The cost of saying no: Slow growth, real freedom 🙅‍♀️ | Jordan Stachini

If you don't adapt, then yes, you're going to find it hard and you are probably going to fail. If you just try and keep doing things the way you have always done them with a different set of parameters in front of you, that's probably not going to work. So you have to adapt all the time. And yes, there was the financial crash, there was Brexit, there's constant war, there's all these things happening. You can take those as, right, well, this puts the brakes on things, or you can go, okay, the world has changed, my hand has changed, and therefore I need to play in a different way. If you don't do that, then yes, you do face failure. I just had to deal with the set of circumstances I was given.

This week's Millennial Master is Jordan Stachini, founder of Co+Co. Jordan never planned to start an agency. She just got tired of hauling her bag of tricks from job to job. And when the world locked down, she built something on her own terms. Fast forward, she's turned down outside investment, set ruthless boundaries, and grown a business by choosing the clients she'd actually go for a pint with. In this episode, we talk about why slow, intentional growth wins over chasing scale at all costs, the reality of founder loneliness, burnout, and why setting boundaries is non-negotiable, and how saying no to the wrong work is the key to building a business you actually want. Millennial Masters is brought to you by Jolt, fast, reliable web hosting built for founders. Whether you're launching a WordPress site or scaling an app, Jolt gives your project a rock-solid home starting from just £3.95 a month. You'll get 99.99% uptime, support in under 30 seconds, and flexible payment options including Bitcoin and Amex, so you can rack up those points while you build. Get your first 3 months free at jolt.co.uk. Smart hosting for people building what's next. Jordan, welcome to Millennial Masters. How are you today?

Good, thank you. Warm, but I'm good. How are you?

Likewise. We're both in the UK and experiencing the heatwave. When people are going to listen or tune into this, it might be different, but I'm sure they'll remember it anyway. Let's go straight into it because your story with Co+Co starts 5 years ago, or just over 5 years ago, just before lockdown, when you decided to make some radical changes in your life and start your own business. So take us back to that moment and the tough decisions you had to make.

Co+Co was 5 this year, will be 6 in February next year, and To be honest, it wasn't really like an active decision to start my own business. It's not something that I ever aspired to when I was younger, or I wasn't surrounded by people that had their own businesses. You know, my, my mum and dad didn't have their own businesses. My older sisters didn't have their own businesses. So it wasn't something that I was kind of surrounded by and that was the norm. But I, prior to starting Co+Co, had worked in-house for two quite big property investment companies. And I had been head of Europe and Africa for one, having joined as a marketing exec at kind of 22, 23, and worked my way up to head of Europe and Africa and then left there for a global role. And I was kind of in a situation where I'd done really well. I'd built myself a reputation in the industry. People knew who I was. People knew what I was good at, which was this really kind of commercially focused lean strategy approach to marketing, which is, you know, kind of has followed me into life as an agency owner. And I was just being asked to bring my bag of tricks really to other places. And I guess, you know, being 28 at the time of kind of being head of Europe and Africa and then going into this global role and approaching 30, I wasn't ready for that to be kind of just my gig. And, you know, I thought, potential to have to just do this for the next 30 years and keep taking my bag of tricks and doing the same thing is going to get really boring really quick. So it was through a conversation with someone else who actually owns an agency, and I was chatting to them and they said, you know, just general chat, what's going on and stuff. And I said, you know, I keep getting approached by people to come and do the same thing for them and just don't really know if that's lighting my fire. I don't know if that's the right move for me. He kind of pointed out that, well, you know, what do they want? And I said, they want strategy, they want to know how to do it. And he said, well, then do it for all of them. Go and consult. If all they want is your head, your mind, your brain, you know, then you can sell that to multiple people at the same time. And that had never crossed my mind. It never occurred to me. So, you know, I thought about it for a bit and spoke to my partner at the time about it. And, you know, he inspired me. Kind of opinion was, well, it doesn't work, it doesn't work, but why not give it a go? So the plan was to be a consultant and have more of a lifestyle business. And I'd had roles where I traveled a lot. They were really time-consuming. You know, I was in the office from 7 in the morning till 7 at night quite a lot of the time. And really—

Yeah, traveling is fun, but when you do it for business and you do it regularly and you have flights early in the morning, it suddenly does not feel as fun anymore, does it?

People think— I spent a lot of time in Africa, so I was in South Africa a lot, I was in Kenya a lot, and people think, 'God, that's amazing, like, you must see so many things.' I think I see a taxi, an airport, an aeroplane, a hotel, and then I see an aeroplane, an airport, a taxi. Like, you don't see any of it. You might be going to these places, but you're not on holiday, so you don't necessarily get to enjoy it in the same way. So That was fine at that age, but I knew I didn't want to keep doing that. I knew that wasn't sustainable and it was very unhealthy. And, you know, ultimately, ultimately led to me being very unhealthy and having a very unhealthy lifestyle. So this was kind of a bit more of an opportunity to have ownership over my time and to set my own rules, I guess, about how I wanted, how I wanted things to run. And so I spoke to the people that were kind of offering me things at the time and Luckily, one of them said, yeah, if that's how it's got to work, by consulting for us and doing your own thing, then that's fine. So that was enough for me to be able to leave that salary, you know, that secure income every month and take the leap. And I did. And as I say, it was meant to be me, my laptop, 3, 4 days a week, kitchen table or wherever I wanted to be. And then I say to everyone, it just got out of hand then. And now it's an agency, which I'm incredibly proud of, but it was never, it was never the plan for it, for it to be this.

And shortly after you started, a global event changed everybody's perspective. How did that help you pivot around the model that you were setting up for yourself? Was it in a way? Easier to do things remotely because everybody had to?

Yeah. So it's a question I get asked all the time and I registered the business on the 24th of February, 2020. And on the 24th of March, 2020, the UK went into lockdown for 2 weeks. It was meant to be 2 weeks. And we all know that that ended up being—

they said it was 2. Yeah.

That ended up being a lot, a lot longer. So it wasn't really a pivot because That is the, that is a situation that the business was born into. I didn't have even a couple of weeks of being able to go in and see clients or whatever. It was straight into lockdown conditions. So there wasn't a, this probably isn't the answer people want to hear, but that's just how it was. And, you know, there are things that happen all the time in the world. And I think what people often do is they say, You know, for example, I prior to starting Co+Co, I was working in the property industry and obviously back in 2007, 2008, massive financial crash that had a massive impact on the property industry and things like that. You know, people look to and go, right, well, this changes, you know, this, this, this is massive and this is going to cause us loads of problems. And I think if you look at it like that and you don't look at it as a, okay, this is just now the field of play. If you don't adapt, then yes, you're going to find it hard and you are probably going to fail. If you just try and keep doing things the way you have always done them with a different set of parameters in front of you, that's probably not going to work. So you have to adapt all the time. And yes, you know, there was the financial crash, there was Brexit, there's constant war, there's all these things happening. You can take those as, right, well, this puts the brakes on things, or you can go, okay, The world has changed, my hand has changed, and therefore I need to play in a different way. If you don't do that, then yes, you do face failure, I think. So I just had to deal with the set of, set of circumstances I was given. And my first two clients, I had one in Manchester and I had one in Australia, and I couldn't have had people further apart. And it was no different because I couldn't be in the room with people in Manchester anyway. It was just the, it was just the world at the time that I, that I had to deal with. And I don't really give it any more credit or thought than that, really. It was actually when things started to change and people started to go back to work, and that was the change for me because everything had been so remote and hands-off. And then it was like, oh, people actually want to see you and they want you in the office and you've got to get dressed for work again. And, you know, all these kind of things. So Yeah, it was a crazy time. We all know it was a crazy time and no one had a rulebook on how to, on how to run with it. But what, what was the other option than to just crack on?

Where you did have an option a bit later on though, was from what you set out to turn in from a lifestyle business, then moving to a fully fledged agency. With a thriving team and clients around the world. So I'm wondering, when did you realize you needed to do that switch?

So I'm laughing again because it wasn't a decision. Again, it was just a set of circumstances. So someone that I had actually been to university with and ended up working with, but on another side of marketing. So my, my side of marketing is very commercial. It's very strategy-led. It's the, how are you going to make the till ring? And that's from having worked in really intense sales environments most of my career. My friend on the other side of that, who I went to uni with and ended up working with in the same business, was on the other side. So she was all about customer experience. She was about engagement. She was about the touch and the feel of how do you build brand loyalty and all of that kind of thing. So the complete opposite side of the penny to me. And she, a bit like me, had built a reputation for herself as being very good at that and was being approached by different people. And it, you know, it come to the end of her time where she was and she said to me, look, I'm thinking about doing what you did and setting up on my own. What are your thoughts? I, you know, I guess advice was it's pretty hard in terms of the actual setup that you have to do, like getting a client lined up and ready to walk into is easier than all of the stuff that you have to do just as a business because you have a brand to build, you have a business to raise awareness of, you You have your own marketing to do. So it's not an easy option to go and start, start a business. So she thought about it and I thought about it and then I thought, well, why don't we just pivot what the agency does and move from this kind of consultancy strategy offering to complete end-to-end? So yes, we can do the consultancy and strategy, but then we can actually do all of the creative execution as well. And we can combine kind of offline activity that people are normally shying away from because they think you can't measure it. Actually, we can measure it because that is my background. You can measure everything. And I genuinely believe you can measure everything. So we did. And yeah, overnight that changed the kind of offering of the agency from this strategy focus to being able to offer these more creative services as well and these more tangible offline experiences. So again, it wasn't, okay, I'm going to turn this now for a lifestyle business. It was, You know, one client becomes two and that's manageable. You insert a different offering that brings in a different client that then requires more people. And it's just been very organic. And I think that I was— because I wanted it to be a lifestyle business from the start, I knew that I didn't have to say yes to everything. I knew that I wasn't trying to build a massive business. So I've always been very good at that. That's not for us. That, that isn't a job for us. That isn't what we're going to be. The best at, and there are other people out there that can do that better for you. And I'm all right with that. I don't want to be Saatchi Saatchi. I don't want to be McCann. I'm happy with being a small boutique agency and being close to the work and being close to the people that are doing it. And therefore we have the luxury of being able to kind of pick what, what we work on and what we don't. And I only want to do work we will absolutely smash and do better than, than anybody else.

So you turned down rapid scaling and outside investment to protect your lifestyle, your quality of life, your team, and you said you get picky about the things you do. So how do you decide what opportunities to say no to and what's your personal red flag when it comes to getting clients? Because I'm sure there are some.

Yeah, yeah, definitely. When I decided that we were gonna be an agency, the best piece of advice I was given was, you can grow in two ways. You can grow with speed, or you can grow with stability. And I am incredibly risk-averse. I don't take risks. I am a deep thinker on things. I'm very logical and very pragmatic. I'm happy to take big steps if I've done all the homework as to this is the right step to take. But, you know, I think I was very conscious and I am aware every single day that now that we are a team, I'm not just responsible for my mortgage and, you know, my car payments and my life, but I'm responsible for other people's as well. And I'm responsible for making sure that they get paid at the end of every month. And that isn't lost on me. I think that's a huge responsibility to take on. And I think making big risky decisions, you're gambling other people's lives with that. And I, and I don't, I don't sign up to that. That was kind of the advice I was given that has always made me steer away from outside investment. And, you know, you see all the time, don't you, about people that have scaled and, you know, now exited businesses for X million and everything. But actually, the reality of that is the founder is often moved out the way as soon as possible. Their sum of money is not often, you know, 7 figures. Actually, I don't want to be one of these agencies that's having to chase payroll every month. I want to be able to go to sleep at night and I want to enjoy enjoy my life and my job. So there's kind of that side to it. And in terms of the red flags, I swear by like a vibe check with clients. So my team call it the pint check. Normally, if we're not going for a pint, then we're probably not the people for you because, you know, I like to work with people that I like and I would choose to spend time with because we work with people on quite a long-term basis. So I've got a client that I've been working with for the 5 years that we've been going. We've got other clients that we've worked for 18 months, 12 months. We do very little. I think the shortest we've ever done is about 6 months, but we work with people for a long period of time. So I'm spending more time with them than I have my family. So I want to enjoy that time. So there's definitely a vibe check of, are you the right people? But we work best with people and we attract people that want to be— disruptive isn't the word and I'm not sure what the right word is, but they want to be different in their industry and they don't want to follow what everyone else has done and they want to turn that dial 1 or 2%, 10% if we can, but they want to step outside the norm and that's where we do our best work. So the people that, you know, come to us and want what I call lights-on stuff, the stuff we say no to because yes, we could do it, but are we going to enjoy it? No. Is it where our best work is going to be done? Probably not. Because we don't enjoy it. So it's about knowing what are we going to excel at, what is going to fire us up every day and deliver the best work. And that is often, you know, what the project is and who the person is that we're dealing with.

You've been giving me green flags. Let's go for red flags.

Okay. So red flags are people that think that working with an agency means that they have a monopoly on your time. So people that think that they can text you, call you, email you any time of the day, any day of the week, and get an answer within 30 seconds, that is a huge, huge red flag for me. People that aren't happy for you to share the work that you've done to promote yourself as a business, you know, I don't think it's fair for us to do a load of work for somebody, them, you know, achieve their objectives and get the results they want, and us not be able to say we were people behind that. So those are kind of the red flags that we look for. Also people that have really long proposal processes, you know, people that want everyone to do the proposal in exactly the same way, in exactly the same format. If you're engaging with a creative service, whatever that might be, part of that proposal process is them showing you their creativity and how they present themselves. So, you know, people that have these really long-winded, you have to do your proposal like this, it has to look like this, that you're not for me, because if you're already trying to fit us into this box, I'm going to have an uphill battle on my hands of getting you to think differently. And I, you know, I don't want to put myself through that. So I'm certainly not going to put any of the team through it.

And also you've built your brand around basically zero BS and measuring everything, especially offline. Tell me more about that. How do you pitch yourself to, and the agency to clients and doing it yourself without zero BS?

Well, that's it, isn't it? And, um, you know, I, I tout myself as the least fluffy marketing person you will ever meet. And that comes from that ROI obsession and that, what are we doing it for? What is it that we're actually doing it for? Cause I can make you the prettiest thing in the world, or the team can make you the prettiest thing in the world, but is it going to work? Because, you know, we might all high-five ourselves that we've got the best-looking campaign, but have we got the best-performing campaign? So it's making sure that that's there. I'm very upfront with clients from the start. I mean, I actually don't think I've sworn yet on here, but I swear all the time. And, you know, I—

It's okay, we put the explicit label on it.

I say to people, look, I do drop an F-bomb every now and again, and that is how I speak. And I know that's not for everybody, but I can't change that. It's my makeup. It's just how I communicate, especially when I get excited about something. And also that I'm not just going to bring you easy options in and we're going to be quite honest with you from the start as to where you're at, because a lot of clients often, I'd say the majority, come to you with a problem or they come to you with their perceived problem. You have a conversation and actually they've got a bigger problem than the one they think they've got, or it's a different problem or there's something glaringly obvious that they need to do. So, you know, we offer branding as a service, for example, and we will have people come to us and say, you know, we want a branding project, we want to change everything, da da da, okay, great, you know, let's do it. What people need to understand is the application and the rollout of a brand is really important as well. So wanting a rebrand might actually result in needing a new website. Now, we don't build websites, we don't design websites. I have no skin in the game when it comes to websites. Whatsoever. However, what I do know is how to roll out a brand, and I know strategy. And it's no good making, you know, what's the saying, you can't put, you know, you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig. You have to, you have to present your shop window in the best way, but your shop window also has to be solid, you know, it has to be right. So people often underestimate what is actually involved in doing things properly, and I have no interest in doing things half-assed or not right, or, you know, we always say that'll do will never do. And we say that with our team, our expectations of ourselves are incredibly high. So that'll do will never do for us. And someone wanted to roll out a beautiful looking brand across old assets that need rebuilding isn't, you know, it's no good for them. And it's certainly no good for us as a window for what we do. And I say, we have no skin in the game when it comes to websites, but we know strategy and we know the best way to do it. So we are very honest with people. I'm very clear about boundaries and stuff as well like that. You know, I'm not going to answer your calls and your messages at whatever time. And all my, all my clients have my WhatsApp number. Everyone can WhatsApp me, but I expect that to be respected in the same way that I respect them. You know, I have their number too, but if they, if I know they're on holiday or they're with their family or they're on a day off, I'm not going to bother them on that day because that is their time. So Yeah, I think, I think that's kind of the no, the no stuff and the no fluff. I just haven't got time for it.

Speaking about branding, you're quite outspoken about the power of personal brands, not just for founders. And in a way, you, you grew Co&Co and your agency through the power of your personal brand. And I also understand that you encourage your team to show up online. So I'm wondering, what are some of your tips and tricks we can share with other entrepreneurs and founders tuning in about them developing their personal brands and why it's important to show up online and not just build in the shadows?

Co&Co wouldn't be where it is today had I not invested in my own personal brand and built it. You know, there's a lot of people that come and work with us because they follow me on LinkedIn and they've seen what I'm talking about. As you say, the way that I speak on LinkedIn, the way that I talk, the way that I present myself is very no fluff and no bull. It's very straight to the point. It's very blunt. It's never, it's never controversial on purpose. I don't actually think anything I say is controversial. I just think I'm saying things that other people are thinking and, you know, they're always backed up. And I've been doing this for a long time. So I always say my sample size of the years I've been doing this is pretty pretty good, but I think there's a huge opportunity for business owners and entrepreneurs to grow their personal brands and therefore their businesses. I think where the magic is though, for me, is businesses that invest in their employees doing it because businesses, we talk to people all the time and we'll go into businesses and we'll give their teams training on how to use LinkedIn, how to effectively turn their teams into mini routes to market, if you like. And one of the things that we get is, what if we do this and people leave? You know, what if we do this and people get poached? My very, you know, no fluff, no bull answer is nobody's going to leave a business for any other reason than they're not happy where they are or their personal circumstances have changed. So if you're, if you're a business that has a shit culture, you have no investment in your people, you're not looking after your people, they'll leave because of that. They're not going to leave because they've started posting on LinkedIn, and actually, If you're a good company, if people like being there, then that's what people should be talking about. So you need, the way we describe it is, you need your employees to be an amplifier for the business, and you need your business to be an amplifier for the employees. So, you know, business pages on LinkedIn are always about the wins of the business, they're never about the people that make it happen, and that's what they should be talking about. They should be talking about the individuals, you know, what you're, annual turnover was, or the award that you just won, or how happy your shareholders are. Very few people care about that apart from the shareholders and the business owners and, you know, the board. So what, what do the people who you are trying to attract to work there, that you are trying to attract to buy from you, that you are trying to keep retained in the business, what content do they want to see? And that's who you produce it for. So Yeah, entrepreneurs, business people, huge opportunity to use your voice, especially when you're starting out. And when I started Co+Co, I was the brand, that was it. And that's kind of spiralled off the back of me. As you grow, that also then goes into other parts of the business. So how we are as a business, yes, is very much built on me and my personality, but it also now comes into things like recruitment. It comes into culture, it comes into how we look after people. So, you know, as part of the recruitment process, I, I'm looking for traits of people that match our vibe and our brand, not because I think that is the only way to be, but because that is the best way to be here, and it is the way that you're going to get the most out of it. But for businesses, there's value being left on the table because they just don't, um, they just don't get it. And I guess the other thing on that part that we, you know, so that's what the businesses tell us, is that people leave. But then employees will say to us, well, how do I build a brand within a business that already exists? How do I build a brand within a brand? And I think the best analogy that we've ever come up with for that is if you think of Heinz, the brand Heinz, you know, they have multiple products. They have everything from sandwich spread to beans to ketchup to sausages and hoops. You know, they have mayo. They have an array of things that they offer to people. You can be a Heinz customer. Customer and not like sandwich spread, but absolutely love spaghetti hoops. So it's exactly the same as employees within a business. Every employee is going to be different and they are going to appeal to a different audience. So you can still be your own product. We're all washing powder at the end of the day. So, you know, you can be your own product within that hierarchy of a brand, but you don't have to kind of try and create something new other than who you are. That, that's the authenticity. The credibility bit, and you're always trying to build two things: credibility and rapport. And credibility comes from showing what you've done, demonstrating what you've done for other people and the success of that. And the rapport comes from the personal side of things. We are more likely to do business with people who are like us and who we feel connected to. And you and I could sit here all day and talk about our lives. The things that we will bond over will not be what we do for a living. You know, if we stop doing our jobs tomorrow, we would still be the same people. We would bond over different things from our childhoods and how we grew up and, you know, what we do in our free time. And, you know, if we've got children or not, or if we've got dogs or not, there'll be all these things that we go, oh yeah, I relate to that. And that's where that personal side is super, super important to make sure that you are getting that across to people.

Now, Jordan, you touched on hiring, and you also said that you don't set out to be controversial on LinkedIn.

I know what's coming.

But then something happened. You did say something. Many people agreed with you, but many people also, also didn't. And you basically have a no graduates hiring stance, and that exploded on LinkedIn. So I'm wondering, why did you make that call? And how has it affected your business and the culture you've developed within the business?

Yeah. So that is probably the most controversial thing that I've said. And again, I don't think it was controversial. I think it was divisive. I wasn't saying anything completely outlandish. I was just talking from a place of experience. And, you know, I did make the decision that we weren't going to take grads into entry-level positions. So you can have gone to uni and you can come, you can still come and work here. You just can't cut your teeth here. That's, that's the thing that I'm saying. And again, that comes from years of experience of sitting in front of grads who have come out of uni. And by the way, this is absolutely no dig or reflection on the grads. This is a dig and a reflection of universities. They are not producing the right caliber of people that have the skills that employers need to hit the ground running. If you're coming into a business, you need to be able to demonstrate value, and I don't expect you to be running client accounts and taking on loads of responsibility, but I do expect you to be useful and I do expect you to be able to do certain things and be able to adapt. So I think the unis are doing people a disservice and therefore they aren't producing the right type of people. So I made that statement that we weren't going to take anyone into entry-level positions and actually we were going to go down a different route and we were going to take apprentices into entry-level positions. I've been hit with loads of reasons to do that. Oh, it's cheaper and da da da. Well, we pay our apprentices a normal entry-level position wage. We don't pay apprenticeship wages because I just think they're still grown-ups in the world and the world is expensive. So why should they just be paid less? Do you know what I mean? So we, just to debunk that for anyone who's about to come and say, we don't do that. We pay normal entry-level salaries. And also taking on an apprentice for the business is a bigger investment than just what it costs because you have an obligation then to teach, to mentor, to support, to actually put more into than potentially a grad. But the difference is that we found, and we have two apprentices in, in the business, the difference that we found is they have a different type of graft element. They don't want to go to uni and learn everything about marketing through a book or through lectures or whatever. They want to come in and they want to have hands-on experience and they want to get involved. They really want to muck in and they're inquisitive and they ask questions. I love, I love people asking questions and wanting to learn. What I was seeing with grads is that they weren't doing that. They were coming in and almost like, well, I know everything because I've got this bit of paper.

That's exactly what I wanted to ask. You seem to have made a clear differentiation between a mindset. So it's not about them going to uni, it's more about mindset.

Yeah, but I think that is being taught by the universities. I think the universities are saying, if you learn this, you will therefore be able to walk into this job, this job, and this job. And that's just not the case. And when I made that statement on LinkedIn, I did actually have some grads come at me in the comments, and I said, look, you are the exception and not the rule. I am talking about the mass here. I don't know every single individual grad in the world or in the UK, What I'm saying is, en masse, this is the behaviour and this is the experience. But actually, you who are on LinkedIn engaging with people like me, run with that because you will go and be absolutely fantastic. But you are the exception and not the rule. So that was kind of where, where that came from. I did a podcast recently for the audience there, it's for young people who are kind of 16, 18 and trying to make their next step in life, I guess. And I went to university, you know, that was the other thing I had. Um, oh, it's all right for you, you know, you went to university, you got a first, you won two awards, pull the ladder up after yourself. Absolutely not. Like, I'm the first person to help anybody up the ladder, no problem. I got asked on this podcast, if you could go back in time, would you still go to university? And despite how well I did, and I did my degree in the field that I now work in, would I go back to university? And I wouldn't. I would, I would go down the apprentice this route, because I think for me, the type of person I was, was what enabled me to go and get a first and win awards. And I did the work experience, and I, you know, I did all the stuff that you should. But I think there's this thing amongst grads coming out that the universities are saying, well, because you've been here and you've got a degree, that gives you the edge. And it doesn't. You, you have to be proactive, and we just weren't seeing that from people.

So yeah, I think it's universities saying that, or is in a way, society or the generation, their parents, so to speak, and that generation, which in a way had that job security, which you don't get nowadays anymore.

Yeah, but, but then I would challenge that and say, you know, the, the parents of the people coming out of university are not much older than me, really. You know, they're probably in their early 40s, you know, that, that kind of age bracket. No, I don't, I don't know. There's going to be loads of factors, isn't there? But all I can say is that the two young people that we have in the team here who are 19 are just a different breed. And I think maybe I've been lucky, maybe we have just found two gems, but I'm not sure because I, I've had this conversation with other people and there is a definite across different industries, different actors, and there's definitely just this feeling that there's something happening in universities that is letting graduates down. I mean, the university I went to, we were taught by people who were in the industry. It was 35 hours a week. It was as close to the real world as you could possibly get. I mean, I'd love a 35-hour week now, but that, you know, that was as close as it could get. And my friends doing sports science and playing rounders for 3 hours on a Monday, and then they got a degree. You know, we were taught by people in the industry. We also had a module where we had creative directors from a Manchester agency and a Liverpool agency come in and rip our work apart. You know, we were working on the same briefs their agencies were, and we were presenting what we thought was amazing creative, this is going to get used level work, and they would rip it apart and just say, we would never put that in front of somebody, or you need to do this, or have you thought about that? Really, really challenged us. And I think that grounding was absolutely, you know, priceless to me. And what I also say to people who challenge me on this, on this opinion is, I do spend time going into colleges, universities, wherever, to say, look, this is what you should be teaching people. This is the skills that are useful to us as employers coming out, because I don't think that you can I think everybody, no matter what sector or industry that you're in, when you get to a certain point in your career, a certain seniority level, I believe you have an obligation to help those coming up because you can't sit and bitch and moan that the next generation aren't ready if you aren't prepared to do your bit to help. So I do that where I can, and I've gone and done talks. And as I say, I've sat with universities and helped them put courses together and I think the other thing that is a problem, and maybe which is more in this industry than others, is all the kids that started university last September, looking at, you know, doing marketing, studying marketing or any of the creative industries, their course has been set now for 3 years. What they are going to learn in year 3 will be almost archaic by the time they come to learn.

It's outdated by design, basically. Yes.

It is. It needs to be looked at, I would say, at least every 12 months. For, are we teaching these people what is going to be useful to them when they leave? And you're only going to be able to do that if you're constantly keeping an eye on the sector, on changes, on technology, on trends. You're only going to be able to teach them the best if you are also looking in and not just, you know, sorry, if you're also looking out and not just into the world that you're in. So yeah, I think there's a job to be done by universities. And as I say, I'm more than happy to help and bring my no-fluff No BS approach to it, but it is a decision that I stand by and so far touch wood, I'm happy with. But as I say, it's not to say you can't come here if you've been to uni, you just, you can't start here.

So have you had any exceptions where you did bring in a graduate because they had the right mindset? Has there been any exception? No.

So I'm trying to think. No, there hasn't. I mean, my last interaction with a grad going into entry-level position, it was actually a client and we were helping them to build a marketing marketing team. So we'd supported them for a period of time, and we were kind of doing this handover process of, okay, we've kind of set you up now, let's build you a team that can, can continue it. So we were helping them with that and obviously helping with the recruitment of that and the interview process. And I sat down in front of a girl, and she was lovely. She was a really clearly very smart, very switched-on young woman. And I said, okay, so, you know, talk to me about where, where you want to go with things. And I'm not talking about next 5 years or 10 years. You shouldn't know that. Like, you're not old enough to know what— I don't know what I want to be doing in 5 or 10 years. So you shouldn't, you certainly shouldn't feel shackled to any type of idea. And she said, well, the next 2 years, I'd really like your job. And I thought, I think what you're trying to do is give me a compliment. But actually, what I feel that you've done is just undermine like 10 years of really hard work. Because if you think that you can do what I've done in 10 years in 2, then quite frankly, I shouldn't be doing the job that I'm doing. And that was the last interaction that I had with a grad.

Now, something else that's changing the name of the game for agencies and marketing and junior roles is AI. How have you embraced it in your business and how do you see other businesses embracing it and is it affecting people bringing in agencies in order to do some work? Do a lot of businesses now think they can do it themselves? And where can they go wrong?

Yeah, I mean, look, a lot of them, it's a bit like I was saying before, there's always something, there's always something that businesses think, oh, we don't need humans for it now because we've got this machine that does it. Or, you know, you could go back, you could go back to the start of time, you know, the wheel put people out of business. The car put people out of business, you know, electricity put people out of business. Like, there's always going to be an evolution of technology and it's how you embrace that and it's how you work alongside it rather than just roll over and say, right, I give up. But it's also being understanding of where it plays a role and where it can't replace things. You know, a good example I can, I can give you in terms of creative industries, You know, we do a lot of creative work, we do a lot of brand work, we do obviously a lot of offline stuff. And I think the one thing it will never replace is human connection. And a lot of the offline activations that we do, I just don't think it has a place there. I think it's, I actually feel like it's quite dangerous in terms of the idea generation that it is, is useful in some creative industries. And the reason I think that is dangerous is because The best creatives I've ever worked with have got there through trial and error. You get there through working your way up. So how do you become a middleweight designer or a lead designer or a creative director if you haven't had to go through the process of learning, of test and learn, if you've had a machine that has helped you do it? So, you know, idea generation, there's a lot of agencies, you know, heavy creative agencies now I'm talking about. That rely on juniors to come up with ideas. So, okay, you could say, right, well, we can get rid of 10 juniors then because we've got AI that can do it. Okay. But how does that, how do you then have growth? How do you then get more senior creatives coming through if you're stopping it right at the start? So I have that feeling for it as well. You know, there will always be a place for a more affordable option when it comes to things as well. And I do think AI and technology does allow for more affordable options on things. I did a post not long ago actually about a guy who, he did a post saying all creative jobs are going to be gone in 10 years because I was able to make this poster on my phone in 10 minutes using a picture of my tea from last last night, a line of copy, and it was done in 10 minutes using AI. Okay, yeah, a poster was created, that's a fact. The line of copy was completely unforgettable. I mean, I can't actually remember what it said now. The picture was badly taken and not very well lit, and the whole thing was just tick box, you know, that'll do, like we were talking about before. There wasn't much creativity to it, and it could be replicated by anybody. It wasn't It wasn't clever. So I don't think creators need to worry about their, you know, their jobs going, but there will be a role, there will be a place for that level of production for people that can't necessarily afford humans in the same way that you could go and buy a Billy bookcase from IKEA for £90 that has been mass-produced and everyone has one. Or you can go to a master craftsman, have a beautiful bookcase made out of a piece of oak. Yes, it's going to cost you probably 10 times the price, but it's unique. No one else has it. It's going to be a talking point. It's going to last longer. It's an experience. It's a process. So there will always be two audiences, someone that wants cheap and quick and someone that wants premium and is willing to take the time. And I see AI in the creative space very much filling that cheaper option. But, you know, how do we—

And that's not really where you want to be anyway.

No, absolutely not. You know, we're not at that end of the scale, but some people are. And, you know, I guess they're the ones that might need to think about how they embrace it a bit more. But like I say, even those cheaper options that AI can produce, I still don't think are better than a cheaper option that a human could produce. And I do think that we run the risk of eliminating a whole layer of creative people who then never have the chance to go into the more senior positions, and then where does the industry go after that?

Now, you also have been open about throughout your building journey about the mental load and loneliness of building a business from scratch. So before you had your co-founder, and we'll, we'll get into that in a moment, I'm wondering what was your lowest moment as a founder? But also, how did you get through it?

God, that's a really good question. I don't know if it was my lowest moment in terms of being a founder specifically, but when I started Co+Co, there were other things going on as well. So, you know, as I said before, I kind of was at a bit of a crossroads with my career. I didn't know where I wanted to go. I wasn't satisfied by it, so I knew it had to change. But there were also two other things going on at the same time in that, you know, as I said, I had a very unhealthy lifestyle. I was 5 stone overweight. I was 14 and a half stone, you know, my biggest, which at 5 foot 3 is quite a lot to carry. So I was, I was really unhappy with myself and that was having an effect on, you know, my mental health and that kind of thing. And the job, you know, I wasn't happy with. I was in a relationship that I shouldn't have been in either that was kind of coming to an end. And it was a relationship I didn't think would come to an end, but, you know, it was. So Going through all of those things kind of over a 2, 3 year period, all at the same time was quite difficult because I was running a business on my own. And when you're doing that, no one talks about the loneliness of starting a business when it's just you. There are people you can talk to, but they haven't got the same skin in the game because it's not theirs. So even if you talk to people who have businesses or have the experience, sometimes if you talk to people who have been quite successful and, you know, have gone on to do great things and they talk about their experience, I feel like sometimes they can romanticize it a bit and can kind of be like, oh, it's lovely.

They look at it through the rose-tinted glasses.

Yes, exactly. And, you know, hindsight is 20/20 vision, isn't it? So that you're getting a perspective that is kind of warped, I feel. So that's difficult. And, you know, when, when you sign up to be self-employed, if you're in a relationship with somebody, that person is also signing up for self-employed life, which is something that I think is massively underestimated because the pressure that that puts on a relationship that has been two incomes, two good incomes, comes to be one good income and one might be an income is hard. And there's the expectation. You don't want it to fail. You don't want to be the person to say, look, I gave it a go and it didn't work. That was a low moment for me in having to deal with all those things at once. And I'm a very, I'm a very internal person. So I, I do a lot of problem solving myself. I don't necessarily go and talk to people until I know what the answer is. I'm happy to say, bloody hell, I've got this horrible problem, but this is what I'm going to do about it. I can't go to somebody and say, I've got this problem, I don't know what to do. I just, it's not in me. I can't do it. So that was really hard to go through those 2 or 3 really pivotal, transformative years alone in pretty much every way. That was hard. But I think in that, that also kind of gave me this feeling of, well, it can't fail because there's nobody now to support you or, you know, this has to work. And I just doubled down on that and went, went all in really. But yeah, it was, it was a hard, it was a hard few years for sure.

And it was after that when you brought your co-founder on board and also changed in a way the direction and the path of the agency. What's the dynamic like now when you have experienced business life solo founder, but now also you have a wingman, wingwoman? Yes. And can you, how do you spread the load between you?

Yeah. So, um, so first of all, um, Sophie, who, who came in to work with me, who has been my best friend for 14, 15 years. And, you know, we went to uni together, we worked together. Um, I didn't bring her in as a co-founder. She came in as creative director because I still felt that because I had started Co+Co, I still felt it was my responsibility to make sure that it was a success. And I didn't— that pressure that I talked about before of, you know, I'm responsible for other people's mortgages and rent and kids' school fees and holidays and stuff. I didn't want to put that onto someone else. So Sophie came in as creative director and she watched what she does is so different to, you know, what I do. And we are really different. We are two sides of the same coin, but it works brilliantly because not only are we different in terms of skill set, we're different in terms of personality. And we, we operate differently, we think differently. And just having that other person, that other perspective is brilliant. It really was a breath of fresh air. And because we have that and we have that different dynamic, it really works in our favor a lot of the time. You know, we've gone to pitches before or initial meetings where I'll sit in the room and I'll think, these people do not like me. They don't like my way, my style, but they love Sophie. They absolutely love her. And I think, okay, then this is, this is yours. You lead on that. You be the contact on it. And I think that's a really big thing for founders, especially that have started the business. Alone and grown it have to be humbled by is that you aren't always the best person for the job. You have to use your team and actually building a team around you of people that are better than you at certain things and have different skills to you is the best thing that you can do as a business owner because then you have all bases covered. I know what my strengths are and I'm very aware what my weaknesses are and I'm okay with that. I'm alright with that. That's fine. Because I've got other people that can cover those bases. She's great for me. She's a great mirror for me. And, you know, I— she often says I work at a different speed to everybody else. She's like, I don't know how you work at the speed that you work and do all the things that you do. But she also then says you need to think about how that reflects out as well. So if you do something in 2 seconds for somebody, you are setting the expectation that everybody can do it in 2 seconds. And it can be done straight away, and that's not the reality for everybody else. So she's really taught me a lot of lessons in, you know, managing expectations, in actually not having to just react to things, but, you know, just take a step. If it's needed by next Wednesday, why do you have to do it right now? Because again, you're setting an unrealistic expectation then for the whole team that that's how long things take. So It's great. You know, I love, I love that I get to work with my best friend every day and I just love the whole culture and dynamic. And because she is very much on that side of marketing about experience and how people feel and loyalty, she brings something to the culture that I'd like to think I can bring, but she's a much better person to bring it because she's always thinking about that, how people feel. So yeah, it works really well. I feel incredibly lucky. To have the dynamic that we have.

So you share some of the load, but you still carry the whole burden yourself.

Yeah, I do. And I, and I do think that is because it's— I decided to do this. I, I put myself in this position, um, and I'm happy with that. And, you know, I look after all the business side of things. And, and again, I think that's just because of the, the type of work that I've done in the past, is that I'm just naturally drawn to that kind of stuff and, you know, the operational stuff. But ultimately it's my job to make sure that this business makes money. I'm happy to have the difficult price conversations with people and, you know, retainer time conversations with people. That, that is my job. That is what I'm here to do and to make sure that everybody is looked after.

But things can still get super busy and I'm wondering Jordan, what are some of the habits and routines that keep you grounded and productive when it's all go, go, go, and you have to juggle and handle so many things?

Yeah, so I think people can sometimes think that I have a really exciting, fast and glamorous life, and the reality is the complete opposite of that. I am so regimented. I am so a creature of habit. I eat the same thing every single day. I get up at the same time every single day. I'm an early riser, as we were talking about before we started recording. You know, I'm up at 5.

How early are we talking about?

5 AM, in the gym for 5:15, come home, sort the dog out, get ready for work, go to work, come home, walk the dog. And then I'm actually normally in bed by about 8, half 8, um, and then up again the next day. So that routine for me is really— I need that. I'm, I'm rubbish without routine, even at weekends. I'm rubbish with downtime or You know, my partner always says I can't sit still for longer than 2 minutes. I think it takes us about 3 days to watch an hour-long episode of anything on Netflix because I'm just up and I need to go and do something. And I know we're driving mad with it, but it does matter to me. And, you know, prioritizing the fitness side of things and the wellness side of things, you know, going through losing 5 stone, that wasn't eat a few more salads and do a few more steps. That was a whole lifestyle transformation. That way of living is really important to me. So yeah, I eat the same thing every single day. I eat at the same time every single day. I take my supplements at the same time every day. I go to the gym at the same time. I use my calendar as a to-do list, so everything is blocked out my calendar for what I'm doing, the time I'm doing it. Again, even at weekends, if I've got to return something to Zara, it's in there for the hour that I'm going to go and do it. And that is how I manage things. And I encourage the team to do the same, just because I find that really helps me. And I know everyone is different, but, you know, if anyone ever asks me, how do you manage it all? It's being really strict with time and planning things in.

So you're planning your free time in your calendar as well, which I've heard from others as well. Not just leaving gaps in between and seeing what you're going to do in that time.

No, no, it's in there. So even tomorrow, for example, I'll be with my PT from 7 till 8 and then I have an appointment at 9. So between 8 and 9 is in my calendar to do steps for an hour because that's, that's when I'll get my steps in. So everything is in, is in my calendar.

So exercise and routine, it's what's keeping you grounded and productive besides running your calendar military style.

Yeah, exactly.

Now, through your business journey and development, I'm wondering if there's been any particular books or resources that changed your mind about doing things and how you approach your business.

So I, I'm not a massive book fan, to be honest, just on account of I can't sit still for 2 minutes. So I certainly, if I'm reading a book, I'm not going to be as engaged, but I love audiobooks. I love podcasts. And, you know, I listen to all the stereotypical ones, Diary of a CEO and the High Performance podcast and things like that. But actually, through podcasting myself, you know, being guests on podcasts and speaking to different people and listening to the guests they've had has been really, really helpful to me. And actually, the best— I think the best podcast I ever listened to, and I would encourage you to listen to it if you haven't already, was a Diary of a CEO episode, but it was the Jimmy Carr one. And he was in marketing before he became a stand-up comedian, and he should do lectures in universities about marketing. He is so smart and just so on the money with marketing. And having listened to that and then going and seeing his own marketing and how he conducts himself and things, you can really see he's a marketing person. He's a great salesman. So if you haven't listened to that episode, I would definitely say go and listen to it. But I think You know, I like, I like information, as I say, and I like podcasts and I don't necessarily listen to podcasts about marketing. I like people. And again, I guess that's a marketing thing, is having an interest in people. And I like people's stories. And I think they're the kind of podcasts that I lean into of people that have been through difficult times or have had challenges in front of them and how they dealt with it, because I was listening to a podcast yesterday, actually. It was Greater Manchester's Greatest Minds, Eddie Whittingham's podcast, and he had a guy on there called Aaron who was an ex-United player. He was in the academy. I don't think he ever quite made it to the first team, but he obviously played at a good level, and he had a great line where he said that success leaves clues, and people that have been successful, there are things that you can see see and learn that they've done, that you can then take into your own, your own life. And I think that is true. And I think that's also true of people that have been through difficult times and have had to deal with difficult things, is that how have they done that? Because, you know, while I've gone through difficult times, I'm under no illusion that that won't happen again. So I need to pick up as much information I can about, yes, how to be successful, but actually how do you deal with things when they're hard? It's easy when, you know, when— what is it— when, uh, make hay while the sun shines. That bit of business is easy. But actually, when those days come where it is difficult and you've got to make decisions, how do you do it? And how do you pick the best thing? So, you know, I've listened to podcasts of ex-SAS soldiers. Rylan Clark, who obviously the TV personality, his episode on the High Performance podcast is incredible because he talks about these two personalities that he's had to have. That is so similar to being in business. You know, you have to have two hats on all the time. So those are the kind of things that I've found that have helped me, not necessarily, you know, how do you do marketing, but how do you become successful and how do you, as I say, more in my case, deal with the times when it's difficult? Because I think when you're having success, that's easy to lean into. You just do more of the thing making you successful. But when it's hard, You need, you need a decent armory, I think, to deal with, with difficult times. And as we said before we started recording, I have a saying that sometimes your options are what arm do you want to break first? And there aren't always good options to choose from. You have to make a decision and move forward with it. And you go from there after that.

Speaking of tough decisions, as we taper off our discussion, 6 years in, almost 6 years in now into Co and Co, building a successful agency and a great team. I'm wondering, Jordan, what are the biggest sacrifices you had to make to be where you are today?

Time. Time is the biggest one. I don't think you can shortcut your way to growth. Well, you can, you can take a load of investment, but then is it real? It's all a bit smoke and mirrors, I feel, but time is definitely the biggest sacrifice that I've had to I've had to give up and unwillingly, you know, to be fair, I don't have children and I can be, I guess, selfish with my time to a degree. Obviously I have family and a partner, but yeah, time is definitely the biggest sacrifice you have to give and you have to be okay with that. I think there are a lot of people who start businesses because they want a really nice car, really nice holidays, a really nice house. A picture-perfect Instagram life, and that is not the reality.

And after 6 months as well.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And after 6 months, and if they haven't got it, they kind of feel like they've been shortchanged. But the reality is, when you start a business, you're never more skint than you'll ever be because all your money is going into it. And, you know, you have no guarantee that it will work either. And you, you have to graft, you have to put the time in, you have to put the nights in, put the days in. And, you know, I'm not saying it's right by any stretch of the imagination because I definitely had gone too far. But I got to the point where I was working every single day and I didn't really know what day it was. And I'd be pinging emails out thinking, why is no one replying to me? And it was the weekend, you know. So it's, you do have to give up that time. It's only now, I would say, in the last year that I've really got what people would probably call a work-life balance. I don't believe in work-life balance. I think it sets you up for failure. I think that the best way I ever saw it described was a rickety stool, and you always have to shift your weight one way or the other to be comfortable. And I think that is, you know, life in general. But you do have to sacrifice. And, and it is only the last year that I've taken proper holidays or, you know, have actually had proper time off and haven't worked weekends. So yeah, time. I mean, other people whose circumstances are different, you know, if they've got families and sacrificing family time is probably what they're going to say, or, you know, whatever. But you, you do come secondary to the business and then to the team and then, you know, to, to yourself to a degree, but it's hard. It's hard work and you have to put the time in and the effort in and Ultimately, you know, that's how you get where you want to go.

That's a great thought to wrap up our conversation, especially as from my experience as well, it's many years after you start the business that you start to get a bit of balance. And depending on the growth trajectory as well, sometimes you just never get it because you chase more and more, which is why I I understand why you chose the, the, the slower, more organic growth, that path that you have now in order to be able to be a bit yourself as well. So thank you so much, Jordan, for sharing your story and your wisdom so far on Millennial Masters.

Thank you so much for having me. It's been great.

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