35: Unlocking the Gut-Body Connection: The Surprising Links Between Digestion, Immunity & Mental Health

We are digging into all things gut health today and honestly, I learned so many new things myself. So I'm really excited to share this episode with you. We are talking to the CEO and co founder of Just Thrive Probiotics and their lead scientist, Karan Krishnan. The CEO and founder's name is Tina Anderson and she left a legal career to pursue her passion for natural health and wellness after witnessing troubling practices in the pharmaceutical industry. Driven by a desire to promote true wellness, she co created Just Thrive Probiotic and Antioxidant, a groundbreaking spore based supplement rooted in cutting edge science. Through her work, Tina empowers others to take charge of their health by focusing on the gut, the foundation of overall well being. And we are joined also with Karan, who is a brilliant scientist. And you guys, I can promise we'll learn something new. Let's dig in. Welcome to Modern Thyroid and Wellness, the podcast that explores the intricate dance between health, wellness and thyroid, unraveling the threads that weave our vitality together. I'm your host, McCall McPherson, and I'm so thrilled to guide you on this journey to optimal wellness. Okay, so I am incredibly excited to have the team at Just Thrive here today chatting about all things gut health. We know that gut health is so incredibly important for thyroid function, for Hashimoto's influence and protection, and so I'm excited to have you guys here for this conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time.

Thanks so much for having us, McCall. We're so excited to be here.

It's our pleasure.

Yeah. Well, you two are like the dynamic duo I know. Tina, you have a background in like law and you transitioned from that to entrepreneurial ship, which is incredible. And Kiran, I'd love for your kind of story as well. Kind of take us through from both of you guys how you ended up in the sector of gut health and thrive.

Sure. I could start. I, like you said, I was in law and after that spending a lot of too many hours not being home with my kids, I decided to transition into a family pharmaceutical group where I thought I was great. I'm thinking, oh, I'm bringing life saving medications to people, making a difference in the world. But after being in the pharma industry, we really started to see a lot of the abuses in the industry. We saw a lot of the over prescribing of drugs and we saw a lot of the, you know, the emphasis on symptom treatment rather than prevention or maintaining our health. And so my husband and I were in the industry together and through being at the right place at the right time. We were able to license these incredible strains out of London University, these probiotics for strains, and that's where Just Thrive was born. We were introduced to these strains through Karan, and it's been a wonderful partnership we've had for many years.

I love it. Very, very cool. And how did you become interested in gut health, microbiology, all of that? Give us a little bit of your. Your story.

Yeah. So for me, you know, I've. I've been a bit of a science nerd since the day I was born, I would think. I come from two science nerds. My dad was a microelectronics engineer, and my mom is a doctor, a physician. So I feel like I got a little bit of each of the worlds of the. The engineering systems view of things and then also the. The medical science, you know, So I knew I was going into the world of science and medicine in one way or the other. Just wasn't quite sure what I was gonna study yet. The world was my oyster at the beginning. And so freshman year of college, there was a movie playing in the dorms, and it was that movie Outbreak, which is that movie with Morgan Freeman and Dustin Hoffman. For those listening that are below 45, it's an oldie but goodie. You'll probably find it on VHS somewhere. But that became really exciting because they were chasing this virus and trying to find the source and a cure. And that looked really exciting to me from a biological science perspective. Right. Because outside of that, you're thinking about tinkering around in the lab all day long. So that made it look really exciting. So I said, oh, I want to study microbiology and virology. And so that's how I got into the world of microbiology. And that's where my education went. And then you realize that in the world of microbiology, there's really a couple of distinct areas. You can work. You can do the academic track, which I always knew was not for me. I didn't want to stay in academics. And then on the. On the business side of it, there's a lot of industrial microbiology that happens, which is things like fermentations and wastewater treatments and other things. And then there's the medical microbiology, the clinical science of it. And a lot of that focuses on pathogens and how to kill pathogens and, you know, what are the pathologies around diseases caused by pathogens. And although I did a bunch of research work on pathogens, it was less interesting to me because one of the Things I realized early on was that pathogens really made up 1% or less of the total microbes we've discovered. So the question was always, what about the other 99%? What are they doing? They must be doing something. And fortunately, the Human Microbiome Project kicked off in the early 2000s. And that was a great answer for me in terms of where I wanted to put my efforts, because the whole notion around the Human Microbiome Project was to discover the world of microbes and how they enable us or disable us in some way. We weren't sure yet at that time what the answer was going to be, but what are these microbes doing? Because genetics and genetic technology allowed us to start understanding that we have a lot more microbes in us and on us than we previously thought. And then the big question is, do they have any influence on our function, on our health, on our health span and lifespan and so on, beyond what we know to be infectious? Right. So that was like a frontier. You know, you're going into this invisible universe. And that, that suits my level of interest in science quite a bit. So that's, that's how I jumped into the world of microbiome and how far.

We'Ve come in that topic. You know, wow. Just all the landscape you just explained is we started from none of that. And look how far we've come. So it's incredible.

Well, we didn't even know it existed even as little as 20 years ago, which is mind blowing to think. And There are roughly 5,000 or so papers on and around the microbiome published every year. So if you imagine that in the last 10 years, how many papers have been published on it, there's so much active research going on, and it truly is the next frontier of medicine.

Absolutely it is. And I have to tell you, like, my oldest memory being interested in science and medicine was from reading the book the Hot Zone, which is the book from Outbreak. So, again, if you haven't seen it, it's worth checking out. It's fascinating, or at least I. We thought so for sure. Tell me a little bit about the importance of gut health in our ability to be well and in this concept of wellness and longevity.

Yeah, well, our gut health is really dictating every aspect of our overall health. I mean, it's really hard to find any condition out there that's not associated with some type of imbalance in our gut. So for so long, people just associated gut health issues as being gas and diarrhea, constipation, you know, bloating all of those types of things. And, and those are certainly signs that we have some gut imbalance going on. But what we now know is that when you're having anxiety, depression, or any mood disorders, those are associated with our gut health. When we're, you know, when you have any autoimmune issue, that's, that's a sign that you have leakiness of your gut or you have some type of gut issue going on, skin issues, those are a signal that there's something going on with your gut. So it's really hard, like I said, to find any condition out there that's not associated with the. On the health or on health of our gut. So it's really important that it's ground zero when you're talking about health, that we focus on our gut health.

Yeah. And to, to add to what Tina said, you know, I'd love to deconstruct it a little bit for people, Right. So they can wrap their head around the nuances around this topic. Because it's, you know, when, when we talk about gut health being a central player in all of these other disorders, where people's mind. Mind tends to go, is that digestion is central to all of these disorders. Right. And that's true to a certain degree, but then it misses a big part of, of the picture. And so that's the part that I want people to really wrap their head around. So think about it this way. Now we've got about 22,000 functional genes in our chromosomes, and we know that genetics code for all types of functionality in our body. Right. But earthworm has around 30,000 functional genes. So we're less sophisticated than an earthworm is in terms of our genetic capability. But we are clearly phenotypically, we could see that we are way more sophisticated than an earthworm is. So then what is bridging that gap between genetic information and function? Well, as it turns out, the microbiome bridges that gap, Right. We have over two and a half million microbial genes in our system. So a lot of our functionality is afforded to us by the microbes that exist in our system. They conduct so many critical functions for us that are required to be human and function as a human. Right. So then there's another perspective on what a human is. And that perspective is that we are truly a holobiot, which is a superorganism. We are walking, talking rainforest, if you will. Right. So we are a complex ecosystem made up of thousands of different species that have to work together in concert to function the way we've evolved to function. So think about it. We have 150 times more microbial DNA than human DNA, right? We have 10 to 100 times more microbial function in our system than human function. And it goes well beyond the digestion. Now, the reason why the gut is so important beyond digestion, and digestion is very important. We'll just touch on that for a moment. But why it goes beyond that is when we talk about the 150 times more microbial DNA in our system, a huge portion of that 60, 70% of that portion is housed in the gut, right? So the gut becomes the resource for how the rest of the system functions, right? Our mitochondria are affected by what happens in the gut. Our brains are affected by what happens in the gut, as Tina mentioned, right? And she put it to anxiety, depression, which are then the phenotypic changes that occur, but the nuance. So the production, for example, of tryptophan, which is a precursor of serotonin and melatonin, the tryptophan is produced largely in the gut. And then the gut microbes, depending on how it's functioning with the immune system, dictate whether tryptophan becomes serotonin and melatonin, or tryptophan becomes something called quinolinic acid, which is neurotoxic, right? So you could have a gut that. Just to take the anxiety depression piece for a second, right? Just to illustrate for people the impact the gut can have if you have a healthy, balanced, functional microbiome, right? What your microbiome is doing is it's producing upwards of 90% of your serotonin in your gut, right? It's producing most of the tryptophan that your brain needs in order to produce serotonin and the other happy hormones. And then dopamine, which also keeps you motivated and pleased and enjoying things and so on. All of those are produced in the gut at the same time. The signals through the immune system tells the brain and the central nervous system to turn that tryptophan into melatonin, serotonin and produce dopamine and so on, right? So that's a happy, functional gut. And your gut is not leaky. You don't have inflammation and so on. But let's say your gut is dysfunctional and leaky. Then it becomes a triple or quadruple threat because, number one, you're not producing enough tryptophan to begin with, right? So you don't even have the precursor to make serotonin, melatonin. And so on number two, you're not producing enough serotonin in the gut, right? So you don't even have the benefit of the gut derived serotonin. You're not producing enough dopamine, so you keep stoking doing behaviors to try to stoke dopamine, like addictive behaviors, right? Substance abuse and so on. Your gut is likely leaky, which means that endotoxins leak through and those endotoxins interfere with serotonin and dopamine binding in the brain. So not only are you not making enough serotonin and dopamine, what you are making, you're having a hard time binding it because these endotoxins from a dysfunctional gut are inhibiting it. And then finally, the inflammation that you get from a leaky gut, right, Chips the system and causes the tryptophan to become quinolinic acid, which is neurotoxic rather than serotonin and melatonin, right? So you could see then just taking something like anxiety and depression and brain function, how a singular issue, which is gut dysbiosis, can attack the brain in three or four different manners to drive someone into the down the road of anxiety, depression, suicidal ideation, dementia, all of those things, right? So hopefully that helps address for people and provides them an understanding how dynamically important the gut is for your overall health. Right. And one thing wrong with the gut can really trip up the system in multiple ways.

Totally. And then, you know, so my people are thyroid people, right? They're tired, a lot of them are depressed. And it's so fascinating too, the bi directional nature of like, look, if you take care of yourself and you exercise and you eat well, you can influence your microbiome in a positive way. But on the other hand, if you don't, it's just can turn into this cycle where it promotes the replication of bad, you know, microbes. And it just keeps going. The inflammation, the depression, it just can easily, easily spiral. Yeah, it's, it's fascinating.

Well, in the world, in the world of thyroid, so we just think about two simple things, right? Number one, the activation of the, of thyroid hormone, T4, right? That's dependent on the gut. So if your gut is dysfunctional, you're not activating thyroid hormone, right? So so now you're not getting functional hormone out of your thyroid. Then on top of that, that same dysfunctional gut, which increases chronic low grade inflammation, that chronic low grade inflammation increases the risk of developing autoimmune responses against your own thyroid, right? So then again, it's a Double whammy, right? So that's. So what, what people really need to wrap their head around is that when your gut is dysfunctional, there's often a multitude of processes that go wrong that, that drive you towards a disease state. And that's one of the reasons why the gu so important is because it is so interconnected with the multitude of lines into proper function.

Yeah.

And just to add salt to the.

Wound, I mean, we have so many offenders out there with gut health. You know, we have antibiotics that we take, that we consume, but then also antibiotics that are found in our food supply. We have glyphosate, the active ingredient roundup that sprayed all of our produce in our food and our backyards that are wreaking havoc on our gut stress is a huge offender to our gut health. I. I mean, all the household cleaning products that are out there with, you know, all kinds of offenders in there that are just wreaking havoc on our gut on a daily basis. So it's just, it's this constant battle that we're dealing with. And why you see this uprise and autoimmune issues and allergies with people and with kids, for that matter.

That was. Yeah, that was absolutely my next question. Like, what are these things that are contributing to poor gut health? And that's. They're. They're everywhere. If we're not really intentional, passively, our gut health can really break down unless we. We take steps outwardly to fix it and manage it.

Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, to add more to everything that Tina listed and all those things are, you know, agents that we use in many different capacities that, that were never tested against the human microbiome in terms of what their level of impact is right now. I think, you know, hopefully the scientific world catches up to a point where it's like, before we release anything that humans end up using, whether it's in us, around us, on us, we have to test against what its impact is on the microbiome. And when you look retrospectively at many of these chemicals and all that, they're quite devastating to the microbiome. So there's a massive impact there. Another area of issue is our poor ability of feeding the microbiome. So microbes require fiber, they require resistant starches, they require polyphenols. That's a big part of what created the diversity in our microbiome to begin with. And we're not getting enough of that. I mean, Americans generally don't get anywhere close to the enough amount of fiber and polyphenols Right. And resistant starches into their diets, especially given the massive consumption of ultra processed foods. And so you've got, you know, these drivers that kill microbes. All, all the ones that Tina listed and the list goes on and on. On top of that, we're not feeding the microbes adequately, so it's a double whammy. And then we're also not getting exposure to the outside environment. There's a very natural process of osmosis with the natural environment where we shed a lot of microbes and we can pick up microbes from the outside environment as well. Right. So we're no longer in the dirt, we're no longer spending a good amount of our time in natural environments. We're mostly in concrete and sterile jungles, in homes and cars and offices and so on. So we're not getting the adequate exposure on top of it.

That is so true. Absolutely. And we've been trained from like the 80s and 90s to be terrified of bacteria. You know, everything is meant to kill bacteria, to kill viruses. And not only is that external, but we often transmit those same processes internally, which can again be devastating.

Yeah.

Tell me a little bit about probiotics role in gut function, the gut microbiome. Tell me a little bit about conventional and then spore based and the differences between those. I think this is a massive opportunity for consumers, for regular people to learn and harness yalls knowledge to go deeper and be able to delineate what's of value and what really isn't.

Yeah. So a probiotic, just the definition is a live microorganism. When administered in adequate amounts, it confers a benefit onto the host, which is the body. So most probiotics on the market unfortunately don't even meet the first part of that definition because it's a live microorganism. And we have to remember it doesn't need to be alive in the refrigerator at the grocery store. It needs to be alive by the time it makes the journey to the intestines. So most probiotics, even if they were alive in the refrigerator at the grocery store and then you brought them home and you kept them alive and then you swallowed them. First of all, they can't even withstand the room temperature of the store shelf. So very unlikely they would ever survive your body temperature, which is 98.6 with the spores, they actually have the ability to survive that body temperature of 98.6. And the stomach acid. So in the stomach it's meant to be the gastric barrier, very acidic. The overwhelming majority of Probiotics are actually killed by that stomach acid and by the time they get to the intestines, they're actually dead bacteria. So the spores have this endospore shell around itself. And it's not that we've engineered them to have this shell. This is the way these strains were found in nature, to have this endospore shell around itself. This shell allows you to swallow it and not be affected by the body temperature of 98.6. It actually has the ability to stay in its spore form in the stomach, so it's not bothered by the stomach acid. And when it hits the intestines, that's when it takes its spore shell off and goes into its live vegetative cell state. So it's actually there, the spores actually get to the intestines and then they read the microbial environment. And that's what's so cool about the spores is they actually are going to do something different in your gut than they're going to do in my gut. They actually breathe the microbial environment and have the ability to help get rid of that overgrowth of the pathogenic bacteria and help bring our own beneficial bacteria and some of those keystone strains back to life. So it's a very, very, a different, different approach to probiotics on the market. We were disruptors when we brought it to the market 12 years ago and we just have seen incredible results with the product because it actually you're delivering live bacteria. And like I said, most probate, conventional probiotics just don't meet the first part of that definition and then don't stay there. And our strains stay there for about 21 to 28 days.

Wow.

Incredible.

And just to add to what Tina said, you know, to give a little bit of a historical significance to the strategy around spores, when we first started looking at what do we want a probiotic to do, number one and number two, you know, where in nature do we typically encounter microbes, Right? Because when you, when you consider the, the modern day probiotics, certainly even at that time when, when we were formulating just thrive and, and, and developing the product, when you look at the typical probiotic, they were a hodgepodge of lacto bifidal strains, you know, anywhere from five to 50 strains in the product. And the doses were all over the place, right? They were 10 billion, 50 billion, 100 billion. And they just kept scaling it up. And one of my first questions is always like, is that natural? Is that a natural way to encounter those organisms? Right. Because if it's not then, I think you have to be a little bit cautious about what the outcomes may be because none of them are testing any of this stuff. Most of the probiotics on the market don't have any clinical studies or any studies at all to understand what this hodgepodge mixture they made has, what impact it has on the gut microbiome, the immune system, and then thereby the host. And so when we were thinking about what is the most natural way to encounter microbes as dictated by nature, it's clear that once you're born and in utero, you're getting a lot of exposure to mom's microbes, right? And then when you pass through the vaginal canal, you're getting a certain type of mom's gut bacteria that start to predominate the vaginal canal towards the end of pregnancy. And then you're also getting exposed to fecal bacteria, which in that case will be a largely facultative microbes. And then bifidobacteria as well. And then of course, breast milk. Right? And skin to skin contact. Breast milk contains over 600 different species of microbes. Skin to skin contact with mom, dad, all the kissing, snuggling, all that becomes a very natural way of engaging and exposing with microbes. But beyond that short period right after birth, it's the environment, right? The environment exposes us significantly to certain types of microbes. Now, a lot of the microbes in the environment aren't necessarily going to function as a probiotic because they're going to die in the stomach, they're going to die through the bile salts and so on, or they might just pass right through. So we honed in on what types of microbes in the environment, not only do we naturally get exposed to, or we should naturally be exposed to, exposed to, but also have the capability of surviving through the gastric system. So it meets that first part of the definition and then has been shown to do something positive in the gut. And that's where the bacillus endospores came from. Right? Because in the natural environment they're fairly ubiquitous because of the spore that Tina was talking about. They do survive naturally, the gastric system. So then we know they are alive and they meet that first definition. Then the second part is, is there a dose dependent effect on the host? Right. What is it doing in the system? And that's where you require clinical trials, right? Starting with animal models and in vitro models to understand what they do with the rest of the commensal bacteria in gut models. And so on and then you want to look at do they have pathogenic capability, do they have a hidden gene or a hidden toxin gene in there somewhere that they may express under certain conditions. So you have to do full DNA sequencing of all of these, all of their genetics, and then look at all the proteins that they make and try to understand the potential risks that may be involved. Once you say, okay, there's no risk, they're perfectly safe organisms, then you want to look at their positive impact, what they do on the microbiome, the immune system and then the host. And so what we've really done is done all of those steps and then we've created a probiotic that largely mimics what you're supposed to get exposed to in nature, but no longer do because we don't live off the land the way we used to. Right. For the vast majority of human evolution. So really what we're doing, and I like to think about it this way, is we're just smart enough to understand what nature has already afforded us and then isolate that and utilize it. Right. Rather than trying to recreate some crazy hodgepodge and wrap it in very special capsules to try to get it to survive and then just going with the mentality that more is better. So you need 50 billion, 100 billion 25 strains, you know, and oh, all that stuff is dying, so let's put it in the refrigerator, you know, like none of that really matters or does anything. And many of them can actually be, have a negative effect on, on your outcomes. They can actually be quite inflammatory to the immune system and, and hence why a lot of people don't tolerate many conventional probiotics. Right. So, so we've got the evolutionary significance and then we've got the advantage of the natural capabilities of the spores. And then we've shown all of that through clinical trials and other ways of testing it, that it has a genuine benefit on your microbiome and your health outcomes. Right. So to me, that's the process in which a probiotic manufacturer should proceed.

Absolutely, absolutely. And it's interesting. It's like this idea of going to the grocery store and picking out a probiotic in the refrigerated section and than taking it like if it can not survive at room temperature, as if it could survive in our temperature at 90.6 degrees. It's just, it's not really going to happen. It's counterintuitive, of course.

Right.

One follow up question, Tina, the way that you described the mechanism was almost like it will pass through our upper GI tract before getting released in the lower GI tract. Does that. That, if I'm interpreting that correctly, does that mean for people who maybe have SIBO or, you know, an upper GI issue like that, is it a safer mechanism of a probiotic because there's less of a chance that it would be released in the upper GI tract? Or did I misinterpret that at all?

No, you, you were right. It's just that basically these are great to take when you have SIBO because of the fact that they are only handling, like the pathogenic bacteria. They're getting rid of the pathogenic. They're not contributing to that overgrowth in the small intestinal. It's reading that microbial environment. So it would never contribute to it because these are very intelligent bacteria.

How fascinating.

Yeah. So in the case of sibo, what tends to happen is you're, you're getting an overgrowth, but it's not an overgrowth of microbes that are native to the small bowel. Right. So the small bowel is what we call gram positive dominant. So gram positive bacteria are going to be microbes that have a cell wal structure. There's less of a chance that they are pathogenic. There's fewer gram positive pathogens than there are gram negative. So gram negative means they don't have the cell wall, and instead they have something called lipopolysaccharide or an endotoxin built into their cell membrane. Right. So they have a membrane but no wall, and then gram positive have a wall and no endotoxin. Right. So in the small bowel, you're supposed to have a fairly low level of microbes, somewhere around 10 to the 4 CFUs per gram, which is about a thousand thousand cells per gram. Now, you compare that to the large bowel, where it's more like 100 billion per gram. Right. So you're going from a thousand to 100 billion. Right. The concentration of microbes is incomparable because it's so, so different. And so the small bowel is designed to have a low number of microbes, and they're largely gram positive microbes. That's a happy small bowel. Now, how do you maintain a low level of microbes? Right. Given that it's a great place for bacteria to grow. Right. It's warm, it's moist, there's constant food coming in, so there's plenty of things to metabolize and grow and ferment and so on. Well, the reason why you can maintain naturally a low level is part of it is a hydrochloric acid. So the hydrochloric acid from your stomach does bleed into the upper part of the small intestine, kind of sterilizing the area. Number two is bile. Bile is a very strong antimicrobial, and it controls the growth of those gram positive bacteria. So every time you eat food, in the presence of food, bacteria want to grow, right? Because they're like, hey, we can ferment this and break this down. But when you're eating food, your gallbladder is also releasing bile. And so you keep recycling the same bile acid pool almost 15 times with every meal. So it coats the entire small intestine with bile so the bacteria can't grow. On top of that, the bile also activates these receptors at the terminal end of the small intestine that cause the small intestinal cells to release antimicrobial peptides during the process of digestion. So that's a second layer of protection to not allow bacteria to grow. Right. So this is how we maintain such a low level of bacteria in that space. Now, when you go into the large bowel, those mechanisms aren't in play anymore. And we want there to be really high levels of microbes. We want a lot of fermentation to happen so all of these natural mechanisms no longer function in the large bowel. What's typically going on with SIBO is people start to get a reduction in hydrochloric acid, right? And you start to get a reduction in bile acid production because of liver stress, liver damage, and or gallbladder damage as well. You start to get a significant exposure to gram negative bacteria. And a lot of those gram negative bacteria actually come from your mouth, right? Our mouth is coated and loaded with gram negative enteric bacteria. This is gross to think, but it's called a fecal oral rotation out. So a lot of fecal gram negative bacteria we're getting in our mouth through exposure to lots of things, food and beverages and surfaces and all that. We touch things, doorknobs and whatnot. And then we're always touching our faces and so on. So we're getting people's fecal bacteria into our system. And then those fecal bacteria, if your stomach acid isn't low enough, will survive through the stomach acid. And you swallow roughly 40 or 50 billion microbes a day from your mouth, right? So if you've got E. Coli and enterococcus and all in your mouth, you're swallowing it and inocul your small bowel if your stomach acid is not adequate, because the stomach acid is the One that's supposed to kill those bacteria. So they're getting in and then your liver starts to get too stressed, so you're not producing enough bile to try to control the overgrowth. And that allows those gram negatives to proliferate. And then they start fermenting food. When it comes in, that gives you the bloat, all of that, it causes the gut to become leaky. At that point, lots of those endotoxins leak through from the gram negative, hurts the liver even more, bile acid pool shrinks even more, gives them even more chance to regrow. So I explain all of that because what's important to note about sibo, because people do get very nervous about probiotics and sibo. Rightfully right, because most probiotics I wouldn't use with sibo. But the spores do something very, very different. Number one, they have the ability to target and reduce the growth of the gram negative bacteria even in the small bowel. Number two, they seal up leaky gut because leaky gut drives a progression of sibo quite significantly. Number three, they are hepatoprotective. We've published studies showing that the, that the spores actually protect the liver against toxicity. And in sibo, the liver is undergoing a significant amount of toxicity. Right. Fatty liver and non alcoholic steatohepatitis, which are the two distinct levels of liver dysfunction. Right. Are synonymous with sibo. If you have sibo. Yeah. If you have sibo, you have almost four times. You have a four times higher likelihood of having liver cirrhosis than if you don't have sibo and vice versa. If you have liver cirrhosis, you're four times more likely to have sibo. Right. So they go hand in hand. And then there's another type of sibo called PPI induced sibo. Right? So those are the proton pump inhibitors, the prilosex and the antacids and all that people have been using for years. And that's because if you reduce stomach acid, more of these oral bacteria are going to make it through and inoculate your gut. So stomach acid issue, bile acid issue, inoculation by gram negative bacteria, leaky gut and then leaky gut makes everything worse. Right? Leaky gut can actually increase the growth of gram negative bacteria in your mouth. Right? So the endotoxins that look leak through from your gut will make its way through circulation, end up in the gingival tissue in your gums, increase inflammation to the point where it increases growth of gram negative bacteria and biofilms in the mouth. Right. So leaky Gut can cause periodontal disease. Crazy to think about, right? But, but so leaky gut perpetuates everything. And these spores, the just thrive product, stops that leaky gut and competes against the gram negatives and can protect the liver. And then if you add that to things that enhance bile flow, like say tudka, you know, or use hcl, supplemental hcl, like betaine, hcl, you can really make significant progress with sibo.

And I have to say too, like, people with thyroid dysfunction are a much higher risk for SIBO as well. I think it's upwards of 60%. An increase of 60 risk because we don't make enough stomach acid. Like hypothyroidism directly impacts our ability to create stomach acid. So very, very pertinent information for, for my people. Back up a little bit and talk to me a little more about the basics of leaky gut. Like how does that happen, what is happening? And then you've touched on some of the sequela that can show up as a manifestation of it. But kind of take us a little bit back to the beginning maybe for people who aren't really familiar with the concept.

Yeah, well, I think of like our intestinal lining as like a coffee filter, you know, and it's like you just, you, you, you don't want the grinds in your coffee cup. And that's what happens when you have a leaky gut. You basically have these toxins that are not really that problematic in our gut that seep into our bloodstream. And it's, you have this like, once those holes start getting into the leakiness is starting to happen in our gut lining. We start this chronic inflammation. Every time these LPS toxins seep into our bloodstream, we have this chronic low grade inflammation. So I always like to describe it as like a leaky faucet. You know, you have this leakiness of the faucet and it's not problematic. For years people are dealing with this, and then one day that tub overflows or one day you all of a sudden have a autoimmune issue that you didn't have. You didn't have anything. All of a sudden, one day you had allergies and you didn't have any type of allergy before and you really did have a problem before you had that leakiness of the gut. And the, and Karan could expand on the study that was done with the spores, but they took 100 college students. University of North Texas took 100 college students and they tested to see if they had leaky gut These are healthy college students. They had no other diet, no other, you know, issues, or they weren't on any medication or anything like that. And 55% of them had a leaky gut and didn't even realize it. So. And you know, they estimate that the adult population, probably 80% of them have a, have a leaky gut and they don't know it, but it's just, it's these toxins that are going into our bloodstream that is just wreaking havoc and really the cause of pretty much all non communicable diseases out there.

Yeah. To add some color to the structural elements that are occurring in that lining. Right. And why microbes are so important. As Tina said, the gut lining is supposed to filter things out and there are structural elements in place to help assist that. So if you think about the small intestine, for example, you've got this mucus layer, right? The mucus layer then sits on top of the intestinal cells, right? So you've got the intestinal cells, we refer to them intestinal epithelial cells. And that's the final barrier before something is effectively entering into your body, right? So then it's going into, you know, circulation, is going to the liver and then into systemic circulation from that point. So for food particles, whatever else you swallow or get exposed to, it has to go through the structural elements, this filter like element. And there are checkpoints in different areas to adequately address what may be coming through, Right. Because we want, want nutrients to come through, right? We. And that's a selective permeable component of your gut. Your gut is not like a wall where, like, which is very much like your skin. Your skin is not really supposed to allow anything to go through. Very few elements actually make their way through in the skin. And that's why there's multiple layers within your skin, right? You've got the epidermis, the dermis, even the epidermis itself has like 12 or 13 layers of cells in your gut, lining you of one layer of cells, right? So just a single layer of cells called intestinal epithelial cells, they're kind of sitting shoulder to shoulder, right? So imagine a bunch of soldiers sitting shoulder to shoulder, forming a wall. On top of those cells there's that mucus layer which, which is like what you would think mucus is. And it slows down the progression of things that are trying to enter past that wall of cells. Now in between the cells are this space called tight junctions. Those spaces can open up and let things through, or there's all these proteins that lace them up and it cinches them closed, right? So that's a dynamic portion of the barrier. It opens up for things to go through, and then it closes up when things shouldn't be going through. So that's tight junctions and then through the cell, that's the transcellular pathway. Minerals and certain small molecules can just go right through the cell from one end to the other and pop out the other end into circulation. Right? So, so we've got the paracellular pathway going between and then the transcellular pathway going through the cells. That's how things finally enter in. But that's all dictated by receptors on the outside of the cell and then the tight junction proteins in between the cell. And then everything is protected by that mucus layer sitting on top, right? So that mucus layer, imagine food particles and environmental toxins. All these things coming through get slowed down by passage through the mucus, and mucus slows it down because it's quite viscous. Right? Think about a thick gel like structure and that gives enough time for the microbiome and the immune system to examine what's coming through and then deal with it properly. Right? Whether it's something bad and has to be neutralized and they coat it with antibodies or break it down and then sending it out through defecation, or if it's something perfectly good, then it's allowed to go through and make its way to the cell. And then the cell decides, does it go through the cell or in between the cells? Right. So there are all these checkpoints in place. All of those structural elements are designed by and produced by the microbes in the microbiome. Right. There are microbes that upregulate the tight junction proteins. When those break down, there are microbes that upregulate all the receptors that are sitting on top of the intestinal epithelial cells. And then it's the microbes that make the mucus that make up the mucosa layer. Right? So when you have all of these beneficial microbes that, that produce and manage and maintain all of the structural elements that gives the intestinal lining its selective permeable status. Now, when those microbes get damaged as a result of poor habits, bad diet, antimicrobials, antibiotics and so on, now you've lost the ability to reproduce the mucus layer, you've lost the ability to make those tight junction proteins, genes, so then the cells remain open, you've lost the ability to manage the receptors on the outside of the cell. So now more things can pass through without being regulated. So you lose all the regulatory mechanisms. And now things like the toxins Tina was talking about that are generated on the luminal side of the intestine can just pass through indiscriminately without being checked. Right. So that becomes a leaky gut. And the clinical manifestation of leaky gut is a high level of toxins. No toxins in particular. And they're called endo because they're actually toxins that are produced in the body. So they're as opposed to an exotoxin which comes in from outside. So you can't get away from it. It's constantly being produced. Your gut is just designed to sequester it and metabolize it and send it out. But when your gut is leaky, it indiscriminately leaks through. And when it leaks through, it wreaks havoc in the body, causes all kinds of inflammatory pathways. Earlier I talked about how those toxins can interfere with serotonin dopamine binding. It messes up mitochondria, it does all kinds of things. But that's what's happening in leaky gut. And the thing is, you could have about 3 inches of your gut being leaky, or you can have three feet of your gut being leaky and that dictates how impactful it is. And it's a progressive issue. Right. If you started out with just a few inches of your gut being leaky, we don't, you don't do specific things to repair that. That's going to go from 3 inches to 6 inches to 9 before you know it. 20ft of your gut is leaky and you're in real dire straits at that point.

I learned so many things by that last three minutes, like even myself. That was fascinating. I had no idea that microbes are what secrete the mucosal kind of barrier to protect us and regulated those junctions. Fascinating. Can you guys share with me a little bit how spore based probiotics impact specifically leaky gut and gut integrity?

Yeah, well, it's basically what Karan had mentioned is that it's our gut microbes that are dictating whether or not our tight junctions are going to stay together and keep us keep our intestinal lining strong. And by having spores and an effective probiotic, you're actually, actually able to get rid of that pathogenic bacteria or the overgrowth of the pathogenic bacteria. We don't completely get rid of it, but it's also able to grow our keystone strains and our good and our good beneficial bacteria. So it's about when we're taking care of our gut microbes and fostering them and the ecosystem that they're living in, we're also supporting the gut lining.

Yeah. And there's a few mechanisms in play too. Right. So when we first started working with spores, we had already hypothesized that they would have a huge impact on human. Leaky gut studies hadn't been done yet at that point. There were studies on animals and leaky gut done already. And through those mechanistic studies, what they showed that the spores can do beyond competing against the negative microbes that break down the systems. So that's another thing I should mention. Not only are those systems, the production management of those systems, the responsibility of certain commensal bacteria. If those bacteria are low, you're not getting all of that benefit. On top of that, when those bacteria are low, you tend to have an overgrowth of bacteria that actually break down that system even more. Right. So you've got microbes that then will eat away at the mucus layer, let alone not produce it, eating away at it faster. You've got microbes that will produce inflammatory cytokines and that break up the tight junctions that kill off the intestinal epithelial cells. Right. So you've got microbes that will facilitate a breakdown of the system, not only not produce that system. Right. And that's a spectrum that we will tend to have within a microbiome, and then that kind of decides how dysbiotic you are. Right. So are you just at the end where you have a low level of those important microbes that manage the system, which means your system is not managed well, or are you all the way on the other end where not only do you not have the team, but you've got the team that also actively breaks everything down? Right. That is a much more serious situation. And so that's a spectrum of where people tend to be with their microbiome and leaky gut. The spores come in and they compete against the microbes that break down the system, Right? So they can reduce their numbers effectively, and as a result, they can bump up the numbers of the keystone and other species that repair and manage the system. We've seen that and published that in studies. On top of that, the spores increase the expression of those tight junction proteins, Right. So they can actually cause the intestinal epithelial cells to turn on certain epigenetic responders that increase the production of the tight junction proteins. So you can lace up the cells and cinch them back up. Together, the spores also increase the production of the fuel that's required to make the mucus, that is butyl butyrate. Butyrate is one of the most important fuels of rebuilding that mucus. This is one of the reasons why butyrate is so important for the gut and gut health in general, because it's the fuel that goblet cells utilize to produce the actual mucous lining. And then on top of that, the spores can also reduce inflammatory responses within the lining of the gut. And inflammatory responses constantly damage intestinal cells and the tight junctions. Right. So they do a number of things that lead to a complete alleviation of leaky gut. In the study we published that Tina referred to with the college students, we saw in 30 days almost a 70% reduction in leaky gut with doing nothing else but just taking the spores once a day. They weren't alleviating the bad habits of being college students, drinking, being stressed, eating fast food and all that. Despite all of that, they still saw over a 70% reduction in leaky gut. And then all of the inflammatory cytokines that go along with with increase in leaky gut, all of those came down very significantly as well, just from taking the spores.

That was my next question. Like, what in, in studies have you all found on timeline? And that is incredibly impressive because I always feel like, and I know it's not healed right, it's always a work in progress, but I'm like, listen, when we're working on your gut, it is slow and painful. You just have to commit to it and it takes time. It's really encouraging that people can see improvement in as little as 30 days. That's amazing.

Yeah, very measurable improvement. I mean, we looked at so many biomarkers and we looked at, I think 40, 45 different biomarkers, if you include all the immunological markers as well. We saw across the board improvements with gut brain function, with metabolic function, with inflammatory response, so on and so forth. So we saw a significant amount of benefit throughout all kinds of biomarkers. We looked at almost 40 different biomarkers, including immunological mark. And at the end of the day, what we saw was a huge shift in the trajectory of their health. Right. In that 30 day period. Now, what you can do in 30 days is make that significant shift to put your gut back on the right track. You cannot build resilience just for yet. Right? So what you're talking about in terms of what takes longer is that building of resilience. That's critically important because what you want to do be able to do is you want to be able to live and function and not have to make 100% the right decisions all the time or your gut falls apart. Right. The example I always give is you don't want to have to accidentally eat a crouton and then you're suffering for the next four days. Right. So you want to build resilience. So this puts you in the right direction. And then when you incorporate other good habits like stress management, adequate sleep, resistance training, you know, getting outside, increasing fiber polyphenols in your diet resistant starch, as you start to do all those things in addition to the spores, it really builds a resilience.

Yeah, that was my next question. Like what can people do right. On a day to day basis in addition to taking just thrive. My one question to follow up question to that would be what is the strangest, most random thing that you will have found in research or your own research or literature that influences gut microbiome. Microbiome in a positive way that people wouldn't ever expect or believe? I know that's the most random question. So I'm sorry if I'm throwing you throwing a hardball.

Yeah, I love that question. And so one of the ones that I think is really, really underappreciated that is very impactful to gut health is resistance training. And most people don't understand that. Right. And the reason for it is probably different than you think. Now you could think that, okay, resistance training improves your metabolic health and reduces stress and thereby. Right. It's good for your gut in that way. That is one mechanism. But as it turns out, when you, when you lift weights and you contract your muscles against resistance, your muscles release a whole set of chemicals called myokines. And there are certain types of myokines that actually play an active role in sealing up the lining of your gut and changing the composition of your gut microbiome. Right? So they act as prebiotics and probiotics for your microbiome, which is really surprising. Right. You, you wouldn't necessarily think that, that those systems are connected. And then if you think about things from an evolutionary perspective, and I always try to make some evolutionary sense of things that are good for us, right? So, so I can kind of understand why they would be good for us. It makes sense in that, you know, people back in the day who put in work, right, Lifting things and building things and carrying food and water to their villages, and if you just think about all the, the activities involved in lifting things and resisting against a force. Those were all beneficial for the individual and the community that they were supporting, right? And as a result there is a increase in beneficial microbes that increase the altruism within the community. For example, one of the types of bacteria that can increase as a result of resistance training is Lactobacillus remnants. And Lactobacillus rhamnosus is, is and reuteri as well, especially reuteri. Actually Lactobacillus reuteri increases oxytocin and that is the love and binding hormone, right? So, so just imagine this. Humans as a species had to survive in, in clusters, right? We had to survive as tribes. We not one individual human by themselves is not very effective at surviving. We do really well in, in tribes. And so in order for a tribe to function properly, you have to care about the outcome of the other individuals within the tribe. You can't be selfish, you can't be like looking out for myself. Screw them, they don't need food, right? That's not going to survive. And the hormone that dictates a lot of that is oxytocin, right? That's the binding hormone. And then rooteri is one of the microbes that dramatically increases oxytocin and, and rooterai is one of those microbes that increase when you do resistance work and you do hard things, right? So doing hard things increases bonding hormone which causes you to create more empathy for the others around you, which gives you then motivation to do the hard things for the other people and for your community, right? So it's a wonderful thing. And the problem is in the western world, Ruder eye is nearly wiped out of our gut. When you look at the guts of hunter gatherer tribes that still exist today, like the Papua New guinea tribes or even the Hadza tribe in Tanzania, they tend to have very high levels of, and they tend to have very high level of bonding with their tribes maids and mates and so on. Humans in the western world can be quite isolation this, right? And we have a lot of separation and we treat each other like shit really. At the end of the day if you just think about, about road raging and all these things that people do and, and then how terrible people can be online, right? When, when you have a little bit of anonymity, all of that is a, is an issue of lack of root and, and we're, we're just not forming the same kind of, you know, cultural and tribal bonds that, that we used to as, as a species. And you know that, that effect to me is super interesting. Right, right. Resistance training tutorial. Right. To oxytocin. That connection is really fascinating. And that's kind of falling apart in modern society.

It's so, so interesting. We're evolving and devolving simultaneously. And a lot of it has to do with our gut microbiome. Like, it can be related to everything. It's just fascinating stuff. Well, this conversation was so enlightening, even for me. Like, I learned so many new things today. I appreciate the time and the work that you all have putting, put in to. To gathering and collecting and cultivating this information for us because it's incredibly valuable. I have just a couple more questions. One is, who would be a great candidate for thrive? Like, is it people who are really struggling with their gut? Is it people who want to do maintenance? Tell me what that looks like.

It's hard for me to think of anybody that would not be a candidate for just thrive just because we know that the world we're living in is so offensive to our guys. Gut health. We've seen this with our children, our children who are just now dealing with allergies and autoimmune issues at record levels, epidemic levels. And so I'm very passionate, obviously, as a mom of three, I'm very passionate about children's guts being taken care of. Yeah. It's hard for me to imagine anybody that's not a candidate for the product. Of course, if people have some gut issues, they're going to say, okay, you know, yeah, I need a probiotic. But it's. Again, we know that the gut is dictating virtually every aspect of our overall health. So it's hard for me to think of anybody that shouldn't be a product.

Yeah. And I would put it. I want people to think of it in this way on top of what Tina said. Okay. So keep in mind that our ancestors. Right. Went through really arduous lives and existences to cultivate the ecosystem that we enjoy today. Right. That gives us all of the benefit, all of the functionality that we enjoy being at the top of the food chain, at the top of the evolutionary ladder. Humans went through a lot of difficulty gathering this ecosystem of microbes. We have in the animal kingdom some of the most diverse microbial systems in our body than any other or animals out there. That is part of what affords us our ability to live almost anywhere on this planet. If you took a polar bear and put them in the savannah, that polar bear wouldn't survive. If you take a lion and put them in the North Pole, it's not going to survive. They are not adapting beyond their individual ecosystems because of the low diversity of their microbiomes. We have this immense capability because of our microbiomes, and we are all stewards of that for future generations. Right. So beyond your own health, it's really the existence of the species. Right. It's our job to preserve as much of the microbes that we've been given and foster them and pass it on to future generations. And I would put it this way, this way, the thing that keeps me up at night is the, this extinction of the human microbiome. And it's happening at a crazy rapid pace. Right. So I've done over, you know, 10 or 15,000 microbiome tests on individuals in North America. And if you look at the average American, the number of functional species that we have in our guts is around 130 species. You compare that to people who are living more like our ancestors did just a few hundred years, if not a few thousand years ago. They tend to have about four to 500 active species. Right. So we've already lost about a third of the microbes that have been passed down to us from generation after generation, and we are squandering it further and further with every generation. So one way to think about it is that if we don't pass on an adequate microbiome, it's like our kids and their kids are going to be born without an ordinary organ that's functioning. Right. Imagine if someone told you what you're doing today means your grandkids are going to be born without a spleen. You'd go, holy cow, what? Okay, so I've got to do what? Eat fiber? Okay. You know, it's really quite simple to harbor and take care of this ecosystem. And the spores play such an important role in day to day management of the microbiome. And then you add in the other things like, like diversifying your diet, managing stress, doing some lifting, you know, getting more exposure to other humans, to outside environments, doing these simple things to protect and harbor this ecosystem for the future of our species.

So important, incredibly important. Well, just Thrive has generously offered our listeners 20% off with the code McCall. So if you are on your gut journey or just on a journey journey of wanting to be your healthiest self and invest in future generations and humanity, Thrive is a great way to do that. So you can find them@justthrivehealth.com and then share it with our listeners to y' all social so they can find you there as well. Sounds great.

Thanks so much for having us. McCall.

This was incredible. So I'm so grateful that you guys came on. It was absolutely informative to the 10th degree.

Yeah. And they can read more or listen more to what I put out in terms of social media education at Kieran Biome. So it's K I R A N B I O M E And then of course just Thrive Health has what, what's the, the handle there, Tina? Is it at just Thrive Health on Instagram help? Yep, yep, yep.

Just right.

So lots of education being put out. Put it put out there as well. So and, and a lot more to come actually so that it'll be exciting to be able to share more content.

Content, absolutely. Keep me posted on that and I'll share it with my, my people. Thank you all so much for your time today and your dedication to this work and to our health.

Thank you.