127: How to Show True Leadership in a Virtual Media Interview with Brad Phillips

I couldn't have an episode about mastering on camera presentation skills without speaking to Brad Phillips. And as one of the best media trainers in the biz and commentator on the biz, I couldn't have a conversation with Brad without first speaking about his governor.

By the way, I feel very vindicated that he did not immediately step down because I said, he ain't going anywhere. And. And people pushed back and goes, he's out of here. One other guy wrote he's going to be gone by the end of the week. I'm like, no, he's not. He's here to stay. You guys don't know New York. I'm telling you, this New Yorker's not going anywhere.

Welcome to the Confident Communications podcast, where we help communicators create the right response at the right time and deliver it in the right place. You came here for the tips about how to nail the virtual interview. Whether that conversation is happening in an environment like Zoom, or a media interview or a press conference, I have you covered. In this episode, Brad Phillips is sharing three important objectives that you need to set out for a successful virtual media interview. You want to have all three top of mind before that red recording light comes on. Now, understanding how to parlay leadership, trust and transparency on camera is helpful in a time when, when so many of us watch and work on screens all day, every day. For the people who master the medium, their stock goes up. Look no further than Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York. His daily press briefings during the early days of the pandemic made him a viral star. People all around the country became Cuomo fanboys and fan girls, watching the governor mix it up with the press and people in his briefings with his tough, yet off the cuff Cuomo Persona. So today's episode not only offers pointers for how you can nail a virtual meeting or interview, but first we have to talk about how someone got nailed for not being so honest in his daily interviews. Brad Phillips. We have to start right here. Even though I've invited you to talk about public relations, media training, media relations in the digital age, we cannot even begin before we discuss your governor. Governor Cuomo. Tell me right now. We're late March. He's still hanging on. Give me your thoughts right now.

Okay, so first of all, Molly, it is good to be back with you again. And I, I like how you're referring to him, my governor blaming me for his behavior. So. So let's talk about Cuomo. I mean, he has been accused by multiple women of things ranging, I think the most severe allegation is that he groped a woman under her skirt to just inappropriate comments and everything in between those things. I shouldn't say just inappropriate comments. Inappropriate comments. He has been called. His resignation has been called for now by both senators in the state, by pretty much everybody in the assembly, and yet he is still weathering this thing. He's holding on. He's refusing to resign. And the question why is he still standing after all of this time? And I think here you get into this question of really, what are perverse incentives if he resigns, he's done. He has seen what happens to other New York politicians who step down at the peak of a crisis. Think about Elliot Spitzer, who before him was governor, stepping down because of a similar allegation. Think about, or in his case, hiring prostitutes. David Patterson, the governor before him, stepping down also under a cloud of allegations. Anthony Weiner. Boy, we produce a lot of winners here in New York State, don't we? Who stepped out. None of them have had a career resurrection. So he knows that's the path for him. So while people like me and a lot of other people in the state will say we wish he would step down because it's the right thing to do, he doesn't have much of an incentive to do it. And I should point out that there has been polling on this in New York State, and a lot of people, including many Democrats, are still saying if he is guilty of those things, he should resign. But they want due process. And so there's people who are kind of in that middle ground of they don't like what he did. If it's found to be true or proven by the investigation that the state attorney general is now leading, he should step away. But they do want to wait until they investigation is released before calling for him to step down.

Oh, good summary. Going back to. Thank you for bringing back the history of all the other people in New York, all your, all your New Yorkers who did step down. Though I will say, yeah, Governor Elliot Spitzer. His problem wasn't just prostitutes. I just remember the brown socks that he always wore. Socks like that will always stick with him. Right?

Yeah, that'll. That'll be one of those sticky memories. I think that even was on the COVID of one of the New York tabloids.

Yes. Now, very astute, Brad, that you bring that up, because I feel the same way that all he has right now is his legacy stepping down. Once I feel that he knows once he stepped out, once he steps down, he's going into the era of, of the Anthony Wieners and the Elliot Spitzers. What are they going to do? Although Elliot Spitzer did try and come back. Both Anthony Weiner and Elliot Spitzer both chose media, and Elliot Spitzer, you know, was on cnn. And then Anthony Weiner had that amazing documentary, I don't know, watch that documentary on him. It was good. I think both were on the cusp that they could have come back, but they just failed in the avenues. Well, then, of course, Anthony couldn't, could, couldn't keep it together. I was gonna say. I, I, I'm not gonna tell you what I was gonna say, but, yeah, there's some challenges there with the character. Wouldn't you agree on all those names?

100%. And in Quo's case, his term ends next year, at the end of next year. And so I think the, the thought he has is, look, the, the people in the New York State House who would be able to impeach him, it's very close. I think there's, he has, there are two more votes than are needed for impeachment. So right now, if the vote were taken, in theory, he could be impeached, but that's pretty close. And I think with his, he's gambling I can keep two or three people from voting for impeachment with a promise that I won't run for another term. And if I could just weather out the term. I mean, I think there is an analogy here to Governor Ralph Northam of Virginia. He was the governor. I'll remind your listeners who was caught in a college yearbook, I think law school yearbook, in blackface. And everybody, including me at the time, said that's the end of his political career. And we were wrong. It turned out that he kind of established this new template. I think President Trump also established a similar template of just fighting and say, I'm not going anywhere, make me. And in their cases, nobody made them. And so I think Cuomo is assuming or hoping that he'll, he'll be able to do the same thing, and that's what's driving his crisis response.

Yeah. And the, the Northam, I spent a lot of time on the Northam case as well. He, it was in his medical school book. I mean, but it was, it was from a ways back. And, and I received a lot of pushback. You know, like, you people love pushing back a little. When we tweet our opinions on what we think's going to happen. And you and I, I think we're lockstep. And what we thought about Cuomo that. This guy, he ain't going anywhere. He's. He's going to ride that Cuomo name as far as he possibly can. The difference with Northam, though, is because a lot of people brought up Northam to me. One, I do think it was a different time. Northam happened at the front end of the cancel culture. And also he did a formula that is straight out of a playbook. And that's why I've used him in a number of. Number of my talks and my workshops, is he came out right away and admitted it. He took accountability for it. Cuomo did not. And I think it was that act of accountability. And he did a video, if you remember, it was during super bowl weekend. He did a Friday afternoon video interview that he dropped, and he just slid it into super bowl weekend. And I think it was just a magic hour for him that he was able to skirt by. And then he just kept his head down and kept working. I don't know if it happened again, if he would get by. I think part of it was timing.

Yeah, Well, I think timing also, because, yes, he was accountable, but he was accountable for something he did 30 years earlier.

Yes.

Whereas Cuomo couldn't have been accountable in saying, that woman who says that I harassed her last year, there's no ducking that if was 30 years ago. I do wonder if he would have had a different response and it would have been seen differently. And one of the really interesting things in the polling, the question of why are even some Democrats continuing to support him? And I say that because Democrats have been the ones who really have been prosecuting the MeToo movement and making sure that there's accountability, including our own Senator Kirsten Gillibrand being one of the loudest voices insisting that Al Franken resigned from the Senate, a fellow Democrat. So Democrats really have been, in many ways on the forefront of this. But, you know, there are people, and this is showing up in polling as well, who are differentiating, who are saying, look, Harvey Weinstein, for example, was accused credibly of rape. This is not that. This is unwanted attention. And there are some people who say it makes no difference. Sexual harassment is sexual harassment, period. End of story. And there's others who are drawing distinctions between different acts and different behaviors, at the very least of suggesting that due process is warranted in this case, if not necessarily ones that have even more serious allegations like rape. So I think you're seeing all of that stuff show up. And that's why I think he's not in a hurry to go anywhere.

Right? Yeah, I agree with you. And here's. Here's my last thought on Cuomo, because my kids won't talk to me about Cuomo, so I don't have anyone to talk about someone enough, you know, a New Yorker. But here's what I find that's interesting about it, too, is there's something about Cuomo's character and that he's not a likable guy like someone. Like a Donald Trump. He has a base, you know, people believe strongly in him. No one believes anything in Cuomo. There's still the shine from his father, you know, former Governor Cuomo. But he is just like. My favorite headline that I saw saw on Twitter was from the Daily Beast that said, cuomo is not your dad. He's your dad's asshole boss, which I think absolutely captures him. But then I happened to read. I just brought it up because I. I remembered the story, and I'm sure you do as well. When the divorce happened between Andrew Cuomo and Carrie Kennedy, and then the. In the fallout, you know, she had the affair with the polo player, but just deep into that, you kind of knew that guy was an. Right. And. And I think that's at the core of it, is he doesn't have that support. But no one is quite to push him out of the nest just yet.

You know, I think you're raising another point, which is, remember, you know, to the degree that people liked him at the beginning of the pandemic, when he would go on TV and I think really strike a very nice tone of reassuring people that we need the ventilators, we are setting up, these centers, don't go out. We need to. So he struck this very nice tone that resonated people, compared it to FDR's fireside chats. But then this nursing home scandal happened. And for people who haven't been following that, there is credible evidence that he purposely manipulated numbers of the number of New Yorkers who died in nursing homes. And so to the degree that people were willing to overlook that asshole quality that you're talking about, they might have said, look, we don't like the guy personally, but he's been very effective. The moment that scandal came out, they realized he wasn't nearly as effective. He talked a good game in these press conferences, but behind the scenes, he was. He was manipulating the numbers. Suddenly his brand equity has dropped in two different areas on the personal and professional qualities. And that's why I think there really is probably no way of coming back from that. The question of whether he lasts to the end of his term might be an open question, but beyond that, I think it is very questionable.

Yeah, I agree with you as well. Well, like, like Governor Andrew Cuomo, I am fighting and screaming from walking away from this conversation because I could talk about Cuomo with you for hours. But here's the perfect point, that the linchpin that you brought up is his Emmy award. So back in November, he was given an award in recognition for his leadership during the COVID 19 pandemic and his masterful use of television to inform and calm people around the world. I know. I was impressed when I was watching it, because what he was doing, these were the acts straight out of, you know, my playbook is he was on video, it was being shared on social, he was using multimedia. He was charismatic. He was being a Cuomo. You know, you saw the touches of his father, Mario there. He was mastering it. And that's why the Emmy, you know, that's why he was given the Emmy on it, which they probably now regret. But he knew how to master the interview, the presser. And that's the reason why I brought you on the podcast today, because I think you are a master in educating people. You know how to master this medium. So I wanted to talk to you about some of the things that Cuomo did, right, Like, I'm sure that you share on with your clients that help them with, as you said, their brand equity there and, and how they can, you know, build their reputation and enhance it. So, Brad, I wanted you to share some of the, some of the thoughts that you have and the strategies that you have with your training. I know you do. You and I were talking before the podcast that your business is stronger than ever. Why do you think that is that people are coming to people like you and me for this training? Why is it important?

Well, I think for the two of us who have been thinking about these issues for a long time and preparing people for things like media interviews, the idea of a down the line interview or a remote style interview where you're looking directly into the camera and having a conversation with the audience, this is something that's not remotely new to us. We've been doing this for many years. Anytime you watch television and you see one guest in New York and the host in dc, You've been watching a remote style interview. But this is new to most people, and I'm going to generalize a little bit here, which is to say that I generally find that the younger people are, the more comfortable they are. With this. Why? Because they've grown up with a camera in their laptop. This is. They're the digital natives in this format. So looking into a lens and talking to somebody else's far from unique. But I think a lot of people understandably struggle with it, trying to animate a lens. And they really have to rely on the muscle memory that they've learned from in person communications and bring those skills to a zoom box, oftentimes where they can't even see their audience. They are in there, they're listening, but they're not visible on camera. So you might be at a keynote speaker at a conference, speaking to 2,000 people, none of whom you can see. But you still have to be engaged and energetic and passionate, not let the medium itself influence. But you know, Molly, I think in many ways, ultimately, if you think about the ways that people have communicated, whether it's in person, whether through a reporter, for a newspaper article or on the radio or for a podcast, or now in these remote style, all of these different forms of media have their own conventions that people need to learn in order to succeed in them. And, and so I think in many ways this is really nothing different. It's just learning a new media and learning what the conventions are so you're able to thrive when communicating through them.

So how you look at communicating now, who is coming to you as a customer? Is it someone who wants media training, as in news media training, or just having a Persona on camera, whether it's for meetings or whether it's a press conference? What is the need right now in March of 2021? Has that shifted at all since you've been started Your.

Yeah, it's some combination of both, but more on the second half of what you said than the first. And the other thing people are doing, in addition to their conferences, suddenly going virtual and needing to learn how to communicate. Because, you know, if you flashback maybe six months, maybe nine months, people were thinking, you know, for this year, we're going to have to move virtually. But that's it. Then we'll get back, the pandemic will end, we'll go back. And I think what people have realized is, yes, we're going to start opening back up. People are going to start gathering at workplaces and conferences again. But this doesn't go away. The remote part of this is now a permanent part of our culture, our businesses, and the way we communicate to each other. And I think in many ways that's a really good thing. You think about the person who, because of family, needs Disability, equity, financial, other issues are unable to travel somewhere who now suddenly, when there's that conference happening in Bangladesh or in London or in New York, they don't have to get on a plane and take a week off of their calendar in order to attend and even network, they can particip from where they sit and then they could go back to parenting or if they have a physical reason why they're unable to travel, they can still participate. So I think there's really useful and good things in there so these skills don't go away. And so to answer your direct question, what are we seeing in March 2021? It's people who have recognized that this was not just a blip during a pandemic, this is the new permanent way of being. So they're preparing for that and also understanding that that direct to camera video connection where they are speaking with their stakeholders in this way is something they better get good at because their competitors are getting better at it. So suddenly there is there, there's a recognition as other people have adjusted to the format well that they better too or they're going to be seen as people who are left behind.

Oh, absolutely, Brad. And that came up in a conversation yesterday. I presented yesterday I was supposed to be in Austin, Texas, speaking, and it would have been lovely to be in Austin, Texas, but instead I was, I was presenting and my son was standing outside my office with his soccer uniform on saying, are we going to soccer? So like I got to get my ride. And that was the benefit that I could end and do that. But I. You bring up such an important point, I don't think it's going away either. And even though some of our conferences are going to be back online in my mind and what I feel for myself and for clients and other people, my listeners, I think the hybrid model is here to stay because people have found how easy it is. So having said that, now we've established the of importance importance of it. Brad, I wanted you to share your three top insights or tips for someone listening now who's buying into. Well, yes, I think I have to master the, the video interview, you know, capturing myself on video. And I wanted you to provide me with three tips or tactics that you are sharing with your clients, your students who come to you for training that you feel are relevant or helpful in the environment that we're in. So tell me, like what is, what's your number one on the list?

Well, what I think about is one of those evergreen topics that has always, it has always been thus but in the age of social media, it almost feels silly to talk about in the age of social media. We've been living with it so long, it's almost like at this point saying in the age of oxygen. But, but you know, I mean just thinking about and sorry to date probably both of us equally here, but I've been doing this media relations and training for 20 years and Facebook didn't exist. Social media really didn't exist. There was no Twitter, there was no video sharing platform like YouTube. There were certainly no clubhouse and no live streams and no podcasts. These are all things that are new. And so I think certainly the first thing on the list is in Evergreen, it has always been thus the need for speed, as they said back in Top Gun has always been true, but magnified probably by a factor of 10. And you know, not only just the fact that news cycles themselves have accelerated. I think that ground has been talked about now for a couple of decades. And you know, famously the, the case study that still I hear people bring up the Tylenol case study, 1982, cyanide caplets.

No, people wait bring that up in a professional setting like speaking. They're still bringing up talent.

People will still bring that up or clients will occasionally bring it all the classic example, right. Because it still shows up in crisis communications. And by the way, for, for those people who are not, who are listening and not seeing this on video. Molly just crossed her arms, which is really interesting because your body language is even going. I can't believe they're talking about that dumb case study. But at the time, 1982, go back four decades, this is a great case study. And wow, Tylenol. Within a week they pulled their product off the shelf. You imagine a week. And I think so. So you know, the expectation that people start communicating very quickly, including often through video is obviously. But I think maybe the one thing that's a little bit less obvious that I've been finding lately, not only in crisis settings, but just in basic communication settings. I'll give you a concrete example. I'm working right now with a client who is doing a major rebrand. Basically their, their organization's name is going away and they are rebranding as something entirely new. And in working with them we've really been trying to establish what's that 30 second pitch? What is the 30 second edit has to be sharp and more than anything it really has to be differentiated from everybody else space in order to cut through. It has to be memorable, it has to be interesting. It has to be somewhat, I think, counterintuitive because if it's expected and logical, people are not going to pay attention to it. So it needs to catch their ear in some way. And the aha moment I guess I had during that work was 30 seconds is too long. Let's get it down to like the 7 or 10 second differentiated, sharp, attention grabbing pitch. So I think when we talk about the need for speed, it's not only in the accelerated speed of the news cycle, which I think is obviously apparent at this point, but that they have to distill their thinking into something so tight. My, my partner in, in our firm Throughline talks about what your Twitter answer. And so, okay, if you're making your pitch to investors, to the public, through the press, let's do it in 280 characters or less in a way that's so visceral and immediate that it gets the desired response. So I think that is different and, and new.

Yeah, certainly that brevity is key. And, and it's not just the response, it's not just the slogan. It is what problem are you solving in a moment's notice that you can capture someone. That's a really, really good point, Brad. You know, just to go back to Tylenol for a moment, where were you in, you worked in for CNN. Were you in D.C. or New York?

Correct. I was in D.C. you were in DC.

Were you there the same time? Like, were you there working CNN like in the early 2000s, late night?

You real. Yeah, late 90s, early 2000s, ABC News before that, the mid to late 90s.

Okay. I mean, isn't it amazing? Sometimes I think about it when I write about speed and how much time, you know, me from the public affairs end, you know, and you from the news end, how much time you all had to wait for information from people to provide something? Probably just sitting there, you know, tapping, like, where is it? Where is it that doesn't exist anymore? Like, we don't have that padding as, as a spokesperson or PR people or as an organization that needs to respond. It's gone.

No, because on the, on the journalism side. So I worked at, I'll just give you as an example, I worked at ABC News, the, the Ted Koppel show. Nightline. And Nightline was on at 11:35 at night. And the only thing for the most part that we had to do was get the show ready for air at 11:35 today. Somebody in the equivalent position would have to get the show ready for 11:35. The correspondent who produced the piece would have to do a radio hit with ABC Networks, different pieces for the Web, do a radio Prince interview to help publicize the show. They're doing six, seven, eight versions of the single story now. And so, you know, we talk about speed, but that's happening on the journalism side, too, where they just have to pop this out. And by the way, I didn't even mention Twitter.

Right? Yes, I know. That's a. That's a very good point. I did a TV hit two weeks ago about Cuomo in New York, and I thought, oh, sure, I have all afternoon prepare. And he said, no, we need it now. We need it like, immediately.

Yes.

I'm not even dressed for this. I'm not even on camera. Ready? All right. Okay. The need for speech, which will never change, and that speed will get tighter and tighter as we go on. What about the next idea?

What number two is? You know, so 20 years ago, when I started in this business, media trainers, for example, were still saying things like, don't answer the question you're asked. Answer the question you want to answer. I swear to you this is true. I am now catching up on the final season of Orange is the New Black. And Brad, I know I missed the final season, and I'm now catching up on it. And so I'm now on the episode. So last night, I was watching an episode where one of the prison administrators is talking to the new head warden of Litchfield Prison, and she's teaching that very idea to the warden, who is in the uncomfortable position of having to speak to a press about something she didn't believe in. And the administrator said to her, don't answer the questions. Just pivot to what you want to talk about. That's nonsense. That is now so old school. And so when I work with clients now, the starting point, I say this, we talk about this directly. I will often use this, these exact lines when speaking to the client about the crisis they're in. I will say I have a non disclosure agreement with you. So let's just talk frankly here. Let's start with the truth and go from there. Tell me what you would say if you could say exactly what happened without needing to hedge it for any reason. Let me just hear what that is, and then we'll go from there. And I would say probably 60, 70% of the time, we end up using everything that the person told me or an important part of it. There are times when the person can't say more. For example, if the person can't say more because even Though the facts are on their side. If they say the facts as they exist, they will alienate a key stakeholder, like a union, and. Or they will throw an employee under the bus who is still working with them, even though they may have made a dumb decision. So there are reasons sometimes that starting with the truth and going from there doesn't or can't end up in the public domain. And they're not obfuscating and they're not dishonest reasons. But I think people sometimes get so caught up in the idea that they need to spin or come up with a perfect media message that they actually forget that sometimes just starting with, well, what happened, can we talk about that? Oftentimes holds either part of or the complete answer that they can use publicly within it. So that is always the starting point. And I think the public expectation for that idea of people just being real and being honest and no bs, just tell me what's really going on is so much higher than it's ever been before, particularly in the age when anybody, everybody is a pundit in social media. And so I think, you know, even when admitting vulnerability and wrongdoing, in many cases it will lead to a far stronger response than somebody trying to say what's safe but leaving their stakeholders cold.

As you mentioned, when you discuss branding, how sometimes being counterintuitive is what grabs you, I share the same advice is the truth does not weaken you, it strengthens you. Because then you can work from a position of truth, and that's when you're at your strongest.

I was just going to add, you know, a lot of the conversations we're having with clients now are around these issues of diversity, equity, and inclusion. And when I go to their website sometimes and I look at their boards of directors or their leadership team, and I see a whole lot of white faces, and a lot of them are men. And so then I'll ask questions like, why do you have so many white men in your leadership? Why is there a lack of diversity? And I will get answers from them like, well, there's pipeline issues. Come on. We've been talking about pipeline issues for how many decades now. Go create a pipeline. You're probably looking in the wrong pipelines. This is not on the pipeline anymore. And make it, you know, come on. There's a lot of really big thinkers who have been helping to solve this problem. This is not only on the, the passive pipeline. And so what's the truth in that situation? The truth is, you're right, we have not done a sufficient job. We Agree that it's important we do better. And let me tell you what we are doing so that when you look at our website a year from now, it's not going to look the same anymore. That's the truth. And so let's start saying these things and admitting imperfection and failures with a commitment that you then, of course, have to follow up on for what you're going to do to correct those wrongs.

Brad, were you sitting in my session yesterday? Because this is what came up in the conversation about what. What do you do when your board is a bunch of. Of old, white, balding males and you're. You're coming out of 2020 into 2021, and 2021 on your website, it's still the same older, balding, white males, you know, on your board. And the answer is the truth. And it's not just that you're trying to create a new pipeline. You can show the messy parts. Hey, this isn't easy. We've never done this before. We have never sought for diversity. And you can show people the process of how you're doing it, show them the messy parts, because what that is like, you're speaking to. It's the truth, and it's real. And you're absolutely right. The BS meter. Oh, my gosh. No one has patience for BS anymore. Anyone can smell it a mile away. Okay, good. So so far, we're in lockstep with everything. I feel like I could have done this episode on my own, but it would be less interesting.

Well, you know, you would have been speaking to Cuomo by yourself, because, as you said, your kids will not be that audience for you. So I'm happy. Happy to at least serve that function.

The rantings of me in my room by myself, talking, screaming about Cuomo, just as an aside, one thing I learned about Cuomo, how many people I knew who know Cuomo or know people who work for Cuomo. The stories I don't know about you, the stories I'm getting out of that office are incredible. He really is who he is.

That's all I have to say. Oh, my gosh.

All right, now, number three, bring it home. What would be the. The third thing that. That you're sharing with your clients right now?

Okay, so number two, we talked about the importance of the truth. But even if you tell the truth, you're countering a sea of disinformation or misinformation. And that is something that we saw certainly in our federal government, but you see it in a lot of other Spaces too. And so I thought I would use this, the example of the COVID vaccine misinformation, or maybe I should call it vaccine hesitancy or vaccine skepticism. And you see, so I pulled a poll. This is now from last month. The numbers have changed a little bit, but this was a Time Harris poll released about a month ago in mid, mid to late February. And what they found was the question was, do you plan to get a COVID 19 vaccine once it is available? Asian American, 80% yes. White American, 58% yes. Black American, 34% yes. Now, obviously there are historical reasons why there is earned reluctance and hesitancy for vaccines, but it is not a coincidence that the first shot administered in the United States was given to a woman who volunteered the director of critical care at Long Island Jewish Medical center in Queens, New York, who oversees all intensive care patients, named Sandra Lindsay. It's not a coincidence that she is an African American woman. Part of fighting misinformation is not only having the right words and the right messages, but having the right messengers. And she's kind of a double messenger because one, she is of the group that expresses the greatest amount of or among the groups that express the greatest amount of reluctance or anxiety around the vaccine. And she's also a health care provider who's doing what she's preaching and not just preaching it. So I think that's a really important way as we think about how do you counter misinformation? To think about who's delivering the message. Again, that's not unique. We've always thought about that. But the fact is that you are now the salmon swimming upstream in an environment that is increasingly difficult, where if you are relying on your, your robust data set to get people to change their thinking or behavior, you are setting yourself up for great failure. So. So that's what I think is the third thing that we're having a lot of discussions with our clients science these days about.

Oh, Brad, very astute. And you and I both know there are enough media trainers around, you know, shake a stick out. They're absolutely everywhere. And this is the first time I'm hearing someone, you know, in, in our realm bringing up misinformation as an aspect of, a very critical aspect of this media response process. Now, a question I have for you, just for listeners here. I get this objection all the time. I'm going to assume that you get it as well. Part of the reluctance for being forthright and open with a response and giving that answer and getting down to the truth that I hear all the time is that if we say something or share something or post something, it will be taken out of context. And now hearing you, that is another almost example about misinformation. It's a fear of their information coming out misinformed. What would you say to someone with that concern?

Well, first, it's a legitimate risk. And even if you're doing something longer form like a podcast and you are in the context of, let's say, a 30 minute discussion, everything that you're saying makes sense and is carefully couched. But anybody, a blogger, somebody with bad intent on Twitter, can clip just 10 seconds and make that, that the thing that looks like it was your complete thought, even though it is completely removed from context. So there are people who have been thinking about this problem and unfortunately I'm forgetting the attribution. One of the people who shared it is a professor, I believe, at NYU of media named Jay Rosen, who talks about the truth sandwich as one way of trying to combat that. And the truth sandwiches because typically in media training what you say is, don't repeat the negative. Yes, don't repeat the negative. So you know, when somebody says, I did not have sexual relations with that woman or I am not a crook, what are people thinking about? They're thinking about the crook and they're thinking about sexual relations. So you don't want to do it. You would, you would try to cast those things if you're Richard Nixon, as I've always complied with the law, instead of I'm not a crook, because why associate crook with you? Fine. But this is a different view of that as a way of countering misinformation. And what they talk about is what they call a truth sandwich. The idea of a truth sandwich is that here's the formula. You begin with the denial. It's not true. What's true is X. Despite the fact that they have made this claim, what's really true is X. So you sandwich the lie between the two pieces of truth to refute the bad argument which you allude to in the middle. And the idea behind it is one. What's at the beginning and end of that soundbite is the refutation of that incorrect information. And by packaging it in the middle of, let's say a 10 or 15 second soundbite, you increase the likelihood that that's what the reporter or the press will use because it's tight enough that the entire thing, including the refutation at the top and the bottom and that piece in the middle that at least alludes to the piece of misinformation could all be used in a single answer. And so it reduces, in theory, the. The possibility of it being taken out of context because it's short enough that all three pieces of that can be used together. Together.

Now that is for you, mentioned in a media sound bite. Let's say you're doing an interview on camera, but what if you're being called out, you know, someone on Twitter is posting misinformation or your organization has posted something on their website and, and let's say an activist group has grabbed that one statement and they misconstrued it and twisted it around. What if someone doesn't have the opportunity to sit in front of a camera and do it? What could they do, you know, off camera? Any other, any tips or tactics that you share to help people combat misinformation?

Well, similar to the third point about fighting misinformation. And who are you going to have as the first person being vaccinated? I think having the third party surrogates who you have long established relationships with, who sometimes can speak on your behalf more effectively than you can, and choosing who those people are. I also think that, you know, when responding to those types of misinformation campaigns, one of the things I always say think needs to be asked, and there's not a single answer to this, but who are you speaking to? Are you trying to win over the people who are so hostile to you that there is virtually nothing you can say that will ever convince them? Or are you using their negative campaign against you as an opportunity to speak with everybody else who has an open mind, even those who are not necessarily persuaded either direction yet, but are at least open to hearing what you have to say. And I often think it's that group in the middle who ends up becoming the real audience that matters. And so you're using, by being so communicative and present and part of the story, instead of looking like you're hidden, you are at least able to reach those parties in the middle that watching both sides, one hostile, one throwing, you know, anything that'll stick to the wall versus one that's present and thoughtful and respectful, tends to be more successful in many cases at bringing people in their direction. And ultimately what you're trying to do is shorten the news cycle, or in this case, the social media news cycle. Yeah.

Which. Yeah. Which are one in the same nowadays. Oh my gosh, Brad, that's such good advice. It's, it's be quick, be speedy, be real, be yourself and be honest. And be truthful, you know, with that information. That's fantastic, Brad. Thank you so much. So what are you doing right now in terms of what are you offering to people for my listeners? What is the throughline group up to nowadays?

Well, we're doing our combination of media and public speaking training with an emphasis on remote training these days. Obviously one of the things I think that we really focus on doing is not only helping people with the, the physical aspects of body language and physical delivery, but as former journalists, really helping them shape and craft what the message is and to think through these issues of. Okay, so you might have critics and opponents and how are you going to frame a message if not to mute them entirely, because you probably can't, but how to be successful anyway and how to speak to the parties that you, you can. We're also offering open enrollment classes on the public speaking and media trading side, which is pretty exciting and something that we have not done. But now for the first time over the past year, we've been doing those. And they're really cool because you get people showing up. One person's with the government, one person is with a nonprofit, one person sells a product and the cross breeding of that is really cool because you have the person who sells a product, maybe a piece of software saying, here's what I hear when you software maker, I just say that when you, representative of a nonprofit organization, talk about your work and so you get feedback from people that are really in essence, proxies for what their real audience might be in real life, exchanging ideas and information. So as a trainer, it's really kind of cool because typically when we do trainings, it's people who work for the same organization to get people from many different sectors coming together. And as I say, kind of cross pollinating leads to some very unexpected and fun results.

Yeah. Oh, that's wonderful. Well, congratulations. And as a fellow, you know, trainer, it's. I'm so happy when I see other people in our field not only succeed, you know, and get through the year that we got through, but, but grow from it and you know, and thrive in this environment that we're in because it really shows the importance, importance and the need for this type of training because people that we're digital now and people are watching other people and so professionals like you. Thank goodness that we have you. I have one last question. How so let's go back to Andrew Gumo.

Oh no.

What is. Okay, what's gonna happen to him? Give me your final word. Does he run? He's not quitting. Right.

Okay. You're asking me for a guess. My best professional guess that I think has a 40% chance of happening, which would be the greatest odds of all of the potential outcomes, is that he remains in office through the end of his term and doesn't run again.

Yeah, I think that's the Gonzaga choice right now. Right. I think everyone's going with that.

I don't get that. I don't get that reference. What's the. Help me. What is the Gonzaga choice?

Brad March Madness. Did you not get your. Just.

You have just found your week. Oh, my God, I am so sports dumb. If It's. If it's 1980s professional baseball, man, I'm great outside of that, Molly. I am. I. I. You know what I do at night? I read my histories of. Of us and world history. These are the things I am excited about. I am so dumb when it comes to sports. So, you know. Anyway, I got through 40 minutes of this without revealing my dumb spots. But. But you've just found.

Okay, okay, smarty pants. Who won the 87 World Series?

Oh, Cardinals. St. Louis Cardinals. I believe that might be right. It's an American League team, so it's probably the car. It wasn't the A's, was it? Could that have been the A's? Okay, now you're seeing. Okay, 1980. Now you're putting me to shame, because, Molly, I'm never coming back on your podcast again. You can. You could just argue into the wind on Andrew Cuomo by yourself.

No.

Okay, that was World Series in 1987.

You'll get it from this. The homer hankey, the Minnesota Twins.

Oh, that's okay. The Kirby Pucket years.

Was it the Kirby Pucket? There you go. See?

So we'll leave on that note of redemption.

Yeah. God, Kirby Puckett. Oh, my gosh. No, Brad. Okay, it's okay. We'll give you the pass. Everyone had their brackets busted. No one's paying attention anyway, so don't worry about it, Brad. But you may not know March math, but you know media. You are mad about media. You know what you're doing, and you're one of my favorites. And when people ask, I always leave them to you, because you really are a master at this. And you've done it. You've done the work, and you. You've worked behind the scenes as a journalist. So everything that you're bringing and saying today is so true.

So, Brad, if I could just return the favor quickly and say the professional approach you use to represent our industry moves it forward. So thank you for, thank you for the work you do that makes all of us look better.

All right, Mutual admiration society. Thank you so much, Brad. My thanks to Brad Phillips for bringing some of the topics he delivers in his trainings and workshops to the podcast and for being such a good sport about his lack of interest in the sport of college basketball in in March. He's such a good guy. I have so much fun with him. But for more information about Brad's media and presentation trainings, you can find him at throughline group.com he also has an excellent blog about all things media training. You can find him on Twitter @ Mr. Media Training. And you can be sure when Governor Cuomo hangs it up, whenever that is is, he will be tweeting about it and so will I. We'll be tweeting about it together. All right, everyone, thanks for listening. I'll see you back here same time next week. Bye for.