261: Flipping the Script: How WGA Outmaneuvered Hollywood Studios in the Strike - A Conversation with Michael Jamin

The four month Writers Guild of America strike ended last Wednesday, which means Hollywood writers returned to work while union members voted on ratifying the deal with studios. This also means scripted television and entertainment and streaming is coming back finally, now that I have found my love of television and streaming again. After all, it's the fall season. And speaking of the fall season, I can now mention a new program coming out on NBC, premiering tonight. If you're listening to this podcast on the day of publication, if you listen after the interview, I'm going to tell you about a bit of a Molly tie in. So more on that later. But now let's talk about television from a writer's point of view. Welcome to the Indestructible PR podcast. I'm Molly McPherson, your crisis communication strategist and your guide through the world of breaking news and pop cult. Join me as we analyze the juiciest moments and extract valuable PR lessons. Let's master the tricks of the trade crises on our way to building an indestructible reputation. So join me as we go behind the headlines this week. Learn how the WGA flipped the script on Hollywood studios. You've likely seen this TV writer and longtime WGA member Michael Jamin on CNN and other news outlets talking all about the writer strike. And you've likely seen him all over TikTok and Instagram as well. He's quite popular nowadays. Michael spoke with me about the key tactical shifts that he's seen since the last strike and shares insights into the mindset of strikers. So this is a lesson for anyone who deals with stakeholder management. So take a listen to a conversation with my friend at michaeljamin, writer Michael Jamman. I'm speaking to you on the other side of the strike.

Almost.

Hello.

Hello, Molly. Nice to see you again.

Nice to see you again. This is our first formal meeting.

Yes. About we're all, we're old friends. We're young friends.

I know we're young, we're young friends. But this is the first time we're doing something formally. Like everything we've done has been informal up to this point.

I know. Let's see, we have our two men volleyball team, our coed volleyball team that we play on the beach. What else do we do?

Well, that one time we did pickleball.

Pickleball. We do our triathlons right on your back. You carry me. We do a lot of things.

I carry you. Yes, I do. So speaking of carrying you.

Yep.

Thank you.

Speaking of carrying me.

No, well, I mean the timing on this. So it's been a couple days since we all heard the news that the writers strike. Oh, my gosh. Is over. I mean, not officially, but it sounds like if I'm watching all of your interviews on cnn, taking notes, you're feeling pretty optimistic about it. So before we get into the strike, just briefly tell everyone who you are as if they don't know already.

Right. My name is Michael jamman. I'm a TV writer for about 27 years. I've written on a bunch of shows. I'll run through them fast because it's kind of, you know, I'll do it fast. King of the Hill. Just shoot me. Beavis and Butthead, out of practice. Rules of Engagement. Wilfred Marin Brickleberry Lopez. Glenn Martin, dds. I'm looking. I have a. I have a wall. I have my resume on the wall. So a bunch of shows.

The who's who of the 90s catalog.

Yes, the who's who. Who was. Yes. Remember when. Yep.

But speaking of, just shoot me. Just as an aside, I was driving somewhere and as you know, all I do is drive. Yeah, but I drove by a sign for David Spade.

Yeah.

What is Dave. Is he doing something new? Are you noticing David Spade? Like, it was a big promo.

Yeah, well, he has two things going. He had a talk show. I don't know if it's still on, but he also some podcast with. With Dana Carvey.

It's not the Dana car that's fly on the wall. And it wasn't his talk show, which I really liked on Comedy Central. But like, David. David Spade is doing like, I think a big show somewhere. Oh, my gosh.

Now, maybe it was his line of skincare. Maybe.

But when I saw it, I was driving and I thought of you and I thought, oh, I gotta ask Michael. Like what?

Yeah, I don't know.

But always hustling, right? Like, this is an industry where people are always hustling, as are you. I mean, so many people know you from TikTok. Know the back. Yeah, that's how I know you. Exactly. But you're a screenwriter. I mean, TV writer. You're a behind the scenes guy. So just what is it about TikTok that called you?

So I have a collection of a book coming out. It's a collection of personal essays. So, like David. David Sedaris meets Neil Simon and my.

Agent, what we're going with. I'm sorry, that's what we're going with. Neil Simon. Okay, so tell me the qualities of each that you see yourself in that you merge in the middle.

Well, Sedaris, Right. He writes beautifully. I don't write in his. In his voice. I just love. I can read anything he writes. If he writes a menu, I'll read that. Neil Simon, as a kid, I remember thinking, man, he was the guy like, you know, Biloxi Blues. I love that. You know, he was in the movie. Yeah. As well as Christopher Walken. And I acted in that play in college. That's another strike. That's another story. For a different podcast. Do you have another podcast where I talk about that?

Where I just talk.

Where I can talk about that? I'm asking. You don't pick up a hint, do you? So what was I saying? Oh, yeah. And then I saw, as a kid, laughter on the 42nd floor or something like that. Laughter on some floor, 23rd floor, whatever it was, which was his. He was a writer in your show of shows with Sid Caesar, with Mel Brooks and Woody Allen, like, all these greats for writers. And I remember seeing that on Broadway. My dad took me to see him Broadway. I was like, oh, I gotta do that. I wanna be that.

Oh, so that's what it was with you. It was Broadway.

I went to see the show and I was like, I wanna be in a. In a room like that. I wanna be in a comedy room like that with. With those great writers. You know, you can't. You know, that was in the past, but that was. That's what really motivated me to, like, get a. You know, move to Hollywood and become a writer.

Did you watch Dick Van Dyke when you were a kid?

Sure. Yeah.

And did you love it for that reason that they were in a.

It really wasn't. It didn't really feel like that was what a comedy writer's room was it really? And it's not. I've never been in a room like that, but, you know. Okay.

With a Rosemary. Is that the problem?

But they were. No, because it was just two people at a desk and then Dick Van Dyke. And I was like, comedy. There's. It doesn't work that way. Usually it's a big round table and everyone sits around a table and it's a lot more boisterous. It's a lot more like laughter on the 42nd floor, whatever that number is. It's a lot more like that. It's more like a. Well, I would say like a frat house. But I was not in a fraternity, so I wouldn't really know.

No, you were too busy playing football at Princeton. Yes, but. And now for people who follow you on TikTok. I mean, now you talk about what it's like being a TV writer when you work with a partner and you're, you're pitching a lot more. So that's a whole different environment for you. So what is it like? Like pre strike, Give me an average day for you.

There's no average day. It depends whether I'm on a show or trying to sell a show. If I'm on a show, you could easily be working. It's not uncommon to work 12 hours a day. If you're not doing a show, then you're working. I'm working with my writing partner, coming with ideas, taking meetings, trying to sell it. It's a lot more hustle. It's a lot more like, you know, let's sell something.

Yeah. And I see, I, I Notice on your TikTok that you bring a different side to it. Like, it just like you open up a different door for people to come in and understand the industry, that it's not these high paid writers and creatives sitting around you, like just cashing in all the checks, that there is a hustle there. Like you' always trying to like pitch a show, sell a show and the money isn't guaranteed to come in, correct?

No, no, not at all. I mean, certain writers, like J.J. abrams, they make a lot of money, but most of us are not living his life. So most of us are just constantly.

Selling, which I think played into the strike and the narrative of the strike. So you and I could talk about like 18 billion things, which is what we talk about, but right now let's just focus on the strike. I feel far more knowledgeable about it just because of you. I mean, you've enlightened me along with so many other people about the strike. But one thing I noticed about your coverage is you really put the human aspect on it and the kind of the everyday person.

I didn't know I was doing that. I really didn't. Thought I was just talking and I was like, what?

You are, but people, you're bringing them behind the scenes in a sense.

Yeah.

And people look at the SAG aftra, you know, that is that, you know, they hear about, you know, Fran Drescher up there. I mean, she's the president and she's the one, you know, leading the charge. And all these actors are out there. And when we think of actors in Hollywood, we think of money. But a lot of these writers who, I mean, who do fine. But you're saying like the majority of them are just like regular people. Just trying to get a paycheck like everyone else.

Yeah, yeah. Middle class. Yeah, if we're lucky. Middle class.

Yeah, Middle class, if you're lucky. And that's where I think you did an exceptional job with working as, like, a de facto spokesperson for the industry. I mean, you weren't official by any means.

No.

But you were really advocating for them. So when did the strike start?

I don't know. Good question. I would say it was like, three and a half months ago. So when is that? May or something? I don't know. Was it the first day of May or something?

Yeah, end of May, beginning of June. Did you all know. So you remember the Members Guild? I mean, the Writers Guild.

Yeah.

Of America. So did you all know this was coming?

Yes. Yeah, my friend. So before the. The strike happened, the Writers Guild sends out what's called a pattern of demands. I was going to post about this, or maybe I already did. And the. Into the pattern demands tells everyone, this is what we think we're. We're going to fight for. Are you guys cool? This is what you want? Are you cool with this? And the pattern of demands. This year it goes out every three years because the contract is up for every three years. So this year, I look at them and I looked at unlike any pattern of demands they ever put out. And it was like, because the business model changed so much with streaming that now the guild was saying, okay, you got to start. We got to rethink how you're paying us, because you're paying us on the old business model pre streaming. And so when you look at the pattern, it was like. It was like they were almost starting from scratch. And I was like, oh, no, this is. It's not that. I think what we're asking for was very fair, but you're asking the studios to do a lot of work and do a lot of rethinking, and no one wants to do that. They just want to keep status quo. And so thinking about that, I was like, okay, this is going to be a big ask. It's not like we want a raise or, you know, percent raise, like, it's bigger than that. And then they had a guild meeting one night to talk about this. Everyone was invited, even me. I didn't go because my Jeep was in the shop, which is where it always is.

It doesn't sound like a good excuse. But anyway, go on.

I was like, I can't get there. So my friend Brian went. He was about my age, and he went. And when he comes back, I talked to him, like, so what was it like? And like, what was the mood like? He goes, oh, oh, it's. It's not good. And I go, why? Because the kids, they. They've had it. The kids have had it. And by kids, he meant the 35, the millennials.

Yeah, okay.

They're fed up, they're done. And I go, what are the odds that there's going to be a strike? He goes, 1,000%.

Oh, really? Oh, he just knew from that meeting.

Yeah, because, you know, you can't get what you need unless you have two tools. When you. When you negotiate, everyone thinks you need better leadership. No, they have two cards to play. Strike and threat of strike. And threat of strike. You can't play unless you strike. So that's it, you know, that's your only choice. Unless they want to. The studio and the studios let us go on strike, they. Fine, go on strike. That lasted for three and a half months. They never made any real concessions during the regular negotiating bargaining. But then finally, four days ago, they said, okay, let's make a deal, and they hammered out a deal in four days. It doesn't take long to hammer out a deal when both sides are willing to negotiate.

Right. Right. Now, you said something that never really occurred to me before, but I think this could be something when your buddy said, oh, they're all hot, right? Like, they. Is it now the fact that so many writers, like, maybe so many more younger people are in the industry, and younger people, millennials, are maybe more justice driven, do you think? Or do you think that had something to do with it? Because guys like you, you're home simply because you don't have a ride. But all the other younger people, they probably did whatever they could to get to that meeting. But tell me, I mean, do you think that had something to do with it?

I don't think so. I just think it's harder for them if you're new to the business. It's harder. I think it's easier to break in, but it's harder to sustain a career. Whereas I'm at the point in my career, I've been doing it so long, I don't have some of those obstacles that they have. So, like, what are their obstacles? It's like, okay, they got that first job. Well, how do you get a second one? And the first job only lasts for them eight weeks. Great, I got a job, but it's over. That's all they wanted to hire you for is eight weeks, because that was the contract length. Now you're Screwed because you're only doing eight episodes or whatever. So they might hire you through pre production because the orders are shorter. So when I broke in years ago, if you were on a hit show. So most writers get paid per episode produced. If you're on a hit show like I was for the first 10 years of my career, I was working. I was doing 22 or 24 episodes in a year. So that's a full. That's like 10 months worth of work. That's a great amount worth of work. But now if you're on a hit show, you're doing maybe two months or three months worth of work because you're only doing eight episodes. That's a hit show. And so you're screwed. What about the other, you know, nine months out of the year?

Okay, so now you. So back in. So now there was the first strike, or. I don't know if it was the first strike, But I mean, one. The last one that everyone's familiar with was in 2008, correct?

Yeah.

Okay. So what were you doing in 2008 when the strike happened?

Oh, God. So I at the time had an overall deal with CBS Productions, which meant I was getting paid. I know. Did I impress you, Molly?

Well, no, I didn't know you were at cbs.

Oh, yeah.

Well, cbs, CBS Productions, yeah. Oh, weren't they the ones that put out Drew Barrymore show?

I don't know. I don't know. So cb. So that just meant. So at the time, I was a writer on a show called out of Practice. They liked what me and my partner were doing. They said, hey, why don't we pay you, give you an overall deal, which is a guaranteed salary. In addition, we have to develop for them and they get, you know, they pay us to develop other shows. Perfect. It was a two year deal. And so we just finished year one of the deal. Year two, we were on. They put us on Rules of engagement as part of our deal. Then the strike hit, and then they force majeured us, which meant our contract was broken. So we. We left a lot of money on the table. That was a bummer. But that's just how it goes sometimes. So we never. So they, you know, they broke our deal, basically, which is a term that.

Many people are familiar with now, just because of the pandemic. That'd be a term that. Not force majeure. Not that many people knew about it, but they do now. So in 2008, it was. It was different, wasn't it then? So compared to the strike. So that's what want to ask you about is what makes this strike different from 2008? That really, I mean, do you consider it a victory? The strike, the outcome?

So far, none of us have seen the terms yet, but the guild is very excited about it. So, like, when they're excited, when they're in a good mood. See, usually when they send out an email to everyone at the end of the negotiations, the email's like, it sounds like this, listen, we did our best. We'll, you know, lick our wounds, and we'll fight another fight tomorrow, you know, next time. We didn't get. We got something. We didn't get everything right. But this time they sent the email and it was very like, guys, you're not going to believe this. Oh, wow.

So it's like the conclave and the Pope, like, you know, that something happened. Okay, all right, so that's exciting. So now. So from what you know, and based on, you know, what really happened, let's just highlight what changed in terms of strike negotiating, strike tactics. I mean, this was a very public battle that people from the outside were certainly following along, particularly on social media and other people chiming in on it. Like, people like me. Yeah, exactly, because I liked all the crazy nuances about it.

Are we going to order dinner, Holly? I haven't seen the waiter.

No. Is that a part, you think that's part of my podcast? You think I have the budget?

Well, yeah, I thought we're going to have dinner. Having a dinner together.

Exactly. What do you think? This is Bob Iger in Idaho. In Sun Valley, Idaho. So let's start with Bob Iger.

Well, there's a couple things that change. Yeah. Okay. I'll take so first. And I think I'm the only one who's publicly said this, so maybe I'm wrong.

Really? Okay.

Yeah. This is my feeling. So in 2008, I think. Well, I think the studios have lost their leverage this time. They misplayed their hand. In 2008, their leverage was, if you guys go on strike, you might be out of work for three months. Can you really afford to be out of work for three months? That's how I felt. Then I was like, yikes, this is going to be awful. 2023, because of the term length of the contracts, most writers are already out of work six to nine months out of the year. That's what the strike is about. So the threat of being out of work for three months, that sounds like an improvement to me. So now you've got a bunch of writers who are already picking up part time gigs to make it through. Professional writers who are already hustling on the side. What difference does it make if I'm on strike, if I'm not employed? So they lost that leverage that they, they painted themselves in that corner of the studios. So.

And that's the part that I find so interesting. And I'm going to tell you, even though you brushed it aside in your Princeton Ivy we, Ivy League way, like I'm standing there in my BU sweatshirt and you're going to move aside, move aside.

Like, you know.

But when you're talking about, like, not, you know, you're not, you're not making that much money anyway. And it's kind of hourly, don't you think? Younger people, like millennials, they already, you know, have that mindset like coming out of the pandemic, they're probably a lot of them already side hustling anyway. So they were probably more charged up because they maybe had side hustles there that this really was an injustice moment too.

It's possible. Yeah.

I'm going to die on that hill. I'm sorry, that's my. I'm going to die.

Sure. You might be right. I don't know.

Yeah, that could be. So, but let's, so let's specifically talk about the tactics because you and I spoke about this before that, that the studios used a playbook. And the playbook that they used was one that they went back into the offices and pulled off a shelf, you know, and they dusted it off and then they opened it up. Now, for me as an outsider, I could see this playbook on full display. When I watched, as I had mentioned Bob Iger, I was traveling and I was at the Minneapolis airport trying to get to Boston and I was getting tagged like crazy on the Bob Iger interview on cnbc when he was in Sun Valley, Idaho at the Billionaires summer camp, sitting with his sweater, the sun setting down and talking about the strike. And so the optics alone were so bad. But that told me, like, Iger, he's no fool. I mean, he's out at Disney. He knows how to craft, you know, a story and how to, you know, paint a picture. He wanted to come across to me.

You think so?

As a. Oh, without a doubt. Like, he was so confident.

You don't think he had handlers that day?

Oh, no, I think he absolutely had handlers. But if he had, like a good PR handler, they'd say, Excuse me, Mr. Iger.

Right.

I think what we should do is we should Put a suit like a tie on. Maybe we could put you in a different conference room, you know, maybe. Or even undo your tie and show how much work that you're doing. Or maybe we could drive down the road and we could go into Washington and not be at Sun Valley. Like, those are all the things that I'm thinking about. But how he sat there in that chair dressed how he was dressed, and he just had this cool, cavalier attitude, like, yeah, come at me, come at me. Come at me with your best shot.

Yeah, yeah, that was. You don't think. Well, that's. That's the thing. I don't. I don't hobnob with these guys. So I would have thought it. To me, it seemed it was such a dumb. Well, it was such a bad idea. I would have assumed.

Bob Iger's not listening.

He's not listening to me. It was such a bad idea that I would have assumed that he didn't run it by anybody. But you think he probably did run it by and said, no, no, this is what we're doing.

No, I think it's the opposite. I think they knew, you know, because cnbc, you know, they set up there, you know, they're going to get publicity. They're doing all the interviews. They're doing coverage from. From Sun Valley. I think he was. Because I deal with this, like people like this all the time. They think they're smarter than the reporter, than the interview. And he's so accustomed to running things. And also he has this renewed confidence because he came back into Disney. You know, they got rid of the other one who. He moved up the ranks. So I think he was feeling very good. And not only based on how he looked and that he had the absolute co owners to sit down and say what he did. But when he's referring to writers as. Cause I don't know if SEG was involved in it yet.

Not yet.

It was just wga, disruptive forces, like he was. I saw a narrative that they've been using, this whole. This through line there, that you all were the enemy. Like this disruptive, like the dark force, which I thought was incredible and took such. I mean, the arrogance of that. So when you saw that video, what did you think? That interview.

You know, he doesn't. These are people who don't know how to. Like you're saying they didn't know how to tell the stories. Like, that's not the story you tell. That's where you put the villain of your story out. You know, I'm sitting On a bag of money with this view that I have in my. You know, in this resort. That's where you set the villain. You don't put the hero there. The hero starts off in the gutter. You know, the heroes is down and out. The hero is not the rich guy. And the fact that he doesn't know this and is in the business where they tell stories, that's why you need writers. Because a writer would have said, no, sir, I have some notes.

Isn't that funny? That's the irony, right? He needed a writer in there. Yeah. So his quote. Like one of his quotes. So this is. So this is Bob Iger. So this is when he was on Squawk Box. And it's the Sun Valley Conference in Idaho. So it's just all the billionaires talking about being billionaires, Billionaires. Billionairing quote. It's very disturbing to me. We've talked about disruptive forces on this business and all the challenges we're facing. The recovery from COVID which is ongoing. It's not completely back. This is the worst time in the world to add to that disruption. I understand any labor organization's desire to work on behalf of its members to get the most compensation and be compensated fairly based on the value that they delivered. So not only is he painting writers as disrupted, evil people, but also that you're greedy.

Yeah, I also thought.

Yeah, that they're barely middle class.

I also thought it was a bad idea that to understand what he said, you have to play it backwards on a record. I thought that was not a good idea.

I'm getting too serious for you, and my PR is at it.

But you know what, though?

Yeah.

I mean, it was like, when is your good time to negotiate a contract? Because when things are great, it's never a good time. They don't. There's never a good time. So what are you talking about? And that's a. That's a you problem, not a me problem. You know, I'm saying, like, you know, I got to pay the bills, so this is how I'm going to be going on strike.

Yeah. So. But, you know, I think when they played the record back, it said, the studio's message is dead.

Yeah.

Get it.

Yeah. Right. And it was. But it was. It was like, what are you. What are you guys. You know, it was very. And who else? There was something else that they did to put out was like, also tone deaf.

Well, I think it was in. Wasn't it in a deadline that they had someone. You know, that. So an Unnamed source.

Right.

So really what it came down to is painting you all as greedy, as disruptive. And if anyone's upset that you can't see your favorite movie, your favorite TV show, you. You have to blame them.

It's like we're disrupting his holiday on Overlook. On the mountain. At the mountain resort. This is so disruptive. Do you know I have polo in 10 minutes exactly.

Okay, so that's one tack. I think that's one reason why the wga, you know, was formidable in this argument. What else in the playbook changed in this strike?

They. I think it was social media, because you. We could put a face on. We could put a face to the cause. The. As you pointed out, the studios could not put a face to their cause. You. Who's the face of 20th Century Fox or Disney? Well, Bob, the CEO can step out, but that's not going to work. The richest man, you know, one of the businessmen in America, that won't work. You got to find somebody else to be your spokesperson. So who's it going to be? And, you know, with the writers, you could go on social media and everyone can just tell our story, and that's what. Writer. That's the only thing we know how to do, is tell stories.

And so how many. How many other writers that you knew that you know were on social media talking about the strike?

I. I don't know what they're talking about. The strike. It's so weird. Four or five. And I only know them through. I only know them through, you know, social media. I don't know them in person. Maybe there's. Maybe there's a little more, but I'm not. No, there's probably. There's a little more. There's probably a dozen or so. I don't know them that well, but they talk. And some have bigger reaches than others, so. But I'm sure there's more that I'm not seeing, so.

Algorithm, Michael. Algorithm. It's not because you don't care, it's the algorithm. Right, but you were certainly vocal. I. I will say this. I didn't see any other writers being interviewed. Did you. Were there other writers being.

Yeah, Adam. Adam Conover is very high profile. Justine Bateman.

He's high profile. Yeah. Okay.

Justine Bateman as well. So.

Oh, so she. Yeah, she was out there. So she's a member of wga.

Yeah. And dga, and so she's. And she's higher profile than me, so.

Well, yeah. So why is she. Is she. What does she write?

Well, you remember her from family. Family ties. Right.

Of course.

Mallory.

Sister. Valerie, of course. Older sister of Jason Bateman.

Things didn't work out with her. And Nick. Remember.

Remember Nick Valentine?

Yes.

Wasn't it?

Yes.

How impressed are you?

Yeah.

Yes. Okay, so, yeah, so those were definitely people, though. But I think your message was daily. I mean, you talked about it, and you just kind of wove it into your natural narrative while you kept sharing tips on how people can become, you know, writers in Hollywood. You certainly, you know, dotted it with, you know, what was happening with the strike. Okay, so now you talk about social media. What else did social media do as a strike tactic?

Two things. One, it united the writers with each other. So, like, you know, they could. Where, hey, we're all telling stories, and. And they know how I feel, and I know how they feel. But also, it helped the public get a sense of what it was like, you know, I forget how common. I forget that the public doesn't really know what we do. What I do. It seems like this is just an ordinary day. And the people I hang out with, other writers, we all do this. That's nothing special. What we do doesn't seem special. We're just people doing it. But I imagine from the outside, you're pulling the curtain back and like, oh, that's what it is. So I think the public was interested in that kind of stuff.

Yeah. And so what else? So, I mean, definitely united the writers. But what would you say about the public following you? What else did it do with them? Did it trigger something in them to want to fight on your behalf or raise the profile?

Yeah, well, they shared. They shared the stories. I didn't. They asked what they could do, and I was like, well, here's a link if you want to donate. There's a strike fund which helps out people who are in need of. Even in other industries. They did that, or. But just sharing, honestly just sharing it helped because you're just. You're just raising awareness. And that put. I guess that put pressure on the studios. They knew you. You can talk better about this, I'm sure, like, why it's important to win the PR war.

And why do you think they lost it?

I, I, you know, I don't know. Like, I was. I guess it was because we were able to paint ourselves as the underdogs and they were the. The rich, you know, CEOs, which is what they are.

Yeah. Trying to paint you all as the villain. You know, as an aside, do you remember when I did that post about the strike when they hired the firm in Washington, D.C. okay. And the CEO, her name was Molly. And I said, yeah, can't really duck another Molly. That post. When I. So when I posted it, like after 24 hours, it only had like 1200 views, which, you know, I mean, not. I don't mean this to come off as a flex by any means, but I could. I could get 1200 views in like 45 seconds, right? And part of me thought, I wonder, is this like some house? Like some big conspiracy? Like if they follow a hashtag and then they bury any strike content?

Oh, that's interesting, because I made a post about it. Well, my feeling in that post was they put, there's an announcement in the trades that the studios hired a big expensive PR firm. And I was like, why are you telling everyone? Keep it to yourself. Like your studios are spinning the narrative because they're dead. Keep that part a secret. If you're good and, you know, if you're gonna have hire somebody to basically spin and lie for you, don't tell everyone that's what you're doing. Just do it. I was like, how do you. How'd you screw that up, too?

Well, I think the. Again, like, I think it's the same reason why Bob Iger was sitting there in his. In his three quarter zip pullover, you know, as the sun was setting in the mountains. I think it was this flex to the writers to say, we're serious and we mean business and now we're going to dc. And so in my post, why I was interested, because obviously I was being tagged like crazy because now they hired a PR firm. So the firm is, is out of Washington D.C. and it's the Levison Group, and it's run by Molly Levinson. So she has a background in, in media, she's worked in the press, she's worked in politics. So she's just a real like DC gal. And, you know, started this firm and it's filled with Washington people who have a lot of experience, so extensive media experience. But when I did a little bit of a deep dive, and I'm not one of those tiktokers that goes like way deep. And then they have these amazing, you know, I'm surface level, I'm like 45 seconds max in half of my research. But this one interested me because on their website, all the clients that they were profiling were true underdogs. And they're the. They're the underdog firm. You know, it was women's soccer and it was just all these causes and I thought, isn't that interesting that AMPTP came in and thought that this was going to be the group that was going to be able to, to help them.

How interesting the interest. You're right. They should have, they should have gone with the. Whoever does Exxon or whatever.

Exactly. You go for the killers. Now you're saying it like you never saw my post.

You're like, no, I didn't see that one news.

You see, I'm telling you, I watch all your posts.

I, I creep on all your posts.

No, but you creep. No, but this, you know, but this is the one that was buried. But this is also the one that you said, right? Your pal, the one who I named my daughter after. The one. She reported it to you.

Right. And you know what else, though? I was going to mention there was another, there was another post yesterday or two days ago. It was like the studios put out a. Put out, like a press release that the studios gave the writers their, their best and final offer. And then like that went viral because every writer started pitching on, pitching on how dumb that sounds. And that went viral on TikTok or whatever, Twitter, whatever it's called. And then also the strike signs, which I'm pointing to. I have my strike sign there. That helped because we're on the pick on the sign carrying strike signs and we're writing. It was just writers writing jokes and like dumb stuff.

Okay, that is such a simple concept, but I thought it was brilliant because it allowed like an optic of everything is the same every single day. It's just like people walking in front of the sign. And the only variation was it's super hot today or it's not. Or NBC cut all the trees so there wouldn't be, you know, shade. But the fact that you guys could write your, your, you know, you know, write whatever you wanted on there made it fresh content.

Yeah. And it was, it put a lot of pressure because I remember the very first day I showed up, someone, literally, someone shoved a pen in my hand. Go ahead. And I'm like. And then like five writers are looking at me and I'm like, oh, crap.

So what was, what was your first. I know you did a post on. I can't remember what it was, but what was it?

I have it over here. Hold on.

Okay. Show them. Don't go. Show us. It's a video.

Okay. I don't know if you can see it. I have my sign and it says, it says.

Are you, are you introducing that language.

Into my, your G rated podcast. Kids go to Sleep.

No, you moved it. All I saw was the F word. What does it say? It says, I'm on strike. You write the F and sign at Michael Jammon. Oh, nice. Okay, that's good. Do people like that?

Oh, yeah. They all started laughing. I was. Oh, good. Because that was pressure. Like, you gotta. When you're a bunch of writers, you come up with something funny.

That is pressure. What were one of the funnier captions that you saw in those signs?

You know, just variation. I don't know. A lot of punny stuff. Variations of, you know, goofy jokes. You know, what happens is on day. On day one, you carry your own sign. But after that, for the most part, you're just picking up random signs. And so you might carry a sign with something stupid. Like there was every morning, you'd show up to the picket line, like, oh, God, I gotta find a good sign. That's terrible. That's bad. That's bad. All right, this will do.

Oh, really? No kidding. So it's like a. It's like a cruel game of dodgeball, but it's with a picket. So you said punny. What's the. What's the definition of punny? Is that a writer's.

A pun is. Pun is the lowest pun. Yeah, it's the lowest form of humor. So you, like. You don't want to pitch a pun.

Oh, you don't want to pitch a pun. Oh, I get it. Okay.

That's not very. That's not pun. You know, that's not. That's. Oh, God.

Oh, Is that the term? Is that what people. People say?

Punny is like. Yeah, like, you don't want to do.

That, so you don't want it. It's okay from you.

What?

You don't want to do a clam.

A clam. Right. It's okay. Like, on a picket sign. It's okay, you know, because you. It's kind of grabby, but in a script, you don't really want to do it.

And a clam, again, is what? Like, it's a cliche.

A clam is a joke. We've heard before. Said no one ever.

Yeah, that's a clown.

I was today years old when I learned that. Right.

Yes.

Okay.

You will never, ever find me writing that term. I've never.

Right. You don't put it.

Okay, so now. So we've gone through tactics, we've gone through social media. So what's the third thing that you think really changed it up that made a difference in this strike?

The fact that the actors happened to go on the strike the same time we did because now they're picketing with us and they're high profile. They're getting more coverage because who wants to see. Everyone wants to see the actors. No one wants to see.

They want to see a bunch of writers with their punny signs.

Yeah.

Sweating. So tell me about the actors then. Like, who are some of the actors that you saw out there?

Well, the first day, the first day I was walking at Warner Brothers and this actor named Chris Gorham who I worked with on out of Practice, and he works quite a bit. And so, hey, I hadn't seen him in 10, 15 years. So we were picketing together and then we were walking around the whole day and I kept on getting stopped because people were like, hey, TikTok, Michael Jamie, writer. And then one of them, hey, this is Chris Gorham over here. Hey, Michael Tamman, writer.

Sorry, Chris, sorry, not your time. So what was it with the actors? Could you tell? Like, did all the actors, like, was it a thing? Was it bad not to strike? Like, what was the. What were the unwritten rules for actors when it came to the strike?

Oh, I mean, I'm not sure. I didn't. Picketing. Nothing there. I don't know if they're unwritten rules. They would just walk, you know.

But were there a lot of them doing it? Like, at what level? Like, like A, B, C, D. Like, were there A level picketers?

Yeah, I mean, I. The problems I missed the day. I think I had a. I had a call I couldn't get out of. I was going to go to the 20th Century Fox because Wendy Malik and Laura Sandracomo, who are both lovely. I worked with them.

Shoot me.

Yeah. So they had, they. They rented a. I don't know, either a coffee truck or a hot dog truck where they're giving up free food to everyone. And I missed it because I couldn't get down there. It was just shooting day.

It was just. Okay, so here's a question. What is she doing for work? Laura Sanji.

Laura was recently on. She was recently on Barry, but only one or two episodes.

Oh, was she?

Yeah, she was great.

She was on Pretty Woman.

Yeah. Yeah.

Do you remember what her name was in Pretty Woman?

Kit, wasn't it?

Oh, I was gonna say it's Cat, but I think you're right. Kit.

Yeah.

Very good.

Oh, my gosh, she's so sweet. She's the best.

She seems like it is. And you know a lot of people that you'll just drop in a Conversation that they're just pals, but then they're. They're actors. And then I always do just this, like, record scratch in my brain.

Like what?

Like, that's a friend of Michael's.

Like, yahoo. I mean, I don't. I mean, you know, they're. Yeah, I guess so. I don't. I don't hang out that much, but.

Well, no, but, you know, a lot of people just because.

Yeah, I know.

I mean, obviously your work. Obviously your work. Okay, but what else? Like now, back in 2008, the writers, the actors weren't on strike, were they?

No, they were not. The actors have not been on strike with the writers since. Since 1960.

Really? How long was that strike?

I don't know. I might have been a little longer than this one. I don't. I don't know how, you know, I wasn't around Molly.

Okay, so other. Well, almost. So what? So when the actors, you know, jump on board, do you think, like, the actors were on board with that?

I kind of think so. You know, the really rich ones, they can strike. You know, it's. George Clooney is going to be okay. So it's okay. He's happy to go on strike to help out the working actors, I feel. And it was the working actors who need it, who need, you know, who are really struggling.

Yeah. And we didn't hear from a lot of actors who were struggling. So that really wasn't a storyline in the strike. Except for Billy Porter was the one person who I heard, you know, said that he was on the brink of losing his home. Yeah, Billy Porter. Kinky beats kinky boots. Billy Porter. But when I heard that, I thought, oh, wow, you know, that does. That does hit home.

Yeah.

You know, when you hear.

Bryan Cranston was very vocal.

Yeah, he was. Yeah, he was good. So was there anything else, do you think, having the actors come in, did that help the, like, raise the visibility for the public, you think? To learn more about what you.

Also, it does. It says that. Okay, so it's not just the writers who are being unreasonable. It's the actors who are being now. It's other people are being unreasonable. So maybe we're not being unreasonable after all.

Yeah. So. Okay. So not to switch over. I know you have your guild, but can you look at the perspective of just Fran Drescher? Because so many people are familiar with her, and she received a lot of coverage, you know, for the strike and negotiation. They're still in the negotiation phase. Do you know anything about sag, Aftra like right where they are in the strike.

No, I don't. I don't. But I'll say I. The fact that we have gotten this deal will make their deal easier to get because that's why the sister guilds are backing. We're backing the Writers Guild because they knew that the better the deal that we get, the more likely it is that they'll get a good deal. Because when they go to negotiate, the studios can't say, well, that's not on the table when it was on the table for the writers. So there's, you know, they're asking for comparable things. There's some. There's some overlap. And so it'll make it easier for SAG to get a good deal. So I don't think. My predict. I don't think SAG is going to be on strike for another three months. I think we're talking weeks.

Oh, you're talking weeks. Okay. Is there anything that you could say about Fran Drescher? I mean, I know that she represents saying SAG aftra, but what did you notice in terms of her leadership that may have made a difference?

Well, I'll tell you this. So I. I directed Fran Drescher when I was running a show.

Why did I know that there'd be.

A friend Martin Story with. I directed everybody in the show.

Okay.

So she came. She comes on to play this part, and she was great. She was lovely. It was, you know, nice seeing Fran Dredger and so. But she wasn't quite getting it. She wasn't. And I was trying to direct her, you know, giving her notes, and then finally I. I said. I kind of walked up and go. And I don't. I didn't want to say it, but I had to say it. I go, can you kind of do it like the nanny? And she was. Oh, sure. Like, she was. She went, right. No problem. No problem at all.

Interesting.

She was game. Like, you know, you don't know how someone's gonna react. She was, oh, fine. You know, she had no ego. She was like, sure, I get it. That's the joke. Sure. And so I found her to be lovely. So that, to me, says a lot about a person, that one little interaction. So when she was, you know, in charge of the. She's the president of the Screen Actors Guild, people like her. I think the other. I think the people around her like her and want her to do well because she's a likable person.

Because she. Because she took your notes?

Well, no, because, like, she's the kind of person. Yeah, she's the kind of person, like, sometimes actors. There are actors who freak out, and that was not her, you know, but.

Did you notice, I don't know if you watched any of the press conferences that she had or just any of her interviews?

Oh, she's feisty.

Yeah. Okay. I was gonna ask you, what Persona was she wearing? I mean, you know her personally?

No, I wouldn't say I know her well.

I mean. Well, you know her more than the average person. But what, like, what did feisty Fran Drescher do? Like, what. What signal did that send, do you.

Think, even to, you know, when you're yelling at these studio heads, oh, give it to them. Like, none of us have the courage to do it. Right.

So everybody liked it.

Yeah. So I was like, yeah, good for her. You know, yay. You know, because she has the courage to stand up to them. Bryan Cranston was the same way.

Do you think that other actors in SAG or after Sister Guilds, like, do you think they thought that she did a good job, like, looking at her thinking, oh, she's making a difference here?

I don't know. I don't talk to the guild leadership, the Writers Guild, but she was being a squeaky wheel. Good. I mean, you know, you want. Here's the thing in Hollywood, you want your agent and your manager. You want them to be pains in the asses. You want your guild to be a pain in the ass because that means they're advocating for you, you know? Sure. I don't want. I don't want you to like anybody who represents me. Okay. You know. Yeah, so that's our bulldogs.

Yeah. So that's our bonus mobilization tip or our bonus tip about the new playbook is be a pain in the ass. Is that what you're saying?

Well, have someone be a pain in.

The ass for you on your behalf.

Yeah.

Well, I presented a crisis plan today, and part of the issue was, you know, there's a union element, you know, that was in this crisis. And what I was mentioning is, you know, now is the day of a time where a lot of these unions have a lot more, you know, just kind of juice and energy behind them. Like, last Friday, I had a friend of mine, you know, a colleague of mine, send me a live link, and they're in a position where they can't say anything publicly, but they follow. They sent it to me because they knew that this would be something I'd be interested in. And it was the. It was the. It was the union, the auto the auto workers Union, you know, YouTube live, and they are. It was a call to arms. You know, he's at the podium and he's. And he's just calling out all the towns. He's like, I want you, Cleveland. I want you, St. Paul. I want you, boss. And he's going through all the cities. Today's the day we're striking. I thought, wow, look at that. This is the new Playbook. So you're talking about digital, talking about social.

Yeah.

And you guys, I'd say the wga you wrote the Playbook.

The new Playbook. That's nice for you to say that. Yeah. I don't know. You know, that's the thing. The thing is everyone knows the middle class is being squeezed. Everyone knows that there's a huge wealth gap. Huge. And I don't think people even realize how big the wealth gap is between the very rich and everyone else. Like, the rich are no longer rich. They're, like, filthy rich.

Yeah.

And so. And so I think there's that element of that going on now. It's like, hey, you gotta. You gotta start sharing some of this money.

Okay, so, Michael, on every episode of the Indestructible PR podcast, which I'm sure you listen to every week, and you.

Already know, I have it on a loop. I go to bed to it. Nothing makes me fall asleep faster than.

Me going, I always like to add one little takeaway, and it's, you know, just like a little tidbit about how people can either like, build an indestructible reputation or kind of like tips from the new Playbook. So over the past three months, or even your new life on TikTok, what would you share with someone in terms of, like, you know, just kind of like guidelines Playbook speak of, I don't know, just communicating or advocate advocating for something that you want.

Any type of tip that you could share authenticity. So don't pretend to be something you're not. Just speak your truth. And it doesn't have. You don't have to speak for the world. You have to speak for your guild. You don't have to speak for your union. You're just speaking for yourself. And when you just tell the truth, you can't get called out for that because it's your truth. I love that.

That's very. That's very Molly esque, isn't it?

I think so.

True. Yeah, I think so, too. Or as you would do on your TikToks, whenever you talk about a woman. Did you see my comment Today.

Yeah. But I did see that when you do a woman, you go, I did. I did this. I did this. I did that. Right? I know.

What's this?

What am I supposed to do? What should I do?

Well, I mean, it's better than other things, I suppose, but, like, every woman you ever do is.

No, not every. But I didn't do this. I did. Oh, it was. It was this. Oh, my. Thank you.

No, it wasn't.

Yeah, it was. No, you gotta watch it again. Because I said I watched it again to make sure it wasn't. It was this. I said to her. I said to her it was the woman at the pharmacist who was gonna give me a shot. I said to her, you know, you're my favorite pharmacist. And she goes, oh, thank you. It was that. Oh, thank you. And then I said, take it easy. I don't know a lot of pharmacists.

Well, ichaeljammonriter. Thank you so much for Molly.

Thank you for having me.

Well, I would say thank you for speaking with me, but we speak all the time. But I mean, thank you for speaking with me formally on the podcast. This was a perfect time.

Yes. And we have other adventures together.

We do. This is the first of many to come down the road. So, Michael Jam, and congratulations on the success of the end of the strike. The conclusion of the strike.

I'll give you a big hug, Molly. Thank you.

All right, bye. My thanks to my friend Michael Jamman for joining me on this episode. We've been looking for a reason to record an episode together, and with the writer strike ending, we found it. You can find Michael on his website, michaeljamma.com or you can listen to his podcast, Screenwriters need to hear this. And did you know he offers an online screenwriting course? You can find that on his website. And of course, I have to mention he has a new book coming out, A Paper Orchestra. It's coming out soon. So if you like David Sedaris, I promise you, you will love this book. Now, in the intro, I mentioned an NBC tie in. A few weeks ago, I spoke with NBC Insider about the new show premiering tonight on NBC. That is, if you're listening to this on the day that the podcast is published, head on over to NBC and check it out. And you let me know if you notice any similar similarities in the main character in the television series. Found. Because this series centers on Gabby Mosley. She's a publicist who leads a crisis management team. So the NBC Insider reached out to Me, because they wanted to ask an expert about how life imitates art. In fact, that's the first line of the article that was published on September 18. Art imitates reality. Right? So they sat down for an interview with me, and they were asking me about, you know, just about the life of a, you know, a crisis communication expert. And one of the first questions that I asked when they wanted my opinion, you know, about, you know, just my take on the role, the first question they asked me was, you know, what does a cross crisis communication expert do? And I said, well, why don't you tell me first what Gabby does? Like, what's the premise of the show? And the first thing that she mentioned to me, she said, okay, you just got to bear with me on this. I thought, okay. And the main character, as I mentioned, was Gabby. And she got into this line of work many, many years ago because she was kidnapped by a stranger off the streets, held captive in a basement, and forced to live with this man. Well, that man is Saved by the Bells, Mark Paul Gosler. So anyone who's a Saved by the Bell fan, he is in this. He's in this series. And so what happens is she turns the tables on him, and then he becomes the missing person, the captive, so to speak, and she forces him to help her find other missing persons. So when she told me that, I remember just staring, like, what? Like, how did you think that my job had any relation to what Gabby does? But then the more that I thought about it, I went, well, wait a minute. I spend a lot of time in my basement, like when I'm working or working out, just like Mark Paul. But one thing that I did mention to her is, you know, usually people who work in, you know, crisis management or crisis communication work, they usually come from either a field or a life experience where they've either. Where they. Where they either experience trauma or they've seen trauma. And certainly when I was working for the cruise line industry and in fema, I definitely saw, you know, disasters, you know, up close. And then when I was run over by a van when I worked for fema, that was also my trauma as others. So I thought by the end of the interview, I thought, I think I am Gabby Mosley. But anyway, definitely check it out and I will include a link to the article if you want to check that that out as well. Are missing persons crisis firms like the one seen in Found Real? We asked an expert, find out what crisis communications expert Mollie McPherson had to say about Shanola Hampton's character. So, please, I want to get your opinion after you read what I had to say. That's all for this week on the podcast. Thanks for listening. Bye for now.