Why Treasury Careers Are About More Than Salary and Job Titles

Welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast, where I interview treasury professionals about their treasury careers. Each and every week I talk to treasurers about how they build their careers, where they are now, where they see both themselves and the treasury profession going to next. Let's get on with the show. So welcome to this week's Treasury Career Corner podcast. This one is a week with a bit of a difference. We have a guest that joins me, but it's lovely Katie Hardy, who works here at the Treasury Recruitment Company and has worked here at the amazing Treasury Recruitment Company for the past 7 years, as she told me the other day. We have some other anniversaries coming up. We are approaching— well, it's 8 years on the podcast that started a year before Katie joined me. Then we also have 24 years as a business serving all you treasury professionals for so long, we thought It's time we got together and talked, gave you some more career advice, but also reflected on maybe what we've seen in the market and how it's changed. So it's not a state of the market update. I thought we compare notes on what Katie is hearing. She's talking to treasurers, to treasury analysts every day, just as am I. And I wanted to ask her some questions. So Katie, As you said, 7 years this week. Amazing 7 years.

It is, yes.

When you think back, how has it changed and what feels maybe different from 7 years ago? Over to you, Ashala.

Yeah, I think that there's a difference in client expectations and candidate expectations. So with candidates, when I first started, it was all about what's the job, what's the salary. And I was here when COVID hit as well. So since then, there's been a lot more focus on flexible working. What's the progression and development in the role? What's the manager like as a leader within the business? A lot to do with culture, even though obviously we're seeing hybrid working, but there's still a way of maintaining that culture, even if it is hybrid. And I think it's around A lot more focus on what's the new role going to give me versus what I'm already doing.

And that, I just want to jump in, and that I know that you and I have talked about job titles. Someone walks in and says, I want to recruit a treasury manager, and it could be at one level. And I want to— another person says, oh, I want to recruit, and it's a much higher level, potentially head of treasury, but they mean completely different things. You've said, I've got to get on the phone with someone and the salaries wide range. We'll come to salaries later, but how do you think that has changed?

It's changed massively. Again, I think the big shift is it's gone from being quite black and white, coming from retail and fashion, which is quite open-ended. Um, when I first started, it was very black and white within treasury, whereas now it's, it's quite grey. Companies as a whole, regardless of whether they've got treasury functions or not, different job titles mean different things depending on the size of the team, depending on the size of the business. But I think what I've seen in recent years is that a lot of candidates focused on chasing job titles, whereas actually sometimes a role at the same level, but in a bigger business can give them that progression that they need from a technical and a softer skillset. And clients are coming up with weird and wonderful job titles when they're putting new roles into the treasury teams. There's been a massive shift on that side.

And I had that with New York, didn't I? I was recruiting in New York.

Yeah, you did. Yeah.

And the client was insistent. They weren't hung up on job titles, but the job title had to just be this one and it had to just be senior treasury manager. I went, look, I'm— and then they were saying, why aren't you getting me the right people? And I went, because people don't want that job title because they're already a senior treasury manager where they are. They want a deputy treasurer title because it's a direct report into the treasurer. This is what it does. Actually, they eventually, they listened to me, they retitled it and actually managed to recruit it direct, which was very frustrating, if I'm honest. But the fact was I gave best advice to the client, which is my job. People do listen to us. So yeah.

And I think, well, you've been doing it for 24 years now, but I do think there is a need to consult with clients and candidates alike when it comes to job titles. And I think not everything is black and white and Clients seem to be a lot more open to the advice that we're giving, and candidates have started to become a little bit more that way as well. And I think there's a big shift in terms of the technical capability. So I predominantly for the first, I don't know, 5 years, it was purely on Europe, on Europe. And there was never a big focus as such on, you have to have this qualification. It was quite fluid and they were very much like, oh, I want somebody who's all round with the treasury kind kind of 360 skill set. But then the whole thing shifted again because there's a lot more focus on— they want to have somebody who can do the day-to-day, but also take more of that helicopter view and that strategic viewpoint to support a lot more in building from foundation to first-class level of treasury departments. But I mean, as I said, you've been here for 24 years.

So what have you kind of seen that's sort The technical skills with a treasury person, they get you, they get you the interview and then, and they get you through the door. They get you onto the long list. You look at it, you've got to have a basic level, then the shortlist, and then we present it to a client. And then the client says, who do you like? Who do you think is best? I suggest the best people. And then they meet them. And then that's where the technical bit stops because then it's about, about people's LinkedIn profiles, about people's resumes. about the difference they've made at their businesses. And I think too many people get caught up in the day job and don't realise, I've got to make a difference. I think treasury has evolved. It used to, back in the day, 24 years ago, we were still coming out of an age where treasury professionals had a higher salary because they were the specialists. And well, who's going to look after money? Oh, that's our treasury guy. He sits in the corner office. Off you go, give the money. Now, and then treasury was like, oh, actually, I don't want to be in the corner office. I want to be part of the business. We, yeah, they battled through it and actually people getting in the mainstream. And that from that now, treasury teams, you know, I'm speaking at AFP later this year. That's one of the key things we— I'm talking about. I've got 3 amazing ladies joining me about how their voice is heard as treasury professionals with the business. And that's what we're going to explore, that actually it's about how they influence and how they connect treasury to the wider business. AI is coming along, technology. Treasury teams have always been lean. I think that's actually, you know, the, the focus, if you like, has come back to treasury teams coming to the forefront. Treasury teams that will take ownership and be able to operate more broadly within the business itself.

I think candidates in general are asking for a lot more, and as well as clients are asking For a lot more, you know, from your experience of if you had a handful of candidate calls per day, for instance, what are the kind of key things that they're going to ask? Because that's definitely shifted.

You're doing quite a lot of recruitment in the East Coast of the US at the moment. And again, you and I, the way we split it is I do the US at the moment, focus on, we will recruit there, but you and I, we split UK and then Europe. You're doing more of the focus. The fact is, first port of call is you for Europe, me for the US, and then either of us for UK. And I say all those things because each of those markets is different. In Europe, and I'll ask you about this in a minute, I think the balance of working sometimes is secondary to salary, whereas in the US, salary number one by a mile. I also think in The US, they— some of the roles I'm working on are 4, maybe even 5 days a week in office. Because, for instance, I've got one of my clients, they're a startup insurance company, and they're saying, we want someone in there. But actually, I can get people in 4 days a week. And they're actually, yeah, that's okay, because I want to be sitting next to the CEO and the CFO and the treasurer as we build things. They don't want it to always be like that. And I said, well, it's not going to be over time. it will become 3 days a week in office, and it might actually do that sooner. But the number one is, first question, well, what's it paying? Okay. Whereas certainly when I've spoken to European candidates, I'll ask you this first before I talk more, would you say that within Europe it's a bit more what's the work balance, and then we come back to the UK? What would you say?

Yeah, I think in Europe over the whole of the 7 years, taking into account COVID, they always had more flexible working in Europe than anywhere that I've dealt with before. I think that really hasn't changed, but the norm for Europe tends to be 2 or 3 days in the office maximum. And I think with candidates in general, that becomes one of the first questions to ask. And I think the shift from a client perspective is that they have seen that if they open up the role slightly in terms of flexibility. So 2 days a week, you'll find that the reach, because in, in some of Europe it's quite small and niche. So if I take Luxembourg, for instance, the treasury market isn't as big as the likes of London, for instance. But if they say only 2 days a week in the office, then it opens up the pool to people who may be near to Belgium and can drive and do a 2-hour drive twice a week. isn't a problem. So it opens up the pool quite a lot. And that's, I think in Europe, there's always been, yes, they want to know salaries. And I think it's become more of a problem over the course of the last 3 to 4 years, I'd say, where there is a massive challenge between the level of experience you get versus the salary that they're asking for. There's a lot more jobs versus candidates and they are demanding more money. And, you know, when I've been at Eurem, you know, working with different associations, A lot of clients come and said, is it just a challenge for us? And no, it's not. It's a challenge across Europe. And it seems to have sprinkled out into UK as well. I don't know if that's the same in America where salaries are quite important and foremost.

I think they are important to the individual first and foremost, but then quite quickly you get salary, hybrid, and then what's the job? And I think actually that's a key thing. Again, I think people get salary matters, but then could you be in another bad situation? You know, that's one of the key things, that the short-term increase sometimes is less valuable because you're not getting that broader exposure. You and I have talked about job descriptions and hiring, and in fact, I, I spoke at a conference in Texas a couple of years ago, and I said to everyone in the audience, job descriptions, who's put IT and technology on it and being an AI? And they were hands up. Fantastic. I said, okay, keep your hand up if you know about AI yourselves. And they were like, oh, and all these hands faded away. Yeah. So you're going to try and hire someone that can do AI and technology that's only just— so ChatGPT 2 years ago, if you'd said that, chat what? It's like, but you're going to ask people to code in LLMs. You're going to ask them to do this, but you can't measure it yourself. So you don't know if that's good or bad. I said, I think you need— there needs to be a bit of reality check there. I know you and I have talked about that across. Maybe UK and Europe. What's the, what are you seeing in job descriptions?

I think the thing is that I've had more time to consult with clients a lot. And it now has become sort of the norm, if you like, when I get a job description through and then we have naturally have our briefing call. I tend to say to them, there's an element of expectation from our side that they have looked at that gap that they've now got. And if it is a replacement. Do they need a like-for-like replacement? Can they move some of the capability to more junior people and enhance their jobs? Does it need to be that same level? Is that job role and that, those key responsibilities fit for the business now and going forward rather than, it's so easy to say, oh, panic, I need to backfill that person like for like. And actually it's around taking the time to understand actually how's the business changed since that person's been there and where is it going to?

Yeah.

And then what I've seen is that they get given the chance to put a job description together. And I kind of look at it and think, okay, this is a unicorn moment. You're looking for a unicorn. And if that was a situation, they wouldn't be recruiting in the first place because no one would leave that perfect job.

Yeah.

I find myself now on briefing calls saying to clients, okay, without looking at the job description, I want you to tell me the key, the top 3, maximum 4 things that are non-negotiable from a technical standpoint and a softer skillset standpoint. And then I want you to tell me the key focuses for this person to make them successful in the job role. And actually what I'm finding is a lot of their non-negotiables don't even exist in the job description. So it's, and I think it's more that the biggest shift across Europe and the UK I've found is that we are genuinely more consultants rather than recruiters because we are consulting with the businesses every step of the way. And I don't know if that's the same about, about the US. I know that one of the other things that comes up all the time is around salaries. And I know I've touched on it before about the discrepancy in salaries versus experience. And that's something that we do challenge clients on quite a lot. And I know, again, the US is quite A headline is around the salary, isn't it?

It's a headline that I think also Treasury, even though it's a specialist area, sometimes has to fit within these quite strict salary bands. No, we can only pay this to this. And I found myself not walking away from clients but saying, I can't help you. And they're like, yeah, why? I said, because what you want the unicorn, those top 3 things. This is this money, this is this money, and this is this money. They're like, all right. I said, I can get you that person in South Carolina. And they went, no, we want them in the office in New York 3 days a week. I went, okay, the salary is this then. We don't want to pay that, or it doesn't fit in our salary band. I said, okay, so what's senior treasury analyst? I'll get you a treasury analyst that could do this, or Senior treasury manager and get your treasury manager to do this, or treasurer even. When the senior levels, I said, but you've got to know, and I talked to someone just the other day about this, and I was— we don't recruit in California, don't recruit on the West Coast. We love you West Coast guys, and we're doing Vegas at AFP shortly, but salaries are markedly higher on the West Coast of the US than even New York and things because the cost of living is so much higher.

Yeah.

I'll come back into that about the coffee example. But the fact is, when I was recruiting for a client over in LA and they said, if we had the person based here in LA, what's the number? And I went, $350,000. And they went, oh, well, that, that wasn't in our budget. I went, that's what you want to pay for that treasurer? I can get you one of those at $350,000, maybe even $400,000. They're like, oh, okay, crumbs. Well, actually, no. Well, we were actually thinking about paying around $300,000. And I went, okay, for that I can get you someone in these locations, maybe probably over in Texas. And we ended up recruiting someone actually working on a remote basis, but for $250,000. But that wasn't— remote was the last thing. And actually, we don't do remote as generally working, but that was just because it evolved. And they said, well, we will consider people, or people in Texas, or people in these locations and things like that. And coming back to this conversations, I think it's a different, it's a different conversation because you can't transfer US market, UK market, and Europe. They are so different. If you like a treasury manager and the title can be quite misleading because I did this in one of the, again, one of the articles videos. If you take a cup of Starbucks coffee, other coffees are available, other chains are there. But you take a large latte from the local store here in the UK, and it contains one type of milk, a couple of shots. And I take that and I empty out as I get on the plane, or I drink all the coffee, and that cost me £4, say. And then I get off the plane in New York and I walk in, I said, fill that exact same cup. And they go, that's $15, please. I'm like, what? No, it's not magical coffee. There are no magic beans with it. And they're like, no, this is how much it costs here with our taxes and everything else. And you go— Okay, well, you're in America now because that's how much it costs, but then your salary might be that much higher. That's the key thing. Like a treasury analyst in— how much would the treasury analyst get in the UK? Just basic treasury analyst, say 3 years experience, just off the top of your head.

Okay, so that's probably— I'm recruiting one now, it's probably about £45,000, £50,000.

Right, so you're looking at that. I'm recruiting a— well, in fact, just recently recruited a senior treasury analyst in New York.

$125,000.

Yeah. And then people are like, wow, that's— I said, no, because it— that's how much it's going to cost to live in New York. I said, in actual fact, if that role was in Texas, that role might be $80,000 to $90,000 because the cost of living is that much lower. And then, oh, okay, all right. I said, it depends. The answer is, how much do you need to pay for that person? It depends.

And I think one of the questions that comes through on phone calls and on emails to us is, what should I be earning as a treasury manager in London or in Switzerland? And that all comes up to when we say to clients, have you benchmarked this salary? And not just benchmarking it with job ads and things like that, but have you actually got complete genuine data to check? And I think that's when we start having the conversations, obviously, about our salary survey.

Yeah.

Genuinely quite shocked at the difference between. And I know that we're coming into our next salary survey, uh, and I guess what's the biggest thing that you, you think will change or will be the biggest surprise?

Well, the first thing I've got to be careful about— I know I get my opinions and everything else, and I'm— I feel myself gently climbing the stairs to get onto my big soapbox. I can feel it now because I get so wound up. I see These other salary survey, Treasury salary survey snapshots, which are just baloney. When I just see them and it just says a treasurer in London earns from our rivals, and this drives me mad and I'm sorry, it then says £160,000 to £360,000. Shut your face. That is just like, I'm like, that is not a survey. That's just a finger in the air. That's what I've had to do in the past. That is why I created, and I'm passionate, so passionate about, we've got 1,600 people that do the salary survey now globally. And it's grown massively in recent years over in the US. So we've got a really good snapshot there. I would say the AFP, they do the granddaddy of all salary surveys. And I've said to them, that is the Bible of it because it breaks it down and stuff. But that's a big part. They've got a research team of like 3 or 4 people doing it. This is us, us doing it. We do it, we benchmark it, and we do it. accurately, but we don't have that bandwidth of people helping us. So, but we then do it so you can get a really accurate snapshot from treasury analyst to global treasurer across the US, across the UK, and across Europe. And there are discrepancies there as well. We get a lot of time, oh, could you do a Swiss survey? We used to do one. We can't because we don't have the bandwidth. There's like the team of 4 of us sort of thing. So we don't have the time. But the key thing I would say, I think that post-COVID, as you say, there was that hybrid thing and we were asking more about the questions about how many days a week. I think that's settled in different places. Just from you, I'll talk about the US, but what's general hybrid for UK? What's general hybrid working for Europe? What would you say?

Europe tends to be maximum 3 days a week in the office. More of the norm seems to be 2 days a week. UK, the average is about 3 days in the office, sometimes 4 maximum.

And the US, I think I, what I've noticed is it depends on where you live. It depends on where your office is. In New York, it's probably more, it's closer to 3 to 4 days a week in office. If you're in Texas, it's probably 3 days a week in office. I'm just trying to think of some of the other places I've recruited recently. Chicago, there's a good one. I'm recruiting currently a senior treasury analyst role there, goes toward treasury manager. Again, the treasurer there has said, look, 3 days a week in office. We're just establishing the office. We'll probably want to be in together 2 or 3 days a week. But actually after that, it'll probably just settle down to 2 days a week because we want to spend some time together, do some work together. But actually we might have some weeks where we're 100% remote. But that's not— it's not a remote job. If we were to go, oh, it's a remote job, we don't really get those remote jobs. That's one of the key things we do occasionally. I was going to say, we're going to do the results. So anyone listening, go to treasurysalary.com, take part in the salary survey, go on our website, update your information. If you're there, you'll be getting emails to look out for them and stuff. But what would surprise you when we start to get those results, as we will do? We're recording this beginning of September. So In a month and a half or so, the results will be out. What would surprise you, would you say?

I think what would surprise me is if salaries have slowed and stagnated a little bit. It will be interesting to see the changes in terms of bonus levels, because we're seeing a lot more changes in bonus across UK, I think, at different levels. And I'm always interested in how much emphasis they put on the more kind of cultural kind of side of things in terms of why would they leave? And it's like manager or progression or stuff like that. So I'd be surprised if that kind of slows as well. We've been talking to the listeners about various different locations, and I'm sure a lot of people have seen your face the first half of this year because you've been globe, globe trotting. And I think you're going into your second wave of globe trotting again. So I think it'd be good for listeners to understand sort of why you're doing all of these events. What's the reason behind it? Is it worth it?

Yeah.

Why?

First half of this year was that— there's that book or whatever where you just say yes, just so you've just got to keep on trying. And that was my— probably too many times I said yes pre-summer where I was between one of the trips or I was on one trip and you had another one in 2, 3 weeks' time. And then I got invited to speak at the ACT UK Treasurers Conference Literally 2 days after I got off a plane. But the fact is, if I'm going to be given an opportunity to be in a room with another 1,000 treasury professionals, shut up and say yes. That's your job. That's where I've invested in it, because I'm investing in that face-to-face time, because I think I see a lot of our rivals, LinkedIn keyboard warriors. I do a lot on LinkedIn, but I'm doing it because With the newsletter, with the videos I've got to shoot today's one. I'm trying to give people experience of what I've heard from other treasury professionals when I've been in a room with them, and I can actually say that. So two weeks' time, we're going for. I'm doing Barcelona, Luxembourg Treasury 360, Chicago, New York, back then London, then you know Vegas. Then yes, I'm doing AFB. Shut up and get on the plane. It's like. The fact is, that's my job, to look over the top of my coffee, maybe something stronger, hopefully in Vegas, and talking to, sitting with an analyst and asking what they want in their treasury career. And, you know, sitting around a table with, say, 10 treasury guys around our roundtable. So we're just in the midst of, so we've recently relaunched, well, we've got our Chicago event. Happening on 8th of October, and just did a mail shot the past couple of days, and it is blooming. It's going really well. New York did a reach out to a load of people yesterday again. Come to our round. We had 36 at our round in March in New York, aiming to get around that number again. But then we've also got Ask the Treasurer because I noticed a lot of badges were left at the end of the evening, and I thought, and again, that's going to be today's new video, so people should sign up to my weekly video. But very shortly. I saw someone moaning on LinkedIn that no one had showed up to one of their events. And they were horrible about people. Oh, these people came to our event last time. All these people signed up. No one showed up. I'm like, and you're blaming them? So maybe your thing was like a sales fest or something like that. So they're thinking, I'm not going to the next one. People come to ours and more people come the next time. They bring their colleagues, they bring things like that.

Because I think for some listeners, they might not realize that actually The Treasury Career Corner live events have definitely shifted over the last couple of years, well, over the last year even, because now we've taken on board feedback and some people won't know about the roundtables, what that is. Some people won't ask the Ask the Treasurer, but we've, in order to get those people to come back again, you know, we're constantly looking for feedback and trying to make it better and more valuable for them to take time out of the office.

Yeah.

Which is why now we've got those 2 extra Events within the bigger events.

We know it's an investment in time, and that's why we respect the people that come along. So our Treasury Career Corner live events are panel sessions, 6 o'clock registration, 6:30 sit down, I interview 3 treasurers. So it's amazing for you as a— you get to hear career stories from these guys, you get to learn from them the dos and don'ts for your career. You might be thinking about making a move, you hear someone on stage go I made that move. It was a mistake. You're thinking, hang on, maybe I'll get this great advice. If you're in the US, by coming to our events, you get CTP credits. Easy for me to say. One of the key things is people then, and then we do networking drinks. So you get to do this. And actually, I'm going to dive in and keep going because basically then with Brian, my business coach, we sat down and he said, right, you need to give more value. These guys are making this effort. So we created the roundtables. Where we have the treasurers choose the topics, then they rotate around themselves, no sponsors involved, Chatham House rules, go around the room, groups of 8 to 10, they rotate every hour, they talk about their greatest challenges. And one person will say, this is my greatest challenge. The group discusses it and gives loads of input. It's amazing. Then realized I saw all the badges at the end. Who wasn't coming? Analysts, managers, Because they're really up to the neck in it, but they still want the value. So we thought rather than moan about it on LinkedIn, we said, hang on, let's get something else and ask the treasurer. Did it in London. We had Stuart Case from Sky, Tanya from Acrashaw. Again, at 5 o'clock, we had 8 treasury analysts. I was like, oh my God, this is a mistake. But, you know, given the knowledge, actually by quarter past, we had 28 treasury analysts and managers just sitting talking to them, asking them about their careers. It was off the charts amazing. We're doing the same in Chicago. We're doing the same in New York. Well, in Chicago, we're just doing Ask the Treasurer and then the panel. But in New York, we're doing roundtables. We're doing Ask the Treasurer. We're doing the panel. It's amazing. And for anyone listening today, you should sign up or get your ass across there. And then in November, we're going to do the same in London with our roundtables. We do it for you guys. We don't do it for us. It's not a sales event. It's about being in a room with you guys. So I was asked just this week, someone said, how come you've managed to keep it going for so long? We've had over 440 episodes, one a week, but like this. We've had 500+ guests. And the key thing about it, I said, look, every single person on that has a lot of the— has the same job title. They are called treasurer. And it's like when I'm in Barcelona, I'll be talking to people and they're within Within an arm's reach, there'll be ten treasurers. I'll say all of these people, same title, different jobs.

What?

Really? Yeah, no, because one is debt laden, one is cash rich, one is centralized, one is decentralized. One does it this way, one does it that way. One is very tech heavy, one is very tech like oh okay. And one has a team of eighty, one has a team of ten. You're like okay, we've got the same job title. It's all different and things like that. So. Yeah, that's one of the key things I found with it as well. We said right back at the beginning of the show, it's been 7 years. Oh, you lucky lady.

I know.

And still here.

Doesn't time fly?

It does. So I'm gonna talk to you, just do some quick fires. We were going to do this at one stage on the podcast, but I always thought putting a treasure like that on the spot, they didn't really like it, so we don't do it. But I can do it to you, it's fine, and then you get your own back. So, um, I'm gonna give you some— no, I'm not gonna give you clues. I'm gonna put you on the spot.

Okay.

Client side, what's the most frustrating thing? Be careful, we want to be nice and well, but what should they do or don't do or whatever?

I think one thing that they should stop doing is, as I touched on before, is want— is chasing that unicorn and, and then paying less.

Anything that, just last couple, anything that candidates, what should they do more of?

I think they need to be continuing networking, not just when they're looking for a job. I think they need to build their A deeper and broader treasury skillset. I think when it comes to interviewing and things like that, they need to explain their achievements and focus on that. Because when you go into an interview, if you're a treasury analyst, the interviewer takes it as standard that they're going to have certain skillsets, but they want to know what makes them better than the next person.

And clients, what should they do more of?

I think the biggest thing is to realize that the interviews are two-way and that they have a job to sell. that, that role and the business to them, especially because a lot of, well, the majority of our, our candidates aren't actively looking. So they need to focus on what dangling that carrot and sort of focusing more on the salaries and quicker process. Okay. So what do you think's changed most in the 24 years that you've been doing recruitment for Treasury?

I was one of the original people that got onto LinkedIn when I was working in my previous company. And they were like, what's this LinkedIn thing? I went, well, I think social network, blah, blah, blah. Now people can do lots of things themselves. I think that links into the fact that not every treasury professional necessarily, they will be on LinkedIn a lot of the time, but they don't. Then I was talking to someone just this week, they haven't updated their LinkedIn in 3 years. They've moved a job by now and I'm like, oh wow, okay. And so yeah, so LinkedIn, that's a key thing. I think interviewing like this, we're doing this over Zoom. There's Teams, there's all the other platforms. I think that people need to think more about how they present themselves a little bit more. A beat before this, you and I rehearsed. Do that if you're going for a job. You do this. It doesn't take long to actually think it through. You've got tools you can use like ChatGPT, AI, and things that can help you make yourself better. But the flip side of that, what has— what's changed, but what hasn't changed? I think actually people. And I think, well, maybe, I don't know, maybe it has changed. It used to be One stage in the earlier days and throughout, I was seeing people every week and I got really quite tired of it. Every Thursday I was in London. I was in London, my office, but every Thursday I was meeting people all day. And then I just wanted to stop doing it. I just did. And the team had said, oh, you're there every Thursday and having a bit of a jolly and seeing clients. And actually, yeah, I was a bit— I said, and they, then they said, actually, we looked at the results you've got from that. And I was like, oh yeah. And they said, it's added 6 figures to the bottom line. I was like, why? And they went, because of all the networking you do. And that's why we've condensed that, if you like, through our events and things like that. So how I say that to you as treasury professionals listening, get out of your corner office, come to our event, go to an industry event, get off your butt and actually invest in yourselves. That's what I say all the time is like coming to our event, we provide the platform. You've got to walk in that door. I've already had someone say, oh, I can't do New York. Yeah, sorry. And I thought, well, they're actively in the job search now. It's 6, 7 weeks away. Surely they could invest in that. Oh no, I can't do that. I'm busy that evening. 7 weeks away and you're desperate in the job search? Yeah, you're not that desperate then. So yeah.

Would you say that's the same advice in terms of networking? That you would have given somebody 20 years ago? Has that changed, that advice?

The fact is you can never move a relationship forward by sending a LinkedIn email or an email. You can only move a relationship forward by direct contact. Now that can be through the phone, maybe it can be through Zoom or Teams, but nothing better than sitting with someone. And I've got it coming up next Thursday, I'm in town. Then should we say to Barcelona? That's like networking on steroids. The same with our events. The same with Luxembourg. The same with our events. We're going to have 100 people at New York. We're going to have 70 at Chicago. I total it up sometimes and say, I'm in a room with over 1,000 treasury professionals over the— I think the investment in that treasury is still a networking business. And I think that's one of the key bits.

And what are candidates still doing wrong and what are clients still doing wrong, would you say?

Okay, we'll do each of them. Candidates, what are they still getting wrong? Yeah, your presentation stinks. It's like if you were presenting to your boss or the board or to other team members, you would do a nice slide deck, PowerPoint, might use other tools to make it look really good. Brilliant. You look lovely. Then you send us your resume and it has spelling errors. You're like, what the heck? We look at your LinkedIn profile, it doesn't have a photo on it. It's free, guys. Have a quick 2-minute look on your Friday coffee when you're listening to this. Just have a quick look at your LinkedIn. When was the last time you updated it? Took 60 seconds just to add a line. One of the key things I'm saying is I even saw it this week, a really good candidate sent me their— said, I would love to chat to you. And it said, I'm a strategic leader and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then the rest of it showed me nothing, actually showed me it was just bland. And I was like, right, if you are strategic and I'm going to be talking to them, I said, where did you save money? Where did you move the needle for your company last year?

And so I suppose if I'm a treasury professional listening to this now, and I think I might be looking at my move in the next 6 months, what would be your advice for me?

Email, call, drop a line, come and meet me or you at one of the conferences, have a sit down for a coffee. Don't wait until you need to leave. Be active. I talked to a treasurer, in fact talked to him end of last week, and he was doing the same. He was saying, look, I'm all right at the moment, But I think looking at a crystal ball, start to do so. What should I do? I said, invest in yourself now. Go out with your bankers, get those relationships. Maybe you're not going to do some debt capital raising, maybe you're not going to do that, but actually warming those relationships. Put yourself out, say, yeah, I'll be on a panel, not just for me, for them at a session. Volunteer with your local association. And I called him and actually spoke to him yesterday. I said, I thought about this, you need to be on my podcast. He was like, oh yeah, actually that's a good idea. I was like, yeah, because that then it's your walking, talking resume CV. So this US chap, and he said, yeah, I'd really enjoy that. Is that all right? I went, I'd love to have you on. But it was just because we've known each other for ages and things like that. So invest in yourself now. Secondly, benchmark your salary. It's— we run it every 6 months. It's free, costs you nothing. It's confidential. You go on there. When you go for your pay review later this year and someone says, well, what's leading you to believe that you're 10% under the market or 20%? I said, here's Mike's survey. This is where we benchmarked it. Don't come in with it first of all, but go in with the evidence and stuff like that. So I think you have all that, and then that'll naturally lead into, again, the phone calls. You'll start to get phone calls, you start to get people flipping around. If you're a treasurer To you and you're thinking about you're going to recruit someone, what should you be doing if you're thinking about refreshing the team and things like that, Katie, and you're— someone's going to recruit, what should they be doing?

I think if I put my HR head on, you need to look at the job and that gap, see whether you need to replace it like for like, what's kind of shifted, what could be added on. And when you've got that, you really do need to be clear about what this person coming in needs to accomplish? What is it in terms of the non-negotiable technical and softer skillset that's really needed of separating that unicorn? And then I, the salary plays a big piece. Make sure you've benchmarked the salary properly, tested sort of location and what hybrid working you're offering versus what the market is saying you need to offer. And the biggest thing, especially if you're recruiting through us, as I said earlier, the majority of our candidates aren't actively on the market, so they're not actively applying for jobs on LinkedIn or through company websites. So actually have a real think and be prepared. Why should this good person who's not unhappy in their role move to your role? And really think about that, that kind of USP. And then make the process quick. You know, these people, these good people will go and, you know, they're judging You and your business through that candidate experience. So the timely feedback is critical throughout and you've got to move it within pace because that in itself builds a perception for the candidate of what it's going to be like to work in that company. And I think a lot of clients forget that.

This is September, so we've got the lead up to Christmas. So the next, looking in the crystal ball, 3 to 6 months. What's the thing that you're going to be watching out most closely between now and then that you think is going to be happening looking in yours?

I think candidate availability is one thing. I think the salary expectations, what's going to come out of the salary survey. Um, and I guess we have got that window between now and when inevitably the children break up for Christmas and how those processes go and how the hiring confidence is within clients.

Yeah.

And right back at you.

Geopolitics, Katie. That's not a word I thought you thought you'd hear from me. I think—

Not one I use every day.

But joking aside, what I've heard from— I'm talking to a lot of US clients, UK, Europe, right the way across really, Western economies, let's call it that. We've had some very unsettled years past few years. I'm not a political person. That's not my thing. I'm not on a soapbox for that at all. The Treasury professionals like is stability. They want stability that helps them with their jobs, predictability so they can manage risk and all that stuff. What I am starting to see is, let's give you a snapshot. Actually, I've closed it down, but my Outlook this afternoon is full. What I mean is I've got a call at 2 o'clock from a client who wants to recruit. At 3 o'clock, I've got someone who wants to be a sponsor of our events because they want to be in the room with the treasurers. Then I call with another client at 4 o'clock to talk about a new briefing. 5, 4:30, I've got another one, another role. If you're in New York, come to me. I've got 1, 2 treasury analysts, 1 senior treasury analyst role. I've got another vacancy coming up in Chicago, and then I've got a couple of feedbacks about some other roles we're recruiting in Chicago. So the US is coming back. You and I know we've already got calls next week booked for some UK searches.

Yeah.

That's coming back. I'm out in Barcelona. By the time someone listens to this, it will be only a week away before I'll be getting on the plane. And actually, we're filling up with coffees and drinks and stuff like that where I'm going to sit down with these treasurers. I'll talk to them about them and their treasury careers. I'll talk about them as recruiters and also talking to them about the podcast as well. So it's been amazing. Any final words from you, and then I'll give my final sign-off?

No, just, um, keep listening and, and look out for any jobs that come onto our website. And always, we're always here for a chat if you need any advice.

All I would say is we're— I think you and I, we're still— I'm still learning. It's been a number of years I've been doing this. We will do more celebrations, I'm sure, but from 24 years coming up in as the Treasury Recruitment Company, 30 years as a Treasury recruiter. Then it'd be nice around the same date, actually, that's when we published it, 8 years of Treasury Career Corner podcast, which is actually, actually going to add something to that. I'm just grateful to you if you listen to it like you are doing today. Thank you very much. Let me know you listen to it, please. We don't get the feedback from Apple or Spotify and other platforms. So let me know you're interested. If there are people that you think, and you're listening and you are a treasurer, you'd like to be on the show, let me know. That's always the hardest bit to get guests and things like that. So it's— I thought we'd do 10 episodes, we've done 440 plus. It's then led to everything else. We've got some massive news about a joint event we're doing in the US next year in May that will— we're going to start to announce that in next week or the week after, so look out for that. But finally, we'll put some photos of this. 7 years of working with me, obviously an utter privilege for you, Katie.

Yes, it has.

I mean, every day is a school day, you're just learning. Just thank you very much for putting up with me.

And thank you.

Yeah, thank you very much.

Thank you.

Before we finish, a quick reminder, we've got a few discounts that could save you some money. First, if you're heading to Eurofinance in Barcelona this September, you get 10% off your registration through the Treasury Recruitment Company. Then in November, I'll be speaking at the AFP National Conference in Las Vegas. You can also access a discount on your conference registration. I know, you're welcome. There are also discounts available for CTP and FPAC qualifications, and don't forget, you can earn official CTP credits simply by listening to Any of our Treasury Career Corner podcast episodes and complete the short quiz afterwards. You'll find all the details, codes, and links on our partners page at treasuryrecruitment.com/partners. Go have a look, use the discounts, and let's save you some money. Many thanks.