Marketing Mess to Brand Success

Hey, this is Mike Ganigs and we have a special guest. His name is Scott Jeffrey Miller and he is the author of a brand new book called Marketing Mess to Brand Success. And he is filled with all kinds of great ideas. There are 30 challenges that he talks about in the book. One of them that I thought was really interesting is all about storytelling. And he has a great story about an interview he did with Matthew McConaughey. You will absolutely want to hear this one. How about you, Gay?

Well, Scott Miller has been one of my highlights of my week this week because I finally sat down with the book and went through the book and now I got to meet Scott in person. And I'm really just amazed at how much of his heart and mind he's put into this book. So go look at it, buy it, get the challenges. They will really change your life.

Thank you, Gay and Mike. And I'm excited to learn that my great aunt cecilia left me 2 ML. I gotta figure out how to get that money in my bank account.

That's right. You'll hear all that and a whole lot more in this episode of the Big Leap. So check it out right now.

Hi, everybody, and welcome to the Big Leap podcast. I'm Gay Hendricks and today's episode we're going to be talking about how to turn movies messes into successes. And I've personally created quite a few messes in my business life that I've managed to clean up. Can I talk about that? But we have a specialist in mess cleaning up here and turning mess into success. We're going to be talking to Scott Miller and his fantastic new book called Marketing Mess Brand Success. And I hope you'll join us. Mike, what's up from your direction?

Well, Scott and I have done interviews before. He's actually interviewed me. I've interviewed him. And that came out with his last book, which was Management Master Leadership Success, which is also really good. And the first thing about Scott that he hears all the time. But he's been working over at Franklin Covey for a long time. He's had the opportunity to see every imaginable mess, both internally and also in the with all of his clients as well. And that's part of what I thought would be fun. But as usual, what I want to make sure we do is we do what we always do in the Big Leap, which we talk about Scott's biggest leaps. And I have a few marketing big leaps to ask about, but I think we should dive in and talk about some personal ones first. So Scott, you're right in the midst right now of one of the hardest things in the world to do, which is a book launch. Tell us. And Gay's done many, many, many book launches. I've done a fair number of them. What's the biggest mess going on right now in book launch land?

Well, the landscape changes, right, so rapidly. I mean, I was the chief marketing officer for Franklin Covey where we sold 50 million copies of our books. And so I've been through 30 book launches in the last decade. And what worked last year isn't working this year. What's working this year isn't working next year. Right. So I had a 35 point plan. Everything between, you know, book launch ambassadors and 100 podcasts and TV and radio and keynote speeches and Google search words and websites and, you know, I was really humbled in some areas and delighted in others. I think the key to a book launch right now is just being extremely agile. Right. Writing a great book, taking responsibility for all the marketing. For you as the author, what is the author that thinks your publisher is going to launch your book for you? But my biggest advice is just not resting on your laurels. Hopefully your previous book built a loyal reader audience, but it's been a big challenge because books are very strong right now. The book business is on fire. Digital is kind of even book print is flat. Audio is like a hockey stick right now. So it's been a big transition, a big leap for me. I don't have the umbrella of a corporate brand behind me on this book. This is my first book on my own. I'm still associated with the Franklin Covey company, but I've learned a lot and I'm delighted at the success the book is receiving in terms of reviews and people that are enjoying it. But I've been humbled the last seven days.

That's a different time to launch books for sure. Going back, we'll come back around to the book in a second, but going back to way back, as far as you want to go. Scott, what have been a couple of your big leaps in your life that got you here?

Well, how about quitting a seven figure job in the middle of a pandemic and going out on your own as an entrepreneur? That's the biggest leap I've ever taken. Right. 25 years in a for profit public company. I was an officer last November, after a year of negotiation with the board and the CEO, I left all my shares on the table and I left the company very amicably. I still am an ambassador for them. I host their podcast. But I mean, the fact of the matter is I left a seven figure job and opened up my own brand and I never looked back. And I'm excited, I'm proud, the company is excited for me. That was a huge leap, Gayle. I moved from Orlando to Utah 25 years ago as a single Catholic boy from Orlando. And I moved to Provo, Utah, where there was one Catholic, that was the priest. That was a big leap. I moved to Chicago where I knew no one. I moved to London where I knew no one. So I'm not fearless. Sometimes I'm even reckless. But I've got courage in excess.

Well, good. I'm always. I'm an old Orlando boy myself. I grew up near Leesburg, so I'm glad to see another Orlando boy make good.

Winter Park, Florida, right here.

Me too. I'm a graduate of Rollins College, believe it or not.

Winter Rollins College, right here. Man, look at that. What a small world. It is great school.

Hey, do you know that Mr. Rogers went to Rollins too?

Of course. He's like our only celebrity graduate. I know.

Anthony Perkins.

And you. And you, Anthony Hendrix. And yeah, Mr. Roger.

Yeah. So jumping out of a.

Even with a seven figure parachute, that's scary, isn't it? To. To get landed and way back even before that. Where do you think you got the guts to do something like that?

Well, let me clear, let me clarify. I did not have a seven figure parachute. I left a seven figure salary with like a little backpack and a bottle.

No parachute test.

The company was very much invested in my success and set me on a nice Runway.

My father was a 32 year associate of Lockheed Martin. Right. Very comfortable. Same job his entire life. My mother was a full time homemaker, never worked outside the home for all of her marriage. My parents are still alive and still married, so I actually came from a very stable family. They're still in the same home 60 years later. So it was interesting. Gay is that I wasn't raised to take risks. I was raised the opposite. You go to school, you go to college, you get a badge that says engineer or doctor. Lawyer. My brother got the badge from mit. Chemical engineer. I never got the badge right. I was a salesperson, marketer, author, project manager. I never had the badge. So I don't really know what gave me the courage to be a risk taker other than I kind of always wanted more. My father always said he wasn't worried about me because I had what he called where champagne tastes on a beer budget. So he was Always pretty confident I would figure it out. And I had a great work ethic. My parents instilled that in me. So that was probably. It was just, you know, the work ethic of my parents, who were hard workers in their own rights. And I realized, if it's up to. If it's going to be, it's up to me. And that's been my motto for most of my life.

Yeah, that's a good one. Well, blessings to you, and congratulations on making a success out of an early start like that. What do you think you're, you know, in the big leap. We talk a lot about the genius zone and helping people find their zone of genius and find that place in themselves where they're doing what they most love to do. What do you consider yourself? What's your genius, Scott?

I have several geniuses, and I'm not afraid to share them. I'm a voracious reader, and I don't think I've missed a copy of the New Yorker, the Atlantic Monthly, the Wall street journal. In 25 years, I read three papers a day. I read four, 42 magazines a month. I probably read 60 books a year. I'm a pretty voracious reader, and that has helped build my creativity. It's built my imagination of what could be, and I have a decent vocabulary. So I'm a fairly adequate communicator. So I think my genius is vision, kind of seeing a creative future that perhaps sometimes others can't see. Sometimes it's a mess, sometimes it's a success. I'll tell you this. I'm also quick to recover. I bruise hard and I heal fast. I don't wallow in pity. If my book misses the New York Times, if my book misses the Wall Street Journal, I go upstairs, I pout for two hours, come back down and say, what's next? I really, really subscribe to this. Sometimes a disappointment leads to an appointment. I believe that. And so my genius is probably a contagiously positive attitude, an ability to pivot, bruise hard, and heal fast, and an ability to envision sometimes a future that maybe others can't always see. Thanks for asking.

Yeah, well.

And by the way, I'm not humble, as you can tell. So I'm happy to share my answers to the question, what is your genius?

Well, in our world, humility is probably overrated.

False humility.

True that. Well, that's really interesting. You've come a long way, and I like your attitude of. Of learning. My wife always says that I'm. I'm like the Bobo the clown doll. If I get knocked over, I just go, boing.

Yeah, boing.

Yes, boing. Back up again. Mike Gay.

I was interviewing someone on my podcast a couple weeks ago. Her name.

Escapes me all of a sudden, but she just sold her company to L' Oreal for $1.3 billion. She wrote a book called, I think Believe It, Jamie Kern Lima is her name. She just sold her company to L' Oreal for 1.3 billion. And I love the line, a quote in the book that said, you might be tempted to underestimate me. Let me save you some time.

Go.

And I just. I like that motto. Okay. My sense is the two of you, Mike and Gay, you can relate to that as well.

Definitely.

That's good. That's really clever. It takes big guts and pair of cojones to be able to say that in the first place.

So I've got 1.3 billion helps, right?

Yeah, yeah, that does. That Takes the edge off, that's for sure. Which I. I do want to go back to Gay's. Gay's question and circle around with this with. With regards to leaving. I remember when we first met, I looked at you and I was like, okay, you. You're speaking, you're on the road, you're building a brand. I go, you don't seem long for. And you don't seem like a. A job guy to me. You know, I. I remember asking you a pretty pointed question about how long you think you're going to last or how long you're going to continue on here. What was the big impetus for you to. To pull the trigger and finally do it? Because it definitely felt uncharacteristic of you to be a corporate guy. That certainly was my impression all along.

Well, a couple of things. One is, I'll mention I have a lot of gratitude and loyalty to the Franklin Covey company. They invested in me over 25 years, grew me from the front line to the C suite. A lot of leaders who loved me and took me under their wings and were very patient with me and groomed me and told me, scott, don't say that. Say this. And Scott, you can't do that ever again, but you can do this. So I am. I am.

Loyal to the end to the leaders in the brand of Franklin Covey for all the right reasons. And I think the turning point was I started to realize that I had skills, that. My confidence started to increase as I was becoming a more successful podcast host and writer and author and interviewer. And I spent my entire career behind the scenes as director and producer. And that was the right role for me because I was able to lift up dozens of people as thought leaders and make their books best selling books. So I kind of looked around and said, gosh, I've made a lot of people wealthy. I've made a lot of people influential. And you know what? Maybe it's my turn. I wasn't craving fame. I don't love being noticed at airports. It's happening more and more frequently. It's always nice when someone you know wants your autograph, of course. But I think my confidence changed, Mike. I think I. I hit 49 and I realized that I had some lessons that I could teach people that I learned messes and successes. And so I took a leap. And I've had a lot of people be my champions, including the CEO and the board and the coo. And I'm very dear friends with them all. They came to my launch party last week. The CFO of Franklin Covey, the CEO and the coo, they all came and championed me on. And I don't burn bridges. I think relationships are the most important thing in the world next to perhaps your reputation or if you're religious, your soul. And it was the right timing. 25 years was the right time. 26 years would have been too long. Good. And I'm still working forward. Right. I'm on an advisory contract for three years. I still advise the CEO and board. And it's what happens when you make and keep commitments. It's what happens when you build a reputation where people trust you and even go out on a limb for you. And I'm honored to say that that's what I did.

Yeah. Homing in on the specifics of this book.

Why did it feel essential for you to go in a little room by yourself for a few hours a day for a year or so and create this book? Why was it important to you?

So the first book, as Mike mentioned was in this series, was Marketing Mess to Leadership Success. It did extraordinarily well. Sold 100,000 copies in the first year. I was shocked. Shocked. But I think it took a different tone. Gay, right? It wasn't the typical, here are all my successes. You know, from a Circle C Suite perspective. It was here are my messes, and here's what you should do to avoid them. So it had a very different tone than most leadership books, certainly most leadership books from leadership experts like myself. And I'm happy to say that I have some expertise in the area. I'm not an expert In a lot of things. But after 30 years on this topic I am so as the chief marketing officer gay I felt like the next book should be about marketing. By the way, I've signed a 10 year 10 volume deal with a publisher and I had 10 mess of success books coming out. The next one is job mess to career success, communication mess, parenting mess, name them. But I finished my career gay as the chief marketing officer and I thought, you know, this is right on my mind. I want to end the constant rivalry between marketing and sales. The finger pointing, the cancer that is always well they should have done it this way or if only you had this campaign. And I and very proud of my career gay that I didn't do that. There was no rivalry between marketing and sales. We were different leaders, we both had the same titles. But I saw marketing and service to sales and so I wrote a book that basically promotes that. I think marketing should be in service to sales even though I was the marketing leader serving the sales leader. And so I just wanted to share the successes and messes from my 10 year career as a CMO of a public global company while they were fresh in my mind. And I've done that and now I'm on to the next one which is job mess to career success.

Could you give us a knockout story of a mess to success that you've witnessed or been part of?

Yeah, I can give you 30 of them, but here's one. To be precise. There was a campaign that we were hosting for about 5,000 of our clients.

Right?

They were client facilitators. So they were certified in our content teaching it back in their organization. Not like a downline or a multi level. They just were wearing our badge teaching our content company. We created a quarterly campaign to send them all these posters, like four by two foot posters to hang up in their conference rooms as a gift if they bought some product during a particular quarter. Well, the team that I led, 15 people spent a month designing 12 posters. They were all gorgeous, we thought. I unveiled them to the CEO after a multi quarter Midas track record and the CEO who is the most gracious guy ever in the conference room and said yeah, I don't think you've hit it. I think you should go back to the drawing board. That was it. I wanted to wring his neck.

That's a nice way of saying it. So I asked him a few probing questions and he probably was right in some areas and wrong in others. But you know what? He was my client. The CEO was my client. There's such a thing as CEO prerogative. So I could have died on my sword.

I could have fought the battle that is the posters and lost the war. My reputation, my influence, my brand of being able to pivot to something else. So what I did was I thanked him for his insights. I got a little clear on where he thought we'd missed. I walked back, posters in hand, head hung low, to the marketing division. I shared the news. I said, bruce, hard heal fast. Back to the drawing board. By the way we had spent our entire Runway. There were no more days. They had to go to print. They had to be rolled, they had to be packed, they had to be shipped. Because, you know, the quarter is the quarter. Wall street doesn't give you three more days to close your quarter. Right. The quarter was the quarter. So we went back and pulled two all nighters. We came back, we unveiled them. He's like, that's it. We overpaid to get them expedited. And the point of that whole thing was, you know, had I shown, had I died on my sword, I could have convinced the CEO to run with the campaign. But I would have lost massive influence for five more years as not being a collaborative partner, the guy who has to be right. And instead I doubled the average tenure of a public CMO because I knew when to win the battle and when to win the war. The war being again, your reputation and your influence that was kind of a mess and a success there in the same story.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's often. I always tell my students that whenever they encounter a problem, what looks like a problem, it actually down under there has the makings of a breakthrough that if you can get your attention shift off as creating it as a problem. Oftentimes there's a breakthrough, a creative breakthrough staring you right in the face.

Yeah. And for me, the learning in that was less about the posters. It was more about your currency. Your currency to influence others. Right. I'd seen many people come into the CEO's office and win an argument because they had to win for their ego. And I also then saw the CEO sort of mentally check them on the box of has to win. Isn't agile. Right. Isn't looking at the whole picture and he would let them win. But then they became pigeonholed into a category. And I didn't want to be in that category. I wanted to be over here as bring Scott into every meeting. We want his creativity and his abundance. And occasionally Scott will win and occasionally he won't. But he can pivot on A dime. And that I think that was probably the reason why the board and the CEO kept me in that role twice the average tenure. Not because of my marketing genius, but because of my, my attitude, my ability to bounce back and, you know, that kind of neuroplasticity. Right. The ability to kind of, you know, turn on a dime.

One of the things that we use here is something we call the Openness to Learning scale, which has 10 ways you can be open to learning and 10 typical ways that people shut down to learning. And one thing, Scott, that I appreciate about you is your commitment to learning. It seems like you're a wide open learning machine. And the way you consume books and magazines and things like that, that to me, I'd hire you just based on that. Because a lot of people just don't take advantages of the amazing amount of wisdom and practical resources there are in books and audios and videos. I know I probably get sent 3 or 400 self help books a year. People want me to give my blurb and I can only do two or three. But I really enjoy the fact that I get to see 300 examples of how people are thinking about helping other human beings, even if I only spend five minutes reading the book. But anyway, I just wanted to salute, Scott, your openness to learning.

Thank you. Can I put a point on that? It all comes from my mother. My mother is not well educated not to go to college. Never had a career outside being a homemaker and a home manager. But I woke up every morning from kindergarten to 12th grade looking at my mother reading the Orlando Sentinel on the kitchen table every morning. My mother was reading the newspaper. And there's no doubt that had a correlation into my own, you know, sort of voracious reading and curiosity to learn more. It was my mom that I give credit for that.

Interestingly enough, my mom worked for the Orlando Sentinel for many years. She was a columnist for the Leesburg Commercial, the daily paper. And then they bought each other or something and she ended up on the Lake county edition of the Orlando Sentinel for many years. She was a columnist there and ended up kind of parlaying her column to becoming the mayor of Leesburg, Florida.

Wow. No kidding, Mike. It's a family reunion. Have you ever been to Orlando, Mike?

I have, I have.

Okay.

At least you've been there.

Yeah, yeah, no, I've definitely been there. Okay, so I've got a question for you, Scott. And first of all, I'm going to open it with a compliment because one of the things I love about your Books. First of all, this is a really good book. It's got some great stuff in it. But I love your cards. All right. And, and for everyone who's just learning about this right now, if you're listening to us, I'm holding on these cards. This is marketing mass to brand success. And they've got like the chapters on here. This. He did the same thing with his other products too. Really, really smart. I think it's a great marketing piece. It's a good, you know, it's just a great hook. It's a reminder. But I want to rattle a couple things off because I have a favorite chapter in the book. I'm going to tell you what my favorite chapters were and then I want to ask you what your favorite or most important one is. What you think the most valuable out of the 30 challenges. So I'm going to just tell you what mine are. I want to hear yours and then I'll tell you what mine is afterwards. But I liked number one, which is actually number eight. Lots of stuff won't work. Number three is staying close to the cash. Number four is become the leader of business development. Now, number nine isn't my favorite. I'm going to take a challenge with it, which is, or maybe I just didn't understand it properly. Which is don't only do what you know and like best. Yeah, I want to give you a counterpoint to that. But then leverage your promoters, build and model consistent brand standards and then finally develop your storytelling craft. But I do want to ask you, which of the 30 do you think is most important, most valuable? And of course I know, I see Gay's looking through too. So I love to get his vote and his perspective. But what do you think would you know, delivers the most value and is most important and why?

Well, I'll pick one of the ones that you Pick, which is 3. Stay close to the cash because much of the book isn't scolding, but it's inspiring marketers to stop hiding behind likes, Stop hiding behind brand and brand equity. Right. I mean, as a cmo, I understand brand equity in spades, but you cannot staple brand equity to the back of a bank deposit slip and fund payroll on it. Like you know that. And so I mean that to be serious as a marketer, you gotta be part of the cash generating machine. You gotta understand what sales needs and your campaigns can't just feed your ego. And it's why challenge nine is don't only do what you like and know best. Because I think a lot of marketers. If they love billboards, they do billboards. If they love, you know, promotions, they do promotions if they love radio. But not every business channel should follow the way you like to be marketed to people that love, you know, user interface or all over user interface, people who love TikTok or. So you get. The point is you may have to move outside of your passion and your preference zone to learn the channels that work best for your market. I think marketers go where they're comfortable, they go where they like. And I think too many marketers are in marketing because they don't want to be in sales. Well, newsflash, you're in sales and you're in sales boat rowing with them, making sure that you are as responsible for the revenue in the bank. None of this, well, we sent out the mailers or the email hit. No, no, no, no, no. Your job is to make sure that sales makes their number every month and every quarter. And that was my passion behind those two.

I was.

That's good. That was fiery.

I was, I'm firing that brother.

I was also intrigued by the challenge number 12 here. Could you say a little bit more about it? Install processes to harness creative minds. Yeah, that's one of my, that's one of my things too. But I want to find out what you mean by it.

Well, what I mean is, is that I think it's fair to say that there's a broad generalization which is true, is that creative people gravitate towards marketing, just like probably left brainers gravitate towards accounting. Don't be offended. But I think there's some truth in that. And therefore I think good marketers that have creative minds also need processes. They need systems in place that, that automate certain things that you might do by hand or the free and.

The logical flow of information. How are you documenting things? Right. How do you retrieve information? That creativity.

Without some boundaries, without some systems is just a cluster. You know what? So as a very creative person, I need to surround myself with people that are very organized, that are very productive, that are somewhat linear thinking, that are can help to marshal what could be unbridled creativity working on 20 different projects, but to help me prioritize as well and marshal and see things through the end. A good example. You know, I love a good crisis. I do my best work under pressure. I love the validation, I love to save the day. I love the dopamine, I love the adrenaline. In fact, if there isn't a crisis, I'll put one up. I'll elevate something gay to crisis level so that I get the adrenaline. Meanwhile, everyone around me is running around like a chick with their 8:12 months in a row. I need people around me to harness my creativity and help to focus it. And I'm self aware enough not just to admit it, but to talk about it and make it safe for others to talk about their messes and what their needs are. As way there's no secrets, right? No one wonders, does Scott Miller know he needs processes? No, because I'm comfortable talking about it out loud as a model of leadership so that then you're comfortable talking about your needs as well. That's really long answer.

That's a good answer though because I'm very much in favor of that myself. Because oftentimes I've worked with creative people obviously for years and years and years and one of the things that always amazes me is the amount of wasted creative energy because of the lack of some kind of uniform processes or ability to even create a to do list. You know, things that are very, very simple but have a powerful effect. Yeah.

And the right leader models the culture. Right? They model that. It's okay to talk about whether you're disorganized, but let's also talk about it. Let's talk about how you can build a skill around that, how we can put some systems in place, how you can get a tool versus talk about them behind their back and never address the problem. I think with marketers as well, marketers need to have systems that help to focus and marshal their creativity so that they're not just an idea minute or better yet, solution looking for a problem.

Very good.

On a very practical note, what kinds of tools do you use? You find yourself using a lot on your phone or. Yeah, could you say a little bit about that?

Yeah, I can. You know, I'm a little old fashioned. I have two iPhones and two laptops and I'm on zoom all day long. So I'm technically literate. I'm on eight different podcast platforms daily. But at the end of the day if you go up to my office, there is a, there's a. They're called chart pads. Like you know, like a 3M chart pad, like a sticky note but like the big poster size. And every day my, when I'm not traveling my to do list is on like a life size 2 foot by 3 foot sticky note with black Sharpie. These are the nine things I will do today and there's one beside it that are my big goals for the week. Usually five to six big deliverables for the week. Here's a good example. One of my deliverables is I want 100Amazon reviews of my book by Friday. Authentic verified reviews. That's a goal for the week. Today I have tasks that are aligned to making that goal happen for the week. So you'll always see every day. Two life size giant Post it notes with my to do list because gay I'm a visual person. I know that. And it has strengths and weaknesses around that. And so I don't keep my tasks in an app. I have a 23 year old assistant who's like MacGyver, he's so talented.

Everything.

He never writes anything down. It drives me crazy. But it's all in his phone and he's got it all there and he delivers on it. That doesn't work for me. So because I'm so visual, I like to write things out and put them on the fricking wall, then use them. If I'm going to be gone for three hours, I'll take a picture of it. I'll have it at lunch. So it haunts me. But I like that accountability to myself from a visual perspective. I'm sure your younger listeners think I'm 104, but you know what? It works for me. And I've learned where I go south, where I go sideways. So I have to put systems in to harness and kind of focus my own creativity.

Yeah, I'm with you. I love my phone and I like apps and things like that. But for me, sitting down with a yellow legal pad and a pen and sketching out my top 10 things I want to accomplish every day, to me, that gets me grounded and it's old fashioned, but it gets me focused on what I want to accomplish.

It's highly effective. So it doesn't matter how old fashioned it is.

Right.

Because it's highly effective for you. Yep.

Good, good. Very good. Well, I want to get back to the, the the question here. So I'm going to make a little statement. Which is my favorite chapter in the book is number 28. It's develop your storytelling craft. And it's all about telling an amazing story. And I would love you to share the best pitch or best story you recall hearing. And it could be of any application. I'm going to start this off. While you think about it, I'm going to give you one that I heard in a little context. So I have a client, his name is Guy. He has raised over $35 billion. And yeah, so get that so he raises money for financial organizations we've been helping him build, turn his IP into products lately, because he's. And he's really compelling. First of all, he's an incredible storyteller. And I asked him about it, and he said, I wasn't born a great storyteller. I've studied it, I've practiced it. I've had to create and craft stories that got people to want to buy really, really expensive things, like from 10 million to a billion dollars. So one of his favorite stories that I think is really compelling is Imagine. This is going to sound a little dark, but I'm just going to do it anyway. Can you think of a name of a great aunt?

Yes. What was her.

What was her name?

Aunt Cecilia.

Okay, so here would be the. The phone call. Scott Miller, this is Mike Koenigs. I'm calling from JP Morgan Chase. And, you know. But we also received word your Aunt Cecilia just passed and she lost $2 million. Yeah. So what we're calling to do is get your bank direct deposit number so we can wire that money over to you. So the question is, are you gonna. Did that get your attention? Right.

Like I said, I'm not giving you that, because that could be a scam. But you're welcome to call my attorney and talk with him.

That's just fine. Let's do that together. But anyway, that is. I know. It's so funny because I. I. The first time I heard, I thought, God, what a great story. And then everyone I've told it, told it to. That's their first thing, and they're like, sounds like a scam. That's why I asked you for her name. But anyway. Anyway, what's the best.

Story you remember thinking you've heard?

I know it. It's Matthew McConaughey. So I interviewed Matthew McConaughey on the podcast that I host. I'm privileged now to host what has become the world's largest weekly leadership podcast. And a few weeks ago or a few months ago, I interviewed Matthew McConaughey. His book, Green Lights, which is a phenomenal book. I mean, he was much. He was much better than I thought he would be. I mean, death and empathy. He's a great storyteller. And the story he told really is immaterial. It was about traveling in Europe with three of his buddies and renting motorcycles and not paying for them before he. Until he came back and he wrecked one, and then he paid at the end. And the story doesn't matter. What matters is how he told the story. There was cadence in his voice. Matthew McConaughey is a genius, understanding pitch, tone rate, variation, cadence. By the way, he can talk fast and he can talk slow, and it's natural to him. He's just a natural storyteller because he helps everyone connect to him. Auditory, kinesthetic, visual learners. Right. Whether what generation you're from, whether you're from Hollywood or you're from Texas, where he's from. He's relatable to everyone, and it comes somewhat naturally to him at the surface. But I'll bet you he's practiced it a lot, and he told some great stories that. I had nothing in common with Matthew McConaughey, but I was just. You know, I was just captivated listening to him, caring about things that I don't care about, including motorcycling across Europe for three months with my college buddies. But he's a great storyteller. Less because he's got a rich vocabulary, but because he understands how to connect to multiple people simultaneously. Because he cares. And I think he's practiced, and I think he's. I think he cares. He cares. I think he's less concerned, to quote Jim Collins with being interesting. And he's interested. He, like, asked me questions about my family, my boys. And so I'd say Matthew McConaughey is one of the best storytellers I've ever met.

That's fantastic. I grabbed the link and I'll put that in the show notes, and I just kind of previewed it in the background while you were chatting. So I have it, and I will watch that. I did see that you interviewed him and on that.

And, you know, he's been.

He's thinking about running for governor of Texas, which would be absolutely fascinating.

Because he is. I remember when I saw him open his podcast, when he decided to do his video podcast, and I don't remember if I sent that to you or not. Gay. It's like three minutes, and he rhymed. So he basically. And I. I transcribed it and I studied it, and I was like, what a freaking masterpiece. Because I could tell he was reading it. But still, it was so good. And just. It was rhythmic and musical, and it was like little rap and poetry as well. And so you don't have to have.

Great stories to be a great storyteller. You just have to care and connect with people perhaps different than you.

So good. So good. Well, I'm gonna grab the transcript as well. I'm searching for it and see if I can grab that into the show. Notes because it was so good. Anyway, keep going. That's fabulous.

Scott.

So given our time and everything, we've been talking for a while and kind of close up shop here in a little while. But from all of this, give us one juicy thing that if we only heard, if our listeners and viewers only heard or saw one thing, that they'd say, wow, I'm glad I got to know Scott Miller.

You know, chapter six challenge six in marketing mess to brand success is called decide your own tenure. And I think one of the hallmarks of my career gay has been that I don't want somebody else deciding my career for me. One of the most horrifying things I've ever heard gay was this comment from a colleague. Horrifying because it was shocking but piercingly accurate. And it was. You're never in the room when your career is decided for you. Meaning for those of you who work for large organizations, your career is being decided by your boss and your boss's boss and your boss's boss or the CFO or the board who just cut out, you know, $8 million of customer service support. So you lost your job. I never wanted my career being decided by somebody else in a room I wasn't in. So I decided early on in my job I was going to become a self disruptor, that I was going to become comfortable being fearless. And so I've always disrupted myself two or three years before. I think the proverbial boot is coming my way. And so the first part of that equation is I'm very, very comfortable disrupting myself so that I'm in control of my career. But I didn't learn that easily because it was Seth Godin, who's a dear friend of mine. He taught me the difference between being fearless and being reckless. And I've spent some years confusing the two. Gay. I think there's many years when I thought I was being fearless, but I was really being reckless with my money, my reputation, somebody else's feelings. I was the guy that was calling it out or undoing injustice. I was being reckless. I was masquerading as being fearless. So fearless in my self disruption. But I become more self aware around when was my fearlessness really just covering up recklessness. Now I've not been a wildly reckless person, but you know what? I've said some things I shouldn't have and they've come at the expense of somebody else's self esteem or self confidence or self worth. And so I'm more mindful of when to be reckless, which is probably never. But to make sure that my fearlessness isn't covering up for when I'm being reckless.

That's a really important insight. I appreciate that you've, you know, you mentioned your, your age early on. In developmental psychology, there's a saying, it says your 30s. In your 30s, your job is to find your life. In your 40s, your job is to build your life. And in your 50s, your job is to enjoy your life. And so also Erik Erickson, the great developmental psychologist at Harvard many years ago, said that in your 50s, every moment is a choice between creativity and stagnation, creativity or stagnation. And you seem well positioned to not have much stagnation in your 50s.

Well, that did not take into account, as Mike knows, that I have three sons that are 6, 9 and 11. And so there's a lot. There's no stagnation happening in this house. A lot of chaos.

But you know what? I decided to spend the last 25 years of my life and my career teaching people to avoid the messes that I found myself in. You know, walk around this pothole. Don't do that. Don't say this. So I've got eight mess of success books coming out in the next seven years because I want to give back and make my legacy. It's okay. As a leader, you need to own your mess because when you own your message, you make it safe for others to own theirs, to talk freely about their fears and their challenges and make it a comfortable environment not to wallow in it or not to license bad behavior, but to make it comfortable to say you're going to make mistakes, you're pre forgiven, you're pre forgiven, and you got to learn from them and move on. But a pre forgiveness culture is a culture. People don't quit. People don't quit. Cultures where leaders love them and care about them and make it safe to take some risks, they quit cultures where they stagnate or where they're suffocating. And so I want to give back to all the leaders and people behind me and coming up behind me to learn from my lessons. And I hope that can be my legacy.

Well, that sounds really beautiful. Well, Scott, this is really great hearing from you. I'm so happy I got to meet you.

Same here, Gay. I've heard a lot about you from Mike over the years. A pleasure to meet you and be on the receiving end of some of your wisdom and questions today.

Good. I love to get your address later. I have a new book coming out at the end of June and I want to make sure I get one right away. To you.

I'd love to read it. What's it about?

It's called the Genius Zone and it's a follow up. It's a sequel to my book, the Big Leap, which is all about how to get into your genius zone. And the new book, the Genius Zone, is how to live your life in your genius.

Awesome. I'll make sure you get my address. Thank you. And I'll buy one on Amazon.

Absolutely.

Fantastic. All right, well, for everyone here.

Scott, where should people go get your book? And obviously they can go to your website. Yes, go for it. Let's drop in the pitch here. Scottjeffreymiller.com of course.

Thank you, Mike. You're so abundant. You are like the personification of what Dr. Covey called an abundance mentality. You're always offering your platform and your spotlight to other people. Thank you so much for that. My books are sold everywhere. Amazon, Barnes and Noble Books, a million bookbub, Book Hub, you name it. Independent bookstores, Walmart, Tollhockit. Everywhere books are sold, you can find them. Just Google Scott Miller and my not so handsome mug is bound to come up. And so are the book covers of the books that I've written.

Fantastic. All right, well, I'll tell you what, your website is fabulous. I spent time on it before we got going today.

Great job. The front end is great, meaning the videos that are looping. I even noticed I was on there. That was very nice of you. But you've got great material and it's worth everyone heading over to scottjeffreymiller.com so gay, how would you like to wrap this up, my friend?

Well, I'd like to wrap it up by appreciating Scott and what you've been up to for the past 25 years. Sounds like really amazing preparation for jumping off into your own brand now. And I really appreciate how thoughtful you've been about finding out what customers really want and need and how to stay intimate in the conversation with customers from a marketing perspective. So I really appreciate all the distinctions you've made and the insights you've got in the book. And I think it'll make a big impact on a lot of people's lives.

Well, Gay, I appreciate it. The book is Marketing Mess to brand success. Second book in a 10 series mess to Success Book Job Mess to career success lands January 25th of 2022. So look for that to be a riotous look at my career, but 30 lessons and challenges that anybody, regardless of whether you're a dentist or a chemical engineer or a massage therapist that can apply to create a successful career for yourself. And maybe Mike. And you will have me back on a year from now on. Job mess.

Absolutely.

Love to.

All right.

Well, thank you. And we know where to go.

Thank you, gentlemen.