The Plant Medicine Episode

Hey, this is Mike Koenigsen. Welcome to the Plant Medicine episode of the Big Leap podcast with Gay Hendricks. Gay. This is a big one. We really dive into some wacky stuff this time.

Yes. And in some ways this is our most vulnerable one yet because we talk about some things that are not often talked about in situations like this. So I really want people to tune in and see where you go with this because it's very controversial material. Join us for the Big League podcast.

All right.

Foreign.

Hello and welcome to the Big Leap podcast with Gay Hendricks and Mike Koenigs. I'm Gay Hendricks and we have a sizzler for you today, Mike. Let's tell us a little bit about it.

Well.

About a week ago today, I did something that I never thought I'd do. It's an experience called 5MEO DMT. And the best way to put this is imagine if you could completely and totally connect with God or whatever you call the highest being, and experience the deepest and most profound sense of love and connection. And then on the way out.

Experience or witness what would be like the Big Bang. And as you reemerge, in other words, what is happening is you are completely egoless and in a total state of union. And then when you return, it's as if you were trying to pour an entire planet into a thimble because of the. You experience the universe in all its complexity, all of its awe, all of its terror. And as you re emerge, it's like your spirit is reuniting with your body. And I can remember at that moment, probably the most profound second that, or at least emergence, was I heard this blood curdling primal scream that was like.

Just this from head to toe. And I realized it was me. It was my body screaming in. And terror isn't the right word because it was awe. It was a combination of terror and awe. And we can go as deep as you want on this, but it was as I sobbed, as I cried and I laughed and I cried and I laughed. I had never felt so much divine love and connection than I had at that moment.

Well, if you haven't already figured out, our topic today is plant medicine. And so everything we're talking about today is buried deeply in nature. And a lot of people are kind of inviting it out now. And so there's a tremendous reawakening of psychedelics and entheogens and other plant based materials that.

Is resurging right now. And just to set my own context, how I plug into all this, it's been a while Since I've done that particular medicine, I was sort of involved in the first go around of psychedelics back in the 60s and early 80s and that was the last time I took that particular medicine. I still remember it very vividly but obviously since you've been more recently with it, you have a lot more fine grained detail on it. So I want to focus.

So to start at the beginning though, what were you looking for when you did that? Because everybody's got different reactions to plant medicine. Some people really avoid that kind of thing and some people really embrace it. But why were you into it.

There? There wasn't any one reason. I think one is if I really go back to a dark place when I was 18, so I never did chemicals at all. And first of all I want to just say I don't regard 5 Meo DMT as a drug. It is a profound sacrament if there ever was something that was divinely.

Created and, and we'll talk even more about the origin of what it is and where it comes from. But I have a couple friends, they're very, very.

You know who they are, gay. They're what I would regard as very conscious, high frequency human beings have done any, a lot of emotional work who had been telling me about this for quite some time. And I was frankly just scared because When I was 18 I tried smoking weed and it sent me in a absolute pit of terror in hell that still to this day I still have some bad trauma associated with it mentally. So I just stayed away from anything, even what was considered plant medicine, which is a very different thing. But again to the uneducated mind who doesn't know the difference between a drug, a recreational drug, something that's spiritual, like an ethnogen, et cetera.

I didn't, I didn't have the ability to discern. But I also didn't want to trigger an old trauma. And for whatever reason I had felt as though this year I had reached a point in my life where I felt like psychologically was prepared and I had been really feeling much more love and connection and depth. And I feel more as though I've reached a state in my masculinity as a man, really understanding what courage and emotions and deep connections and love and, and authenticity and also being fully present and vulnerable means. And I felt like this would be a step. And it was also set in setting where this took place on Native American burial grounds in New Mexico. There's. Is it pentaglyphs, petroglyphs, whatever the rock petroglyphs Petroglyphs on rocks that are dated over 6,000 years old at this location. And the experience took place underneath a multi centuries old cottonwood tree that was massive. So it was surrounded by doctors, MDs and.

Shaman who are very, very experienced in the substance. So I felt like I was in good hands, surrounded by proper care before and after and, and, and I just wanted to explore what I had heard of and I had done the research on the substance. A lot of people talk about it now like Joe Rogan talks about it all the time. Certainly Tim Ferriss has I going to Burning man for years. It's, there's some big groups like Maps, which is an association of. That does work with psychedelics and has done profound work on the benefits of it and how it's helped people. It was like again I think timing plus preparedness.

And tell us a little bit about the process.

All right, well we'll get into the origin of the substance in a moment except to say that it. I'll give you the basics for any anyone who hasn't heard of it before. And this is like the first thing you're like, what in the hell? But it is, it comes from a Sonoran toad that emerges every nine months or so and it has a toxin on it. It's the only animal ethnogen other than humans that produce DMT that are known of.

And this substance is dried, it's excreted from the toad, done very humanely and safely. These toads actually like to be quote unquote, they call it milking where it's sort of like being, having a zip popped but to the, the important part of the experience. I know it's sort of like it weirds out the whole experience right away, but it's. People are always like where does this come from? And how could it possibly be? But anyway, it's smoked typically in a glass pipe and it's a very small substance. You're there in this particular case when it's done in a, a proper setting, the shaman will sit with you, instruct you. And in our case we said a prayer which is a prayer of self forgiveness, of forgiveness of connection, of really being divinely connected. And for those who are not spiritual or religious, it can be whatever you want it to be. But then you, you inhale this and then someone holds you and you fall backwards, you relax in and suddenly you move towards what some people would say is the light. It's similar to a death experience. And there are many who say that upon death DMT is released from your brain and your body. And what a lot of people experience is like you see a lot of fractals. I didn't. I just saw a very pink white orangish light, a glow. And just then I.

Just felt myself melt away. And they call that ego death by some, but it's this total release of self and it's as if you're being bathed and you dissolve and you experience the closest thing to.

It's a type of an ecstasy. It's not orgasmic, but just pure union and connection and gratitude and.

Way beyond what you could ever experience from love, from another human being or a person or a child or fame or achievement or money.

There's.

It's. It's so unearthly and it's very common to experience Om, which is the creation tone, which as I started researching this there, there is a. It wasn't long ago, I don't remember the name of the researcher discovered the ohm frequency which was 40.

Octaves deeper than the lowest tone humans can perceive. But it's a B flat frequency. The.

And I just remember this. It's. It. It's beyond a feeling. It's not something the your human senses can relate to. Although it felt strangely familiar. It was as if I was experiencing a. Forever that I've always known. And you know, some would call it God's love, but it was in incredible. And I know if you've ever watched Star Trek before, there were some episodes where they talk about the Nexus, the union with the Nexus. And it's. I'll tell you one thing, as you come out of this, you immediately start connecting a lot of spiritual writings and realize that for centuries, for millennia, man has pursued this connection. It's. It is absolutely beautiful. So that's what I would call the Phase one. And for a lot of people, you don't remember anything. I happen to remember some things both going in and coming back though.

I was just thinking back to when I did it, which I believe now is in 1986. And I have a good friend who's a medical doctor and a psychiatrist who is still very much into that kind of thing and very involved in the psychedelic movement as far as helping moving the ideas of psychedelia over into the mainstream for people even who are not interested in taking the medicine. But I remember it being. I remember the light part, the kind of like surrendering to light. And I remember afterwards there was this vibration.

That sort of came out of nowhere and vibrated my whole body. And it seemed like it went on for ages. And the reason I remember that so vividly is my friend and his wife were there, my doctor friend. And they had a little girl at the time who was about 18 months old and just a wonderful little girl. And as I was standing there after I got back up, I was standing there just vibrating in my body for a long time and kind of making these sounds that felt good to make these sort of sounds that you have to make. And I don't know how to put it. They're not voluntary. You just have to open your mouth and make this sound that's already happening. As I was doing that, she came into the room and walked past, and she pointed at me and said to her, daddy, he's really happy. And I will always remember that. She's now about 35 years old, I think. But I remember the. I don't remember all the grainy details of what you're talking about, but I do remember this expansive light. And I also wanted to mention another thing that happened to me on another occasion, which was.

As I was expanding, I realized a web of connection that connected everything in the world and that everybody's connected. I called it the web of the world. At the time, long before the World Wide Web was popular, I remember having this thing I called the web of the world. And what it was was that everything is connected. And as we learn and go through life, you come to places where only. You can only move through them and evolve. If you're open to love, letting love in and letting love out. So each of those little juncture points have to be negotiated with love. And it sounds like you were crossing into that same territory yourself.

Yeah, I. I think so. If we go into the. My intuitive scientific mind here, and I've done a ton of research after this experience now, which.

Really quickly ventures into quantum physics, quantum mechanics, and a lot of work that scientists are doing right now, I. I will just simply boil it down and suggest that love is the single carrier frequency that.

Exists inside the universe. My number one takeaway walk away. As I emerged from this, as I sobbed, I cried, I laughed, I cried, I sobbed. And I remember turning to the shaman and I said, this should be available to everyone who wants it to experience. Because it's so. So profound. But what I believe to be true, especially after this, and I believe what sacred writings going back to many millennia of. Of virtually every religion, what they've dialed into is first of all, matter and time.

When combined.

Are, you know, at. We'll call it the speed of light. Okay. In other words, we Are all stardust living on star light. I think Carl Sagan said something along those lines. But something that is faster than light is mind. And there's little mind and then there's the big mind. Big mind meaning God or creation, universe. All that is, all that has been the let there be light, and even before there was light. Okay?

And I believe what science is figuring out right now with the Higgs boson and all of the physicists that are collaborating is once we crack and understand that which is faster than light, which is mind, we will discover that every particle of the universe is in fact like a world wide web. We live inside a fractal universe. And that the hologram we're experiencing right now, the thing we call reality and self, is mind.

Which.

When it.

Is aware.

And experiences both light and matter and manifests into this impossible, absolutely impossible thing called human beingness, or human life, is a hologram. It's a projection of mind, experiencing time, matter, love, sex, identity, self. We're expressions of God that's really in the universe, is an expression of itself. It is this absolutely interconnected web. And now I, I can not just comprehend it. I felt it on a very visceral level that we do in fact create our own reality. It explains the concept of prayer and how we can manifest our, our combined minds, our individual minds. The little M that is an ego mind.

Has the power to manipulate matter, light, time and experience union with creator, the big M. And so that was a big, big. Like it just became absolutely obvious and aware. And now I believe that science and mysticism, spirituality is all connecting and catching up with itself. And we're within moments of a new big bang, which is the realization. And I also had another big realization, but I'll go down that one after you comment a little bit. I had a huge awakening about AI this morning and the web we live in. In other words, the man made web.

I also wanted to mention that our episode is about plant medicine because that particular medicine that comes from the frog foam is also in nature in other ways, like in ayahuasca and mushrooms and things, certain kinds of mushrooms. So it's available in plant medicine. It's just, I guess, particularly easier to access out of this particular way of making it.

Yeah. 5 Meo DMT. The entire experience lasts depending on the person and the dose, between 15 and 30 minutes. It is very, very fast. Most people who are experienced in this space would say it's the rocket ship. And really everyone I've talked to about it where ayahuasca can last for, you know, hours. And it's a different experience. It's. And it can be. And I, I don't have experience, so I'll just stop there. I, I have a lot of friends, a lot of shaman who I've spent a lot of time with, as well as there's.

Lots and lots of, there's ibogaine, there's lots of other substances. I think this one is unique in its purity. And then there is also a synthetic 5 Meo DMT that is more easily accessible as well.

I've tried both of them back in the day, the one that comes from frogs and the one that's synthesized and I found the synthetic one actually a faster, smoother ride than the frog ones.

Or the toad. Yeah, toad, yes. I remember what the shaman said after.

I smoked the dried toad foam. Like you, I fell over backwards. That's part of the charm of the thing. People are sitting there waiting for you to kind of go over backwards. And I remember being out there in outer space for about 20 or 15, 20 minutes and then sitting back up. And I remember the shaman looked at me and he said, toad likes you.

I will say, knowing this experience now as I do, and one thing I will tell you, I, I've said this for years, I can tell, I meet people now, I look in their eyes and I can tell who's done the work. You can see a certain clarity of someone who's done five meo. It says if there's a filter in through the eyes to the soul that has been lifted. There's an awareness, there's a love, there's a consciousness and an empathy. And I, I will say.

Now, first of all, I don't believe in mandatory anything, but if there were something that could be mandatory, I don't think any, should anyone should be allowed to serve as a politician or any place of power without having done this work, meaning deep plant medicine. Because what it does to open up your heart and your sense of empathy and your awareness and consciousness and feel the interconnectedness.

I read in this, this book, it's called the Tryptamine palace, that during the 60s.

And there's a lot of really interesting, fascinating work of what happened during the days of, of government sponsored LSD research and Timothy Leary and you can get into all sorts of conspiratorial stuff, but the awakening, awakening in Western culture of our connectedness with Earth, with animals, with our environment is a lot of, it had to do with, with a lot of this work. And you look at the connectedness that Native Americans have. You can understand how a lot of plant medicine different definitely affected their belief systems.

So if I may, I have one other observation that I experienced that I've been thinking about since this, which is a moment ago. We talked about the world wide web and then the universal web as you described it, and you really feel that and experience it. But this was what I woke up with this morning and I've been thinking a lot about doing this interview with you, gay. And it was that the web we have right now, the, the man made web, the Internet.

And what also is going to extend into the problem with artificial intelligence? Okay, so the beauty of nature is it's fractal in nature. In other words, it resembles itself. It's this beautiful pure thing that has existed for as long as it's existed. The problem with the world wide web is it's not driven by great values, by purity. And the problem with the web, if you think about it, is in social media news, is it's people saying, I like you. And it's not they like you because of your values or your purity, it's because of something else. It's egoic in nature. And I realized that there's a fatal flaw with artificial intelligence is that it's learning based upon human behaviors and human likes. Not that which is based upon strong values, pure values, that which serves the greater good necessarily. In other words, if we've really got to look at the rules and the constructs and what's going on right now, especially in the day we live in with facial recognition, true oppression. And I would go so far as to say cancel culture is a new form of fascism, as is most of what you see in, in the political climate as well as the racial climate. You don't like me, I'll cancel you.

Left.

Pardon me?

Right or left?

Yeah, yeah. Both of them are equally fascist.

And impure in terms of their value system. And I really have been resting with that, at least contemplating it and feeling my way through it. And so again, we can go in a multitude of directions here, but what I really appreciated about this experience was the return to a universal intuition and relying on that and also recognizing that this is an, a valid science. Now, it's got its flaws, in other words, it's still subject to my egoic interpretation and my past traumas and whatever else I apply on top of it. But I'll give you one other thing that was fascinating to me, would deserve an episode of its own. But apparently going back around six millennia, when the vedas were being written.

By the early Hindus. They talk in the early in their scriptures about soma, which I've read those scriptures. You have. Okay, so they are. That is believed to have been a type of an ethnogen, most likely dmt, like the concoction, the formulation has been lost because it was only passed on orally. And many other tribes and peoples have had their own ethnogens. The Egyptians certainly did, the Greeks certainly did.

And if you go back in time, Terence McKenna talks about the stoned ape theory, which was that early primitive hominids pre man. What bridged the gap? What actually gave us language, reason and thought were these hominids were eating what are known now as most likely mushrooms, psilocybin or psilocybin like, which enhanced their sight, their ability to see, less likely to get killed by things. It enhanced their sense of community and connection and love, also their sex drive, which ultimately helped evolve into what is known as man today. And if you go back to the early use of ethnogens by the Vedas, imagine being able to do controlled use of these substance where you'd go into the light, you'd spend some time there, you'd come back with what is effectively universal knowledge, a download from creation, from the universe, and be able to sort that and organize it. And that's what early primitive religions basically were. At least that's my interpretation of it now. And so millennia of the early Vedas were very likely downloads from ethnogens, being able to commune and communicate with God.

I very much agree. I've particularly studied the Rig Veda, where most of that stuff is. And the Rig Veda is broken down into sort of chapters, which they call mandalas. And in the 9th and 10th mandala, there's a lot.

Like invocations saying, pour soma through the filter, express it into the waiting gourd. And so there's a lot of instructions that look like they were preparing some kind of derivative of mushrooms. I know psilocybin mushrooms grow up in the area where the vedas were originally cognated. And also there's another variety of mushroom that lives up there too. So they had ready access to that kind of thing plus.

Power. This too, up in that part of the world is where, you know, hashish and a lot of other places, things like that got invented up there in Kashmir, in the upper part of India, in those valleys up there. And so I think there's a lot of ancient evidence for all sorts of different cultures partaking in entheogens as well as other kinds of psychedelic material. And Terence McKenna was a dear friend of mine, and I had many, many conversations with Terence, especially back during the 80s.

I didn't know you were buddies with him. Wow.

Amazing human being. He was about as stoned when he wasn't stoned as he was when he was stoned, but when he was stoned, he was really something. And he was one of the great illuminators of this particular, particular field, I think. And.

I've spent many happy hours with him. Interestingly enough, I got seated next to him at a dinner somewhere way back in the 80s, where he was speaking at a conference and I was speaking at the same conference, and we just happened to be sitting next to each other at a dinner. And that's how I got to know him. And probably about somewhere around maybe 1982 or something like that.

Wow.

Wow.

So I'm.

Curious, from yours, your perspective, if you look back at your.

Journeys, have you had any other big revelations that stand out in your mind that you.

That have affected you over the decades, over the years that you take away and you still have integrated into your life?

One really big one, which is that when you get stuck in any way, whether it's mentally stuck or emotionally or whatever, the only way out really is to love it the way it is first. And so I use that insight as a clinical insight constantly with people, that one of the human frailties of the human mind, one of the failings of the human mind is the tendency to jump out into the future or get locked up back in the past, but to actually land yourself in the moment and love whatever's there. That was the big insight that came from my early experiences, both with plant medicines and with other things like lsd. And.

My daughter once asked me if I. If I took any drugs during the 60s. And I said. I said I can't remember because of the ones I took in the 70s, but I know there were a few back there. I was never interested in the kind of downer drugs, like street drugs or anything like that. The only ones I've ever done have to do with these kinds of mind manifesting, meditations or medications. And.

I think that insight about love is the one that comes underneath all of them, because that was the same insight I had when I did mdma, what they now call Ecstasy or Mali. It was available in very pure form back around 1980, before they made it illegal. And so I did that many times and even did that with therapy groups because it was. I was part of a group of people that were testing out all of that on groups of people and very valuable work. And then the government went and made it illegal, I think, in 1986.

And so, yeah, yeah, well, there's impure street stuff was abused and, you know, people died. And it's another one of those clearly misunderstood tools. But, you know, yeah, yeah, the wrong guys get involved. Well, here's another question I have for you, and it's something that I. This is officially the first time I've ever talked publicly about any work I've done like this, and I think it's the first time we've hinted upon it in this podcast. But how have you dealt with judgy behavior? Misunderstanding from others in the business community and neutralizing it and creating.

Understanding. And, and from that, I'll, I'll say that I, I have, I, I, I'm not sure this, I may have some clients, for example, that if they heard this, they'd be like, nah, I don't want to do business with you because blah, blah, blah, and others would be super attracted to it. Like, as I've gone on and I've had private conversations with some of my clients, they told me that if they knew that I was doing this level of work, they would have worked with me even sooner. And we, again, we live in this time where there's a lot of polarity. And those who have taken the time to understand this, like, I don't know one person who's done the work with it, who, who hasn't said.

It'S been the most satisfying, powerful work of their lives. And in many cases, they've said it's been the most terrifying. And I will say that afterwards, I am much more aware of what I'm afraid of and the prisons inside my own mind that keep me trapped. I'm acutely aware, just in the past week, I've really been noticing my old fear patterns that have held me back for decades. And I'm really.

I'm excited to take them on just as much as I am terrified and at another time, I'll talk to you about that. But I want to get back to how do you neutralize the judgy behavior from a business community? Those who are like, what's this have to do with business and life and success and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

I remember I get a lot of my philosophy from something that I read one time back in 1969, Bob Dylan did an album called Nashville Skyline. You probably have heard of it or heard it, big popular album. Well, they wanted to put Bob Dylan. Some people wanted to put Bob Dylan in the Nashville country hall of Fame. But there was a big controversy because they said he's a folk singer, he's not a country singer. But everybody said, hey, it's Bob Dylan, and he's done a country song. Let's put him in the.

And so they called Eddie Arnold, who was kind of at the time the elder country, you know, sort of the, I don't know, Garth Brooks of his time, the most popular one. And they called him and they asked him what he thought and he said, well, I say, let him in. And they said, well, why? He said, why? Because I'm old and rich and don't give a damn. And so I remember reading that when I was. I got you in my 20s probably, and I thought that's a pretty good way to live your life. As if you're old and rich and don't give a damn. Because, you know, if you look back 2000 years ago, one of humanity's great self help books was written, which is the sayings of Epictetus. And Epictetus was a fascinating guy that had a lot of amazing things to say. But one thing is the first line of his sort of, his self help book was the secret of happiness is knowing that some things are within your control and some things are not. Focus on the ones that are within your power to control. So I don't spend a lot of my time thinking about what other people think of me or anything like that. I probably did, you know, a long time ago. But another thing Winston Churchill said, when you're 20, you're extremely concerned about what people think of you. And when you're 40, you get less concerned with what people think of you. When you get to be 60, you realize they weren't thinking of you anyway. And so, you know, why worry about it? So I think the only thing we really owe our clients is to present the most authentic version of ourselves. In fact, in my seminars, I tell my advanced students if there's anything that you're not willing to stand up in the middle of Yankee Stadium and say to 60,000 people over the microphone, that thing has got a grip on you, whatever it is. And I will happily stand up in front of 60,000 people and have and tell them everything I know about this subject. Because I think that human beings owe each other our authenticity. And if we can give each other our authenticity, that binds us together in a certain way, that allows us to transcend all the ego manipulations that people get into. In Politics and that kind of thing.

Yep. Couldn't agree with you more. And I know that's something. Now I have an 18 year old and for the past two years he's been a little terrified because he'll say, but what if so and so thinks. And I go, don't care, don't care what anyone thinks and not even a little bit. So. And I, I, I do appreciate that. But I love, I love the context that you shared and I think.

I love that. Which is just focus on the ones who love you and who are attracted to this journey. Which does bring us to. I have two other things to bring into this conversation. One of them is a little disclaimer which is please don't reach out to Gay and I and ask about sources or resources for this substance. And we're not necessarily advocating any behavior there. The laws governing plant medicines vary. They are in some cases legal, in some cases not legal. And well, we're not attorneys, we don't play them on TV or the Internet, nor are we therapists as far as you're concerned. So here's what I will tell you. When you are ready for something like this, it will find you and so will the communities that have it accessible and available. And that's what I would leave it with. But any requests for, like I say, for sourcing referrals, that kind of thing will be ignored. And I say that out of love. Yeah, out of love and out of liability. Anything you want to add on that guy?

I actually have been out of it for quite a while out of that particular field, so I've sort of lost contact with a lot of the folks. But anyway, I think everybody gets the picture about that. Now we want to devote another episode at a future occasion to some other elements of this and hopefully it'll be of interest to you. And for right now, got any last minute things you'd like to say fresh from the fields of psychedelia and antigens that you'd like to tell the world?

Yeah, well, I think one of them is this. One of the things that you and I have talked about, Gay, is we have put together.

Something we call the big leap Year. It's a once in a lifetime opportunity to work with Gay and I. And one of the things that he, that you and I have talked about is.

In the big leap year, it's all about a way to connect with a group as well as the two of us on a journey that goes far beyond your normal business. And this is.

Mystery Mystique, Multi Spectral Prismatic union of energy and spirit, and not only working with the science of success and profound shifts and changes and ungluing and unblocking where you are in your life, but also connecting on a very deep, soulful level and exploring and talking about the topics that we discussed today, some of the things that are sometimes off limits to the traditional business world but are really, really valuable. So I would encourage you, if this resonates with you, this message and this idea. We're taking applications right now to work with us for the big leap year, which is going to be starting either, right before, towards the end of this year. So the place to go is bigleappodcast.com apply. But, Gabe, anything else that you'd like to talk about in terms of the right kind of visionaries who want to reach breakthrough velocity and achieve the greatest things and also your views on why we're doing this?

Well, one of the things that I've been interested in for a while is gathering a community of people who are really willing to turn up the volume on their openness to learning. Here at the Hendricks Institute, we have a, a 10 degree, a 10 scale about openness to learning. One of them is being at the bottom, is being very close to learning. You know, convince me. You got to show me. And then up At a number 10, though, are people who are wide open to learning. They're here on this earth to learn as much as they possibly can. And this is their passion. And that's how I am, and that's how you are, Mike. And that's the kind of people we want joining us for this. So if you're a 10 on that wide open to learning scale, or maybe even 11 that we can learn from, go apply over@bigbigleaf podcast.com right on.

And, and I think something else that Gay and I talked about is, as you heard today, I didn't even know gay new Terrence McKenna. If you know who he is or haven't researched him before, check him out. But between Gay and I, we've got a massive, massive database of connections, resources, relationships that we're going to draw into this experience as well. We're going to open up our network and connections and bring in great spiritual leaders of today and in the past who will bring value, intellectual value, spiritual value, connected value into this experience as well. And it's something, I'm excited about, opening that up. But this is unique. It's going to be a blend of breakthroughs on every level you can imagine, whether it's building your personal value as well as breaking through a challenges that you're standing in the way and combining gays decades of wisdom and knowledge as.

Psychologist and as a therapist and working with thousands, tens of thousands of people and well, whatever it is that I do as well, we'll combine those two and.

Our goal is just to create an incredible big leap year for you. So anything else before we wrap up this episode?

Gay.

Can'T think of anything. Well, I frequently describe you as the smartest guy I know. And I know you know some people that you describe as the smartest guys you know and the smartest women you know. And so I'm very interested in spreading out through our various networks. In fact, I want to do a whole conversation sometime on how to tune up your network basically so that you're relating to the highest quality people.

I love that. I'm going to make a note of that and we'll definitely hit that in an upcoming episode. So. Well, we'll officially bring this episode home. I hope you got something out of it. It's. I felt a little vulnerable and. But I feel great now because I've been thinking about this like crazy for a week. Just anticipating the conversation. I want to thank you as usual, Gay for another great episode and for you at home or wherever you're listening to this, make sure you like it. You know someone who could benefit from this experience? Share it with them and leave us some stars. Leave us, leave us a rating and a review. Oh, and there's one last thing which is for the latest show notes and link you can always text us there. You can actually send messages to Gay and me. It's at 858-434-5316. It's 858-434-5316. You can text BL to that and you'll get a specific big leap message from Gay and me. So that's what we got for you. Thanks for listening. Thanks for watching.

Thanks.