Ryan Walter-NHL Stanley Cup Champion On Leadership

Mike Hartman, performance mindset strategist.

This is Develop the Mindset of a.

Champion with former Stanley cup champion Mike Hartman. Welcome to another episode. Today my guest is Ryan Walter. Ryan played more than 1,000 games in over 15 seasons in the National Hockey League. He was drafted second overall by the Washington Capitals. Ryan was named one of the youngest, if not the youngest. I have to do my research. I know Steve Yzerman is up there. One of the youngest NHL captains ever. Stanley cup champion with the Montreal Canadiens, Captain of Team Canada. He was also, back in our day, the vice president of the National Hockey League Players association and was honored man of the Year. He's the author of five books, which I highly recommend. TV analyst Ryan has a master of Art degree in leadership and business. Ryan, it's so great to have you here today. Can you please share your story with our listeners?

Yeah. Thank you, Mike. You know, you and I love the game of hockey. And I started playing in Burnaby, British Columbia, up in Canada, and there was no outdoor ice in Burnaby, only rain. So if you wanted to be a hockey player, you had. You had to get up early and get on the ice early. And I loved all of that. That was just awesome. At 15 years old, I ended up playing junior hockey. I left home, played, went from Burnaby to Langley, British Columbia, the BC Hockey League. Then I was taken up at 16, 17 to the Western Hockey League, which was the Kamloops Chiefs at that time. Our team, when I was 18 years old, was sold to Seattle. So I was drafted, fortunately, number two in the world from the Seattle Breakers. In those early days, I was drafted to the Washington Capitals. Loved it there, never wanted to move. And then I was traded to the Montreal Canadiens in 82, played there for nine seasons, got to a couple of cup finals. You and I played lots, you know, lots of time in the NHL. And to be in Montreal was pretty special. And then Serge Savard asked, you know, at the end of my time, where do you want to play, Ryan? And I said, in Vancouver. I want to go to the Canucks. So I came home and played my last two years with the Vancouver Canucks. And, Mike, it was. It was just an awesome time in my life, but until you take me back, I spend very little time thinking about it. I'm a pretty much a today, tomorrow guy.

Well, I'm going to share something with you because I always like to add a little story within the story, because you have a great story and I've always known you. So when I was my. My dream was my first time I went to the Montreal forum. I was 9 years old with my father. He was a photographer for the Red Wings. They. They got his seats way up in the corner because we couldn't afford anything else. And I was at the Montreal Forum, and I told my father, I'm going to be here one day. And when I was with the Buffalo Sabres in 1986-1991 is when I played against you a lot, because the Adams Division, we would play Montreal eight times a year, then we play you in the playoffs. So I got. It's not an embarrassing story. I'm just gonna. Just. I shared this. Actually, I was talking to my girlfriend today. I said, I have to share this story. So my first time in the Montreal Canadiens, here, I'm walking in the building and I'm saying, I can't believe I'm really here, and I'm playing against Ryan Walter and guys like this within it. But I realized once I put my skates on, I said I wasn't gonna take it easy on Ryan. But once I got to the. To the building, I said, boy, you know, I can't believe I'm sitting here with Ryan Walter. And I know a lot about you. I love your background. And I just want to talk a lot about your leadership, because you've taken leadership from on the ice to off the ice. And what is the most difficult thing or most difficult part about being a leader?

Ooh, good question, Mike. You know, leadership is so vast, isn't it? It's gigantic. Like, the more I learn about leadership, the more I get to spend time, CEOs and presidents of companies, with managers, with coaches, you know, with high performers. It's almost like the less I know. And so leadership is one of these areas that is. It's a lifelong pursuit of growth. And John Maxwell, who I enjoy his stuff, said this leadership is influence. That's such a good point. Because if we're sitting on the couch, nobody needs to follow. Leaders are moving. We're moving in a direction. We're accomplishing things. And if we're not doing that, nobody's going to follow. So leadership is influence. The other thing that I think I would say is that leaders are learners, and it's a lifelong pursuit. I'm learning so much about leadership and resilience during this COVID 19 time, and we're actually spending a lot of time over zoom, developing courses for clients around performance leadership and performance resilience. So how do we keep people resilient? Right? How do we keep them on their game when they're playing in the Stanley Cup Final because that's a different pressure. And so is COVID 19. So leadership is a great subject, Mike. You and I could spend the whole day on.

We can. And, you know, I know, like, how do you lead through change? Because I know there's a. Leadership is leadership, whether if it's in corporate America. You were the captain in the National Hockey League, one of the youngest captains ever. How do you lead through change, especially change today, because even in the world has changed. The Millennials has changed, the hockey players have changed. So how do you lead through that?

Well, that's a great question. I think that one of the keys hasn't changed, and that is we have to first do what we say and say what we do. You know, that hasn't changed, has it, Mike? I mean, if the leader is not congruent and if the leader doesn't have that honesty and that and that integrity, then it's very hard to follow the leader. And I think that that's. The character of the leader is still a really important part of leadership, because at the end of the day, you have to believe in the leader and you have to trust the leader. How can that happen?

That is so true, Ryan, because they always say everything starts from the top. It always starts at the top. Even with corporations within a sports organization, leadership starts from the top. I mean, you could be telling me more than I. You know, you've written five books on it, but so how do you monitor the performance of people that you have to lead? How did you share with me? How did you do it in hockey? Then I'd like to learn more about the business world.

Yeah, you know, I'm not sure I got this figured out. I don't have a process says sort of do ABC and you're going to get D. I think that there's no doubt that you're always checking in on what other people sense of the leader, because you have to have a feel for the influence of leadership. I'll pause for a minute, Mike, and share a story from Scotty Bowman. So one of our books, we ended up interviewing a whole bunch of NHL coaches. So Mike Johnson and I interviewed NHL coaches, and I asked Scotty Bowman, I said, scotty, you know, you've won consistently won Stanley Cups. What's the key to winning? And here's what Scotty said at first. He said, well, what do you mean, Ryan? Like goaltending? And then he shook his head and he said, no, no, no. He said, I know exactly what you're Talking about, he said, the key to winning in the NHL is committed ownership.

That's so true. I played for Scott.

What you just said is so important. Yeah, exactly. And what you said is so important. If the owners aren't committed to winning, if they're just committed to making money, then the rest, the managers and the coaches and the players won't be committed to winning either. And if you look at the great sort of dynasties, you know, you look at New England, you look at Montreal, you look at, you know, the, the Oilers, you look at different teams, you know, go to ownership and try to figure out, you know, why they won. Now Peter Pocklington might be the exception.

That's so true. Like I, I've learned so much from, from some of these great leaders. And I played for Scotty Bowman and I told the story before. He used to tell me there's four games being played because he always wanted to keep us on edge. And I said, four games being played. I just recently told the story on the air and I said, I don't really understand. He goes, mike, there's the game that the fans see from up above. So they see this game, and I'm not sure they see the correct game, because on a power player penalty killing, they're going to yell, shoot, shoot, shoot. And then there's a game that your friends and family see. They say, oh, Mike Hartman, they think you're great. You know, they think you're good, you should be playing. And then there's the game that the player sees, like, I'm on the bench and I'm not playing a lot, and I'm wondering why I should be playing more. How come I'm not out there, you know, killing penalties, I'm as good as this guy. Then Scotty said, there's a game that I see. And the game that I see right now is you need to fit into a role. And that role is every time you go on the ice. I need you to play smart. I need you to win the one on one battles. I need you to get the puck out. And as soon as you start doing anything fancy, like making a backhand pass like you did in practice a week ago in your own zone, that would be the last day you'll play. And I learned. So leaders have great systems. Yep. And I read on your website you talk about we're going to go a little bit deeper into things because I love the leadership point of view you talked about. I think you talked about the intrinsic and the extrinsic. Can you explain That a little bit. When you mean intrinsic and extrinsic and leadership.

Yeah, for sure, Mike. Every leader, when they're on, takes the intrinsic. That tends to be sort of hidden underneath the rug. Right. Like there's things in every company and every team that are not steady and great. Leadership takes the intrinsic and makes it extrinsic. Right. The leader can't be afraid to bring things to the top to have the discussion. You know, I learned from a great captain by the name of Bob Gainey, and Bob was really good at, you know, taking things that guys wouldn't talk about and surfacing them. And we call it, in corporate America, we call it getting the unsaid said.

That makes so much sense.

That either sinks your team or it swims your team. Right. People need a voice and leadership that is afraid of that voice won't work.

That's so true. I learned this in my coaching days, way back, because I, you know, we talked 16 years ago. I remember we were in Vegas doing. There was an event and I really got to know you and I even liked you better than when I not necessarily played against you, but I knew all about you as the character you were. I really got to know you really well. And I've learned this in coaching, that there's the intrinsic. So people, when they say, what does that mean? That. That means like you're. It could be your emotions and your feelings. The extrinsic, how I looked at it is what. What is going on in the outside world. And then we talk about the systemic, you know, what is, you know, what is. Like if I say, oh, this looks like it's red, and somebody might say, no, I think it's a little, you know, it's a dark red. It's the systemic part of the, of whatever that situation is. And I've learned that within. Within sports. So just taking the intrinsic. My emotions and feelings. So a leader has to have the intrinsic, extrinsic and systemic to be a good leader and to understand their people. And that's the next question I was going to ask you is what. How would you describe some good attributes of a leader or assets of a leader?

Well, you know, there's Posner and Kouzes, who are two great authors and they read, they write the. It's called the Leadership Challenge. And we studied them when I went back to school. But they have gone worldwide and they have asked people who would willingly follow a leader. They said, what are your top characteristics that you want in leadership? And here's what they. Here's what they found. This is over 10 years worldwide study, 10 years running. Number one, honesty. Number two, forward looking. Number three, inspiring. Number four, competent. And Mike, if you and I look back at the great leaders that we've had in our life, the great coaches, all of them, you know, they might not be 100% in all of those characteristics, but they have most of them in place and that allows them to stay congruent, right? Connected with their team.

So true, so true.

So.

So you wrote this, and I love this because, you know, a part of what we say, it's stories to develop the mindset of a champion. And I have a lot of people that haven't won championships, but I know, I know you did. You wanted with the Montreal Canadiens and Team Canada, and you did a lot with the women's team as well. But you wrote, you must be a champion before you win a championship. Can you explain that a little bit more into detail?

Yeah, sure. Sure will. And I think that the idea of the inner work, we call it the inner game that generates the outer performance is so important. And that's where my wife Jenny and I do most of the work with leaders, we don't worry too much about, you know, are you in chemicals or are you in hockey or, you know, are you coaching basketball? Because the good news is that people are people and that the inside game is the key. Right? It always shows up first. So you want to become a champion before you win a championship. And I think part of becoming a champion is that it never ends. It's continual. And it includes things like confidence, not cockiness. It includes things like agility and resilience. Right? It includes all of these things that leaders are wanting in their people but don't know how to train. Now, I'll give you a quick example. We have built what we call the three performance scores. And this is maybe an easier way to look at it. So we have every person that I've ever met has performance, outcome, score, right? So at the end of the day, your outcome is what you do and everybody sees it. You know, Mike Hartman had 40 goals this season. Wouldn't that be awesome if you and I had 40 goals, Mike?

Well, that's unrealistic, but I like it. Sounds good.

Then. And then the second one is the key, and that's called the process score. So most people look at outcomes, but very few focus on the process that's going to get them the outcome. The third piece is what you're talking about, and we call it the performance resilience. Score. And this is the inner game. This is the one where we look at the belief system and the mindset of the person so that we can better lead and influence the thinking and the believing of our people.

Oh, I love that. And I've learned this. It took me a long time to learn this because sometimes a lot of things would come across my desk because I've done leadership coaching myself for a long time and say, hey, look at this instrument. Look at this tool. Hey, can you use this in leadership? And every time I looked at it, it took a lot of energy from me. So what I've learned, and I've heard you say this before, you said, as a leader, it's so important to invest in yourself. And I've heard you, you talk about that. I think that's in one of your books. Please share that with us.

Yeah, and, you know, it's probably not original, obviously, you know, if you think about Warren Buffett, so pretty good investor, you know, I wish I would have been with his group over the years. And his point is, spend as much money as you can on yourself first.

That makes so much sense.

So it's personal growth that's going to drive the rest of our life. And I am really thankful, Mike, that one of my top values is curiosity. And curiosity has driven me to always excel, always learn, always develop. And I think that's why we have a. A leadership development company. What I'm taking in the intake needs an output. And so when I learn and grow, I get to share with executives and high performers all over the world.

Well, I've learned so much, too. Like, over the years, I've met leaders from different companies, and I don't like the word fail or I don't have a crystal ball. And I can't say, oh, this guy's going to fail. But. But somebody once said this, and it's an old cliche. Do you want to be interested or interesting? And I know you as a captain in the National Hockey League, you cared about your players. And I know within your leadership business, do you get into that a little bit about really being more interested in your team and your people than being the interesting individual?

Ooh, that's a good one, Mike. I think that one of the top skills for leaders in 2020 is to learn how to ask more questions than tell people what to do. That we're. We're teaching leaders how to ask. And this idea of questions is really the essence of leadership and coaching right now. And it helps to develop what. What science has found is called metacognition, which means thinking about thinking. So when we, as leaders, ask questions to our people, we can actually increase or adjust the thinking of our people. And that is the primary idea or the primary goal of leadership.

So you talked about values earlier on. And what. What does a leader value or how they should value their team? How important is it? Because sometimes there's a lot of competition within hockey. We compete in practice. Our leaders have to be there. I remember in the old days, there was sometimes the odd fight in practice or people within companies not getting along. But competition amongst a team is that healthy?

Ooh, it certainly is. I mean, there's. You and I have experienced that. But then at the end of the day, we use a couple of words that we think are important. If you have internal competition, it be healthy with what we call emotional permission. If the team has not given each other emotional permission, then feedback is criticism. But if the team has allowed emotional permission to per. Permeate the team, then feedback or competition is healthy. We're trying to develop each other's skills to win instead of being afraid that you're gonna hurt my feelings. Those two words in corporate America right now are absolutely critical. And very few leaders know how to find them, generate them, or teach about them.

And I'm surprised there isn't more training on leadership in any business. I used to work with a lot of dentists. I worked with hundreds of dentists. Initially, that was my business, thanks to a friend in Buffalo. He connected me. I would tour with him around the country, and I would talk to these dentists. I said, a dentist is like being on a team. The average is 10 to 30 people in an office on the average. And let's say you have 10. So then you have the. You have the. You have the dentist, you have the hygienist, you have the office manager, you have all the surrounding staff. You have the marketing person. As soon as that dentist tried to go beyond his or her role and try to do more and try to do it all, I noticed the team collapsed. And it's the same within sports. It's not like we're robotic, but it was. I think it was important that as a team, that everybody knew their role. Share some of your captain experiences in the NHL, because I think people would love to hear that. Or even in corporate America working with teams now.

Yeah, we. We. We love this idea of understanding the concept of the role within. And it's. Especially hockey, it's so fluid, you know, so your role, if somebody gets hurt on the Power play, Mike. You might end up on the power play. So it is a fluid understanding of your role. But here's what I think is maybe one of the keys is, as you look at how teams are brought together, it is about people, and so it is about values. And you mentioned that earlier, but it's also around the hearts and minds of people. So. So culture. One of the things that we. We do a lot of work around, Mike, and we have a. A concept that we built, a model that we built called the five Mindsets of High Performance. And what we do is we. We help leaders and cultures and, you know, teams understand the common language of the business, right? Because at the end of the day, language is a huge indicator of performance. And you and I know it's not just the outer language of culture, but that is powerful. It's also the inner language, the voice that we say to ourselves. And that language, basically, if you want to look at it, business and NHL teams and NBA teams run on language.

That's so true. I. I love that. That's true. It's how you communicate. And the game has changed. I've watched even today, I'm here in New York, and I do a lot with the alumni, and I'm around the coaches here, which is which. They're great. And you may remember Lindy Ruff, he's an assistant coach, and they communicate with their guys so well. And it's what you say to them because you learn as a coach, and it could be in business, too. And this is going to lead me to the next question is what you say to one person may not be the way you say it to another. I heard Jerry Seinfeld say this on TV the other day as your tone. That tone can mean a lot. So how do you go about reprimanding a team member and doing it in the most appropriate way?

I think you said it really well with the coaching staff in New York. You have to know your people. When I was coaching in Vancouver, we would divide up the team amongst the four coaches, and every day we would connect with our four or five guys that we divided up. Just checking in, you know, hey, how's your daughter's flu? You know, is she still feeling okay? And just understanding your people. What Hank Sadin could take when. When we were in Vancouver, you know, was much different than, you know, maybe a player like Mason Raymond, you know, he was much more fragile, and the message had to be different. So you're right. But I think most leaders understand that we have to know our People, we have to get a feel for the deeper, inner side of our people. But what we're finding in 2020 is that leadership doesn't take the time or feels like they don't have the time to get close to people because they're producing. And so that's one of the things that seems to go away in the.

Area of leadership, you know, And I tell this to people a lot. I was the captain of Hershey when we won the Calder cup at the end of my career. It was a tough year, a lot of injuries, but I was named the captain. I was sent down from Colorado for rehab as I tore my. Had my second surgery on my stomach and ended my career. Played a few games with the team, and we won a Calder cup, which was a great experience winning a championship at any level. And I learned that there are many different leaders. Like. Like the Mark Messier type leader is a very quiet leader, and when he spoke, it really meant something. And how was your leadership skills? Were you a more vocal leader with a. In the NHL or were you a quiet leader? What. What kind of a leader were you, Ryan, when. When you were with. In the. In the National Hockey League?

Yeah, I was a little more vocal, Mike. I was the type of personality that liked to talk, encourage people, you know, a little. And it actually helped my game as I. As I voiced things to my teammates. You know, it sort of was like it reverberated back and touched my heart, so I was a little more vocal. But I think the key to leadership is to know timing. Like your point with Mark Messier is, is to know when to stand up and what you stand for. And I think that that's a key component that will never go away with leadership because the leader sets the tone for the culture. And when I say leader, I mean, there's always going to be an org chart. But your point is an important one, is that leadership happens at every part of the organization. We actually have a new term in 2020. We say that there is no followers.

I love that.

It's leaders leading leaders and leaders following leaders.

I like that. Even hockey.

So in other words. No, I just finished that thought, Mike. So in other words, everybody must take on the responsibility of a leader at one point in the game.

Yeah, that's going to lead me to the last thing. I have a lot of questions coming in. We have a few minutes. Blair Stewart. Hey, Mike. Say please say hello to Ryan and another one here. Can you please take us through the experience when you won the Stanley cup of the Montreal Canadiens.

Well, that was. I'll give you that story. And it was a quick one for me with three games to go in 1986. In that season, I broke my ankle. And so I watched my team win without me. And Mike. That's got to be the hardest thing in sport, right? You experience that, you know, even with your stomach issues. And so here's what happened. About 12 days into the playoffs, I was having the biggest pity party of my life, right? Poor me. I can't believe God allowed this to happen. And then on day 13, I decided to change. And I tell that story in our book Hungry, because I think it was a key story in my life that I chose instead of having the pity party, to go to work. And every time I was on the ice. I'm sorry. Every time my team was on the ice, I worked out. So. So whether they practiced or they played like, I was huge. I worked out for three or four hours a day. And by the time the team got to Calgary in the Stanley cup final, the doctor asked if I wanted to take an X ray and see if it was ready. And he said, oh, it's still a little crack there, but, you know, let's put some freezing in and try it. And I got a chance to play in the last five games of the Stanley Cup Final, and it was the blessing of my life. So am I ever glad I didn't stay in the pity party. And I chose to get hungry.

And that's a great lesson for everybody because we learn in life or sports, things are up and down, things are like this. You know, I tell people they're like this and they go like that. That happens a lot. But if you just could be balanced and weather the storm, and I'll share the same thing, Ryan. When I was at the New York Rangers, I was told at the end, you know, I got hurt pretty bad a few times, but I knew my role. I wasn't going to play in the playoffs. And they said, just be ready. So even to the last game, I rode the bike in the dressing room, knowing that I had to keep this positive mindset in. You know, you're still part of it. It's a long year. And I talked to Eddie Olchuck about this a lot to this day, that we helped out each other, and we had a team of leaders to help us. And I just. Ryan, you've written some great books. You've done phenomenal things. I know you're in a place where I want to get out and visit in Vancouver. I know you have a retreat in British Columbia that you do leadership work with, and you have many books that I think you need to get your hands on. I know one of my friends bought your book years ago and he still talks about you to this day. His name is Joe Turso, and he says, oh, this guy went to Harvard and Wharton. A friend and a mentor of mine, he says, oh, Ryan, Walter Rice sends me all of the materials. And where could people get your books or learn more about. About you right now?

Thanks, Mike. RyanWalter.com is the place to, you know, sort of go and have a look and the books are there and different things that we do is there. And then, you know, I love people, so I just. Just give them my. My email, ryanwalter.com and send me a direct message and we'll talk. We're doing a lot of work over Zoom right now. We're doing half day training sessions on leadership resilience, high performance, team development. And so it's pretty cool because sitting here at Theta Silence, we can touch people all over the world.

Well, I'm gonna conclude with this. This was great. And you touched on it earlier. Some people would say, well, I'm not a leader. Yes, you are. You said we're all. There's leaders and there's people that. We're not followers anymore. Everybody could be a leader. Ryan, thank you so much for doing this with us. And this was great. I mean, you gave a great education to everybody. And thank you very much.

Thanks, Mike. Great to be with you.