses. I guess the most classic example is how often you see a business which tends to be a bigger business like a cable company or something offer a deal for new customers only. Okay, that's a death sentence for a self employed business. In fact it should be completely the other way around. Like to me and I'm very big on creating retention and customer loyalty, my photography business always thrived on 60% retention. That was our most important statistic was knowing that 60% of our annual business was going to come from previous clients. So to me if you're in a relationally based business, you actually want to have a system, a process in your business whereby your customers, your repeat customers are gaining benefit by being a repeat customer and hopefully something more meaningful than just a punch card. And you know, you get a free drink every five times or something. It's a start. But what's the next level of that? So a lot of times my idea, how I handled that in my photography business, the idea came from Starbucks but it was a matter of translating it into the right size business. And that's something I talk a lot about in the book when it comes to offering marketing strategies is they need to be right sized. Right. We can get ideas from big businesses but they need to be adjusted for the to be right size for your business, whether you're a team of one or a solopreneur. So that you're not. I think it actually is a detriment to try to come across nowadays is bigger than you are.

Yeah.

You know, when I'm working with a client's website I often Say, you know, pick a person, are you going to talk in the first person or third person and be consistent? You know, but nowadays, I mean, there are big companies are trying to look like us. There are big companies are trying to come across more entrepreneurial because they want to deepen the relationship. I think it's kind of right now out of fashion for a one person business to talk about their team and we, I mean they're legitimately can be. And I think a virtual team is still a we.

Sure.

But I think there's a delicate balance there that you don't want to, you know, over exaggerate.

Oh, I agree. Because if that comes across as artificial or manipulative.

Yeah.

You're in deep trouble.

Right.

That's never lost. So, and let me, let me ask you one more question before we start wrapping things up. What if I'm a larger company? Like what is, where does self employed no longer happen? If I have 10 colleagues, but I'm, I own the business, I'm working at, Am I still self employed? Is there a range?

You know, it's a great question because I, when I did the, when I had advanced readers reading the book, I actually say in the book, I've written this book for businesses of five or fewer people. Like, I decided to pick a number. But honestly that comes from who I believe who I know listens to the podcast. Now we, I also know that there are several companies, a former, a former photography client, I shouldn't say, I guess a photography client of mine was a former CFO of Twitter and he let me know that they listened to it. They did listen, used to listen to the podcast in the offices at Twitter. So I'm fully aware that there are larger companies that listen to this show that are really geared towards businesses of five or fewer people. But again, I believe they're listening to understand the perspective, the entrepreneurial perspective. So we stay, you know, on my lingo of five or fewer people. So I wrote the book with that same audience in mind. One of the advanced readers I chose very intentionally was a woman who owns a manufacturing company and she has 40 employees. And I knew she was out of who I wrote the book for. But her comment back, her feedback was she acknowledged that she recognized that she was not necessarily the target audience, but she gained, you know, she outlined how much she gained from it because she was able to apply. Mike, I think you know, the best way to answer your question. I think you and I both know a success minded person will see the strangest of things and extract Something from it. Yeah, that's just what we do.

Yeah.

You know, I, Yeah. One of the things that motivates me the most are restaurants. Like I'm highly motivated by well designed restaurants because there's, there's like a standard. A well designed restaurant to me is a standard of perfection that inspires me to leave there and be better at what I do. That's just a personal motivation for me. But if you're success minded, you will pick out anything and figure out what to do with it.

Agreed. My friends, this is Jeffrey Shaw, the author of the Self Employed Life. I want you to get it on Amazon right now. I'll tell you, it's extraordinary storytelling. The chicken poop just scratches the surface unintended. And also pick up lingo. It is actually one of my favorite books. Jeffrey King keynote, keynoted at our annual conference. I was so impressed by the book and guy standing ovation, which is rare among my community and was rated the number one speaker because he's that good and the content's that good. So get lingo and get the Self Employed Life. Jeff, where Jeffrey, where can people go and get more information about you?

Yeah. So a couple things and if you don't mind, I want to throw this in there because of the time at which this is coming out. Yeah. So this conversation, the Self Employed Life will go into pre order early March. What you don't know because I haven't really made it public yet is I've created a two day online summit called Self Employed Summit with 10 of the most amazing speakers, many of which you'll know access to. The summit is the pre order of the book. So if there's ever time to grab a book, grab the book because then that's your ticket to this two days of amazing, amazing, amazing content. And I mean I'm excited about the book, but I think I'm more excited about the summit. Like I'm so excited about the content that's going to come out of that. Like the speakers are amazing. But a good place to start would be self employed assessment.com this is my new tool to really help people start. So it's self employedassessment.com it's a really cool. I've put a lot of effort into this assessment of understanding what are your strengths and weaknesses specifically in your self employed business. And then the report gives you back some starting points as to what you could do next to balance out that self employed ecosystem, if you will.

Oh, that's.

You grab that. You're going to. Yeah. You're going to find me everywhere else if once you grab that.

Yeah, that's fantastic. And just if I want to go to that conference, I'll buy a copy of the book. How do I get the receipts? You or how do I get signed up for the conference?

Yeah. So basically it's, I know that it's, believe me, you know how stuff like this where it can get complicated. So yeah, you just email me the receipt.

Super simple.

Yeah. And there's. It's info infojeffreyshaw.com I mean there's a. If you go to the Self Employed Life me. The Self Employed Life me, you can pre order the book. This is the other cool thing we did, Mike. Hey. The book is called the Self Employed Life. I didn't want all the sales to go through, you know, the big behemoth.

Yeah.

So I looked for ways like how can I support self Employed bookstores smaller online.

Right.

So there are actually nine. Nine online places you can buy the book. And I'm doing an indie bookstore tour. So I'm actually I've contacted 180 independent bookstores in the country and I've offered to do a free webinar for them because I want to, I want to get as encourage as many as the book sales to go through independent bookstores as possible.

That is super cool.

Right. So that's why if you go to the Self Employed Life me there's the nine online retailers there, you buy the book, you email me the certificate, you register for the summit, the two things get matched up and you're in. It's easy. Yeah.

Jeffrey Shaw, thank you for joining me today.

Thank you Mike, Always a pleasure.

All right, so there was Mr. Jeffrey Shaw and first of all I love that he has an assessment. I just want to start this. So go toself employed assessment.com but I will tell you that there was an interesting thing. I don't know if you heard, you two have heard of or three have heard of. This is most people don't like to take tests but love to take assessments and I don't know, I guess assessments. I don't know why that is self reflective and a test you show your ability or capability.

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

So they should just call every test an assessment.

Yeah. Are you helping? Tremendously.

Yeah.

Well I feel like it's being graded versus getting a result or insights.

It's giving insights versus.

Yeah. Yeah. I guess that's the reason. What's your favorite assessment you all have ever taken?

I like that Strength finder assessment.

I was gonna say the same.

Very thorough.

Yeah, I agree. I like that one, too. Somebody recently mentioned Mike, the Kobe.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Are we doing that?

Was Mike Matic?

Yeah.

We're not doing the Colby.

That was when we didn't do the Colby. Yeah.

There's so many, and I wonder how much they overlap.

Like, what are the three big dogs? The disc. Right. That's one.

Have you guys heard about disc predictive index? It's pretty big.

Yeah.

And I think Myers Briggs.

Myers Briggs or Enneagram or something.

Enneagram is big too. Yeah, I think that's more recently been in the business space, though.

Yeah, that's true. So I'll tell you, my favorite assessment was the five love languages because it's so simple.

I forgot that.

So simple. It's like the way you communicate is the way you want to be communicated too. I was like, okay. And it's just been so helpful. You know, I was telling Kelsey, I go around the office every so often. We all have our signs up there, and we were talking about one of our colleagues maybe on this call, maybe not. And like, oh, we're not showing this person. We're not communicating this person their love language necessarily. So you can. You can laud how amazing they are and the wonderful thing they did through. You know, we do the you're awesome reviews, and I'm sure that's landing, but not. It may not be landings effectively because their love language is demonstrated a different way. So I thought that was interesting.

Yeah, that's good to remember that you have to check in on those specific languages, basically, because I do forget that too.

And I love your picture, Amy. Every time I go there sitting like.

This as the best with my four chins as a. Yeah, it's the best.

Yeah.

Four chins. You're like, what, three years old? Three years old.

Three years old with four chins. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So. All right, so let's talk about. Let's talk about Jeffrey Shaw. JLone, let's start off with you, man. What. What landed with you?

So just as a. As a side note, Jeff is like the nicest dude. Like, really? He really is like. I mean, off air, he and I had communication through email. And yeah, he's just like super nice guy. I really loved what he said about. He asked himself, how can I grow to get more out of life? And then he. That was the one question. And then he wrapped everything around that. And then he said his goal was to increase capacity so success can meet that. And that just really stood out to me, I just really love that. I thought that was awesome.

You can see you even did it, I think by moving. Right. So he was in New York all the time and then moved down to Florida. I think really to expand his life experience. How he defines it, you know, wasn't like his, I think he was open to it in that move. Yeah, it wasn't like he was sat there with that intent. But he's to your point, observes that opportunity to grow and that's what he executes on.

Yeah, I mean it sounded, it sounded like he, he asked himself that question and then focused on that. So like wrapped everything around it. So every decision that he made in his life was that was the goal was to, to, to meet that.

Yeah, I just thought that was good. Yeah. What else guys?

I wrote down, I love the self employed ecosystem that he mentioned that when there's no barrier between you and your business because personal development and correlate. I thought that was really cool. And, and basically what Jeremy was saying too, like that rising together is very cool. You, you experienced that, right Mike? I mean your business, your business follows your personal growth, basically.

Yeah, you know what? I. Yes. I think our business, if you choose to be a business owner, can be an amplification of your personality, be a platform to put out in the world the form of expression you want to put out. I don't think it has to be someone goes out and they start a business. It could be simply with monetary goals. And I don't think that's a bad thing. I think it contributes. Businesses can do harm. I think that is a bad thing. But I think some entrepreneurs see it really as a form for self expression. That's how I see my business, what we're doing. And then it becomes a very viable business because I think it's easier to distinguish yourself. I don't think we necessarily look at in our case other authors and say, oh, how do we compete against other authors necessarily? I think we say how do we be the best of ourselves? And we learn from other authors and we leverage best practices. There's no question. But we've removed ourselves significantly, I think from a competitive mindset where I know my prior business. When I was in the forensics industry, for example, there was this company called Strauss Freeberg. There's another one called Krul. There's these companies like, okay, we have to win business over them. Their loss is our potential gain. And it was maybe not confrontational, but it was very competitive. It was about one upping someone else in this Business. It's really like Jeffrey Shaw's point is just kind of leveling up. For me, it's my leveling up myself. And I think for, if I can speak for you guys, it's leveling up yourself. And therefore we're not comparing ourselves to others. We don't feel right.

And doing better for the people that we're serving and for ourselves.

Yeah.

And then if you're in a. If you're in a competitive rut like those other, like the forensics business, say the joy is only there when you. Well, I don't know. Speak, speak to this, Mike. Is the joy only there when you are, you know, overcoming your competition? Because in this, in this scenario that we have now, there's opportunity for joy in so many ways, because there isn't. You don't necessarily have to win over something.

I think it's very interesting, Amy, that you got verklempt saying, sorry, it's not. When you overcome your competition. Like, I didn't know that was that important for you to crush other people.

Sorry.

Yeah, it's coming up, coming up.

Money, disgrace.

What?

I know you get excited about that and that's. It's wonderful.

You're so flattering.

Like, I could be wrong on this, but it feels like for me, as an outside observer with the author space, it feels more like, like handshaking between authors. Like, yeah, you, you guys, you know, it's like this little community and you're like, hey, oh yeah, let's get you. You know, it's like, it's very friendly and upbeat. Kind of.

Yeah. I mean, well, here's the selfish benefit. If someone reads one of our contemporaries books, say something. Don Miller, for example, is this extraordinary guy. I've talked about him a lot. If someone reads one of Don Miller's books, like storybrand, his brand new book is called Business Made simple, which I invite everyone to read. If you enjoy that book and get value from it, the likelihood of you wanting to read more books only amplifies knowledge. Like that is. It's not a either or, it's an amplification. So it's. It is inherent to our industry that you read Don's book. I want to encourage that. A, because Don's amazing. B, you know, maybe subconsciously, maybe consciously. I know if you love Don's book, you might want to explore one of my books in forensics. It wasn't that way. I didn't see it that way, but maybe it is, Maybe it is. Maybe if you engage the services of a forensics business and you derive benefit from that. Maybe you'll explore doing more forensic work. Maybe you'll look into other companies. But that was my mindset then. It was like it was either me or them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I feel like that's such a small box that you're operating within then, though, as opposed to thinking, how do I serve people better? Not within this framework that already exists.

Yeah, well, you know, that's another thing, Kal, that's interesting about authorship. There was a part of me that never. I didn't want to give away profit first, because if I did, that's my advantage, for example. Plus, up to that point, that was the thing I knew most. So if I gave it away like I'm giving away what I know most, well, what other value do I have to offer? But what I experienced is the more. And I got to say, we give away. Not I, but we give away. We're collectively putting out content regularly. The more we put out the best of what we can produce, the more it inspires. Producing even better stuff. I don't think different is better. Would be at the level it is as a book if we didn't take care of profit first and fix this next and the other books and put it out to the world. As Seth Godin says, we shipped the product, freeing up the space to perform at a higher level. You know, one takeaway I liked was Jeff said, balance does not equal measurements.

I wrote that down, too.

Energy grows. Why'd you write it down, Amy?

I just love that it was a whole new. It was a whole new perspective for me. That. And it. It just rang true for me. So I didn't mean to interrupt you.

Do you feel, Amy, for you, that you're living in balance, not based on.

Equal measurement, but by empowerment, which was cool. Yeah. And I. I don't think I was aware of it, but I think that is what I'm striving for. That is what I'm. I'm working for. And empowerment also is health in my world, basically, not just physical health, but emotional and mental health. So, yeah, I think I have been. But without saying it like that, not realizing that's what it was. I thought that sentence framed it so beautifully. Balanced does not mean equal measure. It means empowerment.

I feel like we do ourselves a disservice by thinking there's this either or, like work or personal life. I think we're fortunate to work in a place that does enable us to kind of show up as our full selves and not feel like we have to compromise parts of ourselves in order to develop in one way or the other. I think of it very holistically, but I think companies in general do a disservice by not permitting that allowance to develop as the person, the whole person in every aspect of their life. And I think as individuals, we do ourselves a disservice by not recognizing if we feel like we're compromising or sacrifices one for the other.

Agreed.

And then the other thing I took away was he said, do what your heart calls out to do. I wonder amongst just the four of us, but I wonder just globally, how are we not listening to our heart and we're just following something because it's a means. How many entrepreneurs are not self employed folks or anyone in a work capacity of any type is doing what they're doing, not because their heart bleeds to.

Do it, so to speak.

Yeah.

But they need, they feel they need to do it and therefore I wonder how much of compromise that's causing them us, you know?

Yeah, agreed. And I think obviously there are jobs that have to get done in the world and somebody has to do them. But I do think as companies, there's ways that we can fulfill, fulfill people and still get those jobs done. That might not be anybody's heart's desire necessarily.

Yeah. All right, that was interesting.

Sorry, I was just gonna add that. So this is like kind of like one of those. I mean, you're asking questions that maybe there aren't really any answers to, like. So I grew up on a Christmas tree farm and I hated, I hated maintaining the Christmas tree, Christmas trees. It was awful because it was like cutting and trimming and doing all the stuff.

Right.

And you're getting constantly poked by the needles and like your arms like got a rash on and everything. And then as I got older, I miss it and I, I appreciate it because it was like this kind of like very simplistic, you know, almost like a meditation kind of job. And I think that a lot of times people don't appreciate those, those little things when it comes to those types of tasks and those types of jobs. But then in hindsight it's like you kind of, you kind of gravitate towards that and you miss that in a way. You know, I don't know, I don't know how to word the way you were getting poked.

No, no, you can.

I bet you didn't think of.

Yeah, free acupuncture.

Yeah. No, seriously though, depending on the tree, like my arm would just be covered in like a rash because the Needles are just constantly, like stabbing you the entire time. But you smell like, you smell like SAP, which is kind of nice. Like, smells good. Yeah. But it gets everywhere and it's a pain in the neck to get off. Nail polish remover, if anybody wants to know. Nail polish.

There you go. Now I know the source of your rash. Let's, let's move on to, to the trivia. Second. I want to invite anyone listening in. We'd love to hear your questions. Email Ask Mike Michalowicz.com Jeremy and I had actually some interesting conversations recently that you'll hear on the kind of the midweek role of the behind the scenes we're doing. But we want to hear your questions. So email ask mikemichalowitz.com and please go to rateourpodcast.com so that you can give us a rating. It's the best way for you to help us spread the word and thank you for that. And it's the best way for you also to subscribe. All right, you got trivia questions for us?

Yeah, I. Forgive me, because normally I can relate to how it coincides with the guest, and in this one, I completely forget.

I think, I think it's because that's the trick. That's the question. How does this relate?

I think it's because in his bio, Jeff said something about, like, chickens. I could be wrong, but this is an egg. True.

He sold eggs.

That's it. Yeah, he sold it.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

See, I'm not crazy, just forgetful.

Yes, exactly.

So this is egg trivia.

Okay.

All right. So in 2005, the US produced how many billion eggs?

How many billion?

Billion. Yeah. Is it 50, 90, or 100 billion? Billion with a B.

Billion.

Is that crazy? Think about that. Billions of eggs.

Yeah.

Okay, question number two. So on the chicken shell, like the little, little divots on the, the outside of the shell. So in, in terms of this question, we're calling them pores. How many pores?

Even though they're not club pores.

Yeah.

I don't know actually what the technical term is.

What do you call them?

Pores? I'm going to call them pores for the sake of this.

I love it.

How many pores does the average chicken shell have? 10,000, 17,000 or 20,000? All right, you guys ready for number three?

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

A hen requires between 24 and 26 hours to produce one egg. But one hand on record was reported to have produced blank eggs in one day. Like so, like the, the most amount of eggs on Record. Right. So would that be 3, 5, or 7?

Someone was working overtime.

That's gotta be a rough day.

You know what's really fun?

That's a rough day in the coop.

Dude. I heard some woman who was pregnant got pregnant while being pregnant. Is that possible?

Yeah, I heard that too. What if there's two eggs? Like, if two eggs come out, then it is possible.

I had two separate pregnancies going on because I have a bicornate uterus. I have two uri. I didn't carry both.

So the funny thing is, when Amy and I would hang out, like, at the local pub with our friends, I would always announce that and share that, but I would make it more dramatic. Dramatic than it really was. Yeah.

There's another uterus hanging outside of her body, and it just drags along on the ground next to her.

Oh, my God.

The joys of your friendship.

No, the reality. Now I gotta say what I said, because now you're. You're. You're bashtazing. No, we'd be sitting there. Someone come up and say, oh, hey, Mike, good to see you. Like, I'm like, oh, let me introduce you to Amy. She has two vaginas.

That's what he would do.

That's what I would do.

Horrible.

I would be like, mike, it's not. You're like, it's not. I have two entire systems going on in my.

Amy have to have that conversation everywhere she goes.

I don't.

Is not like a fun conversation.

It's kind of weird. Yeah. I'm just not a good guy.

It's horrible. Like, people I didn't know that he knew he would say this to. Not just. No, not just people I knew some people I didn't know that you said.

Oh, no, I wouldn't. Yeah. People she wouldn't know. It became the bar trivia.

Like, you know, I don't know why I still agreed to meet you for drinks with Chris.

Who in this bar do you think has two vaginas? And Amy just settled down, people would be like, what the hell's going on? Coining Amy kind of sink below her chair.

Somebody remind me. This has to be an explicitly marked one.

Yes.

Aviel folds.

There we go.

Oh, God. You just.

Why do you.

Why do you cringe? Olivia folds and you don't cringe?

Because you said it. You said if I said it, it doesn't make me cringe. If you say makes me think, it makes me think.

There has to be a joke somewhere where it's like, what's better than One vagina, two vaginas.

All right, let's see where.

All right, this is real. Real quick anecdote. So ever since I moved, I actually live right next to a chicken coop. And a couple months ago, when it was warmer, I would. I was here in the morning. The roosters would be going crazy, but then I would hear the hens, and they'd be making these awful noises. Noises all the time. And I'm like, what is going on? So finally one day, I went to the chicken coop to check it out, and it turns out they're just laying eggs. Like, whenever they lay an egg.

Oh, they make noise.

They just make a horrible noise. Yeah, it's just like. Like, and they announce it, and then, like, they just keep. So I don't know.

I thought nature had taken care of them and made it a painless affair, but maybe not.

I think.

I think it hurts.

It's got to hurt.

Oh.

All right, so back to the quiz.

So.

Or the assessment.

Well played.

Well played.

The. The US produced how many billion eggs in 2000?

Look at you.

We need these.

Can.

I know. So anyone's watching the video? I have my card, my rating card right here. I throw on the screen. So.

Oh, and that way we can't cheat and, like, just change.

Exactly. Because you guys are changing, as I was thinking. So I want to show my note. 50 bill.

All right.

Yeah.

Of all of us, we're the ones that are changing it. 100 billion.

I said 90 billion.

It is 90. Yeah. So in 2005, the U.S. produced 90 billion eggs, and that was up from 68 billion in 1990. So 15 years.

Why?

Why up 20? Well, because they had to produce more because the demand for eggs.

Oh, all those keto diets.

There you go.

Keto.

Okay, question two. A chicken shell has how many pores on the surface? Is it 10,000.

This is 17,000.

I said 20k.

20K it is 17. Yeah.

Kelsey, well done.

Wow. Kelsey, she knows her pores that aren't actually pores that aren't even pores.

I would have five out what they're called. I don't know what they're called.

Here's my next answer.

All right. Hen requires 24 to 26 hours to produce one egg, but one hen was reported to have produced how many eggs in one day?

Seven.

It was seven. Yeah. Seven eggs in one day. It's crazy.

Wow.

What's going on? That chicken.

Poor chicken.

I know.

Just the whole. The whole day is just.

I wonder if it was like. Exactly. This is one day it was an off day. Went one. Or was it a perpetual egg machine?

That's a good question. I don't know. Maybe it was. I think it had to be a fluke because it didn't say anything about all of a sudden like the.

Yeah, because it didn't be like the biggest producing chicken until it died.

I wonder what the quality of those eggs were.

I would not eat those eggs. Little fact.

What?

So living next to a chicken coop, I've also learned that depending on what you feed the chickens can change the. The shell. So if you feed them hot peppers, apparently their shell is almost translucent, which is very weird.

Who would do that to a chicken? Don't feed the chickens hot peppers. Are you out there putting red peppers down in the spicy.

No, no, no. I think it's just, it's the, it's the capsaicin or something in the pepper. I don't know. I just know that the farmer. Because they just throw a bunch of produce out for the chickens so they pick through whatever they want.

Chickens eat anything.

Yeah, they do eat anything. They eat anything. Yeah.

All right, we, we gotta get outta here. So for our listening friends, I wanna invite you to go to self employed assessment dot com. Take the quick assessment and you can, you know, envision your own self employed life with Jeff's help. Thanks for listening in again. Email me any question you have at ask mike mcallowicz.com please rate the show@radhourpodcast.com and make sure you subscribe so you don't miss a single episode.