200: The Pull of Pop Culture with Emily Rose

We interrupt our regular programming to discuss the PR of pop.

So I'm going to use this video as a chance to clear up any misconceptions people have about PR couples and paparazzi. Firstly, think of everything that I talk about as a general guideline and not a hard and fast rule. I point out clues and hints, but we have to filter those hints through our critical thinking gaps.

Welcome to the Indestructible PR Podcast, where we use current events and tested media and PR strategies. Strategies to help prevent or manage a crisis and build an indestructible reputation. In this episode, the Pull of Pop Culture, a discussion with one of my favorite social media influencers who pedals pop PR on TikTok and on many other platforms. Emily Rose from It's Become a Whole Thing is going to discuss the whole thing about social media and public relations. We're discussing the business of social media influencing her tremendous success building a brand online. And thoughts on some of our favorite pop culture stories. We're hitting on benefit 2.0. Taylor Swift, will Smith, and Stassi Schroeder from Vanderpump Rules for those of you who are in the reality television realm. So join us for a little summer fun. Take a listen. Emily Rose, I'm excited to talk to you not only about this topic, but this time of year. It feels light and fun and those are two things I associate with you. Welcome to my podcast.

I'm so excited to be here and yeah, it's just, it's always a treat to talk to you. And for anyone who doesn't know you were on my podcast on what has now become, I think, one of my most popular and talked about episodes. And, and the best compliment I got recently was someone saying that they tell all their friends about my podcast and they say, start with number 18, the one with Molly McPherson and then you'll be hooked. Oh, I love that.

That's fabulous feedback. Oh, thank you, thank you. I was so happy. Did you reach out to me? How did you and I connect?

Do you remember we became mutuals on TikTok and then you said something kind like you were just like, you. You know, this, like, something like this reminds me of what I was doing, like this time at your age or something. And I was just like, please, please come on my podcast. Like, I'm like you. Yeah, we feel like peers, but you just also feel like you have so much brilliance that I'm like, this is just a wealth of knowledge that I'm already plotting on how to get you back on the pod. So that.

Oh, oh, you don't. Oh, Emily, you do not even need to plot about that, because I absolutely loved it. And I love the fact that you were sharing the feedback that you were getting with screenshots and that you did another podcast with someone Fluently Forward, who I follow and I listen to her podcast. So then to have you two intersect and be on a podcast, and then you're talking about me, I thought this sums up why I love TikTok and why I do love social media. For all the ills of it. There's things that I love about it, and this is one of them.

Yeah. Yeah. So we were just talking off mic about how Shannon from Fluidly Forward approached me to do an episode, and she said, I want to do it inspired by your episode you did with Molly. So there really is this growing fan base of you, this fervent fan base of, like, Molly McPherson stans out there.

Oh, Stans. That's funny. But speaking of a fan base, I mean, let's just talk about you. So if I have to wire people in to who you are and why I wanted to bring you on, because I'm at this intersection in my career right now, and it's so funny, on Twitter, I just replied back to a mutual mind, even though on Twitter they're not called mutuals. I only learned that recently when someone on TikTok wrote to me and said, I can't believe we're mutuals. And I thought, wow, what a great freshman.

Well, because TikTok, one of the brilliant ways that it set it up is because it's made it so that it is a very exclusive and special thing when you become mutuals. So for anyone who doesn't know, you can't generally message send someone a message without you both following each other. And so they've made it kind of like this exclusive thing. Whereas on Instagram, anyone can send you love, hate, whatever they want.

Absolutely. Absolutely. And what is so interesting, let's just talk about TikTok for a moment, because someone who posted on Twitter is someone who I've had on my podcast numerous times. We've worked together. I call him a colleague. His name is Warren Weeks. He's out of Toronto, and he's a media trainer up there. And it's funny, we're both the same age. I almost think, like, almost to the month. But he had just tweeted this morning, someone was talking to him about, you know, social media, and he had said that he felt that there wasn't any engagement on Twitter anymore, which is something that I had noted, it was quite low. But all of a sudden on TikTok, I can put content on TikTok. And in my Molly version of the world, he's saying, like, I exploded on TikTok. And I would say for someone of my age and what I talk about, I will call it, I have more engagement on TikTok, definitely. So I think the algorithm.

Yeah, let's take the age and what you talk about out of it. You've just exploded on TikTok, period. That is, you have the success on there that a lot of people can only dream of. So I wouldn't undersell yourself.

Well, it's not. But I will say, I don't think. I think partly, yeah, it's part of my content and what I talk about, but I talk about something different, right. Like it's. It's that Venn diagram as I talk about what's perfect social ready content, which is pop culture news, things that other people talk about and are interested in about it. But because I bring in a level of experience and expertise, and that's where I think TikTok really shines. It's almost like a little mini library where you can get these quick video tips. But you, my friend, you have a much bigger following on TikTok and you have this business that you've built around a word that's often maligned, but I admire it. And that's one of being an influencer. People are paying you to share your content. So can you just briefly set up how you went from just a working person, just like me, to someone that said, no, I am going to be. And I don't know how you look at the word influence or not, but I'm going to now pivot and put my business online. Could you share that?

Yeah. Some days I get deer in the headlights and I don't even know what I do. It's at some days I'm like, what? How did I get here? But I essentially always been very obsessed with pop culture and I absolutely hated my job. And so for the same reason of why I started a TikTok, which was because I hated my job and I just needed to get my frustrations out by making some art, which turned into videos on TikTok. That's what made my platform took off. And that's also what made me make the leap into just quitting and just doing the influencer thing, or content creator, whatever you'll call it. Like, I have many thoughts on why that word is maligned. But as for the actual business structure of it all, I made my first video and I did know what I was doing. I've been on the app and I always like to see, like, how is the sausage made? So anytime I see a billboard, a commercial, like a new app, and the way people are creating on it, I'm analyzing like, what thought process has gone into it and why it's successful. And I just love thinking about that type of thing. So like, oh, they use this font. Interesting. And oh, I see what they were trying to do here. And like, oh, I see how they're just leading people, you know, to go to their website. Oh, smart. Or I'll think like, oh, I see what they were trying to do. But it didn't quite work. And so I was very fascinated by TikTok because I do feel like it's a complete response to, to the glossy perfection that we've all gotten pretty disenchanted with on the Internet, on Instagram, that sort of thing. So I jumped on and I have a lot to say, but I sort of formatted it specifically for the app and it took off. And I have thought of doing a podcast in the past. I'm one of many people with the sense of delusion that I have, that I have something, something interesting enough to say every week that should be put out to the world. But then the platform allowed it because people were, were asking for more long form content. And so I did that. And so I work sometimes I work with brands. I actually have a book coming out next year. You do? I Did you get a book deal?

Is it self publisher? You got a book deal? Oh my gosh, no.

I got a book deal through TikTok actually. Stop it. Yeah.

Can you share is the title of the book? It's become a whole thing. No.

So they being Simon and Schuster, they pitched me this concept.

Wait, stop the podcast right now. Simon and Schuster reached out to you to write a book?

Yes, yes. And I've known about it for months and I've actually only told my patrons on my, my Patreon feed because I've just. No, no, but just because. Because it feels like something that I could only whisper to like a friend on the couch, which is kind of like I get very candid on the podcast, but way more candid on the Patreon. So I was like, I need to tell you guys this, but also I need to ask you if I'm dreaming or like, I don't understand. Like it was almost like a panic overwhelm Feeling. Oh, God, it's amazing. Thank you. Yeah. So they pitched me this concept that feels very on brand for me. So if you take a gratitude journal, it's like the opposite of that. So it is a way to vent your frustrations. And the way that I think of it is it's like if you've had a bad day and you have your favorite person that you like to have a little bitch fest with, like, with a glass of wine or whatever you have, that's what the journal is. That's the role of the journal. And so it's called the stuff I hate journal. And it's just about just letting it all out.

I love this idea.

Oh, my goodness. Yeah, it's the opposite of toxic positivity. And like, look, I get how gratitude journals are important.

It's the anti Rachel Hollis journal.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Exactly.

Oh, I love that.

Exactly.

Oh, my God. So see you.

Okay.

And this is why you're here, because you've touched on a couple things. Because of TikTok, Simon Schuster reached out to you to write a book, and now it's this journal where people can journal about the things that they're venting about, which really is. Speaks to mental health. Right. So it's really like a positivity journal, if you will, but just coming in on an angle of the venting, which I love.

Well, it's positivity in a roundabout way in that you don't have to feel ashamed that you're not always grateful and wanting to do sun salutations or whatever. You know, you really can just let it all hang out and be your messy, petty self, and that's okay. And that's okay to document it. Let it up and out. So.

Oh, I love this. Oh, my gosh. And then also you touched on your patrons. So tell people when you have a Patreon account, what are you doing on there? And is it worth it?

Well, I guess everyone's going to give you a different answer on whether it's worth it. I do put a lot of time into it. So basically the brief overviews, I put out two episodes a week, two podcast episodes a week. One goes on the main feed, one goes on Patreon. And I call Patreon the after hours podcast. And I also call it the circle of trust, because it is. I still get into deep dives and all that, but also I get more into my hot mess express of a life or the. There's also just certain opinions that I have where you need to know someone's character for them to just to understand like their humor and their off the cuff like references to really put a framework to it, you know, so we get a little loose.

Well, and it's a community. It's a community of like minded people. You're the head of that community. And that is certainly where I'm noticing in my research where this social media culture is going. It's not Facebook groups anymore. That's why I think Reddit just strikes a chord with so many people because it's that it really is a community of people venting about the same things. Which speaks to your book, right?

Totally. And like there's some of the funniest people. We feel a bit like a gang of misfits. A lot of them are neurodivergent like me. So we really are on a similar frequency. And so I'm just looking forward to the day when I can grow the podcast enough that I can do some live shows and meet people. That's a long term goal.

You are on your way because even you know, with you have a membership level, you have 218patrons right now. And even the topics that you have unhinged, which is my new favorite word right now, unhinged, influencers, celebrity birth charts, real housewife criminals and scammers. I mean people love this and it's not that they put this at the top of their hierarchy chart of this is what they think about and use all their critical thinking on pop culture. But I feel like I'm always defending my love of it. But I glean so so much information in my day to day job. If my clients only knew how much I learned from tracking like a Rachel Hollis downfall or a downfall of someone on Real Housewives franchise because it's real time crisis and you can see the fallout and the response from these people venting. And that's why I love Reddit. I laugh. Some of the funniest people I know are people on Reddit. The comments hysterical.

Oh yeah. I now have to stay away from Reddit because I am just. People are very interesting, but they're also a bit mean. And so all it's taken is me seeing quite a few positive comments about myself. Not like I'm being written about all the time, but I've seen some positive things and I've seen some negative things and the negative things hurt me more than I care to admit. So I'm like, you know what? And I think subconsciously I was fishing around until I found some type of like negative feedback because I don't even really go on Reddit because I just. It's just not. I don't know.

Can I ask you, how are you on Reddit? What subreddit did you fall into that people are talking about you?

Well, there's like a Tik Tok one.

Did you pop up on the Tik Tok one?

Yeah.

Oh, I love that.

It was just in the comment section, but it was like. But it was not very kind. So I am. I'm bracing myself for that on Tik Tok, I get it all the time and I'm used to it, but something about Reddit, I don't know, it just permeated my skin and I was like, I think I was fishing around until I found this. I think I was, like, looking on some level for some negativity because people can get so fervent. I'm very fascinated. Like, I don't even think I have an account. I think I just go on my desktop. But, like, I'm fascinated by Snark accounts that there's like 5,000 people on this one influencer Snark account. And I'm like, my God. Like, it is this wild mob mentality that I fear and I find interesting. Yeah.

Well, so, Emily, so that is absolutely where we intersect, because in my work in public relations, in crisis communication, where I really specialize and spend a lot of my time. And the reason why I'm so drawn to places like Reddit and TikTok is that mob mentality, because that's what brings down a brand. And so I wanted to talk to you.

And that's where you come in.

That's where I come in. But before we come to me and you, before we leave. So you are the it's become a whole thing podcast, and then you also have an Instagram, and then you talk about my influence on TikTok, you have five times the followers that I have on TikTok. I love your TikTok, by the way. It put me in a great algorithm with a lot of people like you, and I just love it. And I was telling you offline that your generation, we were talking about different generations, but I admire it so much because there's so many just truly intellectual, critical thinking millennials out there because you were brought up in the Internet age, so I think it makes you, like, really good thinkers too. For as much grief as your generation gets, I find you all just as fascinating and impressive. But so I just want to touch on. So let's just go into the pop culture world for a bit. I'm going to move into your TikTok hits, recent hits. And so I want to bring up a name, and then let's chat about it. And I want to bring in my angle. Think about it from a crisis communication point of view, which, by the way, Emily, you do anyway, even though that's how you don't ride in saying that, but that's really what you do. You're talking about the public opinion.

It's funny, because every time I talk to you, I think, should I go and work in a crisis communication? Like, should I just change my whole life again?

Emily, you already do. Seriously, you already do. Because it's all about public opinion. And this is what Simon and Schuster pointed out with you, and that's why they picked you, is you are speaking on behalf of the hoi polloi. Right? Like, you're just the sample. You're someone who's articulate and you think critically, and they think, oh, my gosh, there must be 500 people who think the same way. So I think you're inspiring. So I want to touch on a couple ones, a few that I mentioned to you, but one, I'm going to hit you out of left field. You. And I didn't even talk about it, but I have to talk about it right now. Let's start here. Can we go with Ben Affleck and JLo?

Yeah, let's talk about it.

Let's start there. So just give me your snapshot right now of those two.

Well, actually, one of my first viral videos was talking about Bennifer, and I had no plans when I jumped on TikTok to even talk about PR couples, but I mentioned them, and I thought everyone knew that there was all this PR behind it. And people were like, what are you talking about? And I was like, wait, we're not all on the same page. Are you kidding me? So that's not even to look down on anyone, because when you're so obsessively fascinated by something, there's things that become obvious. I don't ever say that someone has to spend their time doing this. It's my hobby, but mine, too.

But some people aren't paying attention. They're just not paying attention.

Yeah. And, like. But, you know, they don't have to. It's like, I literally could care less about pro sports, but I know there's some. Sure, there's some interesting things there or whatever. Live your life. But for me, it's pop culture. That this is my super bowl, like, whatever. So I was talking about Bennifer and I was talking about all the ways that they've constructed this public relationship.

Like, what are some of the ways?

Well, okay, first of all, I think that they were seizing upon the early 2000s nostalgia trend. So everything in pop culture right now is kind of geared towards this early 2000s nostalgia. Like in the remakes of movies, fashion, all of that. They know that they were the it couple of that time. And JLo is very. She is a very sharp businesswoman. And I think that this is not even a dig on her. I think that marriage is what you make of it. You can have an arranged marriage, you can have a marriage for love, you can have a marriage for business. It's a contract that you're both signing. And what you're signing up for, that's up to you. Like, there's no. In a world of. The sanctity of it is what you make of it. And so for me, like, if you take someone like her who's been engaged, I think was five times.

Five times.

Yeah, five times. By that evidence, I would say that it's not as much of a thing of love and more of a thing of limerence. Yeah. Like strategy and career oriented. Like, that's really where she's always going with this, with her next steps. So there's that. Then it's like Ben also, when I was talking about it, people were like, he's a big star. Why would he need to increase his star? Well, I think he's been the sad Dunkin Donuts man for quite a few years now. And I do think that's gotten him quite a bit of publicity and quite a bit of Dunkin Donuts ad money. But I think he wanted to move on. And so he got the full JLO Botox makeover. Like, she really. I feel like her team really shined him up good. It just shows you, you know, that there's no ugly people. They're just poor people because they just. They just put their spit shine on him. He came out looking pretty good. So then, so then, so then they're doing things like they're on a yacht recreating her love Don't Cost a Thing music video. And so I'm like, you know, they're having fun. They're putting on a show for us. They're putting on. It's like they're doing their own reality show. And there's all these paparazzi videos where you can see her, like, holding his shoulders, turning him towards the camera. So it's like. Yeah, it is. There for our entertainment. If you want to subscribe to that fantasy, go right ahead. Go enjoy. Enjoy the performance. I want to talk about what they're thinking about. So that's. Yeah, that's the basis.

You nailed it there. And now Ben is from my neck of the woods, so just outside of Boston. So I will say the only thing I would add on to the brand of Ben is he is a Boston Duncan guy, and he is T shirts and sweats, falling down with a Duncan in hand. You know, with his Red Sox hat. You can always tell when it's a paparazzi photos. Yes. When he has a belt on or a jacket on. You know, when he's dressed up to the nines, you know, that J. Lo is all over it. But, yeah, her business. It's like her business pattern is when she falls in love and she is in that limerence phase, it's almost like her business brain starts moving immediately. Okay, what can I turn this into? Into, like, especially when she was with a rod, you could almost watch the gears in JLo's head move as she's plotting, you know, what she's going to do next. But the sad thing is what I see is just the struggle of Ben Affleck. I mean, this is a guy who's struggling and struggling under addiction, and now he's being led. I'm sure you saw the photo because it became a meme of him with his head in his hands, like the two of them having this very serious conversation at dinner.

Yeah, and that's where I stepped out of the conversation. Because I don't think if people want to make commentary about it, like, it's okay. But to me, seeing the photos of him sobbing, passed out on the boat, like, that's just someone. Also, based on what we know of his history, that's someone who's dealing with some active addiction, allegedly, if not that, then some other similarly very serious issues. So it's not like I can poke fun of them on the yacht pretending to be caught just doing the love Don't Cause a thing music video 20 years later. That's funny to me. And fun. This is not fun. And, you know, at the same time, I had this video that I made kind of on the fly, where I talked about all of his scandals and how he's done so many shitty things and nothing sticks to him. And so he also falls into one of my favorite topics, which is the celebration of male mediocrity. But, yeah, when he's, you know, face down and really dealing with what he seems to be dealing with that is not something I'm really interested in amplifying.

Yeah. And you do such a good job because I saw your TikTok on that. And where I follow it from a business point of view is, as you mentioned, what JLo is trying to accomplish with Ben Affleck and where real life gets in the way. And Ben just seems just listening to his entire Howard Stern interview and have him recount his marriage, that's just real life. Right. Like, Ben is just like anyone else. Everyone has struggles, everyone has baggage. But when you're a part of that type of manufactured, quasi manufactured partnership marriage, it does make it tricky. And with those two in the spotlight, it's like I get nervous for them. Like, what is going to be the downfall?

Well, and it just goes to show, you can have the best team in the world. But the Ben Affleck who was in the back of the car with Jennifer Garner, driving him to rehab and stopping for fast food on the way, that is who he is. And as anyone who knows who's been dealt with or adjacent to addiction, that stuff stays with you for your whole life. And it really is something that you have to maintain. And that's why I'm glad I'm not a celebrity, because, I mean, I could see myself, you know, going the Ben Affleck route if I was just held up on this pedestal and handed all these things. So it's very, very tricky for them.

Yeah, it is. So. And as an addiction adjacent person, so I'm very familiar with the demons from, you know, from an outside point of view. An adjacent point of view. That's why I watch it with a caution eye that, you know, OJ Lo, for all of her money and all of her attempts, it may not work. Okay, so that's Ben and JLo. Let's move into an area of a story that you talked about, like a week ago, and that was the Taylor Swift story about her being handled, you know, given this grenade of the one celebrity that has to speak to having a private jet. When the list came out of the top private jet users and Taylor Swift is at the top. Can you summarize what you talked about in your TikTok on that matter?

Well, I love how fast the Internet moves. Like, I've seen so many memes now where it's like a rocket ship taking off and it's like Taylor Swift going to Starbucks and like, you know, are like these like, military flight shows. And it's like, you know, Taylor and the Kardashians Seeing who can get to erawan fastest, you know, So I am really enjoying that. But basically I'm not even fully convinced that this is true because this whole article came from one think tank and they put out These are the 10 most frequent flyers on private jets celebrities. And it came right off the heels of this whole incredibly popular. Kylie took a three minute private jet flight, which wasn't exactly true. I think it was about a 17 minute flight that said it was landing in three minutes. But still, 17 minute flight is not great. And so this was published right after. And so whether that data is true or not, it is interesting that it's just coming from one source. But what we do know for sure is that they are taking a lot of private jets. So to me, it's kind of splitting hairs of whether, oh, they flew 150 or 170 times, you know, this year. It's like the problem is everything as a whole. And Taylor Swift was number one on this list and this is why her and I are actually in a fight right now. I am not speaking to her at the moment. One of many things, actually. I'm very upset about the last month or so of just Taylor being Taylor.

Of Taylor being Taylor. But what if you don't get invited to watch Hill Rhode island to celebrate the summer holidays?

It's funny because speaking of flying unrelated to private jets, I've said with Taylor, I'm on the no Fly list. Like I would never be invited to anything because I've spoken critically about her publicly. I've also done multiple podcast episodes that are essentially love letters to her. But like anyone in my life, I hold them accountable. I hold myself accountable. And she is a very complex person who does a lot of head scratching things. And lately there's been some really inexcusable things in my view. And so I'm like, you know, but.

Well, so let me ask you before we go back to the private jet crisis, what would you say, what is your biggest issue with Taylor Swift right now?

Okay, very, very briefly. She made her entire campaign around her Lover album and Miss Americana documentary about her finally using her voice and speaking up about political issues and all the fears she had about being silenced and how she's not going to do that anymore then. So people say, oh, celebrities don't have to speak about politics. No, they don't. But she, she made a lot of money on her documentary, on her album, press tour, everything saying that she was going to talk about politics. So she was silent on Roe v. Wade that same week. She was advertising her boyfriend's shitty Hulu show. Then she did not have to get involved with where the Crawdads Sing. Like, she's very wealthy. She can cherry pick her projects. Got involved despite there being pretty public, very serious allegations about the writers of it and basically being these allegedly potential colonial murderers. So there's that. And then she also recently signed on to a project with David O. Russell, who has a long history of violence and sa like, just, he's not a good man. And this information has been out there for a long time. And so. And she's not the only person who signed onto it. But all of this together with the private. I'm like, get it together. And like. And I had swifties in my comments being like, no, she has. Her relationship is in England and her mother has cancer. I'm like, spare me, okay? Like, look, okay, if everyone who had a sick family member took a private jet, then we would r be burnt to a crisp.

Yeah, like as Planet Guy at once. Yeah, exactly. So Taylor Swift is a perfect example. If we were to do this experiment and you look at what it's like to be a celebrity in this day and age, and you had noted that the story originated about Taylor Swift being the worst private jet CO2 emissions offender out there in the sluttery Scope. It's a marketing firm that came out with a blog post, simple as that. But it bled, so it led. You know, people love this. And you would get people chatting about it and it tied in a Twitter feed of someone who tracks, you know, celebrity jets, so they could, you know, verify it somewhat. But it's interesting how the weight of people, you know, I like calling them the hoi polloi, but people on social media who can really change the course of someone's public perception and cause real damage. And then you add people like you. I mean, yeah, you're just Emily Rose, okay? And you have your podcast and you have your TikTok. But now, you know what, you have a book deal with Simon and Schuster and you have people who are following you and engaging with you. And that is where we are. And I'm noticing that these brands and celebrities, we're at this intersection now where you touched on this word, where if you lack it, you can't survive as a business and you cannot survive as a brand, which is accountability. It's the celebrities. So whether you're a celebrity, you own a business, or you're someone who's just running a business, an average business owner, if you lack accountability, you can't Stay in business. And you're noting the trouble that Taylor Swift is having.

Yeah, I mean, she only cares about herself at the end of the day. And so I respect her business acumen, I respect her marketing genius. But the causes that she rallies behind, like rights for artists, that relates directly to her and her projects, gay rights, I mean, that's a whole other ball of wax. But she cares about things that are very close to home for her, so. Right.

And fans do not like people capitalizing off of, you know, ideas or even capitalizing off of fans. Using fans, leveraging fans, taking advantage of fans.

But her relationship with her fans is a completely. It's its own creature in a lot of ways. Like, she has, I would say, one of the most fervent fan bases, if not the most, like, they are fishy. So it's actually interesting because there are, I would say, two subsets of her fandom, both equally passionate. Yes. So there's Swifties and there's gaylors. So Swifties. And some of the people on the gaylor side call them the hetlers. Like the, like the, the heterosexual people. Like, because a lot of them say, like, it's disrespectful to speculate about her sexuality, her relationships, they tend to be extreme. Extremely, like pedantic extreme. There's no criticism allowed. They will attack, they'll go for the jugular. And Taylor will not call them off. That's something that she kind of turns a blind eye to. Then there is a whole complete industry that I would say that revolves around a queer analysis of her work and not just her personal life, but her music. And there are many podcasts about it. There's entire fandoms on the Internet. I just had Cam of what I will say podcast, which is a queer analysis of Taylor Swift. I've also had Madison from the Archers. Another, like, this is like a very fascinating and detailed world. And they also hate each other. So they'll mass report each other. Like, it's very interesting where I notice.

This type of fervent fandom is when I dip my toe into the Johnny Depp Amber heard discussion when the trial was happening. I mean, certainly not to the extent of the Swifties out there and the sub Swifties. But when people become very fervent on their fans, they will say anything and they will have blinders on and they will come at you and they will be very strong willed in their language. But it's interesting how some celebrities have this and does it help you or can it hurt you in the end?

Yeah. And with Johnny Depp's fans, it's also its own beast. And, you know, a lot of those fans were also bots. A lot of those fans were also real people, but there was a lot of bot campaigns involved in that. But, yeah, there are a mix of fans of his work and also people that hate women and are very excited to jump on board anything where they can do a veiled attack against just women where they're like, I care about domestic violence. Oh, really? Since when? Since just this case. And then you're gonna, you know, step back from it.

Yeah, that was a case of public opinion bots and social media and two losers. They both lost.

Well, yeah. And I finally, I have the confidence to say, like, history will not shine on the Johnny Depp fans. And we're already turning things around. I think the tides are turning. The Johnny Depp fans just. I don't know if you saw this, but they paid to have a lot of the court documents unsealed. They paid $3,000 for this and found out all kinds of salacious details about him that they didn't want to see.

That they didn't want to see that are coming out right now. And. Exactly. So the case is over. And so we have stories of Amber Heard selling her house to pay off the legal liability that she has with these same little salacious tidbits that are coming out about Johnny Depp. So the story and the crisis continues. Yeah, it won't favor him at all. So that was a lose, lose. So let's go on to more, because you're right, we're talking topical, political. Let's quickly touch on one, which is where racism reared its head and in the reality TV scope. And it's funny, on Instagram, you had commented on a story that someone tagged me on to see if I would talk about it, and you immediately piped in, which I loved. So why don't you share where we're going here with the whole Vanderpump rules?

Okay, I'm gonna try to explain this as concisely as I can, so. And like, sorry if I'm like, vanderpump rules explaining to any fans out there.

No, but you know what's funny? When people always say, talk to me like I'm a sixth grader, I'll say to this, talk to me like I'm a 50 year old.

I mean, look, like, at the end of the day, it's a show. So if you don't watch the show, you're not expected to know. Know it Inside and out for me. I mean, speaking of big fan bases, I've watched Vanderpump Rules for a long time, and I've listened to a show that is just a Vanderpump Rules recap podcast. And the tagline is Vanderpump Rules is a show for geniuses. I believe this also to be true.

Well, that is funny.

Yeah. You know Plato's Symposium about love? There's a. Okay. It's one of Plato's works that I really like. So they used to do these symposiums where they would gather and they would drink and eat and spend days just pondering one topic. And so I. I love that. Yeah. I created my own version called the Vanderpump Rules Symposium, where it's on Patreon. It's a couple. It's just.

What? It's three hours generation.

It's three hours long. And, you know, we were partaking. We were shouting over each other, we laughed, we cried. You know, we really get into it. So that's how maybe passionate or unbalanced I am, but it's not imbalanced.

And I'll inject. Here is. I'm of the generation of the first round of Real Housewives of Beverly Hills. So my Lisa Vanderpump goes all the way back to the Taylor days. Like, the first round is when I really watched it. So I do not follow it as much, but I know the cast of characters.

Yeah. And Lisa Vanderpump has a very minor role on Vanderpump Rules. But the thing about Vanderpump Rules that you need to know is that everyone's an antagonist. That's what makes the show so fascinating, is every single person is the most antagonistic, depraved person. That and doing the most shocking things you could imagine on reality tv. But you're compelled and you love them. And so it's this dichotomy. So that's setting the scene. Stassi, if you would call her that, was the protagonist of the show. She was like the queen bee of the show, kind of always was. There were things that she did on the show that she also discussed on podcasts. This was all out in the open. But in the summer of 2020, during the Black Lives Matter movement, when people were either. Everyone had to either care or pretend to care. In the case of a lot of corporations and TV networks and just private people. Yeah, it was a time of activism and performative activism. So people went back and looked at this instance of racism. So there was a person on the show named Faith, who's a black woman. This is an extremely white show, and Faith was a minor person on it, but she had been the other woman who had slept with someone who was cheating on his girlfriend. Jax. Jacks cheated on Britney. Two of the main people with Faith and Sassy Schroeder and Kristen Doute took it upon themselves to go after Faith. Now, Faith, they still had Jacks in their life at this point. Like, they had welcomed them back, but they were going after her. There was a robbery that allegedly a black woman had committed, like, somewhere in Los Angeles. And they were like, it's Faith. The photos look nothing like Faith. But they started calling police stations, they started calling her work, saying that she had done this armed robbery. Faith was formerly in the military. They were talking to the people that work with her in the military. Like, really things that can absolutely ruin someone's life or get them killed in America. And she was laughing about this on this podcast called the Bitch Bible with Jackie Schimmel also. They kind of alluded to it on the show. So this was an open secret, but it was one of the many depraved things that they've done on this show. And so this isn't just like making offhand comment. This is going on a campaign to ruin this woman. And for what? Because your shitty friend who's cheated on every girlfriend he's ever had, cheated on her with this one person. And she was fired from the show for that. In the summer of 2020, she laid low for a while. She had a very popular podcast. It was canceled. She was, quote, cancelled. She came back with a very popular Patreon that she still has today, and a book called off with Her Head, a book about surviving rock bottom. And her rock bottom was getting canceled for racism.

Yes. So that brings us to the intersection of where I am is when people are called out for just blatantly abhorrent behavior, and they try to label it differently. And that canceled term is one that it just gets tossed around so much from either being, you know, disregarded or using in this case, you know, with her book, that she was, you know, unfairly attacked for something. But what's interesting about her is when we're talking about the reality television culture, we're talking about Bravo. We're talking about, you know, how you. You said that everyone is. Is cast to be an antagonist, which I just read it as ratings.

Right.

And eyeballs. If they weren't, it wouldn't make for interesting in television. But is her response in her environment, her ecosystem of Reality television, social media influencing Patreon account. Is it going to work for her as opposed to if she were a politician?

Yeah, I think it would work for her just as well. I think her response is both appropriate for her and her particular cult following and if she was a Republican politician because she has the same, it's the same fan base there. Immediately after her scandal, she had, there was an Instagram account called Stand up for Stasi and it was like, stasi army, rise up. Our queen has been unfairly persecuted. These are the types of people, like, this is what they're concerned with upholding. And like, she is very, she makes great tv. She has her little one liners, but it's very. Her whole thing is like basic af. So she had a book called Next Level Basic, the Definitive Basic Bitch Handbook. And it was just like stock, like, don't let people tell you you can't have Starbucks. Like, it doesn't matter. I'm basic AF and I love my Starbucks. And it was just like, you know, whatever. For people who. It's a brand, as my very British father would say, for those who like that sort of thing, that's the sort of thing they like. So, yeah, her fans are rallying behind her and she's good to go.

Now let's counter her and her again, her reality influencer, basic AF brand. Let's compare that to Will Smith when we're talking about cancellation.

Okay.

And Will Smith just came out this week with his, I would think, overdue response to slapping really Punching Chris Rock at the Academy Awards, you know, back in March. Emily, what did you think about, did you watch the video? His video response?

I have not. I'm so sorry.

No, that's okay. But just in general, I mean, I think you, though, could you glean enough about what he's attempting to do four months after the fact of his violence? So we moved from racism to what about violence?

Well, it's interesting because it seems like he's returning back to the image that he had before this, which was someone who's this very fun dynamo, like top of his industry, but also extremely vulnerable. You know, he'll go on Red Table, talks with Jada and cry and talk about their entanglement. So it's someone who, you know, always positive except for when he's having this open moment. So it seems like he was going back to that and the whole slap and the yelling was kind of incongruous with that image. So it seems like he was just going back to it. And he has been in the game for so long that I don't think it's anything that's gonna stick to him too much, really.

So that's interesting. I think otherwise, I think because he is a list and the cancel culture impacts different people in a different way, like a Stassi Schroeder is going to be able to rise up a lot quicker in her world, like in her lane, I think, and find her modicum of success a lot easier than a Will Smith. Because Will Smith needs to be hired, you know, by a production house, like a film studio. A director needs to cast him. Publishers, you know, need to hire him. Netflix, you know, needs to stream his stories. Is he going to sell? And it comes down to money. And I think he made a misstep. And I mean, just slapping Chris Rock one is so he touched violence. He tried at the time to use the defense of, I'm sticking up for my woman. Chris Rock came after my woman, so I needed to defend her. Yet everyone on the Oscar stage, you know, allowed him to speak, they clapped for him, celebrated him. Yet I don't think he did. How you were rubbed the wrong way by Taylor Swift, what she stands for. I kind of feel that same way about Will Smith. So it, I think he's going to struggle to come back to what he was. This to me is an aftertaste that will stay there for a while.

You know, I think you make some great points and actually you're making me think back to the interview that I'd done with you. You completely changed the way that I thought about so called cancel culture, which is, I saw it previously as this binary, like, okay, you're either not allowed to work or you are allowed to work. And you talked about a really interesting point that I think about constantly now of, sure, they might be back to work, but they're radioactive. So this, you know, person might be back doing comedy shows, but it's not Madison Square Garden. It's a private show that they had to put on that did sell out. It's not on Netflix. It's not this stadium tour. And for Stasi, like, yeah, she has her little, you know, Republican, like basic AF Stasi army who are like, yeah, of course we see no issue here. But for Will Smith, who is an A lister and kind of has built himself as this wholesome family man, he will definitely work again. But you're right, I don't maybe not have that same easy, like, oh, yeah, of course, throw Will Smith in there. Like, easy decision. It might not be those types of projects. Or that amount of projects.

Yeah. And a Stassi who is, if I'm getting this right, she's conservative. Right. That's, like, part of her brand. And people will. When people like Stassi are attacked, then her just, like swifties, they'll come out and defend her. So that's why she'll have her defenders. You're not going to get a lot of, like, a Will Smith defenders, you know, for hitting, you know, someone up on stage. And one interesting exchange that I was just listening to that was recorded just after he was slapped is David Spade and Dana Carvey. Do you know who Dana Carvey is?

Yeah.

Okay.

Church lady.

Yes. Okay. Because whenever I talk about this podcast, one of my favorite podcasts, and when I say it to someone younger, they're like, who's Danny Carvey again? But they have a podcast, and they were recording after the Will Smith did that to Chris Rock. And to hear two comedians talk about it was the line that Will Smith crossed to them. Like, they will never respect that guy again. So even when you think about the cultures, like comedians, like, he's radioactive to comedians, and so now then he's radioactive to other people in entertainment. So it all comes down to money, too. You know, at the end of the day, the cost of a reputation, I would say.

Yeah. Can he get the approval from these focus groups? Yeah. And, like, it really wasn't just the slap, because it was something that maybe he could have, I don't know, written off certain parts of it, but it was that he sat down and then kept screaming about it. And that, to me, sealed the deal.

Yeah. And his response. I did a TikTok on his video that he had, and he did some things correct. But what he did wrong, again, is he made it about himself and how he was defending Jada. And it wasn't. He could have defended Jada from sitting at the stage. And it was this highly produced response. So it all looked good, but it was just a way for him to get out of it. I think it fell a little flat. Net neutral.

Yeah. And that's why your work is so important, is because people see those types of things and they have that gut feeling, like they're like, something feels off about this apology, but you break down. This is why you're not responding well to it. I'm going to explain these five bullet points of this is what's going on, of why you're not buying what he's selling. Yeah.

Thank you. Yeah. That's exactly why I love it. And anyone listening to this podcast would know exactly why you love what you do. You are so articulate in defining really, you know, for your generation and for many other people why we love certain brands, why we don't love certain brands, why we get behind it. But you're a tremendous advocate for just ideas, philosophies and you're passionate about issues that are out there that relate to to everyone. Mental health, abortion rights, you know, women's rights, just equality, you know, all of it with your it's become a whole thing brand and I love it.

Oh, thank you so much. And yeah, I think you mentioned like, you know, me being Canadian, I think which maybe just for anyone who's new, like I know I come down pretty hard when I talk about Republicans and Democrats. For me, as a Canadian, it's all pretty. It's hard to wrap my head around simply because our conservative party, which is our right wing party, is to the left of your left wing party. So that's where I'm coming from. So that's why I'm like does not compute a lot of it so well.

But you know, it's funny, so many people in my world, in my social world, I should say. Well also even when I went to school in Boston, so many of my friends are Canadian and I'm just wired to understand it. And a lot of the colleagues that I have online and we work together, all Canadian. But you all understand it too. But you understand it from above ground approach like 30,000ft in the air. Like you can see, see it for what it says. So you're more objective to it. Which is why I love the Canadian perspective as opposed to people who are in it. So I appreciate it. Emily Rose, I am going to include all of the information for people to find you on my show notes. But if you want to drive someone to the best place to find out about you, where would it be?

TikTok is my home base for sure. It's become a whole thing. I'm there across there in Instagram and really the podcast because that's where I would say my heart and soul is going right now. So. Yeah. And you can find it on all the platforms in all the places.

Well, Emily, I heart you. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. You're so cool.

You're literally one of the coolest people I know. And please come back on my podcast. Just had such a pleasure talking to you. But I, I always do.

I cannot wait till you're. When is the book coming out? Is it public?

Yet, like early next year.

I'm so proud of you. It's like I'm an older sister. Like, I'm so, so proud of you. That's amazing. Amazing.

Oh, thank you so much. Yeah, I appreciate it. I really appreciate it. So, yeah, I'll talk to you soon.

Yeah, I appreciate you. So thanks for taking the time to chat with me. We'll see you on the talk.

I'll see. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Bye.

My thanks to Emily Rose for joining me on the podcast. You can find all her links in the show notes, but her main platform is brilliance is her TikTok. You can find her at. It's become a whole thing. And no, I did not forget the indestructible PR tip. It's the one leave behind tip that's easy to remember. It helps you build that indestructible reputation. And here it is. If you listen to the podcast, and I hope you did, it's a fun one, but an important one. Pop culture usually is associated with a lot of people caring deeply about things that don't matter. But when you have a coalition of people thinking the same thing and acting the same way, and a lot of them happen to be in a generation, in a group that happens to be very skilled in the technology and the groundswell ability of social media, it is a group to not be trifled with or dismissed. So do not dismiss the hoi polloi. And no, the hoi polloi is not at the top of the hierarchy. It's not the upper crust of society. The hoi polloi is the every person. It's the people who form a group. And they can decide who makes it or who doesn't. So don't assume that those voices from the Internet are not the voices you need to worry about. If your company or your brand exists, experiences a bump, they will make you, but they can also break you. That's all for this week on the podcast. I hope you join me on TikTok at Molly B. McFerson talking a lot about the same pop culture PR trends that I see. And I'll tell you what secret they all lead to my regular job. We can learn many, many things from pop culture. That's all for this week on the podcast. Bye for now.