04: How to Be a Great Conversationalist

I'm in a studio in Philadelphia and there's a big window which you can see onto the street. But I like to be in a dark room.

Yeah.

Listening to the guest.

Yeah.

So I close the shades, I dim the lights and I listen.

Is that the magic of it? Is that why it's so good?

Well, you know, it's a great, I.

Mean, you got, I mean, you can.

Get really personal when you're not being face to face sometimes, you know, it's like pure, the person's like, great going right into my ears. And also I get to look at my notes.

That was the voice of Terry Gross, who is the host and executive producer of NPR's Fresh Air, where she has interviewed thousands of people over the course of her four decade career. In the video clip you just heard, she was telling Jimmy Fallon of NBC's Tonight show how she prepares for an interview. And if you were to watch Terry on that video clip, you can see that she's nervous, but you can also hear it in her voice as well. She explains to Jimmy Fallon that she prefers to interview her guests in a private booth away from the guest. So she has focus on her interview alone, which is precisely what she wants, because she wants to focus on the, the interview and the interviewer. She doesn't want to get caught up in looking at them in the eye while she's preparing for her notes. And if you listen to her regularly, you know precisely what her sweet spot is. It's in the conversation. Terry Gross is a journalist. When she speaks to a guest, it's an interview, just as I would do on this podcast. But out in the real world, we call this just a conversation. So in this episode of the podcast, I wanted to talk about the art of the conversation. And I was inspired by the recent art article in the New York Times by reporter Jolie Kerr that was published on November 17 titled how to Talk to People. According to Terry Gross, the NPR host offers eight spicy tips for having better conversations. As soon as I saw this article on my New York Times app, I devoured it. One because I'm a fan of Terry Gross. But I also knew that this would be a great topic to share with my listeners, but give it my own Molly spin. You see, I am known as a questioner. Some people tell me it makes me quite charming. But some freeze when I start a conversation with them because they think they spill too many beans with me. And more than once I've heard someone say, I don't know how you did it, but I told you Way too much information. I don't ask questions to dig deep or to find out scoop. Most of the time I'm just curious and sometimes I may not even really care what the answer is. But I like conversation because I'm a conversationalist. I like to speak with people. Information is good to get, but conversation is better to share. Which is where we begin with Terry Gross's thoughts on how to have a good conversation. Her first tip, tell me about yourself is also known as the only icebreaker you will ever need. Isn't that the truth? And and you want to know the reason why? It's because people love to talk about themselves, but also because it's a fairly open ended question. It's not a very pointed statement such as what do you do for a living? Or what do you do for work? Because most people assume it means work and many people have different definitions of work. The beauty in that opening of Tell Me About Yourself is that it allows you to start a conversation without the fear that you're going to inadvertently make someone feel uncomfortable or self conscious. Posing it as a broad question lets people lead you to who they actually are and how they actually feel at the moment. As an interviewer, Terry Gross's goal is to find out how her subject became who they are. So as a conversationalist, you should make that goal yours as well. It's all about making someone feel comfortable. And if someone is comfortable, they're going to share more information. Spicy tip number two. The secret to being a good conversationalist is curiosity. Terry Gross points out that interviewing a person and having a conversation with them are two different things, but a common thread that could help you to excel at both. So according to Terry Gross, being genuinely curious and wanting to hear what the other person is telling you is a great quality to have as a conversationalist. So curiosity may have killed the cat, but the lack of it, it kills the conversation. You know when you are speaking with someone, they never ask you a question. This is a general peeve of mine, but also a tell. It tells me that they are not interested in having a conversation. They are only interested in talking about themselves. Gut check time. Do you only speak to people about yourself? Do you ask questions only to give your answer as soon as the other person has finished speaking? If that's the case, then that's not a conversation. When people ask me a question in a conversation, I know they are listening. And I also highly value people that ask me questions because it shows that they care. And if this is just in A general conversation or in a work conversation. In my work as a consultant, I know if a client is asking me questions, it means they want to learn or they want to keep talking. These are both very, very good things. So number two is be curious. Spicy tip number three is be funny if you can. Funny is good, but not everyone is funny. We all know that. And I like how Terry Gross puts it. A good conversationalist is somebody who is fun to talk to. She said, now me, I love funny people. Not goofy people or people who think they're funny. And I'm dating myself here, but people. The. I call them the Shecky green types. Those are the people that when they're speaking to you, they're speaking to you like a comedian would speak to you. Like they're on stage and you expect them to have a microphone and stand in front of a brick wall. It seems like every line is a one liner. You know the type. But give me a witty person, someone with a dry sense of humor, someone who's snarky but with excellent timing. Not too mean, but just clever. I like a little outrageous sometimes, but when they. When to stop. If you are any of the above, then I am your ideal audience because I love to laugh. I really do. I love when people make me laugh. Terry Gross says, if you can't be funny, being mentally organized, reasonably concise and energetic will go a long way in impressing people. And I think that is a great tip. So again, if you're funny, use it. But if you know that you're not particularly funny or witty, you want to laugh and you want to enjoy yourself. And that's a part of being funny as well. Spicy tip number four, Preparation is key. Now here's a spicy tip about me. This tip is my Achilles heel. If I am not prepared when I speak, then I am miserable when I'm speaking. I do not like doing it. The lack of preparation is the death of me. I still have nightmares over an unprepared bridesmaids toast that I gave years ago with a drink in my hand. And I kept talking and talking and talking and I thought I was so funny. And then I remember the look that a friend gave me, like, what are you talking about? So my tip here is never give a speech with a drink in your hand. Drinks are for toasts only. So a toast is one or two sentences, then you are out. But this ties into preparation. And I know when I gave you that example of the bad toast, I'm sure many of you thought the same thing. How Many weddings have you sat through where the speech was unprepared. So yes, I gave my own bad speech, but I have heard plenty of unprepared speeches. Terry Gross says preparation helps to organize your thoughts beforehand by thinking about the things you expect you'll be asked and then reflecting on how you might answer. I can always tell when someone is prepared when they speak, where preparation can be especially helpful when we're talking about the idea of conversations in a business setting or a conference. Are you speaking to a big wheel, a future client, the keynote speaker? Will it reflect on your job? If you're not prepared and you speak from the hip, you could get yourself in trouble. And it's also difficult to have a conversation. Also if you're in a job interview or if you're on a date. If you are, then you know your boundaries. When you're meeting someone for the first time in a social setting, preparation here is also known as stalking them online. Preparing what you are going to say, whether they are formal remarks or conversational remarks with someone that you know you're going to meet. That makes for a very, very good tip. Spicy tip number five Take control by pivoting to something you want to talk about. Ah, the pivot. That is such a public relations term. I use the term pivot a lot in my trainings and workshops that I do. The PR definition of a pivot is a turn or a 45 degree angle to an adjacent topic that points back to you. So in the public relations frame of reference, it's pointing back to your key message. So if a reporter were to ask you a question and they kind of veer off into an area that you don't want to talk about, you can pivot the conversation back to what you want to talk about. So that's something that I would counsel a client on. But in a conversation or an interview, it can be used as a tactic to get someone who is unstable stuck or to jar their memory. If they are stuck in a place where it brings a conversation to a dead halt, a pivot can help the conversation come back to life. Gross offered help for how to handle a job interview that's going badly. If somebody is asking you questions and you don't feel that you have a strong response for it, you can say, let me share an experience. And from there you can share an experience that points to your talents and areas where you excel. See how that works? That's pretty clever. A pivot, whether it's a media interview, a job interview, or in a conversation, is Simply a way to point the conversation back to your strengths. And maybe if it's just a fun conversation, maybe your strength is that you're funny. From the previous tip, when you pivot back to yourself for the purpose of just speaking, well, then it's boring. But a pivot back to yourself to draw the conversation from someone else, that's a good thing. If you can get your point across or mention something good about yourself, even better. And if you're on a date, that's even better. So that is our spicy tip number five. Next, spicy tip number six. Dodge questions if you must. Now, Terry Gross does not want to dodge questions because she is a reporter and reporters don't like to do that. But she does admit that following this tip is in her self interest to tutor people on how to dodge a question. But when the reporter pressed her, she did suggest that using honesty when trying to dodge a question helps. And you can go for the gusto and say, I don't want to answer that, or you can hedge a question that you don't want to answer with, you know what, I'm having a difficult time thinking of a specific answer to that, or I'm afraid by answering that that I'm going to hurt somebody's feelings. And I really don't want to do that. But there are definitely times when you don't want to divulge too much information. Just because someone asked you the question doesn't mean you have to answer it. Spicy tip number seven. Pay attention to body language. This next tip is right in my wheelhouse because I talk about body language in a lot of my workshops and in my talks. And the reason why is because body language is a very integral part of confident communications. If your body language mirrors or matches the message that you're trying to convey, it can make that message that more powerful. But if your body language is incongruent with your message, it can cause for a very muddled message or maybe even a dishonest message. So when I work with my clients in media relations training, I make a point of giving them options for body language when they're messaging so the optics are in sync. Now, when Terry Gross talks about body language, she says that she wishes that everyone would pay attention to other people's body language. She says, try to pick up on when you've kind of lost someone's attention. That's pretty valuable if you think about it. I don't know if you're like me, but I am always looking for that moment where I think I've lost someone because then I need to come up with a tactic to bring them right back in. So that way you can avoid boring, you know, your fellow conversationalist. If they're not with you anymore, then you need to either pivot or come up with a new topic. Or you can just end the conversation. If the person engaging you is a ceaseless chatterer and they just won't take the hint to your body language in return. Again, that could be someone that is more concerned about having a conversation just about themselves. So pay attention to someone else's body language, but also pay attention to the body language that you are communicating as well. And are you doing it deliberately? And if you are doing it deliberately, is it for the right reason? Is it because you want to rush someone through? Or is it because you want to tell them how interested you are? But the spicy tip is not how you use it, but just being aware of it. Because maybe you're like me. Do you notice that so many people that you talk to, they're just not aware of it? So that's a great tip. And our last spicy tip from Terry Gross, Number eight, when to push back and when not to. Now, this tip is less of a conversational tip than it is a word of caution. When you are having a conversation with someone, especially about a touchy subject like, oh, I don't know, politics. This is the perfect time to utilize this type of tip, because it's more of a word of caution. And it can help you when you are in a conversation that is more professional as opposed to your girlfriends or just hanging out with your family. So Terry Gross prefers to interview artists and creators over politicians. She approaches an interview with a politician as a duty. If she asks a question, she feels it's the duty of the politician to answer it. And if they don't answer the question, she will keep asking it over and over and over again because she feels the politician owes us, the public, an answer. Now, when she's speaking to someone that works in the arts or in the culture, she gives them a little more leeway when it comes to setting parameters about personal information or personal conversation. She tells them that if she gets too personal, that they should just let her know and she'll move on. If it's something that's too personal that they don't want out in the public, she wants the liberty to ask them anything with the understanding that she will edit out the information or she won't use it. However, in the real world, we don't have that luxury. If you say something, it can't be unsaid, I guess, unless it's telepathic. But once it's out there, it's out there for good, especially if it's on video and someone posts it to social media. But when is it okay to push back and when is it not to? In general, I look at the pushback as necessary when someone crosses a line. And also it depends on your audience. If anyone is a parent of a teenager. Oh my gosh. Pushback is almost every single conversation. You're going to get it from them and you're going to give it in return. But let's say you are in a conversation with adults and it's a business conversation, or it's colleagues, or you're with other adults and you may not know everyone really well in the room. When is it okay to push back? Personally, I feel it's okay to push back when someone has crossed a line or pushed a boundary, especially when we talk about politics. That can bleed into areas that get very un PC very quickly. So in my opinion, it's okay to push back if someone has made a gross assumption about you or someone close to you because you're making a stand as you're doing it. However, if someone is just droning on and on about something political or something that you don't necessarily care about, or you may not have or share the same view, then it's okay to let it go. Because in this day and age of heightened conversation, whether it's online or in person, people can get into really sticky areas real quick. And as a rule of thumb myself is I just stay out of it. I do not talk politics. I do not talk about opinions. Especially when I know that half the people in the room or half the people in the conversation are going to have different ones from mine or different ones from other people in the conversation. So the safest bet is just to stay clear of it and just keep pivoting. And there you have it. How to talk to people, according to NPR's Terry Gross, as told in the New York Times. And that brings us to the end of our conversation, albeit it was a one way conversation. But we can continue this conversation online. You can comment on my website@mollymcpherson.com just look for episode 4 under the podcast section of the website. Or write to me on social media. You can find me on Twitter, LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram. And before I let you go, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Thanks again for tuning in. I cannot wait to continue the conversation next time.