Mindset May Women's Basketball Coach J. McCallie

Welcome to the Mike Hartman Show. Mike is a performance coach and former Stanley cup champion with the New York Rangers. Topics on this show are focused around stories, mindset and champions. Mike will also go into details about helping you with your pain points and struggles and finding motivational solutions on how to have the mindset of a champion. Now, here's your host, Mike Hartman.

Welcome to another episode. Today is mindset May. We're going to continue going on about your mindset, where you should be now, where do you want to be? And I have a very special guest with me. Her name is Joanne McCauley. She's an American college basketball coach, coached over 30 plus years. I hope I have that correct. She has a fantastic background. I know she coached in my home state at Michigan State. Most recent, Duke University Women's basketball has an amazing story to tell. Joanne, it's so great to have you here today.

Thank you, Mike. It's great to be with you.

You know, we learn a lot about coaching and I know it's tough to be a coach. I had an offer to coach in minor league hockey and I was a player coach. And then I walked away because I know that you're hired to be fired as a coach, but that's what they told. So I said, you know what? I'd rather raise my kids. I love the game of hock. Tell me your story. What made you get involved with coaching because you have such a fantastic background?

I'm a coach by accident. And what that means is I was studying to get my. I was working in outside sales in Chicago. And then I studied at Auburn to get my mba and I got it paid for because I was a graduate assistant. And then in my second year of being a graduate assistant, I just fell in love with coaching and developing the players and decided I wanted to be a head coach. And so at 26, I was hired as the head coach at the University of Maine.

Wow. And we talked for a minute because I almost followed in your footsteps a little bit because you were at Michigan State. I almost went to Michigan State. We talked about Sean Walsh, who was the hockey coach that ended up in Maine. And you ended up knowing Sean a little bit as well on the hockey side.

Oh, yes. And Sean was fantastic. And, you know, my experience at Michigan State was phenomenal. It was seven years of just, just building a program and going to the national championship. And I was aware of Sean, of course, when he was at Maine and he had done great things and I really wanted to follow in those footsteps and do what he had Done. Which we were able to accomplish with the program there.

So tell some of our listeners, because we do have a lot of listeners. There's aau, there's different families all over the country. A lot of families, their kids play high school sports. What was it like coaching for Duke? Because I know that was one of the school that my daughter wanted to go to. We're living in Charlotte. You're not living too far away. Share, like the Duke experience with us.

Well, it's obviously a wonderful school and there's high emphasis on academics and high emphasis on being an elite student athlete. And there's just very high expectations. Championships are won, national championships are won. And it was a great experience for me because I kind of had rebuild situations at the University of Maine in Michigan State. And Duke had been to Final Fours and had done some really great things. And so going to Duke was the ultimate challenge of trying to take that next step to the national championship. And we went to a bunch of elite eights and won lots of championships, but we didn't make that final goal. And I just know that the student athletes there are just very motivated and wanting to have excellence on both sides, academically and athletically. So it's a nice challenge. And it's a smaller pool in which to recruit from because not everybody can get into Duke.

Well, I could tell you a funny story because we talk a lot about stories and I had a really good friend of mine played for Michigan, then played for. He played basketball player, then played for the Knicks. His name is Tim McCormick. So we used to spend a lot of our summers together because he, Jeff cone, who's another football player from Michigan, we were the boring type. I never went to bars. I didn't even drink. I was one of those athletes that trained like a maniac and so did they. We would talk sports and we didn't go out. So I just started following basketball back then. And then I met my. My wife at that time. We were married 13 years. And she said, oh, I have a kid I went to high school with. He's going to be in the NBA. And I said, there isn't any kid in Buffalo that's going to go to the NBA. Oh, he's my great friend. Christian Laettner is his name. So she was right. You know, I know how people say, I'm really from Buffalo. Go to the. And there's a pretty big player. Did you ever get to meet Christian at all?

I think in passing one time. But obviously his legacy is larger than life. And that shot Goes down in infamy. But there's just a lot of great student athletes and great basketball players on the women's and men's side. For sure.

That's great. So I've seen some every now and then, especially when I interview somebody, and I think I know about 95% of the athletes that I know, but I heard so many great things about. I know we're going to talk about your book at the very end, but I watched you because I saw a couple YouTube videos, and I boy, she's like the nicest lady. But when you coaching, you look pretty intense. On a couple of the YouTube videos that I saw.

Oh, yes. Very passionate coach. I believe in playing very hard and hustle and, you know, really putting yourself out there. I think I'm most passionate and demanding the effort piece and really getting after it. At the elite athlete level. You don't want to have to coach effort too much, but you definitely want to coach. Playing together, playing off each other, connecting as a team. And, you know, I'm Italian and British, which is an interesting combination. And I just really enjoy coaching. I enjoy it very much. I may coach again, I don't know. But I think you have to be passionate and it has to show. And your players reflect that as well.

It's true, doesn't it? It starts at the top, doesn't it? Especially with. It doesn't matter if it's business or sports. The leadership starts at the top. And it has to start with, like yourself, especially being a Division 1 coach. Did that put a lot of pressure on you, always feeling that you had to be on your game?

Well, you definitely have to be on your game, and I think that pressure is a privilege. I do believe that I knew exactly what I was signing on for in going to Duke. Obviously, a lot of scrutiny in the triangle with all three schools here, but you have to love that, and it helps you get better. And I think your student athletes need to see you wanting to get better, both physically, mentally, as a coach, on and off the court, and I relish that. I like you didn't go out much or don't go out much. I'm kind of boring. And I love the idea of getting better and learning new things, and that definitely has to translate to your student athletes.

Yeah, and we talk about student athletes. A lot of people, like, my kids went to a school in Charlotte called Providence Day. It was a private school, and they took their sports seriously. Every kid had to play a sport. My kids weren't very good in sports. It Wasn't their thing. But a lot of the parents would say, oh, I want my son, I want my daughter to get a scholarship. And I would say, it's not that easy to get a scholarship. I mean, you could tell us how hard it really is. People don't really understand. It's not that easy just to. Okay, we're going to get a Division 1 scholarship. That's not easy.

Oh, no. And everyone has those big dreams. I know, but Division one, two, three, naia, there's a level for everyone. And it's important to understand that, you know, you just, you have to qualify by being tall. Like point guards for women's basketball right now are running 5, 11, 6 foot. You know, it's a different game at the Division 1 level. And you just have to be confident in what your passions are and then go to the level where you best can contribute.

And then when you have players that want to be at that high level, it's a commitment. Like, I would talk to parents sometimes and sure, listen, they have to want it. It can't come from the parent at all.

Yes, the helicopter parent. Who wants it more than the student athlete. Oh, that's a big problem. And that's out there more and more because parents are seeing scholarships and opportunity. But the bottom line, it's got to come from the student athlete. And if you're not passion driven, you definitely can't make it to the highest level.

Yeah. And it's, it's also. And it's okay because, you know, we love our kids. Like, I, I was a parent that sat on the sidelines and I watched my son not play much on lacrosse and my daughter played soccer at school. And you want them to do well, but. But the parents have to stay out of it completely. Do you agree with that?

Yeah, I do. I think that, you know, I drove my parents to basketball. They had never been a part of the sport. And I think that as parents, we're to guide our kids, to guide them and allow them to choose what exactly they love and then to guide them in every way we can with those passions and with those choices. And I think we can sometimes try to live through our kids or think we may know better or think there's an opportunity that may be better for them. And the reality is they've got to be the ones. They've got to be in charge. And that's where you'll get the best opportunity and the best relationship with your child.

And that's true. And the only thing I would say is if they really want it. Like you said, it's up to them. We knew in our sport in hockey, there was over 2 million hockey players, amateur players, just in the United States, and we have Canada, Russia, Finland, Sweden. And I would say that the thing that you have to realize, like, you have to ask your son or your daughter, like, what's going to make you different than everybody else? Are you going to go out at night? Like I always say, studies are the most important thing. And then you work on your skills, but it has to be hard work or you don't really have a chance.

Without question, you've got to commit, you've got to recognize that you do sacrifice certain things socially in particular, you have to carry yourself in a certain way, especially with social media. You have to present that you are a person who leads, not follows. And your work ethic has to back up everything you do. So it's definitely a challenge. And you separate yourself. And leadership can also be very lonely. So as a young person, student, athlete, you have to recognize this and stay committed to what you love.

Yeah, that is so true. You stick with it and go through the adversity, go through the up and downs. And I'm just going to switch the conversation a little bit because, I mean, you have an amazing story. And I knew as an athlete, and I've talked to a lot of athletes that back in the day, a long time ago, I'm updating. I'm 54 years old. Back in the day, we were afraid to talk to the team psychologist because what we thought might go back to the coaches was that in college sports at all. Did the athlete feel they were not confident that what they wanted to share with outside help?

Oh, absolutely. There's definitely has been a fear for student athletes because they don't. They don't want to appear weak, they don't want to appear that they can't handle things. The trust factor is very important and difficult to develop in an athletic department because you must have that trust between the coach and the player, the player, the coach, and then also the role the psychologist or psychiatrist can play. So there's much improvement we can do to make resources more available and to build the trust factor.

And that's where we're going to bring it up, that you're a big advocate for mental health. And I'm going to leave it to you just to share your story because it was out there and I saw it, I read about it, it intrigued me, it inspired me because we need more people to come forward because sometimes as an Athlete I know I hid behind a mask and especially as a coach. How can you let people know your personal business? But I'm going to let you share that. How you became an advocate for mental health and where did all that start?

Well, my life has been challenged as I was diagnosed with bipolar when I was 30 years old. And coaching, it was the year after I gave birth to my daughter. And obviously that's a huge challenge. Brain health is incredibly important, but I never wanted to give up coaching and I had to keep it very private because I couldn't risk the judgment I may get from administrations in terms of job opportunities. After we played for the national championship at Michigan State in 2005, I was 39 and I thought I may have the platform in which to talk about mental health and also be able to come out and talk about my own experiences. I was counseled not to do that because I wanted to continue coaching. I was recruited to Duke and just ended up with a 28 year career that I just am so proud of. And all the student athletes I worked with were phenomenal. So I think I did the best thing. But then after that, a couple years ago, one of my teammates daughter took her life, my college teammate. And I was in the church at that time during the very sad funeral and service. And I just felt at that point I was being, I felt directed, like I needed to tell my story from a coaching perspective and help any way I could. Because players are coming out talking about mental health, which is very important. But no coaches are. No coaches probably feel they are able to do so. So as I walked away from Duke, I knew I had a story to tell. That Secret warrior, the book, and it's just come out and I think it can help all ages and I think it can help parents and lots of people understand the perspective of mental health.

Yep, I 100% agree. And I've said this on a lot of the shows because we bring on coaches, we brought on a lot of former athletes that played at different levels. And I say this a lot, but every good story has a struggle and a lot of us have struggled. But you came out and really shared something that you wouldn't hear a lot of coaches come out with. I mean, they're just, maybe they just, they're too masculine or they feel that they don't want to share their personal life. But you're really impacting a lot of people, players, families. It's fantastic what you're doing.

Yeah, well, I hope so. In defense of any coaches that have mental health Issues. You know, they're protecting their families and their lives and their jobs, and they're not sure, you know, if that's something that may be a huge distraction to their team and their program. So they have personal choices. You know, what to make of that. For me, I've been fortunate to have a really exciting career, and it was time to step away from Duke. I felt it was time for a coaching change and opportunity to pass the torch. And as I did that writing Secret Warrior was definitely on my mind. I wrote it very quickly. My publisher, John Kohler Books, has been amazing. We've been all over everywhere marketing, because it's the kind of thing where I'd like to build a foundation for mental health and really kind of reach out through motivational speaking, education and reminding people that stories over stigmas are. That's. That's the way it needs to be. Stories over stigmas. And no matter what you suffer with, there is a way out, there is a way for help, and you should never try to go it alone.

That's great. I love that. I'm going to. I'm going to write that down. I'm going to cut. When I come back and hear this, I'm going to write that down. Stories over stigmas. That. That's awesome. So I read somewhere you wrote that, you talked about, like, bipolar. It does not discriminate. It does not, you know, bipolar, that a mental health condition does not discriminate. What do you mean by that?

Oh, any gender, race, socioeconomic class, anyone. It. It can affect you and blindside you in such an incredible way. So there's anyone out there, and then there are all the extended people, what I call the survivors of folks with mental health, relative to trying to provide the support. Approximately 2.8% of people may have bipolar, but when you think about anxiety and depression and all the ailments out there, all the brain health issues, that's a huge percentage of our country, particularly now with the pandemic. And so we've got to have some fortitude and really move forward with communication and letting people know how to get support. Improving in that support and also improving in the connectivity of that support. The different elements, the doctors, the therapists, the families, trying to get everybody on the same page.

That's great. Mental health was not really taught. It's coming out. I'm more aware of it now. It's like maybe the last three years, I really started to hear about athletes and mental health. A lot of players are coming forward. We had a player named Clint Malarchuk you should connect with him. He speaks all over North America, the world. And he was a goalie that had a tragic accident in Buffalo. I think it was 1988. He was never the same after that. He almost lost his life, had a skate in the neck. Without going into details, it was in Buffalo. We were playing St. Louis. And now he travels the world sharing stories and helping people. But what he did and the same thing you're doing is other people are following. Now we have people like yourself. Not that you followed him, you might have been doing this before him, but other athletes. Theo Fleury, another hockey player that we know of. And there's other people really coming out and sharing this and it's helping so many people.

Well, I certainly think it will and can continue. And I think the more people in the leadership roles, again, the student athletes have been more open about some of their journeys and how they've dealt with that. But I do think people listen to coaches a lot. I think they listen to motivation and how to have a mindset. And, you know, dealing with bipolar isn't very different than having the same focus for so many other things you do as a, as a coach. I mean, you've got to have a focus. You've got to be able to compartmentalize. You've got to be able to trust and work with a team. Not only your current team, but your doctors and the people that you've put together to support you. And so it's really an exercise in your ability to think clearly and also recognize that the bad feelings and the dark moments are very real, but they're temporary and they can be dealt with. And you need to always think about that one more day. There's one more day to tackle this. And again, moving forward instead of moving backwards and not being afraid to share your story.

Yeah, that's so true. And I've done a little research on if somebody has bipolar. Not an expert at all, but I would have to think if you would be able to identify it being a coach, especially if you went back to coaching like you said you might. But if you went back to coaching. Coaching is about serving, leading, helping, being there, being tough on your players. But overall you would be able to identify it probably much better than most because you lived it.

I think that is true and that's definitely what occurred and helped me become a better coach, was learning how to communicate with student athletes better, especially after my diagnoses and then doing so well as we finished out at Maine, just a wonderful eight year experience. And then I felt I was able to be a better coach. I saw anxiety, I saw depression in student athletes, eating disorders. There are different things that you could identify. Now, I had to be very careful because I had to make sure the privacy of the student athlete was protected, which means I couldn't approach the student athlete directly, but I could observe and then do my best to find a way to best motivate that student athlete. And you do that individually. Your motivation is very individual. And then, of course, you've got the collective team motivation, but you've got to take care of the individual relationships first. And sometimes there's conflict. Of course there's conflict. It's not always. Everyone believes the same thing, that conflict is part of the relationship. And in that conflict, if I was given a chance to help, I would definitely talk about taking care of yourself, being good to you, and also seeking help. If, in fact, that seemed like that was something they needed to do.

Yeah. And it's great that you'd be such an asset to so many. So I'm gonna reverse the clock back a little bit. And I was a captain of a minor league team and a couple. So I don't want to say who or the coach, but a player called me, and he was in his bathtub, and he was blowing bubbles. I go, what are you doing? He goes, I want to kill myself. I go, oh, my gosh. I didn't know how to handle it. I was a young player. I was a captain of the team. And I said, please, are you okay? And I didn't know what to do. Do I call the police? I mean, I really wasn't educated. I think the players should be educated nowadays and maybe be able to identify things before people get to a point like that. You've experienced and I've experienced with people in the past.

Yes. That's very, very difficult for anybody to understand what to do in that situation. The only good news of that situation was the person cried out for help, meaning they made a phone call. And many times when young people decide to take their lives, there is no warning. There is no phone call. And by making that phone call, the opportunity is there to keep the person on the phone and to be able to get somebody else to help you, of course, to make that 911 call and to get real support to that person. But people. You know, people get in some tough spots, and they're very dark, and. And the best thing anyone can do is to try to keep the individual talking. Talking in a way of conversation, not being judgmental. But trying to discuss, well, why was that person, you know, in the bath or, you know, trying to almost distract that person to a conversation to buy some time. But I can't imagine what that would feel like to be in that situation. I was in a similar one one time. And I can say that just continuing to converse and then get help there is the only way to go.

Well, unfortunately, many years ago, and I would never talk, I don't ever would want to talk about the coach like this because times were different. But I went and saw the coach. I said, we have a problem. And he looked at me and said, well, tell him to wake up, toughen up. I said, you don't understand. I said, I didn't know what to do. He says, well, tell him to wake up. He says, tell him life isn't so bad. He's in the minor leagues, he's getting paid. And I walked out of there. I was. I was kind of empty. And this was an old school coach. Again, I'm not here to talk about that so much, but I don't think we knew what to do back many years ago, 20 years ago.

Oh, we didn't. I mean, of course, I was 25 years ago in my diagnoses. And there's just such taboo. And people are so afraid, you know, just so afraid of what can happen or what it meant or didn't understand how anybody's mind can be altered in such a fashion. So the education element has come a long way and we definitely have learned a lot in the past 25 years. But now we're moving into a position where we can do much better, much better with access to health care, much better with the drugs that people are taking, those that need to take drugs. There's the whole cognitive behavioral therapy piece. We're having a good therapist to rethink and reformulate the way people evaluate their lives. There's just so many elements to it and we've got to commit to it, make changes and get excited about the future being better for all those that suffer on the continuum of mental health.

Yeah, maybe I could ask you a few questions because I don't know and you don't have to answer any of these questions. But just for some of the listeners that don't know, is bipolar depression a lifelong condition?

Yes, it's a lifelong condition that has triggers in terms of how it happens. You can have manic episodes and depressive episodes. There's bipolar one and two that kind of connect in a way. But having both different episodes brings on Both. And, you know, it's. It's treatable. It's something that can be managed. Yes. There are different levels on the continuum. I'm not trying to simplify it any way. Some people cycle much more quickly and have to deal with it much more aggressively. Other people less so. So there's a continuum of bipolar, but it is treatable. And it's also often, you know, affects people that are fairly bright people, creative people. It's the brain at work, and it's just overworking or underworking. And medication is normally the answer in finding out that balance. Medication is the key.

Well, thanks for that, because I didn't know. I mean, some of us don't know. And maybe it's time that we take a deep dive into it. So now we'll talk about the book. And I don't want. Obviously, we want. I'm going to read the book, so I don't want to know the book. I remember it's funny sometimes in sports. We've had a lot of comedians I played with, and they would rip off the last chapter of the book so you couldn't read it. But does your book educate on mental health, or is it, like you said, it's for everybody. What's the main purpose of the book? The purpose and objective of the book.

Is to educate and motivate and give people hope as much as possible through a story. A story that obviously happened to me. But the women in the book, or the women and men in the book, are truly the warriors. So Secret Warrior is singular, but the people that make a difference, it's very plural. And I find a team and I find a way to trust with my faith, with my friends, with my doctors. And I hope it can inspire others to know that they're not alone, that there are other stories, and that the darkness can, in fact, you know, change and turn to very good things. Again, there is a continuum, but this is my story, and a story that.

I hope can help people, and I know it well. So where can we get the book?

Amazon, Barnes and Noble right now. It's exciting. It's. Right now it's selling well on Amazon. There's a soft cover for 1695, a hardcover, of course, for more. But it's really. It's doing well and we're excited, the support we've received. So Amazon, Barnes and Noble, it's there. And hopefully people will order. And if there's anything I can do, people can reach me. Joannemcauleymail.com I'm doing all sorts of speaking and zooms and things that can help dive a little bit deeper into mental health.

Okay, tell me the name of the book again. I know it, but I want our listeners to really clue in and listen to this. I believe everybody should buy this to support an amazing cause, to educate, to help. You're serving a lot of people. Share the name of the book one more time.

Secret Warrior.

Joanne, it was so great having you here today. It's been. I've. I've learned a lot in a short amount of time and I'm sure everybody else will learn a lot from you as well.

Well, thank you. I wish you the best. This is great to get the word out and to talk to so many people, so I'm honored to be your guest.

Thank you for listening to this episode of the Mike Hartman Show Show. If you're enjoying what you've heard so far, please feel free to rate, subscribe and leave a review on your preferred podcast listening platform. We really appreciate that effort. We'll catch you in the next episode of the Mike Hartman Show.