Selling Deodorant for $100M and How to Find Your Best Competitive Advantage with Moiz Ali

All right, so Moiz is here. And so I guess what people don't know, so you started, um, you actually started a couple businesses. People mostly know you from Native. So you created Native, which has the popular deodorant brand. You sold it to Procter Gamble for reported $100 million, which I think is, uh, one of the better DTC exits because you only raised like $4 million, I want to say, less than that even.

We raised $500,000 actually.

Oh my God.

Okay.

So you raised $500,000. And I, by the way, I don't know if you know this. I remember I was in a, a mastermind group with your brother and I was like, and he was like in between, he had, he already sold his company. So he was kind of floating in between things. It's like, why do you show, show up to the mastermind if you don't really have a business that you're working on? So I think he was kind of like fishing and he was like, you know, my brother's got this interesting business. And I was like, I was like, oh, I didn't, you know, I didn't even know. I didn't know him very well at the time. I was like, didn't even know you had a brother. He's like, and I was ready for this like big, Tech idea, and he's like, yeah, he's like selling like this natural deodorant. Like, and he made it sound like you're like sitting at home packing the deodorant like containers by hand. And he's like, he kind of was underplaying it. He's like, it's really cool. You know, it's paraben-free. I didn't know what a paraben was. And he's like, it's aluminum-free or whatever. And he's like, yeah, it's doing pretty well. And then he started to say the numbers, and I was like, whoa, that's actually like really good. And I was like, so how much has he raised? He's like, I don't know if he's—he's like he's raised like nothing. And so that's when you got on my radar and you've— I feel like you operated very quietly. You're kind of like me where when you're doing something that's working, you shut the hell up. And when you're not, when you're just thinking about ideas, you're like super loud to bounce them around off people. Is that your strategy?

That's exactly right. In fact, we'd done no PR for Native until after we sold the business. I remember we had all these news publications reaching out to us and I took one interview with— I think it was like Retail Dive or somebody. they were like, we want to talk about this deodorant company because we haven't heard of it. And they're like, who are you guys? What are you doing? And we sort of talked about the business and they wrote an article. And after that, I was like, I'm never talking about the business again. When we went to go fundraise, we talked to a few people. We talked to Simon Equity Partners, which is basically the family office of the Simon Property Group, which owns a bunch of malls across the United States. And we opened up our books to them and we're like, here's our business. And they're like, Our job is to find businesses like you. And, you know, you're down the street from us. You're based in San Francisco. Your headquarters is 3 blocks away from ours. We've never heard of this business and we should have heard of it by now. How come? And we're like, you know, we're not talking about our business. Like, no one walked around with Native t-shirts until after we made it, until after we'd made an exit. And then I was like, okay, now the brand can exist and we can be loud and public about it.

Is that— what is that? Is that paranoia? Is it just focus? Is it strategy? Why do it that way?

Yeah, I think it's 2 things. I think one, One is fear, which is like fear of embarrassment. Okay, my business failed and I was super public about it and now it crashed and everybody's going to think of me as a failure. So I was like, we're not going to fail publicly. If we fail, it'll be really quietly.

And then 2 was like, we fail the Indian way, silently in personal shame.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. No one will be able to Google me and be like, okay, Moiz Ali is a Failure. And then the other one was things were working so well. We're like, okay, we don't know how this is working so well or why this is working so well, but we better not go around thumping our chest saying this is working really well because one, I believe it'll jinx us and I believe in jinx. And 2, other people just start copying us and doing exactly what we're doing. And like, you know, I sold Native in November 2017. We had a competitor sell their business in December of 2017, a month after us. And, you know, in 2018, 2019, 60 competitors in the natural deodorant space popped up. And every brand that didn't have a natural deodorant was like, we should create a natural deodorant. And then 60 brands were like, hey, we want to create natural deodorant as our flagship or our hero product. And so by like not thumping our chest and not talking about our business, we were able to keep the category a little bit quieter. Before we came out and said, hey, this is a massive category and it's really working.

Right. And I, I, I appreciate that about you guys. I've actually learned a little bit in that regard in that I don't, I don't talk about my e-commerce business on here ever. Um, or I'll reference it, but I'll never say the name or the brand or whatever. Yeah.

Someone takes it out of my day.

Someone takes it out of my day. Yeah. I also have a business partner. Yeah. I have a business partner and they don't want me to talk about it. So I'm also like, okay, cool. Yeah. You know, I'll honor that wish. But I, I kind of came up with this term because you and your brother are the same in that normally you guys are all— the info flows one way. And, uh, this podcast is like the rare exception where I get to ask you questions. Normally, whenever I've seen your brother or you in any social setting, it's a technique I call Ali boarding. And it's like waterboarding, but just with questions where you just dump someone's head into a vat of your— a nonstop flow of questions. And by the end they're like, wait, so what's your name and what do you do? And you're like, by then you're like, I have your P&L and like I have your whole family's backstory. And it's not like in an evil way. It's like genuine curiosity, I think.

Sure.

Is what I've come to see. But it's also very effective. A, is that true? Do you, do you believe that? Am I characterizing it right? And then B, is that like conscious or did you ever like develop that as a skill? Or was that a choice you made or is it just natural?

Yeah, I think, um, A is it's partially right. It's more true with Solomon, with my brother, than it is with me. And he does that to me as well, where like I'll tell him about, you know, a meeting I had or a deal that I'm looking at and he'll be, he'll ask me ridiculous questions. He'll be like, what, uh, what did the lunch, what did the founder have for lunch on Saturday 3 months ago? And I'm like, I didn't get into that level of detail. You gotta stop asking those types of questions. But I do think we have genuine curiosity of like what's making other businesses work and what isn't. I remember we went to the Super Bowl, you know, 4 years ago or something like that in Atlanta. And we were at the Super Bowl party like the night before the game. And there were these 2 old desi uncles that were there as well. And they were there because they had— they owned Marriott Hotels and Marriott had invited them to the game in like their private suite. And, you know, they were probably in their 50s. And we asked them so many questions. I was like, you know, how much do you have to pay Marriott? And they also own like Hilton hotels. I was like, how much do you have to pay Hilton per year? Marriott per year? Do you have debt on the building? You do? What's your debt like? You know, how often do you have to renovate? How much do those renovations cost? How much— like, you know, what does your average occupancy look like? And they answered all these questions and they like didn't seem excited to answer them, but they didn't seem cautious. Like, they didn't seem like they were hesitant either. And at the end of all of these questions where we literally did have their P&L, you know, we're like, okay, well, you know, they didn't ask a single question. They were just like, okay, well, great meeting you guys. And we're like, all right, I now understand the hotel business from 2 operators that have 8 businesses around the Dallas-Fort Worth area. And they didn't want to know anything about us. Like, why were we at the Super Bowl party? How did we get here? How did we make our money? They didn't ask a single question. So I think there is a genuine curiosity that we have. That sometimes is lost on other people.

That's, that's exactly how it goes. I've seen it. And then also you had like a brunch. I saw you tweet out like, oh, inviting some D2C friends over. Like, who wants to have a brunch of D2C people? And I was like, oh, what a nice guy, just being social or whatever. I had a friend who went to your brunch and he's like, yeah, the brunch is basically Moiz sits at the head of the table and he's like, all right, what's your CAC? What's your ROAS? And you were like asking a bunch of questions. And I was like, that sounds about right. And I learned this from your brother. I was like, because I watched him one time and I was like, first, when I talk to your brother now, I'm like, it's like a duel. Like, he doesn't know this, but in my head I'm like, I'm going to ask whatever N number of questions you ask, N plus 1 will be asked back to you. Like, you know, because I will not be out-questioned because I know the technique. But I started, I started watching him when he talked to other people and I was like, how does he get them to divulge so much information? And again, not in a bad way, but just like what gets people in the flow of talking? I'm like, okay, so first, you He's genuinely curious. Like, he's super engaged. He's not looking around. He's not looking at his phone. He's actually looking them in the eye and he's asking them a bunch of questions. And I've noticed he does 2 things. When they're saying something he, uh, likes or is like a smart thing, he gives them tons of like, you know, nodding. Yup. That makes total sense. Got it. Love it. And then when they say something really stupid or weird or something that makes no sense, I noticed that when somebody does that to me, I'm like, but that makes— I like kind of start judging them a little bit and they can tell that I'm judging them and that makes them clam up. Whereas he'll just go, he'll just laugh and be like, amazing. And then he, he says the word amazing and then moves on. And amazing really means like, wow, it's amazing you're so stupid. Or it's amazing you think that, or it's amazing that you don't even know that. But like, he never makes them feel bad. He'll just be like, like, amazing. And then he'll just go on to the next question. And I realize that that is how he keeps the constant flow going. So I'm studying this Ollieboarding technique and I think I'm gonna be pretty good at it. I'm gonna be like, you know, a franchisee of your, of your question.

I love that. Yeah. First we have to charge you per question then. But really he's like, I think the other thing that he does really good or really well is that he's like, how do you think about something? He never asks like, what's your CAC? He'll be like, how do you think about growth when it comes to social ads? And like, can you spend more there? And the question is really open-ended, but he's like aiming for something. He really wants a response and people like subconsciously get to it. And I've started asking, how do you think about that all the time now? Because it really gets people to open up and tell me about how they're, how they view their business and not just like a standard number. Um, and I really liked that question and I've also franchised that from him.

When I started my business, the e-com one, he, I told him about it and he had like, you know, some good questions. And then like, you know, the way y'all's brains work, it's just like, you know, nonstop. So I think at like 2 in the morning that same night, he just sent, or like, actually it was like 5 nights later. It was like completely unrelated. It was like 5 nights later, 2 in the morning, I get this email. It's one line from him. And he just says, he says like, with our business, I knew we just, it was this, we just needed to do this one thing and it would work. Like, and he explained like the competitive, like the, the positioning, like what we were gonna do different that was gonna cause it to work. It was gonna be X, but with Y difference. What's that gonna be for your business? And then I was like, that sent me into like a 3-week spiral of being like, oh my God, I need to know this answer. That is the important question as I'm starting this business. I really do need to have like a very strong point of view on what's gonna be the one thing that we're gonna do that's gonna make this business work better than all the others that are out there, or better than, you know, how can we compete given that we're years late to the party and whatever else. But it was such an important question and I was like, man, um, and like I ended up bringing him on as kind of like an advisor, but I was like, man, this is the value of an advisor is not the answer, but the question. The question that's gonna make you like think about your business in a way, or like reveal a shortcoming in your own thinking. That you then get to go fill in that gap for yourself.

Yeah, I think there's a lot of truth to that. The one thing I would say is that like, you know, I've started an e-commerce business and if someone asked me that about Native when I launched the business, I'd say, I've got no idea. We're aluminum-free. There are a bunch of aluminum-free deodorants right now. We're selling online. Is that better? Is that better than selling in store? I've got no clue. And so I think those questions are really helpful, but I think the fear that some of those questions can cause in terms of people being like, I need to figure out this answer before I can do X or Y before I can launch my product, before I can start spending marketing dollars? Like, you can figure out that answer well after your business is launched. And I think for Native, that really changed. Like, you know, we were an aluminum-free deodorant selling it on the internet, and I was like, that's going to be our competitive advantage. And then it became a little bit of like scents, you know, like fragrances. We have a strategy of launching new fragrances frequently, and those fragrances are different, and people are going to pantry load and buy a bunch of deodorants. So, it's not just buying one until you run out, but I've got 7 because this is going to be your fragrance rather than your perfume or cologne. And then, it was different marketing ideas and bundling products and launching new categories. There are very few brands that can expand from deodorant to body wash to toothpaste. Old Spice could never make a toothpaste. We're like, we're going to create a brand that can do all of those and it stands for better-for-you ingredients rather than one single thing. The answer to that question evolved and changed. And I think that question is great and people should think about that in the back of their minds, but it shouldn't prevent them from actually taking the first step to launching their business.

Totally, totally agree. Also about the like progressive, like iteration of that question of the, of the answer. But also, um, I also learned what a good answer to that is. A good answer is not, we're doing this magical thing that nobody's doing because usually that just doesn't exist. Like realistically, like that's probably a signal that it's a bad idea, not that it's a great idea. Um, and also not that like, we are going to jump through these 14 really hard to jump through hoops. Like, I'm going to crack, I'm going to be viral all the time. It's like, oh God, like that seems like a bad strategy to back. Instead, it was like, actually, there's a category that people want. And what we're going to do is like, people don't, don't like this one thing about the main competitor. We're going to do that one thing. Like, it's just common sense, but we're going to do that one thing differently. And like, I'm just going to obsess over Facebook ads in a way that they're not. Like, or just in a way that will work. Like Facebook ads are just working for businesses like these, so I'm gonna do Facebook ads. It's like almost the stupider the answer, the better, but like the clearer the answer, the better too. Like, if, do you even know what you're betting on? That's like, what do you think is gonna work here? And like, can you back that up as to why you think that's gonna work? But you don't want it to be a genius, magical, like ma— magical silver bullet solution that like nobody has ever thought of or nobody has ever pulled off. 'Cause that's usually just a sign of like weakness actually in the plan.

Yeah. Especially if you talk about partnerships or collaborations where people are like, I'm betting my future on the ability to get other people to do X, Y, and Z. That's never going to work. I couldn't agree more. It could be, look, we're going to create a digital-first brand that looks better. We're going to have a better user interface and we're going to have better colors and it's going to look better on your countertop like Native deodorant or your bathroom shelf like Native deodorant. And that was it. That's an entire plan. Right. And that's perfectly fine. And the one thing I realized here—

yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. Okay, so the idea is an example of doing that. So most people who listen to this are probably not brown or desi, so they don't know this brand. But if you've ever been to an Indian grocer, which there's all around the country, there's a bunch of these, you go buy the ethnic foods, there's this brand called Haldiram. which is basically they make like just like this like super addictive salty little snack. It's like fried. It's like their equivalent of chips. It's like fried, salty, kind of spicy. And you just buy this thing. It's like a trail mix basically that's salty. And so it's been around forever. They do like $500 million a year in sales. They're like a juggernaut of a consumer packaged good brand.

Wow.

They're like super profitable, don't do any like advertising. And like, they're just like, They're massive. And so like, I think one idea is like Holy Ram, but with like packaging that's just different, like different packaging, slightly better for you. Like maybe it's baked and not fried. And like, that's the whole business plan. Like, I don't need to know more to start than just that. And I think that that's a plan somebody could take today and go start. Like, okay, so then what are you going to do for this? Like, I don't know. Or the same as everybody else. Like you can do, I don't know, or the same as everybody else for all other questions. As long as you just had that one thing, which is like, These guys do like $500 million in sales and they sell mostly through these like Indian grocers. I'm gonna do that, but with better packaging, 'cause their packaging looks like my mom's packaging. I'm just gonna make it look like my packaging, like, you know, look, stuff I'm used to buying.

Yeah. And I can cater to Caucasians as a result of that. Like, you know, yeah, packaging that the entire world is gonna understand. It's not available only at ethnic grocers. There it is. That's our business model. We're like wrapping their product in a better bag.

Or like 2/3 of Indians have diabetes. And I'm just going to make mine like better for people with diabetes. And I'm just going to be like, it's baked, not fried. And like, it's better for you because of that.

Yeah. You know, the guys who started NatureBox, there's this company based in San Francisco that sold you snacks like trail mix basically, and shipped it either to your home or your office. Their original business model was we're going to go buy this at Whole Foods, put it in different size packaging and just ship it to your house. What's the difference between this and Whole Foods trail mix? Literally not a bit, no packaging difference, no ingredient difference. They literally go and buy it and ship it to your house. And that was it. And Instacart like started and they're like, what are we gonna do? You have a grocery list, you just email it to us and we're gonna go shopping for it. Like really simple ideas that were not like groundbreaking by any stretch of the imagination that built huge businesses.

And you invested in Manscaped pretty early on, I think, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I invested in Manscaped probably 3 or 4 years ago now.

And so you invested in Manscaped and it's been one of your— I think you tweeted out one of your best performing investments. What did they do? Like, what's their version of this? Like the stupid simple plan that like just makes sense and it doesn't have to be rocket science, but like a simple plan executed well. What was their version of that?

Yeah, I think 2 things. I think one was they're like, look, we've created a product specifically for your balls. Even though the razor that works on your face works on your— like, you know, if you've got an electric trimmer for your face, works on your balls as well. It's not like it's different hair. It's possibly more coarse, but like that trimmer is going to work there.

Right.

And so they're like, look, we've created an electric trimmer specifically for your balls. And like, you know, that might appeal to people who don't have electric trimmers for their face. Like I imagine you do, It's hard to keep these beards trimmed well. But like, you know, if you've got it for your face, you can probably use the same thing for your balls if you're comfortable with that. They're like, hey, you're using a Gillette razor blade because you're clean-shaven. We've got something specific for your balls. So I think that was really smart. They're like, hey, use this product for a category that you probably aren't using it for. And then 2 was like branding and name. They're like, you know, they got the name right. They got the trademark right. I think those were probably really hard for them to get, although I'm not like involved enough to know that. And like, you know, they've done a good job with like unique and differentiated branding. Like they had, they had a barge sail up and down South Beach in Miami and they had a big billboard on it and it said, got bush, use Manscaped. Like they've done really unique things in order to get their name out there in a way that I think a lot of other direct-to-consumer businesses have failed where we're like, you know, Native would run billboards and we're like, here's an aluminum-free deodorant, please come buy it. It really didn't get your attention. These guys have done a good job of that. And today they posted on— they have a billboard in New York City right now. Instead of the heart emoji, it's an upside-down heart emoji. So it looks like a testicle sack, basically. That's really clever branding and really clever thinking. And so they're fantastic at that. And I think what's really difficult is that stuff doesn't scale. It's not like if the guy who's— if there's 2 guys thinking about this kind of stuff and they retire, you're not going to be able to hire or teach that skill to somebody else. You've got to find 2 rock stars that are able to pull that off otherwise. And I think that's going to be difficult for them. But so far, they're just knocking it out of the park.

And you see a ton of brands, a ton of DTC brands. You're probably like, you know, one of— when somebody has a DTC company, you're probably one of the most, I don't know, desired, like investor advisor type dudes. Like, that's your authority, right? People want to do what you've done. And then you've also invested in so many that now you have that portfolio and experience as well. But you also see a bunch of DTC brands do stupid shit. So what are some of the, like, kind of like, gimme your rant on the things you see DTC brands doing wrong. What are some of the common mistakes you see that drive you nuts? 'Cause I know that like both you and your brother, it's like operational, like, you know, operational excellence is what turns you on.

Yeah.

And operational, like, you know, ignorance or whatever, you know, is what like, you know, drives you nuts. And so gimme some of the things you see DTC brands doing wrong or Or stupidly?

Yeah, overhiring and like spending money on dumb things. Like, you know, Native was doing probably, we were at a $50 million run rate or close to a $50 million run rate when we sold the business. And we had 8 people at the time. And when I left, you know, it was certainly doing north of $100 million a year. And, you know, we probably had 30 or so people on the team. Like there were not that many people for a brand that was doing a lot of revenue. You know, I've walked into offices where people have 20 people, you know, there'll be 20 people doing $2 million or $4 million in revenue. And I'm like, what are all of these human beings doing? Like, if you've got this many people here, send them to the subway handing out free coupon cards to people who are getting off the subway. This is too many people inside your office to be working on a $4 million a year brand. And so I think that's a real, like, you're burning way too much money if you have that many people. You know, Goldman Sachs had the standard of like, we want to do $1 million in revenue per employee that we have. That should be something that's rather easy to do for direct-to-consumer businesses. I sit on the board of a company called Brumate, which makes like, you know, drinkware. Think like, you know, like hydration kits or can coolers for slim cans. They had one employee and they were doing $30 million a year. Like only the founder, Dylan, was at the company and he was doing $30 million a year. Now he had some outsourced agencies that he was working with to help him run, to help him run Facebook ads and to help him do customer service stuff. But like he had one guy and one guy on the payroll, so he could easily flex up and down with those agencies depending on how the business was going. So I think hiring, overhiring is a real problem. The other thing I think is like another way to spend money poorly is like a beautiful office. I remember walking into some direct-to-consumer founders' businesses when I was running Native, and I was like, wow, this brand is super successful. Look at how nice this office is. They have a big— they have a logo on their, you know, on the wall right when you walk in. After we sold our business, the first time P&G came to our office, because, you know, we've been doing it offsite so as not to tell everyone, you know, if 13 people from Procter Gamble walk into our office with 8 people, people are going to be like, hey, what's going on here? So we kept meeting offsite. And finally, when they walked in, They, you know, there was a sticker on the door that said Native. Like it was a, it was a sheet of paper. I had written out Native by, uh, with a Sharpie marker and taped it on the door. And that was our office. It was like, you know, done with one penny. Uh, and they were like, is this seriously your office? I was like, yeah, of course this is our office. And they're like, this is the cheapest office I could possibly have imagined. And I was like, hey, we care about dollars. And so, you know, I used to be afraid of being frugal and I'd be like, wow, I'm so embarrassed. And now I'm like, it's a real badge of honor. We're running a fiscally, like, you know, we're fiscally conservative when it comes to this business and we care about dollars and they're my dollars. I want to spend them well. So I think that's the second thing. And I think the third thing is really poor marketing. A lot of founders, like if I, if I ask a founder, hey, what is your CAC last month? And you don't know, that is a terrible sign. If you're doing under $40 million a year in revenue and you don't know what your CAC was last month, that's crazy. If you don't know what your CAC was yesterday, that's okay. But like you should know what it would probably You probably should know. And if it, like, you know, you, you know, if I ask you at 10:00 AM and you don't know, that's okay. If I ask you at 2:00 PM and you still don't know what your CAC is yesterday, that's a real problem. You're just not involved in the numbers enough. Like, this is how you grow these businesses. It's paid ads or some sort, some sort of advertising spend versus return on that investment. And if you're not familiar with those numbers, you are, you know, being grossly negligent with your business. You are, you know, being grossly negligent.

And you, you used to do a bunch of like kind of like hands-on, unscalable stuff like this. So I think, you know, I don't know to this day, but like you, I showed you what we do as far as this morning we were talking and I showed you what we do as far as like every day in Excel we handwrite, here's how much we spent. Yeah, I love it. Here's the, here's the new customers we got. Here's the blended ROAS, here's the CAC, here's how much from email. And we write that every single day into this like spreadsheet. And I'm sure there's like more automated ways to do it, but it's not perfect. And like, the practice of doing it by hand makes you think about each of these numbers because you're like, why is this number always 52? And I need to get this number to not be 52. I'm tired of writing effing 52 on this spreadsheet.

Sure.

If this number was 42, we would be making so much more money. Okay, that becomes my daily focus. And I've seen you tweet out about people going and they go to Target, they watch the aisles themselves to see how people are buying their brand or what they're not. what they're doing when they choose the brands. What are some of those unscalable things you've done yourself, or what are your favorite kind of like, give me some scrappy stories of like stuff that, that like you did as an operator or your favorite operators have done.

Sure. You know, I used to email every single customer at Native and I was like, hey, what, you know, you bought our deodorant. Do you like it or do you not like it? If you like it, leave a review. And if you don't like it, email me back and tell me why you don't like this. And, you know, we were doing $300,000, $250,000 in revenue before we hired our first customer service rep. Like, I was looking at every single one of those emails being like, what's working here and what isn't? And that's how we got our product better. We listened to consumer feedback and, you know, we sent out, you know, we were doing 500, 600 orders a day, probably more than that. So we were getting a lot of customer service responses to that type of inquiry. But literally every single customer who ever purchased from us, I would wait like, you know, 5 days until it was too late for you to return the product. Because if you emailed us and you're like, I hate this thing, can I return it? I want to be like, no, we're past the return deadline. You can't do that any longer. So I literally had it scheduled for like, you know, at Native you can return a product for 30 days. I had it scheduled to go out day 40 because I was like, you know, it's going to take 5 days in shipping. And so day 40, we would email you and be like, tell us what you like and what you don't like. And, you know, we're going to go and try and fix these things. We once had— we invited a bunch of consumers to a location and then started grilling them with questions. Hey, you know, they were consumers that had purchased from us a bunch. They lived in San Francisco and we're like, why do you like Native deodorant? Why do you think it works better than other deodorants in the market? Because, you know, people would be like, it has probiotics. That's why it works better than other deodorants. And I was like, what makes you— like, it does have probiotics, but you have no idea whether that's effective or not. But I was like, No matter what we do with our formula, we have to keep some level of probiotic in there because people think probiotic means efficacy, whether it does or not. And so those are the types of things that were really interesting and fun and, um, you know, non-scalable. You know, I also— you were talking about, um, Solomon was talking about my business and how I pack boxes. I did pack boxes. I packed boxes until we were probably doing about $80,000 in revenue a month. Like, you know, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, I would go home after working Put on Star Trek and start packing boxes. And you know, I was like, okay, I knew how much a box weighed. I knew how much filler paper to put in there. I knew how much a box weighed when, like, you know, with deodorant, without deodorant. I knew how to optimize those prices. I knew when we were creating custom boxes, I was like, I want our box to weigh 1 ounce and not 1.3 ounces because at 1.3 ounces it tips us over this level and at 1 ounce it doesn't. I'd go to our contract manufacturer all the time and be like, Hey, we're seeing these types of fuck-ups. What's going on here? And so, I was intimately familiar with the formula. I knew the steps to how to pour the formula, what temperature we poured it out at. And Native was being hand-poured. We were making 20,000 units of Native deodorant a day and we were hand-pouring each single bar. So, there were about 100 people working in Austin, Texas hand-pouring deodorants. And the best person could hand-pour about 1,000 deodorants a day. And a new person could hand pour about 75 deodorants a day. And we had to train these people to go from 75 to a couple hundred or 500. And that was really interesting as well. And so there was a— and I mean, that's not scalable. Certainly hand pouring deodorants isn't scalable, but we went from 500 units of deodorant a week to 21,000 a day, still hand pouring. So it was more scalable than I thought it was going to be.

Yeah. And how much of that is you being a maniac versus like Good strategy, right? So like if somebody in my company was doing that, I'd be like, why are you doing this? You need to hire somebody so you could do something higher leverage. But clearly it kind of worked for you to be like a maniac and doing all the things yourself. So like, you know, what's the line? What's the right way to think about that?

Yeah, that's a great question. I think if you're completely divorced from customer feedback, you're setting yourself up for disaster unless you've created, you know, a flywheel that you know exactly how it works. Like, you know, when Native was doing $100 million of sales a year, I probably wasn't in customer service any longer. But when it was doing $50 million in sales a year, I was in, you know, I was probably the number one, if not the number 2 customer service agent. And so like, you know, you need that feedback to understand what's working and what's not, where there are problems in my business and where they're not. And so, uh, like, I don't know what the right line is, but divorcing yourself from customer feedback at under $25 million a year is bananas to me. You're not gonna know what people love about your product and what they don't love. And you're not gonna know, like, you know, we'd have operational issues that I wasn't aware of. We'd be like, shipping is taking an extra 3 days when it go— when it's going to California. What's going on here? Like, is there a problem in California? Is there a problem with our shipping company? Sometimes we'd run out of things and no one would know until a customer emailed us being like, hey, I'm waiting 4 days. And we're like, we're out of this. We're out of coconut and vanilla. I don't believe it. And then we check our inventory and we're like, how did we run out? Like, we did such a poor— not only did we do a poor job at inventory forecasting, We weren't even aware that we ran out when we ran out. And so those were a couple of the ridiculous things that would happen. But like, you know, because you're intimately involved, you're able to like, you know, understand the business at a deeper level. And I think like really being engaged at, you know, what does my shipping look like? You know, how can I make shipping faster so I can reduce costs? Is the weight of the box or the weight of the filler or the size different? There was a company that I knew that I was friends with the CEO in San Francisco. His box, he was shipping through Amazon, and his box that he was shipping in was about a half inch too large. And it went from being extra, like, it went from being like a large box to a custom large box. And so his shipping rate went up like $70 a box because of this half inch he had. And like, you know, when people discovered it, or when he discovered it, he's like, I can't believe we've been shipping like this for so long. You know, if you're intimately involved, you're probably gonna catch those things a little bit earlier.

Right. And so you, let's zoom out. So you, um, you've seen DTC change. You, uh, you also have seen, you know, you also invest in the stock market. And so you've seen Shopify, Amazon, Facebook. Give me on each of those 3 stocks, give me your lay of the land on like what you think has happened and where you think that those are going. Are they trending? Are they rightly priced? Are they underpriced? Are they overpriced?

Sure.

You know, give me, give me a shot. Let's do Shopify first and then we'll do Facebook and then Amazon.

Sure. Okay. And for context, I've lost millions of dollars in Shopify stock in the last 6 months. And, you know, I wrote this Twitter thread about it as well. And I was like, Shopify keeps their, their motto is to arm the rebels. And I said, they keep giving us muskets in a war that's being fought with like nuclear weapons.

And you, when you put out tweets like this and you basically say, hey, here's what I think you should do with your strategy, or if I was CEO, here's what I'd be doing, or like, As somebody who's lost millions of dollars on your stock, here's some things that I think could help. Do you ever hear back? Is it crickets? Do you get other interesting inbound? What happens after you put that out there? Because I've done that a few times and I've gotten very interesting situations occur from my tweets like that. What's happened for you?

Definitely interesting situations. Tobi, who's the CEO of Shopify, responded and he's like, these are great points. So did Harvey, who's the president, and definitely had some more interesting calls. And I'm not sure if that that Twitter thread, which was a couple months ago now, informed them and helped them create this lookalike audience system that they're creating at Shopify. But that's wonderful. I don't want any credit. Just go do it so that we can go get cheaper customers so that we can acquire customers at a cheaper rate and build better businesses. Go build out these products and make the platform fantastic. A bunch of people pay Klaviyo more than they pay Shopify. A bunch of people pay Recharge more than they pay Shopify. Like, these are Shopify apps that provide you with a small segment of like, or a small thing compared to what Shopify enables you to do. You know, provide some of these services at cheaper costs or build in some of these services to make the platform better. Like, you know, Triple Whale is doing a fantastic job at analytics. Why doesn't Shopify build their own subscription platform instead of outsourcing it to Recharge, which everybody hates and which charges a fortune? Like, what's going on there? It's been— you've been publicly traded for years. This, this is arming us. This is arming the rebels.

And so let's, let's shift away from DTC. Let's do other types of investing because you do real estate. You've tried to buy pieces of sports teams. You've tried a bunch of different things. So let's just start with the big picture. So give me a pie chart percentage-wise of what do you do with your money? So you, you came to a bunch of money. You, What's in cash? What's in real estate? What's in stocks? What are you doing percentage-wise roughly for those?

Great question. Great question. And I think the answer is I should know the answer. I know my CAC from yesterday.

You should know your CAC. Yeah.

And this is me not knowing my CAC, which is embarrassing. The— like probably around $10 million in private equity, probably around $40 million or $50 million in cash. Which is a lot, and not like cash, cash, where I'm like literally holding it in cash, but like really short-term bonds waiting for bond prices to go up. And so now I'm starting to leg into positions where I feel like interest rates are getting more exciting, and so I'll put my money there. So, you know, I've been investing in really short-term bonds that, you know, aren't really subject to much interest rate risk because they've got 6-month maturities and not 5-year, you know, bonds that are more subject to interest rate risk. And you know, since interest rates have gone up over the last four months, I've started to deploy more capital in that respect. But a lot of cash, probably twenty-five million in real estate, thirty million in real estate that I'm like you know that I or you know my family owns and we're operating ourselves. And then probably another ten million in real estate as LP somewhere here or there. I don't know how much money that is. But then there's like you know I don't know. Then there's like random and probably another. $10 million in startup investments. So maybe more than $10 million in startup investments. Good question. Probably around $10 million in the stock market. Maybe a little bit less now that Shopify and Facebook have gotten cremated. So maybe less than that now, but I'm not exactly sure what the amount is there.

And why such a big cash position? Is that to be conservative? Is that just, I'm so busy, I haven't figured out how I'm going to deploy all this? Or is it intentional? Like, no, I want to have, let's say, 50% 40%, 50% cash and kind of bonds.

It's more reactive than it is proactive. Like, I'd love to be more invested. And part of it was actually like, you know, proactive in terms of waiting for interest rates to go up again. Because, you know, if you invested 2 years ago or 3 years ago, you've barely gotten any return on your dollars. So I was like, we can sit on cash and not be subject to so much interest rate risk. Now I'm getting more excited about that. But a lot of it is, um, you know, when you get to a certain scale of wealth, you hire professionals who are like private wealth managers to help you deploy your capital. In a way that's really intelligent, in a way that's unique, and you know supposedly gives you a competitive edge because you have more capital to deploy. So you're able to hire smarter people to deploy that and you know earn a greater return. That's the shtick that they sell you. I'm not sure that shtick is real at all. Like private wealth managers have been really disappointing. Like no one is doing anything unique in this industry. You know if you ask two private wealth managers, what's the difference between you and this other person? They'll just shit on the other person and you'll be like, what are you going to get me? Like, what are you going to invest me in that this person isn't? Like, what's your competitive advantage? Do you have access to deals that this person doesn't have access to? They're like, no, we both manage the same amount of money. We've been around the same amount of time. And they're like, you know, have you heard of Elliott? I'm like, yeah, I've heard of Elliott. It's in the Wall Street Journal every fucking day. I'm pretty sure everyone could get me in there. Like, you know, their fund is $20 billion. I'm sure anyone could get me in there. And they're like, yeah, anyone could get you in there. But we know them really well. And I'm like, okay, I don't know what that means. And so, like, I guess where I've been disappointed and where I've been lost in this world is how do I deploy my capital in a really effective way? And, you know, every— like, you know, if I tweet something about this, I tweeted like, hey, if you've got $300,000, if you're earning $300,000 a year, it's really hard to know what to do with your money. You're not rich enough for the private wealth manager, and you're too rich for the Bank of America person who sits at the retail branch. And you know, I got a bunch of people who are like, I do this for 300,000 people who earn about $300,000 a year. I didn't bet any of them, but like they were aggressive. And like, you know, these private wealth managers, if you sell a business, they just reach out to you and they're like, help us, let us manage your money. And you're like, what are you going to put me in? And literally none of them say anything unique. None of them have their own things. They're just like, we're going to invest you in this other guy's fund. And every private wealth manager can get you in there. For instance, with public equities, they all tell you, go invest with Parametric. They do tax loss harvesting, so you'll get an extra 0.25% to 0.5% return over the S&P 500 if you invest with Parametric, as opposed to doing this— as opposed to just investing in a Vanguard ETF. But they all tell you to do that. Why would— like, you know, why use Goldman Sachs instead of First Republic instead of a smaller boutique fund if you're all just going to invest with this dollars with Parametric? You're all the same at that point. It's like, you know, it's like buying an airline ticket from Kayak or Expedia, but riding on American Airlines and getting the exact same seat. Ultimately, you're getting the same product. And so I haven't been smart enough and spent enough time figuring this stuff out.

Gotcha. And then what about crypto? You don't do anything crypto. And is there like a strong opinion, like, oh, it's all fugazi, or you just haven't had time?

Very little with crypto. I'm like an investor in a couple of fund of funds that have made a fortune in crypto. So these funds have returned a significant amount, and it wasn't in their sort of like fund charter to go invest in crypto, but they did it anyway. And they're like, look, we're up 10,000%, so you can't complain. They're like, look, we turned your dollar into $10,000. You can't be an asshole LP and be like, what the fuck? You can't do this. They're like, here's $10,000. Shut the fuck up. So they can do it. Generally, I just don't understand the value yet, and so I've been hesitant to get in there. I'm not opposed to it. You know, everyone says invest 5% of your net wealth in it. I wouldn't invest 5% of my net wealth in it. You know, it's hard because the Sam Pars of the world are like, Moiz, you're not investing in crypto. What the fuck are you doing? And the Warren Buffetts of the world are like, if you offered me all the crypto in the world for $20, I would not buy it. And so I guess I've just been sitting on the sidelines. I don't know if that's good or bad, but if someone has a strong opinion and can convince me, please do so.

Okay. I'm going to resist the urge to do that now because people have heard me rant too many times on it. Um, all right. So I guess let's, let's do a little bit like, uh, uh, let's do a little touch on real, little real estate, then we'll do the personal stuff. So real estate, you've been deploying, but now it feels like the landscape has changed. I think you kind of have an opinion on what's changed. Give me your current take on like, what do you see and what are you doing?

Yeah. So, uh, I left Native in, uh, February 2020 and, um, right when COVID was gonna hit, like, I was like, I'm gonna go to Europe. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna go to France. I'm gonna try and drink all of the wine they produced in 2019 in February 2020 in France. And then COVID hit, and instead I was stuck with my parents, like, you know, all day. And it was a very different experience than I suspected it was gonna be. And so I started buying real estate. And so from like January or from February 2020 to probably the end of 2021, I bought about 50 or so units, generally single-family homes, some duplexes, some fourplexes. 2 units in— aside from those 50 units, 2 units in California where they're old apartment buildings that are really small and we're renovating. And then I was an LP in a bunch of different funds. Everyone who bought in 2019, you look like a fucking genius. People are like, wow, you're such a savvy real estate investor. I started buying because I had nothing else to do. If they were going to return money, gonna return 5%. They're returning 12%, 14% now, and that's fantastic, but I'm not sure I was very savvy about it. I haven't used leverage, which is really stupid of me. And it's really stupid today because if I'd borrowed a year ago, I would've gotten 2.5% interest. I could've just invested in that 10-year bond and made money. I just haven't used leverage in part because I'm too lazy to try and get it, and in part because I'm like, I've got enough capital to deploy already. And the returns have been fantastic. You know, I bought homes and I was underwriting for 6% returns that are 12-14% returns. They're crazy. I bought a fourplex for $600,000. I thought each unit would rent out for like $800. They're each renting out for about $1,400 now. So it's— I'm making a fortune. People are struggling with rents. And so state governments are often stepping in and providing rents to landlords. Like, you know, we get a call being like, hey, John can't pay his rent. We're going to cover the rent for the next 18 months. And, you know, they'll cut you a check for 18 months of rent and late fees, which is bananas. And so it's been a fantastic investment. But yeah, I am slowing down now.

And do you think— where do you think this goes? Are you going to— you're slowing down, but are you slowing down because you sort of are like, okay, I'm allocated how much I want to be allocated, or you're slowing down because you're like, wait, this no longer— these prices no longer make sense?

It's not even the prices don't make any sense any longer because this is the one asset class where I'm like, I have a really long-term view. Stocks, look, I've been in Shopify, never sold a share. Facebook, I've been in, I've never sold a share. I've had them both for 5 years, if not longer. Microsoft, I've been in for more than a decade. I remember buying it while I was in my admin law class in law school, and I've still held every one of those shares. So look, Generally, I'm a pretty good long-term investor. Real estate, I think of myself as, I will never sell any unit in real estate. My children will inherit this, or natural disasters will take these things into the ocean. I'm okay with either of those, but I will not sell one under any circumstance. So, I'm not really worried about prices in terms of cap rates long-term, but I do think there'll be a small market correction. So, I guess I've slowed down my purchasing. I'm still under contract to buy 2 or 3 units in the next couple of months, but I'm not like before. I was trying to buy a unit a week or 2 units a month, and now I'm sort of like, let me buy a unit a month or less just to see what happens to the market as interest rates go up. I think these prices will come down a little bit. But a lot of my cash is in real estate, $25, $30 million. I'm not scared. If the market crashes, nobody will be more excited than me. I will deploy all the cash I'm sitting on for this. I have no problem if that $30 million goes down to $5 million. I will not get— like, this is the one asset class where I will not get scared. I will double, triple, or quadruple down as opposed to being like, oh my God, I got to sell what I've got.

And that's just because you're like, this is a concrete asset. There's limited supply. There's always going to be demand.

It's such a daisy mentality. You know, it's like my parents' mentality of like big cash flows. It's immune to Facebook ad prices. It's immune to the stock market. It's like generally, like it's real diversification from my e-commerce and startup investments. Like these things will exist. They're generally, they're primarily in the South with the exception of a few in California and a few in Colorado. They're places where people are moving to and not moving from. And so I'm excited about them. And yeah, so I would never, I have no desire to sell them, get emails and calls all the time. No excitement whatsoever to sell. Love holding this stuff and generates a ton of cash. And, you know, the other way I think about it is, um, and this is also pretty Daisy mentality, is like, okay, I've got all these expenses per year and no job. Uh, I need something to make up for that. Like these expenses, like I don't want to dip into capital. I don't believe in like, you know, dipping into it.

Like the balance never goes down. The balance should always go up.

That's right. I'm terrified of the balance going down. And so I'm like, I need something to afford my lifestyle. And this real estate helps me afford my lifestyle.

How do you think about that? That's, uh, I'm— I don't know if I'm just too dumb or too lazy, but it's one of the two where I'm like, um, I basically picked 2 lanes to think about and I was like, I don't really have the like mindshare to be able to think about— like if I go into real estate today, I'm the dumbest guy in the room. Okay, well it doesn't take a genius to do real estate, so that's okay. I think If I put my mind to it, I could do that, but that's now my mental cycles that are not going towards my business or the stuff I'm more interested in where I think I can have a bigger edge, where I think I can be more like the top 1% rather than like the 60 percentile or whatever.

Sure.

And so that's the first part is like, do I want to try to learn this game from scratch if I'm going to do anything direct? Or even if I'm going to invest in funds, I got to have some ability to vet these funds and pick. But okay, they're all pretty safe. You can get your 5, 6%, it seems like, without It's not totally variable like that. Um, the other thing is like, in direct, I'm just like, who's gonna have the time to manage all this? Like, I did one transaction buying my house that I was gonna buy, I was gonna live in in San Francisco.

Sure.

And just the process of dealing with the bank to get the loan and then the closing, the escrow, and then the inspections. And it was like, um, I couldn't do anything else. I was like paralyzed from like actually doing stuff I liked because I was constantly having to nurse this project. And I was like, I can't imagine buying 50 units in a year, um, or, you know, 20 units in a year and like the amount of just transactional like logistics that I would have to go through.

Yeah.

It's such a turnoff from like, for what is the return? Basically the same average as the stock market in the long term. Okay. Like I don't have to— diversification is not that important to me to like do both of those things. Like the mental cycles plus the physical energy it would take to do the transactions and then manage them. And then like, Yeah, my, my tenant calls, you know, my property manager calls me about the tenant that's calling me about whatever. I don't actually even know what goes into it, but I know it's not nothing. And right now my tolerance is nothing for like, for like headache.

Yeah. And this isn't like, you know, someone calls you on a Monday being like, my AC is broken and it's in San Antonio, Texas. You can't be like, okay, I'm gonna get back to you Thursday. Like, you know, it's 110 degrees outside. You need to get that fixed in the next 12 hours. So you're right, there is a lot of pain there. When I was purchasing—

I called my manager. I rent the current place that I live in, and I called him. I was like, hey, there's like a weird smell. He's like, okay, so like, where's it come from? I was like, I don't know. It's a smell. I can't see it. He's like, okay, like what kind of smell? I was like, I don't know. It's just like bad. It's like, it smells really bad. And he's just like, okay, you gotta gimme something. And I was like, and it's Sunday and like, you need to send someone here because I can't have a house with a bad smell. Like, and I'm just like, I got kids, you know, that, that's the card. And I'm like, you gotta send somebody now to figure out this mystery thing. And then the guy comes over, he's like, where's the crawl space? I'm like, I don't know, it's not my house. I don't know. Go ask this guy in Arizona who owns this house who's 90 years old. Go ask him where the crawl space is of this property because it's his problem to like fix this for me and I'm just going to be a baby about it. And then I think about what it's like to be on the other side of that. And I'm like, is that worth the like $500 like net that he's making per month on my, my rent? It's like, probably not for me.

Definitely not. Yeah. Yeah. You're absolutely right about that. And what was in the crawl space? It was like a— I don't know.

We never found it yet. The guy didn't get back to me and now I'm pissed. Like, we have no idea where it is. The guy like sealed up one hole. So he's like, maybe this will help the smell go away. That was it. I was like, okay, well, we still don't know what's causing the smell. You just bottled it up. Like whatever's in the wall that's dead or whatever's going on here.

Yeah, sure.

He's like, you know, he's like, he, the guy came over and on Google Translate, he typed out, he's like, if the smell's still here tomorrow, I'll come undo the whole wall thing I just did. And I'll go find what's in there. I was like, bro, can't you just do that now? Can we not go into the wall now?

Why do we got to do that? You put that on Google Translate. That's hilarious. Yeah. A bunch of, a bunch of the real estate I bought is like an auction. And so when you walk, like, they're very— there's no inspection, there's no financing ability. Like, you know, you bid on an auction, you write, you know, you wire the money the next day, and then you open the house and you're like, what did I just get into? And so sometimes you'll walk in, like there was one house I purchased and the guy had passed away, not in the house, but like everything was still inside of his house. Forks and knives, spoons. His cars were in the garage. He had a safe in there. We had to empty the entire house out before we could rent it out. And you have no idea. And that was a mediocre situation because everything was still in okay shape. He used to live there. There was another house I got that was in perfect shape. You go into the house and you try and look through the blinds. to find out what the condition is going to be inside. This one you couldn't see at all. It's the only house I've been to where I was like, I couldn't see at all. And I opened up the lock after I bought it and it's in perfect condition. There have been houses that I bought, I walk in and I'm like, fuck, I'm going to have to spend $40,000 that I didn't underwrite for replacing the roof or changing the tile or putting in a new kitchen. And so it is a lot of rolling the dice, at least in the way that I've purchased. And sort of using the law of large numbers to be like, this is going to make sense at some point. And sometimes it does, and sometimes you get screwed and you just eat the ones that got screwed. Like, there have been 2 that I've purchased 2 years ago that are still not rented because I haven't done the work to go and fix the houses to make them habitable. And that's a lot of capital that was deployed and nothing's happening with right now.

Yeah, you need to just get some YouTuber who does— he's trying to make content about renovating home, be like, hey, you can use my home and you get X percent and you get to use all the content. This is your home, sir. Go ahead and make it. I would love that. Go ahead and flip this thing. Definitely.

Yeah, that'd be great.

You and your brother both do this, which is I think you treat business like a— business is your fun, your adventure. I feel the same way. And I asked him because he gave me money and he was like, I'm going to advise your company. And I was like, cool. But Just so you know, like, why are you doing this? Like, I want you to do this, but like, as your friend, I'm like, why are you doing this? It's a waste of your time. Like, this is never going to make enough money to move the needle. Like, your share of this is never going to make enough money to justify the time and energy. And like, it's not going to move the needle for you. So like, really, this makes no sense. Why are you doing this? And he goes, he said something. He goes, he goes like, I am not happy unless I am like entrapped in, you know, in a business. And he's like, but he's like, as long as I get to create the— I want to live in a prison of my own making. And like, as long as I get to choose, I'm good. But like, I'm also not like— I can't be content and fulfilled unless I'm like, unless I'm locked into like a raging battle with like, you know, some like business thing. And I was like, wow, that's crazy. But it also makes sense to me. And you're the same way when you're like, how do I do real estate on hard mode? Like, You could just LP a bunch of funds and you're like, no, I'm going to go buy stuff. I'm not just going to buy good stuff. I'm going to buy stuff at auctions that I'm going to go have to take a 2x4 and break off a lock and then walk in and see what I got and then figure out how to turn this into $1,400 a month of rent. And you're like, yes, sign me up. Whereas I'm like, that's what you do to get to your spot. You got there and then went back to the beginning and I'm now going to call you— I don't even know this analogy, but like, I always heard my engineers talk about servers that run on bare metal. I'm like, I don't know enough about servers to know what the fuck that means. But it was always like, what's the most like hardcore way this server can run? It's like optimized for performance. And like just the, just the term bare metal, like just told me everything I needed to know about what the hell they were talking about. It's like this kind of waste of time, hard mode way of doing something that does yield like the best return and like satisfaction of like Optimizing the space.

Yeah.

I was like squeezing the juice out of the fruit. And like, to me it's like, Moiz, you're like, you like to operate on bare metal. It's like you're choosing to like play this game on like, you're like, how do I handwrite my UTM parameters on my ads? And then like, how do I, you know, stock my deodorant sticks myself and answer every customer service question? And then how do I like buy real estate at a foreclosed auction with no financing and no diligence? And then like figure out how to make that work. You're bare metal.

You know, there is like, first I learned how to break into houses. Like I learned how to pick locks because of real estate. Like I can walk into a house now and like open it up pretty much because, and like I carry tools with me when I'm traveling to these houses to be able to like open up homes so that I can go inside, which is a little bit crazy. And in fact, I saw my parents, my parents are, you know, two, like an older Indian couple, obviously. that are like infirm and walk, you know, my mom will be like, my knee hurts, and she walks with a limp. And then when she's trying to break into a house with me, she'll turn into like Yoda where she can do spins. She's like, what if I climb up to the top of the ceiling and like go, you know, jimmy down the chimney? I think I can get us in there. And I'm like, I thought your knee hurt, but now, now you're perfectly fine. You can like climb this wall and like, you know, go up the, uh, go up the into the chimney. And she's like, yeah, I got it for this. But I think that really, I think there's a lot of— in my family, there's just a lot of interest in business. And so being an LP is a ton of fun. And I'm an LP in a bunch of these real estate funds. And I'm like looking at the numbers and some are making good money and some aren't. But like, you know, there's no sexiness to it. It's paper money. Like, you know, bring me the sexy problems. Like, oh, your toilet is broken? What the fuck are you doing here? Why is your toilet broke every day? Oh, the government is going to write me a check for 18 months? This is crazy. The government is going to pay me late fees. The government is going to call me and be like, hey, Moiz, you've got a house here. This guy can't pay his rent. We're going to pay you 18 months of future rent and the last 2 months and late fee for the last 2 months. Tell me why you're doing this. How did you get to this? Who thought this was a good idea? Does Greg Abbott think this is a good idea? Because that's a lot of money you're going to give me. And so, business is great and making money is great, but it's a lot more fun to be an active participant rather than a sidelines participant. Participant, like I don't want to. I don't want to read what's in the Wall Street Journal and be like, okay, that's great. I want to be like a part of that system that's going on. There's a great like analogy where this guy who's a partner at a big law firm, his name was Joe Flom. He worked at Skadden Arps. This was back in like the eighties and nineties where there were all these mergers happening. He he was like eighty years old and he slipped and fell in his bathroom and his head was bleeding. And he walked into this board meeting because he was part of this board that needed to. fend off a hostile acquirer and he had paper towels on his head because he was bleeding and he was 80 years old. And people were like, what the fuck is going on? You're bleeding profusely in your 80s. Like, I slipped and fell. And they're like, go to the hospital. And he is like, no, I want to be here. And they're like, what's going on? He's like, I don't care if I'm acquiring a company or fighting off an acquirer. I just want to be in the game and nothing is going to stop me. And this guy was 80 and bleeding and had paper towels on his head, but he wanted to be in the game. And I really respect that. Like, I want to be in the game. That's where there's a lot of fun in life.

You watch basketball, right?

Yeah.

Do you— which athlete, or in any sport, it doesn't matter, which athlete are you like, I admire their— the way they do their thing is how I do my thing or how I want to do my thing?

Yeah. Tom Brady. Tom Brady, for 2— I remember he won a Super Bowl and there was a 60 Minutes interview with him at 27. He was This was not his, like, you know, 7th Super Bowl. This is like his 2nd. And they're like, so what do you, you know, you're a Super Bowl champion, NFL MVP, what do you think? And he's like, is this all there is to life? Like, that's what he said at the end. He's like, is this all there is? And, you know, then he retired after 2 weeks. He's like, I gotta get back in the game. I had 2 weeks off. This is boring. I need to be back in the game. And he's just like an ultimate competitor. And I really admire that about him. But I'm sorry, that was the answer to the question.

That's that's great. I don't do you have five five more minutes? I want to do yeah yeah couple on the personal stuff.

All right, so what were you gonna ask about the athlete stuff though? I didn't mean to interrupt you.

No, that's what I was asking. I just wanted to know who you admire. I can't find this client info. Have you heard of HubSpot?

HubSpot is a CRM platform, so it shares its data across every application.

Every team can stay aligned.

No out-of-sync spreadsheets or dueling databases. HubSpot. Grow better.

You, uh, we had a little doc. I said, put down some bullet points. I said, you don't have to explain what they mean, but, uh, gimme some nuggets that we could go off of. On it, you had a section of personal stuff and you go, you have 2 that are really interesting to me. You go, I don't know how to spend money. What does that mean?

Yeah. Um, you know, I'm living in Airbnbs that are like 5 grand a month. Uh, I don't have a car. I don't have a house. Uh, I live out of a suitcase. And when expensive things are nice, I'm like, can I afford— I still do the math of being like, this seems too expensive for the value I'm getting. Even though at this point, $1,000 probably has no value to me. Not like no value, but it's not going to materially change my life. And I'm still so cautious when I'm spending $20. I don't know how to get this out of my system. Do you know how to get it out of your system?

I don't know how to get it out of my system. Have no problem spending money. Okay, gotcha. Spend too much money, but like I've seen this, and I think you know the one of the main things is I see my dad, and my dad has done really well, right? Like for he's got the same immigrant story that like everybody has, which is you come to the country. He had I think ninety one dollars. That was starting point, right? So that's the before, and then like you know he's made good money in his lifetime. Nothing like you know crazy to write home about, but like especially from a ninety one dollar starting point, like.

Yeah.

They have— my parents have enough money to do whatever they want. They really don't need to penny pinch. But like, you know, if we go to Starbucks and it's like, you know, would you like the— he's like, can I have the small? They're like, okay, it's called tall. He's like, no, but what's smaller than tall? Because I feel like the tall is going to be overpriced. He's like, you know, this is $3. Like, I, I can make this. It's mostly water. Like, he'll be talking to the people about it, right? I'm just like, oh my God. Like, not only is this embarrassing, but like, It's embarrassing in the moment because he'll just be like, let me clarify, you're saying the thing that's mostly water is $3.80? Like, hold on, hold on, stop the line. What's going on here? Or like, you know, you know, he'll pack 7 people into a hotel room because like, you know, we can make it work. It's like, yeah, but do we have to? Like, we're on vacation here. Why does it have to be a struggle? And like, and so, you know, I just saw he could never get it out of his system. Like those, those.

Yeah.

Yeah. The scarcity mindset was just so ingrained in him because— and it's like, all right, I get it. He had no safety net. He had $91. Every dollar counted. And it wasn't about spending. It was about saving to get to build a safety net because you're in this new— you're in a foreign country. Your parents can't help you. Nobody can help you. And so I get that. But I saw that like, oh, wow, actually the money coming, it wasn't logical. Once the money was there, that didn't change. The mindset didn't change. So it's like I had to separate out, there's a mindset around money and then there's like the logical situation about the money. And there's actually, they're unrelated. You would think once the logical situation changed, the mindset will change. And it's like, no, it doesn't. So it's like an active thing. And so then I just started to, one of the reasons I asked you who you admire and you're like, I admire this guy who's got a bloody head going into the board meeting because he wants to do business that bad. I would view that as a failure and you view that as a success. And because I have this belief, which is you become what you admire, fundamentally, Yeah. If you admire something, you're gonna strive to it. So it makes a lot of sense to really pick and choose what you admire. Like, I'll give you an example. A lot of people admire Elon Musk, and I think Elon Musk is obviously super incredible in a couple of ways. Like, he's one of the greatest inventor and businessmen of our time, and like, you know, the greatest since Steve Jobs, I would say. But like, you know, I think he's like an Edison of our time. Great.

Sure.

Um, but he's also had, I think, like, you know, I don't know, 4 failed marriages. And like, that's not something I want for myself. So like, I gotta be careful To admire the all-encompassing person because I don't want the full result of that. And so you kind of got to— so I got really specific about what I admired. And once I admired certain things and I started to live life like those people, it's like, well, this guy's really, really happy. And wow, he's pretty generous. And he's not generous based off of having this huge amount of wealth. He's generous because He doesn't feel super scarce about money. He doesn't feel this lack of money. And so he's willing to give and he's willing to give freely and he doesn't think twice about it. And then he doesn't pat himself on the back about it either. Like, oh wow, I really admire that about him. I want to be more like that. And so to me, the only thing that got me to change my mindset was knowing that it's not going to change based on how much money's in the bank. And B, I have to change who I admire. If I'm gonna like change who I become, right? Because like I will naturally start to follow those blueprints and observe people doing those things and be like, oh, downloaded that. Like I will, I will make that ha— I will make that happen. Like I'll give you a little small win for me on this front. Like I was just on vacation. I was in Hawaii last week and like my parent, my dad is like I said, like a horrible tipper. And like so my whole life I basically saw my mom being like tip them and my dad being like You don't have to. And like, you don't have to. Or like, I did. And I'm like, he handed him like a 1, like 1, 1 was his tip. And like the absolute minimum. And I just saw the look on the valet guy's face or whatever. Like it wasn't even valet. Like he wouldn't do valet. It's like the face of the guy who you're mandatory. He's standing there. You got to give him something. The bellhop. Right. And it's like, so this time, um, we get to the place, the bellhop takes up our bags, you know, to the hotel room or whatever. And I felt all those same urges of like my upbringing, which was like, we can just take the bags ourselves. It's like, yeah, but like, that's this guy's job. And like, it's not about being lazy. It's like, that's how this economy works. That's how this ecosystem works. If I don't— like, you got to feed the whole food chain, otherwise somebody's not going to eat, right? So it's like, yeah, okay, I'm gonna let him do that. Then we got to the room. It's like, we have no cash. I don't carry any dollar bills. Like, I only have cards. And so I've been in this situation like 5 times before, and I'm not— I'm not proud of it, but like, I would just be like, dude, sorry, I don't have— like, I don't have anything. I don't have any cash. We just got here. I didn't bring cash. Or I would like, you know, let the guy leave it at the door and then I'd be like, you know, not there to like tip the guy. And, uh, and this time I was like, I was like, hey man, like, I'm so sorry, I don't have any cash on me. What's your name? And like, I made sure I went and got him later. And it was like, again, whatever, $10. But those $10 meant a lot to my— to me. And like, yeah, okay, that's a step in the direction of the guy who's not like has this lack mindset or scarce mindset about money and is looking to like hold on tightly to everything or like avoid paying things. It's like, no, no, no. Um, like, you know, make it happen. I actually had like a, a pretty comical series of events where on the, even on this trip where I like, my kid is 2 and a half, but it, but I don't know if you know, kids fly free under 2.

Yeah.

Um, and so I bought first class tickets cuz I'm trying to be a baller shot caller, but then I do the laptop. I, I lie about her age. to make sure she's under 2. And like, I knew in the moment, I was like, this feels wrong. But I was also like, the logic was like, well, it's like a couple thousand bucks to buy this 2-year-old kid a seat. Like, am I really gonna do that? And then everybody told me they don't check. So I'm like, I'm gonna get away with it. And I got penalized so bad for this cheapness that like, it was just karma teaching me this wonderful lesson. Because we get to the plane and they're like, oh, you guys can't sit— like, sorry, you can't board the plane. I'm like, what do you mean? Like, Not only can I not board the plane, I'm first class, but I get to board first. And they were like, no, actually you have like 2 lap infants. You got 2 little babies. There's only like X number of masks in the top thing. So like there's 3 masks and there's 4 of you. We can't let you board this plane. We're going to have to ask to see if somebody wants to switch seats with you for you to get on this plane. And I was like, what? And I was like, nobody's going to want to switch seats with the people with the baby. Like have us sit next to them. Like, yeah, it's not going to happen. So sure enough, They go on. Nobody wants to switch. I'm like, all right, we'll, we'll take, uh, like, we'll buy another seat. Like, it's too late, sir. The flight's full. I'm like, all right, well, we'll go to coach. We'll, we'll move back. They're like, coach is full. And I was like, all right, what's the next flight? Like, it's tomorrow. I'm like, oh fuck, I knew this little cheap move on my part of lying about the 4 months of my kid's age would come back to bite me. And it did. And so then like, we, my wife and I, we had this horrible flight over where like One, my wife was on the last row of the plane with a baby in the middle row between 2 people. And like, 'cause some guy was like, I'll give up my middle seat in the back, like to— and now I'm sitting next to this dude. And so instead of having this awesome family experience, we're having this terrible one because I cheaped out. And so I just started to pay attention to all the ways that saving money was costing me money and costing me like joy, uh, rather than like how much it's saving me and like what I, what I keep.

And so then who do you admire then? Is it somebody who's made that mind? Like, who is that?

Yeah, like my trainer. So like, I talk about him a lot. It's probably like eye roll at this point, but like the happiest person I know and not happy in like a cheesy way, like, but in a damn, I've never seen this dude not in a good mood. And like, I've seen him stuck in traffic for 3 hours. I've been late, super fucking late and inconsiderate. And like, you know, like, but he greets me like he's, he's just been having a party. He's like, dude, where you been? Because his life is a traveling party. And so I saw that and I was like, man, on every conventional metric that I was raised, you came from a brown family. I think he's like 41, 42 years old. He's not married. That's a household disaster if you're a brown person. It's like we're having interventions if that happens. He does well for himself as a personal trainer, but he's not the most successful guy I know. I'm surrounded by people with more quote unquote success than him in terms of financial success. So just in terms of the kind of conventional metrics, the things I thought were most important, his scoreboard, it wasn't like, wow, this guy, I admire him because he's successful. It's like he's successful at the game of life because this dude's never in a bad mood. And because of that, everybody wants to be around him. He's the most loved guy I know. Because of that, he has these magical experiences where it's like you go to a coffee shop with this guy and You're gonna have like something if you just hang out with him for 3 hours, like something awesome is gonna happen because his mood, he's gonna make a joke and then that person's gonna say this thing and then they're gonna take us to the back room and hook us up because they just liked our vibe. And like I tell the story, like he goes to the DMV and like he, you know, he goes to the DMV and it's like DMV is like the classic like worst place on earth to be.

Sure.

And like he went in being like, nah dude, he looked up the DMV on Yelp, it had 2 stars. And he's like, I'm gonna have a 5-star experience because I'm gonna be a 5-star DMV participant, uh, you know, and just watch what happens. So he like walked in with a little pep in his step, he's smiling, and he makes a joke to somebody. And he realized— and somebody's like, oh, you could— I'll just help you out over here. And everybody else is grumbling in line like, why is this guy getting to go up front? She's like, don't mind them. And then she flirts with him and like she, she hooks— and he's supposed to take the test and she's like, you know what, like it's fine. You've been driving for a long time. And she just gives him the thing and he walks out. He's like, damn, if I could do it at the DMV, I could do it anywhere.

That's awesome.

He's like, I wasn't always this way. He's like, dude, I was depressed for a while. My dad died and I used to be bitter about him for XYZ. And he's like, I used to be the guy, I didn't want to come out from the covers because I just wasn't looking forward to my day. If you looked at me, you'd just see a blanket and 2 eyeballs because I just didn't want to get out of bed. And he's not saying this as a motivational talk because he's not a motivational speaker. It's just like, He's my personal trainer. I just happened to hear these stories. So when I heard this, I was like, okay, this dude is winning. The reason I want this money, this fam, all these things, because I want to feel good. This dude just feels good on auto. He feels good no matter what situation you put him in.

Yeah.

So that's like an invincibility, right? He is unconditionally feeling good. So that's the guy I started to admire. And then I started to pattern myself after things that he was— anytime I noticed he did something different than me or my friends or the people around me, I took special note of that and like would lean into trying that out as a new experience to see, you know, is that part of what makes him him?

That's really interesting, uh, and a great story. And, um, you know, for a long— I feel like everyone I've admired, I've just been— it's almost like, uh, sex where I'm just automatically attracted to that person and it's not even conscious. Like, I just get an erection when, uh, you know, I hear about Tom Brady because I'm like, wow, that guy is awesome and really good at what he does. And he's this ultimate competitor and wants to win. Um, and I never realized— I never even thought that you could choose who you admire. I just assumed it was like, you know, your sexuality, where you're like, are you attracted to this person? It's like comes from here and not here.

Yeah, actually, maybe that is true. I think there's some truth to what you said. Uh, but like in the same way that like we don't all go try to marry porn stars, like there's a certain point where you're like, yeah, What really matters to— what do I actually want? And it's like, well, there's this initial thing, this physical attraction, which is important. But then actually, I now know it feels really good to have somebody who's caring and thoughtful and whatever, I can trust.

Yeah.

And the things that are slightly below the surface that you're like, oh, I actually— now that I know about it, now that I felt it, I'm like, those are super important. It's just less primal than the physical attraction, I guess.

Yeah, that's a great point. I've not done a good job of admiring people that I know really well. I admire people that I just hear about their competitiveness and their instinct to win. And I'm going to think about that and try to do a better job of that.

Your brother's like this. Your brother's another person I chose to admire because I was like, your brother's also in a good mood pretty much all the time. I've never seen him I've never seen him either, like, in low energy. Like, I've never seen him just kind of like on autopilot, the switch is off. And I've also like, even when he's like, like, I've never seen him defeated either. Um, so, so, you know, those are— so, so, you know, when I've seen him, I'm like, he walks into— like, when your brother walks into the room, like, he sub— he unconsciously goes, all right. And it's like, let's get— yeah. He's expecting like the parade to start. And I'm like, bro, this is just a bakery, but he's like, all right, what are you doing? What are you eating? Oh, is that good? All right. And like, it's not that he's— he's not like Mr. Smooth socially, but his like will to have a good time or like to have the experience like in its fullest actually like imposes its will on everybody else. Everybody has to participate at that point because they're like, uh, yeah, it's a croissant. You want to try it? Oh, you know what? You should actually do this. And it's like he forces the good time out of the average because He just literally walks in, he's like, all right, what are we doing? Or he'll be like, let's win. And I'm like, let's win what? We're not even like playing anything. Like, okay, I have to like rise to your level or I have to stop being friends with you because, uh, that's just the way you're approaching things. And like, either that's just, I'm out, or I gotta figure out how to be in. And being in kind of means like being on and not just being like ho-hum about that life, you know?

Yeah, yeah. I've chosen to stop being friends with him as a result of that. No, in reality, I actually admire him as well. And I know we're, you know, we were at, we were in Texas for like Mother's Day. It was my father's birthday 2 weeks ago. And someone had gone to Costco. I think my sister had gone to Costco and bought like, you know, some cases of water and like watermelons. And I got home and she's like, hey, Moiz, can you get this stuff out of the car? It's like heavy. And like, you know, I don't want to do it. And I was like, why don't you ask Salman? He's been at home all day. And she's like, he never does anything. Like, he will not lift a finger for this kind of stuff. And I was like, this is why this guy's always in a good mood. No one asks him anything that, like, you know, is not enjoyable because they know he's already said no to it so often that it's not like, you know, it's not something that's asked or expected of him any longer. So that's why he's always in a good mood. But it is a lot of fun to hang out with him. Like, I—

Yeah.

And, you know, I've hung out with him often enough to see both sides of that when he's, like, excited and, like, the energy comes And it certainly lifts me up, and times where he's more analytical and he's like, let's look into this and does this make sense? Or more like, I remember one time when TinyCo was struggling, I was in San Francisco and he's like, we have a new strategy of the whole business where instead of creating our own iPhone games, we're going to license the intellectual property of others. What do you think of this? This is like a bet the company move. And I had no idea. I was a lawyer and 22 and didn't know anything. But I was like, I could, I could get the real sense of like, it's not just pure optimism. There is a sense of reality there. And that also like helped me understand him a lot more too.

Yeah. He said something about you that I thought was a baller line that I've, I've reused many times, which was, uh, I don't even know if this is the real thing, but this is now the, the legend of it, which was when you went into the deodorant business, somebody was like, hey, Moiz, like, do you even know anything about the deodorant business or like about deodorant? And you were like, no, I know nothing about deodorant, but in 6 months I'm going to know everything there is to know about deodorant. And like, that's, that's enough for me to go. Like, I can start this. I don't need to like think of myself as some expert. I've used that so many times. Is that a true line?

Yeah, that's true. Yeah, that was definitely true. I remember who it was too, actually. It was the husband of one of my close friends who's like, you don't know anything. I was like, I use it and I'll be an expert in 6 months. Give it, give me 6 months.

And like, what an amazing attitude to have about anything. It's like, yeah, of course I don't know anything. And like, give me 6 months, I can be, Pretty, like I can be pretty much an expert at anything if you gimme 6 months of obsession. And I think that's true with everyone.

Sorry, go ahead.

Your brother had some that were like this, cuz I started writing down these traits. I was like, there's a, um, uh, what I call is like, you know, sometimes you have a speaker system, you turn it up to level 10 and you're like, oh, that's pretty loud. It's bumping. And then you like get in someone's car and it's almost like they got, they, theirs goes to 14. You're like, God, I can't hear anything. I'm deaf outta 2, like outta my right ear because Why is your shit so loud? But you're like, okay, at least I know what loud is now. I have experienced loud. Even if I don't ever want my speaker to be this intense, I now know the level of intensity that exists because I just thought 10 was the max before. And that's what your brother did. We invested in a company together and they were kind of fucking up. And I was like, dude, I've been trying to help these guys. Can you help me help them? He's like, yeah, great. All right, let's win. And he gets on the call, he does his clap and he's like, And they're, you know, they're kind of defeated. And he's like, okay, so let's raise all this money. You're trying to raise money. Let's raise the money. Like, let's look at the deck. And they like put out the deck and it was like awful. And he's like, okay, so this is bad, but let's fix it. Like, okay. So he rattled off, he's like, slide 3. And he was like super detailed, right? It's not just like general rah-rah. He's like, slide 3, that chart, it makes me think this. You need to flip the numbers to be like, visualize it this way. Like this example here on Google Images. And he did that for like this super detailed thing right away. And I was like, whoa. And then he was like, all right. Um, they're like, wow, thank you so much. This feedback's been so helpful. He's like, great. Um, how long do you think it'll take you to, to do this? Like to make these changes? And they're like, uh, I don't know. Hope I'm gonna work on it today. Like, you know, I know it's super important, so I'm gonna work on it today. He's like, great. It's noon now. Let's talk at 5. And then can you just— He's like, send me a standing calendar invite for 5:00 PM every day for the next 7 days until this deck is amazing. And he is like, let's just keep doing this, right? Like you said it was super helpful, right? So let's just keep doing this. And I was like, dude, I wouldn't have had the balls to tell any company I invest in, like, let's meet again in 3 hours. And it wasn't like forced. It like, I can't, even now when I'm saying it, it's not coming out the same way where it was like, great, let's do this. And like, let's just shorten the time span, right? Like let's just cut all the fluff. Okay, so you'll make these changes, it'll take you a couple hours. Let's meet again. And I was like, I've never done 2 meetings with the same person in one day. So then I do— I was like, oh shit, I just found out my knob wasn't even at 10, it was at 7. And like, this is what 12 feels like. And he— we did it every day for 5 days straight until the deck was amazing. We would meet twice a day with these people. By the end of it, they hated us. But like, the deck was so much— like, the whole pitch was like— the whole business was different basically by the end.

Yeah.

'Cause it was like, usually when a pitch is bad, it's like, actually the business is kind of bad. And, um, and so once I saw that, I was like, whoa, the Ali brothers, they function at like a different, Like, they have a different level 12 that, like, uh, I like to see. And I'm sharing this on the pod because there's people out there who, all the people around them, they've never seen, like, what 12 looks like. And I think you guys do this, and that's, like, my favorite thing about you guys.

That's awesome. Uh, I'm glad that that worked out. And yeah, he, like, he has this insane ability to get the most out of people and, like, uh, without them feeling like it's an ex— without him forcing it upon you. He would do this when I was running Native. He'd be like, how can you make this deodorant better than Dove and Secret? And I'm like, this guy has an $8 billion R&D budget. I've got $80. I can't do this. And he's like, here are 5 things that you can do. And even though 3 of those things will be outrageous, he'll be like, go find a new ingredient that'll work. And I'm like, what am I supposed to dig and find a new element in the periodic table of elements? But like 2 of those things will open up my mind in a way to be like, you know what? I'm not trying. I'm not focusing on the right problem here, and I gotta stop thinking about retention and customer service and all this other stuff that matters but will matter later on more. Right now, this is my problem, and forget everything else. And it's really humbling to be around that. Like whenever I'm around him, I'm always more jazzed about business and my business. And like you know, I think we've seen enough where we understand what the problems are right away. Like I'm in some of these board meetings, and I'm like. Why are we talking about, like, you know, I was in a board meeting a couple weeks ago. All we did was talk about fundraising. And I'm like, this is a waste of my time and your time. Either you're going to get this check or you're not going to get this check from this one guy. Stop begging him, like, move on. Why don't we talk about the business and see, hey, what's working and what's not? Make a better business and the dollars will follow. Stop wasting time here. And that's what, like, so much of this is experience. And I had no idea that it would be experience. And I think about this all the time. I remember when I was at P&G, My boss who ran deodorants quit and I was like, oh, he's quitting. I hope he does better. And I didn't realize all of the things that would happen to me that, you know, now we're super clear. Like he had made all of these promises about keeping Native independent and amazing and, you know, not, not like forcing his will upon the company. And he had protected me from P&G. The next guy never made any of those promises. And so he didn't really feel like he had to do any of those things. And I completely respect that. But I didn't even understand what was going to happen when the guy told me he was quitting. And now I'm like, okay, when, you know, headcount changes, this is what's going to happen. A new sheriff is going to come into town. He's going to bring in his own minions to work in the places that he likes and either fall into line or fall out, like, you know, leave the group. And I didn't understand that. And so much of this is experience. And once you go through those, go through these things, it's super helpful. And, you know, he's had, he's had so much more experience than I have. And he's been, he's a little bit older than me. And so he's had it earlier than I have. And so he's been this great sounding board for this kind of stuff.

You, uh, you tweeted something out that was great. You were like, here's my, uh, my project status. Like, uh, uh, here's like my, my, my Excel sheet I use for all my real estate deals. And it was just like status of it. It's like, you know, um, I, I don't remember what it was exactly, but it was like sent, um, reply received, waiting for, uh, paperwork, um, follow-up needed. And then there was one that was just like, I'm unsure. I don't know what the hell's going on. Like, I don't know what the fuck. I don't know what's going on. I don't know where it's at.

Like, I don't know why it's not moving.

Yeah. And I was like, that's the status that I've needed in every project I've ever done. Because my— I always have, you know, a tracker for anything I'm doing. I'm like, all right, it's either like I sent it, I'm waiting for reply, I got the reply, now I need to like reply to them, I need to analyze it, I need to sign, I need to wire the money, I need to do whatever. But like so often after like 24 hours, every whatever status it was in, it's now slipping towards the black hole of I don't know what's holding it back from just finishing now.

Yeah.

And I think that's what you guys do really well, which is actually any initiative in any project, it's like, all right, we're trying to, you know, like get more profitable. It's like, well, we have this big plan and we're doing it. And then like, surely, but slowly but surely, like a month in, it's like, what happened to that whole profitability thing? Are we doing it or are we not? Like, and it's like, yeah, everything has slipped into, I'm unsure what the fuck's going on and I need this like piercing clarity back. And so, A, I think that was an amazing little tidbit in there of like, I need that, I need that status. 'Cause most things are actually in that That bucket.

Yeah.

And I need to get them the hell out of that bucket, but I had to name it that to acknowledge what the heck was going on.

Yeah.

The second is another example of the relentlessness thing, level 12, level 14 on the volume scale. I showed your brother this deal that I wanted to invest in, and he was like, oh, this looks great. Let's do it. And I was like, okay, cool. And he's like, then every day he would text me like, what's going on with that deal? And I was like, oh yeah, no change. I emailed the guy. He said he's just He said he's finalizing stuff. He'll get back to me by Friday. It's like Tuesday. So Wednesday he's like, yo, what's up with the deal? And I'm like, uh, I think it's still the Friday thing. I haven't emailed him again. You think I should? He's like, yeah, let's email him again and tell him we love this and we want to be involved. I was like, oh, is that like a thing people do? Like, that's just— let's kind of fluff them up a bit. He's like, yeah, let's just keep it hot. And I was like, okay, cool. Then Wednesday, Thursday, he's like, I just feel like we need to do something. He's like— eventually got to the point where he's like, uh, what's the guy's bank? Let's just wire him a million dollars. And I was like, we haven't signed anything. He's like, well, once we wire him the money, he's not going to wire it back. So we're going to secure our allocation in this deal. Just let's just send him $1 million.

Yeah.

And then he'll kind of be forced to finalize things with us rather than keep us in this limbo stage. And maybe in the end he'll say, hey, I can't do the full amount. You can only do a quarter of the amount because I got all this other investor interest because we know that's what's going on here. And again, I was like, whoa, didn't know that's an option of You can just wire the guy the money. I guess that kind of makes sense. And these are very, very valuable little tidbits of—

Yeah.

Another example somebody gave us, they were like, what's your open rate on your push notifications for your app? I was like, oh, it's like 30%. I think that's pretty good. It was like 20%. I think that's really good. Industry average is like 8%. We're at 20%. I was patting myself on the back. I was feeling happy. And he's like, what do you think the theoretical max is? I was like, what? He's like, he's like, what do you think? Like theory. Okay. He's like, it's not literally 100. You're not gonna get 100% of people. Sure. 'Cause some people have uninstalled your app and they have notifications off. Like, what do you think is like, and I was like, I don't know what you mean. He's like, I think I could get 50% of people to open a push notification. Let me just like see. So he sent a push for his app and his app was like, had, it was like a social app. Like you post photos and he just sent a push notification that said, um, your Uber is arriving outside. Um, like, please, like, open this to meet it at the door, like, whatever. He, like, sent a thing that was like, your Uber is arriving with your package, swipe to, like, open it up. And he saw, like, 55% of people opened that thing. He's like, okay, that's, like, the juiciest. I have to know what's in this push notification. He's like, that's now the max. He's like, anything you want to— he's like, now we know. So actually, our 20% is not on 100, it's on, like, 55%. And so everything we do is from here. And I remember thinking, Wow, some people in Silicon Valley are like maniacs. Like, they will push the boundaries in ways that I just really haven't thought of. And every time I saw someone break like an invisible wall that I had just had up, I'm like, oh fuck, the game is so much more interesting than I realized. And like, these people play without these walls. Oh, this is awesome. Like, what, what else can I do?

It's so refreshing to see that kind of stuff when you're like, I don't know why I thought this wall existed. And now that it doesn't, it makes so much sense that it doesn't exist. Like just break through some— it required some genius to break through it. And now that he's done it, it seems so obvious. Whenever Salman and I look at like deals, we're always like, if our investments are like, you know, raising a new round, we're always like, we want to either buy the business. I want to buy the whole business, run the business, or sell my shares, all of my shares. I want some action. So I can't— look, these are the 3 options. I'll buy the whole thing. I'll run the business. You quit or take all my shares and get out of here. But I don't want nothing. I can't do nothing here. And it's a lot of fun to be involved and have that action. But it makes it so that you admire a certain group of people, certainly.

Yeah, exactly. For better or worse. And by the way, this is a good example. I admire that Uber push notification. Some people are like, how unethical and weird. And why would you do that? And if I told that, and I have done this many times, I've told my designer, hey, let's try this. And he looks at me like I'm Bernie Madoff saying, let's take all their money and run away. Like, you know, they think I'm evil when I'm actually just running an experiment. To me, this is like an awesome experiment. And it's because I admire people who did some of these different growth hacking things that are like just unusual thought experiments that I'm like, oh, you, the way you think is how I want to think. Uh, but not everybody, not everybody wants that or even thinks it's good. Like they think it's bad, which is like, but knowing that is also where you figure out your lane. You're like, oh, that's my lane. These things I think are easy and fun and good. Other people think are hard, boring, or like, are like evil. And I'm like, oh, okay, cool. I now know what differentiates me versus anybody else.

There was this one great story at, um, when I was at Native, we had bought, we had these, uh, end caps for Target, like basically like shelving that was going to sit at the end of an aisle. And they come in filled with all the deodorant. Like, you know, we ship them and all they have to do is take the box off and it's filled. And so we sent them to Target and nobody could find them. Like, you know, there were a bunch of Targets that were like, we don't have this. And so we're like, okay, what should we do? And so some P&G person was like, okay, what we have to do is we need to call up the P&G Target team in Minneapolis. They're going to call up Target. Target's going to call their distribution facility. And then we're going to go all the way back around. And we'll find out where they are because we've already shipped them. And so someone on our team was like, this doesn't make any sense. This is 15 phone calls. This is what you guys ordinarily do? And they're like, this is the only way to do it. So we Googled Target distribution facility in like New England, found their phone number, randomly cold called them and were like, hey, we work in Native. I think you've got a bunch of these end caps. A bunch of stores don't have it. We shipped them to you. Do you know where they are? And they're like, give us— 20 minutes to look in the facility. They called us back and they're like, yeah, we got them. We're going to ship them out in the next truck. And that's how we solved the problem. And like, you know, to the P&Gers, it had never occurred to directly call the facility and to Google for that number. They're like, we have to make 15 phone calls and play secretary on the way back. And like, you know, their mind was blown. And for us, we're like, this is the most obvious thing to do. Call the person where the problem lies. And it's crazy to see where those walls are. And it's so amazing to break through them and be like, This is the way things should be done moving forward.

Can I give you one of those as well? When we got acquired by Twitch, Twitch is an Amazon-owned company, so it had the Twitch bureaucracy plus the Amazon bureaucracy. There's layers, and it wasn't all bad, but there was certain things you'd run into. It's like this pocket. It's like, oh no, I'm stuck in molasses. What is that? Where did I step that got me stuck? And one of them was for a period of time, I believe there was something with the performance marketing where it's like, so how much should we be spending on getting installs? And they're like, this amount. I'm like, cool. What's the cost? They're like, well, we don't really have the tracking. I'm like, you don't have tracking? That's like, you know, the basic. They're like, well, we don't wanna install the Facebook pixel because Amazon doesn't really necessarily want, like, we have to get approval before Facebook. 'Cause when Facebook pixel's in your app, they have your data. They're kind of a competitor to Twitch and to Amazon. So like, you know, there's some sensitivity. You have to get that done. Like, so we just spent, we don't know any, we don't know the, we don't have the pixel installed. Like, you could, I don't even know you can run an ad without the pixel. And they were like, yeah.

That's right. Yeah.

And I was like, how long has it, they're like, yeah, it's been on legal's desk for like a year. And I was like, oh my God. And so I was like, oh wow. So it was like, we can't. And so my job was at that time, I was like, oh dude, we're getting our ass kicked in Brazil. And like nobody in the company is even paying attention. Like we need to, we need to like win in Brazil. And like what happened? We used to be number one and we're slipping because like mobile gaming took off and we don't do mobile gaming. So I was like, we need to win. And, um, and so it was, we built a scraper first to like see how fast the competitors were growing because nobody in the company would do anything unless you had a case. for how big the market was. So I was like, well, look at the competitors. They're like, yeah, but we don't know. And I'm like, all right, well, we'll build a scraper, which is like startups do this all the time, but at a big company it wasn't super kosher to do that. But I was like, all right, whatever. We'll do it till they tell us to stop. And the second thing was, I was like, oh, we don't have this pixel, so we can't run these ads. So I just went on a phone call with this guy who was the number one streamer in Brazil that we had just paid a bunch of money to come onto our platform. And I was like, how would you get a bunch of people to download our app? Uh, if I can't do Facebook, I can't do marketing, like paid ads. And he was like, um, he's like, oh, easy boss. And he's saying this, the translator's like, he's saying, ah, it's easy boss. You know, here's what you need to do. He's like, give me 10 iPhones. I was like, what? He's like, buy me 10 iPhones. And I was like, what for? I, you know, like, I don't know how to do that. He's like, I'm gonna give away iPhones. iPhones are like gold bars in Brazil. If I just say I'm giving away iPhones on my Twitch stream, everybody download Twitch. And, you know, sure enough, I get the— I just like kind of like bootleg away to get the guy gift cards so he could buy iPhones. And, um, he buys 10 iPhones. He does a stream where he's like, I'm giving away iPhones. He's like, I'm not giving away the first one until we have a— like, we have 10,000 people watching my stream. Go share this. Text your cousin. Text your mom. Tell them to get on this. I'm not giving it away until then. And then, uh, and he drummed up— he had— he broke— he like had— he was the number one streamer on Twitch that day. He brought in himself like Hundreds of thousands of downloads, like the biggest download spike that we had had just by giving away, like, you know, we ended up giving away like 5 iPhones. And it's like, so for $5,000, basically we did like more installs in a proven way because they were all coming directly off his link to his channel. And I was like, and people— and that's when I knew like Twitch might not be the place because like I told this story and I'm like, I feel like I slayed the dragon and I'm dragging his carcass into the boardroom. Like in the 9th floor, the top floor, the mega boardroom where all the execs sit. I feel like I'm dragging this carcass in being like, are you not entertained? And people were like, oh, that's interesting. And they just sort of moved on. And I was like, wait, we just discovered this incredible growth hack to get a bunch of downloads. We did this thing out of the ordinary. Can we get a little love here? And when I got no love, I was like, okay.

Yeah.

This is not the place for me, because if this was my company and somebody did this, I'd be like, look, I don't know if this was good strategy long-term or a bad one. It's really irrelevant. The fact that you did this, we need to tell every team in the company that like something like this is possible in your department. Like, don't get stuck in the molasses. Like, find something and try something that works. And like, these guys have tried 9 things that failed. Tell them, tell them about all 9 and then tell them the one that worked. And like, I would've gone on a roadshow for that. And that's how I knew, like, okay, what type of company do I need to be at is one that like celebrates that type of thing.

That's a pretty amazing story. And like really amazing that this guy who's in Brazil is like, I know how to get downloads from this street, like give away iPhones and get people to download it. That's brilliant of him and brilliant that you found him and like harnessed it. And we were like, fuck all this red tape. I'm gonna figure it out. That's awesome. What an incredible story.

Finally, I'm getting— finally, I'm getting the love I needed. Yeah, I've been waiting 2 years to just get the daddy, I'm proud of you, uh, son, I'm proud of you moment, but I got it now. All right, man, sorry I took you so far over the time limit. Thank you for coming on. Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me. Like a champ. Yeah, where should people find you? Your Twitter is probably the best spot, right?

Yeah, Twitter. I'm @MoizAli.

@MoizAli. All right, perfect. Thanks, man.

Perfect. Thanks, John.

Talk to you soon.

Bye.