26: How To Be a Great Spokesperson: With special guest, former CNN and ABC News Anchor & Correspondent Jeanne Meserve

Hey there. Welcome back to the Confident Communications Podcast. I am your host, Molly McPherson. This week, in honor of World Press Freedom Day, I'm bringing you one of the best reporters I know in the biz, Jean Mazerve. I know this name rings with a number of you because Jean was a very familiar face on television news for many years. During her career as a correspondent and anchor with CNN and ABC News, Gene earned the profession's highest honors, contributing to two Peabody Awards and winning two Emmys and an Edward R. Murrow Award. Gene originated the Homeland Security beat at CNN following 911 and this is where we first intersected in Washington D.C. when I worked for FEMA in Public affairs and FEMA was a part of her beat, the Department of Homeland Security beat. And from experience, I can tell you she is excellent at her craft. I remember running into her at an event at the Canadian Embassy years ago, and what started as a very casual conversation about work cleverly led into a conversation about an issue in the news happening at fema. And before I knew it, I was speaking to Jean the reporter. She can get to the heart of a story that fast. We also crossed paths while covering Hurricane Ike in Texas in 2008. She was working for CNN and again I was at FEMA and we saw each other in the swampy, murky mud of the post hurricane restoration efforts. And I've seen her work firsthand, which is why I wanted to bring her wisdom and experience to you, the listener, especially the ones who may find themselves on the other side of the microphone, whether it's in an interview with the press or on stage with a moderator, which is precisely what Jean does now. I follow her on Facebook and I watch in just awe how she hopscotches around the globe, moderating the most interesting events and speaking to the most interesting people that are truly world leaders. I mean, her career from correspondent to moderator has been remarkable and I wanted to bring her to you because I knew she would bring such value to this idea of what makes an effective spokesperson, what makes a good one great, and the micro expressions that signal a bad one. She shares amazing straight from the source tips that you will not find when you Google how to be a good spokesperson. We switch lanes a bit to also talk about the state of the media these days. Jean shared her thoughts on biased journalism that you definitely want to hear. And we both spoke about our takes on the current political candidates because if you look at them now on the road trying to raise funds and get excitement around their campaigns, they're spokespeople too. And I know from experience that when a reporter calls for a story, people tend to panic. So if you're a leader of an organization and you freeze when you're informed a reporter wants to speak with you or you get an email that says they want a quote from you, then this is the episode. For you listeners I bring Eugene, Missouri, Hello.

Jean MAZERVE, hello, Molly McPherson.

I am so happy to speak with you today. First, let me start by saying this week is World Press Week. So happy World Press Week or Pearl, excuse me, World Press Day.

Excellent. Something worth celebrating and.

Well, I do want to celebrate your career for a moment, even though you are still mid career and not that it's over, but you of course, I look at you as one of the ultimate CNN correspondents. When I felt it was the network was truly in its prime and you did such amazing work there. You know, from your coverage of Hurricane Katrina and post 911 and the start of DHS, the Department of Homeland Security. And you had such an amazing career there. And before there, I know you were at ABC News, which I mentioned in the introduction, but not just that you are one of the few former correspondents that has parlayed your experience into an amazing next stage of your career as a moderator.

Well, thanks. It was kind of a logical transition since I spent my whole career interviewing people and now I just do it on a stage instead of in front of a camera.

Well, you say it's logical, which I could not agree more. But are there a lot of former correspondents that do this work?

Yes, actually, I know several who are in this realm. Several of my former colleagues from CNN are doing something similar.

Is it possible that I just don't see them pop up online as much as you?

It might be. It might be. Or maybe you're just not following the right Twitter accounts. I'm not sure.

Perhaps. But I do not. In my line of work, I see a lot of former media types, former reporters and correspondents. They do the media training route and they talk, you know, they help executives with their media training. And I know that's what you did for a while because that's where you and I intersected at the Communications center.

In Washington, D.C. indeed.

Yes. But I mean this idea of being a moderator, I think as you said, it's such a logical next step. And I just think it would be quite rewarding as well to be on stage and to ask people questions. But coming with your background as well, knowing the places where you speak now you can tap into so much of Your previous work, correct?

That's right. A lot of the moderating I'm doing is related to security and international affairs. And when I was at abc, I covered the State Department. I spent a little time overseas when I was at cnn, security was my beat. So yeah, there's a great cross fertilization there. That isn't the only thing I will do. You know, I've moderated a lot of stuff related to. For instance, I had done some cyber reporting when I was at cnn. I think I was one of the first television correspondents to really wade into that area. And now I find that that's useful. I branched out. I now can talk with some fluency, at least enough fluency to ask questions about things like artificial intelligence and 5G and quantum computing and 3D printing. So all of that is extraordinarily relevant for any number of industries and organ.

Now tell me, when you speak to these groups now, whether it's about technology or security, what kind of buzz do you feel or what kind of. I know you speak internationally now, you moderate internationally. How are people feeling about the US Right now, just in terms of politics and culture?

I think there is a whole lot of concern when I'm overseas, a lot of people looking to the US and not understanding or liking what they're seeing happening. As I say, I was just in Europe. A lot of concerns there about trade policy, just for instance, about the future of NATO, the commitment to that alliance. So yeah, there's a lot of questioning, a lot of concern and uncertainty about where we're headed.

Interesting. Now let me ask you this just in terms of the comparison, I feel so much as. When did you leave CNN?

It was on the 10th anniversary of 9, 11, so eight years ago almost.

Oh, the 10th anniversary. Okay. What in your opinion has changed about the news industry since then?

Well, a lot, which I know could.

Be an entire episode on its own. But I do have to ask you, though, I could not go one step further in this interview without asking you that question.

Well, there used to be a bright red line between reporting and editorializing. And if you were a reporter, you kept your own opinions to yourself and you tried to put them aside when you were reporting a story. And now when I watch so much of what's on the air, it's all about opinion. And I will hear anchors and correspondents making comments and using facial expressions and intonation to make judgments about the things they're reporting on or the people they're reporting on. And as an old school journalist, that gets my backup Another thing that's changed, what I loved about reporting was going out into the field and talking to people and getting a range of opinions and thoughts and collecting video that illustrated a story and then marrying that all together into a package. When you watch a lot, at least, of the cable news networks now, there's very little of that kind of reporting going on. It's a lot of people sitting around on a set opining, and sometimes I wonder why their opinions are particularly relevant or pertinent. I see people talking sometimes about subjects, and I wonder, really, have you ever been to the southern border? Have you ever put eyes on? Do you have any visceral sense of what this is about, or have you just read talking points?

Right. And I think it speaks to one, perhaps the budgets in the newsroom that they don't have. They don't have the funds to send people out.

Oh, I think they're making quite a bit of money. I don't think that this is cheaper, probably, than doing it the old way, but I don't think it's a matter of funding. I think it's a matter of what they think. The public wants what they want.

They want the opinions. And I know one of the, if you would say like a flashpoint, is when Jim Acosta from your former place of employment, cnn became the story. So I'm curious, like, when you see that happen during a press briefing, how does that make you feel?

Listen, I'm all for pressing government officials for answers. That's what they're paid to give, all right? They're in the employ of the taxpayers, and they should always remember that they owe us context and explanations for what's going on in government. But I do think that, you know, I know Jim. I like Jim. He's a good guy. I think he's a perfectly credible reporter. But there used to be a mantra in the old days at cnn, started by Ted Turner, which is the news is the star. And I still subscribe to that.

That reminds me of one of my favorite movies that I just watched, broadcast news. I mean, the journalism genre is one of my favorites in movies. And I watch Broadc. When Albert Brooks character, when he was referring to Tom, when he was speaking to Holly Hunter, and he said, you know, please don't get me wrong when I tell you about Tom. While being a very nice guy, is the devil, everything that that character was speaking about has somewhat come true. Somewhat prescient.

Indeed. Indeed. Yeah.

Okay. Well, thank you for that. I could not, like I said, I could not go any further in this, in this conversation without asking you, but I wanted to take your experience and you had amazing experience at news, at CNN and now as a moderator. And I wanted to focus on this specialty that I think you have just through your years of service is speaking to subject matter experts, speaking to people you know on stage and asking them questions and wondering what makes a good spokesperson and also and separating what makes a bad one. So I suppose, is there any difference when you're asking a question as a reporter as opposed to being a moderator?

I think there is. There can be a difference in tonality. When I was a reporter, I pressed and I pressed very hard and I was sometimes probably pretty obnoxious and rude, all in the service of trying to get a straight answer out of somebody. When I'm moderating, I'm much less inclined to press that hard. Do I ask follow up questions? Well, of course. But, but it is different. It is very different.

How do you regulate that? When you made, from your last interview that you did with CNN to your first job as a moderator, how did you self regulate when you were on stage pressing someone for a question?

Well, I did some moderating while I was a reporter. It's not as if there's a clear start and end point. Okay. I think some of it came from watching videotapes of things I did and saying, whoa, you know, people are seeing an unedited version of this now. You can't cut out your questions. You just have to comport yourself a bit differently than you did when you were in the reporter mode. I also think that when you're moderating, you're hosting someone and sometimes the object isn't to press down to a narrow yes or no answer. Sometimes the object is to get people to be more excited. Expansive television didn't always allow for that because generally if you were doing a story, you had a minute and 30 seconds to tell it, or if you were doing an interview, maybe you got a five minute chunk. When you're on a stage and you have an hour, hour and 15 minutes, you want people to expand and that requires asking different kinds of questions. Question. And also adjusting your tone and your demeanor to be more welcoming to them. Mm.

So in the. So when you're a reporter, you're drilling down to find that talking point because you're listening for that quotable quote, whereas a moderator, you're adding a little more filler to get them to speak more and feel more comfortable speaking.

Yeah. I will say sometimes I'm not drilling down to get to a talking Point. When I'm a reporter, I'm drilling down to get past a talking point to get to some sort of ground truth.

Oh, to the ground truth. Okay, then let me ask you this. It's a great way to pivot into this. So when. If I'm working on the public relations or media training end, and I know you did that as well, so you're gonna put on your reporter hat right now. How do you know what is the flag that's telling you? This is just a standard talking point that I want to get beyond. When do you know you can push to get to that real answer?

Sometimes it's because you have other information. You have done your reporting. You have a broader context. You're not just relying on what that person in front of you is saying. So that sometimes is what informs you. Other times it's something about their demeanor, particularly in the eyes. Reporters are expert at reading body language.

Tell me what you're looking for in the eyes. Tell me.

Eyes that shift, eyes that glaze.

Cover. They're covering or they're holding or they're.

Or they're reciting something that they've memorized.

Oh, interesting. Interesting. Is there a. Okay, so in the eyes, what other gesture are you looking for when you know they're. They're hiding something or withholding information?

So I took a course once on micro expressions. I'm not going to be able to dredge out of my memory bank the name of the guy in California who developed this methodology. But his thesis was that there were tiny little things that people did, little blinks or head motions that would clue you in to when people were telling a lie. The reason I went out and did a course with him is because every border agent, every member of CBP was being put through this guy's training because they were talking to people coming across the border, and so they were being trained to read microaggressions. So I said, well, I want to find out if there's anything to this. I want to go do this. So I spent a day with this guy, and we worked a lot with his. He had a curriculum that he designed that one could take on the computer. And I worked with him and with the computer modules, and I got pretty good at it by the end of the day. So I think some of that came into play also. Just I could notice a particular twitch or blink and. Or something that happened around the mouth of someone I was interviewing. And that would tip me off to the fact that maybe they were being a little bit less than Candid. And then there are those instances where you just know that you're being stonewalled. You just know. I mean it doesn't take any particular perceptive capability. Some it's just shoveling and you know it.

Yes, I, I did a podcast on how to spot a liar and it was based off of a book, but it was a woman in Washington D.C. and she spoke about those micro expressions as well. And it is interesting how you can take it from a law, law enforcement perspective, but use it in media. And so I take a lot of those tips to give to spokespeople, you know.

Absolutely, yeah.

The opposite of what you're doing. Oh, that's fascinating. So then when you, so when someone is stonewalling you, they're not giving you the answer. How then can you press someone? Like what, what do you do then? What's, what's your defensive move? To try and get beyond that, sometimes.

It will be to use the other information that I have, you know. Well, excuse me, but I have data here which tells me something different. How can you reconcile what you're saying with these numbers? That's a for instance. Another way would just, I will say that sometimes I probably very visibly was skeptical. You know, I would adopt a certain facial expression. Maybe it was a cocked eyebrow or a semi smile. I just sort of really.

What about now in the news? Like when you're watching spokespeople now and even in the, in the upcoming presidential, presidential race, you have so many Democratic candidates now on camera and they're speaking anything that you, any opinions that you have about any of the candidates that make them a good spokesperson or poor one.

I haven't seen enough of some of them to weigh in. I have had a little bit of personal interaction with Joe Biden through a group I'm part of called the Transatlantic Commission on Election Integrity. So one on one, I've had a lot more exposure there with him than any of the others. Very affable, likable, charming guy who can strike up a conversation with anybody. I think that's a gift he has politically. Obviously it has sometimes led him to commit gaffes. But that's sort of on a personal level. I think he can be a very strong communicator and he can turn a phrase. The other night when I was watching the town halls, the person I had kind of a strong reaction to was Kamala Harris, who I felt. Had one speed that she spoke at, super animated and not everything calls for that. And it struck me as forced and.

A little uncomfortable Isn't that interesting? I could not pinpoint it to that, but you're absolutely correct on her. She is one note. It's as if she's always speaking in explanation marks.

Yes, yes. And with the great grand gestures. Listen, I'm a huge gesturer. I talk with my hands a lot. It's a fantastic tool for keeping up your energy and in a big room for drawing people into your conversation. But watching her for an hour, it was a little much for me.

Okay. May I. Can we go back to Joe Biden for just a moment? Now, did you happen to see on the day of this recording, Joe Biden had just announced his candidacy yesterday, I believe, officially. Did you happen to see him on the View this morning?

No, I did not.

Okay. I did not see him on the View, but I saw a clip of his apology. Non apology on the View. How do you think Joe Biden is doing in terms of addressing the creepy Joe Biden issue?

That is a tough question. So when these recent stories began to erupt that some people felt he'd been overly touchy, I thought back on my encounters with him. Never did I have this experience. Of course, I'm a much older woman. It never would happen to me at this phase of life. But I thought, you know, he was. He put his arm around me and took a selfie of the two of us on a couple of occasions. He was a real gentleman and pulled out his chair for me at a press conference. And I made something comment to him about your mother raised your right. And you know, he's very old school in that way. So I'm trying. I don't know what to make of the current, of the current complaint about him. Now, Anita Hill.

Yes.

I have. We don't know exactly what he said to her.

Right.

We weren't party to the phone conversation that he had with her. From what I read, it doesn't sound like he ever said the words I am sorry. And I think those are three of the most powerful words in the English language. Are they overused by some people? Sometimes, yes. But too often, in my experience, people are reluctant to say those words. And you know what? When people have said that to me, when they have made mistakes, I give them grace because we've all made mistakes. We've all been stupid about one thing or another. His mistake had far more serious impact, I think, than the, than any mistake that you or I may have made in our lives. But it's important to be able to say it.

Yes. And I do think it's the Idea of the apology comes up so often, whether you are training someone with the media or how to become a spokesperson or even within public speaking, is that Joe Biden does have an apology problem. He cannot say the words. And I had just tweeted this because I saw the clip of him on the View. And who would ever think that Joe Behar was going to be the pressing journalist of the day, but she had said to him, you're not saying I'm paraphrasing here, but you haven't said you're sorry yet. You haven't uttered those words. And I feel that Joe Biden has been crisis managed within an inch of his life right now, but he cannot get around that word. Like there is a block there that he will not say it.

Well, he's certainly not the only one, may I say yes.

Oh, that's true.

There certainly have been things said by the man in the White House which I believe warrant an I am sorry. And those words would never escape President Trump's mouth. So this is not just a Joe Biden problem.

Oh, absolutely, I agree. But I think. But Joe Biden, I think there's a particular spotlight on him running for the highest office now on his own, without President Obama.

Well, okay, But I could say the other person who I just cited, President Trump is in the highest office.

Yes.

And he has said things that have been highly upsetting to certain individuals, like gold star families, and he cannot bring himself to say these three words. He doubles down. So am I forgiving Joe Biden because President Trump has the problem with this? Absolutely not. I'm just saying this is not Joe Biden's problem alone. If he's gonna be held accountable, others should be held accountable as well.

Yes, that's true. On a greater scope, definitely. In terms of having a base and how do you campaign and how do you get those endorsements that. And what President Trump needs right now is much different than what Joe Biden needs. Joe Biden needs money and he needs a lot of it quickly. But I do think in terms of just looking at Joe Biden, not as a candidate, but just as a spokesperson, how difficult it is to say you're sorry and be honest. And I think that's a struggle for a lot of people in business, whether you're Joe Biden or the head of Boeing.

True. Another phrase that I find spokespeople have trouble uttering is, I don't know, how.

Does that sound to you? Then when they struggle with it, what does it sound like?

Sometimes it blows their credibility and they make stuff up because they don't want to utter the words, I don't know. Let me tell you a story. The last presidential cycle, I was asked by a group called Americans for Peace, Prosperity and Security to do town hall meetings with some of the contenders about Napoleon security issues. And so I talked to a lot of the Republicans, and one of them was Jeb Bush. And I asked him a question out of the blue about space warfare, which at the time was a pretty new topic. I think Scientific American might have come out with a big article about it, but it hadn't gotten a lot of currency. And in the middle of this town hall meeting, Jeb Bush turned to me and said, you know, that's a really important issue, and I don't know enough about it, so I have to get smarter, and then I'll come back and I'll talk to you. So when I left the stage and I talked to some of the people in the audience and asked them for their reactions to what they'd heard from the stage, several of them cited that exchange and said, that impressed me. I appreciated the fact that he wasn't trying to snow you. He wasn't trying to make it up on the spot. He was saying, in essence, I don't know. Now, they may have liked it. They didn't like it so much that he got the Republican nomination, but they appreciated the candor. And I think too often spokespeople get caught up in this, what they perceive as a need to be omniscient. And they shouldn't. They should remember that candor and credibility are the coin of the realm. And if you don't know, you should say it.

And I think so. This was a little before our time. I mean, when that past election. I think there's been a big change in this idea of authenticity. And I think these raw moments, like what Jeb Bush said to you, that was like a raw, real, authentic moment. I think that plays a lot better nowadays than back then.

I don't know. I don't know. I'd have to think more about that. So another moment of authenticity might have been Howard Dean's scream. Remember that one? Oh, yes, that did certainly work against him, but I'd have to give that some more thought.

Well, let me look at. Let me approach it a different way then. It's not just about being raw, but it's about showing a vulnerability and admitting the truth. I don't know. What Jeb said was another way of saying, I have no idea.

Yeah, yeah, it was. I'M just dredging back in my memory here because of this question about authenticity and remembering way, way, way back in my career. I wish I could tell you the year I was interviewing presidential candidates who were passing through the state of Maine, because I was then working for the Maine Public Record Network and remember talking to Senator Kennedy and feeling that I was getting very canned answers to every one of my questions.

So is this Ted Kennedy?

Ted Kennedy when he was running for president? Because, you know, the main caucuses are really early in the whole game. So this was. This is really early. And I got the feeling from Senator Kennedy that he was reciting to me talking points that had been prepared and that he'd never. The person who I still remember as being one of the most compelling people I ever interviewed was Jerry Brown, the Governor of California, who engaged with me intellectually. And I just felt every time I asked a question that something fresh was coming out of his brain. And when I asked a follow up, he dug a little deeper and came up with something else. And I remember coming out of that saying, well, wow, wow, wow. I might not have agreed with what he had to say, but I loved that he engaged in a dynamic way with me. And more recently, more recently, a person this happened with was Chris Christie. That same group, Americans for Peace, Prosperity and Security. Another people. One of the candidates who I interviewed in the last election cycle was Chris Christie. And, you know, again, it's about intelligence, it's about terrorism, it's about international affairs. And it was. The give and take was spontaneous and it was fun and it was enlightening. And he showed his knowledge and his depth. Again, this isn't necessarily to say that I agree politically with either one of these people, but they. They knew their stuff is what I'm saying.

Okay, I'm gonna have to press you just a little bit on Chris Christie here. So I was going to do with Jerry. With Jerry Brown, and now I'm gonna do it with him. And this is a skeptic in me. Do you think that they're pushing you intellectually to at first test you? I mean, when you were a correspondent in Maine for Public. Was it Public radio?

No, the Public Broadcasting Network. My co anchor, by the way, for one of the programs I did, Senator Angus King.

No, really. He sat back at home.

Wow. Okay. We did a show called Statewide. I look back on it now and am incredulous that we could spend an hour on television in prime time talking about issues like the Spruce Budworm. But we did. We did. This is how much Television has changed.

I can't imagine. But anyway, Senator King. Yeah. Talking about anything for an hour that would interest a TV viewer. Sorry. As a, as a resident, but I didn't even know he had a television background there. That's interesting.

Oh, yeah.

Okay. But Chris Christie, who I believe two days ago, his former chief of staff, Bridget Kelly, who is now being sent to prison for three months, calling him a bully. Is Chris Christie, Is he intellectually that strong or is it a part of his New Jersey swagger?

It's probably both. Okay, listen, the guy has a background. Wasn't he a U.S. attorney?

He was.

My memory bank is a little foggy here. And he knew and had thought and had dealt firsthand with some of the issues I was quizzing him about. And although certainly he probably was trying to best me in the conversation, once he realized that I knew something about it, I think it was kind of fun.

Now, okay, then transitioning. So if you're on stage with someone right now, can you almost. And when smell when someone is being dishonest to you on stage as a moderator or maybe not dishonest, but they're trying to work around an issue, they don't want to give you a straight answer.

Yes.

What happens on stage as opposed to a one on one interview with a camera in their face, what do they do when they're on stage? Are there micro expressions there?

Yes, yes, there often are. But it's just a matter of listening. That's what as a reporter and as a moderator, you have to do. You have to be paying attention to what people are saying and what, weighing it and weighing it against everything else that you know and making a judgment about whether there are flaws in their thinking or gaps in their thinking or misstatements being made. It's where knowing your subject matter is absolutely critical.

Okay, so that's a great topic to move into, answering the question of what makes a great spokesperson. So one, you would say you have to know the subject matter. You have to. You would, you should have done your research by the time you're standing either on stage or in front of a reporter.

Yep. And you've got to be. You've got to have credibility. So a lot of talk now about Sarah Sanders. This is a woman who doesn't talk to the press very often. You know, briefings are a rare thing, but in the Mueller report, they spell out one instance pretty plainly where she was dissembling with the press. Listen, I've dealt with a lot of government spokeswomen over my many years Particularly if they're political appointees. Listen, I expect them to be putting everything in the best possible light. Maybe cherry picking the statistics they're giving to me or coloring things a little bit rosier than they might in fact be. My job is to find out the rest of the story and put it in context. But when a spokesperson lies to you, when they tell you something that is not true, that is a really grievous error. And it is very hard for any spokesperson who does that to regain their credibility. Another story of a spokesman, since we're talking about the good who I think just did an incredible job when the was the Columbia, the shuttle that blew up over Texas, remember that?

Oh sure, yeah.

And I was at home that day totally involved with my kids, not paying any attention to what was happening with the news. And my telephone rang and it was a spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security who I dealt with on a date at the time, I'm reluctant to give you a name, called me up at home and said, do you know what's happening? I said one no, I don't. What's happening? And he said, well, a shuttle just deteriorated over Texas. I want you to know this. We know because of the altitude the shuttle was flying at that this was not a shoulder fired missile. You may recall that at the time there was a lot of concern about shoulder fired missiles taking down a of couple commercial aircraft. They are not that difficult to obtain on the black market. They can be concealed pretty easily and there was a lot of worry that somebody would take one out in the glide path to a major airport and take out an airliner. And I had done reporting on that and it was a very hot issue at the time. The fact that he called me and said to me we've been able to rule that out meant that I was able to call CNN and tell them this has been ruled out. And what did that do? It tamped down what was potentially hours or days of speculation about the possibility that that was a shoulder fired missile. And I have always felt that that was one of the most effective communications tactics that I ever experienced as a reporter. It was proactive. They weren't waiting for that story. They weren't waiting for that speculation. They were getting out ahead of it and saying we don't know what it was, but we know it wasn't this.

And that that is the, it's battling the unknown unknowns. Because Even years later, TWA 800 where the conspiracy is still there. Was it a missile that brought it down or was it an explosion in the air where they tap that down right away to eliminate any of that conspiracy theory.

Well, you never eliminate the conspiracy theories theories. We all know that. I mean, look at. There are a lot of people who still don't believe 911 was a terrorist attack. Yeah, it's just.

But they're trying as a tactic in terms of just the communication of. It is like that's what's. What's changed in that rapid response realm. It's what can we remove off the table immediately to stop that type of reporting?

Yes.

That's interesting. Excellent point. Thank you, Jean. So, so moving into that idea of the good spokesperson, what could someone do if they need to prepare, either on camera or going on stage, whether they're speaking at an annual meeting and they have someone sitting down like you, asking them questions? I go to a lot of annual meetings where I see this, the former reporter sitting down with the head of an association or the chief executive. What are some of the good examples of a spokesperson or as a speaker on behalf of an organization?

Obviously, as I've mentioned, you have to know your subject matter. You have to anticipate what questions are going to be answered in the instance of a moderated conversation on stage. Sometimes there are some organizations that. And some moderators that will provide you with a list of the questions. Here are the questions we're going to ask. Unlike a new. Unlike a new situation. So prepare, think about it. Be a little bit creative. And that's another thing. Don't just give me the same old same old, same old, same old. Do something different. Be dynamic. Give me an example I haven't heard before. Tell me a new way that a technology is going to be applied, applied in your business. Give me something fresh, something that's gonna intellectually fire up the audience. I think that's very important. So that's key. And also I have to think something that people fail to do is consider, if I give this answer, what's the follow up question gonna be?

So someone should give an answer knowing that you will have a follow up question.

Well, not knowing that I'll have it. But think when you're formulating your answers, if I say this, where could they go next? Because I think we have both seen examples where people have given an answer which raises potentially even more serious questions that could open a whole new can of worms that the moderator or reporter might not have thought of before. So what I'm saying is think a step ahead. It's like chess. Mm.

Okay. What about the person, the reluctant Spokesperson. So this isn't someone on stage. This is a spokesperson for an organization. And I find in, in my work now, what I notice is people are moving away from a spokesperson. I wonder if we could call this the Sarah Sanders, you know, blowback. Because people, I don't think people like spokespeople as much as they used to or rely on them, but they like going direct to source now and speaking to the head of an organization. They want to hear from them. What do you say? What could you say as to someone, the reluctant spokesperson, going on camera or sitting down for an interview, getting on the phone, newspaper reporter, whatever it is, they, they're prepared. Is there anything else that they can do to try and eliminate the fear and take the fear out of that interview?

Anxiety afflicts a lot of people in all kinds of situations. Breathing tool number one, deep breathing deep into your lungs. It really does help in a significant way. Amy Cuddy's gotten a lot of pushback for her power posing that she touted in her TED Talk and elsewhere. My anecdotal evidence is that it works.

So is it your anecdotal evidence on your own that it works?

Yes.

Okay.

For me and for clients that if they do some deep breathing and do a little of the Wonder Woman pose with the hands on the hip, throw their shoulders back, it does help. I also think a lot of people get in their own heads and they undermine their own performance. Get out of your head and visualize a great performance instead of one that isn't so great. Instead of, you know, when Lindsey Vaughn is standing at the top of the ski run during the Olympics. I don't know if you remember this from the last Winter Olympics, but she would stand at the top of the run with her eyes shut in her hand moving. What she was doing was visualizing herself going through every gate and making every gate and doing it at a tremendous rate of speed and getting across that finish line to get a medal. Right. She's visualizing something positive. And too many people, when they're going to sit down with a reporter or they're in any other high stakes communication environment, they worry about everything that's going to go wrong. No, take a page from the reporter and visualize it going well. The other thing I think goes to just reinforcing to yourself the value of what you're doing. If you don't get out there and make the case for your organization, no one's going to do it. And a narrative may take hold that you feel is completely incorrect. So make Your voice heard, express your opinion, your point of view, your perspective. It is an important part of the context.

Do you feel that it's accurate to say that the media is always out to get you when you are doing an interview?

Not always.

Most of the time.

Really depends on the story. It really depends on the story. They do always want information. That's why regular care and feeding of the media is a really important thing.

Oh, that's interesting. Care and feeding. When I speak to people and try to calm them down and release the fear of the media, and I try to tell them they're your friend, they're trying to tell your story. But the number one objection that I hear, and it is number one most often told, and it's the one that's told first, they're just out to get us. And all they do is report fake news anyway.

Okay, well, the fake news thing I really bridle at. Reporters are not public relations people. They may not always tell the story you want them to tell, but you have to understand that they are talking to many sources. They're not an arm of your communications department. I think for the most part, the media does a very good job and that most reporters are truly dedicated to telling the truth.

Then let's tie it into the very beginning, when you and I started talking about the state of the media right now. And the piece that makes you bridal is when you see a reporter becoming a part of the story, do you feel that there are people outside of the news business that share that same opinion?

Oh, yeah, certainly they do. Certainly they do. But. But, you know, I'm just. I'm trying to think of some examples of some really terrific reporting that's been done. One thing I'd go to is Ronan Farrow. Okay. His reporting for the New Yorker was extraordinarily important and pulled the COVID off a set of behaviors that had that in some cases were known but hadn't been reported. That was a real service. I think it made a lot of people straighten up and fly straight. Not to mention it made some people pay some consequences for really extraordinarily bad behavior. That's just one example of how reporting can really be a force for change and a force for good. Just one of many.

And an example too, of Ronan Farrow before that story broke, when he was at MSNBC and his hour show and he was struggling. He was not comfortable in that anchor chair. I personally did not think he had a voice in anchor voice that was, you know, pleasing to listen to for 60 minutes and he really struggled. And how interesting that as soon as they, quote, unquote, let him go and put him in a cubicle in the back of NBC, he became that real reporter, that dog who found a bone and wouldn't let it go.

Well, he, he had done some of that reporting when he was at NBC. He did it while he was there, but it wasn't. Wasn't getting on the air.

It was. Exactly. They removed him from the anchor desk on MSNBC and they put him in the back. And it's as if that's when the pressure of the cameras off of him, in my opinion, that Ronan Farrow said, okay, I have a story here. And that's where it started. It was that, that he just wasn't comfortable on the air. And msnbc, you know, tried to push him in a corner and look what he was able to do. Yeah, you're absolutely right. Is there another example like a Ronan Farrow out there?

Oh, there are lots. There are lots. You know, I think ProPublica has done some amazing reporting. And by the way, one of the things that they were responsible for. Remember those audio tapes that came out from the border of the detention facilities? I believe it was ProPublica who got them and aired them. And it did more to wake people up to the family separation policy than a lot of other things did. Had. But right now, there are technologies available to people that allow them to create fake audio and fake video. And you may have seen Jordan Peele did one where you think it's President Obama speaking, but it's really him. Have you seen that one?

Yes.

Well, the Transatlantic Commission on Election Integrity that I'm part of is really, really concerned about the impact this could have on our electoral process. Just imagine if phony videos or phony audio of a candidate is released, having them say something totally outrageous. It's fake, but it sounds like the real thing to the average Joe. Think of the impact that could have on our electoral process. It's simply startling. One of the things we're doing is working with some technology companies to try and develop better detection capability. So when these things start to surface, and they inevitably will start to surface, we'll be able to figure it out and flag them and say, hey, not the real deal. That doesn't mean they won't stop spreading on the Internet, might I add. But at least for those who wish to be informed, they'll have the information they need.

And that reminds me of the other objection that comes up from, from spokespeople or would be spokespeople when they talk about the news is after they say then, you know, reporters are out to get me and all the news is fake news. The third thing they say is, well, they take all of that footage and cut it up and edit it how they want it and they are going to broadcast it how they want. Ethically, would a reporter ever do that?

Not ethically, but does it happen? Absolutely.

How often does that happen?

Oh, there's no way to quantify that and I'm not in the thick of it anymore, so I'd be reluctant to do that. But I certainly have seen instances where I think that's the case.

Where that is the case. Oh, that's interesting. Okay. Well, this has been so helpful for anyone that is thinking to become a speaker, a spokesperson on behalf of their organization or they are forced to and they have no choice. I think you did a lot to quell some of the fear that they may have. So for people that want to become a good spokesperson, what I heard from you is they need to study what they're doing, they need to research and come very well prepared to listen to the questions. And some of the self soothing techniques are just to breathe and visualize a positive interview, whether it's with a review reporter or a moderator on stage. Is there anything else that you want to share with the listeners about how to be just a great spokesperson or ambassador to your organization if they're on stage or on camera?

Two other things we talked about being able to say I'm sorry and being able to say I don't know. I also think it's really important to try to cultivate a relationship with, with reporters who may cover your sector or your agency. There were people who were very proactive about reaching out to me and offering their perspective, their ideas, in some cases their video that they thought could be helpful to me while I was reporting a story, even if the story wasn't about them. All of that made me smarter as an individual and as a reporter. And it also meant that if I had an encounter with that spokesperson in a contentious situation, I was going to be much more careful about how I treated them than I might have been otherwise. Does that make sense?

Absolutely. But define careful. Does that mean you're going to be a little lighter on them, give them a softer touch?

I think I'm going to be more attuned to what they're telling me and maybe I'm going to understand their perspective a bit better.

Oh, now at that time, were you the only DHS correspondent?

No.

Every network had one, yes, which is.

Not the case as far as I know. Now, despite the fact that this is a huge government bureaucracy, to be perfectly frank, there is one story in Washington and that is the White House and congressional interaction with the White House and now the Mueller report and what it means for the White House. And it has crowded out a lot of other news. And so a lot of the things that I reported on and that I still feel are very important are just not on the news agenda now.

Oh, so is it a. Are all the resources pointed that way or that's all the viewer sees now? Because CNN or any cable network news assumes that that's all the public wants to hear about.

Again, I'm not on the inside. I'm not sure that I'm fully informed here. It is definitely my impression that they have now enormous staffs at the White House, more people on Capitol Hill, more people covering the Justice Department. Those are the places where they've really beefed up. As far as I can tell, there are far fewer people covering the State Department. Back when I was at abc, every network had two correspondents full time covering the State Department. I am thinking now we're lucky if we have an off air reporter over there for the networks. You never see anybody reporting from that lobby with all the flags anymore, do you?

Yeah. Just as you were saying that, I was thinking of the optics of how it looks and another piece that I've noticed just in the change that I don't even watch national news anymore where that was an appointment viewing for me, whether it was Tom Brokaw and then Brian Williams, I never watched the local news. And I think a lot of younger generations, they couldn't even tell you who the top three news anchors were. I don't even think they can tell you what a network is, what ABC is. And comparing that to what CNN is, I don't think people know the difference.

Yeah, I mean, my husband teaches a course at George Washington University and he talks to his kids and he said they all watch their news online. That's how they get it. They are not watching the evening news. I'm old school. Most evenings I do watch one or two broadcasts because I want to get a sense of what's happening in that realm, that former realm of mine.

Yes, I can understand. My daughter's going to Washington D.C. for the Junior correspondent convention that's happening there over the summer. And when I was telling her, I said, look at all the people that are going to be there. Brian Lamb is going to speak to you. All. And she said. And that would be. I said that the head of C Span and that would be.

Exactly. It's a totally different media universe and in some ways that's a great thing.

It is. It just shows a shift. You know, the information is still disseminated. We're all hearing it. We're just hearing it from different places.

Right. And there are people who really specialize in certain areas and really can give you in depth reporting, be it about, you know, the law. I'm thinking of the lawfare folks, for instance, politics. God knows there are a lot of people who are specializing that and really dig deep and really give you granular information that frankly, television was never equipped to give people.

Well, Jean, I want to thank you so much for sharing your wisdom and just your insight, you know, just your insight into how someone could be a great spokesperson. And how do I think eliminate a lot of the fear that goes along with it? How could someone find out more information about you and your work right now?

Www.jeanmazerve.com your go to moderator, which I like.

What distinguishes a moderator from a go to moderator?

The amount of work they get and the caliber of the institutions that they're moderating for. Or so I like to think.

Anyway, I am wildly impressed with your career. You're just doing an amazing job and you're talking about such a interesting things on stage with such interesting people.

And I'm having fun and I'm still learning new stuff. That's why I loved being a reporter. Because every day I came home and said, wow, here's what I learned today. When I'm moderating, the same thing is happening. I'm being introduced to new topics, new people, new countries, and every day is an adventure intellectually. It's great.

That's great. Well, Jean, happy World Press Day.

Thank you so much to you as well.

Thank you so much, Jean. And if anyone has any more information, they will certainly check out your website and hope to hire you to be their next great moderator.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Okay. Thanks a lot, Jean.

Thanks, Molly.

Didn't I tell you? You will not hear these tips anywhere else. Thank you so much, Jean, for sharing your experience. Experience. For those of you sitting in your car right now or listening to this podcast on your headphones, I guarantee you you learned more from that interview than a lot of people who sit through six hours of media training. And if you are someone who likes to learn in the comfort of your own space, on your own, then you will want to sign up for a program that I'll be launching soon. It's called the Learning Lab and it's a new program program that offers monthly trainings on all the relevant social media platforms and the information that you need to know to become an effective communicator in the 21st century. The program is going to help you be heard, stay seen and maintain your relevancy while you work in the modern age. So sign up now to be one of the first to know when the Learning Lab goes live. So you go to mollymcpherson.com learninglab so that's my website. Mollymcpherson.com LearningLab for more tips, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple, iTunes, Stitcher or wherever you listen to podcasts. I want to help you become a modern age communicator in your industry and help you build a crisis proof reputation for you and your business. Bye for now.