117: Damage Control: How to Recover from a Tainted Reputation with Warren Weeks

The poet Oliver Wendell Holmes said, how many people live on the reputation of the reputation they might have made? It's been quite the week for reputations made and destroyed, wouldn't you say? Actor Armie Hammer is backing out of an upcoming blockbuster film, Shotgun Wedding, starring J.

Lo.

The move comes days after unverified messages he purportedly sent to a now ex were made public. A North Texas woman facing federal charges in connection with laughing last week's riot at the US Capitol has been taken into custody. Investigators say Jenna Ryan livestreamed herself entering the U.S. capitol. Premier Doug Ford is among the leaders facing growing pressure to curb the crisis today. His finance minister stepped down hours after arriving home from a Caribbean vacation that went against pandemic guidelines. The fact of the matter is we're in a time where so much of our communications are happening at a rapid place. It's all happening online. The risk to a reputation is greater than ever. So is the impact from the damage. This week on the podcast, when a crisis poses a threat to reputation, when someone takes a direct hit, what can they do when the recovery seems insurmountable? Welcome to the Confident Communications podcast where I help communicators deliver the right message at the right time and on the right channel. And this episode, what can happen when it all goes bad? A person's reputation is a resource, an intangible one. A favorable reputation leads to fortune, or it can in money, in wealth, in other ways. People will invest in you. Employees will follow you. People will want to buy from you. An unfavorable reputation can cost you and it can cost you big. There were a number of events from the past few weeks that jumped out on my newsfeed and almost said to me, molly, now what would you do about this issue if this person hired you to clean up this mess? I even posed a question on Twitter when I read the story about the actor Armie Hammer. He appeared in the film the Social Network. He played Cameron and Tyler Winklevoss, the Winklevoss twins. I wanted to know if someone from Hammer's team hired you to run interference because their client was being labeled as a cannibal, what would one do? Well, it's certainly more than a press release response and my answer. I decided it would be best to bring in my PR crisis management counterpart from the North. Warren Weeks is the guy, my go to guy when it comes to chatting about these events that you might see in pop culture politics. So we had a conversation not only about Armie Hammer, but about the people who are experiencing blowback from attending the. For lack of a better word, the riots in Washington, D.C. the siege on the Capitol. So many of these people had to go back to their jobs. Well, some got arrested before they did, but others are being shamed online for going. And they're also being outed for what they do for a living. So that is a reputation hit. So they need damage control. So Warren and I, we're offering our takes on these stories and what we would do if we were brought in to handle all the damage. All right, Warren, thank you for our coffee chat. On the topic it seems that no one wants to talk about with me nowadays is the bottoming out of a brand. Like, what happens when someone's reputation skids completely out of. Because of the pandemic. I can't have these conversations in person with people. And last week seemed like such a week of this happening to so many different brands. And I thought, who could I possibly talk to about this? But of course, you. You were the first person that came to mind. So thank you for taking the time to chat with me.

Thank you. And I have my coffee, so I'm ready to go.

Oh, good. So it's an actual coffee chat. All right. The two of us. Perfect. All right, so I'm. My goal here today is to try and touch on as many of these flashpoints that happened in the previous weeks, but really they came through last week as well. And I wanted to get your take. So we'll talk about the issue. I want to get your take on it, and then if you were hired as their crisis person, what would you do? Like, above board, like, what would you publicly do to try and help them out of this mess? Okay, you ready? Okay, good. All right. Now, the first one that I tweeted about this person last week, and no one responded. So I feel like I'm the only person who even cares about this issue. But I was glad to find out that you knew about it. The actor Armie Hammer. So you're familiar with his work?

Vaguely. More in the last week or so.

Oh, really? See, I just know him mostly from the Social Network, you know, because he played the twins and he played. He played a role that I feel like resonates with his public image nowadays.

Yeah, he's been around. I know the name for sure.

Yeah, yeah. And he is. So he's someone who is a descendant of the Arm and Hammer fortune. I don't know if you knew that, but he's. He's a money kid. But very quickly, what happened to him is what came out last week is there were screen grabs, unverified screen grabs of lurid text messages that he sent a number of years ago, but they were posted on Instagram, they were very dark, they were very graphic. He professed a desire to bite pieces off of people. So it immediately became an Armie Hammer is a cannibal type of a story. That's a hard one for a Hollywood actor, wouldn't you agree?

It's not ideal. Yeah.

As far as Brand goes, yeah, you're absolutely right.

Yeah, cannibalism is kind of up there with the, you know, the faux pas of society these days. And so, yeah, I looked into the story, checked it out. I'm like, there's so much that's uncool about this. You know, does he actually want to chop people up and eat them? Who knows? But like there's, there's the whole privacy, you know, is, can you have a private DM conversation with anybody these days without it getting screen grabbed and sent off? Do you have to have NDAs with everyone you connect with online? But, but yeah, this is going to be a reputational hit for sure. I don't think he's done anything social media wise since then. And you know, there is a lot of other stuff going on in the world right now. So it's not the biggest story, but this is the kind of thing that can derail a career for a, a certain amount of time, right?

Yes. You know, did you happen to hear his response or see it, what he said?

I didn't hear what he said. No.

Okay. So he ended up losing. He had a, he had a role in a rom com with Jennifer Lopez. So when you're starting with JLo, I mean, that's a significant hit that he took by having to step back. But what his statement was. So since you haven't heard it, Warren, and it's okay if you're not following all the Hollywood, you know, matter that's happening right now. He says, I'm not responding to these BS claims. And by the way, he did not say bs. But in light of the vicious and spurious online attacks against me, I cannot in good conscience now leave my children for four months to shoot a film in the Dominican Republic. So what do you call that kind of a response?

I call that sort of thing, I guess, or like, you know, the old like, look over here, what's this? He doesn't say it's not true. Right. Like, if that's, if, if that's me, if someone says that about me, I'm Coming out with a press conference or like a Twitter video or something saying, this is absolutely false. I would challenge, you know, get my Internet provider. Something like that. Here, go through my phone. Something like, you know, so we didn't hear any of that. And to come up with the. It sounds like a bit of a. Like a secondary excuse. So I think he's trying to just go away. And I think, you know, because of what's happening in the world right now going, you know, with the election, the inauguration, the pandemic, there's like, just pick your dumpster fire. And I think that. I think he's hoping that people. It'll just get lost in the fog of time and maybe a couple months or a couple years later, he bounces back bigger and better than ever.

Yeah, I don't know if that's going to happen. I agree with you. It was, it was a flat out denial. Right. Like he's. He, in a sense, he denied it, but he was placing the act in a different context, you know, Know, and he, he made it about not wanting to do the film because he doesn't want to leave his family in the, in the Dominican Republic now since his wife wants to leave him. That is a, that's. That's a response that has a lot of holes. But the way that I looked at it, if I worked for Armie Hammer, all of these messages that came out, even though they're unverified, he's had girlfriends, former girlfriends come out like, this is the environment that we're in. Right. Like everyone's gonna roll out all of the stories. What it comes down to, it's. This is a story predicated by sex and desire. That's what the story is. It's a. It's a sexual urge story. And it's really about the kink of it all. So I think that's what I would do. I would just admit, like, okay, it's not really cannibalism. No. But, you know, that's really what it is. And I think people would buy that, that if you speak a certain way, it doesn't necessarily mean that you do that. But I don't know, it's a tough metaphor. It's a metaphor that I want to bite your flesh any. Exactly. You won't be going out on dinner dates. Exactly. That's what we would do. If you worked for him, you'd say, whatever you do army, do not be photographed in a restaurant. You'll be dead. You'll be memed to death. All right, okay. So moving on now, because you are in Toronto, we have to bring in the politics of. Of Canada, the politics of Ontario with everything going on in the US Right now. There was an interesting story that, of course, you alerted me to because you tweeted about it, but I. It had me written all over it. So tell the story about. Tell the story about a tweet that went wrong.

Is this the. The guy who went on a little vacation?

A little vacation? Yes. During quarantine? Yes.

Okay. So in the months leading up to the Christmas holidays, the Ontario government. That's where I'm from. Canada. Ontario's province in Canada. I know the United States.

They don't know where it is. Yeah, of course.

And I get it. So very vigorous stay at home. Don't travel out. Very. Almost like to the. To the guilty. Like, you know, call the cops if you see your neighbors with some cars in the driveway. It's been really. The numbers have been going up, obviously. And so the government drafted this legislation, and right before the Christmas holidays, my kids came home with all of their stuff from school, and they hadn't really announced it yet, but the indication was that they weren't going to be going back. And obviously, everyone, you know, they're downstairs right now on. On virtual school. And so all these politicians were saying, stay home, stay home, stay home. And then it occurs. Someone leaked the story that this cabinet minister in Ontario, his name's Rod Phillips, had actually been. He'd gone away, I think. Was he the guy that was in Hawaii? He'd gone on a trip, tropical vacation. For. Oh, no, Saint Barts. He was in Saint Barts for a couple of weeks. And, you know, that's. People are like, oh, the guy went on a trip. It's his money, it's his life, whatever. It's taking a risk. Okay, that's fine. But his Twitter feed, he had gone. I, you know, I have to tip my hat to the guy in a way, just for the. For the effort. Before the holidays, he went out and he got. He was photographed with a bunch of business owners, you know, shaking their hands, giving them a gift in front of his Christmas tree, reading a little book. He had a little gingerbread house there, and he had someone on his staff or himself, like, putting these things out one day at a time, as if he were actually in town celebrating. And there's that one tweet that says, you know, at this time of year when we're all making sacrifices and staying at home and blah, blah, blah, meanwhile, the guy's like, sun tanning On a bead. And so that became the huge. That's what a Canadian scandal looks like, by the way. So you guys have much cooler scandals in the States. There was such a huge backlash, and just there was this. Just this pressure cooker. Everybody's so upset and frustrated, and we've all been dealing with this for so long, and everyone's trying to do the right thing. And then you have this just blatant hypocrisy and. And not only is it a politician, it's one of the ones who is drafting the legislation for everybody else to stay home. So it's the whole two sets of rules, one for you, one for me. And I think the guy hadn't been back more than a couple hours, and he was, he was out of his job. They said he resigned, but I don't think. I don't think he had a choice. But to me, that's just unconscionable.

Well, and it's. And he was one of a long line of people who did the same thing and not just travel. But the rub is. Well, they were. They were speaking out of both sides of their mouth. You know, they were telling people. And in the case in the US version is the White House Coronavirus Task Force Coordinator, Dr. Deborah Bricks. She was someone who told people obviously not to travel over Thanksgiving, the US Thanksgiving, and she went to Delaware and traveled with her family, and she ended up stepping back and resigning as well. So, yeah, it's the people when they're in the position. Now, what's interesting about this one, though, Warren, is that this crisis, if you will, spread, and it spread up to the premier, Doug Ford. And what. How did he respond? What did he have to do?

Well, Doug Ford really has ignored it so far. He. He has been in a bit of a cone of silence over the last couple of. Well, certainly couple of weeks, maybe a couple of months. He used to be doing daily briefings, you know, folks we can. Very folksy, backyard barbecue, buck a beer kind of language. And as things have intensified and it's been clear that their operational approach hasn't worked to the degree that they wanted or just, you know, I remember going, you know, driving down the highway in April and there was no traffic. Like, I've never gone from my home. I live about, you know, half hour outside Toronto. Never been down there that fast. And like a month ago, it was gridlock. And it's the same, you know, you're supposed to be staying at home. So I think there's. They're realizing that people Aren't listening. The numbers are going up. And I think, in part, people aren't listening because they're getting mixed messages from politicians saying one thing and doing another. So to a large extent, you haven't seen him very much. He's in the metaphorical bunker these days. And I think he's. I think he's feeling the stress of this enormously.

But what about the fact that Doug Ford, which you told me before we were recording, and I never knew this. He's the brother of Rob Ford. I don't know how I didn't know this.

Yes. They. They look kind of like twins, actually.

Yeah. One less portly, though. I feel like Doug is a little more put together. Right. Is it Rob, the sloppier version? Okay. All right.

He's passed away now, so you're gonna feel bad.

Oh, boy. Okay. Was the sloppier. I know. Okay, so he. That's right. I didn't know that. See, this is like, typical Americans. We only think about our own politicians. You're right. But the fact that he knew that Rod Phillip was there, and for weeks, he knew it.

So.

So that's. Isn't that another way of silence? Covering up a lie?

I believe that he. You know, as a cabinet minister, you can't travel outside the country without authorization from. From your boss. And I think in that case, I. I really believe. I think Doug Ford is trying to do the right thing. And he is a very. Like, I have clients of mine who said Doug Ford called me on Christmas Eve just to say, I hope your family's doing okay. If there's anything you need. Like, he's. But that's. I think that he's more. To me, he's more of a town counselor. Like, he's the guy who will show up and shovel your driveway. Like, they. That's how they hit Rob and Doug Ford. That's actually how they made their names. They were. You could call them any time of day. They'd be there. They'd fix the problem. This is a level where, you know, I think he. He was aware. And I'm just speculating here because I don't know. And once he knew that he was gone away, he was just. Fingers crossed. Hopefully nobody finds out. And then once they find out, then it's kind of on. It's on the politician. So, like. And I was tweeting, like, you know, this. This dude's toast. Like, you just. There's a couple of them a year where it's just. There's no other option. Except you have to lose your job and to make the pressure go away. And it did. It made the story go away. And then other politicians started popping up. Like there was one, I forget the woman's name, but in Alberta, it's. Alberta is Canada's version of Texas. And so there was a politician there who had gone away and when she was busted. And I'm watching all their Twitter accounts, what are they saying? Are they responding? She was pretty silent. People are just, Tracy Allard, that's her name. And people were going very, very boisterous online looking for answers. And she basically came out with a statement that said, well, you know, I did travel, I'm sorry, but you know, my family has a tradition. We get together every Christmas and we go away and everyone's like, excuse me, like everybody's family has, all have traditions. And you know, this is the first year and I'm sitting at home like a dork by myself on Christmas Eve at my house because I'm trying to do the right thing. Haven't seen my family, first time in 52 years. That's how old I am, everybody. Oh my God. How does he look so young? Oh, you can't see me. Okay, it doesn't matter. But that was. And so there's a whole bunch of those that, that have popped up. And then there were some, some heads of hospitals here in the same boat where. And then it became this snitch line where these people would get outed. And there was one guy, I forget his name, but he was the president of a hospital here. He got busted on a trip, they fired him. But then because the board had approved his trip, he ended up getting a million dollar package from the hospital. So not only does he get his, his, his exotic getaway, he got a million bucks and he's like riding off into the sunset now.

Wow. Yeah. So I think, you know, that we, there was certainly a spike of people who are caught up in this and I think there was a lesson learned. And now nowadays I don't feel as that people are going to make the same mistake because they know that that excuse just doesn't hold water of why I needed to see my family. And there's so many of them, but I, I'd be surprised if we see more of them. I think people have learned their lesson on that. Now speaking of people working for a business or running a business or the head of a business who traveled down to Washington D.C. to attend the rally. This is going to be a very narrow minded American question. Warren, did People in Canada or Toronto go down even though they're not American. But just the idea of this revolutionary take. Did any Canadians go down there?

Some did. Some for sure. I've seen on Twitter. I don't think it was a ton, but there were a few.

Okay.

And yeah, I saw definitely some people here and they're like, you know, fight the power maga.

All that stuff do not tread on me. Okay. Yeah. So. So now for a lot of the businesses, and I know you, you followed this. Okay. The people who went down there, the people who got caught up in the movement, they live streamed, they took photos, a lot of them business owners. There was a case of the woman, Jenna Ryan, I believe her name is, she was a. A realtor from Texas. And her and a few people rented a plane and they flew privately to Washington D.C. and she. She was taking photos. Another woman, I, I think her name is. I should have written this in my notes. Jenny Crud or Jenny Cudd. That's what it is. Not Crud. Um, Jenny Cud. And she was another person who was filmed outside of Senator Pelosi's office. And so one by one, they're starting to get arrested. And I just wanted to know, like, from you, your take, those are big names that came out, but I think locally, a lot of people went back into their communities after they posted a photo on. On Twitter, or not even Twitter, you know, Facebook, where everyone sees it, and now they're being labeled as racist or anti masquerade and they're getting problems. There's problems here. So what do you think about the. The person who did that, who went to Washington D.C. and then they come back.

So there's risk and reward to everything in life, right? And to me, it's like, to me, this is like a childlike decision that you're gonna go and be part of this thing and like, what did you think was gonna happen? Like, do you know how technology works? Like, does anyone who's been at a concert or any. You know, when people get together on the streets and they support their team back in the days, like, there's high resolution, high definition images of every single person. Like, we had a hockey riot here. That's the kind of riot we have in Canada. We have been three of them to date. But Vancouver Canucks lost to Boston Bruins game seven and they had a riot afterwards out in the streets. They're flipping cars and burning buildings and stuff and, you know, dudes with Molotov cocktails and masks and they arrested three or four hundred people from that over the next, like, they could zoom in to like your eyebrow hair, like, super, super. And you have your cell phone information. Like, everyone who had a phone on in there and is broadcasting that. So, like, in the chess match of life and business, like, what did you think was going to happen? Like, how do you think this is going to play out? And so I would always be thinking, what's the worst possible outcome? And if you go down there and get outed. I thought there was some woman, I forget who it was, but she basically said, like, well, you know, President Trump told us to do it. Now they're blaming him. Like, he told us to come, like I did. We're just following his directions. And so I think those people can expect a, a reputational hit and, you know, maybe maybe decreases their business a bit or maybe goes up with a certain audience. Like, you know, who knows, they could just lean into the, the far right thing. I have no idea. But it's like, that's something I, you, you would never find me. And I don't think you likewise would be anywhere near something like that. Just the controversy involved.

Oh, no, not at all. And I should have known that you brought this up and I never thought about it. And I have to, I have to take a pivot here for a moment. The sports riot, I mean, oh, my gosh, I remember in the Red Sox riot, it was after. It was in 2013, and all these Red Sox fans got. They were arrested. And it's so funny, right? Nowadays you don't really see sport riots, you know, because riots have a whole new meaning. So that's, that's so interesting. And I'm not surprised that you brought it up. I brought up baseball. You brought up hockey. Think so. I have a slightly different take. So I think you gave more of the vanilla version of it, which is the good one. Like you gave the middle of the road, like you're being a good crisis manager, that you're not. You're not importing your politics into the answer, which is good and everyone needs that. Not that it was pablum, but, you know, it's just more of, hey, I'm just looking at it from both sides of views. And I'm the same way, right? I'm always the same way. But when it comes to this mega rally, if you will, and where it came local, you know, for me, you know, people were tagging me on Facebook about a woman where, where we live is. She is a yoga instructor, she owns a yoga studio, and she traveled to Washington D.C. to you know, attend the rally. And then she came back and started practicing yoga. Like people were going into her yoga studio. So it's two issues, right? It's not just the political, but it is the anti masking movement behind it. So she was taking this double hip and hit and people on Facebook were tagging me to ask my opinion on it. And I thought, there is no way I'm jumping into this phrase, like no way, no good can come from this. However, and people were calling her a racist and some people were fighting back and saying, you know, it doesn't pass the sniff test for me that she's a racist. But her story and many other stories that are out there and read them locally is this. If you are a person who either owns a business or a known brand. In one case in Maryland, I saw the story of a kid who's the police chief's son, I believe, you know, went there and there's a lot of blowback. And the question is, is it fair? Now me, this is personally and professionally, this is what I feel. That rally, even though people talk about the integrity of the vote and they were questioning, was a rally of racists. It just was. You can take a mega hat and replace it with a pointy white hat and it was a racist rally. They have confederate flags that are there. You may believe, and I believe this, I believe that people may believe that they're not racist. I believe that. But if you are at a rally where racism is one of the, one of the rally cries there, then you have to stand with it. There's nothing that you can, that you can get away with. But to say there's nothing that you can say to justify being there. If you can't answer that question about racism, what do you think?

Valid? Yeah, for sure it's. And that's what, you know, when I talked about that chess match of life, right. Like, even if you, you would say like 100%, I'm not racist, but I'm going to go to this event. Don't you, you know, there's a risk that you're going to get painted with that brush. And especially, you know, we're seeing people from law enforcement, people from the military, realtors, dentists, you know, it's police chiefs, sons, that kind of thing. So it's. And the Internet is forever, right. And people don't forget now. So that stuff's all digitized and yeah, problem.

Yeah, it is a problem. And so I think people are feeling that blowback now. And you mentioned the realtor, her Name's Jenna Ryan. So the fact that she came out and said, well, Trump asked me to go down there, so she's turning against her party, if you will. But I thought it was brilliant. Like, why. Why not use that as your reasoning?

There's very few things you can say, right? Like, it's like the army hammer thing. How do I. How do I get out of this? Like, making it sound like it's not true, but not actually saying it isn't true, and come up with some kind of excuse that my fans can maybe grab onto and I'm gonna go away for a little bit.

Yeah, exactly. So here's the last one. So let's talk about. And again, I want to thank you for sharing your wisdom across the border here, because this is a very American issue, but the Trump brand and thinking about his adult children, Ivanka, Don Jr. And Eric, and also the people. I read a story, and you may have seen it, too, flash across Twitter about people who work at the White House are having trouble getting jobs. People don't even want to hire them. I saw an interview where they, they. They spoke with a recruiter, and they said that people won't even pick up the phone with people who worked at the White House. So talk to me, and I want to get your opinion on this. Like, what do you do if you have been associated with a tainted brand? How could. Let's look at it just from. Just first, just very quickly, like, the. The adult Trump kids, like, what do they do?

So a lot of people would hear that and say, who cares? Who cares what they do?

Right?

And, you know, the, you know, from a. There's, There's. There's a couple different options, and it depends on what does the individual want to do and think. Most people, most rational people in that situation would be like, you know, what they seem financially. They don't need revenue coming in. You know, they. They seem financially okay, which. That's a huge tick in the. You get to choose what your option is box. And after that, it's really, you know, do you want to. Like, this family seems to have these insatiable egos, and so do they need to have that public affirmation? Do they need to be out and have their face out there and have another TV show or a new, you know, broadcasting empire? Is Donald Trump going to make his own Twitter? You know, something like that? Like, which I. 50. 50 that. That could happen in the next year. So the article I think that you're referring to is I saw one that said something along the lines of, like, if, If I as an employer saw that you worked for that administration, I'm going to assume everything that comes out of your mouth is a lie.

Yes, yes.

And so I think that, yeah, that's a problem. It's a problem. But now, you know, again, trying to think of it practically, really. And I'm a Canadian, so just take all this with a, with a grain of salt. Right? But I think that right now you, you have, it's not one America. You have two Americas right now. And 70 million people voted for this guy. And so I think what you'll see is one half of the country won't hire them. The other half will, I think, be more than happy to hire them. And so, you know, you're seeing the articles I think probably written from the half that wouldn't. From the Democratic leaning. And, and that's, you know, let's face it, that's who runs most of the media is. It's swings more on the left side. I have a sister who's a journalist here, and I, I call her communist all the time, a socialist.

Many do down here. Not your sister.

But it's, but it's. There, just there is. There is that. That leaning for, for most of the mainstream journalists. And so I think that there will be some issues for some, some folks. I'm not worried about his kids at all. You know, I think that they'll be fine financially, reputation wise. It depends. Like, I, you know, I can just, I can easily see the option where they just kind of go away, have their money, live their lives, but I don't think that's going to happen. They just, they have these egos that need to be fed and, and who knows? Like, I, I just. What is. What has happened in the last couple of weeks is absolutely exhausting. It's just, I'm like, I'm watching this on TV and like, and I just see on Twitter, turn your TV on now. And I turn it on. I'm like, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. And so it keeps going. I rem. When Trump was elected and people saying, oh, my God, this is the worst. And I'm like, how bad could it. Like, it'll be a little awkward maybe at times for four years and, like, had no idea where we're going to end up. So I think half the country, you know, the, the 70 million people who voted there are, there are people who, and you know, if that's not the case, then you have to start small. You're not Going to be working for something of a huge profile. You might have to start for with a small association or just you can rebuild yourself. Right. Americans and people in general love tearing people down. But we also love a comeback story. Look at Winona Ryder, who's written off. She's a shoplifter and now she's the mom on Stranger things. Robert Downey Jr. Was a burnt out actor at risk of death in 2000 and now he's Iron man, he's the anchor of the Marvel Universe. So there will be opportunities. But I think, you know, right now and to me that that's the bigger issue that, that, that the states is dealing with. I'd be interested in your take on that. Is that two America's piece? So I think they have the ability to work in one.

Yeah. And okay, so I wanted to talk about the Trump kids. Kids, the adult kids. Because it led in, you led into exactly what I wanted to get out of it, which is you can use them as a blueprint. And you had mentioned Ivanka, what she's going to try and do. I absolutely heard that she's already pitching tv, you know, cable TV to get a reality show, which would be brilliant. I do think Don Jr. And Eric, they're gonna try and be a part of that mega brand where Ivanka, who's likely going to run for office down in Florida, will try and slightly step away from it because she is the polished version of the Trump. She had money, she had, she had class, she had her brand. I mean, I love the video of the woman that just came out this week, even though it was from years ago that wanted to speak to the manager at Nordstrom's because she was canceling her account and going to Dillard's because, you know, you're, you're dropping the Ivanka line, which is so, you know, ironic because you wouldn't even put Dillards and Nordstrom's and you know, in the same breath. And I'm sure the, you know, the head of Nordstrom's was laughing along with it. But Ivanka will try and make a, a sidestep there where she will. And this is what you talked about. You reinvent yourself. Correct. Like you, you have to build something new where I think Don Jr. And Eric are so enmeshed in it. So if you are person who either worked in the administration or you're, you're just a Republican who is known as a conservative, maybe you have a business that, you know, that's, that's known for that. I don't think you have to necessarily denounce your ideals. Like, as a Republican, there is two, I think there's two parties, too. There's the Trump Party and there's a Republican Party. You know, it's interesting about the inauguration, and I completely forgot this. I was there. I was at the inauguration with my kids. Like, we went there as a family and we were up very, very close. Like, close enough where we could turn around and see all the people. And so when Sean Spicer, the former press secretary for the White House, the first one, and now a Dancing with the Stars alum, when you did look back, it looked like a sea of people. So I always felt, you know what? I could see why they felt that way. Also, when Donald Trump spoke and he spoke about this new America and making it great again, I was listening to it as a communicator, I thought, how is this speech, if for the lack of a better it's a speech, how is this resonating? I thought, oh, that's interesting. Like, he's redefining what he thinks America is. Well, when you left the inauguration and there I'm with my kids, you have all the mega people in the hats, and then you have all the women, I don't know if you remember this, in the pink hats, you know, so. Right. So now. And that's where we were at that time. And everything kind of turned. Like, the mega hats, I notice, took a dark turn. Like there was just that anger in the air. So I felt it and my kids felt it on day one of his administration, the darkness of it. So the, so my last thought of it was about this. You know, a reputation is a value, right? It's intangible, but it, it's a cost. Right? You know, there's a cost to a reputation, and if you have a threat to it, if there's a threat to that resource, if it's unfavorable, it's going to cost you favorable ones sell movie tickets, they win elections, you know, they. People will invest in you, in your business, your employees will believe in you. But if you don't have it, you won't have any of those things. So in a crisis, if you respond in a way that's positive, you can rebuild your reputation. And like you said, you can reinvent yourself. So I, I agree with you. Just because you worked for an administration doesn't mean you should be unemployable for the rest of your life. But what is your value? I mean, are you, are you espousing Donald Trump's values or Republican values. So I, I, that's kind of my thought on it. My take.

Well, and look at Bill Clinton, right? I was think, trying to think before we talked of comeback stories and, and this, this is one that always has me kind of scratching my head. Like if you look, looked at the, the Monica Lewinsky scandal and all of that that took place, and the guy is impeached and just, he, he didn't, he refused to go away. Right. It would have been very easy. I can't even imagine the stress of that. And he just persevered and stuck through it. And now he's like this rock star of a guy. And like everyone, when, when most people, I believe, think of Bill Clinton, that is just like a footnote. And he's been, he's been able to fill that with other things. He's done a lot of good in the world. He, I think, you know, apologized. He had some health issues. I think he had, you know, his, his moment of reflection and, but what a great comeback story for him.

Oh, absolutely. And it's, it's funny that you mentioned President Clinton, because I was thinking of President Clinton and I was always reading, also reading about Nixon, too, so the last, you know, president to be impeached. And I, I think the way to look at it, this is, at least for me, I try to be as agnostic as I can when it comes to just PR and politics. I am a true independent. I am from Minnesota. I'm from the Twin Cities. I'm a Gen Xer. I'm like the Jan Brady of everything. I'm always in the middle. But I was reflecting on it and I thought, you know, it's interesting, when I worked in Washington, D.C. it was during the George Bush years, the sun. And I, I was thinking back, like, wow, I had so many friends who were Republican or worked for the rnc. Like, I was really surrounded by this kind of Republican mindset. And I thought, you know, I probably voted Republican more than I voted, you know, Democrat. But I'm not like a conservative by any means. I'm very moderate and I'm now like a true independent, and I definitely lean more Democratic now. But the difference, this is what I think the difference is Donald Trump doesn't represent a party. He represents Donald Trump. And, and what, what Richard Nixon did after his impeachment and Bill Clinton did, even though it's questionable if he meant it is, they showed remorse. They showed that they were willing to rehabilitate and become something else. You know, Richard Nixon became, you know, a statesman. He became, you know, people remembered him on how he can negotiate international treaties. You know, so he was kind of known as that elder statesman, Bill Clinton. You know, he admitted to it. He admitted Monica Lewinsky, even though. Right, right. So we, we question it, knew the power of, of remorse and what it would do for him. Donald Trump will go down never admitting to anything. And that's, I think that's my big takeaway on all of it is narcissism. I think every president has a dose of narcissism, some more to a greater extent than others, but President Trump's is so off the chart that he doesn't. He only represents himself. So even when he talked about his mega followers, I'm going to march down there with you. And he was in the White House. That's who he is. So I think if you stick to that brand of self of narcissism and any person, I think, who's ever been raised by a narcissist or who's tried to divorce a narcissist, you just know they will never, ever give up. They will never admit fault. And that is Donald Trump. He's not a Republican. He is Donald Trump. So I don't know. So that's just my take. All comes down to values, Warren.

It does. And, and ultimately the people who I think are his detractors and the people who hate him, I think he's just kind of, of written them off. Right. Like, I don't speak to those people. He's any speaking to his base, which is huge. He's got a large potential audience to, to, and I think, you know, we're going to see him try to monetize that. Now there could be like legal or, you know, some sort of issues down the road for him, but if he makes it out unscathed, we're going to see some sort of Donald Trump media empire, I'm sure.

Yeah, I think he's, he's definitely going to try something. Okay, well, to just, to wrap everything up. So thank you for just bouncing around on all these topics. I feel so much better now that I got this out of my system that I could actually, actually speak with someone about it other than my, you know, my teenagers or like mom, this again, we're talking about these people. What is your, if you had to look at your value system as a crisis communicator, media trainer, just someone who's enmeshed in following public opinion and public sentiment. What do you think? Someone who is a, a business owner, the head of a brand, their own name, whatever it is, what is their intention for 2021? Like, if you're working with your clients or just the work that you'. What is shaping and informing your work for 2021? What do you think is the value that people need to have that will resonate the most with their publics?

I would say empathy and kindness put together and that, that sounds kind of soft, but there are, you know, I, I just, I look around at people and everyone seems to be doing, doing okay. We're plugging away and doing our thing, but it's difficult for people. I think if you looked at the, the isolation, the, you know, my kids have missed, it'll be almost two years of in person school with their friends and socialization. And I think that being played out in millions of households and people trying to work like, like this, like this is the only way that I've seen people over the past 11 months is on a screen. And I'm not saying that, you know, like, like my problems are not, not that bad. But on the whole, and then you go down to people who have lost businesses, who've lost loved ones, who have chronic illnesses, you know, you have the drug issues, spousal domestic abuse, like all of these things that are just being accelerated and heightened because of the pandemic. I think that demonstrating a heightened sense of kindness and empathy is like, you should always do that, but I think now, and I think that that can be done in tandem with trying to provide whatever your service is, whatever your product is. But I think just having a real, actually caring about your customer, not just saying you're our greatest asset or your employees for that part as well. Check in with your employees, make sure that you're providing those things. And it sounds kind of mushy and sort of motherhood, but that would be, to me, the big secret sauce for 2021 is empathy.

Warren, this is why we connect. Because that's my word too. Absolutely. It's empathy. It is an empathy. To me, I think people confuse it is. They confuse it with sympathy. But empathy is the act of putting yourself in someone's shoes and seeing them, putting on their glasses and viewing the world from their perspective. Business leaders, business owners, anyone managing a brand. If you, if you communicate based on your key public's needs and wants, fears, problems, then you will be able to communicate through anything, whether it's proactive or reactive in a crisis. It's understanding that. And I think the problem with President Trump is that he's the antithesis of it. He does not see it from the perspective of other people. He only sees it from himself. So if you follow from ego or narcissism, you're going. Or a leader, if you work for a leader who has that, I think it will be a very challenging 2021.

I agree.

Warren, thank you for allowing me to get all of this out of my system. It is always so much fun to speak with you about these issues. So thank you.

Likewise. Really enjoyed this. Thanks so much.

Okay, we'll be in touch again because I know there's going to be something else right around the corner. I want to thank Warren Weeks for joining me on the podcast. You can find him at mediatraining toronto.com or follow him on Twitter, which I do all the time. Warren, underscore Weeks and you can follow me on Twitter. Molly McPherson, as always, I love to hear your takes on these types of stories as well. That's all for this week. I'll see you back here again next week. Bye for now.