How a train ride led to a healthier beer, and why community is the secret sauce 🍻| Harvey Armstrong & Sam Holmes (Prime Time)

I have that exact saying tattooed on my arm here, "No success without sacrifice," in Latin. So I know it well. And it's something I look at daily and I say, to get what we want to get to and the heights we're trying to achieve and the ambitions we have, there's 100% going to be sacrificing, quite steep sacrifices along the way. And I think they come in so many different forms.

This week's Millennial Masters are Sam Holmes and Harvey Armstrong. The duo behind Prime Time, a beer brand that's changing the game with its healthier, more inclusive take on everyone's favorite brew. You might know them from Made in Chelsea and social media, where they brought their entrepreneurial story to life, capturing the ups and downs of launching a business. Being real not only earned them a loyal fan base, but also helped them raise over £1 million through crowdfunding, transforming fans into investors. In this episode, we'll find out their unexpected beginnings and how a shared 24-pack of beers sparked a vision. Resilience in the face of setbacks and how they adapted after their first brewery went bust. And the power of transparency. How building in public strengthened their brand and community.

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Sam, Harvey, welcome to Millennial Masters. So before social media and before reality shows, you two met on a train with a 24-pack of beers. How did that turn into the idea for Prime Time and the partnership you two guys have today?

Yes, it was a boy on a train situation. So yeah, Sam and I kind of had quite, I guess what you could call fate if you look back. Um, but yeah, we met on the train. I was at Newcastle Uni going up, going up to Newcastle at the time, but I worked kind of a hybrid role where I was working down in London part-time, up and down a lot of the time. And then Sam was obviously on, on route to see some mates up there. Um, it was kind of a go-to university for a fun night out. And then yeah, met him on the train going down to the bar to get myself a beer. Saw this man with 24 beers on his lamp. It was like, that is my kind of girl. I'm a uni student trying to save quid, so I was like, hey, come on, you can spare one or two, can't you? And anyway, we cracked a beer open and kind of got to know each other and realized we had loads of mutual mates. And then we bumped into each other again on the second weekend down back then in London in the club, which Sam used to work in sort of promotions and nightlife. And then on the third consecutive weekend down in Oxford Brookes, we bumped into each other again at 2 AM at a house party. And it was just one of those moments where it's so weird, like, do we converse, mates? Haven't met before, and then 3 weekends in a on the trot. Um, and it was really because we had a mutual sort of love for beer, very active social lives, love going out and about, you know, talking to people, and, uh, into our sort of sports and health and quite attuned to, you know, our fitness. We fast forward 5, 6 years from, from meeting, our worlds then collided again to start Prime Time, um, with that mission to kind of create a beer that's better for you and that you can live that more sustainable, balanced lifestyle, um, and go out and not have to reduce the amount of social times you have, but yeah, do it in a more enjoyable way.

What drove you to create a beer that's also healthier, tasty, and with an energy kick? What's the idea behind it?

So the, I guess the first, uh, idea was the caffeine-infused product. That was our, our kind of, uh, our little baby to start with. And, you know, the idea from that came from, like Harvey mentioned too, very active and sociable guys, and we're beer drinkers through and through. We drunk beer from start to finish. And we noticed that our friends are all drinking espresso martinis and vodka Red Bulls and Jägerbombs, Ca Pi Petrone. So there was a clear sort of consumer need for and demand for caffeine and alcohol. We were super surprised that lager being the most commonly consumed, you know, alcoholic beverage, it was, it was a shock to us that it hadn't been done before. So That's what we started working on. And then, yeah, COVID kind of happened and the world got locked away and the world has never been more health conscious. People were really starting to look at what they were eating and what they were drinking. COVID went two ways for people, didn't it? It was either some of an awakening where they were got super fit, super healthy and all the other way, but the sort of common denominator was when we left, we wanted to be in tune with our bodies and people doing Couch to 5K, Fitbits. Everyone was buying a Whoop band. That hour meant the world to everyone. So yeah, calories were going onto menus in pubs, but people were then undoing all their sort of hard work and, you know, sensible eating with, you know, over-consuming in the beer space. So we looked at each other and said, why don't we create a product that is, you know, all-encompassing and, you know, and something that everyone could get on board with, which was low calorie, low carb, gluten-free, and vegan. And it's, you know, it appeals to the health-conscious mindset. It appeals to the people that want to become a bit more health-conscious. It appeals to women that potentially don't drink beer because they think it's bloating or it's, it's, you know, fattening from the calories. And again, from like people our dad's age that have been drinking the same beer for 30 years and starting to get a bit of a beer belly and their wives are telling them to, to wind it in. But yeah, kind of a whistle-stop tour of, of how we came up with the idea and and the thinking behind it.

How did you get from idea to the final product with nothing like this out there? What was the R&D process like? There must have been a bit of trial and error to also nail the taste, right?

Absolutely. I think, um, you know, our first primary goal was to taste, uh, first, you know, no one wants to compromise a drinking experience, um, especially in the beer space. It's all about that first sip. And you know, that was our first primary motive, nail the taste and then, you know, infuse it with caffeine. And then for the low calorie side, you know, what can we remove from the beer that's, that's unnecessary, doesn't have to be there. Um, so yeah, it was 2 and a half years of developing. Um, we sort of trial and errored in, in a number of breweries. Um, you know, trying to get the caffeine, the natural added caffeine powder to sort of sit soluble and not detract from, you know, the, the flavor profile, the sort of carbonation, you know, the, the shelf life. And then we actually used R&D sort of specialists, so, you know, guys in lab coats to kind of look into the science a bit more. And, you know, while we were kind of developing the recipe and the flavor and the base of the beer itself, of which we're gonna infuse with caffeine. So yeah, the 2.5 years sort of in the background, behind the scenes, pre-launch to the market. And yeah, nailing the taste was our primary mission and we've sort of gone further and exceeded our expectations on that actually. We've sort of won multiple awards now, Great Taste Awards, gold, and Global Beer Masters. We've kind of surprised ourselves slightly, I'd say, um, gone over and above what we were aiming to achieve there.

How much trial and error was there involved? How much tasting did you have to do until you were happy with the, with it? Uh, I'm assuming quite a few, right?

Yes. A lot of, uh, a lot of trial and error, uh, a lot of fun, uh, along the way. Trying, trying beer and developing a beer is, is not the worst thing in the world. So, you know, it was a fun process, but yeah, you know, like Harvey said, sort of taste is the number one thing. So we weren't happy to release anything that wasn't, you know, sort of world-class beer. So yeah, many trials and errors, many late nights drinking, drinking beer, but all for the greater good. Daniel Ionescu.

During this 2.5 years of development, you also bootstrapped the business. How did you make it work in those early days?

We just using savings, using kind of personal finances, you can do quite a lot of bits on the cheap, I guess, in the development process until you launch to market and you start to scale up and, you know, in line with demand and whatnot. So, you know, we were resourceful, worked with mates who helped us with design work, we worked with the smaller scale breweries we could. That meant the volumes were lower. We just did all we could do to ensure that, you know, the cash we had stretched as far as it could, um, and the cash wasn't a lot. So, um, yeah, it was just being resourceful, putting the hours in instead of hiring people to put the hours in for you, and, you know, working with the right partners, I guess, to get things to, uh, you know, a marketable, sellable state, which we look back on now and it's so different to what the pan and the product well, actually the same thing we could, but they can, and just everything around the brand has just completely evolved in such an exciting way.

Speaking of production, I was reading a little bit about your journey and I understand you're outsourcing production, but it was never easy with your first producer actually going bust after the pandemic. How did you manage to rebound from, from that setback?

Yeah, that was quite a, that was quite a big one for us. We had, uh, yeah, we'd just launched and we'd found a, a good brewery, um, to work with and it was producing great beer for us and helped us really develop the, the recipe that we've got today. But, um, we'd just actually landed our biggest festival, so we'd just launched and, um, we managed to pull off a, a big festival in Cambridge, something like 20,000 people. And, uh, yeah, we, we soon realized that things weren't going well at the brewery when our beer wasn't, uh, getting delivered to the festival. So we actually called up our brewery and said, what's going on? We're at a festival here standing in the middle of a field. 20,000 people are about to arrive and there's no beer. And they said, well, we've got so much debt that our logistics company has actually held the beer hostage and it's not going to be released until they pay some of their debts off. So that was a pretty terrifying moment for me and Avi because we'd obviously put, you know, a lot of hard work into the build-up and we were about to launch a big festival and it hadn't arrived. We managed to sort of master brewer to get in his transit van and drive up and down the motorway, you know, 4 hours each way to bring the beer down. And we managed to pull off the festival. But after that, the brewery went into, into sort of administration, and that was that. So we had to, you know, bounce back quite, quite quickly. We, you know, we had picked up traction at the time. So we were already selling into pubs and bars in London and obviously at festivals. So it hindered a hindered us for, you know, a few months while we went searching for another brewery. But, um, you know, we've now got two up and running and about to open up a third. So, um, we've got sort of insurance policies, uh, running at any one time just so stuff like this doesn't happen again. But I think the bigger we've got, you know, we're now working with some of the best breweries in the UK that are very well known and, um, produce a lot of volume. It's not the biggest risk for us now, but you know, we've always got these, you know, backup plans just in case it happens again.

So that was an important lesson and learning from that process. So now you're continuing to outsource production, which I'm assuming is helping you scale much quicker. How has this model worked for you? And what did you learn from these challenges early on? That you can share with other entrepreneurs in this space?

Yeah, I think there's pros and cons to the model. It's the easiest way to get going, given it's less capital expenditure needed to invest in your own facilities and equipment. And so it allowed us to bootstrap the business from the beginning and launch it on the budget that we had. It does though mean you're at the kind of mercy of the supply chain side, which we found out the hard way. So it is really key to work with the right partners. That you have confidence in. And if you do then get that right, you're in a better position because they are the experts in the brewing space or in your supply side space. They're going to know it better than you are as kind of a brand owner, business builder, which we are. Beer lovers, but we're not beer makers. We work with the professionals to create the amazing recipe we have. So you've got, you know, you've got that outsourced knowledge that you can lean on. And yeah, and you can get the scale through that contract brewing model and, you know, in the contract supply model, you know, across other industries where you can just, you know, take your IP, your recipe, and then be able to build it elsewhere and grow and keep up the demand that we're, we're seeing. And that, you know, another entrepreneur might say, but as, you know, going back again, 100% would use the same model. I think, um, as we scale and we, and we grow to a bit more mature stage company, we'll, we'll look to bring our production in-house and, um, develop a bit of a kind of home for the brand. But for now, it's, it's the way to go for sure.

I wanted to ask you about your fundraising journey. You first bootstrapped for 2 and a half years to start with. And then you went on a fundraising journey, something that is super tricky for a lot of entrepreneurs and businesses, especially in the post-pandemic climate, and especially in a rather crowded market dominated by giants in which you operate as well. How did you find that process? You recently crowdfunded just over £1 million, right?

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the— guess, start from the beginning. The financing journey has been, yeah, a long road. But so first we raised from a very strategic partner as a big sort of whiskey business. So has got kind of great experience within the booze space and big operation, about 60 staff. So the reason we went with him and that team was that they've got on-hand experience, and also full developed HR teams, finance teams, etc., that we could lean on. So it was the right move for us at the time to go with those guys and lean on their sort of infrastructure as we were growing. And I guess what, you know, what me and Harvey sort of brought to the table was a unique product. It was, you know, it was something very new in the market. It was, you know, like you said, it's a very crowded market, the beer market, but you know, we're offering something so new and unique, you know, in the UK at least with the low calorie, low carb aspect. And also we came with, you know, social media firepower. We'd both been on Made in Chelsea, the TV show, and, you know, having that behind us as well was a massive add-on. You know, we didn't have the budgets to be spending hundreds of thousands on marketing, but what we did have is a TV show that kind of followed our progress and the conception and the growth of the business, which, you know, was paying sort of tenfold that in, you know, in terms of views and eyeballs. So I think it was a very unique proposition at the time and something that, you know, people could get excited by. And then really once we'd proven concept with that sort of first investment round, we did our second investment round and that was a lot of people that have been kind of watching from the sideline that went, oh, I don't want to dive in first round in case this doesn't go anywhere. But, you know, once we'd picked up the traction, you know, within our sort of network and previous careers, you know, had mixed with high net worths that, you know, were keen to jump in. So that was, that was that. And then again, just the round that we've just closed now was much the same, really. It was, you know, it's kind of that sort of FOMO now. It's a fear of missing out on something that's that's going well. We picked up traction and we're selling in football clubs and supermarkets and, you know, big pub groups now. So it's really, you know, establishing itself now. Yeah, it was exciting. And we're a very much culture-based business and community-based business. So that's why the CrowdCube was the way to go for us because people have followed our journey on the show and followed it off. And being in London, we're we're in sort of a tight-knit community of entrepreneurs that, um, we all know what each other are up to. So it was, uh, our way to sort of offer out a bit of the business to people that have been following us. So yeah, it was super successful and we kind of reached our target within a short space of time. Um, and now we've got 130 really devoted investors and, and lovers of the brand that are going to be going to Waitrose and buying our beers and into the pub. So yeah, it was, uh, important one for us this, this round to, to go out to the crowd and bring people in.

So you've had investor funding in the first round and then crowdfunding in the second one. What would you say are the key differences between them? And what did you do differently between the two rounds in order to achieve your goals? Again, a lot of entrepreneurs and business people in this space would be interested to know your learnings.

Well, I'd start with sort of the main difference being one's very public, one's private. Now, there are initial rounds with private individuals, angel investors, you know, it's one-to-one kind of pitching, it's one-to-one allowing them into your brand and speaking to them about it. It's versus kind of the crowdfund, it's you are exposing, you know, you're exposing yourself to the public domain and you do it in a more high-level approach, less granular approach again, and there's a sense of like anxiety with it perhaps, because it's like, you know, you let people under the hood, but secretly it's super exciting because it's bringing in, in that community piece that Sam spoke about. And it's, it's, it's super powerful. Everyone can share in that journey and share from the successes, hopefully. Yeah, that's the two biggest difference to me.

I mean, I think that, yeah, I think for me is the, the, in terms of the angel investors, these are people that we were sort of strategically picking and aligning that had got, you know, various experience within our industry or other entrepreneurs that had been on the same journey. So we were kind of handpicking the right investors to come on board. And, you know, has been amazing for us. We've got a great, you know, network of investors and board members that, you know, are made up of investors. So that's kind of the strategy play with angel investors. And then the crowd, you never know who's going to chuck in some money. So It's more a wide, wide approach. But again, it's— we had to wait for the right time. We had to wait for having the full sort of distribution across Waitrose and across Young's to sort of open it up to that many people to get involved, because then it really makes a difference. You know, there was no point in having a crowdfund when we were only in, you know, 10 bars in London. But now we're in hundreds of different points of sale. We can open it up for the masses to get involved.

Yeah, I think one last point for those listening to add is the difference is, you know, private, it comes a lot cheaper. When you crowdfund, it's quite a big commercial kind of commission take on it. So it's very much, I guess, seen as a bit of a marketing move as well. Much higher fees in effect. So you'd be best going down private if it's there. Crowdfunding's great because you can reach an audience you would have never reached. And yeah, play the marketing community piece. But yeah, it's a few bits to consider.

And for your next round then, having both experiences, have you decided which way are you going to go?

I think, uh, I think we can do both. I mean, we— that's what we did with the last round. We had strategic investors coming on board and also the crowd. So, you know, with the business like ours, it's wise to always keep that, you know, that door open for loyal customers that can come on board in the journey. I mean, you see what BrewDog have done, they've got 200,000 equity pounds or whatever. So it's, you know, it's proven sort of method and model that seems to work. So I think while, while we're so hands-on, while we're, you know, in the trenches and throwing activations and, you know, festivals, it's, it's great to bring people along, they can see it firsthand and you know, really live and breathe the brand.

Speaking of activations and marketing, that's one of your key advantages. You are very involved and pretty much the faces of your own product compared to, say, other beers or products in that space. What was the thinking behind it? Besides, of course, going on a reality show and finding sneaky ways to get your brand on?

Yeah, I guess. Yeah. So obviously, speaking about the TV show, that was a way to seeing proven success of other celebrities and alcohol brands or celebrities and any brand sort of consumer-facing brands. We just saw there's a proven model there that works. So why not try and do it to our scale? Not saying we're any big-name celebrities, but to a degree, and use that model to our advantage. So That was obviously a thought. And then I think a lot of people buy into like co-founder-led content, co-founder-led brands where you really get a bit of the personality of those co-founders. And, you know, Sam and I are two best mates having a laugh. We liken ourselves to stepbrothers, two just curly-headed fucks. And we might as well play into that because we're just having a good time doing it. We, you know, we did it for ourselves to have a beer that we could drink at pubs and bars and and have that more sustainable lifestyle. So we're going to be those guys at pubs and bars doing the promotions, the activations, and having the fun times at festivals. And that then, you know, indirectly we become the face of the brand. But it's never been like, let's be the face. It's just, we are, it's just us, um, in a bottle or can or keg. It's just what Prime Time is. So, uh, you know, I think that's the way we've gone with it.

Publicly facing, you are both actively promoting, marketing the business. I know you currently have an ad campaign running across London. But behind the scenes, every co-founder partnership tends to differentiate roles. How do you separate your roles within the business? Who does or who is responsible for what?

This is, this is kind of the beauty of mine and Harvey's relationship is that we are very different. Harvey's excellent at some things that I'm terrible at and kind of vice versa. So we don't really step on each other's toes where, you know, I think we complement each other beautifully. And I kind of sit across fundraising side of things and business development bits. And then Harvey sits as the CEO and I say this all the time, but people don't believe me, but he's probably the smartest guy I know, very, very granular into the finances and detail. So I think it's a nice yin-yang situation.

Yeah.

Harvey, not a lot of people know that you're qualified in accountancy, right? And you worked for a big accountancy firm before you started Prime Time or went on reality shows.

Yeah. Yeah. I was a PwC qualified accountant, did that. That was that kind of course I mentioned at the beginning of this conversation where I was between Newcastle and London and how I bumped into Sam. So I've got a lot. So thank PwC for all this bonus. Um, but yeah, sort of did a hybrid course where I kind of fast-tracked myself through the ACA, which, um, to those out there listening will know it's a fairly tedious and tough course to do. But, um, I was pretty excited to get out the back end of it, um, and onto something a bit more big, exciting, and aligned to, you know, my passions and my future or where I want my future to go. So yeah, definitely my background. It does definitely have some credibility when you then do go on to Rally TV to launch a business and it kind of shows actually. Business was always first and Rally TV is a means to an end.

Speaking of business, I want to ask you, how big is your team now?

We're 13 strong at the moment.

And what was the key consideration when you started hiring your first employees? What were you looking for in people to join your crew and your mission? Because getting the first few employees right, from my experience, is key to the development of the business and its future success. And you can make sometimes fatal errors at this stage if you don't course correct quickly. So I want to know about your ethos behind your hiring and your learnings as well from this process.

Our first hire was Fred, he sits as our creative manager. When myself and Harvey had just done the show and we were starting to build profiles and the brand was so visibly seen, we knew we needed someone that could create amazing content and get our product out there. We had the platforms to pump it out there between us and our friends as well and other netflix colleagues on the show that we needed to have well-polished content that we could use, as well as having a great beer. Our sort of unfair advantage is that we can go into pubs and bars and restaurants and offer them so much more than a great beer. We can offer them huge social media support. So Fred, Fred was the right decision there at the time, and he's still with us now. And then the culture is so important for us at Prime Time where we're all sort of aligned on the same mission, the same goals, and where we all sort of enjoy a similar thing. We'd all sort of hang out outside of work. Um, as mates. So it's important to sort of create that core group of employees. And then our second hire, Fergus, is operations manager, um, and he's now— and he's such a key core member of the team. So it was about really securing that core team of 4 or 5 important functions around the business and then building around them. You know, obviously you have your bad hires and, uh, you learn from those. Definitely learned to sort of hire a bit slower and fire faster. You can always be caught in that cycle of giving someone one more month and one more month and one more month, and then, um, you get into sort of hot water. But, um, I think we've been, touch wood, fairly lucky with our, with our employees. And, um, yeah, such an exciting business, especially at the moment. So much happening in the traction building that I truly believe it's a great place to work, and it's exciting place to work as well.

Yeah, I mean, I just add, I think really our goal as co-founders is just kind of making ourselves redundant. It's finding, you know, gaps in our strengths and hiring around that as well is a big factor in our decision-making process. We know what we're good at, we need to do more of that, and we know where we could do better at. And that's kind of what drove a lot of our first hires. It's like, right, we're bored of doing that, we can't do that. We're bored of that because we can't do it, normally is the case. Let's hire someone who is good at that. And then we can put all our energy and resource to what we're best at. And then it's just this 360 collaborative approach as ourselves and the team of driving this business forward as effective, as quick and as possible.

Do you have a trick question or a key question when you interview possible candidates that gives you an idea of what they're all about?

So hard in interviews. Someone's always there putting their best foot forward that you can get load into us. Full sense of, uh, security there. But we always ask them if they like beer. If they don't like beer, that's normally a red flag.

Yeah, do you like beers too? Um, and I guess, yeah, nothing to catch anyone out, but just it is about getting that through kind of more lifestyle questions like, do you like your fitness? Are you into your running? Like, all these things kind of play a part into make sure you're right cultural fit and you get the lifestyle that we're trying to promote and achieve as a brand. So, but yeah, no, maybe we need to come up with like, how many ping pong balls fit in a Boeing 737 or something.

Go.

That's because your lifestyle is a big part of your business, right? Especially with the activations and the marketing that you both do personally around the UK. Do you take staff along as well?

Yeah, we literally go as if we were a group of mates, to be honest, to the majority of things. Anyone that can go and is about will be at these events and activations. And that's the beauty about sort of hiring the cultural fit is that everyone is good mates and you just get on. It doesn't feel like you're at work when you're past 6 PM and you're having drinks at bar, which is effectively still work because we're promoting prime time, but you're just having a laugh and it makes it that much easier for everyone. So yeah, everyone mucks in when they can.

What's the setup like with your staff? The reason I'm asking and what I'm trying to get from a lot of the entrepreneurs and founders I speak to is what's the balance between being in the office and working remotely or hybrid? How do you guys operate Primetime as?

So yeah, we have an office here in London. So everyone comes into the office.

Behind you. Yeah.

Way behind. We're in it. Um, and then obviously the sales team are on the field out selling. So we really feel that an office is the best place to kind of cultivate the culture and get creative. That it's so hard to bounce ideas off each other if you're all on your laptops at home, sort of Zooming and stuff. It's, you don't have that creative buzz around the office. And, you know, I think, yeah, it's important to have people in the office, but the sales guys, they come in. In the mornings and, you know, get on with the admin side, and then they're out on the road knocking down doors and getting those wins. But yeah, I think the office is definitely the way forward for a brand like ours where, you know, also, you know, me and Harvey want people to be involved, you know, in this sort of decision-making in the business and the direction it goes in. So it's great to have people around that you can always bounce ideas off.

Have you contemplated hybrid or have potential staff asked you about the opportunity and you decided against it, or you've always worked from the office and didn't budge on that position?

No, we're quite flexible. And if someone's got kind of a need to not be in the office and wants to do it at home, quite often had people that had to not, like, I don't know, move out of London for a period of time when they're between houses, and then we can be flexible. It's just so that We're a community-led brand. Most of our staff live around the area and the office is actually very convenient. We put it, we positioned ourselves here to make it convenient for everyone. And I think everyone kind of likes to get to the office and have a good day laughing with their mates, hopefully getting a bit of work done. Um, so yeah, we'll see. The real productivity is, is as we've got it sort of laid out now. So in the office and yeah, as and when you can. Basically, but there's no, there's no commitment.

There is a commitment from what I read. You're on track to generate £3.3 million in revenue for 2025. So that's a big task on everybody's hands. What's the next big step for Prime Time now that you've moved not only from bars and pubs, but also into supermarkets? In Waitrose, if I'm correct, just over 290 stores.

It was a big launch for us into Waitrose. And yeah, our first off-trade retailer. So super exciting. We, we kind of always saw ourselves going into, into a Waitrose to begin with and starting there. We don't want to run before we can walk. So we want to get that absolutely right. But then the plan is to launch into another big off-trade retailer. And, you know, continue to grow within the partners that we've got at the moment. We just sort of started a relationship with Young's Pub Group as well. So we're starting to roll out throughout Young's Pub Group. They've got over 250 sites now. So it's really about nurturing these ones now. Once you're in the door, it's, you know, that's half the battle. But then the other half is to, you know, to keep activating them well, keep the sales coming through and sort of growing with those partners. But yeah, we're having some really exciting conversations with other big pub groups, other big supermarkets, and some other exciting conversations. But I don't think any I can really disclose too much on this now. But keep your eyes peeled.

I think, yeah, just add, I guess, yeah, it's just continuing our sort of focus on the UK expansion. We really want to pioneer the space here in the UK and be known as the Better For You beer and really creating the category. It's obviously not an established category. We're very much sort of leaders in it. And we want to continue that. Hopefully get the beer out to everyone and provide them with a better, more sustainable option, I think, which would just benefit the overall consumer base. It'll benefit the category itself, bring more people into the beer category, which I think is quite needed now, especially in a time of a lot of pressures on hospitality and whatnot. So just continuing that.

What's the process like getting and dealing with a supermarket? Is it like one of those episodes in The Apprentice where you're like being grilled by a bunch of supermarket people, and they taste it, and then they deliberately say they don't like it just to see what your response is. How did you find it?

It was a lot of, yeah, you know, you're hunting them down, you're, you're knocking on the door, and you're emailing and you're emailing, you know, hundreds and thousands of brands all want to get into these off-trade retailers. So The buyers are being hounded 24/7. So it's about trying to separate yourself from the others. And then, you know, once you secure that meeting, you then get a face-to-face if you're lucky, and you go down there and that's when you've got to really put your best foot forward and do your best sales pitch and get them to believe in the dream and buy into what you're doing. But I think that the most exciting thing is when a buyer at an off-trade supermarket really gets what you're doing and can see the shift in the movement in the space, it's, it's when you're on something and that just fires you up even more. Because I don't think really anyone knows the category better than them. They're constantly looking at what's evolving, what's coming, what's going, what's popular, what's not. So yeah, it's very intimidating when you, when you get in there. But you know, if you believe in what you're doing in your brand, then kind of, you have to leave it in their hands. But yeah, when we went down to Waitrose for that first meeting into the office, it was a, it was a sweaty palms situation. But now, now we're in and got an amazing relationship with the buyer. It's— yeah, I think you've just got to be super resilient with these guys, because they're, like I said, they're being hounded by everyone. So it's got to keep at it.

Harvey, you mentioned how you were first to the market. And if I understand correctly, still the only in the market with the USPs you have. Has anybody looked at copying you or your product idea? Or if they do, there's been some high-profile debate, especially on social media, when certain budget supermarkets came up with their own range of beers copying somebody else. How are you tackling imitators?

Yeah, no, I think just to clarify, there were sort of people before us doing low-calorie beer in the UK, and there are now sort of people behind us. So there is competition in the market for sure. We're just hitting it harder and getting that traction. But it's something Sam always says it best, but we'd be in the wrong business if we didn't have competition. All it does is make us refocus and get more tunnel vision and go, right, let's just stay in our lane, do what we're doing right now. And you not become complacent that we think we're going to be in this industry on our own, or in this category on our own. We're not. So we just have to level up each time and just keep, you know, offering the amazing product we have and keep sort of evolving the brand to be better and better every day. And that's really the only thing we can do. So all that's in our control. But I think, you know, there's huge positives to take from competition in that they help this big consumer education piece, which we're doing a lot of our resource and efforts go towards to tell people, hey, look, there's a low-calorie beer, it tastes just as good, but it's not as bad for you. Like, that can be done by other competitor brands, and then we can all share in the development of that category itself. So I think it's actually quite an exciting thing to see.

So how does it feel to create your, in a way, your own category in what is a crowded market with some really, really huge players? What are your learnings from that so far?

There's bullies out there is the learning. We're going against some global companies which hold the majority of the market, I'd say 80% of the market is just the global giants. And it comes with so many hurdles like exclusivity blocks. There's pubs and bars that want you, but they can't have you because the big guys have already paid to be there. And so I guess we've just learned to be patient, work with independent partners, mean you kind of have that grow-together culture where it's like we can help each other here and, and, and kind of slowly kind of prove ourselves. And then scale up appropriately and when our time is right. And I think, um, yeah, it's easy to sort of get impatient and just want to hit the turbos from day one, but it's, um, I don't know, I don't know other industries enough, but I'm sure most industries play in that same kind of dynamic where you've got big players that are just gonna not want small players to come in and take market share. So, um, yeah, I've learned just to be patient and, um, and work with the right partners and then grow. And then, then the big guys will start to move aside or listen, I guess.

Certainly from my experience, there are also bullies in other industries, which also try to keep newcomers at bay.

100%. Yeah. Flattered, flattering, I guess.

It's certainly a sign that if they set their sights on you, they feel threatened by you. And if they feel threatened by you, it means you're on to something good.

Yeah.

So I'm gonna take it.

So guys, even if you drink low-calorie caffeinated beer that's healthier for you, business and life can get super hectic, especially as you work long hours round the clock and around the country. How do you guys stay focused and productive? With everything on your plate? What are your, your habits that, that keep you sharp when everything can get so crazy?

Well, I think fitness is a common one we both share. It's what underpins part of the brand. We make sure we get our fitness in daily and consistently, and it's a great way to release and switch off, a bit of mental therapy. Stay feeling good, looking good is is part of both our schedules, I guess, having beers with mates and actually switching off from work itself, because most beers revolve around us talking about work. And yeah, I won't lie, there's not much switch off though. So it's also just getting or developing a resilience to understanding that this is life now. It is 24/7, 365, and you know, you just, you'll get used to always being on to a degree, which I don't know, speaking for myself, I absolutely love. I'm sure Sam was as well, otherwise we wouldn't be here. So it's kind of getting used to your destiny and equally putting definitely some habits in place that you don't burn out and you do keep that mental clarity throughout because that's key. And I think there's times, especially myself, I've got to kind of burn out territory and I have had to take a step back and just go, well, like, what's the point? You're not going to be productive. You're not going to actually achieve what you're trying to achieve if you don't stop and just just have a deep breath, recalibrate. So yeah, and I'll usually use that sort of health and fitness and sport to kind of recalibrate.

Yeah, I think just to add to that, I think it's important to have, have those, those right habits and be able to switch off from work. I mean, there's such a kind of hustle culture, which is— I, I, you see some entrepreneurs going on about, which is, you know, you know, up at work until 4 AM and then up at 6 AM or whatever every day. And it's kind of glorifying that, that type of work, which actually you've got to be super unproductive and, you know, investors are going to hate that and you're not going to get anywhere. So I think, um, yeah, it's about being able to switch off when you can switch off, like Harvey said, and have your release, your releases elsewhere. Because it's a long process, this having a business and creating something hopefully with longevity, is that you've got to be able to sustain that level the whole way through and not be a flash in the pan and burn yourself out and hate coming to work. So that's not good for anyone.

Any other practical tips you have in that department besides naturally, as you said, exercising and also unwinding with friends over beer, likely prime time, right?

Of course, always. I think obviously effective scheduling, you know, get your diary in check and try and be as effective with your time. As Sam says, if you can be effective for 10 hours a day, it beats being ineffective for 16 and just trying to do too much and burn yourself out. And that comes with being organized and structured. So getting that in check, something Sam and I, we're not organized people. We would like, well, I don't now do anything. Like I'll miss something if it's not in my diary. My diary is my first thing I look at at night in the First thing I look at in the morning, the last thing I look at at night, make sure I know what I'm doing in the morning is based off my diary. So, and that's definitely something that I've, it's developed along, along the way as things have, you know, time, I guess, things we've had to do have just become so pressured that it's like, right, if it's not scheduled, it's kind of not, it's going to be missed. So learn that habit from day one because it will really help.

I think also like Arby mentioned earlier as well as having right people around you that can take some of the weight off your shoulders as well, and delegating the work. Again, it's, it's the classic, um, founder mentality that you've got to do everything yourself and not let anyone— because you're worried that anyone that's going to touch it is going to ruin it. So, um, it's actually, again, hiring the right people and delegating. We're lucky that we've got an amazing team now that kind of pick up the core functions of the business. It's not just two of us anymore, there's 13 people that are all here for first sort of common goal, I'd say. Yeah.

Something that the entrepreneurs and founders I speak to tell me is that they are always on a hunt for constantly learning and evolving. And they typically either do it through books, YouTube videos, or podcasts like this one. What sort of business books or podcasts or resources have really inspired you on your business journey?

I'm a podcast guy. I like to listen to podcasts as I run, but I'm also reading a book at the moment called Stratospheric CEOs, which is, which is a great book. I actually got sent it from a CEO that's featured in the book, who's family sort of connection. One of my best friends from school basically married his daughter, so got to meet Lance. But yeah, I think I love meeting sort of these real world sort of heroes. I mean, I've met now Jasper, the founder of Camden Hells, a few times and listening from the man himself. And that's kind of what really gets me going. And like I mentioned earlier, we're surrounded by great investors that have done this before. So yeah, it's really meeting them for coffees and beers and hearing their journey and always asking for advice. Yeah, I think you can listen to as many podcasts and books as you want. But it's always— I always find it best to actually be there and ask questions and get that sort of real-world advice from people that have done it before.

Yeah, I mean, I laughed at the beginning of that question because I'm just so dyslexic that reading is not massively my thing. So I'm not one for massive book reading, but I do, I tend to just keep up kind of the industry news and whatnot through like the Grocer and Morning Advertiser and just understand what's going on in the industry and kind of learn as Sam said from what others are doing and other founders and CEOs and seeing, I guess I love reading about case studies, you know, what Red Bull did, what BrewDog did, what others did to get to where they've got to. Early books or podcasts, they're shorter kind of snippets. And, um, so that's kind of where I've been directing my reading and I guess educational piece too at this time. But yeah, I'm quite conscious of probably reading a few big length books just probably to get my reading ability up, if anything.

Audio, audio.

Yeah, I guess there's audio.

Maybe an, yeah, maybe an audiobook. But you, you both guys, uh, uh, touched on, on something else. As part of this question, which is surrounding yourself with like-minded people who also inspire you and help you grow. What do you find is the best way of doing that?

I think, actually, we've come in front of big sort of accomplished founders and CEOs and entrepreneurs in our journey as we've kind of grown as credible, more credible business ourselves. So it kind of naturally will happen if you're on that journey. Otherwise, there are kind of like founder sort of networks and networking events that we have gone to as well, which are hugely useful for developing that network. Even going to, you know, talk panels and not necessarily the network itself, but, you know, listening to people speak firsthand about what they've achieved. And then I think, you know, YouTube and all that is such a just a library of, of information there that you can, you can tap into.

Yeah, I think, yeah, founders and, and businessmen, it's so easy to, to get to someone via sort of LinkedIn, or there's always 6 degrees of separation, or like I said, YouTube and, and whatnot. But yeah, I think just trying to level up from those around you is, is the key. And attending entrepreneur events, attending founders events where there's Yeah, like Arvid said, panel talks, which is great. We've gone to a fair few of those along the way and met some great people.

Now, something that I like to ask everybody at the end, and I know it from my personal experience as well, is that there's no success without sacrifice.

Fuck.

So with that in mind, what's the biggest sacrifice you had to make to build Primetime and be where you are today?

So I'm just starting with that. So funny, I have that exact saying tattooed on my arm here: no success without sacrifice, in Latin. So I know, well, um, and it's something I look at daily and I say, you know, it's, it's definitely, uh, yeah, to get where we want to get to and the heights we're trying to achieve and the ambitions we have, there's 100% going to be sacrificing quite steep sacrifices along the way. And I think, um, they come in so many different forms, but obvious ones, your social life. Ours is probably the fact that our beer and business revolves around the social side. We're probably not that exposed to it as much as other businessmen will be because our business brings us into the social space, but it's normally for business reasons. It's actually going out and just switching off and enjoying, like we said, is so important. It depends which sort of mode, like Definitely my connecting to female stuff, which is, uh, you know, relationships and whatnot, it can be hindered. Um, and I guess any hobbies. I used to play rugby at a very high standard and, um, and I loved it, and I haven't had the, the, yeah, the time and commitment to, um, be able to continue that, which is always a shame. I'm only getting older, so I think I'm, you know, can't strap my boots back on anymore. I've kind of missed those days.

So, oh, I mean I think, yeah, there's a big financial sacrifice as well. You're putting everything on the line for something you believe in and your friends that are similar sort of age are in stable careers and making a good amount of money. So there's kind of, there's always that sacrifice that you're sort of earning the bare minimum to get by in the hope that there's a bigger financial reward at the end. But that sometimes means you can't keep up with doing the nice things that your friends are doing or the nice deals and whatnot, nice cars. But I think that just comes with the territory. We believe in what we're doing, and we're willing to make that sacrifice now. Yeah, I think time, you know, you're sacrificing a lot of time with family as well, family and friends, you know, can't always go and see your family whenever you want and all the time because you're busy sort of growing, growing your dream. So I think Yeah, I think that's probably the biggest ones for me. It's worth it though.

I don't want to throw you off with all those sacrifices. It's definitely worth it.

Looking ahead, I want to, I want to go onto an optimistic note. You've mentioned owning your own facility in the future and also a long-term vision with new products for Prime Time. Where do you see Prime Time being by 2030? I know you have an ambitious revenue goal and valuation as well.

As is 2030. Yeah, I think, I think by that point you fully dominate across all cities and prime time as a household brand across all supermarkets and hopefully most people's fridges to a degree. And then sort of definitely stepped into the international markets, US, Australia, Europe sort of footprint and hopefully an amazing team and an amazing sort of headquarters here still in Fulham and Chelsea and Um, still living the dream, but hopefully, yeah, probably drinking less beers. I won't be able to keep up the pace. Um, yeah, what would I say?

I think, yeah, by 2030 we want to be in a position where, like Harvey said, we're a household name and we're starting to knock on the doors of the global giants that are looking at us, uh, and we're pissing them off so much that there has to be a thing like we haven't got to in this, in this podcast yet, but our, in our world, there's, there's really two ways that you can go is a James Watt BrewDog style where you grow the business to an enormous scale and you potentially IPO it or there's a trade exit, which is what the likes of Beavertown and Camden Hells have done. And if you're around, around the world in max distribution, those are the paths you need to take. Trade partner, you know, maybe acquiring a small stake and exploding it around the world and then buying the rest out. But yeah, I think by 2030, we want to be in a position where we've pissed them off enough that they're coming to the table to say, right, should we take prime time around the globe?

So trade partner would be your preferred route or your exit route that you're thinking of.

Yeah, I think, you know, our mission's been to bring the world a beer for a better you. So to share this better for you, more sustainable option with as many people as we can. And, you know, by working with global partners is the best way to do that. So that's kind of definitely a route we see in our future, for sure.

Keeping in mind everything you've learned so far, what would be the key advice you would give your your younger self now in business and in life?

I would have said to my younger, younger self, I would have said, well, it'll unravel, it'll figure itself out. I was always so stressed and sort of worried about what I'm going to do, how I'm going to do it, like what does life have in store for me kind of thing. And spent years just stressing about that far too much. And, you know, and it just kind of You just get to where you can get to because it's the way that life goes. And I think, um, yeah, just sort of again, just relax, let it happen kind of vibe. And I think now to my kind of not so young self, but pre maybe starting prime time, is just enjoy it, enjoy each day and actually enjoy those baby steps and be patient. And you look back and sort of years back, you'll be like, look how much has actually been achieved in a year when actually all you want to do that day is go How are we not this big by now? Or moving, like, why aren't we moving big enough? And it's actually like, just do basics right and each day and enjoy it. You'll look back and you'll see how much you've achieved and it'll be quite shocking.

I can't top that. I think that's, uh, I agree. I agree with what he said. I think they're pretty good answers there.

Uh, I think that's it.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

That's been really cool to find out all about Primetime, your mission, and your plan, Sam, Harvey. Thank you so much for joining Millennial Masters and good luck with your next move.

Thank you, Daniel.

Cheers, been a pleasure.

Cheers, mate.

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