How to build a brand people actually believe in 🫗 | Rob Smith (Arrowtown)

You know, you're constantly comparing yourself to other people, not necessarily other businesses. You know, I could have played it safe and gone the easy route and be climbing the corporate ladder somewhere, and I'm sure I'd be making a lot more money there, but I wouldn't be having the fun and exciting ride that I'm probably on today. That's one of the main things I try and remind myself. I still wouldn't, I wouldn't change it for anything. Don't get me wrong, there's a lot of sacrifice in it, but at the end of the day, I still wouldn't have changed it because It's what I wanted to do.

This week's Millennial Master is Rob Smith, co-founder of Arrowtown Drinks. Together with his brother James, he turned a gap year discovery into a purpose-driven drinks brand, challenging industry giants and proving that independence, authenticity, and sustainability are the real competitive edge. In this episode, we cover why having a real story behind your brand is your biggest asset, how to compete with industry giants when you have zero resources, and the mindset shifts that help you handle setbacks and turn obstacles into opportunities. Millennial Masters is proudly sponsored by Jolt, the UK's top web hosting service. Whether you're launching a WordPress site or scaling up a custom app, every great project needs a reliable home. That's why Jolt has hosting plans starting at just £3.95 a month, with unbeatable deals on domain registrations too. Why Jolt? It's a no-brainer. There's no waiting around with support within 30 seconds on live chat. Your site stays live no matter what with over 99.99% network uptime, and you can also pay with Bitcoin or American Express, so you can rack up those points too. How good is that? Sign up today and enjoy your first 3 months free. Head to jolt.co.uk to get started.

Rob, welcome to Millennial Masters. How are you today?

Great, thank you. I'm great, thanks, Daniel. Thanks for having me on. I'm excited to chat to you today.

And so am I. And I think your story and the story of Arrowtown starts very far away, somewhere in New Zealand, where you were backpacking with your brother quite a few years ago. Is that the inception point of your entrepreneurial journey?

Yeah, yeah. So it does actually backdate to, well, 2018 now. I was indeed taking a gap year after university. So I studied environment business at Leeds. I was actually meant to go and start a grad scheme at JLL, which is a sort of property real estate company. But I decided that I wanted to buy myself some time, and I was going to go traveling, unsure of what, you know, would be next. So as far as they were concerned, I was meant to come back and start the following September. Be quite right. I was out in Arrowtown, New Zealand, which is a small sort of beautiful mining village, sort of old gold mining village in New Zealand. Beautiful place, you've got to go if you've— if you haven't been before. But that was really where it began, because I was sort of hanging out with a lot of locals, because I was staying with some mutual friends. And they have this interesting day there called Crate Day, which is— I think it's the first the first weekend in December or something else. And it basically is exactly what it sounds like. It is everyone turns up to a party or wherever they are with a crate of beers. And you— the aim is to just try and drink, you know, your whole crate. But interestingly, everyone turned up with sort of ready-to-drink spirit mixers, which to be honest, I thought was quite unusual. Because, you know, in the UK, everyone just turns up with a crate of beers. And that's like pretty normal, especially if you you and sort of your, your mates getting together. And everyone was basically drinking these spirit mixers, and they were made with spirits, sparkling water, and fruit juice. So the idea being they were lower in calories, they didn't have artificial ingredients and sweeteners. I think straight away, I just remember thinking, why didn't we have this in the UK? Because it seemed like such an obvious problem. So I'd obviously gone through university, I was getting pretty tired of the standard options. But like everyone my age group, I was starting to get a little bit more health conscious as well. And it just seemed there was perhaps this opportunity for someone to do what they were doing there and just create some great tasting drinks, which were made with all natural ingredients and low in sugar. Because I thought it shouldn't be that hard to find. So that's exactly sort of how we got going. I came back to the UK. My brother was still studying. In Exeter, but we got chatting about it. We knew we wanted to start a business together, um, and we decided like maybe this is what we, we should do because I think we thought this is a problem we've seen ourselves, so if we think like this, then surely other people do too. Um, so that was really how we got, how we got going in the first place. And I mean, we honestly had no idea what we were doing. We weren't—

I was about to ask you, you are in your gap here. There was no experience in the beverages or manufacturing industry or food industry for that case. How did you go about to creating or recreating some of the amazing drinks you had back in New Zealand and adapting them to the UK market?

Yeah, so great question. We, yeah, we honestly had no idea what we're doing. Obviously, I've done one placement year, sort of year of work in London, during my degree, but that was sort of as far as it went in terms of exposure to the real world, I guess, other than part-time jobs, which I'd always had. James was still studying at Exeter, so to be honest, it was a lot of Googling, honestly Googling stupidly, looking back now, literally how to start a drinks company. We were reaching out to anyone we knew in the space, which wasn't a lot. We were just trying to befriend local breweries. But honestly, the biggest thing for me was LinkedIn. I was just messaging lots of founders, Dasherwater, Punchy, all of these guys who are incredibly helpful in our early days, and still are today. But honestly, just reached out and was just asking, getting them on a quick call and say, how would I start? Where would I create a recipe? Or where would I produce? And is this even possible? And that's how we sort of joined the dots and just kept taking one step after another. And we got there in the end. But It wasn't easy because also, not only did we have no clue what we were doing, even at times I remember speaking to sort of specialists in the space, obviously won't name names, and they create sort of recipes and could help you take a product to market basically. And I remember getting on a call and he literally said, I'm here to shatter your dreams. And it's not possible, like no one will do small-scale canning. Looking back now, it's a good job I didn't listen because I then just had to speak to other people and choose wisely, the advice. And at the time, there were small canning companies cropping up, and we found great partners over the years to work with. But yeah, so that's how we got going. Basically, a lot of LinkedIn, a lot of networking, and just figuring out as we go. So it's an interesting, yeah, an interesting phase. That's for sure.

So how did you go about creating the drink? And how many iterations you had before you said, okay, this is the one? You worked with a specialist the best company to do this, right?

Yeah. So we sort of— we had a few people recommend a company down in Brighton. Great, great company to work with. And you, you basically go to them with a brief. So we knew kind of what we wanted, but on the other hand, we didn't— we didn't even know what spirit we should use. We didn't know how it worked at all. And it's kind of embarrassing now looking back because, you know, it's an expensive day and we were there for— you know, you're meant to have a full day. I think we were done by 1 o'clock. And just honestly, just very naive. But hey, you've got to start somewhere. Yeah, that's exactly how it works. You go to them with a brief, they help you create some recipes, you take the samples away. And so we did get a fair few iterations, we probably changed it. At that point, you probably do 15, 20 different variants on the day itself. Then we tested with friends, made some more tweaks, and finally took it to our first production run. And so yeah, we tried to lean into the experience of other people. We didn't go and set up our own canning line. That was never our plan. So we wanted to find people to just help us with every part of the initial journey.

But your journey also started at a very difficult time in the economy when a global event and a global pandemic meant that it wasn't as easy to get that product made and get it out there?

Yeah, definitely. Yeah, we had, yeah, a very difficult time because this is going back to, I think, 2019. We started getting some ideas together with the aim of trying to launch in spring 2020. And we pretty much had everything ready to go. And then obviously COVID came through. And what happened was all of the the big brewers had obviously all their product in kegs and casks, and basically they were gonna go to waste. So they ended up buying up millions of cans so that they could actually can their product and keep it for longer and sell it into retail. And, you know, because obviously hospitality was all closed. So as a result, there was basically a global can shortage. And the only people who could get them was the big guys. So And, you know, the last people people wanted to sell to was two brothers who'd never produced a can before, needed a few thousand cans. Like, it was— we were right on the bottom of the pile. And so it was very tough. And so we ended up being delayed until, I think, before Christmas of that year. So it pushed us back a good, probably, 9 months in the end. But yeah, honestly, at that point, it was— there was a lot of time we we thought about, I mean, not really necessarily thought about it, but I think a lot of people would have thrown in the towel because it did seem like an impossible task. And we also went through, and I don't know whether you would have seen it, it's sort of buried in archives of our memory even as well, but we actually had a different name when we first started to launch the business. Yeah, yeah, so it was going to be called Mammoth. The idea being, obviously initially we were part of different wildlife charities. And so we didn't want another Mammoth on our hands. So that was sort of looking back now, I'm really glad it didn't work out. I much prefer Aretau. But basically when we were going for that name, we then got sort of a threat of a lawsuit from the Russian vodka company. So thankfully it all actually worked out in the end, because if COVID hadn't come down, come across, we then would have found that we had 20,000 cans of Mammoth we had to shift, um, pending lawsuit. So thankfully, it all worked out for the best.

Tell me about how that legal threat helped you pivot and go in a different direction, because it was actually something another Millennial Master told me in a previous episode that I've just published the other week about something like that pushing them in a different direction, which actually helped take things so much further.

Yeah, definitely. Because I think although it made sense in our minds of why we wanted it to be called Mammoth, like looking back now, it just has no fit to the brand at all. It sounds more like a protein company or something like a gym brand, not really someone just making a range of vodka sodas. And so yeah, you're quite right. Thankfully it sort of forced us to think again, just what, what could we call it? And we settled on Aratan because it was where the story began. It means we can now talk about that, and it makes sense when we're sharing the story to times like this, but also to consumers. So it definitely forces us to think, think differently about, you know, how we want to actually communicate the brand and our story. And yeah, and also thinking back, we've now obviously last year, we did a major rebrand. If you haven't seen, here's a can for, for those. Look, so this is the new the new design. But basically, to simplify the charity element, we, we've switched charities, and we now remove 2 plastic bottles for every can sold. So it's purely focused on ocean charities now. And so the word mammoth now would be completely incorrect and have no relevance at all. So yeah, it definitely worked out for the best. And why I always try to remind myself of those days of how just, if something seems bad, just let it work itself out. Because normally, it does work out for the best. So yeah, that was a lesson.

So you mentioned you, you work with a charity, and I've read in my research as well that sustainability and being a force for good have always been close to your heart. And for millennial and, and young enterprises, especially in the drinks industry, that's, that's not something very usual. So can you, can you explain a little bit the idea behind it?

Yeah. So my background at university was environment and business, which was basically sustainability and combining sustainability and business and how they need to work together, sort of going forward. And so I always had an interest, a sort of a passion for it. And alongside that, I've grown up in Sussex, where I think 10 miles from the coast, in the middle of the countryside, and so just very much nature lovers, love the outdoors. So I think always sort of knew if we were to start a business, we wanted it to be something that, like you say, could be used as a force for good, because I think we thought within sort of ready-to-drink particularly, I mean, you'd seen in other categories across the board in other consumer goods, there were sustainable brands and people doing amazing things. But within food and drink, it seemed that there was no one really looking to do this and actually bring Purpose Driven Option to the space. Because our basic idea was that we wanted to tap into just behavioral change, because people are gonna, gonna drink. And so we wanted to make it, you know, people can make a genuine impact by something as simple as changing that drink when they're standing in front of the shelves. So that was why we did it. And it's, yeah, so it's important to us. And it also helps us differentiate within the market as well. And align with modern consumers. So it's really about combining the two. We wanted to do— bring a brand that was doing some good, but also on the health side, we thought it was just ludicrous that, you know, here we are still in 2025. And if you go to most major supermarkets, you still struggle to find an all-natural alcoholic energy drink. But you go to the soft drinks and there's amazing clean energy drinks and soft drinks and functional sodas. And, you know, in sauces, you've got Dr. Wills and their health products. And you see this across all different categories. But it's almost like an archaic category, the moment you go to ready to drink. So that's why we thought it needs some energy, it needs fun, it needs an independent brand with a purpose as well.

And you mentioned that when you first launched or were preparing to launch, you had quite a bit of a delay before you were able to, to go to market. Did you mean you have to switch some things up and do some other side bits in, in order to be able to take the business to that launch point? And how did you get the initial funding for it all? I understand you did quite a small batch to start with to launch, but nevertheless.

Yeah. Yeah, we had, I guess, a bit of an unconventional route in the world of food and drink. Because James was still in the study next, I then was actually back in Sussex after my travels. And so I ended up then working on a construction site. And I was basically using the funds, living at home, saving up every paycheck, and basically then using that money to pay for launching business. So the first thing was trying to pay for the recipe development days.. And we had to pay for a freelance designer. And don't get me wrong, that we, we found ways to be frugal. And we had, because we had no choice. But yeah, I was working basically full time on this site through COVID, trying to just save up money. They allowed me to sort of be flexible. So I would take off the Wednesday and work 4 days a week. And then the Wednesday I would use to line up all my calls with other founders. And as I was trying to piece together and find time to do the business. So I would do it on Wednesdays. And then worked through the evenings to try and get it to fruition. So yeah, it was a different path, I guess, to most food and drink brands. But yeah, it was a fun way to start. And you look back now on those memories, I absolutely loved those days because the excitement of starting a business and yeah, and having no idea what we were doing, but in a really exciting way, an interesting way to get going. But that's how we did it. We just wanted to Yeah, use our own savings and work hard to try and bring the product to market.

And getting your product to market and launching your product was just the first step in what was going to be quite a journey afterwards. How, how did Arrowtown or Mammoth develop afterwards? What, what, what are your learnings from, from taking your product to, to market and getting it out there? And how did you try to promote it? I've seen you are quite prolific on TikTok at the moment.

Yeah, we've got a different, different route again to most, I guess. But when we first started, because it was the middle of COVID as well, half the world was obviously shut down, which in some ways was great. Obviously, people were drinking at home. But it also meant that a lot of places that we could potentially sell to were also closed. So when we first got going, because we obviously had no idea what we were doing at this point, we had to really spend time like finding our feet. And we decided to focus on Sussex, like where we grew up. And so we were, of course, we were driving around and just going in cold to anywhere that sells booze, whether that was farm shops, delis, convenience stores. And honestly, the most successful thing we probably did at the very start was I would join every local community group on Facebook. And I would post in there, and just say, like, we're two Sussex brothers, we've launched this business, if you'd like to give them a try, we're doing a taster pack. And honestly, it was amazing. But the locals, the community and the support we got was incredible. And so we were literally taking orders via Facebook Messenger, and loading up the back of our parents' car, driving around Sussex, and hand delivering these. I think our record was like 10 minutes, like someone messaged and we were already around the corner. So it's like, yep, no worries, we'll be there in 10. So we were, yeah, we were well ahead of Amazon Prime in these days. And but yeah, that's how we had to get going because we just didn't really have any other choice or know where to even start. And obviously, we've evolved from that point and start working with wholesalers and started increasing our footprint across the country.

And that was going to be my next question. What was the tipping point when you started scaling up from launching at this tricky time and hand delivering in record time across your region and your home area to scaling it up nationally? What, what was the tipping point? And how did you get there?

Yeah, I think it's really start of 2023 was really when we got our first break, because that's when we started working with, with Co-op. So we got on reach a regional sort of listing within the Mid Counties. So ranging across from up from Birmingham across the Cotswolds, Midlands.

For us, that was Co-op's local range of products that they were promoting.

So we weren't necessarily local to them, but they can bring in products directly as well if they think it fits with that range and their values. So we got on really well with the team there. They loved what we were doing. And they basically gave us our first Break. So that was, yeah, 2023. And for us, that was our real first test, because, you know, we, we'd sold cans within farm shops and delis, but are we going to be able to perform in the retail environment? So we, for us, it was crucial. It was just going to see, like, can we actually, you know, deliver? Can we hit their targets and stay in? Fortunately, things went really well. We exceeded their targets. And we're still selling with them today. So they've been a really good— so they were probably the perfect step for us because it was a manageable level of sites and enabled us to build up credibility and case studies, which we're now taking out to other retail groups. And so we, yeah, we built on that. We've then, we sell in sort of independents and convenience stores across London with a couple of wholesalers there. We've done a lot in the festivals and events scene. So last year was our biggest summer yet. So we sold out BBC Radio 1, Big Weekend, Born of Sevens, we did Green Man, Bristol Pride, a lot of great events. So yeah, it's been a lot of change, I guess, from the early days. But we've obviously still got a very long way to go. And it's very tough, very tough industry, probably way harder than we ever thought it was going to be. But like, we're really enjoying the ride. And we do believe we've got a really interesting proposition and solving a problem. So yeah, we're going to keep, keep grinding away and do what we do. And yeah, hopefully keep growing our distribution across the country.

So you rightfully mentioned it's a, it's a tough industry. There's a lot of players, huge players in the alcohol and beverages industry, although you are carving yourself a niche where there's not as many, but nevertheless, in terms of distribution, marketing, and pure market power, you are playing against some really, really big global companies. How, how have you found that?

Yeah, it's definitely challenging, uh, going against the biggest companies in the world with pretty much zero resources in comparison. But it's one of those that we've got belief in, like, where we want to take the brand, and we're, we're still getting cut through, but I think we're just having to lean on our independence and lean into, you know, the unfair advantages that we do have against them. So it's become increasingly popular now where people, you know, they want to support independent brands, they're looking for brands like ours that have a story. And so that's what we're having to lean into and how we're trying to get more cut through at the moment is trying to really lean into that, lean into our authenticity and where the brands come from. And also bring people on for the, for the journey. So that's something we're trying to do more of now is show people more behind the scenes and what it takes to run this business or what the challenges have been. That's what TikTok is for. Exactly. So we're trying to push TikTok a lot harder now. Because we've seen amazing— yeah, brands do, do really well on there by doing exactly this, just giving a bit more behind the scenes and, and bringing people along for the journey. Because that's something that the big guys can never replicate. And because they don't have that authenticity. So that is our advantage that we've got to really, really lean into.

So you've approached first the direct-to-consumer market, you kind of like had to because of the way you, you launched locally, and then you expanding more into retail. I'm guessing the fact that somebody else was canning your recipe for your beverages meant that you could scale quite quickly in, in terms of production. But what did that mean for resources in the business and your organization and growing it and scaling it up, basically?

Yeah, so we've always been very stretched, um, as a business, that's for sure. And we definitely still are. Because from the start, it's just been James and I trying to build this brand together. Recently, we have had some help. So we've managed to bring in an intern, where we had our first intern for that was with us for a few months, which was great, and still doing good work for us. Now they're back at university, which is amazing. And then more recently, we brought in another great intern who's also bring a different strength, but amazing skill set and really helping us grow as well. But for most of the time, it's purely been James and I. And so we've really had to think carefully about how we actually make use of our time. So that's why we wanted to effectively outsource everything through from production through to logistics to the warehousing. Everything is basically handled for us. The idea is we wanted to spend very little time with the product in our own hands, if that makes sense. So that we can basically dedicate 90% of our time to selling, because that's the most important thing for us at this point is trying to scale up. So this works really well for the time being, but we are very stretched and trying to do a lot of things at once. So hopefully, things continue, we can start growing out the team over the next year or two. And I'm sure that'll be of great benefit to us.

Have you looked at raising investment for Arrowtown in order to grow it?

Yep. So we, we went a few years without, so we managed to just keep sort of bootstrapping the business and coming in very hard. So we was caught kind of capped out where we couldn't even do, make the most of larger opportunities in festivals because we didn't even have the money to do a larger production run. But over the last year, that's something we decided we were going to do. We've sort of felt that we know exactly where the opportunities lie now and sort of build on our learnings and our case studies. So that's something we wanted to do. So yeah, we've taken on some of our first investors, just closing up the investment round now, which is great because it actually enables us to really build on this and try and get free resources to make the most of these opportunities and try and really grow from this point. So in 2024, we really wanted to sort of get the foundations in order, really. So we wanted to get the funding round. We then did a major rebrand, which moved the brand on incredibly well. We won a Global Design Award for the packaging, which is great. So we're really proud of that. We reformulated all the recipes and yeah, really went back to the drawing board to really sort of build on what we now think is the right blocks. So yeah, it's been a lot of change, but a lot of progress, but it feels like now's the time to really push on from this point.

So it's another incoming tipping point for Arrowtown.

Definitely. I think hopefully this will be another inflection point we look back on and hopefully this is where we really, really kick on, but it never gets easier. So same, same hard yards.

Do you also have aspirations on having in the future or near future your own production line. I'm assuming that being agile and subcontracting and outsourcing a lot of the production also means that things can get a bit expensive and eat into your margin.

Yeah, definitely. But there's definitely the option to do it. But I think for us personally, we probably never will. There's great manufacturers out there now, like our our current partner has been amazing. And they work with brands a lot bigger than we are. So we know we've got a great partner that we can scale up with as well and always meet that demand. And we can grow with them, which is, which is perfect. And although, like you say, we could maybe shave off a few pennies if we did our own line, but having spoken to a few brands that have, particularly when we're a small team, it just doesn't make sense to use the capital. In that way, and headaches of running your own line. So for now, we're going to just leave it to the— leave it to the experts, and keep all of our time focused on growing the business.

I guess you could call Arrowtown a family business. Because yeah, your brother James is your co-founder.

Yeah.

And for a lot of the co-founders who I've spoken to, everybody who had one mentioned that obviously you you need to go through a dating process, really know what they're, what they are like, what are their aspirations, where do they want to be. But you had this idea with your brother from the beginning, and I'm curious, what are the dynamics in the business and how do you divide responsibilities?

Yeah, well, look, running a business with your brother for us is, is great. I think we both really enjoyed it. And we're quite different people, I'd say, but we're very similar in terms of like our aspirations for the brand and our thought process. So I think, I mean, to be honest, we haven't really had any challenges at all. We're always pretty much in agreement, or if we aren't, we normally come around. And I think what the main benefit is for us is that there's no beating around the bush. You can just be completely honest about your opinions. You don't just let things sort of go and maybe get worse, you just talk them through because that's what you've been doing, right? I mean, in it to a different degree, obviously, when we're, um, younger, I'm sure we're finding things out.

I wouldn't know.

Yeah, yeah. So yeah, we're one of five, so we're very much like a very close family as well. All of us are with our siblings, but it's— so it's been brilliant, and we both like complement each other in different ways. We do sort of split roles as well. So James is a lot more creative than me. So he does a lot of the sort of marketing sides and he self-taught himself Photoshop and Adobe and all of these skills to basically try and do everything in-house, save costs there. I would then handle more of the operational side and sort of production runs and logistics. And then both of us are basically trying to sell. But again, even within that, we split it off into different parts as well. Overall, it's been, it's been amazing. And to share the journey with one another and also go through the hard times and like pick each other up when it is tough because it has been a very difficult ride and a lot of persistence and a lot of people probably would have thrown in the towel by now. If maybe if we had more sense, we would have. So yeah, so it's been great, honestly loved it.

So having your, your brother and co-founder next to you when you felt that maybe we're not going to continue this, that it's too tricky. Was also very important in this process.

Yeah, I mean, we've never got to the point where, like, we've always felt that, you know, what we're doing is the right thing. And like, we've still got complete and utter belief in like where we're going to go. But obviously, there are very hard days, like when you just get rejections or just bang your head against the wall trying to get through to a buyer or investor. So yeah, it's, it is great being able to go through those together because, it can be a lonely ride. Um, and so I have a lot of respect for solo founders because I have no idea how they do it. But yeah, so very lucky to have a great brother to ride with.

You mentioned that there's been a big learning journey in this last 4 or 5 years or so. And you said you learned a lot from other founders in the wider industry who were very keen to help you. Maybe I think you can share how important it is to try and reach and create a circle of peers that you can learn from. You said even on the manufacturing side, you, you've been advised by others who did start their own manufacturing not to do so. And that's why you're still here today and in this growing phase.

Yeah, definitely. And I think this has probably been our best, our biggest learning Furthermore, we've always been honest to ourselves with the fact that we don't really know as much as other people, and we're always open to learning. I think for us, that has been crucial in how we've grown the business, because we're, we're constantly networking with other founders. So even now, just constantly messaging people and trying to catch up and see where we can overlap and where we can share ideas. And, but it's so important to have, like you say, a circle of people that you can pick up the phone to. So we've done that with whether it's people on the sales side or operational side or PR, there's always someone we know we can pick up the phone to and say, really having an issue here, or how would I even start here? That's definitely the biggest learning we've had. And the one bit of advice I'd give to anyone who's starting a drinks business, or any business for that matter, is just keep learning and just speak to other people because everyone has a piece of gold to share, but you just always pick something up from someone that can really change the direction you go.

Without naming names, unless you would like to, what's the best piece of business advice you've had in this process?

Great question. To be honest, I've had so much I can't even think of. I think, to be honest, it's probably just remain patient and be persistent. And I think one of the main people that's sort of been on our advisory team sort of helping us is a guy called Liam. He's founder of Dr. Wills. He's sort of been sort of a mentor for us, been there and done it before himself. But he's been, you know, there a few years ahead of us and operating a much bigger scale. But he's great because he's, he's been exactly where we are. So he knows those like the challenges we're facing and just can help give you that boost to sort of remain confident and keep turning up the next day and just go after it again and again and again. So a bit more of a general advice there, but yeah, that's probably one of the main things we've learned.

Resilience.

Definitely. Like we've taken, had to, yeah, even within like festivals or retail, there's been people like we've been going in there for the last 3 years and only now are we finally getting a listing with them. But hey, that's the nature of the game.

So that's the patience advice that some things and getting into a seller or getting a client can take up to 3 years until since you first meet them.

Exactly. Got to just be patient and keep the faith. So that's what we've got to keep telling ourselves now as we look to try and keep securing bigger listings now. So yeah, never changes.

Besides your peers and people in the industry, as this has been a learning journey, Have there been any particular books or business books that inspired you or gave you ideas to push Arrowtown to where it is today?

Yeah, definitely. Actually, there's a few in mind there. The one I probably swear by is, everyone's pretty bored of me saying this, my friends and things, is How to Win Friends and Influence People.

Okay.

I absolutely love that book because I think it just completely changes your perception on how to treat people and how you can use that, put the principles in place, as they say, to really use it to your advantage as well. And I think it's genuinely changed my life in terms of not only personal life and like how, you know, you build relationships with people, but also within business. I know for a fact, like, I was reading that book and I like tried one of the principles and we managed to win like a wholesaler listing off the back of it, purely because all I could think about when talking to them was think of that book and that principle. So for me, that's one of my favorite books of all time.

So which is one of those tips that you're applying from this book that helped you out? What's, what's the secret key from that one?

Well, I think the one in How to Win Friends was, I guess, one of the main sort of principles within there is to show more interest in other people. Because it's so easy, especially as a brand owner, I think, and naturally as people, like, you default to wanting to talk about yourself. But when you're talking to Iona Wholesale, for example, I think it's very easy to just want to tell them everything about your brand and why they should list it. But it's more about basically showing more interest in the other person, learning about them and enabling them to talk to you about what interests them, because people actually love talking about themselves, which makes way more sense once you read it in the book. But yeah, it seems to work. And yeah, definitely recommend reading that book. Then the other book I really like— I mean, there's a lot, but I like The Obstacle Is the Way by Ryan Holiday. So that's all about stoicism. And to be honest, that one actually links back nicely to my advice about resilience. And I think when I read that, it just reminded me like all the barriers we had to overcome to even get the product to launch was just ridiculous. And so looking back now, it all worked out for the best. We just had to trust the process and allow everything to work out. Because that's happened so many times with us, where it seems like it's the worst thing in the world. And then down the line, you get to it and you're like, wow, we've really got lucky that it actually played out how it did. So yeah, that's another great book. And I think key for a key mentality shift, business owners, especially in this space, when you're getting a lot of rejection and go through a lot of hard times, then just having something like that to remind yourself that you've got to embrace it. And sometimes that's where the gold is, I guess. So you gotta just keep, keep knocking away.

You said you were lucky.

Do you think there was an element of luck in your journey as well? Or was it more persistence and not giving up?

I definitely say it's probably persistence, to be fair, because at this point, we're obviously still a very small business. So I'm still relying on a bit of luck to get us, to get us a bit further on than where we are now. But I'd say it's definitely been a lot of persistence to even get to this point for now. But then again, like, big believer of you make your own luck. Like, we try and explore every opportunity and speak to a lot of people and really push where we can to open up these opportunities that might one day be called luck. But actually is where we've just been relentless in our grind to try and, try and force these things to happen, I guess.

You still feel like you have quite a journey ahead of you. But also you've been on quite a journey for the past— I'll make it sound like a long time, but 5 years, half a decade now, just to feel a little bit older. And you started this basically in your early 20s. If if you could write a letter to young Rob, who was just getting inspired in Arrowtown, New Zealand, about what was to come and what to do next, what would you say to yourself?

Oh, I'd definitely say don't call it Mammoth and do any stupid things like that. I'd definitely say let's still start the business because long way to go, but definitely no regrets regardless of what happens. But I guess I'd say just keep going because it has been a rewarding journey and a really exciting and fun period of my life. And the learnings I've got is just ridiculous. And so yeah, that would be my letter to myself. Enjoy it. Try and enjoy those hard times a bit more, maybe.

You said there's rewards and success, which is continuing, but there's no success without sacrifice. And that's what I like to ask everybody coming on to Millennial Masters is what are the sacrifices you had to make to be where you are today as a business, but also to be the person you are today, which, as you said, is much more wiser and more resilient than you ever were.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I'd agree. It's definitely been a lot of sacrifice from a whole different lot of angles. I mean, I think one of the main things that can be challenging is, you know, you're constantly comparing yourself to other people, not necessarily other businesses, but also, you know, I could have played it safe and gone the easy route and gone on that graduate scheme and be climbing the corporate ladder somewhere, and I'm sure I'd be making a lot more money there. But I wouldn't be having the fun and exciting ride that I'm probably on today. I think that's one of the main things I try and remind myself. I still wouldn't, I wouldn't change it for anything. But yeah, there has been a lot of sacrifice in terms of the unpredictability and volatility of running a business. And you never know what's coming. And so, and it's hard as well, like putting that onto like your family and friends and like my girlfriend in particular deserves a massive shout out because It's not fun when you're just constantly in the trenches with something, or you need to quickly go and take a call, or you're on holiday and you spend the whole, whole time on the phone because production's going wrong, which is what happened last time. And so yeah, don't get me wrong, there's a lot of sacrifice in it, but at the end of the day, I still would never change it because it's what I wanted to do and I'm really enjoying it. Um, no matter how hard it is, I still just Yeah, wouldn't change it. Wouldn't change the words.

You also mentioned, and that's kind of like tapering off our discussion today. You also mentioned how even when you go on holiday, you have to take calls. It happens, especially, you know, some things just can't wait. But I'm wondering when things get really hectic and crazy and things feel overwhelming sometimes, what are some of your habits and routines that keep you grounded and productive? That others can look into as well?

Great question. Um, I mean, for me it's the, the simple things. Like, I love going outside, I love just going and getting some air, and I go try and go for a daily walk, um, at least. So that's like a big thing for me. It'll often help to clear my head. I'm lucky I've got other, I guess, passions as well. I've got a big football fan, plus for Brighton, which can add to my stress, but on the other hand Brighton win, then I quickly forget about all the, all the challenges I'm facing in Maratona because, you know, you can't beat the feeling of a Brighton win. But then it's also mainly then connecting with like family and friends. Like, for me, that's crucial. I try and find a, a nice balance, and although if the workload's brutal at times, it's still important for me to make sure I'm still spending time with, yeah, with my girlfriend and with my family and like This weekend I'm back in Sussex with my, with my parents and there's just instantly every time I feel way more relaxed the second I step foot in the house. So I think it's important to have, like I say, a few habits or a routine, which I take quite seriously to try and make sure I'm optimized and just little things like I'm always prioritizing my sleep to a lot of people as well, because I always—

8 hours or a bit less?

I normally push for more.

Okay.

I'm generally more of an 8 to 10 AM, so a lot of early bedtimes. But I think, yeah, you're only as good as your health, I think. So have to try and remain charged and actually have the energy to do, to be as persistent as you can be. Yeah.

You mentioned balance, but when you try and balance things out, do they balance on the same week, on the same day, in the same month, or even in the same year?

Probably not, I guess. Probably not.

I'm speaking from experience here, but That's why I wanted to—

yeah, definitely. I mean, it does change quite a lot, especially within our space, because we're busiest in summer. Like, I know that summer is going to be complete carnage with stock moving everywhere, festivals, events, trying to manage everything going whilst there's just inevitably things are gonna be falling apart. So yeah, generally speaking, it's going to be a lot harder to find that balance in the summer months, whereas January, February, I love because it's a chance to sort of regroup and try and, yeah, plan the year. Things aren't, you know, as busy naturally, um, particularly being a booze product. It's a very quiet month. So yeah, that's probably where more balance comes into it.

So dry January is a good month for you to recharge after a crazy fourth quarter, and that's how you find your balance in a year more so than on a monthly or a weekly basis.

Yeah, definitely.

I think, I think that's a great lesson to wrap up our conversation today, Rob. It's been great to hear all about Arrowtown, how you got here and where you're going next. And I wish you the best of luck in your journey.

Thank you very much, Daniel. Thanks for having me on. That was great.

Thanks for sticking till the end for another great episode of Millennial Masters. But don't keep this to yourself. Please share the wisdom with someone else, and it will also help me spread the word. Don't miss out on my book club and extra features. Get them in your inbox every week. Simply subscribe on millennialmasters.net. Catch you next week.