119: How to Manage Communications When You Work For a Difficult Boss with Dr. Abby Medcalf

There was a story from a few weeks ago that was made to order for this podcast.

Dallas based Pizza Inn is getting a lot of attention right now for its political opinions. The company Twitter account sent out a series of messages January 5th saying in part quote, we have a right to fair elections with unchallenged legitimacy and that begins with a system that is both transparent and secure. Whether your candidate won or lost, we should all have confidence in a process that helps us celebrate or at least accept the results. End quote.

I got your pepperoni pie right here.

With the side of the CEO's political opinions. No matter how you slice it, when a CEO wants to publicize an agenda through a company's official communication channels, there is a communicator left with a mess on their hands. On the podcast this week, how to handle a difficult boss when there is a threat of their behavior becoming the story. The Pizza Inn story is not the first time a CEO has landed their company in crisis by inserting their agenda or personal feelings into the recipe. I would like to get my life back. Anyone? Tony Hayward, CEO of BP 2010. Okay, I may be dating myself. Whether they spill the oil or spill the beans on their personal opinions, leaders can cause problems for a company and their communic if they become difficult, if they let their ego get in the way of proper messaging, and they confuse the internal communications of their own opinion with the official external communication channels. Now, when I read the Pizza Inn story, my first feeling was for the communicator who had to manage the fallout from a CEO wanting to send a press release and a Facebook post and tweets about his opinion on the election and the results. Oh, and all of this was on the day before the riot on the US Capitol. So what a mess. I knew who I needed to call for an answer about how to handle a sticky situation like this with a boss. Dr. Abby Metcalfe is a psychologist, author and speaker who helps people find meaning and connection with other people through good communications. Abby does the research, synthesizes the information, and creates structure and steps that people can follow to create change in a relatively short amount of time, like the time it takes to listen to your average confident communications episode. Here's Abby Abby Metcalfe, Ph.D. i'm so excited to speak with you on the podcast today because you are going to be the knowledge broker on a topic I've been wondering about for a while. So thank you for joining me to talk about jerks in the workplace.

I'm so excited. It's, you know, as soon as you said, are they a jerk or a narcissist? You had me at hello, so I couldn't wait to get on.

Oh, you're saying the perfect word. So we're gonna. Before we jump into the difference between a jerk and a narcissist, I said in the intro, what led me to this conversation was a CEO for a company who put out a press release based on his personal agenda and the empathy I had for the communicator that had to navigate that entire situation. So I knew I needed to do a podcast on this, but I knew that I wasn't knowledgeable enough to discuss it and I needed to go to a true pro. And you're the first person I thought of, so. And really not just because you do, you are a PhD and you do. You're actively working therapist, but also you understand the whole environment that we're in, social media, the whole political environment. You have a YouTube channel, you have a book, so you certainly get it. But tell me about your experience when you were working in the corporate environment.

Well, yeah, I came to, you know, my background is I have a master's in counseling psychology, but I. My PhD is actually in organizational psychology, so. So I'm really that bridge between therapy and business and how to link the two. And it's, you know, commonly these days we call him a coach, but in my day, way back when, we did not put those things together in that way. And even today it's better if coaches stay out of the therapy realm. But I didn't know better and I did both.

So.

So I was the person who got called in. I am in. I'm a recovering drug addict and I was doing an internship. It was a hundred years ago. I think I was a Hewlett Packard. And someone was like, hey Medcalf, aren't don't you know about drugs? And I said, yeah. And next thing I know, I'm working with an executive who had gotten in a lot of trouble because of his alcohol use. And I was very successful there. And so it became a niche. I became sort of the cleaner where I would come in to get hired. Lot of non disclosure agreements, a lot of NDAs and things like that. But I would get called in and work with executives who were having difficulties with drug and alcohol or it became other mental health issues and in a, in a sort of international frame. And now, you know, I've sort of left the corporate world, but I still do some work there and I do talks and things like that at companies, but it's fascinating to me to use this lens of therapy and of diagnosing people and all that when we're talking about businesses and executives because after all they're just people, right? Like the rest of us. And you know, the problem becomes when lay people start to diagnose and I always tell everyone, you know, I don't even really diagnose a lot. And diagnosing someone, are they a narcissist? Are they just a jerk? You can spend all day on that, but at the end of the day what you do to intervene is what's important. So I would tell everyone, you know, don't spend a lot of time there deciding if they are, aren't or diagnosing. But definitely trust your instincts when you know that someone is being, you know, maybe really selfish and self centered or you just. The biggie I think I hear a lot is executives or leaders who react really negatively to any feedback. They, they don't want to have any kind of criticism or any feedback and they turn it around and can make it your fault. And that where you just can't talk to them. That's what I hear from the people below them. They feel like I'm trying to communicate. I can't get my point across. They're not listening to me and I'm beating my head against the wall.

Well, when you said just earlier how you had me at narcissism and being a jerk, you had me when someone at Hewlett Packard said, hey Abby, didn't you have a problem with drugs? Can you help this guy? What an example of falling into a specialty based on just knowledge. And some of it is academic, but so much of it is life. So clearly you have found your niche and you're. That's why you're the perfect person to speak to about this because obviously it's the background and the knowledge of what you have studied in school, but also that, that corporate organizational piece of it. And as so you talk about not diagnosing people, not overthinking it, which are already right away you're offering a very valuable tip of overthinking. The lens of this episode is for the person who is working for a difficult boss. Now many of us have worked with difficult people. I have stories like I, you know, I could go back. Oh my God. Oh my gosh. I was thinking, I was just thinking about this when I was prepping for this episode when I had set up embargoed story with the New York Times and my boss, the head of this organization, I'm listening to the interview, and it ended with F you and the phone slamming. I'm like, oh, my God, this isn't going to be pretty. But. But nowadays, because of social media, where behaviors were once kept behind closed doors, now they are bleeding out into the public. So I wanted you to speak from the internal. The internal perspective of how someone who works with that erratic personality that can spill out and frame and shape a reputation negatively. How can they contain it? What are some of the tools that they can do? So the first thing, let's just go back to what you said for a moment, how people are kind of freewheeling with this idea of diagnosing people. So tell me again why someone in a position, in a work position, why they shouldn't do that.

It becomes dangerous because, number one, and I love you dearly, but, you know, nobody has this Google degree idea that I Google it and I look it up. Personality disorders, which is narcissism, is. Are actually, you know, more rare than you would think. And it's a, it's a very big deal to sort of label people like this, to use these broad brushstrokes. And it stops, you act to me. It stops people from actually doing anything because they get to say, oh, he's just a narcissist. You know, what am I going to do? And they become victims in their own story. They become, you know, blaming. It becomes judgmental. And that's never a way we're going to problem solve. I mean, we know that. So leave the diagnosing to the professionals and instead do trust your own gut. Like, wow, this person is very defensive. This person is very pass. Is really passive aggressive. They. Those are the things I'm trying to think of, the things I hear the most complaints about from employees or, you know, executives who have higher executives that they're answering to. Those are the things. And again, this, they don't. They're not listening to me. I'm trying to reason with them. I'm trying to tell them what they should or shouldn't do, and they just aren't listening. I'm sure everyone who worked for Trump would say the same. So.

Well, I, you know, in a previous episode, I had posited that I felt, you know, just the whole scrum of what happened at the Capitol and so many people who, gosh, there could be a whole other podcast if you just diagnose. Well, we're not supposed to. No, you can diagnose people. You're a trained therapist. You can do it. But just the idea of People who fall into just these thoughts and patterns and the fact that Trump had told his crowd of MAGA supporters and the, you know, the, the q non follow QAnon followers, I will march down there with you. And then he just marched right back to the White House and sat and watched it all on cold on television. I, there was such a self centeredness to it that I felt, it seemed like this narcissistic trait that he's never, ever, ever going to back down. And I had said on the episode, I think anyone who's, who's been brought up by a narcissistic parent or tried to divorce a narcissist, they see those same type of qualities that they never want to break back down. But I see what you're saying too. If you focus so much on what you think someone is or diagnosing them, you're just going to end up, it's a, almost a waste of time. Is that what I'm hearing you say?

That's what I think. You can stay there or you can move towards solution. You can go on what you do know, what you do know. Stick with that. Okay, here's what I know, because once you start diagnosing, then you're looking up how do I deal with a narcissist? And that might not be what's going to work here. So, and I'll tell you, the things I'm about to say are really not. They work kind of everywhere, I have to admit. But it's, I would say very different things for, if we were sure this person was a narcissist. And there's subtypes of narcissism. I mean, it goes on and on. It's again, it's complex. It's why we have so many years of schooling to do this. It's very complex. And just reading something on Psychology Today or wherever isn't going to get you there. So instead, really think, what do I know about this person? I know that again, they're passive aggressive. I know that giving them any kind of feedback. Boy, I got to spend an hour thinking how I'm going to do it. And I'm going to give you such a quick trick today for this that will a hundred percent guaranteed change the game.

Oh, okay.

I like that. I'm throwing it out. I'm throwing the gauntlet out. I'm just telling you this works every time when you stick to it.

Okay. Does it work in people's home lives? Does it work with their teenagers? It works with everyone everywhere.

Oh my gosh everywhere. I use it on my own teenagers quite a bit.

Okay. Okay. Before we get there. And I cannot wait to hear it. When a boss though, I have to go back for one moment. Whether or not they're a narcissist or just a jerk or they have a borderline personality disorder. Disorder. If you are a communication director or you're the head of hr, it's not your job. Unless you are your job working at, you know, in executive coaching.

Right.

Which as an aside, I still can't believe that you do not understand this connection. Your job. When you first told me about what you did, I said, oh, you're just like the woman on Billions on Showtime who did this. And you still have not watched the show, the program.

No, I. I don't watch tv. I like almost at all. I'm just, I'm very busy.

Okay, I understand. But she has your vibe. So that's why how I understood your job is from watching. Watching Billions. But this idea of the. The head of an organization, whether it's a house that happens to be white or a CEO or whatever it is, there is a difference between being off the rails crazy and just being a jerk. Is there some signal detection when you should start looking for a new job or. Or you're just going to give me your trick and you're going to make it work? Like, what would you say?

You know, I, I do. I've looked for new jobs. You know, I've run into people that. There was no talking in the world that was going to make that better. I. To me, it's. If it's the person. So what can you tolerate personally, if you are at home at night and you are miserable, if you are getting stomach aches or headaches or depressed, if you feel like you never get enough sleep, if you. To me, if you're anxious all the time, if you think about this job and you're just anxious, then I don't want you there because it's you. Now, I might be at that same job and I might be fine with that person. It doesn't bother me in the same way. It's really you and your history. Now, I'm not saying that you shouldn't try to work on it or, you know, do your best in there, but we can't always overcome all of our little synchronous, you know, our little idiosyncrasies and things like that. It's not as. It's just too hard and it's time to find something that a team, people that really work for you. And, and we know that most people leave their jobs when they don't like their boss. People will stay at a job for a long time even if they don't love the job, if they love their manager or their boss or the person who's, you know, directly ahead of them. And that's good for any manager listening to now that's, you know, people stay with me for years when they didn't like where we were because I'm, I'm, I'm a pretty good boss, you know, so, but it's really, it's, it's really individual to me and I do want you to try and try the tip I'm going to give you. But at the end of the day, your mental health is more important than any job.

Okay. Okay. That's, that's very, very good advice. So you're saying. So whether someone, they could be a narcissist, they could have borderline personalities, we don't know. But the, some of the biggies you say that stand out like they're extremely selfish, they're self centered, they need praise, they need reassurance. It sounds like I'm this like all the descriptions and characteristics of someone we know who just left office, but people who react very negatively to any feedback and, and they can be passive aggressive. It's. So what you're saying is if you can tolerate it and it doesn't bleed into your system, you can try this maneuver that you're going to give us to make it work. Okay, so. Okay, so our number one takeaway before we move on to it is don't diagnose anyone. It doesn't matter. Who cares? Right?

It's right. Who cares.

Leave it to the professionals. Leave it to the professionals. Okay, so now give me this. So I'm going to go back to. In the intro I gave the example of the CEO of Pizza and the, the company that owned Pizza in sent out a press release two days before the siege on the Capitol and it was his political agenda, if you will, about voter fraud and his thoughts on it. So again, I'm empathiz with this poor communicator that probably had to write the press release, edit the press release, send it off to the newswire to get it out there. It lasted a day. They were lambasted in the press, they yanked it down. But interesting, it's still on their Facebook page today, which, so I don't know what's going on there. So I'm thinking again, a communicator is like oh, my gosh. Can we just pull the press release? And the CEO says, but I'm keeping it on Facebook. We're keeping it there. Okay, so now our communicator, they're. They're staying at their job. They're just going to tough this out. What can they do?

So the first thing is you're. It's really about. It's not about managing them, it's managing yourself. So all this idea, we're going to manage this person, just get rid of that. You can't control them. That's not what's going to happen. One of our kind of favorite sayings in therapy is you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink, but you can salt the oats. Oh, so that's always what you want to be. I know that. I think Madeline Hunter said that I want to give the correct person tribute to that. And that's really how you want to think about things. So what's happening when. Here I am, I'm the CEO. I don't know the CEO's name. Let's call him John. Okay, I'm John. I'm the CEO. I'm, you know, little crazy. I'm. Whatever, I'm going out on my wing. But, you know, it doesn't have to be. It can be something they just really believe in, that doesn't have to be so controversial. But that you don't. That you're thinking, oh, my gosh, you've got to be kidding me. How can this be? So they're very caught up in that. We are only motivated by our emotions, and that's what everything is about. So. And when someone is really sticking really hard to something and arguing its points and really going crazy about that, they. This is all their emotion. And what's happening is a part of the brain called the amygdala is getting lit up. And that's your fight, flight or freeze response. Whenever you think there's a threat, whenever you. And trust me, anything, just about anything could be a threat. Feedback, someone saying they don't like it, our brains will and will consider that a threat. So here's John, the CEO, spouting off. And let's say, you know, Jane, the communications person, goes up and is thinking, now if she starts to argue with him, oh, but we can't do that. And look at all this. And there's all this thing, da, da, da. What's happening is when we use logic like that, it's gone. And you, you know, whenever you've tried this people, you try to use logic, it doesn't work because the amygdala, this part of our brain, which is in our limbic system, there's other things there, our hypothalamus, all kinds of other stuff. But anyway, when this part of the brain is keyed on, you can see this on a functional MRI or a PET scan. When this part of the brain is on another part of our brain, which is our prefrontal cortex, which is where all our logic is, our thinking, our problem solving, our long term planning, our judgment, our value, all the good stuff. That part of the brain, when the amygdala is on, when that fight, flight or freeze is on, it literally looks like there's a blanket over that part of the brain. It, it, it's not that it won't turn on, it can't turn on. So when you are come, when someone is in that place, like this CEO is obviously in a very fight, sort of agitation, when you come at them with all the good reasons why they're not hearing, they're literally not hearing you. And I'm going to take this down one notch. Let's say that your partner is home complaining about Bob at work. Oh, Bob. I hate Bob. I'm so sick of Bob. Bob's the worst. And you're listening, right? And you start to give fabulous suggestions. Well, have you talked to your boss about Bob? Have you tried to confront Bob? Have you talked? Right? And what happens? Does your partner go, oh yeah, what a great idea. Thank you so much for that valuable feedback. No, no, they escalate, right? They go, I, you don't understand. I, I can't do that. And they get, they get higher in the emotion because you are speaking to the prefrontal cortex when only their limbic, when only their amygdala is lit. So what you need to do is this tool I have called say yes first, which is basically that you speak to the amygdala first. So you identify and validate the feeling, the emotion, and you do it. You match emotion but not tone. Right? So I, I don't want to say, oh my God, Bob at work again, that's horrible. I'm not doing that because that's just going to escalate. But, oh, is Bob, you know, oh, that guy. That sucks. That really sucks. Wow, Bob is, I hate seeing you in this much pain about this guy.

It sucks. I hate that guy.

Now you might not really hate that guy. Where people argue with this is that, well, I don't think my partner should be Complaining about Bob. I think it's ridiculous. Or Barb, whoever at work, or I think this guy's completely wrong. Yelling about the Trump administration, you know, and backing them up and saying all that. The problem is you don't. It's not about wrong or right. You're not agreeing with what the person's saying. You're agreeing with the emotion that you see it. And this is an ancient hardwiring. Ancient hardwiring. You're. You're saying that you see the tiger. Basically, this person is telling you a tiger's about to eat, and you start giving them, well, what do you want to run? Do you want to stand here? What should we do about that tiger? I don't really know. And you're getting all rational, and what do they do? That tiger's about to eat me. They escalate. And this is true. If you're. If. When my son was getting ready for his math test and he was freaking out and like, oh, God, I don't. Oh, I got all this work, and I came over, and I didn't go, oh, it's gonna be okay, babe. Oh, come on. You know you always do. Well, that crap we do. Right? We're with. Which is dismissing the emotion, which is telling someone that's not a tiger. You're overreacting, and I'm not having it. And so what do they do? They escalate. And instead, if I go over. Which I did. Wow. How many chapters you got there, buddy? Nine.

Ooh.

Oh, let me see. God, that's a lot. And guess what he did. He said. Yeah, isn't it?

Okay, so, Abby, it's one thing to tell your son. It's funny. I think I just had this conversation yesterday with my daughter, except she's 16, and it was biology. Yeah, same thing. And. And I. Oh, gosh, by default, I did the same thing that you did is, you know, I acknowledged it's a lot of work, and then we kind of broke it down. And in the end, I think, you know, I said, oh, this is so easy. We can find a conifer. And I'm thinking, oh, great, now I got to go find conifers. But. But let's step back into the shoes of this communicator speaking with the CEO. Let's call him Brandon Solano because that's his name, okay? And he is questioning election integrity. But let's say I'm a communicator, and I don't believe any of it. So, using your advice.

What?

How would I. The communicator acknowledge his frustration without essentially lying.

That's all you do. You acknowledge your frustration. Oh, I can hear frustrated.

You are. By this.

Listen to you. You. I get it. You are. So. You're ready to pull your hair out about this, aren't you? Okay. And I will tell you right then, that CEO is going to turn around. Go. Yeah.

Okay.

Yes.

So. Okay.

It's so hard to have this position when no one agrees with you, isn't it?

Oh, this is good. So now you're you.

I. I can't imagine how frustrated, how alone you feel, how no one is listening to you, how you can't seem to get people to understand what you're trying to.

Are we.

And guess what's gonna happen?

We're calming him down. We're calling. Okay.

And all we're trying to do is calm that amygdala. We're saying we see the tiger. I don't agree with the tiger. I don't think there's a tiger myself. But you do. So I. I hear that you see a tiger. I don't see a tiger. But that's okay. It's not about me. It's about you.

Okay. Okay. I can see why that would totally work. It would take patience, a lot of. Probably blood in your mouth from biting your tongue. Right?

Well, that's what I hope not. What I'd like you to do is to sit there and really look at this person. So What. What's the CEO's name?

Brandon's name was Brandon Solano. Brandon.

Hi, Brandon. I hope you're listening. Brandon. Love you, babe. So here's Brandon. He is just out of his mind. He. He's feeling actually so incensed about this and so passionate about this that he's using his. His work as a place to write. And I have to admit, I do the same. I have a public position. I use my platform to talk about Black Lives Matter and other things that are important to me.

That.

Right. And I am just as vehement as he is. Yeah, I am, but on my side of the fence. Right. And so no one could talk me out of that. No one could come up to me and say, oh, please, all lives matter, or whatever else. You know, no one's going to be able to convince me otherwise. And so that's not the. But if someone could say to me some right, to show that they feel how frustrated I am, how angry I am, how despondent and hopeless I feel about how bad it still is, then I can build rapport. And I don't Want some? And so. And you can't build rapport if you're BSing. It's not going to happen. You're not going to build rapport from BSing. You need to really sit there and look at Brandon and go, this guy is just out of his mind about this. He is not thinking clearly. He's not right. He didn't think this all through. It got. You know, he's really not. And he's not. He's feeling so frustrated that he can't figure out a better way to get across this message.

Okay, this. This is. This is good because now I'm using your exercise and placing it in as many places as I can where you have to talk people off the ledge. And I think it's one thing if you're dealing with an argument inside your kitchen, but it's different when the argument is about to become a press release or a crazy tweet or a bad press conference. I'm going a little off the script here, but you brought it up. And I have to ask. You mentioned feedback. When people hear the word feedback, I would like to give you some feedback. Are you saying that automatically triggers fright or flight?

It's so bad. Because what is it? What do they hear? I want to offer you some criticism. I want to tell you some things you're doing wrong. So now their fear thing goes up. Now, I like feedback personally, but I have to say, depending on who it is who's saying they want to give me feedback because I don't trust them.

I don't.

I think they're just going to say. Because every time they say feedback, it's something I did wrong. So I don't necessarily want to hear it anymore. Your amygdala immediately, trust me, hears that word and it's off to the races. So that's not what we want to do. We just want to sit with the person first. Hey, how you doing, Brandon? You know, and he's probably losing his crap, right? This is a really hard day. This day sucks, doesn't it? Just sucks. No one's hearing you. No one's hearing me. No one's hearing nothing. And you get in that place with them again, you're not. You don't have to agree with them to agree that they're a human. And again, if you can put yourself there, if you can put your own feelings, like if someone tried to convince me that all black people are bad, it doesn't matter how much they tried to do it, they're not going to do it. It's not going to happen. I can't even. I wouldn't even begin the conversation, so. But I want the same empathy as Brandon.

Okay, but let me.

Just because I think I'm right doesn't make it different.

Let's de escalate for a moment. And this will be the last point that I. That I focus on, because I think it would be very helpful, especially for communicators, because in order for them to do their job, they need to hear from the boss, from the spokesperson, from the leader. You know, they always have to hear feedback from everyone else, like what we're talking about. So they're. They're like feedback brokers. They constantly have to do this. So tell me. Let's. Let's de escalate, Brandon, and let's say it's. We'll just say it's the same communicator, but now it's not this issue. It's. He wrote something and it's not crazy, it's not political. It's just off. You know, maybe the tone is off or maybe it just doesn't fit in the marketing scheme or the communication plan and you have to offer feedback. That's just fixing. Yep. What is. What is a skill that someone could do to help soften that?

Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, first thing you do is you always ask questions. Do not offer feedback without questions.

So.

So, Brandon. Okay, I'm seeing what you wrote. I have some questions. What is this? Well, here's number one. It gets even better. Is this a good time to talk? Ask permission. Do you.

Is.

Hey, can I have some questions about that press release? Is this a good time? When you ask permission, you're immediately giving them power and their amygdala.

Wait, so is that scientific fact? Is that someone that's.

I only have scientific facts, my friend.

So someone has power, so it calms about it.

Questions come from your prefrontal. You have to use the thinking part of your brain. You can't. Your amygdala doesn't ask questions. It only makes statements. Trust me. It's only like, I want that brownie. I hate that person. That's all your amygdala does. It has a lot of opinions. But your prefrontal cortex, this other part of your brain is asking questions. It's evaluating. It's thinking about things. So first. First. First is that. And the second is because you need to understand. You want someone to understand you and your opinion, but you're not willing to sit and understand their opinion. Where did this come from? What was their thinking? Can you tell me more about. Is my favorite question ever. Can you tell me more about what you said here? Can you tell me more about what you were thinking? And if you cannot BS this, you have to really want to understand. You must be curious. Set an intention of curiosity, sit in your office and bounce around saying, curious. Curious. Curious to yourself. Whatever you got to do. Because when you go in there, if you have an agenda and you think you're right, you're screwed. You need to listen like you're wrong. I say that all the time. You got to listen like you're wrong. You go in there and you really want to know, how did this person get from this place to this place? And in that conversation, you would be amazed at all the good things. First of all, people love to tell you why they think what they think. And there. Right. But you can intervene in there. So let's say Brandon, God bless him, is saying something that's a little off, right? It's off in this communication, and you can say it. Well, all right. I totally get what you're saying. Validating. There's the validating. I'm calming down. We see the tiger together. I see the tiger. I. I get what you're saying. Try not to say I hear you too much. That falls on flat ears. Or you might even just say, wow, you really are passionate about this, aren't you? Or this. Where does.

Where does you.

What do you feel right now when you're. This is one of my favorite questions. What do you feel right now when you're talking to me about this? What do you mean, what do I feel? What do you feel like right now? How are you feeling? Well, I'm feeling, you know. And you'll see, they feel angry. Oh, well, all right. So we gotta do this press release. I hear you're angry. I get it. But do you think that's how you know people will do well receiving it from that angry tone? Is that what you want to do? Tell me, is that. Is that what you're looking for? How do you do when people speak angrily at you? You know, how else do you think we could say this from a different tone? Tell me what else you feel about this. What else do you want to say? Do you see what we're doing here? There's a conversation trying to understand where they're coming from, how they're feeling. And when people feel heard, they will bend over backwards for you Went. As long as Brandon knows that that chief communicator hears him. Somebody hears Him. Somebody understands, he will start to shift his. What?

He said one person can be enough. They just want to be heard.

Yep.

Yep.

Abby, now you get me. So I trust you. If you're saying we should change this now. I trust you. I don't trust you. Otherwise, you think I'm wrong. Why would I trust this?

Okay, so all the walls are up initially, and it's the.

It's.

It's the duty of the person who needs to talk them, you know, off the ledge of the wall. But we need to do that by calming them down, calming down the amygdala. And I love these words. So you. So you say yes in the affirmative. You ask questions. Tell me more. Okay, so it doesn't matter if it's a big press release that will turn into a massive PR fail or if it's someone sitting at your kitchen table or just in the office and asking. You want to give feedback. You want to course correct someone, but you can't force it. You have to calm them first and then slip it in.

And try this with, you know, your kids, they come to you and ask, hey, can I do this? Can I go here? Can I do this? Instead of giving a yes or no, you can ask questions. Let them come up with it. Well? Well, what do you think it's. What time do we eat dinner? Oh, six o'. Clock. Well, what time is it? Well, it's five. Well, what do you think the answer is? Oh, I don't have time to go, do I? Well, do you think you do? No, I really want to spend more time with my friend.

Okay, so use the Socratic method as much as you can, just to have people answer their own questions.

I mean, it's big. But the big and the bigger part Here is for P.E. think about how you want to be treated. If you feel really about something and you have something out there and someone just says, that's just wrong, and here's why it's. And plus, I'm not learning. I'm not learning. To start, you want to kind of train this person that you work for to think, to feel, to understand their emotions and how they tie to what they say. If you can get them to do that, you'll have a lot less fixing to do later.

Abby, this is like an episode on Showtime's Billions. You have not only educated me, you've entertained me so much. No, Abby, this was so helpful. And I, of course, follow you on social. You're all over social. I read your book. And you listen to your podcast, Relationships Make Made easy. And isn't it interesting how something you could tell a couple sitting in your room for counseling applies to a communicator speaking to their boss? It's all about relationships. Correct?

It's all relationships. Yep. I mean, I learned that very early on. It really is about always in all of your relationships, leaning in. Leaning in. Leaning into where people are truly looking to connect with them. Truly looking to connect. And we say a lot. You say to connect before you. Correct. So you have to connect. And by. By saying you identify with a feeling they're having by saying that you see it, you're connecting, you're building rapport. They feel safer with you. Ah, she's a tiger, too. Okay, now, whatever suggestion you give me about how to deal with a tiger, I'm going to believe you're not dismissing me and my thoughts and my feelings by saying, it's going to be okay. Don't worry about that. I'm worried. Don't tell me not to worry.

Right.

All of these things. And when we ask the questions, we'll. Well, tell me more about why you're worried. What's the number one thing you're concerned about right now? What do you think is going to happen when we put this out? Like, how would you take this? Whatever. You know, there's a million questions to ask. I say a lot. Don't sack any relationship. Don't offer suggestions, give advice, or criticize.

Oh, sack sac. What were they again? Don't.

Don't offer suggestions, give advice, or criticize.

That's how you sack a relationship. Yep. Interesting. Oh, my gosh.

And so ask questions. That's all that's left.

Well, Abby, it was so nice to connect with you. And I value our relationship so much because that was so helpful. I know you. I know this advice is going to help a lot of people, and it's certainly going to help me and help me with my. With my. A lot of my clients as well. You can find Abby, of course, I mean, on your weekly YouTube clips and you're all over social media and. And I highly encourage people to listen to your PODC as well. Relationships made easy. It is so good. Like I told you, I was listening to it while I was wrapping Christmas gifts. It's so many tips there. Thank you so much, Abby.

Thank you for having me. It was awesome.

My thanks to Dr. Abby Medcalf for her advice for handling the difficult situations in life and at home. You can find abby online@abimedcalf.com and on Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram and you YouTube. Her content is amazing on social media. You can find a link to her book Being Happily Married even if your partner won't do a thing in the show notes. And remember, you can follow me on Twitter. Each week I share three additional tips from the week's topic. Look for hashtag response tips under my profile Molly McPherson. Plus, I've added fleets to the mix. What's a fleet? It's a fleeting tweet. In other words, it goes away that you can find on your Twitter app. Just look for my profile photo at the top and if there's an extra ring around the photo, there's a fleet just a click away. You can subscribe to the podcast on your favorite podcast platform. Also, please rate and review this podcast on Apple itunes. If you don't mind. And if you have a few moments, I'd love to read the feedback. I'll see you all here again next week. Bye for now.