Outworking everyone is a terrible strategy 💣 Mike Jones

If you're willing to just work crazy hard and forget everything else in your life, you're probably going to be quite successful. But are you going to be happy?

That's the argument. If you outwork everybody else, then you will move further ahead, right?

Yeah. But at the same time, I've never gone into a team and they're not willing to work hard. A lot of the time they're just being busy fools and it's actually trying to work hard that's holding them back. And if you look at some of the best businesses in the world, it's not that they just outwork everybody else, it's that they work on the right things better. So I think just saying, if you outwork everyone else, you'll get ahead, is unhelpful to an extent. On the surface, that makes sense, but we do need to dig a little deeper into it and what it means to you. Otherwise, it can be quite unhelpful.

This week's Millennial Master is Mike Jones, founder of Better Happy. He built a thriving CrossFit business from scratch, then walked away when it started destroying his well-being. After years in the military and months in monasteries, Mike's mission is now clear: helping founders succeed without burning out. In this episode, we talk about why outworking everyone is a trap and what to do instead, how to spot burnout before it takes over your life, and why the workplace is becoming the new religion and what that means for modern leadership.

Millennial Masters is proudly sponsored by Jolt, the UK's top web hosting service. Whether you're launching a WordPress site or scaling up a custom app, every great project needs a reliable home. That's why Jolt has hosting plans starting at just £3.95 a month, with unbeatable deals on domain registrations too. Why Jolt? It's a no-brainer. There's no waiting around with support within 30 seconds on live chat. Your site stays live no matter what with over 99.99% network uptime. And you can also pay with Bitcoin or American Express, so you can rack up those points too. How good is that? Sign up today and enjoy your first 30 days free. 3 months free. Head to jolt.co.uk to get started.

Mike, welcome to Millennial Masters. How are you today?

Very good. How are you?

Great, thank you, and looking forward to our insightful chat today. And that's because I know your story starts when you were 20. You didn't want to go to uni like most of your friends did, but you also wanted to escape your hometown. So you decided to join the military, right?

Yeah, that was my easy route out. It's definitely not an exciting, passion-driven story. I just wanted out of my hometown, didn't want to go to uni. So I'm like, hmm, the army seems like a viable option to get me out. And that was it. That was my reason for joining.

And you were in the army for 5 years, including 2 back-to-back tours in Afghanistan. How did that pan out?

So, because I was— I joined the Intelligence Corps and I've always had quite good fitness levels, and a lot of the people in the Intelligence Corps don't have particularly high fitness levels. So basically I got spotted early to go and work with the Special Forces, like attached to them. So that was a really kind of unique opportunity, but that then meant that, um, I went to Afghanistan quite early on with the Special Boat Service because the Special Air Service was still in Iraq. And then it's a very small team that's attached to the Special Forces. So essentially I had all this kind of knowledge and experience that was very bespoke. So I kind of got back, had a month off, and then they're like, you're going again. You're like, oh, okay, brilliant.

But it wasn't all smooth sailing there, was it?

No, not at all. So I think I, in the military, I experienced the best of and the worst of leadership and the best and the worst of culture. So like working with the Special Forces is probably one of the best cultures that you can be in, in regards to your professional an organization and a team that support each other in a professional way with incredible leadership. But then the mainstream army, a lot of it is just, you know, dictatorial and not a very positive culture. So I kind of experienced both, and it was quite difficult to go from 2 years at SAS starting at the kind of peak and then coming back into the mainstream army and dealing with a lot of issues and bullying and bad stuff. So yeah, the last couple of years I was like, I've had enough of this.

And what was the point you decided that you had enough of of it. You said you had some experiences with bullying and the leadership there. I'm guessing they weren't able to do anything relating to that.

Yeah, so I had a real big clash with quite a strong personality who was senior to me, and he decided to make my life quite difficult. And the system of the military is very top-down, and although on the surface it's democratic. It's really not. And if you've— if you clash with somebody senior to you, they have full power to make your life very miserable. It's quite a lot. I noticed the stories in the news, you know, there's quite a lot of stories of people committing suicide because they just feel trapped and they get bullied and they get belittled. And you have like smear campaigns. Yeah, if you— if you clash with the wrong person, they can make your life very difficult in the military. And that's what I did. And that kind of led to me— I mean, I'm glad it happened now because I probably would have stayed in because it was relatively comfortable in regards to income and lifestyle other than having to go to Afghanistan. But I think having this clash with this person, you know, it was around 2000 and I think it was not long after 2008, this, this part, you know, the economy was in pieces. So there was a lot of fear keeping people in jobs they don't like, including me. Uh, so I think if I hadn't had this clash with this person, then I wouldn't, probably wouldn't have left and I wouldn't live the life that I live now, which I'm very fortunate to have. Yeah, I think everything happens for a reason. So even though I, you know, I wouldn't wish it on anybody, I'm kind of glad it happened.

And you left and came back to the UK, but you only stayed for 3 days.

Yeah. So I left, I left the military, came home to my hometown for 3 days and decided, nah, I can't settle down back in my hometown. So I got a one-way ticket to Thailand.

So what happened in Thailand? I take it it wasn't your typical whole journey there?

Well, it wasn't just Thailand. So I got the one-way ticket to Thailand, and then I was basically away for just under 3 years, 2 and a half years. Uh, I spent the first month in Thailand— I'd love to tell you it was a, you know, a fantastic soul-searching journey, but actually the first month I basically just got drunk and felt really happy that I was no longer owned by the military. It's quite a strange thing when you're in the army because you, you are a number and you are owned. Like, they, they can decide what you do. Um, very often my weekends would go lastminute.com because something was happening around the world that we all had to be on. So you have very little control over your life when you're in the military. To come out 5 years of that and then be on a beach in Thailand with nobody telling me what to do, I was like, this is amazing. So I just basically decompressed and got drunk and had a good time for a month. Uh, and then after that I went to Australia, and then I did 2 years in Australia, but in between year 1 and year 2, I went and lived on monastery— I lived on a monastery in Nepal for 3 months, and then Went back to Australia, then after Australia, I went back to Thailand and lived in a monastery in Thailand. So I got really into kind of Buddhism. So that second, that after the first month in Thailand, the next couple of years was a lot of soul searching and getting a little bit spiritual, a little bit philosophical, philosophical, should I say.

Soul searching. What do you learn about it when you go and join a monastery in Nepal or in Thailand? Is it like people see it in films or? It's much more of a chilled and possibly austere life.

Yeah, the latter. So I think there is stuff like that maybe in the, I don't know where the Shaolin monks are, I think they're in China, right? But yeah, most of the monasteries are very peaceful places where you go to live a, yeah, an austere lifestyle, like a simple lifestyle. You rid yourself of possessions and basically what you're trying to do on a monastery is rid yourself of distractions, external distractions, so that you can focus on your internal world and learn to understand your own mind and have a healthier relationship with your own mind. So it was very similar, to be honest, the experience in Nepal and Thailand. It was pretty much the same focus, living a very simple lifestyle, take, trying to find enjoyment and peace in boring everyday tasks such as sweeping the floor. Lots of reading as well. I did do a silent retreat where you had no reading, no nothing, no extra that. Yeah, no distractions. That was quite difficult. But I only did that for a week and the monks do it for 3 years, which is crazy.

So what did you find about yourself during these 3 years of traveling and altogether about half a year living with monks in remote areas?

So I think the biggest realization that I had was actually before I'd lived on the monasteries, but that the monastery experience has reinforced this. I read a book called The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama. And I really had a complete paradigm shift in my mind when reading that book. And what I learned from that book is that we have a poor understanding of what it means to be happy in the Western world. And in the Eastern world, they've got a— obviously I can't speak for the whole of the Eastern world, but you know, in certain Buddhist cultures and lots of different places in the East, they have a different understanding of what it means to be happy. And it's much more to do with being at peace with yourself and feeling fulfilled in your life as opposed to feeling ecstatic and having pleasurable experiences, which I think is what we push in the West.

So that changed your mindset totally from, say, drinking, partying, and finding all sorts of escapes to changing your mindset.

Yeah. So it affected me in two ways. So the first is it changed what I was prioritizing and aiming for in life. So like you just said, you know, before I would think I was aiming for stuff, status, the right relationship, you know, all of these external things that you tell yourself are going to be the key to you being happy.

And we're conditioned to do so by the society and world we live in here in the West, at least, as you put it.

Yeah, because it supports consumerism, right? And it supports the economy. So yeah, we're encouraged to be consumers to a point where it's obviously quite detrimental. And but the second thing, so yeah, help me think differently and prioritize different things in my life. And then the second way it affected me was it helped me understand myself better and look within, so to create a healthier relationship with myself, which I think a lot of us aren't particularly good at. We're not very good at being at peace in our own company. So it helped me do that, which helped me stop drinking and stop living a party lifestyle and stop feeling like I constantly have to be doing stuff and be able to read and be peaceful and enjoy the things that are around us and be still.

But you still weren't happy, were you? Because you decided to leave that life behind and come back to the UK.

Yes. I don't know if I'd say I was unhappy, but I felt from those experiences that I should do something with my life and with the opportunities I've got available to me being born in a relatively wealthy Western country, which might be a point of contention at the moment with the economy, but comparatively to the rest of the world.

Still in G7.

Yeah, exactly. So I felt that I needed to, yeah, come back to the UK and use the opportunities I had available to me to, to do some good in the world or to try and make good use of the skills that I have, the knowledge I have, and the opportunities.

And that's when you returned to the UK and started your first business from scratch.

Yeah, so I, I knew I don't really like being employed. I'm very entrepreneurial in the mindset, you know, I like to be creative. I don't like to be constrained within limits barriers. And, you know, I don't like to have to ask somebody if I can go on holiday. I don't like any of that stuff. So, and I'm quite creative. So I'm big picture thinking. So yeah, I knew I wanted to own a business. I didn't have any clue what I wanted to do. There's no business acumen in my family. And I didn't have any experience in business. In fact, I'd say the military is probably the opposite of business. It's very kind of rigid and bureaucratic. So I didn't really know what I wanted to do. But I knew I wanted to do a business where I was creating my own life and helping people be healthier, happier in some way.

And that took the shape of a CrossFit gym.

Yeah, so I'd got really into— I'd always been into my fitness. I was a, I was a physical training instructor in the military as well. I've always had an interest in fitness and it's always been something that I've kind of enjoyed as a hobby. Uh, when I was in Australia, I, I— some of the guys I worked for in a part-time job, they were training at this thing called CrossFit, which I never really heard of. And I was like, sounds cool. So I went gave it a try, and I really, I really bought into it. I thought it was a great concept and a great methodology. When I came back to the UK, I was like, what do I want to do? I don't really know. I want to help people. Somebody I know had a, a big gym, but they had a small unit on the side that they weren't using, and I had— I was having a chat with them. They were like, oh yeah, you could use that if you want. And I was like, oh, I could turn this into a little CrossFit gym because there's nothing like that around here.

So yeah, that kind of That was just as the CrossFit concept was starting to pick up as well in the UK. What, what year was that? Just to give some context.

So that was, uh, 2017, I think. 17, 18, about 2017, 18.

Yeah. Yeah. So you started your CrossFit gym and things took a positive turn for you, didn't they?

Yeah, like, I didn't really know anything about business. Um, I didn't have a lot of money. I mean, that's a good thing about a CrossFit gym is you, is, you know, you don't need loads of machine— we don't need any machines. So it's much lower, um, cost to start one up than it is to start up a standard gym where you're going to need to lease a lot of equipment. So you can do it relatively low cost. I think I started mine I chucked about 15 grand of my own savings in, which is all I had left in my name. And then I got a 20 grand loan from the bank, and maybe like another 5 grand borrowed from family and stuff. So I think it was all in all about 50 grand to get the thing started and off the ground.

And things went well, didn't they? But sorry, that's not as much for your personal well-being.

Yeah, so things did go well. I was quite lucky really, because I knew nothing about marketing, nothing about sales. I, you know, I'm a typical kind of systemizer. I'm good at delivering. So I hadn't really thought about marketing and sales. I definitely had the mindset of just do a good job and people will come. And that worked to an extent. Obviously what I didn't probably appreciate at the time is because we were next to another gym, we were getting a lot of members coming through from there because CrossFit-style training or personal training, uh, small group personal training, a lot of that is fed by people that have got fed up with a standard gym and they're not getting results. So kind of had like Perfect location. Yeah, exactly. Uh, yeah, we did, we did quite well. We, we grew. Yeah. In fact, if you look at the numbers, it was, it was doing really well. Like we doubled in revenue and profit every year, which is fantastic. And, uh, yeah, we ended up getting our own bigger facility and, and really, really doing well. But about 3, probably from about 3, 2 and a half to 3 years into the journey, it started to have a negative impact on me and my life. And it was all because of me. It was all because of the way I was running the business. But I didn't really— probably didn't realize that at the time. But yeah, I was— the business was getting bigger. I grew a team. And it should be that as you grow your team and you get more systemized, like, your business gets easier to run and you have a healthy lifestyle. But what I was doing was letting the business get on top of me. So I was just working more and more and more and justifying that all the time and not taking holidays and not spending time with my partner. So yeah, it's that, you know, this thing that's supposed to give me freedom and lifestyle and fulfillment was actually draining me and making me feel miserable.

So what did you decide to do about it?

Well, I, I've always been one to learn. So I spent money on mentors and programs, which is really helpful. That's why we grew so well. But a lot what these didn't address was the underlying psychological challenges I was having, you know. So it's all well and good telling somebody what to do, but if you don't understand why they're not doing what they need to do, and you don't address those issues, it's, you know, you're missing a trick. So I did make the business better. And I did give myself some time off, but I still stayed stuck in the business. And just probably just as we were getting to a point of it being healthy enough that I could just step away quite a bit, COVID came along, which meant a lot of change again to, you know, go into survival and reactivity mode. And one of the mentors I had at the time was like, I don't think this is what you should do. He said, I think you want to focus on something different. It's going to take a lot of time and effort and work to keep this thing not only just alive through COVID, but like getting it back to where it is post-COVID, because you obviously lose your members in a gym over COVID, 2 years of lockdown. So yeah, I closed that down about 6 months into COVID, and I was pretty burnt out at that point. I was pretty stressed, pretty tired. I felt like the shadow of my former self. I think the thing about business-minded people is we like to be positive and motivated. So when we're not feeling positive and motivated, It's a double-edged sword because then we're being really hard on ourselves for not being positive and motivated. So you go down on this downward spiral. So yeah, I was pretty burnt out and miserable by the end of that experience.

But did you know that it was burnout? From my experience as well, when you're stuck into your own business and priorities, responsibilities, staff, you don't in a way realize what's happening around you or what's happening to you? Did you have a conscious realization that that was happening or was it through the help of your wider support circle and mentors and how was it manifesting for you?

I don't think I consciously knew I was getting burnt out. I don't think if I went back in time and asked myself, oh, you know, what's up? I don't think I'd have said, oh yeah, I'm, I'm getting burnt out. I think I'd have said, oh, I'm just stressed and miserable and getting more stressed. I guess it's a bit like being unhealthy, right? You know, you, when you're unhealthy and you've got low energy, because it's a slow transformation, you just think that's normal. And I think, I think, yeah, because it happened over a 3-year period or 5-year period, I think I am, yeah, I don't think I was consciously aware that I was burnt out, but I knew I was miserable and borderline depressed. And I knew that was because I knew I was the issue. Like, I wasn't blaming anything out. I knew it was my own mindset and my own challenges. Um, so now it's quite obvious to me that it was burnout, but I guess at the time I just felt really stressed and didn't have a label to put on that. And I probably, to be honest with you, didn't realize till about 2 months after I'd closed the gym how bad I was.

So what are the signs for anybody tuning in and maybe not realizing that they're in that state?

So I don't think it's— I don't think one of the signs is working a lot because I think it's really easy to say, you know, work a lot and you get burnt out, but there's lots of people that do work a lot and they've got no risk of burnout. So I think the actual issue is, is the, is the stress. So I think that's what you need to be really clear on. And nobody's going to sit here and tell you that you can run a business and not be stressed, because it's just not how it works. You know, you're always gonna have stress in a business. It's always gonna have stress in life. And in fact, if we didn't have stress, we'd all be pools of jelly on the floor, wouldn't we? We need stress. I think the issue is, if you're a business owner, when you're not managing that stress well, that you're going to know that because you're feeling highly stressed a lot of the time. And you're not feeling relaxed and peaceful very often at all. So the business is constantly on your mind. And if, and if you're resonating with that, like that, you're on a path to being completely burnt out, which is going to result in you having to close your business or having, having extremely poor health. So you've got to think about it logically and be like, okay, I'm stressed a lot. I'm really not feeling very peaceful, hardly ever. That's an issue with me, not the business, and I need to fix that. Otherwise, I'm going to get so stressed, the business closes anyway.

And you close that business and decided to fix yourself and others. How was— how did that turning point come about?

So basically what happened was I closed, I closed the business and I was like, okay, I need to do some work on me because I was the only issue in that business. Like the team were great, the clients were great. The business was doing well. So I knew I was the issue. You know, I didn't have anybody else to blame. So I did some work with psychologists and counselors and business mentors, you know, and I, I wanted to learn and do a lot of— I'm a very like logical thinker, so I like looked into a lot of business owners that aren't stressed versus are to see what the key differences were. And I kind of came to this point where I had to make a decision, and my— because I, because I did get money for the gym, you know, I sold on the assets and the business was debt-free, you know, and all that stuff. So I had a bit of cash in the bank, not a lot, but enough to kind of keep me float for a few months. And I remember thinking to myself, right, I've got two choices here. I can either have another business, or I can go into having a job. I think every business owner on the planet has definitely gone through that process of thinking, would it just be easier to get a job? So I remember thinking to myself, well, what do I do? Do I get a job? Or do I start a business again? And part of me was like, I don't really want to start a business again, because I'm just going to stress myself out. And I don't want to feel like that again. And then the other part of me was like, it'd be nice to have a job and, you know, just not have to worry about all the admin and all the stress press and just get paid a set fee every month. But I knew deep down that I would be bored in a job within 3 to 12 months. I just knew. So I kind of came to this conclusion, I have no choice, like I have to start another business. It's the only way I'm going to feel fulfilled. It's the only way I'm going to feel happy, like, and aligned to my values. But I need to figure out how to own a business and not be a stressed asshole, basically, you know, how to not be like an idiot and let it consume me and let that have a negative impact on me and the people around me. So That was the conclusion I came to. I need to figure out how to be a happy business owner, essentially. And I started talking about my story on social media, but also building the tools and assets that I needed to stop me having a negative relationship with my business. So I started sharing those, and then that led to traction and people interacting with the posts and us getting some work with different businesses I didn't expect. And then I was like, oh, this is a— this is cool. This is a business. Like, people in leadership management positions and people that own businesses want help not being stressed and burnt out. So let's show them how to do it.

And is that the point where you formed your current business and decided to take it to the next level and making it your full-time gig? You said you had a bit of money left over from selling off the assets of the gym and some of your savings, etc., which was carrying you through for for a few months while you were on this transformation journey? What, what was the point where you, you decided, okay, I got this coming on now, this will be my, my full-time job from, from now on, or my full-time business?

So I think that's a constant evolution. Through my network, through contacts, and through social media, I managed to get a few jobs that I hadn't really anticipated or thought about. So I always want to deliver. So I put a lot of time and effort into making sure that we were delivering on those projects that we got. And all the time I was thinking, okay, what's the business here? You know, what's the business that I'm willing to commit to that's going to tick all the boxes? This is one of the models that I talk about with business owners. It's like, is it going to work for you, the owner? Is it going to work for your clients? Is it going to work for your team? And is it going to work for the bank account? Because all four of those things need to be fulfilled in a business, right? It's an ecosystem of relationships. I mean, that process really, if I'm honest, went on for a couple of years, you know, we were getting different work, some were corporate, some were small businesses. It's probably only, to be honest with you, in the last— I mean, what month are we in now? March? Probably only in the last 6 to 12 months where I've actually been really clear on, okay, this is what we're going to take forward. This is what I can see doing for, you know, the period of time that needs to be done for to turn it into a good business. But yeah, I think there was a good couple of years of just being quite broad and seeing what opportunities come about and figuring out what I think the scalable model is.

So what is the scalable model then for Better Happy?

So we've got two arms of the business. We do training for leaders and managers in corporates.

Yeah.

So that's really good. I really enjoy that. It's quite fulfilling. We get really good results.

You work with some big names already, right?

Yeah. So our biggest, our biggest partner is Travelodge. And so we've done quite a lot with Travelodge and their management community within their headquarters, done some advice and guidance for the NHS and worked with lots of other different corporates on workshops and things like that. The problem with the corporate is it's a little bit harder to scale because our— it's a slow sales process. So if you work with corporates, you'll know that, you know, you've— it's not like, oh yeah, we want that thing, let's do it. Not most of the time. It's quite a slow sales process. It's very bespoke to each client. So it's quite manpower intensive. There's also an element of they like having the faces that they know. Like a lot of the stuff I do, Trevor, it's got to be Mike. And there's definitely a way to move beyond that. But it's just a little bit hard to scale. Um, and it's also—

Let's just pause there for a second because I've spoken about this with a few other founders and entrepreneurs who started the business in, in a similar way. And we're going to call it personal branding because that sounds exactly something that you've done. You started by sharing your experiences, you got traction on that, and then you started doing these workshops, etc., as yourself, and people wanted Mike. They didn't want somebody else. But that was also the barrier to scaling. And in a way, the personal branding trap. How did you decide that you're going to move away from this one? What's your workaround?

Well, we do a lot of— so the second arm of the business is we do a lot of work with small and medium business owners. The emphasis there is much more on the outcome and the system. You know, they still come in for your personal brand, it's your personal brand that raises awareness a lot of the time. But you sell the outcome. And you could definitely do that with corporates as well. But it's just a little bit more— maybe it's limiting belief, but it's a little bit more difficult to do, I think. I think they get, you know, but it's all to do with the expectations you lay from the start. Because here's the thing, if a corporate comes in because they like what you're talking about, and you tell them from day one, oh yeah, I don't— we can bring this into your business, I'm not going to deliver it, or I'm not going to deliver all of it, my team will, I think because you've made that clear from the start, it's not an issue.

So as long as you make that clear from the start, then it won't be a barrier to scaling a business that is in the business of consultancy, for example, and training. Yeah, and I think domain—

one of the things we do with our small and medium owner clients is we say, have an aligned strategy in your business, right? So, so your business strategy should be based off your own strategy, in my opinion. So you should be thinking about what do you want from your business, and then your business plan should be reverse engineered from there. So if you— a lot of people, when they start the business, it's— they're quite happy to be involved in everything, you know, cool, go and build your business around that. But then you're going to get to a point where you're like, I don't like being involved in everything. I quite like to be able to go on holiday and have a team and, you know, not feel like I have to be there otherwise the business isn't running. So you're like, cool, So then you need to adapt the business to that. So I do think there's an element of not trying to build the perfect system from day one. I think there's an element of just accepting that there's a discovery process and phase and you got to figure stuff out. And you've also just— a lot of it comes down to the mindset, right? You've got to just— when you need to change stuff in your business, it's having the confidence that that will work and not staying stuck in this. It's not possible. I have to stay here and the way it is, and it's not making me happy, but I can't change it. You're like, well, That's not going to lead you to a good place. So you've got to challenge that way of thinking. Otherwise you're going to be destined to be a stressed owner.

So how do you escape that?

Thinking rationally is definitely the way that has helped me and helps our clients. So I think it's if you're really stuck in your own head and you know that you're not— the way that you're thinking isn't being beneficial and is making you stressed to an unhealthy amount, like try and find—

as long as you realize it, as long as you realize it.

Well, you can't, you can't help somebody that doesn't realize they need to be helped, and that includes yourself, right? If you're, if you didn't realize that— I've definitely had chats with business owners and they're like chronically stressed. They're working 7 days a week and I'm like, well, you can fix this, but we're going to need to work on these things. Like, yeah, maybe, maybe next year. Okay, you can't, you know, unless you recognize it is a, is a major issue. Yeah, you're just going to stay, you're going to stay comfortably uncomfortable, which is where you're in a place that you're not happy but it's not making you unhappy enough that you have to do something about it. I think that's where most people live.

One of the things that you spoke about in another podcast, which I'd like to discuss, is the role of the modern workplace. You're the entrepreneur or the business owner at the top. The business owner would've been an entrepreneur at one point anyway, before the business systemized and scaled to a certain point. But then they need to hire people to expand, build them around systems, and build a healthy business that in terms can run without them. But I think something that some might call controversial, you said that workplace is the new religion.

Slightly controversial, yeah.

In a way, your office and your workplace becomes your church because in the modern society that's become more secular and religion doesn't play as an important role as it used to play 100 years ago. What you do, you identify with what you do, with your job.

Yeah, I agree.

But But, but that's what I'm wondering, how did you get to that viewpoint? What, what made you believe that? Because some people are pretty happy just to job hop, but at the same time, and they're not really looking for fulfillment in their role. So there's a disconnect there, isn't it?

Yeah. So, so in trying to understand myself and the world, I've studied a lot of history, philosophy, different cultures, and I think and psychology. And I think one of the things that's really interesting to understand is what motivates people, right? Why are people driven to do what they do? And obviously we're all different, but we're also all very, very similar. So if you think about most of the majority of human history, the way we live today is unlike anything we've ever seen in human history before. And obviously all people could say that at their time, but the change that we see into the way we live today is exponentially different to that of the past. And most of human history has been We've been trying to survive really, because life's been full of very challenging challenges. And I'm not saying there's no challenges today, but comparatively to even 100 years ago, our lives are a walk in the park today.

When you say challenges, I'm assuming you're referring to threats to your life and physical well-being. Yeah.

Having enough food to survive, not having to worry about where the next meal is coming from, having access to clean water, having access to showers, having access to a job where it's not going to kill you early because you're in the coal mines. You know, this is all 100 years ago. So waking up in the day and having the luxury to think about, hmm, what do I feel like doing today? Like, our ancestors didn't have that. They were waking up and they're thinking, what do I need to do today to put food on the table? Otherwise we're going to starve. So, and there's still people in the world, many people that live in that reality. So, um, it's very different today. And, and what, what the difference is, I, I think, is that in the past, people worked to survive. In a country like the UK, I know this still happens around the world, but people were predominantly working to survive. There was mass unemployment, lots of poverty. So they did a job and they were happy that that job took them out of poverty and stopped them being one of the many unemployed. And then, but so that gave them like survival needs and physiological needs. So roof over the head and, but people still crave community. There's a great model called Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? So the bottom two are safety and physiological.

So humans are always going to try and after those two things first.

Have I got food on my back? Have I got food on my back? Have I got clothes on my back, food on my table, a roof over my head? Can I provide? Right, those are the two most important things. And if those things aren't taken care of— so food and shelter, essentially. Yeah, food, food, shower, safety. Yeah. So after that, once we've got those two things taken care of, we then start to crave love and belonging. So we want to be in a community then. So think back to Industrial Revolution period, people predominantly found that through religion. So they work to survive, And then they found their community and connectivity through the local community and through religion. You know, we got together with people, had a shared thing that we all agreed on, religion, and that we worked towards. And that gave us an excuse to find that human connection and that belonging. And I think the difference today is, is like, a lot of people aren't working because they have to. I mean, the reality is in the UK, if you don't work, you're probably going to get looked after by the benefit system. So you don't have to work. I'm not going to say you have a great life, but you don't have to work. Like, there's— it's very unlikely in the UK— I know it happens— that you're gonna go without food if you don't work. It's very unlikely. Um, although I know at the moment there's lots of issues around this, but generally, again, comparatively to 100 years ago, so people aren't working because they have to survive as much. People— a lot of people are working because they want to. And people are less religious and are— and less connected due to things like the internet, right? We don't go out in our community as much. We're less religious. We don't do this. We don't have a reason within our community, many of us, to socially connect.

You could argue that the internet and social media has made the world smaller and made us all more aware of the have and have-nots around the world, even though the side effect was that this was a false impression because you think you are connected because you see something on your phone that you are possibly addicted to. For hours a day, as studies show, but you don't go out and do those connections yourself anymore.

Yeah, it's increased quantity, decreased quality. I think it's like there's more connection on a kind of shallow level, but there's meaning depth behind that connection is very low, like actually having meaningful relationships, in-depth conversations, meaningful conversations, you know, which obviously would have been facilitated through religious and religion and spirituality, even in your local community, right? You're going to have a deeper conversation with your neighbor if you're regularly hanging out on the street and your kids are playing together than you are commenting on Daniel Ionescu's photo on Facebook because he's been on holiday. It's a much shallower connection.

But people don't really do that anymore either. In a way, overall engagement, and you being a millennial, you in a way grew up with the internet and social media era, and you remember it before and after. And possibly you'll be able to make the same comparison that I do, that say in the second half of the internet era, the genuine interactions and the altruistic interactions that people have online are decreasing compared to how it was and/or felt at the beginning of the connected era.

Yeah, that would make sense to me. I don't probably don't have that much in-depth knowledge of it, to be honest. I see it for what it is. I think there's pros to it, definitely.

That's how you got into what you're doing now, in a way, by posting about your experiences online.

Exactly, yeah. Like, I feel very lucky to be alive in the time where we've got the internet. You know, there's plenty of issues with it, but to just say, to write it off as bad, I think is a massive mistake. The quality of life generally across the world is increasing. So, and I think the internet's contributed to that massively.

So coming back to the workplace being the new religion, how do then people find purpose in their job if they do it for money? You said some people don't have to work in any meaningful way, but the majority of people still do.

Yeah. So they do work for money and obviously we fulfill their desire for money by paying them. So, so we're you know, if you pay somebody to do their job, then you're fulfilling a need for that person. In the UK, employee engagement rates are consistently around 10%. That means 90% of people that go to work aren't actually engaged in that work. They're doing the minimum required to not get fired. And I think the reason for that is, is that we're still relying on Industrial Revolution era management and leadership methods, which is tell somebody what to do and pay them. And they'll be happy. But the reality is today is people do want meaning in their lives and they do want connection. And you can absolutely do that in the workplace, but you've got to invest in people and you've got to treat people as partners more than employees. And there's lots of different ways you can do this, but one of the most obvious ones is linking people's work to the impact that it's having. So like, what's the vision of the company? What's the goals of this department? How does the work that you do contribute to this department? How could you do it better? What's your ideas around how you can make this business better? And you— and what you're doing is you've got to turn it from just being transactional work to being a partnership relationship. And that does two things, right? It makes the work meaningful, and it brings people together, because you have to take time to do this stuff. And people get to talk, they get to have meaningful conversations, they get to feel like they're contributing, which is great for their self-esteem and their, and their personal confidence. It's great for the business,. But the problem is most businesses are still stuck in top-down, we tell you what to do, we pay you, you get on with it mindset, which is bad for the business because the staff aren't engaged, bad for the staff because they don't feel appreciated or valued or heard. And it's a lose-lose situation. But it's what people are stuck in. And people— businesses struggle to make this change because they don't think they can justify the time, which is very backwards.

So in a nutshell, what would most businesses companies have to change mindset or systems-wise in order to align themselves with this new reality that they are in a way responsible for making their employees happy?

You've got to take the emphasis away from tasks and towards outcomes and get everybody on board with that. So instead of saying, these are your tasks, get on with them, we've got to be like, what's the outcomes we're trying to achieve as a business? Why are we trying to achieve them? Right, get everybody on board and let's, let's help each other out. And you— and, and there's obviously more structure around that. You have your meeting pulse and your structure for how often you meet and what you're talking about. And you do have to be structured with it. You can't just be, let's chuck some beanbags in a room and hope the magic happens. You know, there is structure behind this. There is, there is structure behind this stuff. And, you know, you have to overcome human psychology to an extent because we all are scared of failure and we don't like to put unnecessary pressure on ourselves. So if we don't put things like accountability systems in place, we will tend to drift away from making new stuff happen and just fall back to the day-to-day. But that's not because it's what we want, it's to do with fear. So you do have to put some structure behind this stuff. And it does take a little bit of work. But you need to shift away from just, we pay people to do stuff. And you need to shift towards, we're all partners in an organization, and we've got outcomes to achieve. How can we do that best?

So is this something easier to do in a small or medium business? Or in a larger business? Do the challenges become exponential when you're bigger? Or actually, when you're smaller, and there's more hard-headed people involved?

But generally speaking, it's a little bit easier in small and medium businesses, because you haven't got the bureaucracy that you get in larger businesses. Large businesses are essentially lots of small businesses working together. If you've— yeah, it's generally a little bit easier in small and medium businesses. But it's also very, very possible in large companies, you've just got to make sure that the people at the top are on onboard. It's not something that you can try and force from the bottom up. Like, you need— if the people at the top are on board and willing to embrace this and understand it, and they buy into it, it'll work. If they're resisting it, but giving this kind of training and support to their teams as some kind of throwaway exercise, then it won't work.

Now, Mike, as we kind of like move into tapering off our discussion, there's always something that I ask at the end of my interviews, and myself and most millennials, masters I've spoken to say there's no success without sacrifice. And I asked them what sacrifices have they done to be where they are today. But something that caught my attention on, on your website was that you say this is a myth, and you're actually actively working on making sure that people stop believing that there is no success without sacrifice. Can we get into that as our final topic of discussion?

Yeah, of course. It's kind of multifaceted. So I like the message success without sacrifice. I like that message. I think it's important. And I think it's to an extent, it's unhelpful when we're telling ourselves, I can own a business and live a fulfilling lifestyle if I'm willing to work so hard that it has a negative impact on my, on my health. So there's, there's that kind of arm of the message. But to another extent, you do have to make sacrifices to, to, um, to achieve stuff in life. And it might just be sacrifice of bad habits, it might just be the sacrifice of your limited way of thinking. So what I'm getting across is I don't think it's a good way to think that you can be successful if you're willing to make your life very difficult. I don't think that's a great way of thinking. You've got people like Alex Hormozi, who are incredible business people, right? And they're very open about the fact that their life is business and very little else. They've streamlined every aspect of their life so that they can spend as much time either on business or having some time with their partner. So I think there's a lot of this message. And I mean, it's right, right? If you're willing to just work crazy hard and forget everything else in your life, you're probably going to be quite successful. But are you going to be happy?

That's the argument. If you outwork everybody else, then you will move further ahead, right?

Yeah. But at the same time, I've never gone into a team and they're not willing to work hard. A lot of the time they're just being busy fools and we're making them— it's actually they're trying to work hard that's holding them back. And if you look at some of the best businesses in the world, It's not that they just outwork everybody else, it's that they work on the right things better. So I think just saying if you outwork everyone else, you'll get ahead is unhelpful to an extent. It's like saying if you, if you eat less calories than you consume, you'll lose weight. Well, yeah, you will, but those calories could just be Coke and chocolate. You're still going to lose weight, but you're not going to be very healthy and you're going to lose a lot of muscle. So it's, it's like, yes, okay, on the surface that makes sense, but we do need to dig a little deeper into it and what it means to you. Otherwise it can be quite unhelpful. So I mean, you and I know you can't start a business without being willing to work hard. And you're probably going to have to work harder than you would in a normal job. But to tell yourself, like I used to, like, if you really want to be successful, you need to put everything on hold your health, your relationships, your walking, your dog, not forever, not forever, for certain periods of times, like you said, you worked with Daniel Ionescu.

And those sprint moments when you're aiming and leaping towards certain goals, Yeah.

And I, you know, a lot of entrepreneurially minded people work in sprints because it's what they enjoy. You know, I, I like working in sprints and I don't like trying to get a project over the line whilst I'm trying to have this perfect balance of gym and time with my partner. And you know, sometimes I just want to work so hard for a few, just while this stuff's in my head to get over the line. Great.

Do it.

I just think you need to be It's like you said, it's okay if that's a sprint and you're recognizing that. The problem is, is when you try and sprint for a year, um, even in the physical context, that it wouldn't work, obviously, because you're going to get very tired very quickly. Um, so yeah, I, you know, I reward myself. Something that I've been doing in this business, it's worked exceptionally well for the business, is it's like I always have something to look forward to. I always have like a weekend away booked or a holiday booked, which I did not do in business one. And it's completely changed the way I work because number one, I've always got something to look forward to, which makes me justify when I'm having my sprints. But also, even from a just making money perspective, you're like, well, I've got things to pay for, like trips and holidays. And it gives you more of a drive to make your business work because you can get comfortable without that pressure.

I like to end my interviews with some resources for people tuning in. And you already mentioned that there was a book that changed your life, The Art of Happiness by the Dalai Lama. But what moved you on afterwards? I'm curious if there are any other books or authors that you have read their work, or you could recommend it for anybody tuning in, starting or growing a business, or maybe feeling burned out without knowing.

How long have you got?

5 minutes.

Yeah, I think, I think The Art of Happiness is a fantastic one because it's going to change the way that you think about being happy and being fulfilled. There's another one which is a really powerful read called The Happiest Man on Earth by Eddie Jackie, who's a Holocaust survivor but has now passed away. But it's a, a fantastic read. If you're somebody that struggles to switch off and be at peace in your own mind, there's a really nice book that's easy to read called The Way of the Peaceful Warrior by Dan Millman. And it's kind of spirituality dressed in in a really cool and fun story. And I'm just trying to think what's on my top shelf in the office as the most important ones. I'd say, as cheesy as it feels to say, I'd say read Dan Priestley's Key Person of Influence because he helps you think about selling assets and systems instead of time. Because this is a massive transition you've got to go through as a business owner, thinking about selling outcomes and not selling your time. And as soon as you realize that's a reality, And it's actually a win-win outcome for you and your clients. You're like, oh, because before that, you're just trying to sell your time. And that just constantly feels like this uphill battle.

Something— A Key Person of Influence and Oversubscribe have been mentioned by several Millennial Masters. And I've broken down those books for the book club as well and covered it extensively. So it's great to hear that it's influencing so many people in our generation.

Yeah, you got to think of it. I think a big transition we go through as business owners is when we start our businesses, especially when we're naive, like I was in my first one, I probably still am now, but unaware of it. We think that as long as we just build a good thing, that it will sell itself because there's need for it and there's demand for it and it will just work. And then we go through this realization that, okay, if we've not got a sales and marketing machine, it doesn't matter how good our thing is, we're never gonna going to do particularly well, and we're always going to feel like we're on the back foot. So I think part of the owner journey is, especially being a happy and fulfilled owner, is realizing that your job is as much to sell and market your service as it is to deliver it. And I'd be a fool not to recommend my own book, which is the Happy Business Revolution.

Okay. That's a good point to wrap up our conversations today. And you've given me now one idea for my next book club recommendation, Mike. Thank you so much for sharing your journey and wisdom today on Millennial Masters.

Brilliant. Thank you for having me on. It's been a pleasure.

Thanks for sticking till the end for another great episode of Millennial Masters. But don't keep this to yourself. Please share the wisdom with someone else, and it will also help me spread the word. Don't miss out on my club and extra features. Get them in your inbox every week. Simply subscribe on millennialmasters.net. Catch you next week.