I Gave Advice to 5 Home Service Millionaires

If you're struggling to grow your home service business to $3 million in annual revenue, this video is for you. I'm talking to five different entrepreneurs ranging from $900,000 in annual revenue to $1.7 million in annual revenue. And they're all trying to get to $3 million in annual revenue. So I'll give you the exact strategies you need and we're going to use their five questions to guide us along the way. Let's get started. Number one.

Hey Mike, it's Connor. I'm with Augusta Lawn Care. We'll do about 1.6, 1.7 million this year we had 20 employees at peak and my question is, as we are breaking our locations up into multiple satellite locations versus the one large GM plus model, what are your thoughts on on the office controlling the schedule versus the local working gm, GM or GM plus. Like having them control the schedule in house versus the office doing, putting the jobs on the schedule, assigning team members and crews, actually scheduling the crews, making sure time off is in all of that stuff. Just another thing to take off the plate of the general manager. I know it will get complicated with late call offs people. No showing different things like that. However, assuming you have a pretty consistent team, I think this is something that the office can do to fill those valleys between, you know, high demand hours and low demand hours. I'm curious on your thoughts. Thanks.

Fantastic. All right. For all the haters out there that commented on Connor's video about what, nine, eight, nine months ago, saying he was going to fail and everything, I'm very happy to tell you he's doing great and so crushing out there. They work through a lot of restructuring. And I think the skill that Connor has learned this year and is continuing to learn is the part we talked about earlier in the live stream, that is managing managers. And so what they did as he recognized that that was his skill gap, what he actually did is he brought all his locations under his control and used all under one spot. That that shop space that he was renting or is still, I think he's still there was something like 10 to $12,000 a month in rent. Very difficult to make money. So what now he's doing is he took this year reconsolidated. These general managers get all everyone in one building. It's easier to manage when you don't have that skill yet. You get your skills, you get your great team that is used of you now and, and you start to learn that skill. And now what he's trying to figure Out. Hey, how can we get out of this? 10, $12,000 a month? How can we break this up a little bit more? How can we actually make sure that we're not driving as far we have a general manager manages, you know, 500,000, 600,000 of that revenue and breaks things out over time. The question though is, should the office be handling the scheduling or should this be on the general manager? Okay, I think this, this is much more of a. A continuum than a. Than a dichotomy. What I mean by that is it's not like, yes they should or no, they shouldn't. It is a sliding scale based upon recurring revenue. The higher the percentage of recurring revenue, the easier it is to do scheduling. Also, another sliding scale is the continuity and the longevity of the team. So location and growth mode. Very difficult to do scheduling because your budget hour rate, your budget hours are going up every week. If your team has stayed with you in profit mode for 2, 3 years on average, they have the same routes, the same customers, people been here for a long time, the same trucks. All the trucks are standardized, all the mowers are standardized. A whole lot easier to do scheduling. So when I moved out of daily operations, one of the first thing I did once I was in profit mode for a few years and I had enough money is I just bought new trucks for the whole team. Mostly not because I think I want new trucks. Well, it was also because Covid made used prices go way up through the roof. So I got new trucks. But it was mostly to make scheduling easier for the general manager because ultimately I would rather the general manager take on scheduling because it is such a key component of profitability that if I'm going to give them a piece of profit sharing or owner's distributions and then handicap them by saying, I control your scheduling, it's hard for them to take accountability fully for the position. That being said, if you're in growth mode, it's much more challenging when you're adding jobs every day. You got projects coming in to fill in the gaps. But now you got to think about the fact that you're adding jobs every single day. So in four weeks, when you're booked out, your schedule looks totally different than it does today. That's very hard to schedule. So this would be my recommendation, Connor, if you're in growth mode, I would have your office do your scheduling. If you're in profit mode and you hit all the benchmarks of profit mode, which means very high rate of recurring revenue, simplified services, you're in profit Mode, meaning we're not marketing or advertising and getting a whole bunch of new customers. Meaning we aren't jamming like every single week, hiring more people, getting more trucks, getting more equipment, expanding capacity all the time. We're not doing that. Then I would try my very best to get the general manager to do the scheduling. Cause it's such a key component to profitability. Because if I'm going to give them a piece of revenue, like incentive in revenue, well, if they're close to the end of the month and the office doesn't put quite enough budget hours to get the jobs or get enough revenue to push them over the threshold, guess who they're going to blame? They're going to blame the office. And the last thing I want to do is ever have any mid level manager reappoint each other and cast blame. Ruined your culture so fast. And so your admin person is, is potentially incentivized or wants to make sure everyone's schedule is within capacity and you jobs go smoothly. Your GM on the other hand is like, I know if I just made $300 more this month, I would have unlocked a $500 bonus. And so I need them to have power over the schedule. Now if it's profitability, same thing if they know that one of their crews because now if you now have this other location and then office over here, office doesn't know the crew, the general manager does. And he knows that this one crew is very money motivated and can complete 10 to 12 budget hours a day during peak season. And yet they're only getting six or seven because that's what everyone's supposed to get. Because that's what the office is trained to do. That's why the power of scheduling in the general manager's hand is so important. Because they know their team and their team. Also I need the general manager to have full accountability for the schedule because when the team has a problem, they're going to come to general manager. If the general manager becomes in between simply of like, oh well, the office, I'm sorry the office messed it up or the office didn't put up on your route or like sorry, they only put six budget hours. I know you asked for nine or ten. I know you're super efficient. Like I'll talk to them, I'll try to figure it out. Like they can't, they're handicapped, they're like you just took out their leg. They can't manage their team effectively. But I would say 100% if you're in growth mode it's way harder to schedule if you're doing projects. Way harder to schedule effectively. And the growth mode thing is the real kicker because you're adding things to the schedule continually and adding new team members. So you're putting pressure on them, on sales, like getting all these customers upselling, managing all that. Then you got from operational perspective, like put them on the schedule, fit them on the routes, fit in the budget hours, make sure you're under capacity. And then they're also from an operational perspective, having to hire new people to take on this new demand. And you could very easily add 30 budget hours of new recurring revenue every month. That's like one or two jobs a day during spring rush. That's a new team member likely every two weeks. That's very difficult for a GM that has a team of six to eight people. Like they're adding a huge amount of operational drag because there's now more yellow slips and callbacks. And people make mistakes and they start making mistakes on scheduling because I think there's so many moving parts. So I would agree that in growth mode it might be a good idea to take on scheduling in the office. I would heavily push towards, if your general manager is incentivized on profit sharing, that you need them to be fully accountable to their team for the schedule. And they have the best pulse on where the team is at, especially if they're distributed workforce, I. E. Away from the hub, I. E. The command center. And so then I want as much as possible that GM do scheduling, but it's very difficult for them if I have different types of trucks, different types of equipment. All my team has been here for like a month or two. All of my. My trucks break down. I'm constantly marketing and driving, tons of work. I'm expecting them to do a whole bunch of door hangers, but also train new team members that are coming in every week. That's chaos. And that's when the balls will drop on scheduling number two on the docket.

Hey, Mike, My name's Jacob. I own a lawn care business up in upstate New York. We actually just got done a snowstorm. My business this year will do just under 900,000 and I currently have an admin person and operations person and I do sales full time gm, a lot of people are stepping on each other's toes. I still do a lot of the admin and the operations work.

Good chapter.

So I know I need to separate the roles and assign roles to people which I'm working on, especially this winter while it's Slow. But my question was what KPIs should I be using to monitor each role? Like just a few of the most important ones. And how do I actually monitor them? Like for admin, I'm guessing it's, you know, calls answered, accounts receivable, a lot of the stuff I use Homeworks. So I know a lot of that I can monitor in there. I also use like Ringcentral for answering phones. So should I just run a report out of there or are those not even important things to be monitoring?

I appreciate it.

Thank you for answering the question.

Let's go. Congratulations 900k Jacob. Thank you for being a member of Homeworks. Okay, couple things. KPI's very important for sales. Operation and admin. You are in the full time GM role which means you have delegated admin, you have delegated operations and you're mostly focused on sales. This is an exciting part of the business because you can grow very quickly because all of your time is focused on sales, I. E. Getting more work that is growing the business. Fun and exciting for entrepreneurial types. Also usually a tight spot from a profitability perspective because you're having to afford two full time overhead positions and that can be very hurtful from a profitability perspective. So let's get through it as fast as possible. Sales, we got to make sure that we have certain metrics. This goes all the book goes over all of these. I'm going to give you the highlights. It is very common during the full time GM phase is why I actually don't like going to the GM. The full time GM like going past like 1.2, 1.3. I don't like going there. I like the copy paste is because when I have mid level managers and they get to work together, we have drama. Drama. And so yeah, you're going to get a little bit of this. I try to avoid it by just not getting the point where I need multiple layers of management or multiple managers that are overhead. Honestly, that's the truth. So to prevent that you need clarity. You need clarity of the roles, you need clarity of what metrics they're responsible for. And you want to make sure you don't have perverse incentives. So for example, if you track and close rate like you should for sales, don't incent them on close rate because if they do, if you do, they will increase their close rate but they'll put pressure on budget hours and make the operations manager really brutal. And if you make the operations person incentivize like efficiency, they're going to get in the business of the admin person time and time again when there's complaints or when someone calls back and they want you to come back to the job, like, no, no, no, no. Like, they'll give way too many excuses and customer support will go down because they're incentivized on budget hours and capacity and efficiency scores, which I think you should do for operations. Agreed. But if it comes at the cost of someone else's paycheck or their incentives, we have a big problem. So that's why you want to be very, very, very careful of incentivizing specific metrics. Your focus on metrics will change as the business grows. So at the beginning, close rate is really important. As you move away from the business and you're in profit mode, you just care about distributable cash money in your pocket. So be careful about that, because you have to change their incentives, which can get a little hairy. Secondly, don't have perverse incentives between managers. And third, have very clear metrics of success. So if your close rate is something that you measure in sales, like, you should use the speedometer that we talk about in the book, and we'll go over this later in the training, even on today's live stream, use. Use the speedometer to know, okay, this is when you're good. This is when you're bad. This is when you're great. And those are like red, yellow, green of what those metrics should be looking like. So this is what good looks like. This is what bad looks like. This is when I'm gonna get in your business. This is when I will not get in your business. I'll let you do your thing. So very clear, metrics is the first point. What good looks like in each of those metrics. So I'll give you the basics for sales. I need customer acquisition cost. I need close rate, because that's going to be number of leads coming in. Sorry. Yeah, customer acquisition cost. Like, how much it cost me to get someone in and what percentage. How efficient am I at getting new customers? Because if I get a whole bunch of leads, but I have a horrible close rate, like, you're like, oh, well, we're getting $10 per lead, but if I'm only closing 1 out of 10, that's my constraint. Not more leads. Like, oh, you know, pour more money on marketing. It's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, let's look at sales process, not marketing and getting more leads. So I'm looking at customer acquisition costs and close rate for sales, for operations. I'm looking at efficiency score and then like honestly there's have a whole bunch of in the book like of metrics but the ones that are most important to me is efficiency score and probably most important to Michael. I just want efficiency core. That's it. Because if my efficiency score is high, my team is making a bunch of money on PvP and if they're making a bunch of money in PvP, the culture takes care of itself and quality goes up. Because now there's real money on the line for yellow slips. No, efficiency score is really all I care about. You could also think about like capacity for an operations manager in terms like are they doing the schedule correctly, are you near capacity or an 80% etc. For admin, like you said, there's a whole box of them. I have a whole bunch of them in here. Things like answer time, how long it takes to answer the phone, what percentage of calls are missed. The bigger thing in my opinion is estimate lead time. So inside of homeworks copilot at the top there make them actually put in when the estimate was requested correctly according to like when it came in from the, from the website or they called. If you're doing over the phone estimates, that's now which shrinks your lead time massively. Instant quotes also immediate. You're getting the price immediately from when you ask for the estimate. So that makes your estimate lead time go or sorry your lead response time way down. But I'd be trapped. Something like that would be tracked. Especially if you're doing any sort of project work or in person or drive by estimates. I would be trying to shrink that time and I'd probably monitor that with the, with the admin team. I give a list of like 10 to 15 metrics for all three inside the book and then when you need to be focused on them at certain times. So for full time gm, you are handling sales still. And usually the biggest thing that you have to manage is operations because the thing you just recently let go of it, you delegated it. So once you've delegated operations and you move into sales, you are still, you know, in the business as the operator and the owner doing sales. You will create systems down the road as you get to 1.5 at 900,000. What you need, what I would recommend doing is making sure there's really good systems for your operations person to be successful so you can actually focus on sales and not just be the spare tire of your operations manager. That's where like efficiency scores are really important. Making sure like you have a really good red tagging system for your equipment. We go over all this, like broken equipment, how to do scheduling, how to make sure your budget hour capacity is on target, how to train crews, how, how to have an onboarding process, how to training checklist. These are the type of things like you want the nailed so that they can really do their job well. And almost always that aligns efficiency score. Like the end output is what I'm always trying to incentivize or monitor because, because if something is broke with efficiency score, I can usually track backwards and find pretty quickly what will happen wrong. So if my efficiency score is 50%, I know immediately people are not getting enough budget hours done. First thing I'm looking at is are we misquoting jobs? So if efficiency score is low, I'm going to. Are we misquoting jobs? You're doing the estimates. You would know and I'm going to guess you're not misquoting it. Assuming your estimates are accurate, we can cross that off the list. Okay, estimates are accurate. I'm putting the correct amount of budget hours and they're still at 50% efficiency score. Okay, we know 50% efficient score is not good because we talk about what is good in the book and we'll talk about more later today. And so then the next thing I'm going to be like, okay, well the estimates are accurate, but our efficiency score is low. Are people slacking off and like, oh, well, no, we have pay for performance. Well, is anyone above base Pay? Not at 50%. Probably not. So no one's actually incentivized by P4P. That's why people do P for P and they're like, oh, no, it didn't change behavior. Like, no, everyone's efficiency at 30 to 50%. Of course they're not. They, they think you're a scam by doing P4P because they've never seen a dollar of bonus on P4P. And then. Okay, well, no, we, you know, we, you know, of course no one's any base pay. Now what? Okay, efficiency score. What's your service area? Are you driving 30 to 40 minutes for your first job? Okay, how long is it taking for your team meetings every morning? Are those stand up? Are they sit down. Because all that wasted time is going to bring down your efficiency score. So that's what a great operations person starts doing is tweaking all the little knobs. Okay, we're not going to have a daily stand up. We're going to three times a week. Okay, it's going to stand up. Not a sit down because I know that just standing up everyone half the time that the meeting takes and no one's getting paid for that. It's not labor. Revenue is not being produced during that, that meeting. So an operations manager starts to fanatically think about efficiency, how we park the trucks, how we do the blades, how we do the equipment, how we do repairs, how we do maintenance on the equipment. All the, all that things they start to dial in because they start seeing affects the efficiency score. So that was a long, long answer to a very short question. But yeah, sales, operations, admin, you need metrics for all of them. Hopefully that gives you a starting point in the book. I talk about the ones to focus on in your current stage. Jacob operations is the KPIs you're going to nail and it's going to usually trickle down to your efficiency score. Budget hours divided by clock hours. And then you can work backwards with things like number of yellow slips, operations. I gotta make sure the work has been done to a high quality. And then efficiency is the other side. So efficiency and quality, that would be like the first thing I'd be thinking about. And then you have more trickle downs like breakdowns, number of equipment breakdowns, how many people are above base pay on P4P. Those are things I'm starting to go down on. But like it all usually bundles up to efficiency score. And that's why I got a GM level. It all bundles down to profitability. That's why I'm going to give them a piece of that action. Hey one real quick. Given the fact that we are just headed now into 2026, this is really the perfect time to switch your CRM software as if you're considering joining Copilot soon to be homeworks. I highly recommend joining now at the beginning of the year that we have all of your previous books in your old CRM and then everything new in 2026 is with inside of Copilot. So we will help you do all of your onboarding, moving your customers across into the new system. And we can even move stripe tokens from your existing customers and their credit cards inside of Copilot. So go check it out. Go to copilotcrm.com and we'll see you there. Number three on the docket.

Hi Mike, my name is Daniel. My company is Ramos Lawn Care and this season we did about 1.1 million in revenue. Next season my goal is to do about 2 million. We have about 10 to 12 employees working full time My question for you is in your experience, what's the main bottleneck that holds most lawn care companies back from scaling past 1 million to 2 million and how do I eliminate that so I can hit my goal for next season?

The skill of managing managers is usually the biggest constraint because if you've gotten to a million it means you're very good at selling and managing technicians. The difference between a million and 2 and 3 million is you now need mid level management or managers of some sort either through distributed like multiple locations GMs or mid level managers, sales, operations, admin. And so your ability to manage those people and not micromanage them and them feel like they actually are accountable for their job and you have clear metrics and you have systems in place for them to see and you have a great compensation plan. Like a lot of this we cover in the book by the way. If they have those things, that's the determining factor. So definitely I would be looking at the full time GM and the GM plus chapters of the book and it goes over a lot of these leadership aspects. But leadership is a skill. It can be taught, it can be learned and, and you will set, you will likely fail in this area. It is uncommon to have natural characteristics of leadership that you just breeze through 1 million to 3 million because you have to change your leadership style. Managing technicians where they like, hey, just I want to show up, get my job notes, my video, get my truck for the day and head out. That's very different than managing someone who is responsible for scheduling, training, hiring, firing, team culture, one on ones equipment maintenance complaints like that's very different skill managing that person and keeping them and retaining them and keeping them motivated to keep winning. So that would be my $0.02 number four on the docket.

Hey Mike, Matt here with Augusta Delta and Whiterock. And my question is primarily about Augusta Delta. So we're going to do about 1.5 million this year and likely to hit 1.82 million next year pretty much in profit mode. We're not adding trucks or employee count. We're just going to grow into our capacities and raise prices heading into next year. So my question is as far as our org org structure org chart we've got kind of Andrew as the GM and he's kind of like a sales manager in charge of that division. But we were thinking of having a couple different departments within ops. One of them being lawn care and fertilization, one of them being small projects, softscapes, no multi day stuff and then another one being our strata and HOA and kind of having a crew leader at each of those levels, would it make sense for those guys in each of those departments to do the sales for their division? Or do you think it would be better to have a separate sales manager? You know, whether it's Andrew or we promote one of those guys to that role, would that make more sense than that person will be doing sales for all of the great work that we do? Or does it make sense to have kind of like a mini working GM or department leader? You know, where the strata guy would do quotes for that division and the project, I would do quotes for that division and, you know, the lawn care fertilization guy would do so good quotes and estimates for that division. So just curious what you think about that. Thank you.

Oh, it makes me so proud. Augusta Nation come out strong. Great question. That's a fantastic. That's in the weeds, folks. This will not get clicks on YouTube. That's a great question. So they're, they're, they're running a GM plus model, 1.5 to 1.8 million. They're starting a second location. And up there they do a lot of what's called strata. And down in the US that we like, hoas, et cetera. And so the question is, should I have my crew leaders of these three different kind of like segments of the business do sales? In my opinion, the person to be a great crew leader, if I expect them to also do sales, very expensive and very hard to find, I would rather have a salesperson. They don't need to be as good at operations and doing the work, but they need to be able to sell. And it's a very different skill and harder to find than someone who couldn't do the work. I would take your technicians out in the field on the seven stages of success, Matt. I would channel that into, hey, you can become a gm and then you could just put a slash like. Or a crew. A crew leader in the. One of these three departments. Like, you could make that the separate kind of like, same exact track. You could make the segment. So I'm a big fan of the segmentation. If you look at the GM plus chart here for the org chart, you'll notice as you begin to grow past 1.5, you're going to need these green parts. You're going to need the assistance. You're going to need the crew leaders. You'll see down here, the crew leaders start popping up. That's when it starts to make sense to do what you're talking about. And it'd be okay to have a crew leader for your maintenance, a crew leader for your strata, et cetera, but keep them all in operations. It'd be very hard to find a salesperson for your strata, a salesperson for your chemicals, a salesperson for your maintenance. Like, it's gonna be very difficult. It is much harder and more expensive to find someone has sales and operational experience than just operations. And then go find one unicorn that's gonna be your sales manager. So if you're gonna stay in the GM plus model, which is totally fine, I think you guys have made the decision to keep this one, the big one, and then your second location is gonna start a little bit smaller and do more recurring revenue stuff. Great. Awesome. Fine. You're in the GM plus model. You'll need a sales manager. And then inside of operations, you can create crew leaders. So that would, like, make sure the team is good, they're trained up, they're onboarded correctly, they have quality standards, do quality control. Good. I would not recommend mixing sales with operations at all three of those divisions. I'd get one sales manager, and then you can benchmark their metrics, perhaps kind of segmented out by those three if you really wanted to, for the sales manager. But I would really recommend to not try to go find a bunch of salespeople that also know the operations. It's very hard to find. And I'm usually trying to find one per location. That's my general manager, and that's the person that can do the operations. They can step in, they can help everyone out. They know what's going on. They can run the whole place. But. And they're good at sales. Hard to find that person. They're typically going to be an entrepreneur, and they're going to start their own business. Fifth and final on the docket for today.

Hey, Mike, recording from the gym right now. I love your content. Stoked. Anyways, what is the name of your business? My. My business name is MLC Martin's Lawn Care. Our expected revenue this year is 1.475, a little bit shy of 1.5 million. How many employees do I have? We have around. We have seven to eight employees. Had 10 earlier in the year, but we're right around seven to eight, rocking three crews. My question for you is right now kind of in a position where I'm over leveraging myself. I'm wearing a lot of different hats, and I don't have a whole lot of high talent labor. So I'm doing a lot of that. I'm doing Managing all the operations, managing all the sales material deliveries and we do mostly landscape installs and cleanups. So one time projects. Not only am I trying to get a continuity program like Harmozi has suggested, but really what I'm trying to do is scale out either the operation side of the sales side. Curious. Which one would be easier, which one would be better for the business and which one you think is going to be the biggest constraint going forward. Really curious on your insight. Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

1.5 million. Good job, Christian. Let's go. Okay, so you said one word there that I wanted. You had over leveraged. I think you mostly meant like your spread thin, not like actually have a whole bunch of debt. Because if you actually had a whole bunch of data, I'd probably say something slightly different. But I'm going to say you're just spread thing. This is the problem. When you do big projects. Ultimately this is what happens. You hit this 1.5, you grow in a big business, but you're doing everything inside the business and it's hard to replace yourself because it's complex and custom services. So inside the book we talk about simple systems. How do you build the systems? You use the framework right here. So we have the simple systems framework. Boom, right here. You can't really see it. Hide me. There you go. Right now you're doing complex and custom work. This is what we call the treadmill junkie leads to burnout. So what I would recommend is slowly move up to the master juggler, which is where you still do complex jobs. One time big projects. But you're going to standardize everything. So I'd first move you there. That's where you're going to go. Top left hand corner, the master juggler. And to do that you're going to say these are the type of pavers, these are the type of blocks that we install and nothing else. Take standard kind of materials that you know will work for 95% of people and use those. You will not have a drop off in sales. Like everyone wants you to believe. Your bell guard is like, oh no, you don't have a thousand options. No, you don't. Okay, then as time goes on, I want you to move towards built to scale, which is the top right hand corner, which is simple and standardized, which means you still standard. But you simplify, you're going to cut some of those services out. Ideally the ones that you know every single time you touch. You're on the project all the time, anytime, anytime there's a service and you're like, yeah, I'll end up being there. Something's going to happen. Bad. Might be irrigation, it might be excavation, it might be something. For me it was like hydro seeding jobs. It was irrigation. We did. We did irrigation. I can't even believe it. Mercy goodness. We did irrigation. Excavation jobs. I usually ended up being up on. It's like I ended up just having to cut them out. So that's simplification, like just cutting those things out. But I would start with standardization because then that way you can maintain your revenue. So next year, instead of trying to like we're going to do 3 million, just like, hey, we're just going to, we're just going to focus on standardizing what we're currently doing. I happen to believe you actually make more revenue and more profit doing just the standardization. Because you're not going to actually cut any services out yet. Then you'll simplify. Once you do that, then you have simplified and standardized the business. And that's just the services we talked about. You're then also going to do the same thing for equipment. The way you answer the phone, your website, everything gets simplified and standardized. Then you have the opportunity to hand things off. Until you do that. If you start handing things off, you're going to create chaos. If you start handing off your operations, it's going to be chaos. Because no one knows how to do all the projects like you do. If you start handing off sales, no one knows how to do sales like you do. And if you're trying to determine which one do I hand off first, we always are going to move in the direction of I first delegate admin, then I delegate operations down, then I delegate sales. So right now you're at that 1.5 million size. You are exactly at the point where you're feeling the pressure based upon the book, where it's like, I gotta hire an operations manager. The reason I do that is because it's easier to find the operations manager than it is finding a sales manager. If there is someone that's going to be able to produce $2 million worth of sales for one time projects, they're going to go start their own business. Or they're extremely expensive and hard to find. It's easier to take one of your technicians that worked with you for five years or has worked in another business for 10 years and has some resemblance of training around leadership to step in, it's cheaper and easier to find them.