Your network is worth more than money 🤝 David Homan

7 out of 10 of the people I meet don't give a crap about me and aren't curious. Turns out that's correct. Actually, uh, 34% of people you meet will express curiosity back to you when you are curious and vulnerable to them. The rest, nope, here's my card, move on. Which means the majority of people that people meet are a waste of their time. And those people wonder why they don't get the advantage, why they don't build the network, why they don't get the funding. The people who are curious are a minority, and if we were simply to invert What if 70% of the people that you met, that you were curious with and were curious with you, were worth it? As opposed to 30-something percent. It's really, it's just not hard.

This week's Millennial Master is David Homan, the connector behind one of the most powerful private networks in the startup world. For more than a decade, David has been building something many entrepreneurs underestimate. Orchestrated Connecting is a global network of over 2,000 family offices, startup founders, and impact investors built around a system that turns introductions into real opportunity. His method centers on trust that leads to funding, partnerships, and long-term growth. In this episode, we talk about why relationships are the ultimate currency in business, how to raise before you need to raise, and the chain of connection rule that most founders ignore. David, welcome to Millennial Masters. How are you today? And where are you joining us from?

I'm doing great, Daniel. Thank you for having me. And I'm interviewing with you from the heart of Manhattan, New York City.

Love New York. And if any keen listeners would have their headphones on, they might hear a bit of the New York sounds, which is adding to the atmosphere. But let's get straight to it, David, because before the book and the networks, what were you actually doing day to day when you first realized relationships mattered the most?

I had grown up in a family where my mother ran 4 nonprofits, and since 8 years old, I helped her. Initially I did data entry. Eventually I was running them with her by the time I was a teenager. So when I finished grad school in New York, I started in the nonprofit sector, specifically in arts, and I did everything from raising money for a dance company, running different galas, helping manage a small chamber orchestra, founding festivals. And then I landed at 26, a really incredible opportunity. This was a very old Israeli foundation whose entire mission was cross-cultural understanding by supporting young artists of all types in Israel. So this was the likes of, you know, Itzhak Perlman and Daniel Barenboim and some of the greats in all the arts. And my job for 14 years was to lead this foundation as its global executive, to fundraise, to make sure our programs were intact. And in the very beginning of that really incredible journey, this little old Ponzi scheme called caused by Bernie Madoff came along. And so I thought. Take over a foundation, be an incredible allocator, be in the philanthropic sector. What was thrust upon me at the beginning of the housing bubble recession was the necessity of thrive or die. And that's when my world of networking changed.

So that was the specific moment that flipped the switch for you, as well as through the fundraising where a lot of the networking is required in, in order to, to do that for all the foundations you've, um, worked for, right?

So yes, but instead of flipping the switch, it was like when you're at, like, you know, you have that really great dimmer installed in your bathroom and then you just push it up incredibly slowly. It took me 2 years to understand what that switch flipping actually was. Because I did what I was not taught to do. In philanthropy, you're taught to talk to people who look like you, who talk like you. In this case, this was people who cared about the arts and specifically Israel.. And I had mastered those networks. I had been in different circles. I knew a lot of the wealth holders. I had them on my board. I had permeated whatever bubble I could get to, not realizing the bubble till everything fell apart. And so I did something that was antithetical at the time. I got involved in people investing in startups, specifically women founders, early social justice, Black and brown entrepreneur movements, climate change, mental health, women in sports, everything that was impact. But had nothing, literally nothing to do with arts and culture for youth. And so 2 years of that, I was networking, going to events, building a different set of communities and supporting people. Then all of a sudden, everything started to become more clear. Not fully clear, 'cause I was actually pretty dense about this for about 5 years total. But my network became my greatest support. It was really my community. Over 85% of the donations that I raised, and I was responsible for about 90% of the fundraising for this charity, they all came from people in my network, their trusted friends. And that's when I realized about 5 years in, I built not just a network of trust, but a network of trust from the trust makers, what we now would proudly call connectors or super connectors. And when I realized I built this private network of connectors, I realized none of them knew each other. And my whole goal, still my life's passion, connecting connectors to each other. That's what everything, what I call my orchestrated connecting world, has come about from. This idea of give first without an expectation. Figure out who has the right integrity, the right intentions, and the right purpose around you. And by supporting them without an expectation of return, there is a return. It just takes this web of introductions, this ripple effect, and the patience of it to see what actually can be built.

And you wrote an entire book about these connections and creating this momentum between people. And I'm hoping that we can start breaking it down step by step for, for what you said.

So what I would say is I wrote a book, but I wouldn't have been able to get the book published and off the ground except for my co-author, who's an incredible professor named Noah Askin, who's taught at INSEAD Paris and now UC Irvine in their business school. A lot of what I do, right, I talk about this. I look at the patterns of theories and I speak about it. Noah was able, able to help me formalize and systematize all of this thinking into a fully fledged methodology. Because everything that I say, and I'll break down the simplest part of the 5 principles right now, so everyone listening understands what the book Orchestrating Connection: How to Build Purposeful Community in a Tribal World, what it's about. Because everything I've talked about—

Linked in the show notes.

Thank you. And thank you everyone who's either read it or does because of this incredible podcast. Um, nothing I talk about is actually that new. It's the systematic way you think about combining these that becomes incredibly hard. And this is just, you know, as a shout out for my own music, because I use this world of orchestrating. The same way as I use as a composer. My music seems very easy to play when performers start to get their hands into it. Then when they realize that there's an emotional through line and a depth that if they slip up once, the audience is no longer with them. The way I describe this philosophy of how to be, how to orchestrate your life is the same thing. So it's this simple. If you start in your world with the self-work of understanding how you can become more curious and more vulnerable, You build the two biggest strengths possible to build a larger purposeful community around you. When you take that strength and you make it as diverse as possible, as I alluded to before, right? My whole secret came from getting out of my bubble. So my network has more women than men. When people go to events, they are shocked when they are somebody of color or Indigenous or whatever might be quote different or other, that sometimes they're the majority of a room that a medium-height white Jewish guy created. And it's not just people in New York. You know, I have, I have a network that's global. So I connect people in Perth or Adelaide to each other, never having been to Australia. I connect friends who were ultra-high-net-worth Bulgarians to each other across the globe, focused on mental health. The diverse mindset is key because everyone thinks the more insular and focused your network is, the better it is. And I can prove from a decade of doing this professionally that it's not. And once you take all that, right, you can have a really curious temperament, as you obviously do, doing your podcast, Daniel. You can have lots of empathy and vulnerability. You can build a diverse network. But if you don't lead with generosity and constantly express gratitude, You fail because the best way to judge whether somebody's really on your side is to actually help them with something that they need and see if they say thank you back. Or when somebody helps you to express that gratitude. These are the 5 founding principles on their own. And there's a lot of incredible books about each of them. They're great. I hope everyone can do some of them, but the systems approach of this means that when you do this, you were actually more purposeful. And incredibly introspective because to be ready to do all of these, you have to do a lot of self-work first.

So let's start with the self-work first, because you found that out after you've been through the whole process, but we are trying here to make it easier for everybody to understand that. And I'm trying to put it from a founder or an entrepreneur lens. And sure, let's start framing it as everything I've heard. And from my experience, entrepreneurs and founders start networking the moment they need something. If they need, for example, to raise funds in particular, and they will start going to networking events, conferences, et cetera, to do that. And again, from what A lot of people have told me who have successfully raised millions or tens of millions, they, um, this work starts way, way, way in advance with relationships.

It does.

And that's where I'm gonna pass the ball on to you and hopefully you can guide us through this journey.

Sure. So I'll give you case in point, which is my own startup called Soar Connect, which I'm just closing my pre-seed round for. My friends and friends round, because I have no family that could invest. When I started to raise it last year, it took me 2.5 months in a horrible market for fundraising for startups, 2.5 months to close $563,000.

Well, let's just say compared to the UK, you know, an F&F round, that's more like closer to, you know, Series A here in the UK. So for, for an F&F, you've done very well compared to the UK, that is.

For my next round, I really started November 17th, when my product became demonstratable. And in that 6 weeks, I'm going to have closed another $600,000 to $750,000.

Amazing.

With people that I know.

So how did you do that?

With people that I trust, people who trust me, where I've only asked them when it's relevant, or they've come to ask me because they've seen what I'm doing, but I've not made the relationship about the transaction.

Mm-hmm.

So as you alluded to perfectly, the mistake most entrepreneurs make is that they come to build something when they have a need and they make the interaction about that need. It's great to meet you. I see you're an investor. Would you look at my deck? Do you know what I ask investors besides how their day is or what they're, what's, you know, what they're focused on? I ask them what they need and then they tell me. And then because I've spent time building a network, I go, oh, well, if you're focused, on, um, combating anti-Asian hate, API-focused work, you should meet Bing. You should meet Patrick. You should meet Sophia. You should meet my network that also care about this. And then I connect them again, no expectation in return. It takes a while to build this, but when you build it right, not only is it more enjoyable because you have relationships where transaction can occur, but it doesn't define the relationship. But when you have a relationship first, people are thinking about you without you asking to think about them. So think about laying the framework for everyone excited about what you're going to build, the area that you're in, the expertise you have, their belief in you. And what if you come up in conversation with them without actually having to talk to them about it anymore? Them being at a conference, a family office conference, an investors-only event. If you're in the impact space and you can't make it to SoCap, but somebody's there that, you know, how do you build champions for what you need? And it's as practical as being curious when you meet somebody, not jumping into your pitch, having enough vulnerability. And this is the scary part for most people, right? In the middle of my fundraising, I'm going out and I'm telling people like, listen, whether you invest in me or not, I just need to know. My father's in hospice. I've never dealt with the loss of a parent, and I'm not sure where I'm going to be or what I'm going to do, but I know that our relationship is strong enough for me to just tell you that and you not to feel guilty that my dad's dying. And therefore you should invest if you believe in me, invest. If not, just give me the respect of an answer. And I ended up with 48 investors total over 2 rounds. I ended up with a list of about 120 people. Who respectfully just said to me, it's not for me. I didn't end up with that massive list that most founders have of people who might get back to you, people who say they're in, but then don't return your calls, people who ghost you like it was a bad date, even though you stayed over. Like there's all these issues that happen with founders. I did experience that, but to a lesser degree, because we both know me pitching and those people investing, that the relationship would stay intact because we put the effort in first.

But it took also years to build those relationships before you were able to discuss about your product and/or investment opportunities, right?

It did, but everyone is sitting with a network. What they may not be sitting with is a much more intentional or purposeful community. So if you're thinking of raising in a 6-month before you raise, you went to all the people who could be likely investors and said, I'd love to catch up. What are you doing? How can I be help? Period. Just that. They do not get asked it. My network is an insane number of family offices and next gens and billionaires and celebrities. And when I sit, especially with my friends who are next gens or very known investors, and I say, what do you need? They are shocked because they never get that question.

Yeah. They're, they're typically used to being asked for stuff to give rather than to receive.

Actually, not even to give, because give implies an understanding. They're, they're being told essentially, I have something important. Give me something to make what I'm doing more. For all of my investors, I came to them with one simple premise, which is this is a problem I have. I believe you have it too. Would you talk about this problem with me and learn about what I'm doing? And everyone who took a call was self-filtering to be curious to me. And then in, in the pitch, I didn't actually pitch them. I was curious to them. Daniel, do you have a problem with all the conferences, the people that you meet, aggregating all your data in one place privately and securely? Do you have a problem remembering all the people that you've met without endlessly entering them into a CRM or some algorithm that gives you false leads? And how do you demonstrate trust? You know, for me, if I'm going to spend, like, for instance, if in a year from the recording this podcast, I join you in Romania to see the best of our mutual heritage, that shows a much different level of relationship. How many people would you travel with? How many people would you talk to every month for half an hour? And so I would approach my pitch with curiosity to see if somebody had thought about this. What I was really doing is saying, I've thought about this. Yes, I do run a global network. This is my expertise, but I saw a problem that wasn't being met. If you see that problem with me, then the question back to them was, what are you raising? What's the valuation? Who do you have involved? How, how does this work? Where can I be useful? Not, I need a check from you. And so the whole approach is to be human, to figure out that if you're going to meet somebody and pitch them and they're having a bad day because their dog's sick, talk about their dog being sick. And if you lost a pet, losing a pet, you don't lose an opportunity if you connect humanely, but you miss every opportunity to build the relationship first. If you're just set on a mission, I have to close in 6 months or I can't pay for my employees. I can't make my round. And by that point, you've made the mistake because you're sitting on a network that could transform into a much more intentional community.

Before you do that, you said you had to do some self-work, and I would possibly add that a lot of people feel like they're introverts, so they're not comfortable opening up in public or to people as much as maybe you and I do. Because of our work and roles. How can you overcome that and what self-work do you need to do first?

You know, I couldn't begin to tell every listener what they need to do. All I can say is what worked for me. So I was a kid. I was actually, it was a joke, but not a funny joke, called autistic by a lot of people growing up because I didn't have an expressive demeanor. And I was the son of a Shakespearean and became an actor and trained as an actor. And I can just be stone cold in response unless I believe that there is empathy to be exchanged. I had two panic attacks dealing with my own mental health in my twenties, mostly because I didn't spend the time focusing on how to manage my stress and how to have the right people around me. So that gets me until 26 when I get this big job and I have my second panic attack. Not cuz of Madoff, that was 2 years later, only cuz of the work that I have done repeatedly in mindfulness, in positive intelligence and positive thinking, in journaling, my own self-expression, which in this case is music, in being unapologetic more and more of the people I want around me and the people that I don't who drag me down. I stumbled through all of that until I reached a point where the world was here and I wanted something from it and nothing I was doing was enough to get there. And so what I did is I went to a large number of friends and I asked them to tell me what they thought of me, good and bad, what they saw my strengths, what they saw my weaknesses. And I, 140 conversations later. I had a sense of who I was without it being from me. All that work led to just honing what I do and understanding that I'm actually an introvert, but I thrive when there's empathy and I thrive because I would rather create it and do all that work than hope I step into a conversation, an interview, or an event that might make me comfortable. Most don't. People might see me as comfortable or eloquent or whatever it might be. I am not that person. I am the shy kid who got sick when I was 12. Every moment I step into a room and to overcome that is arts training, mindfulness, mental health, and understanding that how you see yourself is nothing compared to understanding how other people see. That's the self-work that I am constantly doing.

And 140 friends to ask them what they feel, how they perceive you is quite a large number. I would say that most people would not, would have acquaintances in those numbers, but not actual friends who would open up or give you a frank and open assessment of how they perceive you. Why was the question you actually asked?

So to frame this, had switched from the foundation job to running, building a film company for the financier Ray Dalio and one of his kids, uh, and, uh, the husband and wife. It was another dream job. COVID hit. Hollywood died. And then my friends unfortunately lost their oldest brother in a car crash. And I was put into a decision, you know, I could stay on as an advisor, but this company wasn't going to be built anymore.

More.

So I had a small runway of time where I needed to find a job or build something. And so not everyone was a close friend. Some were people that I just had an instinct about. I liked them from 5 years before, and I invited a bunch of them to just schedule a 20-minute Zoom call. I know it's 140 because that was the amount of time I allocated. And I have, I still have the list. And I said to all of them, I'm in a bit of a soul searching. I have an idea of everything that I want to do, but I don't know how other people see me. Given that you've met me in the past, if you care enough about helping me, would you take 20 minutes to just tell me how you saw me when we met, how I've delivered for you, if I have, and what you see as my greatest strengths? And people walked in prepared. They thought about it. They thought about how they would feel being asked that themselves. And time after time again, I heard the same thing over and over again. And what it confirmed was I've been lying to myself my entire life about who I was in comparison to what people saw me as. For example, you know, I don't like to have— I like to be humble. People see me as an incredible public speaker. Like one of the top they've ever seen. They see me put words together and change their thinking. I run events in a way that is different than other people because they're just an intentional, a way that actually now has led to almost 200 of my own events, all sold out on a global scale. I was told repeatedly that my skill wasn't as a musician or a leader. My skill was the combination of these things that I led from the heart. I was fully proud to be a musician and a composer, and I could also run a multimillion-dollar organization. And all those things were resume builders. What everyone said to me is, you're the most natural leader we know because you lead from place number 2 and everyone knows you're the one leading it. You don't take the spotlight, but you are the spotlight. I heard repeatedly over and over that it was my time to take what I was doing and to own it. It was my time to recognize that what I did was different and in many cases better than most, because I'd put a decade of thought into it. Same thing with the startup. Like a lot of my early investors said, we've never come into a pitch session for a friends and family round. Where somebody has spent 6 years mapping prototypes in whiteboarding sessions and has a full MVP map for 2 iterations of the build ready to go that we can look at. I'm thinking that's normal. Of course, I'm gonna prepare first. Why would I ask you for money if I wasn't ready to build what needed to be built? If I hadn't studied it, that's not normal for a lot of founders. A lot of founders have that idea and they're given money and time to explore it. Not only was I ready, but my lead investor, incredible Irishman named Brendan, when we built MVP 1, we actually were able to build 60% of MVP 2 in the first round of funding because everything we had as a question, I already had it as an answer. And I saw that preparation as normal for me, turned out to be abnormal for most others.

And that's possibly true. A lot of people don't have that much time in mapping and preparing their product and/or idea. Idea. So if you weren't that well prepared, what would be a route to, um, not necessarily get there, you'll still need that, but to project the right kind of maybe confidence or determination, possibly more, to get that product out and make it successful in a networking context where you are also trying to raise funds?

So there are two types of people that I see pitch. There's the bravado type who are really great. They're often really great looking. They have some pedigree. They are often a white male. And because of the confidence they exude, they're able to convince somebody that they're not a risk. Mm-hmm. And then there's that diamond in the rough type, that person who is just— you want to root for, they know what they're doing, but they can't sell themselves. Both have to approach things with the same but inverse intention. So if you happen to be that stereotype or somebody who was very eloquent and able as a founder to pitch, you need humility. You need to honestly talk about what you don't know, what you're going to explore. You need to circumvent the questions that investor is used to asking, and you need to bring them into your pitch. Into your answers before you're asked those questions. So when somebody says to me, you know, well, how is this going to be a 10x? What's your go-to-market plan? I already have an answer, but I already answered it in the prior answer because I literally nipped it in the bud. And when you're that more of an introverted founder, somebody maybe who's more technical, or you just are uncomfortable pitching or selling yourself. Don't sell yourself, be humble and just talk about why you want to do this, the reasons behind it and how much insight that you've put into it. The bravado has to go down to question yourself and that more introverted, more passive way to pitch it has to just show the amount of introspective introspection, uh, to demonstrate that you're ready to build. But either way, you have to be able to look somebody in the eye and say, I'm going to build this. I might fail doing it, but I'm going to build it. I'm going to give it everything. And people who aren't ready are in conversations where they're trying to convince themselves while trying to convince somebody else. I knew I was ready. I might completely fail, but I've also thought about why I might fail, but it doesn't matter because what I'm building is a solution everyone wants. And so if I'm building something that you want, then let's question it together. Once you're together in a conversation, a pitch with somebody, you've actually had enough wherewithal to ask questions in a pitch back. The biggest insight you can gain from somebody is what they need, what their ask is.

Mm-hmm.

That happens to be what my technology is based on. If I can give you enough trust to know what you need to help you hone it and make your ask. What happens with the systematic technology to match asks with people that you trust to each other? Not a LinkedIn first degree or meeting somebody online and jumping into business. But if Daniel Ionescu said to you, you need to meet 3 of my friends. And one of them is incredible visionary family office friend named Luca from Serbia. You should, you should talk with him about what he's doing with entrepreneurs and founders. I've known this guy for 6 years. We're at 15 conferences a year together. I trust him. I would trust my kids with him. My goal was to build a system where that narrative meets matching asks where people don't know each other. And when you look at the world of relationships, which obviously you're in for all of the interviews that you've done and your focus on supporting entrepreneurs and founders and your own work, it all goes down to how do you get people to match their curiosity into action? Let's have that dialogue. Whatever your subject, it could be fintech for dog walkers. It doesn't make a difference. If you care about it and you can figure out somebody else cares, then you're starting to solve a problem they've been thinking about. If they don't care about it and they're not curious to learn, don't waste your time. Either way, you, you're trying to pitch them.

Before you get in the room to pitch them, you obviously had a head start in creating this network and relationships, but a lot of entrepreneurs, non-millennials, but even younger in their early 20s, you, they would've studied at university, created a network there to a certain extent. That's what university is mostly about, at least in my view.

Mm-hmm.

Or if you're a young founder, how do you start creating your network? Do you just Do you pick networking events to go to where you get a name badge and you speak to the person nearest to the bar? Do you go to conferences? How do you approach, how do you start from scratch?

So here's what I'd say, and this is with respect to people in particular who were born with no wealth, no privilege, who are women, people of color, all the unfortunately not natural advantages, especially in the startup world, because most of that world is still unfortunately put with that implicit bias of looking at the person, whether they conform to how you see yourself and whether they strengthen your view of the world. So I want to say all that with respect, because, you know, I am a white man. I grew up middle class in Florida as a college professor's kid. I didn't inherit this network that I have now. Like, I systematically built it. And so the answer is I lived my life. I was in the nonprofit sector. So I made friends and connections, mostly in the nonprofit sector. Some of those people happened to be donors, philanthropists, which means in their other hat, they happened to be investors or family offices or venture capitalists. In other settings, I was literally just going to do and watch my friends do improv comedy. And I met people who liked improv comedy. Some of them turned out to be lawyers or doctors. What is around you and where you live your life is the place to start because you've already built a community. I don't think there's starting from scratch unless you've just grown up, you're 15, you try to figure out how to build it. You're starting that. Anyone who is at a university or college, um, or started working. You would be surprised what your network's network actually is. Once you start to ask with intention, and it's not, I'm going to raise for a startup. I need money. It's my passion is this. I want to amplify it. I'm looking for relationships that can help me get there. And if you're just starting, do you know anyone that could mentor me? Anyone that's running a startup, anyone that successfully sold a startup. Do you know any groups where I can meet the founder and learn about how to do this? And then your network can transform because no one knows who their friends' friends know. And let me give you and everyone listening, one of the most profound examples of this. And this was how the charity that I was running got its largest gift in its history. And basically saved it. So I was running this arts charity focused on Israeli artists, and these were Christian, Jewish, Arab, Druze, Bedouin. It was all types. Were you the best in your field? And we had funded 13,000 at that time, so we knew what we were doing. And I went to every Jewish donor I could. Nothing worked. It worked. We were sustained. When I was 16, On a whim, I applied for a theology camp at Emory University in Atlanta, Georgia. I was the only Jewish person who went. That was the only year they had non-Christians there. And I made some friends. And when Madoff happened, I went to one of those friends who grew up in Columbus, Ohio and went to Ohio State. And I told her what was happening. And she said, you know, um, I'm going to call my brother. So she called her brother. Her brother made an intro to somebody that led me to somebody else who was Muslim in Toronto. That person in Toronto called their friend who was an Asian American, I think in like Albuquerque or something like this. And eventually I got to an incredible journalist at a major newspaper who then not only published an article, but sent that article to somebody that he had previously interviewed, that person turned out to be one of the largest wealth holders in the state of Israel, along with the state of Florida. And 2 years later, there was a ripple effect, not from node to node that you would expect, that resulted in a multimillion-dollar gift and essentially rebirthed this foundation. Now, I wasn't responsible for all of it, but I was responsible for starting that chain. My Israel director was incredible with helping secure this where she was on the ground, but it all started from my curiosity asking a high school friend I didn't go to high school with that I met in the context of religion and a ripple effect from it because I dared to ask. This is what I'm passionate about, that sitting in our network mostly are people who can become our advocates, our champions who can understand our passion and our why, not our need or our want or our desire. And when our need gets met, it is never the way you would expect it to be. And that's what I would encourage every founder listening to this to take at heart. Don't overlook the people around you and don't not spend time helping those who need help that you need to ask if you can help them. Because you don't know what their college roommate's best friend's uncle does, but that guy could run Bertelsmann, could run Waterstones. That person could call up their friend, as once happened with me, and I meet this woman named Jenny, and Jenny starts talking about this charity that she's doing in the UK focused on recovery from strokes and brain health. And then I realized that Jenny, who's an incredible friend that I featured at my first UK-based event 2 years ago, is also the mother of Emilia Clarke, as in Game of Thrones. The actress, the actress, actress, and advocate for brain health and mental health because of what she suffered during the filming. But I would never expect that. I would never expect, and I still hope to help them more. That some of my network who don't know I'm sitting with one degree from an A-list celebrity, my intention is how do I help her mom and her? You cannot map it. You cannot sit and understand what's in your network till you lead with intention. You ask with curiosity, you express that vulnerability, and then you tell people you want to help them. Eventually enough comes back to you that when you have your need, your need gets met better. Faster, more substantively. Otherwise, everyone sees you coming and you say, hey, want to see my deck? I'm building a startup. I got 6 months, which means if, if I don't make this in 6 months, your investment's worthless. Build the relationship first. It's what every founder should do, whatever circumstances they come from, as best as they can. And then like Highlander, right? In the end with all this, there can be only one. If you are the one that people see as the most intentional and capable to do it, it's because you are. And if you're not, you learn by building and maybe the next one is the right one for you.

So David, I'm safely assuming that a lot of these connections you've made over the years have been in person and especially after 2020, a lot of people or entrepreneurs started focusing on growing their network online, more specifically via LinkedIn and what you described, we would go through, say, the second and the third stage of connections rather than your initial connections, but you can't form a digital connection as you would in person, or can you? Have you found a way to do that?

Yes. So when COVID hit, my network was about 400 people. I've been running monthly events in New York and then my network expanded globally overnight. Again, I wanted a very specific type of person. You had to be a connector and you had to be an action-oriented, natural giver that I would leave my children with. That's the code. Not net worth, not name, not company. I wanted that type of person. If you were that person or you could think of somebody, refer them over. I'll jump on a Zoom call. I met people who built Warcraft. I met people who built Leeds Architecture Certification, but they were all the thing I was asking for. They were all connectors. And I built bonds with people where when I see them in person, sometimes we remember we've not yet met in person. So you think about this, right? Take most conversations somebody have— has with you for 30 minutes or an hour. The last 5 minutes of that conversation is where somebody actually then feels comfortable asking for what they need. What is done in advance of that is an exchange, lots, sometimes a lot of banter, sometimes a lot of wasting time, oftentimes a little bit of vulnerability, but just a little bit. I jump into a 30-minute Zoom call. I say in 3 minutes what I'm after. People already know in advance of that call that I'm looking at them as somebody I'd leave my children with, that they've been described as somebody who's a doer and that they're generous. Then I say, this is my goal. And then I say, how can I help you? And within a few minutes, it's a transformation for about 95 to 98% of the intros that I get. Already been self-filtered. I met a guy, I had a call yesterday. He reached out to me on LinkedIn. I don't usually respond to anything cold on LinkedIn. He had no connections to me. He had listened to some podcasts I'd done a year ago. It spoke to him. He commented on it. He told me what he was doing. I jumped in. Now I'm going to fly to Atlanta and Vegas and Dallas to support him because my network can help him and I want to help him. And that was from a cold outreach, but he set his intention. I set mine. We'll meet in person then, but I'm gonna take my time.

And it was cold outreach via LinkedIn. So they, they did that, that was one of the ways that it worked, but—

It worked, but he referenced people that we had in common that he assumed I might trust. In this case, he comes from a sports network and he mentioned a few people and I love those people, just mutual LinkedIn. But he told me why he wanted to talk to me. And when I responded back, I didn't respond with some, some great, here's my Calendly, let's do a call. I told him why I wanted to connect back. I just kept it human. It's actually not that hard. I just said what I was after. Was this a fit for him? He said what he was after. So when we, when we jumped on a call, we jumped in. There was no courtship. And in every Zoom call I do between 15 and 40 a week of people referred into my network. Last year, my network growth was about 452 people. I individually spoke to each of them for half an hour. And in many cases, they also came to my events that are global. But in every case, in that first 5 minutes, do you feel like you're being heard, Daniel? Have I asked with curiosity about you, not jumping into my stump speech? My whole stump speech is how can I be of service? This is what I've done. Is this a fit? Can you—

Yeah, because most people feel like they need to get their way, get their bit out first, and then they can relax, which is also in a way one of the techniques that I approach in my interview because I let people say their bit at the beginning and then I start probing and I go around in the other questions and digging in their other sides. But what you're saying is to flip it. At least in these one-to-one connections that you're making with people.

You have, during the course of this interview, added what I would say is 100% keen, certified, and the correct insight into what founders and entrepreneurs need. You've not simply asked me that and had me give my wisdom. You have added it back while making me feel heard and guiding our conversation. There's an art to it, which you do well. Some people do it well. A lot of people don't because they feel like they have to get it out first. And all I would say to all of those people is, how did that first date work out for you? Why did the person not call back? It's the same. It's the same. If you help somebody, you can cement a relationship for life. If you get them comfortable enough to actually say what they need, they are giving you something that they are building trust with. That then your action cements that trust. And all you have to do is not be that ass of a person at a conference or an event or a coffee meeting that sits and talks about yourself. And in 5 minutes leaves the other person to say what they need. This was the, this was this appalling statistic that my coauthor Noah and I figured out. My assumption was, right, professional conference goer. I go all the time. Sometimes I average 80 a year, not as much since children, but a lot. My assumption was 7 out of 10 of the people I meet don't give a crap about me and aren't curious. Turns out that's correct. It's actually, uh, 34% of people you meet will express curiosity back to you when you were curious and vulnerable to them. The rest Nope. Here's my card. Move on. Which means the majority of people that people meet are a waste of their time because all that person did was say their thing and leave. And those people wonder why they don't get the advantage, why they don't build the network, where they don't get the funding. The people who are curious are a minority. And if we were simply to invert that, what if 70% of the people that you met that you were curious with and were curious with you were worth it, as opposed to 30-something percent.

Well, I don't think we can heal the world when it comes to that through our conversation, but we certainly feel the same in many ways, David, which is why I want to bring it back a bit practical because through your network and your experience, um, Assuming, or I'm pretty sure that you've seen people accidentally burn their social capital without realizing it. So besides talking about themselves too much, which we established is a no-no, what other mistakes do people do to burn their social capital?

Let's say I recommended two people to be interviewed on your podcast, but I said, but you know, they often just don't do what they say they're going to do.

Mm-hmm.

Are you going to have them on? Right? Would you, would anyone want to associate with somebody who's not good for their word, who doesn't do what they say they're going to do?

This is one of my pet hates. So if somebody gave me that reference, I would possibly ask you why are you recommending them if they don't do that?

You might even judge me for it.

Judgmental I can be, but I reserve it without, in different ways.

Fair enough.

So how do you, actually, I would appreciate your honesty in saying they could be great or they are great fit. However, watch out for that because I can tackle it in a different way. I can follow up more days before, chase it more, et cetera. I have been referred to people that were like, they will answer to you, but you need to give like 4 chases until they do. And then they did and they were there. So it really depends. Actually, that, that is an important snippet of information that could be to my advantage. So I wouldn't judge you for it. I would thank you for that.

But let's say I made an, an in— introduction to somebody who turned out to not be ethical, to not follow up with you, to waste your time. I mean, I would never do it. My whole premise is I only have action-oriented people who are ethical and generous, but I give this in a different way because I want people to think about—

you're not responsible for their actions, however.

So you, in my case, you are partly. If I, as a super connector running a network of integrity, or to refer several people to you who agreed to take a call with you, then it is my responsibility either to make sure that they agree to take that call and take it, or if some circumstance comes up where they cannot, to make you feel like you were respected in the absence of that event happening. It is not a handoff where now I'm not responsible for taking your time for something that I made you believe was worth your time. Your time is valuable and an introduction is a currency. Just like a financial transaction.

And this brings us to one of the main topics and ideas and you're close to your heart, these introductions, because it's in a way it happens with the podcast as well, but I have always been referred or people have mentioned, I pretty much ask in a follow-up conversation, anybody in your network who has a great story that you could mention to me, I'll do a bit of research into them and then I'll get back to them and say, yeah, I think they'll be a great fit. Could I have a warm introduction? In 90% of the cases, it was a positive interaction, which also ended up being a podcast guest. So the people who do make such a recommendation after that, I feel that they have the best intentions. And I don't think they do it out of obligation. And maybe that's the difference?

You do it out of respect, out of respect for the time you've given somebody, the time you've given me. When you ask with that intention, somebody says they're going to meet it and you feel they've given it their best effort, then they gave it their best effort. But there's an onus on the person asking you to take the time to make sure the person that they are also giving something to— this case would be for anyone listening that wants to refer somebody to you, or as I will— but are you, are you good for your word? Trust is measured in the time we spend and the time that's taken from us. Trust is measured in the actions taken and diluted in the actions not taken. So if you want to, as per your initial question, if you want to ruin your reputation, then understand your reputation is at value with every interaction you have. And if you are proven to be more of a giver than a taker, then you're a giver. If you take more than you give, you're a taker. And if you're in between that, The work you can do is to understand where you can add more value or be more clear you cannot add value in the interactions that you lead your life with. Because we are the composite of the closest people around us. Our reputation is not decided by us. It's decided by the people around us and the people that we meet because of them. So you can orchestrate this, you can curate it. But you can only do it through all of these soft skills that the book mentions in detail through this practical advice of lead first with generosity and gratitude, build diversity. And don't be that person at a conference when somebody says their dad's sick, who turns around as I had several times and go, so what, so what's your deal? What are you focused on? And I'm thinking, I just told you my dad's in hospice and you said to me, What's your business? I'm going to say very quickly, I connect and then go find somebody else because a human I want to connect with would go, I lost my dad 5 years ago. My grandmother's been sick. She's like a mother to me. And somebody who isn't focused on having empathy would gloss over it. It's why I always say it's okay to be vulnerable. It's a strength and it's not okay when somebody is vulnerable. To dismiss it out of something you feel you need from them, or some desire you have to say what you need to say about yourself. You don't need it. They don't need it. It's actually not fulfilling either way.

So in a network like yours, David, what's the fastest way someone would lose trust, which is the biggest currency from what you're describing?

So this is my one rule, which is called Honoring the chain of connections and knowing that we're coming to time on this podcast, that might be an interesting way to end because this is what I end every event with, virtual and in person. So here is the problem. Relationship value is not valued. Meaning when you're in a place of abundance and you're making introductions, it's great. But when you're not demonstrating that as a value and you have an actual need, it's shocking how few people will help you, even if you help them find a job at the company. You're trying to interview for. Even if you help them make 5 great investments, now you need investment. Would they take the time? No, that respect is not there. And so I wanted to solve a way for the connector to celebrate what they're doing and to act selfishly at the same time that you need to act selflessly. And so I wanted to figure out like, what is the psychology of getting that? Into one action, which if anyone's read my book or listened to anything, it's going to be very clear. It's gratitude. Honor in every language does not have a gray area. There's honor and there's dishonor. There's no, they're sort of honorable. It's just, it's black and white. So when you honor the chain of connection, this is what I ask everyone to do to demonstrate their value. And when you don't honor it, I kick you out of my network if you're in my network.

So what's the chain of connection that— let's spell, spell that one out quickly.

So I'm digging in, right? So if something substantial happens to you from an introduction of mine, from an event, whatever it might be, or from anyone in my network making that introduction, because this is a relationship currency network. If something substantial happens, you have to go back, not just the person who got you that intro. But to the entire chain of people that led up to the point where this thing of substance happened for you. In most cases, it is 3 to 5 people deep and 2 to 5 years in the making. The person that got you to the conference where you met the investor who got you to their friend who became your board chairman. The person who heard what you were doing recommended you to this group, and suddenly you have a TED Talk. Whatever it might be, whatever circumstance, something substantial, not, I made a new friend. We had really good coffee, you know, something that is valuable that you couldn't have gotten on your own. So when you thank everyone in that, if you thank them all separately and collectively, that selfless act of expressing gratitude, I just finished raising for my startup. Thank you for your role in introducing me to two investors. I'm really grateful. Substantial for. No, ask for more. That act, Daniel Ionescu, when somebody does it, does the opposite as well. You get to say what happened egotistically that's substantial for you through gratitude. You get to recognize and show every one of the people, often people of substance or value that believed in you and made an introduction for you. You get to show the collective of the community that came together for you for the thing that you are selflessly expressing gratitude for. When you honor the chain of connection, you're thanking everyone, building community, talking about what's great for you. And everyone wants to know how they can help more and what's next. And all you have to do is to just be specific that you're expressing gratitude only, and that you find value in these people having seen value in you.

And just to clarify on that, you said individually and collectively. So would you send a chain of Thanks to everybody down the chain individually, together, or both?

Depends on the relationship and who the people are, but generally when this happens for me, so for my first round of my startup, I thanked each person who invested. I thanked each person who introduced me to them. Then I actually traced back again, I'm building a tech on this, so I better not be a hypocrite. And I thanked all of the people who were the catalysts, the initial person for starting that ripple effect, for having me meet that investor. It was a fascinating study that showed of getting 18 investors, there were 48 introductions made, and all of those 48 stemmed from 4 people.

Okay.

So when I recognized those catalysts, it was very clear these were the people and one conference I put the most energy into, I had the most respect for, it wasn't rocket science that then I got that, that respect back.

David, you also mentioned that you go to a lot of conferences and people go to conferences to make new connections. But if you're like at the lunch buffet with your plate and trying to scoff or having a coffee, it's very hard to pick who you're gonna talk to, whether they're gonna be the right fit. How do you approach it?

Talk to somebody who doesn't look like you. That's number one.

Mm-hmm.

When you approach people based on homogeneity, you get staleness back. So as a white male at a conference, I don't go talk to another mid-forties white male. I'll talk to the 20-something college-looking kid. I'll talk to the 65-year-old Asian woman. I will literally talk to the person whose energy I feel is different than mine. But looks like they need somebody to talk to.

Mm-hmm.

And then I don't give my pitch. I tell them, you know, I'm a connector. I love, I love learning about other people and helping, you know, would they spend a few minutes and let me learn a little bit about them? And 90% of those conversations prove useful because I started with diversity and then curiosity. And most of the time to get people comfortable, I have to do things at a conference you'd never do, walking around going, my dad's in hospice. My daughter's having, you know, some mental health challenges. I hurt my leg the other day and flying makes it murder. And that's why I'm wearing sneakers with a fancy suit. You'll see it when I speak later, just to be real, to be honest, to be transparent. And it ends up working almost all the time because I feel comfortable in that approach. As somebody who doesn't like to approach strangers, who doesn't like to start up a cold conversation. Who doesn't also like to waste his time with people who are just ego-inflated maniacs talking about themselves? Because that's the person you see at the bar in conversation with two other people with a drink in their hands and smiling that you think is interesting. And they're not. That's the person who's literally going to hit on your friend and make them uncomfortable later in the night, who you wouldn't want to be around. So we shouldn't gravitate to the people that seem like they're the center of attention. Most of those people I've seen are completely waste, complete waste of time.

But is that bravado and that in a way confidence, which could attract people to it, but what you're saying is that it is just a facade. If I'm reading it right.

100%. It is just a facade. People are projecting how they want to be seen. The people you want to talk to are the people who are comfortable with who you are and you're comfortable with how they are. No relationship starts with bravado and stays with bravado unless it's some, like, Hangover movie type of romance. Like, it doesn't exist. We connect with intimacy. We build trust or we don't. Whatever the temperament, introversion, extroversion, whatever the age, whatever the differences, there's one way to connect, which is to feel heard and human. There's no other way to do it. We just pretend all these other layers on it are the right way.

So David, to wrap up our very insightful chat today, and you gave me quite a few thinking themes. If you look back at 26-year-old David, when you, when you started that first role in the nonprofit, what did you underestimate about trust and transactions that you now see clearly?

You know, to say there's one thing is so hard. Cause I underestimated— well, I underestimated Daniel Ionescu, every part of what interaction was, cause I thought I was approaching people to get a donation from them. And then I thought I was trying to find a shared value and ignite their passions. And I failed in all of it because what all philanthropy is, what all investment is, but all of it is besides looking at the numbers of a company somebody is going to acquire, every part of it is simply Do you feel heard by this person? Did they help amplify your passions? And if it's not you, then who do you know that would benefit from meeting them? For me, relationship value sits above time and money. It's the ultimate currency on this planet because it's what we spend all of our time and money for. And I drastically underestimated the value of the relationships I was building, especially with people who didn't become a donor. And the more I built that with curiosity, empathy, and all the rest, I ended up with an insane network of trust because I built trust based on just feeling valid and human with somebody else and they with me. And then they'd say, you should meet my uncle. He's chair of Hasbro. You should meet so-and-so. I built a power network because I wasn't working through the person. I was just building it with the person. I failed at that for a while, but I didn't fail at it for too long because out of necessity, I had to build a different way to connect. And that's what this entire orchestrated world that I've built is. What I believe is the only way, the right way to connect, because I didn't figure out the right way. I just figured out the way that actually works for every human, regardless of circumstance or status.

And that's the main takeaway. From this chat that I think people should, should take. Go for diversity, speak to the people who you wouldn't otherwise speak, different age, gender, skin color, orientation, you name it. That's also a very good conference tip. And I've actually been doing that. So it's good to confirm a few things in, in the background. And I think busy founders can always try to get to the aim and go straight for the things that they want to achieve, because a lot of the time they don't have the time to go through this and invest in this social capital. Everybody who successfully raised, they've always said they've done it months or years in advance in building relationships. And I think that will be my main takeaway from this one. So thank you so much, David, for sharing your experience and your learnings so far. And I'll Make sure that everybody gets a link to your book and your events as well.

Thank you, Daniel. Thank you for, thank you for such an inquisitive and insightful interview.

Thanks for tuning in all the way to the end of this episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with someone you think would get value from it. And don't forget to subscribe on YouTube, Spotify, or Apple Podcasts so you never miss an episode. For the best way to stay in the loop, head to millennialmasters.net. That's where you'll get all the latest features and new episodes straight to your inbox every week. Catch you next week.