The culture rules that survive hypergrowth 🏗️ | Petr Kozyakov

I learned to understand other people, trying to engage in conversation and understand the point. So I became more calm because actually kids are learning you to be calm because if you're not, it is hard time for you. Sometimes your point is not always right. So you can't prove something to your 4-year-old or 5-year-old. So you need to engage. Sometimes you can spend your energy on fighting with someone. On proving the point, and it doesn't make actually sense. It's better to use your energy together to build something than to use your energy for fighting. Years before, I spent a lot of energy on trying to prove something, like fighting and making the point. So my suggestion would be that you should use your energy productive way on building something, so on engaging people. Don't just lose it.

And that applies both in business and in life.

This week's Millennial Master is Peter Kozjakov, co-founder and CEO of Mercurio. Peter turned a frustrating cross-border payment into a company now serving millions worldwide. He built a 300+ person fintech bridging crypto and traditional finance, all while navigating scaling pains and the personal cost of growth. In this episode, we talk about the culture rules not to compromise on, even in hypergrowth, why energy spent proving a point is wasted unless it builds something, and the habits to avoid burnout and keep perspective as a founder. Millennial Masters is brought to you by Jolt, fast, reliable web hosting built for founders. Whether you're launching a WordPress site or scaling an app, Jolt gives your project a rock-solid home starting from just £3.95 a month. You'll get 99.99% uptime, support in under 30 seconds, and flexible payment options, including Bitcoin and Amex, so you can rack up those points while you build. Get your first 3 months free at jolt.co.uk. Smart hosting for people building what's next.

Peter, welcome to Millennial Masters. How are you today?

Awesome. Thanks for having me here.

I want to know, Peter, because when you founded Mercurio, which is your current business. What was the real aha moment or the frustration that led to you founding your business?

In the beginning, it was me suffering from traditional fiat world when I needed to make a payment. I was in Southeast Asia and I needed to make a payment to the US. And I tried a lot of regular fiat options, so bank transfer, card-to-card payment, PayPal, or others. It was a pain. And at some point, a friend of mine just told me, why won't you try crypto? And I thought like, oh, no one use crypto. It's something weird. You don't have other options. Why won't you try? I spent a few days Googling, searching, watching different videos. Finally, after a few days, 5 for 6 registrations, I, I got crypto in my wallet. And then it was the moment when I just clicked transfer. And then if in 15 seconds the counterparty said, yeah, I got it.

All good.

This moment, me personally, I fell in love with crypto.

So it was the ease of transfer between 2 crypto accounts, although you said yourself it took a few days to set up those crypto accounts too. Was this the, the problem that you identified and you wanted to fix Mercurio, how did you set about setting it up?

Exactly. That, that was the, the moment when, uh, I first felt that, uh, crypto is really useful. And on the other side, felt a strong demand, uh, from, uh, businesses, enterprises when it was, uh, 2017 and every, uh, there was crypto boom, uh, and everyone was asking, how can I buy crypto? How can I do that? And we had an experience with my previous company. We had a few partners who just added crypto as one of the products they have, and they really skyrocketed. And we decided we should focus on that. We should build the proper solution to make crypto acceptable and easy to access. And that's why and how we started Mercurial.

So then crypto now is not for just for tech bros or techies anymore. You're looking at bringing it into the mainstream alongside fiat currencies and using it as an easy way to, for example, transfer money between continents. But technology though, it's still at the core of it of making it accessible to the user. How did you tackle this angle of the problem which you encountered yourself back in, uh, the founding days of Mercurio?

You are absolutely right that we, we are thinking about crypto as a tool to execute payments, cross-border payments settlements. And when we started, when we had just a few people in the team, we wanted to make this process as easy as it can be. At that point with the best, with smooth solution, it would take you like 6 or 7 steps minimum to buy crypto. And we wanted to do it in just 1 or 2 steps. And actually I have a fun story. The one of our first failures, which actually helped us to build one of our strong features. When we just launched Mercurio, we saw really uptick in volume and we were all almost ready to celebrate with my co-founders that we have a perfect market fit. But then our monitoring team started to ring an alarm and say, you know, guys, transactions are suspicious. At that moment, we realized that we should build a state-of-the-art anti-fraud monitoring system. And actually, it took us some time. We suffered a bit, but we built what then became one of our pillars and one of our key things to acquire the licenses, to keep them, to keep our partners comfortable that we can monitor and control our traffic.

But ultimately, your aim is to make crypto transactions as fast and safe as say Apple Pay or Google Pay, which, which people are used to? Will there, will there be a point when you could have a crypto card for your Apple Pay or use it through that?

Sure.

Uh, the main idea now, and you know, this, uh, uh, really interesting thing that you mentioned, uh, that before crypto was really for crypto bros, they didn't care about, um, the UX, UI, they were ready to suffer, spend some time to understand how it works. Now it's a completely consumer product. If you don't have easy onboarding, easy solution to buy crypto, if you don't receive crypto in seconds and you have to wait like 5 or 10 minutes, so it is not a service anymore. So we are working on making checkout as easy as you would buy your sneakers on Nike site, sounds like this. On the other side, you are absolutely right. We launched some time ago crypto card because now it's the trend to start using crypto. Before 6 or 7 years, everyone was thinking, how can I get in crypto? Now people are saying, okay, I have crypto, what can I do with that? It's not always easy to use your crypto. You know, me personally, I suffered it when you want to move money from the crypto exchange and you receive to your bank account. You have a list of questions ready for you. Some of the banks, they just say, I don't care. I don't want to know you are dealing with crypto and please don't send transactions to me from any kind of crypto business, crypto exchange or so ever. So that's why we decided that we need to provide our customers with solution where they can easily use their crypto to spend in everyday life, to buy a cup of coffee using just their crypto balance.

And obviously there's an amount of people who would have crypto from the early Bitcoin days when it was very cheap to buy some and the price increased, and maybe now they're wanting to spend some of the difference in the rate of Bitcoin and the money they gained by doing that. But for somebody who has not been initiated to crypto yet, what are the advantages of buying any of the stablecoins and doing transactions in crypto?

I can tell you a few use cases. So one of the use cases, you can get the payments and your payroll in crypto, in stablecoins. Gig worker, you receive it from abroad. It's easier and quicker to receive it in crypto. So, and basically you have some stablecoins you need to spend, and then you face all the difficulties that I mentioned before to provide all the information to your bank where do you get the money from. So there are things—

What about the cost of the transactions as well? Because we know here in the UK, if you want to do an international transaction, there's either a percentage on it or a flat fee of up to £80.

Absolute truth. Although it's easy to make local transfers here, cross-border payments is a pain, and it is always easier and quicker to receive stablecoins and using them after that. So, well, with stablecoins you can pay starting from almost zero if you use Layer 2 or something like this, or at least a few dollars or pounds. That would be the most expensive way. So, and then you get it immediately. I think this, with this the case, and actually One of really important things that people sometimes forget about, that when you have crypto in your non-custodial wallet, for example, you own this crypto. This crypto is yours. There's not obligation from third party to pay you some money. Sometimes it works, but sometimes it doesn't. But when you have crypto in your wallet, it is your crypto and it belongs to you. And you manage that.

And then besides the transfers and the payrolls, what other use cases you think are useful for businesses and people in general for crypto?

Sure. Obviously money transfers, sending money abroad. So it's gaining huge pace now, stablecoin payments and using stablecoin rails to execute payments for remittances. So it's a big part. Then there are some use cases where you can settle with your friends. So for example, we have from time to time dinner with my friends from the UAE, and then we need to split the bill. So how you would do that? So, and I don't want to pay 80 pounds, as you mentioned, to transfer money to account there and vice versa from there, uh, to here in the UK. So it's easier to settle just using crypto. And on the other side, on the businesses' side, medium and small enterprises, the border payments is always a pain. Sometimes when you have a proper bank account, it's a bit easier, but then with compliance, all the questions that you get for transfer of, uh, £5,000, it, it is a pain. So, and with crypto, again, it's just quick, fast.

You are right, because I've read and saw many, so to speak, horror stories on LinkedIn in particular with business founders who have distributed teams across the world and they need to send money to various team members and then their accounts get locked out. And they can't pay the salaries for their staff. So I'm guessing this is also one of the most important use cases as well.

Absolute truth. I know a few founders who suffered this pain and, you know, when you are just thinking about how to grow your business, how to survive, and then at some point you just have your bank account locked because of the salary sent to some exotic country due to bank's internal procedures.

But for Mercurio as well, you've built your teams across cultures and time zones. I'm wondering, Peter, what's a particular rule that you didn't compromise on when you hired people for such a fast-growth fintech like Mercurio?

It's a very good question. I think from beginning we had some experience that helped us to develop what we call now the Mercurial culture. We had an experience when we were working really hard and some of our key engineers, they would just burn out. And at some point they said, I can't do that anymore. We had to reflect on that and think what should we do. And at that point, it was early in our journey. We realized that we should spend our time, me and my other founders, on working with the team, building the team, not just throwing the tasks, guys, we need to do this and this, but having some internal meetings, discussions, not only about the business, but spending some time together. So meetups where we, it is not, let's say, regular meetups as you sometimes see in big companies where it is scripted and there is not a lot of life there. So we, me and my co-founder, we participate in almost every Friday meetup. We take the questions, we comment, we engage and we try to build this atmosphere where people share what they are doing, their success. There are failures as well and we discussed it. It is a bit harder when you have a few hundred people. So it was way easier when we were just 10-20 people. But I think it helped us a lot on building a team. And this one of the key thing, if person super successful is a star, A-player, and he or she does not fit in our culture. So it's not a thing that we are ready to compromise on.

And how do you know if it's not a fit? Is it during the interview or have you discovered also later on that they weren't a fit?

The majority of cases, you can feel it through the interview, through those first calls. Sometimes we get some people on board and And then they fall out after some time being actually good with the team, delivering some of the points, but then starting to clash with the team. And this is the moment we clearly understand so that we need to split ways. So it's painful, but we understand that this is one of our core priorities for Valeus.

So when you moved from a team of 20 to a team of over 300, When you, when you look back, what's something about scaling Mercurio that no startup playbook prepares you for, especially in the fintech space?

It's a, um, it's a thing that you should always learn and understand what is this point about the business. So when you start, it is obviously you're thinking about, uh, uh, How do we launch the first product? How do we onboard the first customer? And we know from our experience, although the product was great, to have this one, the first customer onboard was not really easy. And then later you switch to having, do we have other products that we need? So we have a nice story when I think it was Binance, when they onboard, launched our on-ramp. And then they say, guys, actually we are moving to payment gateway. We need payment gateway solution. And we didn't have a solution at that point. So we, we reflected on that and we decided to build the payment gateway. And next time a really large customer wanted our payment gateway, we had it as a solution and we provided it. So moving from being reactive to being proactive, that was the key on the next level. And now, for example, I understand that my focus is more on Building the team, hiring the people, on making those people comfortable to work together. So I would say that understanding the stage where you are, understanding key needs is one of the most important things. The second one I would say is that keep constantly learning. People say you need to learn from mistakes. Well, you would be a lot more successful if you can learn from your small successes. So If you understand and you can think what we actually did right, how we can use it in future. So it is really useful. For sure, if there is a failure, we should think how we won't have it in the future, how we can mitigate that, what we should do. Constantly learning on small things and understanding on failure, both failures and successes. So it's the key.

Speaking of mistakes, is there a lesson you had to learn the slow, hard, and possibly expensive way as well that someone never warned you about in the world of business and fintech?

I think I mentioned this thing with people really getting burned. At the moment when you launch the company, you don't think about, you think about how to launch the product. Have some first traction, but there is some point when some of the people say like, we are not ready, so we can't do that. And you're in the middle of the process, you want to deliver something, and this is a real pain. And as I mentioned, we learned from that and we got really good understanding what we should do in the future.

Coming back to fintech and crypto, Peter, is there something that you think is overhyped right now and something that's a real opportunity for founders to get into the space?

I think that there are always, uh, some, uh, categories, uh, that are overhyped and, uh, it is not actually a bad thing. When you have some hype parts of the business, there are a lot of money inflows there. You can have more time for your learning curve to build something. You just need to be aware of competition. And that's a lot of talented teams who would work on that. I think that's now crypto itself is growing. So the stablecoin aspect, everyone's talking about stablecoin. For example, I personally believe that launching stablecoin now, it's stablecoin itself is a a bit too late, but building tools that facilitate stablecoins as rails or build some additional things on that. So API solution to issue stablecoins, add some monitoring tools, some specific use cases there, specifically focused solution on different categories, small businesses, individuals, gig workers. So this is the key. So I would say, would suggest that when you see hype somewhere, don't look straight forward. So just try to think what is around this. And on the other side, it is always important. Any business should be healthy business. It shouldn't be like, guys, everyone is raising money now and we don't have some basic economics in our product. So We will raise money as others. You should have a use case. People should use your product, uh, and, uh, you should earn something.

Speaking of use cases, you navigated a maze of rules from London to Singapore and Dubai. So I'm wondering what's one thing that, uh, found you've seen founders and yourself getting wrong about compliance and all about the different financial rules across the globe. Obviously, it's crypto that can level the playing field. But once it lands in your crypto wallet, you would still have to then transfer that money into your bank account because you can't pay with crypto everywhere.

That's true. You know, from day one, we understood, we had this idea that the moment crypto faces fiat, there should be compliance, there should be regulation, there should be a license for that. You know, in 2017-20, a lot of players were looking at us and saying, guys, you don't need to have a license. So because for Mercurio from day one is a regulated entity and they say, guys, you can operate from islands, from somewhere, no one knows where. And we are actually disrupting this world with regulation. So we, we will have it in easier way. Our understanding, and that I think that's important part of our DNA, is that we understand that compliance should be there. For sure, we, uh, we need to have tailored for crypto operations for potential use cases. But on the other side, we should be able to demonstrate regulators, our partners, uh, the tools, how we mitigate the risk. And I think with having that in mind, it is way easier to navigate now between different jurisdictions because ultimately what regulators or partners wish, they want to have some comfort about how you deal with risks. And if you have proper policies, tools in place, so it's way easier to communicate. There are different aspects. In different parts of the world. And in different parts of the world, uh, uh, regulators sometimes think about different things, uh, you should work on. But ultimately, if you have, uh, proper setup, if you have, uh, say, a template of, uh, operations that you have, and then you tailor it for specific jurisdictions, uh, it way easier.

And what's the, the least friendlier place for cryptocurrency at the moment?

Uh, you know, I, I would better focus on what is the best place to work now. And, um, you know, I, I, I really enjoy the shift, uh, in the US, uh, from this prohibiting approach to, uh, approach where you encourage companies to build and you attract companies there. So I really appreciate how it, uh, now these environments of crypto building in the US.

So you're basically sitting at the intersection of traditional finance and crypto. So I'm wondering what's been the hardest part of convincing both old-school banks and new-age Web3 players to actually trust you with this intermediary part?

I think the most challenging part was with incumbent banks to work on. You know, one of the issues we suffered in the beginning that we need to have a team who is capable of building proper compliance tools, monitoring tools, and there were no people with experience in crypto. When you went to the market in 2020 or 2021, you could open a LinkedIn or just ask a HR agency to find 5 or 10 people with experience in crypto compliance, crypto regulation. There were no people like this. And the way it was, you need to first find someone with open mind from traditional fintech and then make this person excited about what we're building. Excited about, uh, I think that this person will have to learn really a lot, uh, almost from the get-go. But on the other hand, I think that you can use your previous experience to build proper tools and setups, uh, in the company. So I think, and when you have those people on board, it is then easier to communicate with banks and say, guys, we mitigate this risk using this. We work with this using this. You don't face any risks here because of. And when person can chat in the same language with the incumbent bankers, so it always helps.

So you basically had to create your own experts in both regulation and compliance, but that comes back to what you were saying earlier about finding the right kind of people that fit the type of culture, and then they would build the experience within your business. And that will then give you the edge when you expand globally.

That's correct.

So we've covered the culture, we covered the hiring, we covered the regulators. Now, you said earlier that you still go in all your Friday meetings. So I'm wondering then, how, when the business is now at 300+ people, how do you keep your entrepreneurial edge and the spirit alive? And what do you still do yourself that other founders might delegate? Is there something that you kept control of, a particular thing? Some people still keep a, um, keep an eye on their emails while some people delegate that task altogether? Is there something that you held on to?

There are a few things that I still want to be involved in. I really love working with the team on new products. With new products in the company like us, 300 people, it's not thousands in large tech companies, but it is not also like a few dozens of people. So there are some processes and some red tape. So, and if you launch something new, the majority of people will say, guys, it's a new thing. We have a revenue here. We should focus on that. And you need to help the team that launches something new to get some get some focus from other teams. I really love to help with this first 0 to 1. It is the really important thing there. And also I think that with our meetups, so we do things where we like every week, for example, some different teams, they present what they are doing, what they're working on. And there is some time when we are as founders, when we come and share what we built, what we are working on, what are the next steps, so, and to have this conversation with the team, so I believe, strongly believe that you can delegate that.

Speaking of new products, is there like a feature or a product tweak that you obsessed over that nobody else cared about? Because I understand from my experience as well how it is to be close to new product or new feature launches. Is there, is that a place where you also have to lead with the vision for the company and the product that you want to build, or now you take more direction from the people around the business as well?

It's a very good question. You know, as I mentioned, you need to be in the process of constant learning. And if in the beginning of our journey, I would just take this idea of pitching and pushing this new thing. So now I think we, we need to build a team. Who is launching the product and thinking how to do it best and then encouraging people, helping them to navigate, to understand what they are working on, what are the core values. For sure, sometimes my advice might be a bit not heavy but pushy. So, but I think that it is a teamwork now and I still have passion. I I still believe I really engage and participate, but it is the team who is building the products and who is working on that.

And how do you keep teams together when they're spread around the world and around continents on different timelines and just trying to get everybody on a call and collaborate sometimes in the same timeframe? If a product or a feature needs to be live on a certain date, that's it, rather than, you know, oh, I'm 12 hours ahead or I'm somewhere else and I'm working on a different timeline. How do you manage to keep your teams in sync when they're spread out globally?

I think this is an important culture of being a remote company that people understand that, okay, if there is something urgent, we jump on the call. Sometimes if it is during working hours, so, you would usually jump in with the video and you can solve all the issues. If it is later on, it's okay that people can jump in just to chat with no video, traveling somewhere. So, and they feel okay with that. They feel comfortable with that. So this is the culture of understanding that we are all in different places and meeting in Zoom or Teams. It's the place where you just meet with your, not teammates, but also friends. And it helps a lot. You know how it should go. So you don't start just straightforward. So guys, we need to discuss this. There are a few minutes where you just decompress. You're asking, how do you do? How is the weather? So asking small things like this, it helps. And I also think that important part and coming back to culture. I think that for me, one of the main things that really benefits me when I hear from the team that someone is saying, okay, so I actually work in evening, sometimes I work on the weekend and the first idea for me is like, although You will burn out the person. No, no, I'm okay. I really enjoy that. And well, in this moment, I feel that we are on the right track and we are building something good for people. Because ultimately, if a person unhappy, if he or she doesn't enjoy, there is the idea, no benefit for them to engage. And if person really enjoys, they can spend their free time on the work. And they feel comfortable with that. So that's the best thing that can happen.

Speaking of burnout, what's a habit or a system that you swear by to avoid founder burnout?

You know, from the first thing when some of our teams were burnt out, I really thought a lot about this. And now my mix of activities has a few things. So the first one is physical activities, workouts. Is a must. If I miss one day, I've started to feel a bit uncomfortable. So, and especially when you travel somewhere, you have a long flight.

So exercise every day.

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and, um, the second important part is sleep. I have a clear understanding of sleep. Tailored solution for me, how to get to sleep, what are the best, uh, time, and, uh, like trying to monitor that, say, if, uh, sleeping properly, if I have a good recovery, and so on.

So 8 hours is something that you swear by?

Yeah, for me it's important to have the— this, uh, some part of your bedtime when you're awake. Ultimately, it should be 8:30 something, 8:45 to have this 8 hours of proper sleep. Yeah, trying to stick to that. So it's my must. And you know, I'm really jealous of people who can sleep 6 hours. So I can't do that. I know that if I sleep 7 hours, well, I would have a tough day. And I try to stick to like 8 hours of sleep. Oh yeah.

Are you an early riser or a late riser?

So, you know, previously I was a late riser, but then you just monitor and you see when you sleep best.

As you advance through your 30s, yes.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And you understand that starting the sleep early is better. Waking up early is also better.

And exercise and sleep are the two key ones that you say keep you away from burnout?

I would say a few more things. One of the really important things is to find the tool to restore your energy, your mental health. And it works different ways for different people. For some of the people, it is just lying and watching favorite series. For some people it's walking, traveling. For me, it is meeting with friends, spending time with family. So, uh, this works a lot. And you need to understand that at some points, uh, when you have hard times, uh, at work, uh, and you don't have time for that, it's a mistake. You should always keep in mind that, okay, you can have sprint. But ultimately, if you want to be at this high level for quite some time, you need to have this tool to restore your energy. So, and some smaller things, for example, I realized that keeping an eye on media during the day when someone is screaming, this is the Spaceship launch. So, I mean, in terms of crypto, this crypto is this script is falling, this project is great. So it makes me anxious. So, and I try to have an eye on some updates in the end of the day. Ideally, I wish I could do it once a week with a proper update. So I'm lucky now that today I have a team who is monitoring that. And in case something happens, you can let me know. Working with this anxiety, it's really important and trying to have it limited. For sure, you need to dig in to understand what's happening around you, but not like you have a separate tab with your Zoom calls and you just read something new.

So in a way to keep focused, you had to disconnect from the news cycle. But still try and keep some connection to it, but not have it on a rolling basis, whether it's through social media or through traditional media outlets.

Exactly, exactly. Ideally, you have some time in the end of the week where, or in the middle of the week, but some dedicated time where you can have, like, for example, these are 5, 10 articles or podcasts or things that I want to, uh, or reports I want to go through. Uh, I want to, um, spend my time, uh, with them understanding how, how it works. Uh, what are the new things? What are the insights?

Looking at building Mercurio almost 7 years in now, there's no success and growth without sacrifice. So I'm wondering, Peter, what were some of the sacrifices you had to make to be where you are today?

I think I had a few of them. One is smaller, one is more meaningful for me. So the smaller one was, is losing comfort. Before Mercurio, I had a really healthy business, business that was profitable, earning money. At some point, when I fell in love with crypto, all the friends, all the colleagues, they, are you mad? Why are you changing that for some ridiculous idea? And to be honest, at that point, that was just an idea. And they were right. But I had this feeling inside me that I need to start it, to focus on this new venture, not like spend 20 or 30% on that, but really focus on that to build it. So it proved to be right now, but at first it was not an easy choice.

But you said this was the small sacrifice.

Yeah, it did, it did. And the really bigger one is my family, for example, but my wife knows that she has a competitor.

Mercurio, yes.

Yeah, exactly. My business is the main competitor to family and keeping this balance. And because, you know, business is always absorbing you, absorbing your time, your energy. You can never have this frame that's Like, this is it, not anymore. So if you're really engaged and passionate as I am, I want to spend time there, but I understand that I need to spend time with family as well and to have this proper balance. So for example, trying to have some more quality time with family, with kids, where we do some specific fully dedicated on that, not just like one hand with phone and emails and other with kids. So, but if I'm doing something with them, I focus on that. I really do. Although sometimes they complain it's not enough, but I think that that's one of the key sacrifices I had to make.

So how do you achieve this balance then? Because I'm assuming, and again, from my previous experiences and other people I've spoken to, There could be like really busy weeks and weekends when you're preparing to launch something new when you won't be there as much. So do you try to make up for that later on in the month, in the year, maybe with a special holiday if you had a super busy year and you haven't been there as much?

Yeah, I think it's the right approach and I try to do that. Some of the things, well, sometimes I travel. A lot sometimes we work really hard on something and I'm being transparent about that. I'm saying, guys, now, now let's say I'm off, so I am focused on business. But at some point you understand that this is the period when you have some less pressure and I prefer to focus at that time family and try to engage to do something. And on the other side, some regular routine with small things. So for example, I try to take my kids to school in the morning. So to spend this short period, but constant period of time. So if I'm in town, it is most probably me, school dad, dropping off kids. So yeah.

So it's easier to do it in the morning. You said you're an early bird as well, and you have no choice with children, do you? You have to wake up early.

Exactly. Exactly.

So is that what actually changed when from a late bird you became an early bird?

It's a fair point. And you, you, you need to adjust.

Speaking of adjustments, did, did it change your focus and your meaning on your business when you had your children?

You know, the interesting thing, I think that definitely changed, but I think that I learned to be more, uh, more trying to understand other people, more trying to engage in conversation and understand the point. So I became more calm because actually kids are learning you to be calm, uh, because if you're not, it is hard time for you. So, and sometimes your point is not always right. Uh, so you can prove something to your 4-year-old or 5-year-old. So you need to engage. And actually that, that works in business as well. So I think that I became more open for discussions, although I have a point, we can argue on that. But I think having kids helped me.

Okay. Is this, is this the point that you think you would, we would argue about?

I think no. Uh, so I, uh, I understand when some people say that it's, uh, became harder for me, uh, having kids, uh, young kids, uh, so, uh, they are distracted from work. There are some basic things that you always doing it. I think that all that true. I see some positive things and, uh, I try to stick with that.

So. Peter, as we wrap up our conversation, wondering if you could send an unfiltered WhatsApp message or email to your younger self before you started Mercurio, what would you advise yourself?

I would say, you know, I, uh, I would suggest, uh, thinking that, uh, being open to, uh, others, uh, other people's ideas. So sometimes you can spend your energy on fighting with someone, on proving the point, and, uh, it doesn't make actually sense. So it's better to use your energy together. To build something than to use your energy for fighting. So, and I think I, like, 10 years before, I spent a lot of energy on trying to prove something, like fighting and making the point. So my suggestion would be that you should use your energy in a productive way on building something, so on engaging people, don't just lose it.

And that applies both in business and in life.

Yeah. All right.

Well, that's, that's a great thought to wrap up our conversation today, Peter. Thank you so much for joining on Millennial Masters and sharing your story and some of your learning so far.

Thanks a lot. Thanks for inviting me. And that was a pleasure.

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