Neil Patel – Traffic and Marketing Expert

All right, we are officially live. This is Mike Koenigs. I'm here with my good friend Gay Hendricks. And we're also here today with Neil Patel. And I'm really, really excited about this because first of all, I've respected Neil for a long, long time. Brilliant marketer, but we're going something that's a little bit uncommon today. And when I say uncommon, we're not going to be just talking about marketing stuff. We're really going to talk about Neil's big leaps. And if you're familiar with the show, we've interviewed a lot of celebrities and also some big name people. And Gay and I talk about our own big leaps. So because this is actually a live show, you can post comments and questions that we'll be able to ask Neil. But gentlemen, nice to be here with you today.

Thanks for having me.

All right, thanks, Mike. And welcome, Neil. I imagine you've seen the movie Meet the Patels.

I haven't. Is it really a movie? Meet the Patel?

Oh, you must see it. It's an absolutely wonderful movie. I can't remember if it's on Amazon or Netflix, but it's by a comedian named Patel who goes through a process of having various wives proposed to him who also have to be named Patel. And so there's this long, complicated process, but it's absolutely hilarious movie and very warm hearted too. I highly recommend it.

I'm going to check it out.

Very good. Well, one of the main premises of our podcast is based on the book the Big Leap. We talk a lot about what were your big leaps that got you here. And there's another big concept in the Big Leap we the upper limit problem, which is how you transcend barriers to get to where you are. And so we'll be talking to you about some of that too, but just kind of to get started and to help the audience get to know you, tell us about one or two of your big leaps that without which you wouldn't be sitting here talking to us today.

So the biggest leap that I ever made, not really ever, I actually done probably one too many. But a big leap that I started off was I decided that I wanted to make money when I was 16 years old and I wanted to be an entrepreneur. And instead of focusing on school and college, I decided to just go after it and become an entrepreneur and try to figure out how to make money through the Internet. So I started that when I was younger and if I go back, if I never even took that leap, I started later in my journey. I Don't know where I would be.

So you're one of these happy dropouts like Mark Zuckerberg and other folks like that. You never really wish went to college or anything?

I did go to college. I finished. You know, I had a lot of students.

At my college during that time that were also employees of me, and they were in the same class. So that did help get my homework done and stuff like that. Probably not the most ethical and right way to get your homework done. But.

One thing, too, just for anyone who doesn't know of or hasn't heard of Neil Patel before, we better address that just in case. The way I know you, we know a lot of the same people. You're very well known for being a SEO expert. You've built a business that's doing and has continued to do very, very well. You've built a great personal brand for yourself. But what else do people need to know about you? That if we summarized your professional life up to this point, how would you describe yourself or how are you being described?

You pretty much described it. Most people say, I'm an SEO or I'm a marketer, or I'm an entrepreneur. There is no.

One thing that summarizes me other than, like, when I really look at everything I've done, I've just made a ton of mistakes and I've learned what not to do, and that's eventually led me down a route of what to do. And it's funny, it's, you know, when you start off your career as entrepreneur, as you guys already know, the early years is where you typically make the majority of mistakes. And if you just do something long enough, you get decent at it.

Got it.

All right.

And I think we'll go a little bit further. But gay, I want to defer to you because you put together some big leap questions that I think are super valuable and interesting that we'll talk to Neil about, and then I'll interject periodically, and then we're also going to be. We will talk a little bit about tech in the future as we move on, but we want to go through some of the bigger psychological breakthroughs first. So gay. Take it away.

Yeah. Neil, what were some of the biggest barriers you had to transcend? Barriers in yourself, your own ways of thinking, your own habits, or just barriers in general that you had to transcend or get beyond to get where you are today?

So at the beginning of my career, location was a big one. There was a lot going on in San Francisco, not as much as in la. Zoom Skype, all these solutions didn't make, weren't really around, they weren't popular. And it was really hard to start a business, whether it's raising venture capital, dealing with employees, all that kind of stuff in a virtual or web based environment. That was a huge hurdle early on. Nowadays that problem doesn't really exist. You don't even need an office for most businesses. But that wasn't the case when I first started off as an entrepreneur. And when you're starting off, you're going to college or you're just starting off and you barely have the funds, it can be hard to recruit talent and people and all that kind of stuff, at least early on. Nowadays again, I don't think people have that problem, but it was a huge roadblock. Like just think about hiring people that you need tech skill sets. And there's not a lot of jobs that exist in the region. You are, and most of them are in Northern California. Like what do you do? How do you communicate with those people when there's not an easy way to communicate with them other than the phone?

So you had to get through a lot of communication barriers early on. And where are you located now?

I'm in la.

Oh, okay, you're still in la. And if you look also inside, what is it about your personality you think that either helped you get where you are or what were some of the elements of your personality that you had to work on or look at in order to.

Get into the position you are now in your 30s?

I'm very persistent and I'm very stubborn and I do whatever I want. So if I believe in something, I just go. And I don't care what people say and I just keep pushing and pushing and pushing and I don't really give up, which can also be a bad quality too because I've lost a lot of money because of that. And that's just really helped me get to where I am. The other thing that's really helped me is I'm very analytical, I'm very data driven. You know, I constantly think about numbers. I can't turn that off in my head. And those things have really helped me get to where I am as well today.

Were you always good at numbers when you were a kid?

I was. I never really had to try on that in English history and a lot of issues there, but they have terrible grammar and spelling, but I don't really care. Good.

Well, it sounds like the modern style of communication is pretty good for you with texts and things like that. Rather than getting out a quill pen and writing long letters with it.

Correct. I'm also a really turbo manager, too. So luckily, technology has evolved where it makes things a little bit easier on that end, too.

I didn't discover that about myself until I'd launched a couple of companies. And.

I always say, first couple of ventures I launched had the trajectory of the Titanic. They would start with great fanfare, but they would keep hitting an iceberg about six months into it. And it took me a while to realize that I was the iceberg. My lack of administrative skills, my inability to do management kind of thing. So as soon as I could invent myself out of that job, I did and became more of a solo entrepreneur.

Yeah. You know, you learn so much about yourselves over the years, and it's so funny. It's like only if we knew that earlier on, our careers and our paths of success would have totally changed.

All right. Yeah.

I've got a question for Neil. And, Neil, it has to do with your ability to say no, evolving that side of you, because one thing I do know about you is you're not afraid to say no to something that might look like a giant money opportunity because it doesn't feel right, or you don't like the values the person portrays or something like that. So I'm really curious about.

That side of you and how have you been practicing the art of no and not being attached to money outcomes sometimes, or do you still struggle with it right now?

No, I've never really struggled with saying no, and that really hasn't been an issue. So I don't know necessarily how someone could overcome that because I don't have firsthand experience other than you just practice saying no. The big thing I did have issues with was focus, which is kind of similar to people who don't say no enough, in which if I saw a shiny object and I knew there was a ton of potential there, kind of like the money that you're talking about a lot. And it was in a similar. Sometimes if it was, you know, not in a similar field. Gopher. But usually would have to be a close enough field, I would continually say yes and do it because I believed you can do everything. And it took me a long time to realize that the key to success is you don't have to do 10 different things. You just have to do one thing really well. And I think it was.

Maybe seven years ago, five on the being super conservative, but five to seven years ago, where it really clicked for me, because when you're. When you grow Up. People always teach you you need to do this well and that well and be well rounded and a Renaissance man. That's all bullshit. Well, you really just need to do one thing really well and that's it.

That's good. So that leads me to the next one, which is I'd like you to talk a little bit about your evolution, your mind as an innovator and a creator. And do you have a process for creation? In other words, are you a soloist?

Where are you getting your inspiration from?

And also your motivation. The combination of motivation, energy, and the innovative mind.

Oops, did we lose them?

I think we may have frozen up there.

Standing by. There you are. Did you hear that, Neil?

Drat. Okay, well.

While we're waiting for Neil, just in case. Must be having a little bit of a challenge here, Gay. Now's the time to be a great dancing bear for a moment while we bring him back on.

Well, I did have a couple of comments. A lot of people lately have been asking to talk about more about the upper limit problem. And I want to talk about that with Neil when he gets back. But one of my earliest problems in entrepreneurial work was that inability to say no. And that stretched me out all over the place. And the other thing is that.

Early on I kept sabotaging myself with. I would make a little breakthrough and then something would come up and I would usually find some way, like in the relationship domain, to mess up so that either conflict with a person I was working with or a conflict with another entrepreneur or partner, or conflict at home. And I realized eventually that some unconscious part of myself was using those conflicts as a way to kind of slow myself down and create that upper limit problem of kind of two steps forward, one step back, two steps forward, one step back. And that. Oh, I see we have. Neil. Neil, I was just talking about the concept I mentioned earlier about the upper limit problem, that tendency to sabotage ourselves when things start going better. And if you have any examples of that, or I want to ask about how you experience that in your own life and work.

Can you repeat that again? The last part? I got the.

Example of my own life and work, but go ahead.

Yes, we were talking about the upper limit problem, the tendency to sabotage ourselves when things start going better. Like if you have a breakthrough at work, making more money, et cetera, like that, then there's a tendency to mess up at home and create relationship conflicts. It's whatever mechanism you use to kind of sabotage yourself and bring yourself back down. It's something that in an earlier Book of mine called the Corporate mystic. We interviewed about 800 executives at the time, and we found that almost everybody had different ways of upper limiting themselves that they needed to get through. And I wanted to get your perspective on that and see if you had any examples of that that you could share with the audience.

Yeah. What's funny is when things go well. When I was younger, I used to have an ego. And when I had an ego, I thought it was invincible. And I would adjust how I do things even in my personal life. And I could mess up relationships, friendships, or change family dynamics. And my mom taught me a valuable lesson one time, which helped get me over that hump and what she used to say and keep my. My mom has broken English. It's not that it's not bad, but it's not perfect. She would always tell me, don't have your head in the clouds. And I'm like, what do you mean? And she's just like, what goes up must come down, you know? She's like, don't have your heads in the clouds. And that helped keep me grounded and realized that just because things are good right now doesn't mean they're always going to be good. And my uncle actually gave me a quote which is similar to, that will also help me stay grounded, which is, when things are going well for you, keep in mind that someone else always has it better than you. And when things are really bad for you, remember, someone out there has it much worse than you. So, yes, things are gonna. You're gonna have your high moments, your sad moments, your scary moments. Right. Life is like a rollercoaster. You just have to try to stay pretty grounded and just remember who got you there, why things are going well, the time and effort, and just don't let it get to your head. And don't also get into the game that you need a change. And that's a big thing that we see, especially when people have success in business. We start seeing them blow up with fancier homes and cars and flying private jets. Like, do you really need that? If it makes you happy, by all means, go and do it. I'm not trying to judge, and there's nothing wrong with it. What you'll find is what a lot of these things can do is also change who you are. It's just easier to live your old, plain, simple life and be satisfied with what you have. In essence, be content.

Right.

So I'm going to add on to that, which is, if you think about. And maybe just for the audience, can you Describe where your business is right now in terms of number of employees and departments or clients, any kind of size things. But I'm curious, what are the upper limits challenges that you're running into right now, both personally and professionally? Where are you finding your pushing and pressing into a fear zone? Inadequacy, maybe not having the right skills, team ability to attract right people or, you know, whatever they may happen to be. Just curious.

Yeah, business is decent size. I don't know the exact size. I know we have seven offices around the world, well into the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of employees, multiple divisions. I don't know every single one. I have a CEO who runs every single one. So I just have to do my board meetings and then go from there. We don't really report on things like what's our headcount or any of that. We do track things like revenue, profitability, client happiness, customer happiness, customer success, all that kind of stuff, because those are important metrics we do track to make sure our internal team is happy, they're satisfied, they enjoy working here. But we don't look at a number like, do you employ 100 people or 200 people?

The biggest issue, the limit I'm running into now, is when you hit a certain size, it comes down to you end up having churn in your organization. It's just a matter of fact. I don't care how amazing your culture is. You know, people who tell me they never churn people, I'm like, it's because you haven't hit a big enough size. If you start adding hundreds and hundreds of employees, you'll hit a big enough size where you're gonna start churning. It's just the matter of a fact. And the big thing that we're working on is the right processes and passing data and knowledge and to any new people that come in. So then that way you don't have that knowledge gap. And it doesn't, hopefully won't take people as long to ramp up, because when you're at a good enough size and you start losing players, whether they're key players or even just other people on a team, last thing you want to do is take too long for others to ramp up because you really start seeing the numbers go down.

Got it.

All right, here's my next one.

What do you think your next evolution is going to be and what's exciting you? Intriguing you, Getting you super fired up that you aren't doing right now. And I'm curious again, both professionally and personally or technologically, if you want to Go down that rabbit hole.

So you're saying.

Repeat it again just to make sure I got it right.

The direct question is, what do you believe your next evolution is, personally and professionally?

Evolution, as in where do I want to go myself, career wise?

I'm curious what you're thinking about right now. Is it 100% on the business you have, as you have it, the technology, SEO, or is there something else, the next thing that you're thinking about, intrigued about, exploring, testing, playing with right now that's just lighting you up and getting you going?

There's nothing really.

Unique or anything like that that I'm thinking of or excited of. There's a lot of options and I see a lot of opportunities. But it comes down to what we talked about earlier, focus. So I'm just trying to focus on what we have and make it grow because we haven't even scratched the surface. We could be ten times the size. So I'm just trying not to get distracted. Personally though, the next evolution of me is how can I be a better father? How can I spend more time with my family? How can I spend more time with my parents, my sister, my wife's parents? I spent too many of my years just cranking it out and I still do. And.

Everyone tries to optimize for net worth, but how do you put a price tag on watching your kids grow up?

Yeah.

How old are your kids right now?

I just have one. She is 16 months.

Oh, brand new.

Yeah. So when I look at that, like, you know, having more money isn't going to make me a happier person. But watching my daughter, playing with her, when I want, when I want is the key.

What I want is a huge plus. Now granted, during these times, due to Covid, there's restrictions, but other than that, like, I don't know, it's something big that I'm thinking about. Okay.

Yeah. I think the two, two things that popped into my head, and this is all about you, but my son just left home, he's 18 years old and he's in a forest right now with about 14 other kids with no phones. So your evolution is going to be like phones and technology and when you're going to say yes and no and the social media dilemma and what wise man told me, one of my mentors is he get 18 summers.

And that really profoundly rocked my world. I did my best to be as conscious as possible, be sure I knew my son, my son knew me. And for you and your daughter, you're at that great point where thinking like you are right now. It's beautiful to hear. So gay. I want you to take the next one here. I've got a couple more, but I want to go down another slightly different rabbit hole.

I'm glad you spoke to the family issue, Neil, because that was a big discovery of mine. When I was about your age, actually is, I realized that I'd been cranking so hard.

Since forever. Basically. I think I had my first little business in the neighborhood when I was like 8 or 9 years old. And I'd had one little business or another. And then I started writing books, and that led into other businesses. But when I was in mid-30s, I realized that I'd been cranking. And my daughter, at the time, I was beginning to.

Show signs that I wasn't paying enough attention to her. And so as she entered her teenage years, and that was a huge reshuffle for me. And so I'm really delighted to hear that you've made some of those discoveries already. And along those lines, in your personal evolution, your personal being a better father, being a good father, focusing on relationships, what have you learned on that side of life that also applies to how you operate in the business world?

So one thing I learned by being a better father is don't be afraid.

Don't be afraid to try new things. So I'm ocd. So, like, you know, we rented a beach house like a month ago, us and a few friends, and I took my daughter into the ocean for the first time. Me touching sand, there's issues, right? Like, I just don't do well with sand. But little things like that, seeing the smile on her face. Although technically, when I dipped her into the ocean, she didn't really smile, she cried.

But just having those experiences, it makes you realize that sometimes it's okay to do things that you don't like for the reward at the end and just keep pushing forward. And that's okay if you don't, you know, in most things in life, you're not going to like how you had to get to the end, and it's just being okay with that.

I've had to confront a few of those issues myself, and I've learned a lot from them. I have a few OCD issues, too. I don't like to get my hands wet in anything other than washing my hands. But it came to a time in my life when I decided I was going to just almost force myself to do kitchen stuff and learn how to put dishes in the dishwasher and take them out and do things that.

Got things onto my hands. And so it's taken a few years, but I got to the point now where it's almost like a meditation for me. Unloading a dishwasher or loading a dishwasher. After a lifetime of not touching stuff like that, it's been pretty big breakthrough for me.

That's amazing. And it's so funny. It's like these little things, learning how to do them. Like, for me, ironing is like meditating, and it's just really relaxing and peaceful and I can do it all day.

Yep, I do the same thing. I enjoy a little bit of ironing myself in our line of work. It's also good to have a few things that have right answers to them. You know, I live in a world where there's no right answers to anything. So it's good to have something like a shirt to get a wrinkle out of or a dishwasher to load. That gets me really focused and grounded.

Yep.

All right, I got another one for you. I'm going to go down a little bit of a tech rabbit hole with you, Neil, which is. I'm curious. Well, first of all, have you watched the Social Dilemma documentary yet?

I have not.

Okay. It's on Netflix and it's pretty interesting, but basically what it revolves around is they interviewed a whole bunch of founders of companies or people who wrote significant elements of code that have basically created.

The platforms that we have today, whether it's Facebook, Twitter, etc. And the design towards creating.

These platforms that are super addictive, etc, and, and the dangers. And it really was well done. You know, it's, it's. It. I, I'd say it goes so far as to say very science based, but they dramatized a little bit. My first impression was, ugh, I don't want to watch this. But once I started seeing it was. It was quite good.

Yeah, no, I'm familiar with what they talked about in the movie or in the documentary. I haven't seen it, but I know enough people who have watched it.

Okay.

All right, so my question is, you live in a world right now where your business is about building platforms, SEO, getting visibility, creating visibility. For the most part, it's businesses, corporate, there's individuals as well. And I'm curious.

Again, I'm going to ask you two separate questions. The first one, though, is what are your feelings about the right to be forgotten and the sophisticated usage of data collection and the changes going on and how.

You know, social is affecting politics, the world? You've got a young daughter and it Won't be long. And everyone in her class is going to have a smartphone. Our son was the last one to have one, but he literally, from ninth grade on, he couldn't do school without his phone in class. And you know, like, you know, you're, you're a bit younger than me, but when I grew up, and I'm sure for you too, freedom was a driver's license. Now it's your Snapchat account. And having time to communicate with your friends, your lens happens, your world happens inside that lens. So I'm curious, both as a business professional and a father, what your perspective is on, you know, sharing of data.

Right. To be forgotten. Some of these big things that are affecting society dramatically. And we live in an election year right now.

Yeah. So I definitely believe if you want to be forgotten, you should be able to be forgotten. It's your data, your life, you should be able to control it. Now keep this in mind. When you use these platforms, that service is free to you. Sure, they're making money off you, but keep in mind there's expense for you using that platform. So they have to figure out ways to make money. The big thing I tell people is no one's holding a gun to your head saying you have to be on Facebook, Snapchat, Instagram, or any of them. If you want to be forgotten, you want your data removed. They should make it where you can be removed and your data is yours. But you know, don't expect them to do everything you want when you're using their platforms because there's an expense for you being on there. And if you don't like it, don't use them. You can put down your phone. You yourself can control how often use Instagram. There's a lot of things that are addictive in this world, like drugs, for example, and yes, they're legal, but people still use them. You yourself are in control of your own decisions, and it's up to you if you want to make the ones that you'll be happy with or you're gonna do stuff that you won't be happy with.

Got it.

All right, I'm gonna ask one more techie question, Gabe, but I just want to find out if you've got something to interject here.

Well, actually, I was going to ask a techie question too. From a non techie personnel, Neil. What, what tools do you have or you use that you wouldn't be able to do without? As far as on the tech side.

Google Analytics is a huge one, helps track data. Google Data Studio.

It's your business intelligence tool. It's free Salesforce. Amazing sales tools. But those are some of the tools that we need for our organization. NetSuite amazing ERP solution.

All right, here's my next one, which is actually an add on to what Gay was talking about, which is. And I know you've got access, you see a lot of deals, a lot of platforms, a lot of tools. Some of them are great, some of them aren't. But what do you see as the next evolution between AI, machine learning, predictive tools, automated marketing? What are you excited about? Is there anything in particular that you're puttering around with or you see that or an evolutionary trend that you're super excited about?

Yeah. So.

The big thing that we're seeing is technology is going to start replacing humans. Even on the creativity side, believe it or not, we're seeing how AI. I've seen some software solutions that are coming out soon where.

They can write content, not that great, but it can also do the creative part.

And I think you're going to need less humans in the future for work, which is the shitty part. But I see that for the evolution is going due to technology. And I think you're going to see a big change in which there's going to be a lot of people without jobs from truck drivers to be working in restaurants and hospitality. I think so many things are going to be automated where you just won't need people. It's sad, but I really do believe that's a future what's going to end up happening.

All right, and you're talking about like GPT3 and specifically.

Yes, and they make it hard. He gets access to all that stuff, but still, I know people have access to it or already misuse.

For anyone who doesn't know what GPT3 is.

I believe it's OpenAI started with this, but it is a platform that can look at data, it can learn and it can write. And for general purposes, it looks pretty convincing.

If you start, go down the path, look for GPT3, just do a Google search, you'll learn more about it, but you're definitely seeing some trends there. All right, so I'm going to turn back to Gay here. Any other big questions that you want to ask before we wrap up with him?

Yeah. There's an old saying in developmental psychology that in your 20s, you experiment. In your 30s, you find your life, in your 40s, you build your life. You've built considerably big footprint already.

Where are you going in your 40s, what's left to build for you a.

Family, bigger family unit, spending more time with them, helping my kids thrive and succeed. I'm not talking about financial, but helping them thrive and succeed by just being good human beings and doing what they're passionate about and what they love.

A friend of mine, a comedian, used to say, there's no miracle about birth. The miracle is if you can raise a kid who doesn't talk in the movies.

That was Bill Hick.

Oh, that's great. I didn't know you knew Bill. Really?

Conversation sometimes.

Yeah, yeah, no, he's one of my favorites. And yeah. And again, I'm on the other side from you, Neil. And I will tell you, it's refreshing, first of all. And my goal was always make sure I know who my kid is. He knows me and we can talk. And just yesterday he came out of the forest where he's doing something called Knowles. I don't know if you've ever heard of that before. If you're familiar, you know who Jimmy Chin is. The climber. He's a Academy Award winning.

Guy. But anyway, really, really fast.

Free soul or something. The guy who climbs the Yellowstone or Yosemite.

Yeah, that's the movie that scared the.

Crap out of me.

He did it and then it was hilarious because when he was giving his speech, he was talking about when he climbed up, people, you know, just like, how long did it take? Like they thought he hiked up. Right? Or something like that. Or that could have been one of the different mountains or cliffs or whatever you climb. But it was hilarious. It was scary though at the same time because like, I don't want my kid to do. That's too risky.

Totally terrifying. So here's the tie in with Jimmy Chin. This is kind of a weird little thing, but it turns out he's from my hometown in Minnesota and he went to school with my brother until seventh grade, my youngest brother. And he's a spokesperson for an organization called Knowles N O L S. So my son is away for 80 days in the wilderness with no phone, 13 other people. And he just yesterday. And he's been out for about 40 days or so now, so he's halfway through. This is hiking, climbing, rappelling. They're doing a fast, a 72 hour survival fast solo. And the point of all this is he's having a genuine coming of age experience and a little bit of dark night of the soul. He's being pushed to his physical limits. And. And the tie in again is like you're in this wonderful place where you get to shape what's going on as best you can because they all have big personalities, you know, your daughter, I'm sure, is. If she's anything like you, you're gonna. You're gonna meet your match if you haven't already.

So I'm.

I.

You know, if you project yourself beyond and think about.

You know, how you want to think about your legacy, have you given that any thought right now in terms of what's rolling around in your head? Beyond. I'm going to grow a bigger family.

Not really. I don't worry too much about legacy. I don't really care what people think about me when I'm gone. I know that sounds bad. I believe in just doing the best you can, try to be the best person and, you know, however people perceive you, great. I just live life to the fullest, enjoy it, whether it's with friends, business, family. Put in 110%. And then on the flip side, like I said, if people are happy with you for that, great. If they're not, so be it. You can't please everyone just along the way. Don't try to burn bridges and don't try to do stuff that's unethical.

Right on. Couldn't agree anymore. So, Gay, before we wrap it up, anything else that you want to ask or.

I really just wanted to appreciate you and salute you, Neil, for having come a long way in a really short period of time, and I really wish you well on the rest of your explorations, and I hope you stay in touch with us.

Sounds good. Thank you guys for having me.

Yeah, you got it. Appreciate you very much. And for anyone who wants to learn more about Neil, you look at his name, just head over to neilpatel.com is there anywhere else that you'd like to send folks to share?

That's it.

All right, well, here's the way. I'll wrap this episode up for everyone else who's watching, which is if you've enjoyed it, make sure that you like you comment, and of course, subscribe. And if you are listening to this podcast from Apple, itunes, go over, make sure that you comment, share, and leave a message for Gay and me. We do pay attention to and listen to and read. And of course, there's bigleafpodcast.com so, my name is Mike Koenigs. I'm here with Neil Patel. It's been a great pleasure and Gay, thank you very much.

Well, I'm just looking in the chat column over here, and Suzanne is saying, neil, keep being you. So I'd say the same thing. Neil, keep being you. We appreciate it.

All right, thank you, guys. And thank you, Suzanne. Bye.

Bye.

Sam.