116: What Executives Should Know About Speaking Out on Politics and Social Issues

When an event occurs that impacts a.

Nation, something's wrong here. Something's really wrong. Can't have happened. And we fight. We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore. We're in.

We're in.

We're in. We're in. We're seeing protesters overcome the police.

The police are now running back into the Capitol building. We have cheers from the protesters. Usa. Usa. When the rioters rampage through the Capitol, Capitol communities of color couldn't help but notice something.

Suppose this had been a Black Lives Matter rally. Suppose this had been people of color storming the Capitol.

Executives from businesses large and small are left wondering, how do we respond when we don't know what to say? Communicators are left with the task of drafting a message in response to a social or political issue that not only shapes the reputation of the company, but of the leader itself. Staying quiet about any issue that impacts the country may no longer be an option. Speaking out, however, can lead to an unpredictable outcome. On the podcast this week, what executives should know about speaking out on political and social issues. Welcome to the Confident Communications podcast, where I help communicators find the right response at the right time and deliver it in the right place. Last week's events at the United States Capitol left a lot of questions for a lot of people, with more information continuing to emerge about how rioters stampeded into the building, who the people were and what were their true intentions left in the wake of presidency in turmoil. What also isn't entirely clear is how leaders should respond when the country is left with the gut punch from the weak, but also with an eye trained on the people who are and who are not responding about the siege on the Capitol. In today's fractured environment, executives may find themselves under pressure by their staff to speak out on an issue. If you do, how can you predict the reception of your message? Will it ring hollow or be taken out of context? Could you be alienating a large part of your audience or customers? Staying quiet, however, may have its own ramifications and may no longer be an option. Here today, to help me answer that question is a former presidential advanceman who has insider knowledge about shaping the issues from behind the scenes to now working as a strategic advisor, helping clients shape their message to the public. Anthony Hayes, founder of the Hays Initiative, has been working in PR and communications in New York City with experience helping clients such as the Port Authority of New York and New Jersey during Superstorm Sandy and Bridgegate, oh to be a fly on the wall during that gig of his. He has crisis communications experience strategy, and also experience helping his clients manage national media response. He's also worked on one of the most contentious presidential campaigns in American history. So you can see why Anthony is a perfectly timed guest to discuss what executives should know about speaking out and social issues. The timing of this planned interview for this week brought to a rather unplanned discussion for me and my guests because my guest, Anthony Hayes, was scheduled to speak with me, really more about presidential matters leading up into the inauguration because he's a longtime PR political operative and he has so much experience. But with the events of what happened yesterday, the day of this recording at the United States Capitol, I had to move this interview up because I felt the listeners needed to hear from you. Anthony. Anthony, welcome to the podcast.

Hey, thanks for having me.

I have to start here. You have more than you know. You have many years in communications, crisis management, and easy on the years. Hey, Anthony. Mine's even longer. But what interests me the most right now is because you had a seat like a literal backseat in presidential politics by working with Hillary Clinton in the Hillary for America, you were part of the national advance team. So my first question to you, you and I are recording this on Thursday, January 7th. I'm sure by the time this, this episode airs on Tuesday, though, everything will be upside down. I mean, who even knows? But, Anthony, tell me, just first blush, what do you think about what happened?

I mean, it's a challenging thing to, you know, listen, it's anybody who's worked on a campaign or a presidential in particular, and let's say you're on the losing end. Let's not put in 2016, but just, you know, it's. It's a unique experience because you have spent so much of your life and so much energy and so much time fighting for something that you believe in. And, like, while obviously I believe and adore Secretary Clinton, you know, the reality is I believed in what we were fighting for. And I think that when you lose, and certainly in 2016, when we lost, I think part of why there was so much devastation, if you rewind to election day in 2016 and the day that the secretary gave her concession speech, there was a lot of devastation that everyone felt, and in large part because I think everyone had their concerns about, is Donald Trump up for the job? Like, can he actually be president? And I think the reason that so many people felt crazed and what led to yesterday, which was obviously the assault on the Capitol, which I believe was the first time since 1821 that the Capitol had been breached. So to see this today while we're talking and to sort of think about this now through that lens of being with the secretary on election day, putting her in the car, and then seeing the four years that sort of came after that, I have to say there's a little bit of me that is not surprised in the least that yesterday happened.

You, you in your on your Twitter account at Anthony J. Hayes, you were tweeting yesterday and a tweet you mentioned that you that you wrote, he at real Donald Trump is not just unprepared, he is temperamentally unfit to hold an. That requires knowledge, stability and immense responsibility. That's a quote from Hillary. Oh, my gosh, why am I stumbling on Hillary's name? Hillary Clinton. I know.

Yeah.

Hillary Clinton in 2016. Anthony, tell me, how close were you to Secretary Clinton?

Well, you know, I had the great fortune of being on the advanced team. And so for those that don't understand advance, let me just sort of give a quick overview of that. So the secretary had her senior team and the great people like Nick Merrill, Huma Abedine, all names that everybody's very familiar.

Now, let me just say now, if I had time, I would go down to a whole other rabbit hole. I would want to know about Huma. I would want to know about Anthony Weiner. There's see you, Anthony, have probably so many stories that we could unpack, but I will focus on the story of the moment and really what was going on, you know, during that advanced team. I mean, certainly you had an inside. You had an inside know, you know, firsthand knowledge of what was happening, but also about how Secretary Clinton almost predicted what was going to happen at the Capitol. What do you think about that?

Yeah, I think that, you know, again, I worked with such an enormous, enormously talented team, and I think it started from the top with the boss, which of course is Secretary Clinton. And so, you know, the things that I tweeted yesterday were her words. Right. And so that's why it was easy to work for a leader who is so has the foresight to sort of see where things will go. Whether she could have predicted what happened yesterday at the Capitol, who knows? But I think she understood how dangerous Donald Trump's rhetoric in particular was. And since this is about communication and about words and how we do that, you know, I think the secretary, one of the things that I admire most about her and would have the pleasure of getting to see because, you know, the advance team arrives, for instance, just to give everybody a little background. So advance they call and they say, hey, can you go to Iowa? We want to have the secretary come and do several things. And you really are the person that hits the ground two or three days, maybe a week before, and really sort of prep her arrival, make sure that all the, all of the, she's going to see all the right people. And, you know, needless to say, Secretary Clinton wants to make the most of every second. So we were very, very busy. And so it was always fascinating to me as a communications professional in particular, when she would sit down and sort of land and how, you know, those. While we were working on logistics and making sure that things were set up and the presidential stagecraft was done correctly. But beyond that, watching her step into that and as a communicator and as a world leader, to choose her words so carefully, so cautious, to make sure that she's communicating in a way that is, that is meaningful, thoughtful and inclusive.

Yes. And understanding that communications doesn't really have boundaries. It's not just Republicans or Democrats who communicate. Everyone communicates to everyone. So your point of view, even though you worked for a Democratic senator and also presidential candidate and first lady of a president, former President Bill Clinton, you can look at communications how I do, almost apolitically. It's just the, the power of it. And, and you have that experience up front and up close of seeing the power of a candidate and how they react to people in the public and, and how, and how they, you know, build their base. So certainly Donald Trump has his, and Hillary Clinton certainly had hers. But what you and I are going to talk about today really is just such a byproduct of what happened on the Capitol grounds there. It's what leaders should know about speaking up on political issues, social issues, but also for their communicators, because they're the ones who are crafting the message, they're crafting the response. But the leaders are the ones who are, you know, putting their necks out on the line. So I wanted to ask you, you know, your advice. I mean, you've certainly had a lot of experience, too. You worked, you know, at the Port Authority as well in New York. I mean, talk about, you're in the mix of it, so you have a lot of experience there. But, Anthony, share with me what are some of the key considerations when a leader or a CEO does choose to speak out? Like what. What would be a reason to speak out or not to speak out?

Well, I think it's important to look at how we now expect our leaders, whether it's an organization or a company, to speak out. There is an expectation, you know, that silence is not tolerated. That can be a blessing and a curse. Right. And I think there's lots of reasons. So I think that expectation comes not just from consumers and people who engage with said product or organization. It's employees. Because employees want to work in a place where they feel valued, seen, and that they understand that, you know, they're working for an organization that recognizes that these political and social issues impact their lives.

So you're saying when you talk about stakeholders. So number one, it's when you are talking, when you are taking a stand and coming out to speak or not to speak is your first audience, your internal stakeholders in your opinion, or just an important audience?

I think it's a critical audience when you're talking about an organization because. Right. They need to feel proud of where they work. They need to feel proud to walk through the doors. And they want to understand, again, people want a holistic, like approach to sort of life now with their work. Right. Like, we really have focused a lot on, on rebalancing that. And so employees need to know that their leader sees them and hears them and understands these big things are happening.

What is the risk if a leader does not speak out to the employee?

Well, I think one of the big problems is that either a, they could feel, especially if the social or political moment that's happening, you know, right now. So, for instance, to use Black Lives Matter as a real example, black employees may have thought, do they not know that there are black employees at this organization? And so the risk is not acknowledging sort of employees as a whole person. Right. You just sort of use them as a tool. And the reality is, I think that if you don't speak out, I think at minimum they're going to feel they're not important enough to deserve a comment, number one, that the current political or social moment doesn't deserve a comment, even though probably a great many people feel like it does. And then the other thing can be morale, which can lead to lack of productivity, which can lead to a whole source of acting out things. They come in late, they may feel less inspired. You know, you really have to understand when you're talking about internal communication to employees, I think it's easy to just sort of be like, put it in the newsletter and it'll be fine. And it's like, maybe that's right.

At a minimum. At a minimum.

But that's a tool. And maybe that is the right tool. Or maybe it's not the right tool because, you know, I think you and I have talked about this before we got on this call. We should have had a quick catch up. And ultimately, like someone that I have admired through a lot of this past year and four years has really been. And again, I want to repeat to everybody who's listening, I don't have a contract here, so I have no reason to say anything's about to say. But Jamie Dimon at JPMorgan Chase is really somebody who as a leader, has understood, in my opinion, these moments and spoke out both for his employees and both for the concept of what is good for the economy and business. And so, you know, Jamie Dimon put out an internal communication to his employees before the 2020 election. And that to me is unheard of. You know, and if I were his, you know, I don't know if this is true, but if I were his comms team, I would sure certainly make sure a reporter found that. Because, by the way, you know, I read something recently where they represent, I think, over half of the households in the United States of America and 400 of the Fortune 500. So when JP Morgan Jamie Dimon speaks, everyone listens. Yeah. Well, it has a global financial impact, of course.

Of course. So employees being number one. And I'm so happy you said that because a tune that I changed in 2020 for me, when I would talk about important stakeholders, when I was speaking in March of 2020 in New Orleans, I was talking about the importance of the consumer, your audience, your member, your customer, whatever it is. A month later, I shifted it to your internal stakeholder. I felt that that was the first stakeholder that you needed to think about in your communications. So let me. I don't want to convolute this at all, but I do want to ask this. So, number one, we're talking about their employees, we're talking about issues. We mentioned what happened in the Capitol. But you also mentioned BLM 2020 was the year where I think more leaders than ever sat down and said, should we be talking about this? What do you think is the baseline? When does someone have to speak out as opposed to when they should speak out?

Well, I think one of the most important things that I always like to look at is especially when you're talking about companies. Right. So let's just sort of, you know, the Warby Parkers or JPMorgan Chase, as I've already used as an example, or you're a company that you provide something so to me, I think it's a. When things, when you have opportunities that present themselves that may be perceived as disruptions, whether that is, you know, obviously the political environment that we experienced yesterday at the Capitol or whether finally, gratefully, there's real, real conversations happening and I hope, change, most of all, systemic change around Black Lives Matter. I think you have to approach speaking out as an organization based on who you already are. And so I think it's very important to not try to be what you are not. And I'm a big believer in get your house in order before you speak. Because if you are not, for instance, to stay with Black Lives Matter. And I think we saw many examples of this. Everybody can smell empty words. We really are a bit, I don't know if we're fully past it, but people are not willing to indulge sort of what may have worked as, quote, spin back in the day, right? Where it's like, oh, we believe that everything is important. It's like that sort of very broad. People are wanting not necessarily for you to be something that you're not, but they are wanting what you are, what you are to be authentic.

Okay, so that's moving into your number two in terms of how to approach, if you speak out on political or social issues, you talked about get your house in order, get prepared, find out who you are. When you mentioned a Warby Parker, their audience, certainly they're going to have their one ideal customer. You know, it's going to be a 36 year old male who lives in New York City. You know, whatever it is, they have all their Personas. But there are some organizations out there, some companies, certainly clients of mine, who aren't as like universal. They might just have local communities, they may be rural, they may be have a heavier conservative area. So a BLM issue, a Juneteenth issue, are they expected to speak out on those social issues as well, or do they get a pass? Because perhaps the majority of their audience is that isn't something they necessarily would want or need or expect from your company.

Yeah, it is a very complicated thing to thread. And for me, as a member of the LGBTQ community, I am a fan of when people understand whether you're in a conservative place or it may not be sort of your typical, quote, social issue. But when you understand, I just think as an organization or someone who is offering something to the world and you want people to engage with you, I think it's important that you make it clear that you're open for everybody. Now listen There are clearly, throughout time, people that are not. Those aren't the people I'm talking about. Right. Like, the people who are just fully like, we don't like LGBTQ people or we don't like. That's not. That's just. I don't have any words for that and just. I don't quite know what to say. And I think the world will take care of that on its own because I think we're moving toward real inclusive, like, engagement with the. With consumers in particular. But what I'm talking about is, like, people who understand that, you know, my favorite is, like, a Dolly Parton. Dolly Parton has, like, the most remarkable way of communicating that she supports and loves everybody and that it's difficult and that it's complex, but we should be respectful. And so I think finding the way to thread that needle for organizations that may be in a more conservative place or may not be, but I think what the biggest piece is is being respectful and communicating respectfully, because I think if you do that, people see that.

But, Anthony, you are. You grew up in Oklahoma, correct?

I grew up in Oklahoma, yeah.

And now you live in New York City. So New York City, for someone who. You have an LGBTQ owned business.

Yes.

Many of your. I would say your friends, your colleagues, your world, you know, your. Your. You know, you're enmeshed in it. Let's say you go back home to Oklahoma. Do you expect to see that same openness? I mean, certainly you may not, but do you notice the absence of it? Or are you saying it's okay? You do notice it. How does that make you feel?

Well, it is. It's. It continues to be isolating. And so I think what happens is, you know, it. It. You notice it, because there's no reason for it to be missing.

Okay, I'm going to be very specific now. So let's say it's June. June 2020, and June 2020. We had two iconic moments for minorities. We had the Supreme Court ruling. And then I don't even. I'm my. I'm conflating all my dates, but we had the Supreme Court ruling that. That came out with regards to LGBTQ and. And work. And also you had blm or on the heels, I think. Right. Of George Floyd. So you had the Black Lives Matter movement. More brands completely embraced, you know, the BLM movement. And I felt that the LGBTQ movement kind of got lost in there a bit. Right. Because it's their. It's Pride Month. Right. Like, there's so much going on but then, since then, do you notice then the absence of it, if some companies or brands might spend a lot of time on Juneteenth, for example, like, if you're a leader, wondering, huh, well, should we do something else? Because, you know, we may have LGBTQ employees. Like, so how does someone work around that?

Yeah, listen, I think. I don't think one cancels out the other. I think that's the most important thing for everybody to realize is that recognizing Black Lives Matter and lgbtq, they're not mutually exclusive. You. You don't have to pick. You know, you also.

Some did, though.

Well, I'm sure some did. And I think that. I think the ones that are are really starting to sort of get called out on it and get called out on it pretty aggressively.

Okay.

So, like, you know, for instance, I am a big believer in, you know, as somebody who's been in the community my whole adult life and also worked for the Human Rights Campaign, which is the nation's largest LGBTQ advocacy organization. You know, I think Pride Month is wonderful. I think what corporations have done to embrace the LGBT consumer is great. And it also sometimes feels performative where, you know, of course, you put up a Pride flag. That should be the absolute bare minimum that you've done, you know, But I guess now really sort of in. One of the things that you saw during Pride is you saw people asking, from an LGBTQ perspective and at least within that community, about sort of, how are we dealing inside the LGBT community with our systemic sort of racism that exists in the community. So there's the work that we're talking about, and sort of what makes it so complicated for business leaders and everyone to communicate about this is. It is incredibly complex. It is incredibly layered. And so what is important is, in my opinion, is that you focus on being inclusive and moving toward action that demonstrates that LGBTQ people have a seat at the table in your company, that in your board, you have diversity, there's work. You don't necessarily. Sometimes talk is cheap. And I think people are really seeing the companies that are like, well, wait a minute, why can't you guys sort of, like, reflect this over here, who really have embraced it, and they do have a female CEO. And, you know, I think there's actions people can take. Actions are communications. Oh.

And so I like that a lot, because, of course, if you run an Apple Store, you're Warby Parker. It's. It's easy to put. To say, we support, you know, Pride Month. It's so easy. But what if you own A credit union in Oklahoma, you know, are you putting out a pride flag, you know, in June, much less June, any other month? Are you even discussing in any of your collateral whatsoever? But I like what you said about the actions. It's also what you do. Okay, so we've talked about employees, we talked about, you know, planning and who you should be speaking to in your audiences. And again, it's, you know, a lot of it too is internal. What about the last piece? When it comes to speaking out on political or social issues, I think it.

Is so important that you demonstrate hope and a positive way forward. Because I think one of the challenges, most leaders like to communicate and lead from experience. And part of what 2020 was so difficult about is we didn't really have a lot of experience around everybody home but keep working and school your children and black lives matter. And we need to do that in a meaningful like. So leaders were struggling because they don't have experience. And I think sometimes communicating that you do see hope in where we are and you see hope in the fact that there is so much dialogue around whatever is happening. But I think it's critical that it not feel defensive, reactive, but in fact it sort of look at what you're offering and who you are as an organization as a hopeful place and a forward thinking place. And that doesn't necessarily. That can take on many forms. But I think it's sort of in the, your communication team, whoever's writing your speech or writing your statement that you're going to release to the press, they need to think about, like, when this is done, how are they going to feel hopeful? Are they going to feel like, well, they checked the bot, like, are you just checking a box or are you being hopeful? And I really think people are looking for that, especially, I mean, good lord, after what we've experienced and how, you know, what we experienced yesterday at the Capitol, I think everybody's wanting that.

And it also allows a place for the gap, which is if a leader doesn't have the answer, they don't know what to do or they don't know what the right answer is.

You just acknowledge that we don't know and are going to be dealing with, you know, we're going to approach this the same way that we approach everything. We don't know. We're going to be thoughtful, we're going to, we're going to move to action when we do know. But, you know, I think that it is all too often they, everybody wants to have this like silver bullet around some communication and the reality is sometimes there's not. And people respect when someone comes out and says, we don't know all the facts yet. We're gonna find them out. Once we find them out, we're gonna communicate them with you. I mean, you've been, you worked at fema. You know that it's like sometimes you don't know where you are and you have to pause. And that's why I say take a beat, slow down. Yes, everybody's wanting you to comment. Yes, everybody's wanting you to be out there. And yes, you probably should.

So with all your experience, I have to ask you this. So yesterday there's two examples of organ of businesses who spoke out, okay. About what happened at the Capitol. I'm going to give you two examples and I want to get your opinion and then we'll come back for the big, the big thing, the last big thing that you're going to leave us with. We one that happened that it was a press release that came out on January 5th, and it was from the CEO of the company Rave Restaurant Group, that owned Pizza in. I don't know if you saw this or not, but Pizza in, known as America's hometown pizza place, said that the CEO came out and started weighing in on democracy, the voting process and what. And, and how we have to restore the integrity of our system. You and I would not know the CEO of Pizza Inn if we stumbled across him on the street, but I think we know who he is. What do you think about a large hometown pizza place coming out with a statement which by the way, has been pulled, but what do you think about that? Like, if you worked for the CEO, what would you do? What is your response to this?

Well, you know, there's several things. You know, one, why does he feel the need to. Would be my question to him if I was sitting in front of him, like, what, what do you feel that is, what do you feel you're adding to the dialogue? And how does this benefit the people who engage with you daily? Like, are you hearing, you know, so he, he obviously answered that and decided to weigh in or he decided to use his platform. And so I think that you really do have to ask that question of, like, why do you feel like you are needed to weigh in here? Now, I don't know if you saw this, but 170 business leaders sent a letter to Congress or basically a short letter that got posted. Yeah. So the idea that we're in a time. This is the point of, like, why it's so complicated and why sort of you really have to, like, think before you speak. They felt so strongly that Congress was going to make a mistake that was going to impact the business world by not certifying the election of Joe Biden and Kamala Harris that they, they. I don't know a time where in my lifetime, at least, I have never seen 170 business leaders sign on to a letter to Congress, first of all, urging them to do what we've done for hundreds of years. So jaw dropping. And for this pizza, the pizza and CEO, honestly, I think that we're in a place where people are speaking up. And the thing that I would have encouraged him to do or have thought about is make sure it is adding value. Value to your employees and value to your customers.

Anthony, of all the, of all the gold nuggets you have dropped in this interview, that is one of my favorite that you said. What you would say is, why do you need to weigh in? What value is this statement bringing out to the table? That's fantastic. Okay, then let me ask you your opinion on this last one. Burger King. Did you happen to see the tweet by Burger King? They came out. It just happened two hours ago. So it's fine if you don't know, if you don't sit on Twitter all day like I do. But Burger, one of those fast food chains, you know, fast food chains do an amazing job on social media. They tweeted out with the old, in with a new classic hashtag, new profile pic. What do you think of that tweet?

I mean, on some level, like, right. Like we live in a meme world, right? And I'm the biggest consumer, so I really am being totally in a glass house. So all that noise is glass shattering around me. But I, I really, I think it's funny. I think it is, by the way. I also think it's hopeful, which I said earlier that I think you need to be. We need to move forward. I think based on what everyone has experienced certainly in the last year, I think for the last four years. But that's a whole other topic. And another podcast. But, like, people want hopeful and they want to move forward. I think they did that in a funny way. I think it speaks to their voice. I think it sounds like them. You know, I think it. And, and I don't think it. I also don't think it's really disrespectful. Right.

So Anthony Hayes, I just, I just ran it through the Anthony Hayes filter to check. Does the Burger King tweet Work. So, one, you're thinking about your employees. What would your employees think of this? I would think many Burger King employees would applaud this tweet. This meme. Like tweet, which I love. The second is, who is your audience? Who are you speaking to? Take a beat before you speak. It was a Pl. You know, this came out a day after they didn't do it the day of. I think it would have been crass if they did it yesterday afternoon. Beats right. And three, just like you said, it is hope and positive for the future. They're just saying, moving on. It's not a direct day. It's not direct. Shade. Well, we'll call it shade. It's not direct Dig. But it's shade.

But it's okay.

Yeah, but it. But that runs through the filter, as opposed to the pizza in press release, which certainly does it. Oh, my gosh.

And really quick. The one thing I would add is what it doesn't do to your point of the timing of it is I think people notice when you're taking advantage of a Crisis.

Newsjacking. Yes.

100%. I love that. News jacking.

Yes. And they and Burger King, in my opinion, almost timed it, you know, almost to the minute, because it's not just jumping in in the first fray of what happened, but it's the timing of the conversation of is someone going to mention the 25th amendment or we're going to go down the 25th amendment route. Are we talking about impeach, though, where there's not enough time for an impeachment? But still they're weighing in with an opinion. They're saying it's time to go. So that. Yeah, perfectly time. Oh, my gosh. But speaking of things not being perfectly timed, I could talk to you for a day. Oh, my gosh. I. I have to have you back on the podcast at some point because I think there's so many things that we. That we could speak about. But, Anthony, what's the big thing? Like the takeaway from not just the episode today, but over these last 48 hours? And again, because this is airing on Tuesday, we're going to say, over the course of the past, you know, four or five days, what would be a big takeaway for a leader from a small to midsize business who's really grappling and struggling with this idea of how do you manage a crisis? What do I say? Do I weigh in on these social and political issues? What would you say?

So I'll give you three quick things.

Yep.

2021 will be all about crisis communication.

Oh, hallelujah, brother. About that. What about it? Meaning it's always going to happen or you should be prepared.

No, you. Yeah. So ultimately, I believe everybody needs to revisit or write a crisis, communicate a crisis communication management plan. And if you haven't written one, boy, what is wrong with you? But I would use 2020 as like examples of what didn't go well. And then most of all, I would encourage people to determine how does the disruption, how can this disruption that's happening, whether it's, you know, social justice, whether it's, you know, Covid. No matter what the disruption is that you're being asked to speak out on that you normally wouldn't. How can you use it as an opportunity to communicate, to accelerate or to cut things that aren't working?

So PR people know that like that's really. That. That baked in gold piece of, you know, just that gold piece of knowledge that we know is. It's almost like Lord of the Rings, like, you know, precious in the middle of it, which is there's always an opportunity from a crisis, whether it's someone else's or yours. There's always an opportunity to come out of that. That's hope.

Hope, right. You have to find hope.

Well, Anthony, I hope that you will join me again on this podcast because I really enjoyed speaking with you. So if you want more information about Anthony Hayes, you can find him. I love that you have the Hayes Initiative as far as branding names go. Anthony, I love that. So you can find them at the Hayes Initiative and certainly on Twitter as well. Anthony, thank you.

Thank you so much. This was great.

My thanks to Anthony for joining me on the podcast this week to learn more about Anthony, about crisis management and reputation management. He has a training website called PR Tips from a Pro. It's filled with lessons, advice and information for how to work with Anthony and his team at the Hays Initiative. You can find the link in the show notes. Remember, you can follow. Follow me on Twitter where I extend the learning from the episode by tweeting response tips based on the week's topic. Look for my take of leadership communications. I'm sure there will be plenty of examples of leaders who nail their response this week or who fail at it. Look for responsetip on Twitter. Molly McPherson. That's all for this week. We'll see you again next week. Bye for now.