14: How to Talk About Racism Without Sounding Like a Racist

Welcome back to the Confident Communications Podcast. I am your host Molly McPherson. This week on the podcast my guest is author Jeffrey Blunt. I wanted Jeffrey on the podcast for many reasons. The first because of his accomplishments at work. He is an Emmy Award winning television director who spent the better part of his career at NBC working out of the Washington D.C. bureau. He directed a decade of Meet the Press helping take the show from a half hour in the early Tim Russert years to the hour format we see Today. He directed the Sunday Today Show, Today show and Washington portions of the NBC Nightly news for over 15 years and also 11 years of the Chris Matthews Show. A lot of good work out of that D.C. bureau from Jeffrey Blunt. He also has written scripts for film and interactives that are now on display, including the interactive exhibit Follow the Green Book. It's currently at the Smithsonian Museum of African American History and Culture. Go see the Academy Award nominated film and then plan to visit the museum. I watched a clip of the video that Jeffrey scripted online and you can see and feel what it would be like to be a black motorist traveling in the Deep south in the 60s. Definitely an exhibit that you want to see if you travel to Washington dc.

Also in Washington DC was one of.

My favorite interactive exhibits of all time. It was called eyewitness a 4D time travel adventure that was housed at the Newseum, which I just read is closing or at least hopefully transferring to another location. He also authored three books, Hating Heidi Foster, Almost Snow White and the Emancipation of Evan Walls, which is set to be published in spring of 2019. Jeffrey is also an accomplished speaker commenting on issues of race and social justice, which is the reason why I wanted to speak with him on the podcast this week. Jeffrey is one of the most eloquent yet poor writers I know on the subject of race. Jeffrey Blunt, the author has written articles in Huffington Post and many other news websites that you will want to read if you are not a person of color. And there is a polarizing story in the news where race plays a part. I scheduled this episode to air in the beginning of February, Black History Month.

We did discuss a huge news story.

About race that had just happened in the news. The boys of Covington Catholic come to Washington D.C. and wouldn't you know it, another story breaks before we're even published. As I record this introduction, we are still waiting to hear if Virginia Governor Ralph Northam will step down after it was revealed that he may or may not have worn blackface in his medical school yearbook photo, but he did admit to wearing it In a dance contest, which he won, by the way, for his ability to moonwalk. He won a Michael Jackson contest. Oh, how I wish Jeffrey and I could have chatted about this story.

So we are still waiting to see.

When and it will be a when Governor Northam resigns. But there is no more need to wait to hear Jeffrey. Here he is.

Hello, Jeffrey.

Hi, how are you?

I. Here's my honest answer. I'm nervous.

Why?

I'm nervous for two reasons. One, because I'm speaking to someone who is so accomplished, but also I think it's the topic matter. I had to kind of reflect and feel, okay, why am I so nervous? I've talked to you a number of times. You don't make me nervous. You get me excited people to talk to. But as soon as I touch on the subject matter of today's podcast, when it comes to race, yes, I had to stop and pause and listen to how I felt inside. And it makes me nervous. And that is the reason why I wanted to speak to you specifically about this subject matter because I think it's a, well, one, it's a conversation that's come up a lot in just my day to day in my work, you know, because I meet a lot of different people in a lot of different parts of the country. But now, more than any time in my life, I feel that I am talking about the subject of race a lot more. We're hearing about it, but I find myself not knowing how to speak about it and share with, with, with the listeners. What is the best way to speak about race without being worried or scared or more importantly, sound like a racist?

Well, I think particularly a lot of white Americans, and I speak particularly about Americans because this is, you know, an American experience and the way we are seeing and dealing with race. And a lot of white Americans are afraid to broach the subject even though you hear from black Americans. We need to talk about this more. We need to lay this on the table. But as you said, people are afraid of being called a racist. People are afraid of saying something that can be construed as insensitive and can hurt someone. It's a minefield. It's the third rail. It's everything you want to call it about trying to, you know, about causing a disturbance in the force with regard to race in this country. The one thing that I have found in particular for white Americans, and I put it this way, because when we talk about race ism, we are talking about a construct of white Americans and obviously we're not talking about modern day white Americans, but we're talking about the legacy and historically, from my perspective, we're speaking from the African American perspective. In my experience, the best ways for this to happen is for a white American to sit down with a black American and say, I would like to speak to you about race. And here is why I want to talk to you about it. I am unsure of how to raise a subject. I am afraid of making a mistake. I want to tell you what's on my heart and I want you to understand that I want to say this in the spirit of growth. And I might say something that's stupid. I might say something that could be considered insensitive in the open area if we were with a bunch of people. But I'm here with you and I would like you to understand that I'm human. I'm going to make mistakes. But hear me out and let me hear you and let's find common ground.

Now, it should be noted that I haven't even mentioned yet that you are African American, which is primarily the reason why I asked you to speak. But also you speak so eloquently about race, and that is important. But also you have such an accomplished legacy right now. I mean, you've done so much. Tell us briefly about your past and what brought you here today to speak about race and to be such a prolific writer now coming up on your third book.

Well, I think the thing that makes me, you know, I like to tell people I'm an expert in blackness. And most African Americans would say that it's your experience. I mean, it is the great and constant conflict in the lives of every African American. You cannot escape it. You become an expert at it at a young age.

Tell us about your young age. Can you tell us about where this all started? You're from rural Virginia, correct?

I'm from rural Virginia, a small town called Smithfield, Virginia. I grew up on a farm. I went to segregated schools until I was in the fifth grade. I grew up with listening to the older black folks in my church and in social groups warning you to be afraid of white people, to be careful of white people because of what could happen to you. Because you could have. Anything could happen to you and there'd be nothing you can do about it. I've had a couple of experiences since then where I was in that situation and had that fear. So I understood what they were talking about. But I also was in a family where my parents, and this is religious, based on their part in believing that all people were inherently Good people. And even though they suffered, you know, the tragedy of racism constantly in their lives, and I think about the lives they could have had sometimes if they were not experiencing, you know, Jim Crow or if they had grown up in the time that I had with much more opportunity. But even with all of that, they taught my brothers and I that we, we should greet people and shake hands with people with open hearts. And then if people immediately showed you that they were full of hate, if they immediately showed you that they were, you know, that their life was based in racism, then you need to walk away and take care of yourself. On the other hand, if people open their hearts to you and we're good people and we're trying to do the right thing, try to meet them where you can, halfway, three quarters way, whatever. Because when you change the mind of one person, you change the mind of that person's family, maybe that person's children and so forth and so on.

Your story of origin clearly lays out the path that you've chosen. You're very open minded. It sounds as if just from how you're speaking now, that you see two sides of the story which would lead you directly into a field which probably fits naturally with this mindset. So tell us about how you got into journalism.

I got into journalism actually from back in high school. I wrote an article, a letter to the editor. I was actually working at the town newspapers weekly, and I was delivering papers on Wednesdays and the other days as the paper was getting ready back in the days before computer, and they were cutting and pasting and sticking out stuff and then printing it out. And I just had this little thing that I would go around the floor and scrape up all the paper and sweep and all that kind of stuff until it was time to deliver the papers. And there was a conflict over building a new school for a new public school which was majority African Americans. And some white people didn't want it, and African Americans were fighting for it. So two friends of mine who were two white guys, we decided that we wanted to speak out. I was the better writer of the three. So I wrote this letter. We gave it to. I took it to work with me and gave it to the managing editor at the time. And he read it and he called me into his office and he said, so you guys wrote this thing? And I thought, I wrote it, we're standing behind it. So then he took me into the office of the, the owner, the publisher, and they sat me down and they made me a cub reporter and I started doing feature Stories. I covered some football games. I wrote a great, in my mind a great article about my great grandmother who at the who is actually honored and represented in my upcoming novel. And that was the beginning. He, he then took me to college, Virginia Commonwealth that I went to and introduced me to the, the journalism school there. I went to school there. And you know, in the. And here I am.

And here you are. But before that you had a pit stop in a, in a smaller market, I believe. Was it in Virginia where you met your wife Jean?

That's right. That's right. Well, I went to college at Virginia Commonwealth University in Richmond, Virginia and I met Jean at the CBS affiliate there over the AP wire machine.

Oh, how romantic.

Yeah. Standing over either on one side of the wire machine and a guy named Mike Andre introduced us. We shook hands across the wire machine and here we are.

Was it love at first AP wire?

Yes, it was. I like that. She'll like that.

Well, your wife Jean, this is where we intersect because your wife Jean Maserve, an award winning correspondent at CNN and before that at ABC News. She's world renowned, I think, and she's so talented now, I mean that, you know, her post CNN career is where we first worked together, you know, at the communication center as media trainers. But prior to that when she was at cnn, I worked with her when I was working in public affairs in fema. And I think the last time officially we saw each other was at a hurricane, was at Hurricane Ike. But we, but you know, love Gene and your family is so accomplished. You have your son, your son Jake, your younger son Jake, who is a musician, recently graduated from college. And, and what is he doing now, Jeffrey?

He is doing great. He is traveling the world. He is, you know, the accomplished musician. He got his degree in ethnomusicology to study African American and Native American contributions to old time American music. People would say to us he's gonna be a musician and you're okay with that? And well, you know, first of all, he was above the age of having to ask us our opinion. But secondly, it's his dream and being a writer and being, you know, consider myself a bit of an artist in that regard and it's a great thing for us to see. We're so happy for him.

Well, and I wouldn't be surprised, you're based out of Washington D.C. and who would ever think that being a musician would be, what, more profitable than working for the federal government? He's doing much better than most of the people in your neighborhood.

Oh, that is so true.

And then your older daughter, Julia, and many people already might know Julia without knowing Julia, because she was. I don't know if she would be the first Blount to be, you know, published, but she's the one that wrote the article in salon.com that went viral, like, the true definition of viral. And her article, dear White Facebook friends, I need to respect what black America is feeling right now. It appeared in salon.com I, you know, I believe in 2015. Correct?

That's right, yeah.

Yep. And that was around the time of. Tell me. Back then, it was what, in. In Baltimore?

It was Baltimore. Freddie Gray dying in the back of the police van. But, you know, it was more of. About the. The cumulative effect of all the things that had been happening there with regard to African Americans, and not just African American men, because there were women, too, and police officers who were dying. And many, including both my kids, found this to be incredibly disturbing, and they found it to be a harbinger of possible bad things and in their lives. And, in fact, Jake grew up in a community, and 18 years into that community, when this kind of stuff was happening, an older white male challenged him as to why he was in his own neighborhood. So Julia was, you know, had had enough and wanted to make a statement and wanted to, you know, do. What we talked about at the beginning of this podcast is she wanted to reach out and make a statement about race. If you want to understand and get better in dealing with race, hear me, is what she's saying to her friends. Listen to my heart. And this is not done in anger. I want you to know how I feel, and if there's a human bone in you, you have to see my pain. You have to come to me and say, how can we fix this? And that's what she was hoping to do.

Well, she certainly did, and people did hear her. Do you happen to know, dad, how many shares of that article are on Facebook as of 2019?

I do not.

842,000 shares of Julia's article. And when I. So when I first read that article, I remember being incredibly moved by it, partially envious by someone's child who was so accomplished. And I thought, oh, I hope someday, you know, my child can understand what it would feel like to have such a poignant, personal message be, you know, be spread around to so many people and to go viral in that moment. But I will say how I looked at it then compared to now. So it's been a few years now now, in terms of my background, I'm from the Twin Cities. I'm from St. Paul, Minnesota. My, you know, I grew up in a predominantly, you know, Catholic neighborhood. You know, everyone was Irish Catholic. And the only diversity that I had growing up was. Was friends who were Lutheran from Minneapolis. I mean, truly, there was no diversity. There was no people of color, you know, growing up. So I wasn't fully aware of it. It's only when you move back east, and I live in Boston, I live in Washington, D.C. that you're faced with it. And that's when your frame of reference starts to form. You know, what is my understanding of this? When I read Julia's article, I feel it was one of the first times I was able to put myself in the shoes of someone else, because I think that's part of the problem. And to talk about specifically what she had talked about in her article. She said, in childhood, people regularly ask, what are you? Instead of who are you? A few years later, on a road trip with her mom, Jean, you refuse to get out of the car at a gas station in the boondocks because you are sure the person with a Confederate flag bumper sticker is going to realize your white mother is married to a black man and hurt her as a teenager, being the only person of color in the majority of your AP classes, even though there are a decent number of brown and black people at your school, in college, people assume you get into Princeton because of affirmative action. And then in adulthood, as you mentioned, your younger brother being stopped in his own neighborhood. Now, when I read this again, 2019, just prior to speaking with you here, what this has defined to me is white privilege. Would you agree?

Yes, I would, absolutely.

Could you explain that?

Well, I mean, I think she's trying to let people know that they can move in the world in a way that she can't. And they are given breaks that she won't give, that she can't get, and that she has fears that other people, other, you know, white. Her white counterparts do not, you know, they don't have to worry about if they're just walking down the street and they see the Confederate flag. I mean, they can understand what it means. But that person looking at them sees another white person and there's no threat. She has to worry about the fact that she has a skin color that, you know, might draw the ire of those people who are. Who have the flag. Or if she's walking with her white mother, they might want to hurt the mom because she's obviously with a black man. You know, Jean. And I Went to visit a Civil War site when we were dating in Virginia. And we got, you know, and so I knew something was possible to happen. I mean, I. I grew up in Virginia. I understood what it meant to go to places like this. But she wanted to see this site. And Jean, I should tell you, is from New England. You know that. But so when we got there, we ended up leaving fairly quickly because we were basically chased out. And people were calling, you know, the N word and calling her the N word lover. And it was an experience. And so what that moment kind of crystallizes is a white person, you know, the love of my life, learning what her privilege had been until she attached herself to a black man and then having to deal with some of the things that he had to deal with.

Would it be accurate to say that was the first time that Jean experienced it?

I don't. Yes. With that kind of hostility. Yes. I mean, we understood that. We were living in Richmond, Virginia, when we started dating. You know, it's, you know, the capital of the Confederacy. She was an anchor woman. And, you know, and we understood that that would be. Those would be difficult things for a lot of people to understand. But. So this was public. This was. Nobody cared that she was on tv. This was just, you know, raw hatred and racism. And I think she definitely had not thought of it or felt it in that regard.

Why do you think white people are so bad at talking about race if you had to have an opinion?

Well, I think part of it is guilt. That is not necessarily right. I mean, if you are a white person today, obviously you didn't enslave anybody. You don't have slaves. And I think people who are concerned about racism feel good guilty about the things that African Americans have to deal with. I say that white Americans today, it's not about guilt. It's about understanding history. It's about understanding when I read what the minister had written about the power of white America to write, to change history, to quash dissenting views and all those kinds of things, that's what racism is. That's the institution of race ism.

Okay, so if we needed to filter it down to the basics, right. In general, if you are meeting a white person and when they address you, is it ideal for them to make the situation colorblind, or should the race be addressed?

Well, it should never be colorblind because then you ignore who I am. But here's how I would. This is my one piece of really good, I think, really good advice for white people who really want to Talk to African Americans about race. Approach the situation with your humanity on your sleeve. Approach the situation letting that person know that you are above all, above all, the mistakes you could make in talking about this, that your heart starts your politics and your heart and your belief starts with, you are human, I am human, we are equal. Now, here's this construct of race. I want to figure this out with you so we can relate on the basis of our humanity rather than on the basis of our skin color.

Okay.

It's like what my mom and dad say. You look for the kindness in someone first, and if you can present that to someone, then they're going to be more open to talking to you. It's a lot of black people, and I'm not speaking for all black people, but a lot of black people carry a defensiveness in them.

I was going to say when you said that, I'm always listening to my feeling like, what is this stirring up inside of me? And when you mentioned that a white person needs to wear their humanity on their sleeve, what I heard, based on your history, when you were telling us about growing up in rural Virginia and how you grew up, would part of that. Would we be touching the nerve of fear that you do not know how this person is looking at you? Could this person be racist? Like, is it a defense mechanism?

Oh, yeah. From the black person point of view, absolutely. I want to tell you a little story. I was, you know, teaching a course at Georgetown, George Washington University, and I was leaving the restroom, I opened the door and I almost bumped head on into this white guy. And I can't remember what was happening in the news at the time, but it was some issue that. Where race was an issue. And we looked at each other for a second and he smiled at me and he put his hand on my shoulder as he walked by. He just, you know, as we. As I moved aside to let him in and walk by first, it was that he locked eyes with me, he smiled at me, and he put his hand on my shoulder as he walked by. That man could be my friend. And that man showed me in that second without saying a word, that humanity comes first. Your humanity, your person first. Now we can go and sit. That's a guy. I can go and sit down and talk about race because I know he's got a heart. And he saw me as a human being and he was trying to transmit that.

And what's interesting, you did say that you were teaching a class. You are the journalist in residence, a Shapiro fellow at gw, which is Such a. Just one of your many accomplishments. And, Jeffrey, did you know that you're on their Twitter page, Their Twitter cover page?

I did not see all these things.

That I tell you about you. Oh, my gosh. All these impressive things. You know, again, I think anyone listening to your words right now are slowly understanding it. It's like they're walking in your shoes and looking through life in your eyes. And for me, I feel that's the key for anyone that isn't of color. It's that understanding of what it's like.

Oh, yeah. Because every. When you walk into a room, some people say, well, you walk into a room and everybody turns towards you because you've got such charisma. Not about me, but you've heard that phrase in general about the person who walks in, and everybody knows that person has it. Well, the other side of that is you walk into that room, particularly depending on where you are, many times at NBC or times at gw, and you are the only black person in the room, and people turn to you for that reason, and you wonder, right then as you walk in and sit down casually and try to say hi, who doesn't like you because of the color of your skin? So for the first few minutes, as the only white person in the boardroom, or that, you just have to filter, and you missed a whole lot of stuff because you're just trying to go around the table and figure out who actually is going to be hostile to you and who is, and that's how you live your life. What I realized as a black person is that I have to bring understanding to the table, too. If I want it to work, I have to do what my parents taught me to do. I have to be open. I have to check my anger at the door. And if I really, really want this to happen. And so I have to try. I have to put myself at risk to reach out there, to see who will meet me halfway. Let's have a conversation and see where you are. And then if you tell me and if you sit there at the table, I'm going to be frank with you. If you sit there at the table and pull out your MAGA hat, that's it for me. You know that. Then now you cross the line that my parents would say it's time to walk away.

Okay, let me ask you specifically about the mega hat. Define it in your terms. The Make America Great Again red hat that. That first was prominent during candidate Trump's campaign, Right.

Well, you have a man who said, we can. I. You know, I can grab women wherever I want to grab them and nothing will happen. You have a man who disparages people of color as being, you know, low iq and you know that all of these people coming up from Central America are rapists. And every Latino man is a member of Ms. 13 or every judge of Hispanic background is not qualified because he's Hispanic. It's a legacy of racism and sexism and Islamophobia and everything else from this man who is in our White House. That hat is his symbol and he uses it to make a political point. If you put that hat on and sit down across the table from me, you are delivering your candidates message. And you have to understand that it's a free country. You are free to wear the hat, but I'm free to tell you you're a jerk for wearing it too. And I will.

Now, is there an argument for people that are wearing it or wear the accoutrements and the merch of the campaign that aren't doing it for those race this racist, xenophobic reasons, but just like they happen to just be conservative Republicans?

No. Here's what I mean, here's what we have to realize. All of us are affected by racism and the struggle of race in this country. We are raised in our history books, it's in our DNA. And all of us have to own that fact if we want to get past this problem. Now, with that in mind, you have to understand that when you wear something, whether it's a Confederate flag or when you wear something, the MAGA hat, you have to own all of it. You don't get to cherry pick. You don't get to say, oh, I just wear this because of the policy. No, because your candidate uses it to reflect more than that. And when you put it on your head and you sit across from me and you chant at me, then you were sending something more than just your politics. You're signaling something more than just your politics.

This hat had a secondary role in a big news story over the weekend when Nicholas Sandman, he is a student from Covington Catholic in Kentucky and he along with a number of his fellow male classmates were attending a protest. Sounds like there were three, three groups marching at the same time in Washington D.C. and the mega hat did have. It was almost like its own character of the story.

Right.

What do you think? What role did that hat play in that news story?

I think it automatically. Well, first of all, let me not excuse any hatred that was going on at that time from any of those groups that were There, let me just say that. But again, in any kind of confrontation with regard to race, all the symbols, you know, make things more heated. So if I were to show up in a Black Panther outfit, to me, I mean, that I would be full of. I'd be proud to be wearing my Black Panther outfit. But a lot of white people would immediately consider me as a militant and ready to hurt them, kill them or whatever, that kind of thing. If I'm trying to make a friend or to cross a line, I'm going to choose not to do things that will put that person on a defensive, Defensive stance right away. Because there is a greater good. If you. If it's all just about your politics, if it's all just about wanting to talk about the issues, then understand when you put that hat on, it clouds the vision of the people you want to talk to. So if you really want to reach them, take the hat off and then let's talk policy. But if you show up with a hat from a guy who's called me every racist name and talks about women like their property, I'm not going to hear the policy.

Okay, so the hat is a symbol, but it's almost a part of the costume or a uniform that someone with a very specific point of view is wearing. So when you see it as a. As a black man, it's a very deliberate symbol that is going to immediately. I don't know if it's going to cloud, but cast a patina on that relationship that you have. You're already going to be on guard.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And I have to tell you, it's more than being on guard with that situation. To me, it is beginning to rival the hood of a Klansman. And so if I'm not having a conversation with a Klansman and I'm, you know, maybe somebody else can infiltrate and change minds. But, you know, I grew up in the South. I had enough of that in my lifetime. There are plenty of people, There are plenty of good people who I can associate with rather than trying to deal with that kind of hate.

Now, Jeffrey, when you mentioned the hat, you. To me, you sounded very cautious as you were connecting the mega hat with the, the white pointed hat. Do you feel like it's getting closer in terms of. Of showing and displaying the. An equal amount of hate?

Yes. I mean, I. Obviously, nobody's killed anybody wearing a MAGA hat or lynched anybody wearing a MAGA hat. So that. Let's, let's be clear about that difference. But what's growing is the feeling of people of color and not just African Americans and women. And that this hat symbolizes the stances of the man at the top. And when you wear it, you're wearing it to show that. And you can't separate yourself from it. You can't just say, I'm wearing it because it comes with a whole package. And so it is growing in its intensity. And I do believe that it is beginning to. Without the, without the physical, you know, damage that came along with the hood. It's beginning to rival it in terms of its symbolism. And the battle and the Confederate battle flag, they're all. He's falling right in line with that. And it is really hard. If you sincerely want to talk to a black person and have a real consideration and have a real communication about race, don't sit down with a MAGA hat on and say, I want to talk about race. Nobody's going to give you their heart.

Understood. Understood. When you just mentioned communicating sincerely about any conversation. So let's take, take, let's make it not charged conversation, but just day to day conversation.

Right.

Okay, now I. Getting into the language, the lexicon of when, you know, just discussing race when it's in the room, not the elephant in the room, but it's there. So I had asked you earlier, do, do you want someone that's white approaching someone a non white? So if we're talking, speaking to someone of color, you don't want them to be colorblind. You want them to be aware that you know who, who I am. Let's start at its most basic. And I don't even know the answer to this.

Okay.

In 2019, when I'm referring to someone, and if I wanted to describe you, for instance, are you African American or are you black?

I'm both. And I would not be offended if you said either. Either one.

Okay. Could you explain, is there a preference or is there a slight. Is there. Are they defined differently in some way?

Well, I want to go back and tell you something honestly that happened to me when I was a kid. There was an older black man and I actually put, I put this in conversation in my book that's coming up. I put several lines in there. Someone had mentioned to him in conversation. And I love to sit at the feet of older people and listen to their conversations. And they were talking about being black, which was a conversation that happened all the time. And someone, they were talking about the time, it was around the time of black power, and there was a discussion of, you know, how we identify ourselves as, you Know, black people, black power, this kind of stuff. And then, you know, colored was on its way out. So there was that conversation. Then a few years later, were having a similar conversation with the same folks in my family, and one of them, my extended family, on my mom's side, and they raised the issue of being African American. And the older gentleman said, you know, I don't know what we are. You know, one day I'm like. Because by now he spans several generations. You know, he's an older guy, and he's like, first I'm colored, then I'm black, then I'm Afro American, then I'm African American, and I'm confused. And that's what he said. And this is a black American. He said, I'm confused. Who am I?

Okay, okay, fair enough. Fair enough. So everyone's confused.

Yeah, but if you. In the political world and the way most people are identified in terms of articles and when you hear black people speak about themselves today, they go back and forth. African American, I would say, is the. More. If we were talking about it in terms of language, if you were writing is the formal, and black is the informal. So if we're casually talking and you mention black and you say, that's fine. If I'm sitting in a boardroom or I'm sitting. If I'm writing a newspaper article or I'm, you know, less than casual with you, then you're going to say, you probably want to say African American. So that's how I would. That's how I would see it. And again, I don't speak for all African Americans, but that's how I would see it.

Can I tell you, that is the first time I have ever heard of that. If I had to define the difference, an African American is a black person who was born in America, where a black person is just someone with black skin. So if. If a child was adopted from Ethiopia, they would be black, but if they were born in the. Okay. And I don't know, I think many, many white people might think that. Like me, you know, but this is the first I've ever heard formal, informal.

Yeah, well, you know, that's always. It would be that simple if white. If we didn't already have the legacy of being called black in the 60s and the 70s. And so those of us who were then, you know, in our childhoods and, you know, in early teenage years and rebellious and all those kinds of things, black was a powerful status symbol, and nobody gives that up.

Am I oversimplifying it? If I compare it to Caucasian and white, where Caucasian is probably more formal. That's what you would put on a form somewhere. Okay.

No, I don't think that's oversimplifying, and I think that's very true.

Okay, so if I'm discussing, if I want to talk about diversity in corporate culture, diversity in a boardroom, it's perfectly appropriate and fine to say Asian, black, female. Yes, it's all the same with, okay, incredibly valuable information. I had no idea. So many, so many decades, and I had no idea. Let me go through a list now, speaking about the terms, because I think, you know, white. Do you know white people can avoid direct racial language, and a lot of time it's based off of fear of insulting someone and they just don't know. Like, you just cleared up one. I'm going to name some phrases, euphemisms here. If you could just quickly define it for me, tell me how would it makes you feel? So what is your simplified definition of white privilege?

That white people can they have opportunity that to live life without the restrictions of people of color.

Okay, how about a racial bias?

A racial bias is a person who, whether they know it or not, it could be implicit bias, carries derogatory feelings, or about people of the opposite color or a different color. And it create. It clouds their activity, how they react to those people, how they act around them, how they, if they were boss, how they were hired them, all those kinds of things.

Okay, what about the term, and this is a very probably millennial term, white splaining?

Well, I mean, that is sort of, you know, like mansplaining. If I'm trying to talk to women about how they should feel, whitesplaining would be not listening, but telling me what it means to be black and how I should be feeling about a certain issue around my blackness without any information or without asking me about what my feelings are with regard to it.

Okay, is it racist for someone to know, not understand what a black person is going through? Like maybe they're not aware of the challenges that they have? Or is racist a very direct, implied act against someone? Can someone be a casually racist or unwittingly a racist person without knowing it? Or is racist being racist more deliberate?

Well, that's a great question that goes back to the fact that all of us are affected by race. We are born in this country infected by racism, and so we cannot separate ourselves from it. There are people who operate, like I said, with very good hearts who don't know that they're doing things that are racist. Or that are offensive. They think they're good people and they are good people. They just don't understand and they haven't taken the time to understand how they affect other lives. Racists with a capital R are people who are actively trying to undermine a black person or black culture or, you know, or turning the systems against black people in terms of people who are in power at state legislators or Capitol Hill or whoever, who are legislating against the lives or the growth and the opportunity of black people. That's active racism or physically active racism when you calling out somebody by name and attacking them, calling them the N word or something. So that's active racism.

Okay.

So before you had mentioned your book and before we discuss your upcoming book, I wanted to ask you a question about your time at NBC. Now, I mentioned in the introduction that you were a longtime director at NBC working in the Washington, D.C. bureau. You spent a number of years at Meet the Press and then you transitioned to be the director of the NBC Nightly News with former anchor Brian Williams, correct?

Yes. Yes.

Were you there when Lester Holt. You were still there when Lester transitioned to Lester Holt?

Yes.

Okay. All right. Now your time at NBC. Any highlight in particular that you can tell us about working at NBC?

Well, I was the first African American to direct the Today show. So that's. Yeah, yeah.

Wonderful.

Yeah. And let's see. Well, I took, I was a director that took, I participated in helping to take Meet the Press from a third ranked show, which was a half hour at the time, to an hour and number one by long shot, working with Tim Russert, who is he, who is a moderator at the time. One of my great moments was the Gorbachev Reagan summit here in Washington and spending a week in and around the White House in the Oval Office and doing interviews in the Oval Office and being there for the actual summit, watching the kgb, watch the CIA, watch the CIA, watch kgb. Just being in positions that I never thought I would be in as a child growing up on the farm, that one day you're in the personal quarters on the family quarters of the White House, sitting across from the president and the first lady, having a conversation, but also being able to sit and direct shows like Meet the Press and Nightly News and Today's show and have that responsibility and be successful at it and be able to look back on that career and know that you had, you know, you're a farm boy, you met a huge challenge and you passed. And you can look back on it and be thankful.

Yeah. And one, you should be incredibly proud of because what an accomplishment and what a fun job. My goodness, who wouldn't want to have a job at NBC? Now, speaking as a woman in the 2554 demographic and a longtime NBC viewer, I have seen the trajectory of the NBC brand and I wanted to ask you about. Now, this is after your time, you know, once you retired from NBC, about Megyn Kelly.

Yes.

And the Megyn Kelly she was in October, of course, was right around Halloween. So she was criticized for on air remarks that she made on her show, which I think was God awful, by the way. I mean, I could not watch that show for two minutes. She was just so ill suited for that, for that job and even being on morning television. But at any rate, we all know that she had made the comment about, about blackface that when she was a kid, that it was okay as long as you were dressing up like it was a character. Now, what were your thoughts when you, when you, I don't know, you. I assume you were not watching that live, but when you heard that. Yeah. When you heard that story, what did you think?

I thought it was. I was not surprised.

Why?

Because of her background and what I had seen. What a lot of Americans, again, not speaking for every American, but I know a lot of Americans found her to have a problem with people of color and that she displayed that on the air often. And so it doesn't take much of a leap to think that if you're feeling, if you have those thoughts and you, you get in certain situations, you start talking, you're not thinking, those things come to the fore whether you want them to or not. And, and so I was not surprised when, when that slipped out or that she had no understanding, as an American of a person of her age that she never read or understood what blackface was. Now, I think she could have said, you know, when we were kids, we did this and we were stupid because, you know, nobody had educated us about how horrible this was.

Right.

It might have been taken a whole different way, but she did. It was like, oh, well, as long as you're a character, it's fine. So, you know, but I wasn't surprised.

Yeah. And I think almost every Gen Xer who heard that story immediately went back to Halloween and thought to themselves, did we do that? Would I have done that? No. And I think everyone was in agreement. That was never appropriate. I never recall a Halloween where I would ever do that. Right now, I wanted to move on. Now, you are an accomplished author. You published two books, one of which was a book report. Done by my daughter Kathryn, hating Heidi Foster. And then you also wrote about another. Your second book was Almost Snow White. Okay, so now you have a theme here. Tell us about your third book that's coming out in the spring.

Well, again, talking about race being the constant, you know, concern and conflict in my life, this one also has something to do with race, although hating high. Foster did not, I might say, but this does. And this is a little bit a different take on race. So we've talked about the difference between when white people and black people, you know, face off in terms of race or try to cross the, you know, the ravine from one side to the other to meet and. But also the other legacy of racism is what it has done to the African American community. So if you look at it like you were looking at a family, and let's say in a, you know, stereotypical movie family, dad is a raging alcoholic, and you see this in the kids. And he physically abuses mom and the kids, everybody is walking on eggshells. The kids react in different ways of taking it in. And then you fast forward 25 years later, one son is carrying on like dad and doing the same thing to his family. Another child is in, you know, having conversation with a psychologist, trying to get over it. Another child is incapable of living because of what happened in that house. So now you take, if you transfer that to the African American community as as much Martin Luther King said, you know, you go through slavery and then you're freed into a position of freedom and famine because nobody, you can't get a job, you can't own property and all this kind of stuff. So you can't turn, you can't start to make life for yourself. And then, you know, all during this time, you read about how, you know, on television show, on the TV show Blackish, they did a show about colorism, about how in the black community, if you're dark, you know, it means one thing. If you're white, I mean, lighter, it means another thing. In slavery, if you were dark skinned, you were in the field, and if you were light, you were in the house, all those things transferred down. So we have all these problems within ourselves as the African American community. I chose to write about the one which is commonly referred to as acting white. And it is linked to black kids who want to become academic successes, who want to read, who love math, who are black nerds. And those kids are often ostracized because they're doing something that is perceived by other black people as white, which is the most bizarre thing to think that being smart is white and not black. But that is what happens a lot. Michelle Obama spoke about it, former first lady, in a commencement address at Bowie State. She wrote about it passionately in her new memoir, if you haven't read that, she points it out a couple of times with regard to her as a cousin who told her she was acting white because she spoke properly. And then as how Barack Obama was treated by some African Americans in Chicago with regard to his Harvard education and so forth, and how what, he wasn't really black enough. So this story in this novel investigates that issue. So if you go on YouTube and you type in acting white, you will find video after video of young black Americans. And please let me be me if I just want to, if I want to watch, if I want to like the Beatles, it doesn't mean I'm not black. If I like math, if I like books, it doesn't mean I'm not black. And so they're asking the community to understand. And so this character is living that situation, is trying to. He's walking between. He's a young. It's a coming of age story, but it starts as an adult and he looked. And he's trying to tell his wife about what it meant to grow up in that situation and in the Southern town that he. And I'm a Southern writer, so I put things in the South a lot. So he ends up between the whites who are intimidated by his intellect and he's uppity in that regard, and then the blacks who thinks he's a sellout and trying to act white. And so he ends up walking the line between the two races. And you know, it can be. And it shows on what a strain it was and how if there were not the right people in his life, he would not have made it.

Jeffrey, in the write up on your book, I did notice the question, you know, it took place in June of 1968. And the question is, is he black enough?

Yes.

And I did not never would have tied it into the description that you just gave us about the struggle of being an intelligent black person and how that is yet one more challenge. But in this time, black people put on themselves.

Right, Right. But I think that. But that is the legacy and the tragedy of racism. And it's the same thing what Blackish did with colorism, that is a tragedy and legacy of racism. And so we deal with it when we're dealing from the black community to the white community, but we deal with it also the effects of it within the black community. And you know, and I think we have to, we have to, for lack of a better way. I often use the like World War II as an analogy. So you have, you fight though. You, the idea is to get peace here and you have to fight it on multiple fronts. You know, you're fighting in Europe, you're fighting in Asia and Africa and the idea is to bring peace so black people have to do the same thing. So we have to fight when we're fighting the government, we have to have individual fights sort of or battles when we're trying to have conversations with white people to, to help them understand racism. And we have to fight in our own community to understand how racism affects us and is causing us to damage ourselves and so that we can heal from within as we try to make people understand from without.

I don't want to sound callous or disregard, you know, really centuries of racism, but I listen to you and it sounds exhausting. You always have to live in this heightened sense and you just, it just must be exhausting.

Well, I'm, I'm, I'm beginning to work on a piece. I was having a conversation with a young black man and he, this is recently and he was talking about this struggle in his, his new position that he was working in and just feeling the weight of the constant battle that day to day thing of trying to deal with being a black man in corporate America. And he said to me, and he was trying to find the words, you know, and he had his hand in front of his face and he was like moving his hand back and we're trying to bring the words out and he said, you know, it's the weight of my skin. And it just floored me. And I said that's, it just encapsulates everything. It's the weight of my skin. So I've been working on this piece that hopefully you'll read soon. And it's entitled the Weight of My Skin. And so yes, it is constant. And you do learn to at a certain point turn off things or go different directions when you know, you've met the wall and it's not going to change. But you know, you got to keep on living. And so you just keep on.

And you certainly have. And at the time of this recording a few days ago, they made the announcements for the Academy Awards and the Green Book was part of the awards. So tell us about your connection to the Green Book. Bring it to Washington dc.

Okay. I will tell you first that my parents use that, use that in terms of traveling with us when we were young. But I also will tell you that I was incredibly honored, I'm so honored to be a part of the Smithsonian Museum of African American History and Culture as someone who has participated in having his work there when this museum opened. So a good friend of mine, Joe Cortina, who is white and has a wildly successful production company, Cortina Productions, and I write a lot of things for him, and particularly with stories of color. And so he called me and he said, we have won the contract to do a thing about the Green Book for the museum. Do you want to write it? Do I want to write it? So what happened was I ended up writing the story. I created all these characters so that the idea is that you travel using the Green Book and you meet different characters, and that's a simplified version of it. But so I had to create characters like in a novel, and I had to give them dialogue and write, you know, all the other copy involved in it. And it was a great, great project. It's been an award winning project. So to have that there and then to watch the movie is a pretty special experience.

And not just to watch the movie. I saw when I was watching CBS Sunday Morning Morning, that they did a segment on the Green Book. And I have to admit here, I had never heard of the Green Book when the movie came out. I had no idea what it was based on. I just associated with the Green Mile, like, I have no idea what this means. And I thought again, like, is this some type of casual racism that I've never heard of this book. But then again, you learn about it. I mean, it says foreign to me growing up where I did. But it is such a remarkable story. And I loved on the segment that they showed, showed your interactive exhibit on the piece, which is incredible. Now, I can't let you go, though, without having you giving me your prediction. What is going to happen with the Green Book and the Academy Awards? What do you think they'll win?

I think Viggo Mortensen might win Best Actor. I do think he has a chance. Although.

Tell me about the Although. Do you think the although will harm his chances for winning?

Well, the although meaning that the problem with the black character's family not being involved and is it the true story from the black family's point of view? I mean, I don't know what I would say being a writer is that each individual has their story. And if the father, the guy who was the driver, told his story to his kids, then they own that story and they get to tell their part of the story the way they choose to tell their part of the story now, it would be a fuller, real story, a more inclusive story. Had they included the family of the. Of the artist. There was some conversation that they. That he was estranged from his family. I don't know. There is a. I mean, so the controversy exists. I like the movie. Actually. In the movie, my book is. The content of my book is referenced where there's a conversation where the black. Where the. The musician, he's outside of the car and they're having kind of very impassioned conversation, and he says, I'm between black and whites, and none of them relate to me, which is exactly the story of my book. So I was actually kind of pleased to see that. I hope that the controversy does not affect the voting. I hope it gets its fair shot. You know, it's got some good competition, though, so.

Yeah, well, the. Although that I was referring to was not what has just resurfaced about the family tension in terms that they weren't consulted or the profile. Peter Farrelly, the director, recently, there was a profile that came out about him, but. But that Viggo Mortensen, when he was doing a promotional tour in November, when he was discussing the movie, he used the N word. Were you familiar with that?

I'm not familiar with that. I didn't hear that.

Oh, you didn't? And that's where it started. And there was some buzz and people were wondering, will this affect his chances winning the Golden Globe? And he didn't. But still, it did win, you know, awards at the Golden Globe. So the question was, would this. Would this impact, you know, the. In the race to the Academy Award?

And he.

I believe I should have looked this up. He's nominated for best actor.

I think so, too.

In the green book. Yeah. Okay, well, good. I mean, what an accomplishment. I mean that you are tied into so many things. And my goodness, Jeffrey, I cannot thank you enough for spending the time to talk with me about the issue of race. And. And I did come at it one from purely selfish point of view, because if I wanted to be schooled in it by anyone, I wanted it to be you. Because you're so eloquent in how you speak about race. And you don't. You don't condescend. You don't, you know, you don't come from a place of anger. You come from this place of understanding. You want people to understand exactly what you said, which I may appropriate it now, how you use it to say in the next article, the weight of the color, how you feel the weight of the color on your skin. And that's so profound. So I want to thank you so much for spending the time to talk with me today and to share your experience with my listeners, but also to help them as we navigate this very this kind of hateful culture that we're in right now and anger provoking. And hopefully this conversation will help people at least look at it a different way.

Right? Molly, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed the opportunity.

I want to thank Jeffrey for sharing his wisdom on today's podcast. The discussion of race is an important one and I am so happy and honored that Jeffrey spoke with me on the podcast from his home in Washington, D.C. speaking of Washington, D.C. on next week's podcast, I am celebrating President's Day with a podcast highlighting the best and worst of Commander in Chief, command communications, how to elect the best skills and resign the worst to be a modern age leader. So listen for bully modern communication tips from our history's leaders and I'll give you a hint. Here's one. See if you can figure out who it is. Until then, we'll speak with you next week.

Bye for now.

The great fundamental issue now before our people can be speaking, it is are the American people fit to govern themselves, to rule themselves, to control themselves? I believe they are.