The Growth Playbook: An Insider Call with Multi-Location Owners

Hey everyone, it's Mike Andes. I'm the founder of Augusta Lawn Care. We have over 150 locations around the world and today is really special. I've never done this before. We're actually going to share an internal coaching call that I had with some of our multi unit owners inside of Augusta Nation.

I wasn't sure if we were going to do the third location.

If you're trying to scale the business up and you're trying to balance out, how do I grow but also how do I actually make sure that I don't go take too much debt? Should I use debt?

I said, man, I did it on $5,000 two years ago. Yeah, we could, we can do it.

This is going to be a great conversation that you'll want to listen to and I encourage you to get a part of a community like this, whether it be a Facebook group, a franchise, whether it be a conference, anywhere where you can get together with like minded individuals that are going through the same obstacles as you is super beneficial. Let's go ahead and roll the tape.

Do you.

So you don't have a lot of debt right now, right?

20,000, I think in the business, business stuff.

So we just got the matter of fact, I wasn't sure if we're going to do the third location because the, the banker, it just was taking about a month and it was kind of concerning me. So I said, hey man, just let me know what I need to do today. I'm about to buy plane tickets. He's like, well you know you're gonna get the loan. He said, he said I just have been busy. I got promoted, yada, yada. So I thought we saw we're going to put money down on the loan. And so he just took all my assets. So all the trucks are paid for and then he even took, forget what he called it but like on mowers and things like that, I think uch. Or you, whatever it's called. Yeah, uch. I think it was. He's going to give the like a, whatever values on our books for like the mowers. And he was able to, we wanted 150. And I was thinking I was going to put down 20%. And so he's like, hey man, I can't get you 150. He said, but I can get you in between 100 and 125. Can you still do it with that? And I was like, I said man, I did it on $5,000 two years ago. Yeah, we could, we could, we could do it. And I was like, what's the down payment? He said, there's no down payment. I was like, oh, excellent. That was always going to come with $30,000. And so I don't know if you know your relationship with your bank. I don't know if all, you know, banks work. Work like that, but you might not have to come out of pocket at all. And this and my. The loan, the, you know, what I sent over. I'll share it with you if you want to see if they spell the projections and then where exactly we were going to spend the money.

It had working capital, and it had like a $30,000 marketing budget and $30,000 of working capital just to get to profitability. And so I don't know if that's typical. I know it's a small bank. I went to school with the guy. I don't know if that has anything.

To do with it.

But I've never gotten a loan like this. I have to put any money down. And he just took my. My assets as collaterals. So.

Huge fan of a small bank.

That's how my banks work here too. It's a local little small bank. I work directly with the guy that owns it. Like, that's how a lot of, I think small banks kind of work. If you're a business and stuff. That's the way our line of credit works. And any loans that we've got. No, don't pay anything down.

Given that.

Yeah.

Keeps his together. Like, we should be generally always profitable in Bloomington now. And like, the goal is to get champagne the same way. And so my thought is to continue just open locations with debt rather than put my money up front. Is that. Is that what everybody's plan is? Pretty much.

I'm very risky, so I don't mind risk. And I'd much rather use the bank's cash for sure.

But that's just for me, regardless of interest. Or do you pay attention to what the interest is? Because I know I could go get 100%. 10.

Yeah, yeah. I'm like 10 or lower. I don't really think twice. About under five, for sure. I don't really think about at all. Like, I get closer to 10, I'll ponder a little bit over 10. I'm like, probably not. It's kind of my rules.

And then I just wanted to ask you, is anybody chasing after Peoria? Right? Like, do you know of anybody interested in Peoria?

There were some guys. Yeah. Two year. There were some guys that were interested, but the Peoria location's broken to three now, so East Peoria, Peoria and Pekin. And so I had my call with Lee the other day and basically put my name on East Peoria. And I just said, you know, if somebody calls, just let me know and I'll write you a check so we can buy it. Yeah, but that, I mean, that's even. That's 15 minutes closer than Peoria is. It's on the side of the river, so it's. It's 30 minutes from my house. It's way closer than Champaign, but it's not as good a market either.

Okay. That's how it was. Very honestly, I'm just now getting into profit and I'd like. I would love for another year of just that. There was two things. One, Chris was really showing promise and I wanted to grow because of him. And then the other two, the other reason was I had somebody, two people call. One person didn't have the funds, so that didn't count. But the second person just sold his business and had a lot of money to grow this fast and he was going to pull the trigger. So I told Lee. I was like, well, I'll.

I'll buy it.

So that was my reasoning. So I was thinking, like, you know, in your position dust, and unless you like, if, if you had to go one more year of stabilizing this, what does, what, what does that do for you and your wife? Cash reserves. Her. Her sense of stability. Your GM sense of stability in their roles versus starting Peoria.

What do you.

What do you think?

I think my GM and champagne that we just hired is gunning for 3F program, like, hard. That's the only reason why he's like, gunning for the general manager spot. And to begin with, like, he's like, I'll move down there, whatever you need. Like, just tell me what to do. You know, I'll. He's already taken stuff on himself to get promoted that spot. And he's my cousin, too, so he's like, very upfront, like, just tell me what I need to do so I don't have to be a high school teacher like my dad. Like, he's anything to get out of the situation that he's in, basically. And so I know.

He'S wanting, like two or three years of GM checks is what he's saying, to be able to put money in the bank. He's made some mistakes while he's up here. Totaled like two or three cars, so he's dug himself a little bit of a hole. Two of them weren't his fault. So that helps a little bit. But yeah, he's just like, I just, as soon as I get the money to go start a location in Kansas City, I'm moving back down there. So I think I have, you know, a solid two years of getting champagne to stability. And honestly, like, we still, Kate still has a great job, so it's not like we need the money from the locations. We're still living off of just her income and all of our draws are just going into the account and just sitting there, basically.

So like the stability aspect of the locations is just, you know, keep Bloomington rolling and get champagne ramped up enough to where it can move into profit mode.

Gotcha.

Okay.

Well, cool.

I mean, yeah, I, I think as far as, you know, if you're, you're stable, I mean, I know your long term plan is to grow just like all, all of ours. So as long as you're stable and you're good with it, I mean, seems like a good idea.

I think my risk tolerance would go up to. If both of your locations are in profit mode. Like as soon as you cross that threshold, I think it becomes almost obvious for her. Even just from a tax savings perspective. Yeah, like you're like, hey, look, we're making 140, $150,000 in on our taxes. We're going to give 30 grand of that away or we're going to start another location. Like, what do you want to do? Then it starts to make a lot of sense, like when, when, when you have taxes. But see if you leverage yourself too, the same thing will happen because you don't have to pay taxes on obviously the cash you get from your, from the debt. So it kind of re. Like getting debt is kind of. You have to get on the treadmill of growth because now you're going to inflate your, your profits to the government and you're like, oh snap, now I got to spend more of it from a tax savings perspective. So.

Yeah. Cool.

Thanks guys.

You know that you guys have had your tax calls or have your tax calls?

Mine's tomorrow.

I just had mine. He's gonna save me some money too. Thank God for Brad.

I think she's gonna be good. So we'll see.

And thanks for doing this, Mike. This is, this has been awesome.

Yep. I got, I got, I got two things real quick and I'm about to get on the roof, so I'll kind of just spot them out real quick. One, how do we prioritize the only framework that we've been trying out recently is like, for me and for Thomas as, like, I didn't even have the regional manager position dialed in before we put him in there. So he had two GMs. He's down two GMS in the last two weeks. Like, it's, it's getting real for him right now.

One because of personal issues and then one because of performance. When we saw coming, we were planning for that. How does he prioritize? Because he also now.

Is having team member issues because of the GMs in those locations. And so, like, there's work not getting done. Like, he feels like he's all over the place.

Our current priority prioritizing strategy is like, make a list of everything you could do. Label them. This is. This like, came from Alex. Label them, find the one that's number one. Cross everything else out because number one might solve, solve the rest. But like, you know, I also don't want to like create massive holes, especially like going into winter and then trying to prepare for spring rush. The second part was kind of back to the, the debt. I was just curious, like, how do you calculate debt? And like, when does it make cash flow or profit? Profitability, like worse with having interest, like, when is it. How do you figure out when it's not worth it? And then do you think there would be a balance in or a benefit in getting the locations to distributable cash if they're not there? Even if it means they have some interest? Because a GM could see like, oh, I'm at that level. Because like some, like our locations, some of them are like so far off that it just like, it's like fugazi. It's not like, like P4P. If the guys try hard, they see it like in two weeks on their paycheck. This is like, we're like, hey, a couple months from now, a year from now. It doesn't like, I don't know if it equates.

Yeah.

So I would say like, first off on the prioritization thing, the thing I'm always looking for is what domino can I hit and hit five of the things that's listed, right? So, um, obviously it can be like, hey, yes, there's a thousand things we could be doing, but one what, one of these. If I do, I can knock out 15 of the others. And so, for example, the one thing I look at a lot of times when there is a massive catastrophe happening from an HR perspective, like GM is being removed. A mutiny in the team. You have to fire a bunch of people as I'm immediately looking at training because if I can anchor the team, then like there's a trickle down of better P4P, which increases morales yellow slips, less customer churn, higher customer satisfaction, et cetera. So like there's so much trickle down from just getting them trained correctly. But like, that's generally how I'm thinking about. Prioritization is like I am going to, yes, list all the things I need to be doing. But then it's like if I did this one thing, what take care of all these others. And so for example, like with Logan, it's like there's probably a thousand things that could be done. But like we know if we can get these two locations into above 500,000, that a lot of things start to take care of themselves. And so that's where it's like, okay, then sales is the bottleneck. So it's like realizing what the bottleneck is. And you and I have talked about Connor, like this year is going to be how do you find general managers and train them up? Like that is the bottleneck for, you know, managing as many locations as you have. And that's the skill that will be required. And so I would say, like, that's still the quote bottleneck. But then it's like, well, what happens when everything just is like we don't. The GMs literally leave now what I'm usually going back to, how do I get the team on the same page? Because if they can just all be more accountable and less, more autonomous, I will have to manage less and it's a way less burden of my time.

Go ahead.

Oh, I was saying. Right. Yeah, yeah.

And, and then from, from the debt perspective, like the most aggressive form. What's up, dude? The most aggressive form of like using debt is actually some people will say if you can just cash flow. And the actually the most aggressive form is if you can just cover interest payments. Because technically when you're paying down principal, you're essentially just putting money from this pocket into the other because you got the money and now you're giving it back to the bank as principal. It's, it's, there's actually no transaction. That's why it doesn't show up on the P L. So like the most aggressive form of expansion is if I can cover my interest payments with the profits that come from the business. I should keep growing because in theory, eventually the principal will go to zero and eventually I will be extremely profitable. It's just how long are you willing to hold your breath? Because if you're if you have a five year loan, what that means is if I can just cover the interest expense with the profit, that means once the five years is done, the principal payment is now going in my pocket instead of back to the bank. So like that's the most aggressive form. Then the next like the, the, the second degree of, of of risk is going to be can I cash flow from day one, which is with my interest expense and my principal pay down, am I able to cash flow? And then it's a matter of like that's why I always say you got to get above 20,000 at every location because if you, if you take the amount of debt required to grow the location to that size, typically you're looking around 1,500 to 2,000 DOL monthly payment. And I've got to cover that in addition to a general manager's wages. And so if I'm taking straight debt, that's why you, you almost have to get above 20,000 as fast as possible.

If you're taking debt.

Correct? Yeah, because, because you got a gm, let's just call them six grand a month and then you got.

Fixed expenses and then you got the cost of the debt itself. If you're not above 20, you will lose money. It's just like you will lose money. And so if you can cash flow from day one as fast as possible, that's why like always giving that ramp for like the three months, get people above 20 as fast as possible is.

Is, is the goal.

But in terms of like paying it back, et cetera, it's like what degree of risk are you willing to take? Because there are people that will literally look at the interest rate and say okay.

10% of a million dollars. If I just make $100,000 in profit, I'm happy because I'm just literally giving the money back to the com. Back to the bank at the same dollar amount. If I can just cover the interest expense, I'm happy. That's extremely risky because you always have the pro. The issue of like a depreciating asset that doesn't last the term of the loan. So for example, a truck that gets crashed at two years, all of a sudden now you have a principal pay down. Like you have a, a massive deficit on that loan.

What do you think it does like to the mental though for the gm, like, like if, if, if I accept the risk, like do you think like it being able like for them to be able to see it like if we're setting the, the bar at 50k and I put the bank at 50k. Like yes, they have to. Yes, there's the principal payback, right? Like the principal and interest. But them being able to see that, do you think like that would be a shift for a lot of people? Because like I'm, I'm just finding it really hard. Like unless somebody is somebody that wants to go into the 3F program and like they learn about that soon and like they're really interested in it. Like Thomas for example, they, they don't have like the long term thinking to like say you know, wait a year to start actually getting the upside of 20% profit sharing, right?

That's when I just really incentivize the growth because like I gotta get above 20. So like I would put massive bonuses around like 10, 15 and 20, get them above it as fast as possible. And so like if a location is not above 20, I know I'm losing money. I would rather lose the money to their, to their bonus. Then I'm just burning cash because the location is below a certain revenue threshold. And so you know we, we now have it where it's like even once they're in profit mode they make a, they make a bonus per month based upon their revenue. So it's like 20,000, 40,000, 60,000. And so I would, I would incentivize probably 10, 15 and 20 for your location.

We found those ranges to be too wide like because we, we kept doing that in like, like every month, like right in the middle of the month and constantly I would remind them but like in our one on one that was in the middle of the month. I would like sit down with the GMs and I'm like hey, like currently projecting like with what we have on the schedule, you're $2,000 off from your next bonus. And just like, I don't know.

One thing we're trying with my new GM down in Champaign is making those closer. And so we're doing five thousand dollar increments. And so it's not like.

Yeah, the location's like 25, 000 I think average a month like towards the end of the summer. And it's like 30,000 is 250 bucks, 40,000 is like 500 bucks. And it's every month. It's based on revenue for the first year with the end goal of like hey, your salary is going to increase by like I think it's five or ten grand. I don't remember what it is. Given the fact that the average is like 45 by the end of the year, and then we'll go to distributable cash because the location will go into profit mode. So it's like highly revenue incentivized in year one and then year two. It's like, given that we hit the revenue goal average by the end of the year, we're going to switch to distributable cash.

Yeah, it's tough. It's tough though, kind of to your point, like, if someone's not money motivated to make an extra two grand in that month in order to unlock $500 for themselves, like, that's tough. Like that. That's a couple projects to be able to knock out.

So it's the money motivation part is hard. I think you could also, to Dustin's point, instead of even doing like locking it, you could just do a percentage. So for example, 1% of 20 grand is what, 200 bucks? So is that right? Yeah, $200. And so you could say, okay, well, we're gonna get 5%. Well, then you get 5% of like everything up until a certain threshold of revenue, you could do that. And then every dollar they're making, essentially they're getting a cut of it. I would probably say something like, anything above 20,000amonth, you get a percentage of. So, like, they gotta get above that. And then other thing above that is higher. So you basically like, hey, I know I might break even on a location, usually around 20 grand. Um, and so anything above that, I'll give you 6%, 7%, 8%, whatever you want to set as a threshold. Um, but I wouldn't be giving them a percentage of just straight revenue until over 20 grand just because I know I'm not making any money.

It's like a new income tax.

Yeah, exactly.

Graduated G. Just curious to, like, I know me and Logan are basically both stepping into sales rules. Like, the GM doesn't really have.

Any say in, like, what's sold. They just have, like, what's scheduled. So that's my only hesitation of like, hey, revenue's on you. Because, like, we have. You have to put like, I help them schedule each day. Like, each day there's 100 door hangers in that. So, like, there is some sales. And then if they don't have any work or like training or initial MO's, they're just hang door hangers basically all day.

Yeah, there's so much sales. Yeah, yeah. Like, and you're governing the marketing spend too, Right? So it isn't super fair to them in one regard. But also.

I think I've seen GMs that can literally take a location with the same marketing spend and they double the revenue because they're super great at doing the door hangers, upselling customers, doing follow up calls, talking to customers after a project and selling another project. So like they're, they can do it. And if you just govern like, hey, this is how much we're spending on marketing, I'm going to take care of the sales. Like I would just make sure there's like clear definitions of like what the spend is going to be, what they can expect. And if they start feeling like oh, you're not closing the jobs, then you say great, you do the follow up calls, dude.

Still recommend distributable cash as the incentive for both.

The model that we're looking at, it.

Doesn'T really matter until they're in profit mode. Like until they're in profit mode, I would just be focusing on revenue.

And so whether you did like anything over 20, they get a percentage of, or if you'd say 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 grand, you start graduating a little bit more than the twenty thousand dollar segments. Either way, I'd just be focusing on revenue because I know if I can get them above a certain level, I can actually make it break even. And I would just heavily incentivize it. Even if you did like a jackpot. If I was starting a location from zero, I'd put a jackpot on like two straight months of revenue over a certain threshold because I know if I can get above that, you can, you can burn five, ten grand a month on a location that's not performing well. So why not spend 10 grand on making a big jackpot? If they cross 25 grand for two months in a row like that, I.

Like them for Columbus.

I have a question. So if we open new locations and we're going the extreme, like Simple Services, they're not even going to have dump trailers. Like if the cleanup can't be done with a ramp rack and trash cans, we're out. And so we're thinking we won't really have a lot of sales on the GM's responsibility list because it's all going to be OTP and instant quote essentially. And at that point we were thinking about just having one salesperson in the office. Like we hire them dedicated to sales and they would do the follow up calls for all the OTP and instant quotes that come through the office. So then our GMs don't do them at all. Like you have one guy, he has his Script. He's good at it. He calls every territory we have. Like they come in, he does them. How much do you think that holds true? Like where we could just take sales responsibility off the GM's plate essentially besides like hey, you could hand out door hangers. But we're going to set your budget, do the EDDMs. Our marketing guys are going to do your campaign. Like we're going to use the math and know when to spend and when not to spend. And your job's just to manage it.

I, I'm a big fan of it. Like we were going to do this this year in my North Carolina locations. That was the plan. And the reason is because everyone's like, well that's not really fair to the gm. This is my thought originally. It's like, well, it's not fair the gm because they, they don't control their own destiny. But you already give them a certain amount of equipment, you already tell them where they're going to shop, you know, park their trucks every night. There's already so many benchmarks that you're setting for them. And if you just said hey, this, our pricing is across the board. No one's getting favorites. We all get the same leads. We spend the same amount in every single location. If the pricing is the same, that's governed by corporate and we're shooting for these targets in terms of close ratio and you got to take what you get and then work with it. I'm a fan of it. Yeah.

Well, my logic was, is if I took the volume of say the leads from five or six locations, I have enough that I can make some kind of commission package or close rate base package where you could get a really stellar sales guy that wants to make 60, 70, 80 a year that'll dedicate the reps on the phone or he will be better or she will be better than any general manager would on their own. Because he's doing 50, 60, 70 all the time, 15 an hour. He's just doing them same thing.

I'd give him a company phone on imessage and like literally set automations to every single incoming lead as well as an estimate sent. And when a customer accepts an estimate and they're he's immediately supposed to be sending them a video.

Like yeah. And then I figured he would, he would learn the loom and all the stuff that I don't feel like doing. And as we get enough locations where he can't handle the leads like he writes the book for the next guy. This is how you do it like, this is the procedure. This is. And he just runs the sales department from there. You just put people, people in the. In this call center we already have.

If you can take sales off of a GM's plate, like, the likelihood of them succeeding is so much higher because it's a skill that is the hardest thing to teach.

Yeah, I agree there. With Augusta doing 1.4, 13, 15 team members this year.

It's. I've got skin in the game. I don't know many guys without skin in the game that will deal with the stress and the. The things that come along with that. And with spending more time with the guys doing lights, I really feel like the GM should focus on doing work and spending time with the team because they see our team, sees me in the office, and some of them quite literally want to be a GM that doesn't have to produce anymore. And now I'm having to tell them, well, buddy, if you want to make more money, you're going to have to produce because this business model is changing and we're breaking up this big location.

Yeah. I also think you could find, like, more of the type of person you want to be a working GM if you take sales off the plate.

Yeah, I'd rather.

It's a different. It's. It's hard to find someone that has both those qualities at a high tier.

I'd rather deal with four to six guys instead of 15. With the kind of subculture that comes along with that many of the team members.

The other question I had is how much money do you think you throw at a new location? Like, say you want to get it to 20,000 fast, but you can also only spend your way into so much Penn penetration.

Like, a lot of.

It's just time there. Like, people need to die, houses need to sell. Like, you can do so much. How much would you go, like, cost per lead before you're like, enough's enough. Even in a new location, like, say, next year, we cut our marketing spend in the three we have.

They're in profit mode already.

I could throw as much money as I want at it. Right. We're probably spitting off 20, 25,000amonth in profit, give or take. And. But I also know, like, you don't want to get to $500 per acquisition. She's never going to balance out. Yeah.

Like, this funny thing I always find is when. When people go to buy, like a location out, they're happy to pay 3, $400 per customer. But then when it comes, like, getting new customers we all like freak out at 60, 70, 80 bucks. Like I'm happy to pay up to 200 because I know that we on average will get 2,000 per per year. And if you can increase the lifetime value of the customer high enough, you can spend more. So that's why it's so important about winter services and Christmas lights is because if you can take a mowing, customer usually get a thousand dollars for get them into say 1500 even because they accept winter services immediately, I can spend 50% more on the customer acquisition cost and make sense of it. And so as long as someone can upsell people enough and get the annual value high enough, I think $200.

Anything below that I can usually make sense.

Of what would be helpful as a graph or one axis is time in business and one axis is revenue per month and how much you'd spend depending on those two factors.

The challenging part too is it really hinges on your, your churn. Because if someone comes in, they're like, well I'm going to spend a bunch of money. But then they have a bad general manager. They have massive amount of employee churn, lots of yellow subs and callbacks and their churn is 50 a year. Well now all of a sudden their, the lifetime value that customer is so low is maybe only two grand for the life of the customer. Now it's a little harder to spend 10% of revenue on a customer lifetime on the acquisition. So it's very dependent on churn because there's some people in Augusta, their churn is like 15, which is essentially the simply the amount of people that move seven, eight, seven, eight years.

That's what I was going to say earlier. We were talking about GM and sales. I found especially in Rockport and Corpus that have been around years, like the lot of trucks. The best way my GM sell month to month revenue is attrition. Anything to help attrition. Because we're already getting the volume we're going to get. It's just keeping the ones and we track everyone, right. And we lose very little because of quality. But every one of them, those sting the most. You're like, that's a problem.

Yeah. And the GM can, can really make an impact there. So it's like, well, they don't come, you know, they don't get incoming sales for example, if you're handling them for them. But they can, they're massive impact of whether attrition, you know.

So also one thing we don't really know is we're moving Joe to be regional Manager, but I honestly don't even know what his job description is going to be. I'm like, put out fires when they happen. That's number one. And then I was like, you could help do a coaching call with them, do their coaching cards, have a weekly something or another that I don't do currently. But like I think some framework around what a 40 hour, 40 budgeted hour regional manager's job should look like. I have no idea. We're just going to wing it. That's what Connor's going to do.

The regional manager is like, we're experiencing it right now is like it's a safety net. Like there's probably weeks where Thomas is way overpaid. Like Thomas has paid far more than me. However, he's a safety net for me to go continue on and do other things and do the acquisition that we're doing in south park and not have to worry about the northern locations. It's like, because when you need them, you want them and.

There might be weeks, you overpay them. But then there's also going to be weeks like this where he's gonna, Thomas is gonna buckle up and he's, he's got a couple 60, 70 hour weeks ahead of him to get, get things back in shape going into the winter.

Yeah, I mean I sat down with Joe and we kind of talked about it because he wanted to know what I expected and I told him, I said, I just expect you to take all the problems I have now and if you call me, it better be a real problem. Yeah, that's why I'll pay you X amount of money to fill that role.

Yeah, that's why I, I had mentioned the other day, like, I think between two and five locations is a little bit of a wilderness because you got to get that regional user on that third location. And that's why we said we're selling the executives at six because like we want them to start at the point where the regional is. It's a full time job because if you have six general managers and one quits every year or every six months, you have to have a regional step in, cover for them, find another one, train someone up and like that's their job every six months. And so it makes more sense at.

That size for us. It was interesting. That's why we chose to do two because I was like, he'll have more problems because we're not opening them all at once. So three, if his five gms have been in place for years, like they don't give me problems. They don't even call me. They're not going to call him. You know, there's an auto accident or something. So I was like, well, he needs something to do.

Yeah, like the big, the big thing is, is a matter of. It's a bumper between you and the GMs. Like, you just. You do not want to have to. Once you're past three of them, you don't want to be managing every one of their problems. You want a regional in between you. It's just so much easier and it's worth the money. If they're all. You have at least three in profit mode, it's worth the hit in profit.

For me, I think it's nice because you have someone to hold accountable for the stuff you should do that you don't like. This year I was slow on Christmas light marketing Mater and I told Isaac, I said, next year we won't because that's going to be Joe's problem and I'll make sure it gets done.