263: Celebrity Unplugged: Magazine Writer Vanessa Grigoriadis on Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, & Justin Timberlake

This episode is about former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo. Excuse me, was that's the episode I prepped for in anticipation of this interview with my guest, who sent me an embargoed recording of America's governor, all about the rise and fall of New York's Lovegov. And I listened to the episode, no kidding, while driving on the Governor Mario M. Cuomo Bridge located 20 miles north of New York City. I was on my way to the North Shore of Long island and I was so excited to drop that nugget with my guest this week. But I never got the chance. We never even uttered the name Cuomo, not once. She mentioned Katy Perry. And if you follow me, you can follow exactly what happened next is that when she was with Russell Brand and that led to the who's who of interview topics. Welcome to the Indestructible PR podcast. I'm Molly McPherson, your crisis communication strategist and your guide through the world of breaking news and pop culture. Join me as we analyze the juiciest moments and extract valuable PR lessons. Let's master the tricks of the trade, or at least spot them to help us all build an indestructible reputation. So join me as we go behind the headlines this this week, let's journey into the world of celebrity image management. My guest this episode is Vanessa Grigoriadis, a glossy magazine writer who has written cover stories that have appeared in New York Magazine, New York Times, Vanity Fair, Rolling Stone, to name a few. Vanessa and I are about the same age, but she was like a cool pop culture girl from the 90s in New York. Now she's a podcaster with her company Campside Media. They produce a lot of phenomenon, phenomenal, interesting podcast, including hers called Infamous. And she's covered people like Gwyneth Paltrow and her ski trial, Kylie Jenner's Plumping Profits. And of course there was New York Governor Andrew Cuomo. I definitely think that you should check out that episode. It's a two part series. It is fascinating. You're not going to hear about it in this episode because we are going to go into another part of Vanessa's world, the world of celebrity.

I have been a glossy magazine writer for many, many years. I started at New York Magazine, then I was at Vanity Fair in Rolling Stone and very well known for big cover stories on Britney Spears or Katy Perry. I spent like four days with Taylor Swift when she was 19 years old. I just got crazy access to a lot of people. I wrote the first Lady Gaga story that anybody ever wrote that she did completely in character, her Lady Gaga character. And just like sort of have a reputation for being early on a lot of figures that will become big later on, like calling that and also getting a lot of access and spending a lot of time with people. And I love scandals.

Well, speaking of scandals, speaking of, we won't go too deep in this because I already know there's like seven podcasts I could do with you on this topic, but Katy Perry, when everything happened with Russell Brand three weeks ago, did that not surprise you?

Okay, so Katy Perry, I actually went to her house in Los Feliz that she lived in with Russell Brand back when I covered her for Rolling Stone. And I remember so vividly, like she was really into like the cute Japanese culture. In the middle of the interview, she left and she went and she put on like a little baby kimono and these like fluffy Japanese slippers that were like little cats or something. And you know, the thing about Katy Perry is like, she's very a young soul in a lot of ways. She's got a lot of like verve to her. And then we went up to Russell Brand's home office, basically his lair, and it was so like old. It was so like really like sumptuous couches and man desk and stuff. And he was out of town. I just remember thinking to myself, wow, this is really weird because these two people are so different. He's a comedian, but he's not really a comedian. And she is like a cute little girl in a lot of ways who just is extremely smart. Right. And like has her finger on the pulse of culture, but also naive.

Would you say that she could fall for someone like Aristotle?

Yeah, I don't know if she's naive as much as she's sort of still this like 15 year old girl who was brought up like Christian and you know, used to go to farmers markets with her parents and sort of like play music there, I think, or whatever. You know, they were like not wealthy Christian preachers, basically her parents that just were rolling around in California. And she essentially used that youngness of her, like real self to dominate musical culture. Whereas he seems to have used this like, masculine energy to get increasingly unpleasant and put this like conspiracy theory sort of evilness into the world. At least from my perspective.

Oh, interesting. So when you were in his lair and you watched the video of Russell Brand in his new. Well, it was, you know, wherever studio he was backdrop, it all came together and made sense to you?

Yeah, I mean, I very much felt like, oh, this is the guy who. I mean, when I see him talking a lot of times, it does actually sort of look like this room that I saw. I thought he did a relatively good job, actually, from a PR perspective with handling that. Although I think he's gonna go to prison.

Yes.

Like, I think this is extremely serious. But I would be curious to ask you, because I felt like from a PR perspective, it wasn't that bad. He came out before the articles came out. He got his little fans all excited about how this could potentially be a conspiracy.

Yes.

From his perspective, he maybe shouldn't have gone and done those shows that he did, because then there were, like, all these photos of him in sunglasses looking very besieged. But the initial response, I've really started to think that people should respond and say, I believe I'm innocent of the charges if they're gonna fight them that way.

Yes.

Because saying nothing is worse is worse.

And, Vanessa, it's interesting. So I just gave a talk a couple days ago, and I added Russell Brand to the talk, to the keynote, because the rule book that he's following or the playbook that he's following is one that worked for a long, long time. And that is where you deny what was said about you. You deny the allegations, you diminish the. And then you want to get through it, and then you rebuild to whatever it is that you're doing. And that worked for a lot of people. But it's difficult now in a social media environment because there's so much evidence against you. But with Russell Brand, you're absolutely right. He did a lot of strategic moves, his timing. And even in the timing of dropping his second video, it was almost to the second. It was late enough that it missed all the feeds, so no one could cover it on Friday because he knew in a couple days they were doing more interviews. So, yeah, from a PR perspective, he's doing all the right things. But as a human, what he did, he shouldn't get away with it.

No. And I don't think he will. And I think that's the thing, is a lot of people, when they're caught in these problems, they think to themselves, like, how do I save my career? And it's like, dude, you have a much more serious problem. But the wheels of justice are slow. And this is going to go on for a few years like this. Who even knows? Sometimes juries don't decide, or maybe there's a plea or who knows? But it's so fascinating. Like, the human brain cannot take in that much punishment, you know? So like, first people concerned about their image and then they start reckoning with like, oh my God, I might actually really have a serious legal problem. I mean, it sort of happens like that often. But I just think like, he. Again, I'm not like saying this is good. I think these stories look very credible to me. You know, I don't think this is like a me too situation where it's like being pieced together by some journalist that's trying to like just make a deadline. You know, this looks real. But I will say that he is going to get the benefit of timing, which is like, nobody cares about these stories anymore. People are just sick of them. They don't want to hear them. And you know what? They're not that surprised by this. With Russell Brand they're like, right, what, so Russell Brand is like doing this kind of misconduct. Like people who wrote off Russell Brand already wrote off Russell Brand. Right. Like as a Joe Rogan ish dude who's just out for attention and clicks and sort of the faux wellness angle mixed with like this real need to dominate, you know, a media space. So I don't know, I mean, it's fascinating to think, like, what would happen if Harvey Weinstein came out? Like, if that stuff came out today, what would happen? I think he still would be in trouble, but it wouldn't be the way it was.

It would have been a different defense. And you're absolutely right. And you and I were talking this before the recording about how just our knowledge of just life and experience and watching news cycles and understanding how they work. If Me Too happened now, it would be an entirely. Because MeToo is also like a Twitter dominated type of cycle that everyone was in. But it's also based on the charges itself. Like if you take a Lizzo and a Russell Brand, they're using the exact same playbook for response. But I don't think Lizzo's was appropriate because hers was workplace harassment, which I think her lawyers could have fixed for her and she could have reemerged.

No, she made a big mistake. Yeah, yeah, she definitely made a mistake. That was not the right way to deal with it because she has such a clean image, unlike Russell Brand and so much goodwill that she, by responding, she actually created more certainty in the women's stories. Like, oh, this is real. Whereas if she didn't respond, people would have been like, oh, maybe they're making it all up. Like, I don't know. You know, she hasn't even responded. But the deeper. Yeah, I mean the fascinating thing now that Twitter is essentially imploding is to think about how the news cycles will shift. Because, I mean, certainly if Elon Musk puts a subscription on Twitter, like that is a subscription fee, that is the end of Twitter. But even right now, part of why people stopped responding, I think for a while is if you responded, there were these really, really smart writers and journalists on Twitter that would take apart your response, explain exactly how it was bs, make fun of it, create some meme about it that could potentially take off and be viral, and then you could really do yourself damage. Right. Like, you almost didn't see that happen with Russell Brand. Like, you didn't see a pylon where people sort of dissected his responses and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and make it way, way worse for him.

Well, I did, but it's just me. But you're saying journalists, you know, I mean, that's just what I do. But.

Well, I'm saying, like, the greater the hive mind of Twitter, that can really just lock into somebody.

Yeah, I think, because what you're touching on and what you and I are saying about Russell Brand is the PR strategy was good. It was. I don't want to call it brilliant, but it was good. In other words, he's placing a lot of emphasis on strategy right now in terms of reputation. And also with Twitter, like he's. Or X, he's sending out the signal to his followers, to his supporters, which a lot of them are on Twitter. You know, that's where a lot of them are. And that type of. When you get into misogyny, social media, where there's profit for clicks and profit for content, it can support you just like Johnny Depp in the trial. It is a whole new subculture of how you can use public relations, like, of just the machinations of how you can work your way through it. So I think Russell Brand, I think you and I would agree, as far as playbooks go, he's writing one right now that is probably based a lot off of Donald Trump. And it works. It just doesn't help him legally, though.

It doesn't help him legally. But the thing is that like that old thing where criminal defense attorneys used to say to people who were hiring them, you cannot say anything because if you say something, the judge won't like it and it could affect people and blah, blah, blah, blah, like, I don't want you to say anything to anybody until this trial is wrapped or the plea is done. It doesn't really work anymore because juries go online and if they don't see your perspective and what you have to say, or at least your surrogates, you are potentially in trouble. You know, like, every criminal defense attorney you talk to is like, 100% of these juries are being told, don't go online. And 100% of the people are going online and, like, reading up about it. So if they see a nexium, like, barrage of, like, sex, cult, worst person alive, blah, blah, blah, blah, with no response.

Yes. Okay. So that's. That's just the other strategic angle to it, is you're putting the content, you're putting information, you're putting the narrative out there. Now, when there is an eventual court case. Can you think of a case now? Because, I mean, you've been covering people for years, and you've been in this, like, celebrity realm, political celebrity realm. Can you think of a case before TikTok, before Twitter, where a lawyer going hard on the defense. Don't say anything. We're going to cover it. You know, we're going to cover everything down and diminish it. And they got through it. Even though you knew they were guilty.

Oh, my God.

Where the strategy actually worked.

I know.

It's. I don't like it either. When people ask me to pull things from the back of my brain.

I'm like, I don't know.

I know. It's so hard.

Did Casey Peterson say anything? She might not have said anything.

Wait, Casey Peterson?

I mean, Casey, the one with her daughter and the.

Oh, Lacey. No, wait, we're conflating everyone. Scott Peterson. Scott Peterson's wife was Lacy and their son Connor. And then there's Casey Anthony.

Anthony, yeah.

Yes. Okay.

I want to say she didn't say anything. She didn't say anything, and she got off.

You're right.

And she's almost. I mean, in just my opinion. But she is most likely guilty, you know?

Yes, but there are people out there, though, who think now that she's innocent. Well, you know, people who are thinking that now. So I think. Wasn't there a Netflix show with it?

There was, yeah. I think somebody's making another one. Yeah. I mean, look, I could be wrong. I mean, well, like. Like, how about Johnny Depp and Amber Heard? I mean, how do you think the media affects that? I'm not that close to that story. I'm curious what you think.

Yeah, well, I just sat down for an interview with Vice. They're doing a series on the nine lives of celebrities. Like, celebrities.

Oh, I did this, too. I did this, too.

That's so funny. Stop it.

I did it.

We're in the same.

We're in it together. Oh, my goodness.

Yes.

I love it. Oh, my gosh. So you did Johnny Depp then?

I did Johnny Depp.

Okay, that's really funny. Yeah.

Oh, my gosh, that's so funny. I did Johnny Depp, I did Arnold Schwarzenegger, I did Howard Stern, and I did Hulk Hogan. And then they had Paris.

I did Paris, and they asked me if I could talk about Howard Stern. And I was like, dude, I do not know anything about Howard Stern. Like, I can't do that for you.

Can you believe this? Oh, this is hysterical.

It's really funny.

All right, so if you did Paris, okay, I'll tell you what I said about Johnny, but tell me about Paris Hilton. So tell me about her. Did you. Was your angle how she got through it?

I mean, again, because I did all this access reporting, I spent a night with Paris. Not a night in Paris, but like a night with Paris. I had one of the greatest, like, Rolling Stone experiences ever.

Tell me in.

I mean, what this was like, seriously. Two weeks before the sex tape came out, and I was assigned a story on her by Rolling Stone. It might have actually been my idea. And I'm sort of off the Simple Life. It was just like a two or three page story. And so the publicist says, meet her at Coy. You guys are gonna meet for dinner. This is where you go, blah, blah, blah. And I said, okay, great. And as I'm going there, the publicist calls and is like, hey, I know this is a little weird, but Paris doesn't have a car. Can you drive Paris home? And I was like, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Getting her in the car, definitely Drive Paris home. No problem. So, you know, I get to the restaurant. It's like her and Nikki Hilton. And remember Casey Johnson, who was Tila Tequila's girlfriend for a little while, who's the Johnson and Johnson heiress who died and all that? Yes.

Oh, my goodness.

So we're like having dinner, and then they're like, we're going to a club. Do you want to come? And I was like, sure. And they're like, okay. Like, Paris gets in my car, and we were out till like 6am we actually got our purses stolen together. Like, I was like, wow, we're really bonded. Like, I drove her back and it was light outside.

Oh, my gosh. I'd be so tired even thinking of that.

Yes. So Paris career is fascinating, right? Because she was Kim before Kim. Kim definitely learned from her from Paris. You Know, Kim was her closet stylist, but then she sort of went into this weird, like, dead zone. Right. Like, where she was, like, big in Japan, but not, like, big here. And Kim sort, like, of seems stole her thunder. And she's got something obviously weird going on with her mom. And this need to be seen as, like, a perfect little girl. Like, there's almost like that JonBenet thing happening. Like a high end JonBenet kind of thing. And then, you know, I mean, I hate to say this, because I think Paris is actually really cool and really smart, but she did get married to somebody who was like, you are a business. Like, you're a business, and it's not going right, and I'm gonna, like, get this in shape. And, like, I don't want to put down Paris and say she's not part of it, but certainly, like, having a partner. Look, there are a lot of couples like that, right. Where there's, like, one person who's helping the strategy of the other person. She's completely turned it around in the last two years. I thought her documentary was incredible, you know, where she really showed who she was. And now she's being really smart and strategic. And she put out this book, and she doesn't tell her whole story in the book. She just tells a little part.

Yeah, like a fishing expedition to get people in. Yeah. And she's more vulnerable now. Like, she's giving people insight into her early years and how she. Yeah, that's interesting, because when they gave me the list of names, because some clearly, like, they had some big blow up and then they survived it. But I thought, oh, yeah, Paris Hilton wasn't so much like a PR disaster. She was just such a fascinating person. And even remember the jail? Like, you remember, they were, like, filming the helicopters above her. Oh, my God. I think people felt sorry for her.

I know, but the only part about this whole renovation of people's images that I sort of hate is, like, also, Paris was, like, the number one mean girl in Hollywood. Like, she's very well known for a very cutting, nasty sort of sense of humor. Putting people down, like, you know, like, almost like a drag queen sort of camp, but it's a little bit like, oh, my God, I do feel bad for her. Like, she did go through horrible things, but let's also, like, the comeuppance, not too many tears when, like, she was also dancing on a table and the world was taking pictures of her and she was making, like, little nasty remarks and having the time of her life that was Fun.

Yes. Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah. Like, it's like, say, like, the people at Studio 54 were traumatized, and that's why they were dancing, you know, like, come on. Oh, I totally get that.

Yeah. So she was like a Regina George, like, a mean girl. But it's almost like she lost control again, like, of her narrative, like, with the arrest and everything. That's when you could tell they were just kind of winging it. Like, the Hilton brand was spiraling out of control, and they couldn't contain it anymore. Oh, my God, that's so interesting. Yeah. So I feel the same way. When we talked about Johnny Depp. Now here we're breaking open their show before it even starts or comes out. But Johnny Depp had years of fandom behind him and, like, two cycles of it. He had 80s 21 Jump Street. Johnny Depp, and he was the bad boy, you know, Viper Room, River Phoenix. But, you know, now he's a Disney guy, and he's not a Disney villain. You know, he's kind of this, you know, swarthy. Yeah. But, you know, happy. Go lucky Jack Sparrow, where he gets all these younger people. So when a TR happens, you know, with an Amber Heard whose career doesn't even. It pales compared to Johnny Depp. So just from a fan perspective, she didn't have that goodwill support. But also, like I said, the monetization of misogyny and people talking about Johnny Depp and what Amber Heard's doing to him, it was a messy marriage that fell apart. That's just like anyone else's marriage. But because it was celebrities, we all saw it in real time. But Amber Heard had so many things going against her, and Johnny Depp knew that, and it played it to his advantage. You know, his legal team, I think, did that for him.

Yeah. It's interesting because Amber Heard, you know, sort of looks similar to Paris Hilton, but somehow she's like, Amber Heard is too perfect. She's too cold.

Yeah.

So I think that that's basically what they used is, like, this is a massy marriage like anybody else is, and she's trying to make it way more than that, and it's just not.

Yes.

I think, like, honestly, like, it's something like the Gwyneth ski trial, which, on my podcast, infamous. We just did the trial, which was unbelievable because the audio from the trial and the video for the trial, as we all know, because we watched it for an entire week, is like, gold. Like, it really is an iconic trial that she was part of.

Wait, did you Wait, that didn't come out yet.

It did. Oh, came out. Yeah, it came out. I think it came out in August.

Oh, in August. Oh, you already did it.

Okay. But it's all there. If you go to, like, infamous, you know, it's got a picture of a woman with a hand in front of her face. That feed has, like, tons and tons of stories. And if you just scroll back, who.

Is she supposed to be, by the way? Who is this woman supposed to be? Is she supposed to be based off of someone?

I don't know. I mean, you know, I think it's supposed to be, like, a Brittney Paris, like, Lindsay sort of idea.

I like it. I like it.

But basically, like, Gwyneth has to have known going into that trial that she was gonna win. And I bet you that Johnny Depp knew that, too.

Yes.

Like, these people are smart about their public images that they don't take that step. That's a very radical step of putting yourself in that place of vulnerability. And they're not gonna do it.

They're not gonna do it. But I do think one of the elements, though, with celebrity, whether it's Johnny Depp or Gwyneth Paltrow. Cause I was watching the whole Gwyneth experience happen. Because what I was noticing from my perspective, is what she did just before the trial, how she created, you know, that was the bone broth podcast interview moment. And where her brilliance in my mind is making goop, like, quirky talk. Like people talk about. Like, oh, my God, this is crazy. But she's strategic crazy. She's smart like a fox on that, because it gets people talking, you know, about goop. So everybody was talking about that. And so, yes, like, going into that trial, anyone could go in after seeing his legal team and seeing him, that she was going to win it. But what celebrities don't have is a true sense and confidence on the control of what's going to happen. When it's with the masses, we don't know what's going to go viral, who's going to uncover something that's going to spin it off into another direction. So there's that one element of fear that they do have. And, yeah, that Gwyneth trial was. Man, was that fascinating.

It was totally fascinating. Yeah. I think celebrities are more afraid now than they've ever been. Like, even though they're physically a lot safer, because there's a lot less paparazzi and there's like. I mean, I know that people have stalkers and. And all that, for sure. Who do, like, you know, public events, but, like, there aren't those car chases, right. The way there were for, like, Britney Spears or. But at the same time. And they think they can control everything through their social media, but they can't, and it's very disturbing to them. And there was a system before that I was sort of a part of, but I was always like, a little bit the fly in the ointment, where it was like, okay, if you want to get on the COVID of Rolling Stone, you've got to spend three days with Vanessa, you've got to take her on tour with you, you've got to take her to your house, like, blah, blah, blah, blah. And in return, she might be a little bitchy, but she's basically going to return you, like a really interesting biography of yourself. Right. And then there were different magazines where, you know, like, everybody knew if you were on the COVID of Vanity Fair, you were gonna get, like, a total blowjob. Right. Through a cover on the Rolling Stone. They really wanted you to say a couple crazy things, but, you know, it was gonna be nice. New York Magazine was probably gonna be pretty bitchy, you know, like, everybody sort of knew the deal. And with the diminishment of any access journalism, because a lot of people, like, I don't think Beyonce has given an interview in, like, six.

Yeah, I just talked about that yesterday. Yes, yes.

Like, there's no real institutionalized journalism going on for a lot of celebrities. And they're pretty psyched about that. Right. Because they didn't really want to do all this press to begin with. But the sort of devil's bargain is that they have less protection in terms of, like, crazy memes taking off, you know, somebody using their image now in AI making something weird fake happen and that going viral. The virality thing is, you know, would you rather have a journalist who is somebody who does this for a living and is going to portray you in an interesting way, be the person that you give access to, or would you rather have, like, the entire Internet chiming in about some picture of you with cellulite?

Right, right.

It's not even a contest. Right. So, yeah, it's complex because at the same time, I really roll my eyes when celebrities are like, everybody's being so mean to me. And it's like, grow up. Like, this is the bargain. You get fame and money, and in return, people get to leave mean comments on your Instagram page. Like, fucking grow up. You know? But they're like, you know, they're twisted. Their minds are all Twisted.

Okay, so this podcast has totally changed now. Okay, we're totally changed. So this is my edit point. No, this is my edit point. I just am marking it down because this is a whole new podcast. This is. This is interesting. So I'm going to do this edit point. We're going to jump back in because this is the topic I want to talk about. So let's do. Because I just did this interview yesterday with someone. It was their Vulture podcast with Vulture New Yorker, and we were talking about this very topic. So let's start off again and let's do a then and now, because you have experience with people. Like, you know what it was like to cover someone back then and how they don't have the same coverage now. So I'm going to jump back in about Rolling Stone. Okay, so who did you profile Rolling Stone? Was it just Katy Perry?

Let me look at. Meanwhile, I also have to say, you need to come on my podcast to talk about Meghan Markle at some point.

Oh, sure. Or absolutely.

Yeah. I never.

I always turn down the Royal podcast because they always just want to destroy her in a mean, horrible way. It's like, no, I don't want to get into that. If you want to talk critically, I'll talk about it. But you definitely. I would do that in a heartbeat.

No, I mean, my. This is what, like, my take is gonna be. Okay, hold on.

Can I.

Okay, well, let's go back. We'll talk about it later. Yeah, no, no, no. I know.

We have to touch it. We have to touch it now.

I did. I mean, I interviewed a lot of people. Like Usher. Who else?

Yeah, throw some names out. Like, who were you interviewing? Obviously, pre TikTok, even pre Twitter, when you're working for a glossy and there's a relationship there. I mean, it is a collaboration between you and their team. Who were some of the names? Like, you said, Paris Hilton. Who are some of the other names that you spent time with with when you were writing their stories?

I mean, I did a massive story on Justin Bieber when he was 16 that I got in a lot of trouble for. Why? Oh, my God, it was so crazy. So I was obsessed with Justin Bieber in a way that was like. I think people felt bad for me. Like, people didn't understand. Like, my friends would come over, I'd be like, can you see this boy in, like, his video? He's so cute. I can't, like, deal with it. He's so adorable. And so they were like, okay, who's about Justin Bieber? For Rolling Stone. And I was like, I am. I am writing this. And so they said, come down to Atlanta. You'll hang out with him. He's going to take you ice skating. And I was like, oh, my God, Justin Bieber's taking me ice skating.

Do you ice skate, Vanessa?

Well, I mean, terribly. And so I was like, what will I wear? And I spent so much time, like, planning my outfit, packed my outfit, took it down to Atlanta. Like, like, went to the hotel, ironed my outfit. And all the time I'm like, thinking to myself, like, I don't know how I'm gonna actually ice skate. Like, how am I gonna ice skate with this person? And then they were like, yeah, okay. Like, he's gonna pick you up outside the hotel. I'm like, waiting. It's like two hours late. You know, I'm like, standing there, standing there. And like, finally this, like, enormous SUV pulls up to the corner, door opens. And I was like. And I was like, oh, my God, this is a child. You know, he was like, five, two at this time. He had, like, braces on. And I was like, hi. And he's like, hey, what's up? And I was like, oh, yeah, it's like, great to meet you. Like, I'm really excited to go, like, ice skating. He was like, we're not going ice skating. That's so corny. And I was like, okay. But I was just like, I can't believe. Like, he kept talking. I think he had Invisalign. And he kept on being like, oh, my God, this just so uncomfortable. And I was like, this is not. This was not the what you expect, exactly.

So you had. You had a much different Justin Bieber, then all of a sudden became like a child with a braces, orthodontic problem. You're like, what am I doing here?

It was so crazy.

So you were in Atlanta. Were you in a skating outfit? Like, what?

No, no, no, no, no. I mean, I just had, like, a nice skirt on. And like, I had like an A line skirt, you know, but. And then I can't even remember. We went to. We did like a million things together and we went to, like, Dave and Buster's, and then they were, you know. Cause we were Rolling Stone again. We would get this sick access. So we're like, done in Atlanta and they're like, see you in LA in three days. And I was like, oh, my God. Okay, I'm going to la.

Okay.

So, you know, I go to LA to meet. Meet up with him, and he's got like a whole tour. He's on the Tonight Show. He's on this. He's on that stuff with him. And Selena is starting to break. Like, are they going out or not? Like, sitting with him in a car. He's got like. His screensaver is Selena. I'm like, obviously he's with Selena. You know, like, okay, but we haven't had a sit down yet, right? Like, we've just been hanging. Because the whole thing with Rolling Stone is like, let's play pool. Let's hang out, let's vibe, right? I'll be in the studio, I'll listen to. I listen to him sing a lot, you know, talk to his voice coach. Everybody was very concerned about, like, the Voice was changing. Like, what. What was going to happen with the Voice? And so I go to LA and, like, hanging out with his bodyguard downstairs in the Four Seasons. Like, you know, was there a parent?

Was his dad in any.

His mom was there.

His mom was there.

Okay. His mom was there.

Okay.

But they, like, canceled it or something. I can't remember. I had to come back again. And I was, like, sort of pissed because I'm like, tick tock, it's Rolling Stone, right? Like, we don't wait, you know? And so they usher me up to his room, and the publicist is like, all right, you're gonna do the sit down. Check you later. And she leaves. And they have been so on me, like, on me, on me, like, hanging on me while I'm, like, playing pool. And then they're like, cool, you're doing the sit down. We're out. And I was like, who does that? This is where the questions are gonna be asked.

What power moves.

So they left, left. And so this is what I got in trouble for. So basically I thought, you know, this is a guy who has control of, like, a large amount of the young female population, right? So I should ask him some real questions. So I said, like, what is your opinion on abortion? What is your opinion on abortion with incest involved? Because he was like, killing a baby, it's wrong. And I was like, okay, well, what about in the cases of, like, incest or something? And so he sort of. He gave a good answer. He was like, I'm not really sure, you know, sort of answer. I have to think about that more. But we had, like. I asked him some political questions. Like, we had just basically like, a little, like, let's have a real chat and see what's going on in your brain.

Vanessa, can I ask you a question? Can I Just ask you a question right now. So you're with a 16 year old and you're in.

That's what the.

Right. You're in Dave and Buster's. You're doing all this other stuff, right? So I get like now, now in a journalist's mind. So you have Justin Bieber and you recognize how much power and influence this kid has. I'm curious, what was the outcome you were after with those types of questions with Justin Bieber?

Well, I think at that time, everybody was trying to understand how Christian he was. Okay. Which did become a thing later on. Right. And where this kid was at in terms of. Of his real beliefs about women and society and family and what exactly was going on, you know, because they had remade him from a little Christian singer, right?

Yeah.

Into this massive, like pop sex symbol superstar. So that was what I was trying to get to. Now basically the question is this, like, was it inappropriate to ask those questions because he was almost 17, but like, was it inappropriate because he was 16? And so, I don't know. I mean, now I have a daughter who's 11 and I can't even imagine in five years asking her those questions, even if she was a star like Justin Bieber. Right. At the same time, Justin Bieber is a product that's being sold. And I think we've crossed over as a country where people's political beliefs are important. I think it's important to know because they're gonna speak out on them. And so it was sort of important to know who he was really, apart from, like the product.

From the product. Okay, so Justin Bieber then to Justin Bieber now with Hailey Bieber. Baldwin Bieber. What do you see when you see Justin Bieber now? And you, I mean, you were in the car at Dave and Buster's with a kid. What do you see when you see him now?

I mean, I'm sort of impressed, first of all, that he's still here. Right. Like, the idea that he is a teen idol that was able to cross over into having an adult career. Remember, like, that was really not the way it happened before. You know, like he was supposed to be on the ash pile of history, I think. I mean, obviously it's interesting given the recent news that he's not gonna work with Scooter Braun anymore. I mean, what I hear through the grapevine is Hailey Bieber's real smart. She also comes from a celebrity family, right. Where she grew up really understanding how this all works. And she maybe like Paris Hilton's husband is very invested in the business of Justin Bieber. And so when you talk to Justin now, you're talking to the two of them, and they're figuring out what the best way to play everything is together. So it seems to me like he's doing pretty well, you know, like, do I think his music's gonna sell forever? I don't know about that. Like, do I like the music he's putting out? Not really. Like, I only like those early songs.

Yeah.

So, you know, clearly. Yeah, you were. Clearly.

It's a different time. But, you know, and it is interesting that Haley coming from. She doesn't come from Alec. She comes from Steven, who in terms of the hierarchy, you know, the Baldwin hierarchy, you know, he had, you know, his moments, like the usual suspects, but he was not the premier. So you see, like, a Haley growing up almost strategically thinking, okay, what is my play here? I mean, even her career has been remarkable. And now just the influencing brand that she has. So now then, let's. Have you interviewed Britney Spears?

No, I haven't interviewed Britney Spears, but I wrote the very famous Britney Spears cover where she's in black and white and it says, like, an American Tragedy on it, which was basically based on me, like, spending two months with all the people who were covering her when she had her breakdown.

When she had her breakdown. So what do you think's happening now?

This is actually the story I'm, like, best known for.

Okay.

So basically, yeah, so the story that I wrote was about all the paparazzi and the whole industry of covering Britney Spears and all. Also, the way that she was part of it, Right. Like, that she would do these crazy car chases like, that. I went on, like, I went and put my body in danger. I was like, if I die on a Britney Spears car chase, like, I really am humiliated.

Not put that in the obituary. Right?

Yeah. You know, so I was up close and personal with her a lot, and she was playful in the way that you see her now with the paparazzi. Right. Like, don't forget, remember, she started dating one of them and they ran off to Mexico. So, like, it wasn't as simple as it's been portrayed now, where she was the victim. Certainly they were the aggressors. Right. But there was a very complex, weird thing going on that was obviously related to mental illness. And the judge at that time was talking about drug use. You know, So I have gone through, like, a really interesting journey with that whole story where, you know, this is a story that's, like, taught in journalism school. Like, it's a really weird, interesting story. There's a very famous journalism story called Frank Sinatra has a Cold. And it's about. It's a writer who just an older writer who just observes Frank Sinatra and never interviews him. This is a very similar story about Britney Spears, but people thought it was too harsh on Britney. And in the time of her documentaries and free Britney and everything like that, I became like, not a huge villain, but every once in a while people would be like, what is this?

Yeah, you're part of the problem for Britney.

And it was written in a way that was supposed to be very, like, provocative and like William Burroughs ish. And there's a lot of language in there that I maybe wouldn't stand behind today. But all that being said, I was like, how is this happening? That everybody's on this bandwagon of Britney is totally fine and the media is at fault. And her father, look, she always had this horrible relationship with her father. So I definitely think something happened there with the conservatorship that was not kosher. But I think you can see from her videos today that this is not a person who is.

Well, yeah, I think everyone's in agreement on that. Correct? Do you think.

I mean, they weren't a year ago.

Well, I just read about her mother and I don't know if this was tabloid. I don't know if I saw it in TMZ or New York Times. I have no idea. Clearly not New York Times, but that she is back at work. Like she's working. Just like she's either. I don't know what her profession is. Maybe you remember. I don't know if she's a nurse or whatever, but. Or a teacher maybe, but they don't have that financial funnel coming in anymore. But it seemed like it was such a dysfunctional family. Like, know you, the marriage was dysfunctional. The dad before he was a bad father, he was a bad husband. And there's just dysfunction in that family. But it's interesting to see a Justin Bieber, a Britney Spears and like a Justin Timberlake to see how their career.

I've interviewed him too.

Of course you did. So tell me the difference between now, Justin, now.

Okay, Justin Timberlake, I have to say so Justin Timberlake was the most normal person I've ever interviewed. And that really was a very. Like a really normal. But also it was like a really weird moment. He came and he picked me up at my house and I was like, I'll just meet you at the restaurant. They were like, he's Gonna pick you up at your house. I was like, okay, that's pretty dope.

Are you in New York or la?

No, this was in la.

Okay.

And he came in some, like, car that's way too fancy for me even to know the name of it. Okay. And we went to a museum.

Well, what circa is this? What circa is this? Is he solo at this point?

This is when he was.

Was he married?

No, he wasn't married.

Okay.

And he. Basically, what had happened. Okay. It's called A free man in LA. And it's 2011.

Okay.

And he's 30 years old, and he had just done Friends With Benefits. And so he was in a breakup with Jessica Biel. And he was so depressed and so bummed out about this breakup and, like, basically couldn't, like, you know when you interview somebody and you're like, this is not a real person. When you're talking to Justin Timberlake, he was, like, a real person. Where he was. Personally, I don't answer your question because I'm so bummed about my breakup right now that, like, can we just, like, sit here and have some, like, we went to, like, a Hole in the Wall Thai place. Like, he was just, like, almost, like, crying. Crying. I was like, this is not great copy, but I really like you. You're so nice and, like, I feel for you. I mean, he.

Vanessa. So this was for Vanity Fair. And the. Oh, my God, the photo. The COVID photo on that. Oh, my gosh. Amazing. So the timestamp on this, he was dating Jessica Biel, but they broke up. Did it seem like she broke up with him?

I think it seemed like she broke up with him.

Okay.

Yeah.

And do you think I. This is a skeptic in me, right? You're the journalist, I'm the PR person. Do you think he was doing that on purpose to make you feel sympathy for him?

Maybe a little bit, but. Well, I think the thing is, like, Justin Timberlake knows he's a heartthrob, right? So he knows sort of being like, oh, I'm so sensitive and my girlfriend has dumped me is gonna play really well. But he also, like. I think it's really interesting. I was talking to a friend of mine about Angelina Jolie the other day, and he's interviewed her.

You know, I was just going to ask about Brad and Angelina.

So I've never interviewed her, but he's interviewed her, like, three or four times. And he said she always comes in with, like, a story. She's like, she's come. She's figured out A story that she knows you'll like. She knows what she's going to reveal, and she's going to give you this prepackaged idea, and it's going to be really well told, and you can, like, base your piece around it. And Justin Timberlake definitely was not doing that. Like, he was just sort of, like, maudlin and like. And I actually feel like, Justin Timberlake. What exactly is the beef about it? Like, he said the Nipplegate, and then, like, a couple of things he said about Britney Spears. Like, the guy has been around forever.

You mean the beef of people kind of churning.

Yeah, exactly. Like the idea that, like, people are turning on Justin Timberlake and he's a horrible person. It's like you could barely find anything. This guy's been around for, like, 25 years in the public eye. He'd have a lot more dirt if he was really a bad guy.

You know, if you think back to nipplegate when that happened, and I don't, you would know better than me. The year I don't remember the Super Bowl.

I think it's like late 90s or something.

Yeah, late 90s. To me, that was like one of the first times I remember, like, an example where people felt that Janet Jackson was victimized, that it was all a big setup and she ended up being the victim because she was the one. One who took all the hit from that, the public hit. But then it swung around and came back on Justin Timberlake. And I feel like that was the first time I saw that kind of swing happen. And it makes me think in my mind, where were we in the culture wise? I think we were kind of just in the Twitter world, you know, back then, right?

No, no, we weren't on it.

Well, we weren't even on social media.

No, no, no, no, no, it wasn't.

We had no social media.

Not social.

Yeah.

I mean, it was just like, whatever. He ripped her thing off. Off. Like, he was never gonna get out of that. Like, he did it, but she. Obviously, they planned it. You know what I mean?

Yes, exactly. That's right.

He did it, you know? Yeah.

It was television.

I'm not saying that's like the greatest thing that they did. Like, that was sort of stupid. But I'm just saying, like, from my perspective, he's a nice, normal guy. He doesn't deserve to have this weird flack thrown at him.

Yeah. Okay, so then if we have to. So then we could wrap here, which I don't even want to, but, I mean, just for the sake of time, I know, but now, like all those, those celebrities, singers, artists in that realm. So we're 90s, they're younger, they're all still relevant today, which is incredible, you know, at different levels in their career. What's the through line with them? What they all share, the commonality that maybe speaks to their relevance, but where do they veer off? Like, why is Justin, Justin and Britney Spears as Brittany? Is there anything beyond just the mental illness portion of it and the challenges? But is there something about the. Just looking at those three, The Justins and Britney, the two, you mean?

Yeah, yeah.

Or like Justin, Justin and Britney. Like, you've done so many interviews with child artists, stars.

Yeah.

That are so relevant today. Or not. Or even. You're talking about Paris Hilton. Is there something that they have that gives them that. That staying power that they can go from an age before social media even existed, they're teen mags, but now they're still here and they haven't gone off the rails. Like, what is it?

I mean, okay, on a public level, I think it's like, how much can they continue to tap into that nostalgia, right? Like, how much can they continue to have people interested in, like, your story since you, I was watching you since you were a kid and you've developed this way, and I find it really interesting, right? Like, like it's so little about the actual music. It's all about the personality and like, the ways you're twisting it and blah, blah, blah. But on a personal level, I mean, I think, you know that like, all of these people, there's four key people around them, right? Like the manager, the mom or the dad, the childhood best friend, and the record label guy or something like that. And it's a question of how strong those people are and like, if they start manipulating you, which was the case with Britney, right. Like, she got really manipulated when she was young and how much those people want your money. What were the deals like, that you made when you were young? You know, Taylor Swift, both of Taylor Swift's parents were well off, educated people who, you know, she might not have gotten the masters and blah, blah, blah, blah, but she was pretty well set up when she was young. So that entourage, I think, like, is a key factor in what will happen to you later. And Britney's entourage, and particularly like her parents, was a very difficult relationship. A difficult relationship with the sister, you know, but also, like, Britney just has some really bad genetics in her family.

Mm. Oh, that's so interesting. Can we just end on Taylor Swift then?

Yes.

Did you Ever interview Taylor Swift?

He did interview Taylor Swift. I mean, I'm thinking about doing something about Taylor Swift because it's like, I cannot believe that she just gets bigger and bigger and bigger with every passing day.

What is it? What is it? Vanessa? And you more than anyone can figure this out. What is it about Taylor Swift?

I really don't know. I don't know. I mean, her music is genuinely pretty good. Like people actually really like it. But what is it? I mean, the thing is like she always was just so good as tapping into the 19 year old part of each person. Like that's where she is. But I also think she is incredibly strategic. I'm not sure any of these relationships she's had are real relationships. I have no idea which one is real, which one is not real. I don't know what her gen. I don't want to know what her sexual identity is like. I don't think we know any of that. Her strategic brain and the way that she's been able to keep the music at a really high level and also the like image at a high level is sort of shocking it.

I'm with you the same way. But you know, what you've touched onto is that Entourage piece and her parents and her parents having. Because the father, he has experience like in the music industry.

He was like a banker. No, I think he was a banker.

Or he just has money. He just has money with money.

Yeah.

And knows people. And knows people. Maybe. That's what I read. So I think it's a mix of that theory though, because you've seen it firsthand, is, you know, the people who you surround yourself with are going to set you up for that type of success. Success. And Taylor Swift, you know, probably had that very sheltered, protected, but also strategic parenting, you know, an entourage. But I'm like you. I think her magic comes into knowing when and where to tap into what she needs to tap into that will create it around her and where her. I think her genius is. She's very predictive. Like she's the one who, who can figure out what's coming next or she knows she has so much power, she's just gonna create it. She knows how to create those types of moments. Cause she wields so much influence. It's incredible.

Yeah, she's just like the ultimate sort of pretty girl in the back of the class that nobody paid attention to, who then like was able to observe everything and then like her real self. I mean, I was in her childhood bedroom when she was 19, when she was already a huge star. She was on tour. I went to her house and I was in her childhood bedroom and it was like any 19 year old's bedroom.

Wait, you're telling me there's not like strings on the wall where she's already planning her life? You know, like a murder wall? Like she's already has her eggs, teaching Easter eggs?

No, it was like all her. I mean, I'm vaguely remembering the red scarf. She was writing all her little valentines to the people in her class.

Oh, wow.

She showed me all the letters she and her friends had written to each other and she was like keeping them in a box and you know, like, she just was like a prodigy who was also brought up like a normal girl. Right. Like, they tried what parents tried to give her. They moved to Nashville because they thought she was so talented, but they also wanted her to have a normal high school experience and try to like give her a normal life so she wasn't like flying all over the place and couldn't really go to school. So she was like, like a prodigy, you know, she was no different than like a prodigy who plays violin or something like that, where she had this voice. But they also tried to give her. Like. I really think her parents were just like solid.

They spotted it early, you know. Yeah.

And they had money and they weren't. I mean, Justin Bieber, remember, like he was living in a project his mother didn't have money for, like food, you know, like, that's where a lot of these kids who become stars come from. Like, they come from that sense of survival. Yeah.

To compare the two, like Justin Bieber, who, you know, with the parents and how he grew up and he's the YouTube kid, right? Like he sparks on YouTube, but Taylor Swift and her parents, you know, plot, plot, plot, plot, while supporting her in a very safe environment. Did you, when you were in her bedroom or you were interviewing Taylor Swift, did you see any of this? Like, did you know she was going to have lasting power? And did you know that she would have this type of lasting power, that she would be who she is right now?

I mean, I thought she was like, sick. Very, very talented. And I remember when I was at her house, I think it was her mom was talking about how could she preserve all her costumes. Like, should they try to put them in its storage or should they save them? And, you know, it was like not even for sure that they were going to do any of that. Right. Like, and they were thinking about if they should do it and. And I think that it was clear to me, like, yes, you should definitely do this. You should definitely make sure that you have like a storage that has everything she's ever worn, you know? Cause one day there'll be like a museum show of like Taylor Swift's concert outfits at like the Rock and Roll hall of Fame or something like that. But I mean, I didn't know that it was gonna be like 20, 23.

Eras tour type of Taylor Swift. You wanna. Here's my theory. Now you've helped me develop a theory here, Vanessa. I think, you know, because I get asked constantly about Taylor Swift on social media, about the dating. And I'm with you. I think every person she dates is an opportunity. And I think she may like them, you know, like, they may work for her like this Travis Kelce. I think they're having fun, whatever. But it's all pr. I think everything she does. But I bet, you know, and she gets all this credit. I'm actually writing an article right now for Forbes.com about, you know, just her strategic mind. But what's enlightening, I think it comes from the parents. I think her parents were strategic. Like, what you're sharing right now is they knew, they plotted to go. That's a big deal to go to Nashville. And they saw it. So they maybe imprinted this idea of how to be strategic in the long run. And that's why she is who she is today. Let's give it to the parents. Because we all know as parents, we have so much to do with kids, how they. They do it nowadays.

Exactly.

That's the theory I'm going with. Oh, my gosh, Vanessa, I will just have to say this will be episode one in our series of deconstructing celebrities.

Okay, you and I are going to go on the on tour. Like, who wants to hear us?

My thanks to Vanessa Grigoriadis for joining me on this episode. And thanks to you, listener, for sitting through a woefully unprepared topic. But who am I kidding? I could talk about stories, stories like that for hours. That's all for this week on the podcast. Be sure to chime in with your takes on this week's episode on my social media channels and of course, PR Confidential. Now back on Patreon. Just look up PR Confidential, my name, look for the photo of me with my phone, and let me know what you think. That's it for this week, everyone. Bye for now.