142: Is it Time to Cancel ‘Cancel Culture?’ The Answer from USA Today's David Oliver

Is it time to cancel the cancel culture once and for all?

So legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin was suspended by the New Yorker and took a leave of absence from CNN after coworkers reportedly said that during a Zoom conference he was, well, masturbating. Chris Brown is currently being blasted on TikTok and Twitter after another dark skinned woman insinuates he told her no darkies.

At the I feel even like I'm about to be put in the electric chair because I have a friend who many people think is a racist. So that makes me a racist.

What was said that was racist? Dumb question. Doesn't matter. In a moral panic, evidence becomes unnecessary. All one needs is the accusation to burn the witch.

Welcome to the Confident Communications Podcast, helping communicators create the right response at the right time and and deliver it in the right place. On today's episode of the podcast, the often mentioned, always feared public shaming and sudden descent of your name and reputation due to the effects of the cancel culture. You don't have to be a name in the news or a celebrity to take the proper precautions to prevent a public cancellation. But it is the celebrities who offer lessons that prevent or survive a cancellation when their time or name is up. Discussing the current cancellation rules is a writer who knows his way around a celebrity story. David Oliver is an entertainment reporter at USA Today, covering lifestyle stories that create conversations such as diversity and inclusion and yes, entertainment, music and celebrities. His recent USA Today article entitled It's Time to Cancel Cancel Culture is instead calling it accountability culture. This article questions the motivation behind the movement. What's the real gripe for people who want to cancel? People who step out of bounds for saying or doing something that causes shaming into the online purgatory and also how quickly it can happen. In fact, at the time of this interview, two people who were canceled for past behavior, Bill Cosby, who was mentioned in the article, and Teen Vogue editor Alexis McCammon, who we mentioned on the podcast. Both were uncanceled. Cosby was sprung from prison and McCammon is now back at Axios as a political reporter. How quickly it happens. But who are we kidding? Cosby ain't ever coming back. Back to Oliver. Now Oliver's approach has a twist in his story that is right in my wheelhouse. Accountability. And that's why I was so delighted to be asked to be a source and for his story. Now here's my interview about my interview with David Oliver. David, thank you. Thank you for asking and thank you for including me in your story. It's time to cancel cancel culture. Call it accountability culture instead. The cancel culture, at least we've been hearing about it, has been around for a while. But what I learned in your article, that it actually came from a song. Is that true?

That is true. It came from a song in the 80s by the band Chic, which I thought was super interesting because it's something that I didn't know either. So I kind of learned about it, you know, through the reporting of this story, which is something that I really like about my work, is that I feel like I can find out a lot of things, you know. You know, through reporting. And then it was interesting because, you know, obviously the term has been so, you know, I guess, cannibalized in a way. And it just shows up so differently today. So that was very cool to learn.

Did you listen to the song?

I didn't actually. You know what? And I probably should have, but I didn't because, yeah, the source didn't tell me the exact song they were like. They just mentioned it was by that band. And I didn't. And I actually didn't go through, and I should have.

No, that's okay. Well, David, you did. You. You jammed so much into your article. It was such a good article. But that was a piece of it that absolutely intrigued me because I've read so much about the cancel culture. I've talked about the cancel culture. So much of my work is really shaped around it. And I had never heard that before. And even in your story that you had mentioned, so the name of the song, I believe, if it's the same one, is your love is canceled. And I have never heard. I had never heard of that song before. So I had to listen to it. I had to groove out a little. But how she had point out in your source was a. It looked like she was a professor at usc, and she said that it was a part of black culture and that it was a phrase that grew to symbolize a particular kind of accountability. Was it that quote? Was she one of the first people you spoke to, or have you always known as an entertainment reporter that the cancel culture was tied into accountability?

It's something that I think I've known and sort of absorbed in, I guess in the culture. As we've talked about cancel culture so much, I think we've always sort of known that it really has been about accountability. I think that it's just that I think at one point I explained in the story, too, that cancel culture has been, you know, it's been Something that people talk about for so many different things. So it's like somebody like Harvey Weinstein, you know, convicted, you know, sexual offender, like, is someone who has been canceled in society. But then you also have people who are canceled for, like, saying something particularly offensive, but they haven't committed a crime. So it's this wide range of things. So I will say that, yes, while accountability is at the root of everything, accountability looks very different depending on the situations at hand. And on the Internet, I think it's super easy, especially on Twitter, to sort of like, attack people for transgressions that have not reached the, you know, I guess the threshold of a crime, but still feel very personal and still are not good either. So it's a very complicated conversation. I definitely, like, after I pitched the story, I definitely felt a little like, okay, like, how am I going to approach this? What's the best way to do this? Is this even smart? Like, was this. Was this a good idea to tackle it all? But then that. Those are the kinds of stories that I know I should do is the ones that are really challenging because that's what people are talking about and what people want answers about.

I noticed when you posted the story on Twitter, right away, I'm just someone. I always go to the replies before social media. I would go to the replies on an. On a newspaper and I would look to see what people responded. And some of the quotes said cancel culture. Really? We're still talking about it. But now you said that you pitched the story. Why now, in June 2021, when we've been hearing about the cancel culture for a while? What made you pitch this story? What was the trigger?

I think that it was some of the recent stuff with Chrissy Teigen and Billie Eilish that have sort of. It was those. I mean, there's always, like, for a lot of stories, we want to make sure there's like a news peg for them, that people are talking about something. That's not always a reason to write something. You obviously want to, you know, you can spur a conversation without that, or you can do your own, I guess. I guess you can find news before it breaks too. But in this case, to me, it felt like I was hearing about it particularly a lot in this moment. But I also feel like it always comes up too. But it just felt like a good moment where we can have a conversation and put things in context even better. Like, you know, people who are like, you know, Chrissy Teigen, you know, her bullying remarks were awful. You know, they're not the same thing exactly. As a Harvey Weinstein, a Bill Cosby. Not to. I'm not trying to minimize the trauma that people felt from Chrissy, but just that, you know, these are. It's interesting to talk about and like analyze these subjects. And I just felt like it was an interesting, you know, jumping in point here to talk about it.

Your analysis in this, in this story is excellent because you are clarifying just what you said right now. The cancel culture is like this overarching theme, but there's a number of different sins that fall under. Under the cancel culture. Tell me, like, what is that? Should Harvey Weinstein quote, unquote be canceled or is he something different altogether? Like, of all the people, all the suspects you mentioned, Billy Bush, Billie Eilish, Chrissy Teigen, where do people fall? Like, do you have different subcategories of the cancel culture that you've given a name to it?

First of all, thank you for saying the analysis is excellent. It was really helpful to talk to great people like yourself and others who kind of put things in context for me in that way. I will say, I think, yes, I think that there's, I think a quote in my story talks about. It's like, you know, if you're talking about Best Picture at the Academy Awards versus, like something more serious, like, there's obviously different levels to this. And I think that's kind of the point here, right? It's like, obviously if someone has murdered someone or like sexually abused someone, there's obviously different levels there. I think that if somebody has caused harm online by saying something racist, that's obviously horrible. I think that it did, but that's also not, you know, the same thing as like raping someone or sexually assaulting someone. There's. It doesn't mean that it wasn't hurtful, but it also, we're just having different conversations. And the justice system is not, you know, the Internet is still so new. I think that it's just. And Twitter in particular, these types of conversations are still so new that it's difficult to talk about. That said, I will say though, that these conversations didn't just happen online. People were being awful and rude and still are rude in person as well. And it's just that I think you're seeing a lot of people, particularly from marginalized communities, having a lot more agency and speaking up a lot more. And that's sort of where you're seeing, I think, people getting quote, unquote canceled. When it's like, no, you're actually just trying to hold them accountable for their actions. So it's sort of. That. That is also happening right now as well. So I think that it's easy to, you know, it's easy to point out, and it's obvious that all these things are different. But I don't want to say that in terms of. I don't want to also minimize the harm that people do feel. When you see things online that are hurtful or that are homophobic, racist, misogynistic. Like, there's awful things out there that people say. And I think that we're getting to a point and have been reaching a point where these things are not okay to say, and they were never okay to say. And now you're just. It's. There's a lot of backlash now from a group that was comfortable saying a lot of these things or. And now are afraid of saying anything. When the truth is the people who are really afraid of saying anything are the ones who are marginalized in the first place. So it's just sort of. It's like a flipped narrative in a way that makes everybody uncomfortable and makes everybody angry. But I also think it's signs of progress in that way, too. It's just causing a lot of chaos and confusion. Even as I've said this, I'm like, wow, there's a lot going on here.

There is, but you've touched on. Even when you. This is where we align. When you speak about the marginalized in my world and in my work, and I've been at this for a while, I feel the marginalized, the oppressed, the people who never had a voice, the Internet has given them a voice. And even though the Internet has been around for a while and social media has been around since around 2007, in the kind of the general online discourse for people to be able to use it, this idea of the marginalized having an authority, if you will, and having a cohort of other marginalized people feel confident enough to come together and lash out appropriately against a person. I think it's just almost like a natural order in a way. And there's something about them having this voice for the first time, which is why we're dealing with this cancel culture. Do you think there's something to that?

I think there is something to that. I mean, I think that people have always been. I think the people who were. I guess I forget if I read about this on social. Or it was in the article. Honestly, it all kind of blurs together. But the. I think there was this whole notion of like when, like, the people who are really canceled and who have been canceled in the past, people who weren't able to say anything at all. So then, you know, so when things are flipped right now and, like, people are saying, oh, you can't say anything anymore. This is cancel culture. It's like, well, that's not really true. So I think, yes, I think it's like a big piece of this is people who are. Have been. Not. Who have been unable to speak up or were not given space to speak up or doing so. It's definitely made it more of a thing. That said the term, again, is like, it came from this, like, the roots of, like, this song. It was used in, like, throughout black culture, and it's made it to the mainstream. So it's like, even. That's part of why the point of the piece, like, we should call it accountability culture, because that's what we're really talking about is, I think, important. And I've written another. I wrote another story with a colleague on specifically on black language and how it's been appropriated by lots of, you know, by white people, particularly on TikTok. And it sort of gets at a similar thing. It's like, this is just like, one phrase that's being. That's been used, but there's so much out there that's been mishandled and misused. And we all should be, you know, taking stock a bit about our language and what we're saying and where we got that language from. It's. Yeah, you can go down a rabbit hole and find so many different things to analyze, talk about.

Are you working on the story now about appropriating black culture and the boycott.

On TikTok that was published? I think it was before this one. So a couple weeks ago.

Oh, it was a couple. A couple weeks ago. Okay. Now, speaking of. Because I went back and looked at your. Your archive of your stories. One you. Aren't you. No, this is good. You're an entertainment reporter. But this topic, why did it fall under entertainment to you as an entertainment reporter?

Well, I think. I mean, truthfully, like, we. The way our team works, you say today we're just entertainment and life, but like, life, you know, it's like lifestyle, wellness, that kind of. Other topics sort of fall into that. So while my title is entertainment reporter, you know, covering diversity and inclusion, I also cover lifestyle topics. So I think this one really blended with both, though, because I'm talking about entertainment figures here in addition to, you know, and then it also falls into, like, A lifestyle type of discussion about the way we use language. So that's sort of how I sort of justified it in my pitch, so to speak. But I think it just. I think. I think you see it a lot in entertainment, like when people get quote unquote, canceled. It's not just in entertainment, but it's where. When you think about this, like people that I mentioned, like throughout this, like Harvey Weinstein, Chrissy Teigen, so many people, they're all sort of related in entertainment world context, even though they're so different and have been canceled for obviously very different things. Um, yeah.

So you, you're touching on one of the challenges too. Whenever I speak about it and if I speak about it off the cuff and I describe what it is, I always default to the celebrities, to the people that we know, and it's always the same name. But the idea of cancel culture, you know, crosses many, many boundaries. You opened your story talking about the political right and how they maligned it, how they appropriated cancel culture themselves, but to use it for political purposes. So what's your. What's your take on how the conservative bright started using the term?

I mean, I think that it's something that you saw on. I don't know the, you know, exact, exact roots of how it started, but I think it's something you hear a lot talked about on like cable news shows, on like Fox News. People sort of just like have started using it and saying it. And it's become, along with like talking about critical race theory, things like that have just become this, like, it's. It's reached like a boiling point. I don't know how far it's going to go, but where people are using it as a way to sort of, I think, accuse others of being un American, accusing people of just not trying to cancel everybody. You know, it doesn't fit with their quote, unquote liberal progressive views. And it's just the way that the country in general is like, it's get talked about so much, probably sound like a broken record, but the country's so divided. It's just more ways to divide the country. And I think if more people knew about the root of what cancel culture really meant and why I hope people read this is that they'll see that, like, this isn't, you know, what you think it is. And I think everybody wants people who do quote, unquote, wrong things, depending on what that is, to be held accountable in some way, I would hope. And I feel like that's what the point of it all is. And I think that the notion of the way that it's being, I think the way that cancel culture is being used right now is relatively dangerous.

What do you say? Well, tell me more about that. What do you mean about that? Dangerous?

No, I just, I mean that if we're, if people are using, you know, if people are talking about it differently and trying to sort of like ignite something or get people angry about something, I think that in general, regardless of what we're talking about, I think that if they're misinformed, then the anger is misplaced and it just creates a cycle of misinformation. And there's already enough misinformation going on in the world today that I'm like, well, I know. I think part of my job and part of my colleagues jobs as journalists is to explain things for our readers and point out what's going on in the world and explain it appropriately. And I would hope that that's the goal of anybody who's speaking in a public forum.

You had mentioned how the right and how cable talking heads on the right are using and misappropriating the term cancel culture. Greg Gutfield did a rant or a tirade when he was discussing it as it related to Sharon Osbor when she was, she was defending, when she was defending, oh my gosh, why am I blinking?

Oh, was it Piers Morgan?

Maybe I've never forgotten the name Piers Morgan in my life, but all of a sudden I blanked on Piers Morgan. Yes, Piers Morgan. Sharon Osborne defending Piers Morgan. When Piers Morgan was defending Meghan Markle, he had also pointed out, he, he had used the tone about when people speak about race, then they're canceled just due to an opinion. Like he felt that Sharon Osborne had every right to defend Piers Morgan. Do you think that's fair when you hear, you know, let's say this is a gray gut feel. So that that's a very strong opinion base. But what about when people ask, and I know in my replies, when I shared your article, people replied to me, it's so unfair that some people get away with it. Some people don't. Some people are targeted. What's your answer to that, about the fairness of it?

I mean, I don't have a perfect answer for that. I wish I did. But I mean, I think that the whole point of it is just, you know, you want to hold people accountable and people have gotten away with a lot for a long time. And I think that it's about sort of trying to, you know, express your Opinions and your thoughts. And then, you know, or if it's on social, I think it's hard because it's like you try to hold people accountable, but it doesn't really work unless there's like a mass of people sort of coming together about something. But then also there's like questions about that too. And like, is it right to really bully somebody off of a platform? I think it kind of depends on like what I call what they did. But even then I think it's, it's, you know, that has its own problems. Yeah, I think it's, it's very complicated. I think that, you know, somebody like Piers Morgan has such a large platform to do things. I think that's another issue here too, is that like, you know, when a celebrity does something or when a talking head says something, it creates so much influence. And I think those people can be, you know, are almost more accountable in some ways because of their level of influence versus, like you're, you know, versus like your cousin's cousin who said something inappropriate. That doesn't mean that it's any less like, bad. But I think that it's just a big difference in terms of like what we're talking about here. And you know, I think like your cousin's cousin, your cousin's friend or whatever, you could probably have a conversation with that person and like attempt to sort of like talk through an issue versus like, if you see a celebrity saying something bad, you're gonna maybe tweet about it. You're not gonna like, you know, you can't approach them in that same way. So it does, it does make you wonder about who's. I mean, I tend to wonder. I'm like, who's like with. When people get called out for tweets that are inappropriate? I'm like, who on these, who works for these people? And like, and they've seen things that happen. Like, why not go through these people's Twitter feeds and like, find all this stuff and like, delete it? Like, it just doesn't really make sense to me when like, if it's public, Obviously if there's DMs, that's different. But like, I feel like it just seems like it's a no brainer today. It's like, even if like Cancel Culture was canceled and was over and like, people weren't criticized on social, it's like, why wouldn't you just like go through and like just mine social media to like, you know, stop these things from existing at all anymore? That's just my Little rant about whenever I see like a celebrity get called out, I'm like, why was this still live? Like, why did. Why did this happen?

Well, when you speak of, of platforms, to me, that's another word, you know, for influence and someone who's considered to be savvy online. I asked the same question. Why wouldn't you go through it and scrub it? But I do think that there's a certain amount of, whether it's narcissism or just they have just such a strong sense of self and their brand and the invincibility of their brand. Like a Chrissy Teigen, for example, she had a platform she had influenced and she wheeled it in a way to hurt people. What do you think about Chrissy Teigen? Is she going to be able to come back or not?

That's a good question, I think. Yes. I mean, also, Chrissy has done, you know, she's also somebody who is good and has been through a lot. And that photo of her after her miscarriage was heartbreaking and awful. And I think showing people that misery and like, sharing that story I think probably helps so many people or put that into context so much. I think that it's so difficult to like, you know, quote unquote, cancel out, so to speak. Like someone's, you know, I guess the good they've done with also the bad. I think it's a thing to weigh. I think that, you know, it's complicated. I do think that if Chrissy, I mean, I'm no like expert on this exactly, but like, if I were her, I would think, you know, take some time away and sort of like reassess what you want. And instead of just these, you know, these like notes, app, apology type things, it's like there's other ways to sort of like make good. I don't know if there's some type of cyberbullying campaign or something. I don't know. I'm not a PR expert, but I feel like there's ways that like, you know, you can fix things. I think. I also think that the truth is it's like some people are never going to forgive her. Some people will never forgive any of us for things that we've done and that that has to be okay. You know, like, you can't just, like that's part of life. No one's going to be able to. You're not going to please everybody. So I think that there's probably going to be a faction of people who will never support her or never anything but I think that she's someone who has enough fans and has enough influence still that I don't think she's like, quote unquote done versus someone who's convicted of a crime or something like that. I think there's a lot, you know, a lot more potential for like, you know, for the person to kind of be out of the spotlight. Like Kevin Spacey, for instance, or even, even, like, I forget if, honestly, if he was. I think that all the crimes are alleged. I believe it's. I think that that's even like, that is difficult for somebody to come back from versus, you know, somebody who has said awful things online in the past versus, like, you know, versus there being, you know, criminal type of thinking around. So it's complicated and will definitely vary per person. But for Chrissy, I think that there's room for her to come back.

I think there's room for her to come back as well. But, you know, you're hitting a low point when Kris Jenner is canceling you from one of her campaigns. Those two were teamed up for a product. They were trying to create their own product line and she was dropped from it due to her, you know, her spike in her reputation. But I agree with you. She did the correct steps. I mean, she. She took the time off, she wrote the apology letter, she said all the right things, she touched all the right places. But I do think what her backlash is going to be is I think her reput will eek back. But financially, I don't think she'll financially recover from where she. What the trajectory that she was on as a. As a brand or as a brand and an influencer, I think it's going to take a while for her to get there.

Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure exactly how that works, but I would imagine that, like, with some time off and sort of like kind of refiguring out what brands potentially to work with, I'm sure eventually you could end up being a, you know, like, spokesperson, figure something out and make it work. But yeah, I think it's also the. I mean, it's interesting because I think the Internet, the news cycle, it moves so quickly. But when someone's canceled, I think somebody isn't always canceled forever either. And you sort of see some people sort of make their way, call their way back into the spotlight, and some people kind of are never canceled and sort of even if they've done awful things. So it's sort of this wide thing. I will say, though, Kris Jenner, like, she's someone Like, I would never want to cross Kris Jenner. I think anybody in this world, I feel like, which maybe I don't know. I personally, I'm like, no, like, that woman. I would. I trust her to, like, you know, I would never want to wrong her.

I was thinking, what would that conversation be like between Chrissy and Kris Jenner? And I was thinking, I bet there wasn't one. I bet Chris. Kris Jenner just said, ghost, you're done. We're. We're done now.

Yeah.

Okay.

No. She do anything.

She. She can. And they will. There will be other iterations of the Kardashians, certainly. Okay. Two points that I want to make sure that we get to before we wrap up. Okay, so. And I'm going to ask you this as a report now because you had just mentioned some people recover and carry on from the cancellation, others don't. Alexi McCammon, she was a reporter with Axios. She had covered the Biden campaign, and she was picked to be the Teen Vogue editor. And she only was in that post for a matter of days until reports that she had in her Twitter feed. When she was in college, she spoke out. She made racist comments, disparaging comments that current Teen Vogue staffers saw and shared. She seems to be someone that is in exile. So as a reporter, what do you think about those tweets that happen in college? And she's still sitting on the sidelines.

There's. It's so. It's again, very. It's so complicated. I think that, yeah, I don't know the exact right answer to this. I will say my feelings on it are it goes back to, again, why don't you. You know, nobody should be thinking any of these things. Things that she said were awful. I think it's important for everybody to make sure that what they share on social media, period, is appropriate. I think that in the year those were tweeted, I'm not saying they were correct. They were obviously horrendous things to say. I think the barometer for what people could say online was very different. Also, she was a college student. She was not a working professional. That said, I think when you're elevated to a position like hers at Teen Vogue, and then there's this whole mission of diversity and inclusion, and you say something that's racist. I mean, what did you expect was going to happen? You know, to some degree, I think that there's people, you know, do need to be held accountable for things. But I do think it's complicated. I don't think That I think there's room for people to grow and to learn. I don't think that she is somebody who I believe is either my age or younger than me. Like, you know, she. There's room for her, I think, to still grow and, you know, figure things out. I don't think that person is done forever. I think that's something that shouldn't happen. Exactly. But I do think that when you're. When you reach a certain level of your career or you have, you know, you're put in a position of power, like, that was a position of power, like you are going to be held accountable for things that you've done. I think that it's complicated right now as we think about, like, things we've done in the past and as they bubble up, it's a lot easier to find out things that happened in your past now more than ever because of social. And I think this is going to honestly probably keep happening for millennials, for Gen Z in particular. Like, as you go out into the world, things that you did online are probably going to come back to you because people will find them when you reach certain levels. So I would. I think it just sort of behooves everybody to kind of be monitoring what they are putting out. And I view even if things are private, like, if your platforms are private, I always err on the side of somebody's going to see this. So, like, become, you know, just be comfortable what you're sharing and also occasionally, like, I don't know, go through tweets, go through your Facebook posts. Like, are there any weird pictures you're tagged in that you feel uncomfortable with? Like, now? Like, there's ways, I think, to handle it. And I don't know, I think that I, I'm a person who generally, I think, like, I want to wish people well and that they can hopefully get better. I, you know, I think generally, I think that. So I hope that this taught Alexi a lesson. I hope that she kind of figured figure things out. But I also think that at this point it's like, not really our business anymore. Like, I kind of feel like in general she's someone who isn't. She's not at the level of celebrity that other people are. Like, she's a reporter. She's a human. You know, celebrities are human as well, to be clear. But, like, not the level. And I think that she deserves some. I think that she can have some grace to sort of figure things out. She did apologize. I'm not totally defend. I do not defend or condone what she did, but I think that there's some room for growth.

Oh, absolutely. And someone like an Alexis is not. We don't know at least where is she employed? Is she employed? I mean, she really took a, like a hit to the, to the pocketbook, certainly with that. Not just reputation, but the bottom line. But now you mentioned when someone is at a certain level, you have Jeffrey Toobin who now is returning to CNN after he was caught masturbating on a zoom call with his co workers, which. Which I think without a doubt crosses a line beyond. And now Jeffrey Toobin is back on the air. What do you think of that?

I don't understand that one. I feel like that's pretty clear. Like you need to not be. I was very shocked to see him on air. I think it's very strange. I think I said this at the time that like, if a woman or a woman of color had done the same thing that he did, in some way, that person would be blacklisted from any job forever. But the fact that he, like, you know, this white man is getting this, you know, he's getting his platform again to speak and say what he wants, I think that's very telling. And of where, you know, of what hap. Like, I think I just, I find that very telling. So that's sort of my view on that is just like, I think that he has a certain level of influence and is going to be able to keep getting jobs because of his privileges. And that's unfortunate. And I hope that we can learn a lesson from this incident and put it, understand it in that context. But yeah, I think it's incredibly inappropriate what happened. And that's something that, I don't know. I just, I'm not in charge. I'm not making those choices. But I think whoever is making those choices should think about what, you know, the ramifications of that and especially as we think more about privilege and, you know, what people need to be, I don't know, like, talk about, like, being held accountable. That person, he was not ultimately held accountable for his actions. If he's allowed to go back on TV and speak and kind of make a really awkward, like, oh, yeah, this happened. Like, that's so weird. Like, I just don't understand that. It doesn't seem appropriate in any capacity to me.

Yeah. And then Alexia McCammon, granted, she was just starting in her career. She has, as a young black woman, she has to look at this white male, privileged white male, a legal analyst on CNN who I think anyone could see it and saw that it was intentional what he did. It was a mistake that he was recorded, but it certainly wasn't a mistake what he was doing. And for CNN to let him back on the air makes you wonder one, what does Jeffrey Toobin know about someone at CNN that he's back? But what makes. Is. Is there no other Jeffrey Toobin in the world that. That could fill that role? Does it have to be Jeffrey Toobin?

Right. I think, yeah. And like, I think it's. It's interesting of you to put those, you know, to put Alexi and him in context, because it's very true. It's like, you know, if the situation, if the, you know, skin tones, everything were. Genders were reversed, I think things would look very different in these scenarios.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Okay, so I. Before I let you go, I have to ask you, because it was one of the stories that you talked about and I just have to get your take. You're an entertainment reporter. Lifestyle for USA Today. Free Brittany.

Oh, free Britney. I mean, I just. I think that what Brittany has shared in her in that court hearing things that we heard were so awful and so upsetting, and I just hope that she gets, you know. Yeah, it's hard to know because honestly, the truth is I don't know exactly what's going on with her mental health. And I feel like it's something that I hope that she kind of, like her sister was saying, like, I hope she's happy. I hope that what's happened, what happens to her, I hope that she finds happiness. I hope that she gets what she ultimately wants and that she is, you know, that she gets the help that she needs, whatever way that is. I think that it would be irresponsible of me, I think, to be like, oh, this should happen. Like, definitely Free Britney. All this stuff. Like, I think that she. I hope that the best course of action for her is. I think it was great of us to see her finding her voice. And I hope that she gets to a point where she's capable of making her own choices. And if that. And if that means being out of the conservatorship, I think that's great. And I hope that she's able to do that. Or if there's ways, I mean, there's probably compromises to be made, there's probably ways for this to change. But from what she's described, the first iud, I mean, it's heartbreaking if this is, you know, it's heartbreaking. And I hope that she's able to find peace, and I hope that we're able to see her perform and be incredible again if that's what she wants. I think it's. At this point, I'm like, let's hear what Britney wants. And I hope that what Brittany wants, she can get.

There's a thread to the Britney story, to your Cancel culture story, as it relates to accountability and even tying into Jeffrey Toobin. You look at the power of Jeffrey Toobin, that he could withstand that reputational hit, even though he apologized. He absolutely phoned that apology in. It wasn't genuine at all. And then you have Britney, who is being marginalized by her white male father, Jamie Spears. And if you watch the documentary, I'm assuming you did, about the free Britney documentary, it almost aligns to the same piece, like, who decides which white male is canceled and which white male is impenetrable? Like, oh, no, you can get away with whatever you want. Why does Jamie Spears have all that power to control his daughter?

Yeah, I mean, I don't. I don't know. I mean, I think that when, if you think about when he got in charge of that, what was the year 2007, 2008? I think that the world looked a little different in terms of celebrity culture. I think social media was just. Was just beginning. And there's so many pieces to this and that we don't fully understand that the world was just so different. And I think that, you know, Britney's story and her inability to sort of be authentically herself, even on social media, which she's even said that, like, she's sort of been like, lying to people about, like on social, about how happy she is or how well she's doing. I think it's really complicated and it's another case of unfortunate, you know, it is certain privileges that also there's so much money at stake with Britney's empire. Like, I mean, I'm not, you know, in no way am I. Like, it's like, I just. It's. It's so complicated. And I feel like he has access to all this money and this influence and, you know, he got a judge to agree with him for better or for worse. And it seems like it's for worse.

It's for worse. It's for worse. Oh, geez. Well, David, thank you so much for, for one, for taking the time to speak with me on the podcast. I will talk to anyone about the cancel culture, especially in entertainment and lifestyle. Reporter with USA Today. Your article. It's time to cancel. Cancel Culture, call it accountability culture instead. Totally jives with my book is this idea of indestructibility and how you become that way in the, in the public space. The last piece in every podcast since this book has come out, I always leave an indestructible tip. In other words, what is something that someone can do, a communicator, a manager, someone running their own business, their brand, a celebrity, whatever it is, a politician. What is something that someone could do that would, that would help them become indestructible? So if we're looking at this idea of cancel culture, how can someone become cancel resistant? Like what would be an indestructible tip to help someone become a cancel resistant person or brand?

I think listen to people that you work with or work for you. I think that people with different viewpoints, particularly from marginalized groups. I think that the more you listen, the more you understand the world. And I think that can help influence your own perceptions. Especially I think for like leaders in a company or something and celebrities like when if you listen to people around you and get different viewpoints, you're more likely to just be a more well round, a more well rounded person. So I think that's my, that would be my indestructible advice is to listen especially to those of us privileges than you.

Oh, that's fantastic. David, thank you so much for speaking with me. It was enjoyable and thank you so much for including me in your story. It was an excellent piece, of course.

Thanks so much for having me and I'm glad we got to talk.

Me too. Thanks.

Thanks.

My thanks to David Oliver. You can find his stories in USA Today and online@usatoday.com want to chime in on a thought or have a question about communications or the culture of it? Leave me a comment on my website mollymcpherson.com podcast scroll to the bottom of the page and you can leave me a voicemail and I'd love to use it in future podcast episodes. That's all for this week on the podcast. I'll see you here next week. Bye for now.