275: Allegedly Series: Behind the Headlines Ben Affleck & Jennifer Lopez

Ben Affleck may be in the doghouse. According to insiders close to the Argo actor and his wife jlo, the two have been sparring over the nine pets roaming their lavish LA property. Between the two of them, they have eight dogs and a cat. So it's a zoo at the house, and none of the dogs are properly trained. They're constantly barking and chasing the cat around the house. It's chaos, and it's driving JLo nuts, especially since she's left to deal with their messes. The insider alleged she's always nagging Ben to at least pick up their poop. His answer is they should hire people to do it for them. It really bugs JLo because he has more than enough time on his hands right now to to do it himself through interview. He's just being lazy.

Oh, whoa, whoa.

That was a loaded statement, you guys. I'm Gonna need Molly McPherson to interpret this article in terms of PR.

Testing 1, 2, 3. Testing, 1, 2, 3. So many questions about Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez. If you're my age, Gen X, you know them as Bennifer from their first go round in 2002. And if you're also like me, you may wonder, why did Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez get engaged in 2002? Do you remember that interview with Diane Sawyer? If you were watching when they were both sitting on the couch and Jennifer Lopez was talking about her engagement to Affleck, and she was just glowing. And Ben, he was already a meme before memes were memes. So she was calling the engagement traditional, but also in a very spectacular way, something that Ben would do that it was very, very beautiful. And she showed the pink diamond, the Harry Winston solitaire ring that Ben Wink Wink chose himself. Now, she had said in that interview, and I just admire him in every way more on that line now, if you're also like me, you may have wondered back then, why did Bennifer postpone the wedding? I think it was Ben that did that. And then in 2004, they up. I think that was Ben again. So why in 2021 did they rekindle their romance? They were married in July of 2022. Did you happen to miss that or catch that? Not a lot of people saw that. I think they wanted a lot of the buzz, but it was so difficult, you know, almost a decade later. Now, in this episode, are we going to dive in to all the details of Ben and Jen and what happened behind the scenes? Of course not, because who knows?

But.

But my guest this week on the episode is going to unpack the relationship dynamics between Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez and Jennifer Garner to perhaps put together some type of narrative that explains the PR maneuvers that we see from Ben and Jen and Jen Garner, by the way. Now, Jennifer Lopez, she revealed that she has a new album coming out. It's called this Is Me now, which is very similar to the Beatles now and Then. And it also has a companion film. This is coming out on February 16th. I do not know why they're doing this two days after Valentine's Day. Is it like end of. Maybe it's end of week. Maybe it's better to release things at the end of the week. I know films are usually Fridays, but.

Wouldn'T they want to do it on Valentine's Day?

Or is that too cheesy? At any rate, JLo wants to document her romance with Ben Affleck. Now, she came out in the press and said that she had, or at least her team had reservations about this project, but it marks the 20th anniversary of her this Is Me Then album. So why not do a reflective look on the relationship and Lopez's personal journey? That's what J. Lo is doing in the album and film. But what I'm going to do in this episode is work going to look a little bit deeper. Because what JLo is all about from a public image point of view right now is this.

When I was a little girl, when someone asked me what I wanted to be when I grew up, my answer was always. In love. This is me now. This is me now.

And that might be PR SPEN, because that's what JLo wants you to hear. But the J. Lo quote about Ben that I just mentioned earlier, and I just admire him in every way, has something to do with the real story behind the couple. Take a listen.

You really thought he was just one.

Of those Hollywood playboy types?

Yeah.

Skirt chasers. Yeah. He'll be mad I said that. No, but I've told him, too. He knows. We've talked about this so many times.

I want to welcome you to a new series from the Indestructible PR podcast. It's allegedly the podcast series that goes behind the headlines. I'm diving into the intricate world of celebrities and public figures, unraveling the layers of their media mood and PR maneuvering. I'm your host, Molly McPherson, a crisis communication strategist, and I am here to guide you through the maze of headlines, rumors, and public statements. So in each episode of this series, I'm going to dissect These high profile cases, I want to examine how these individuals in the spotlight and their PR teams handle that very hot bright light. So I'm not just looking at the surface. I want to dig a little bit deeper to the strategies, the spin and the narratives that they craft to shape their public perception. Okay, so we're going to look at a sudden crisis or even long term image building. So I want to look into the art and the science of PR in the celebrity, political, just the public figure sphere. So whether you're a PR professional, a media enthusiast, or just curious about the behind the scenes of celebrity culture, popular cult, allegedly series aims to uncover truth and tactics that lie beneath the surface. Now, this week My guest is Dr. Abby Medcalf. She's a relationship maven, also psychologist, a PhD. She is going to be my guest to discuss the high profile relationship of Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez.

So our discussion is going to go.

Beyond the typical tabloid TikTok talk. In fact, Dr. Abby, like she's the real deal. So bringing in Abby with her expertise of relationship dynamics, I think this is really going to be an amazing series. So let's get into the dynamics of this couple and understand the things that interest me. The media maneuvers to burnish, restore, you know, their public image. JLO wants to sell albums, Ben wants to sell movies. They both want clicks, they both want buzz. So let's find out how they are doing it based on this relationship. So let's dig deeper.

So, Dr. Abby Metcalf, welcome to the episode and to the podcast. I'm so excited to speak with you.

I'm so excited to be here. And I have to tell you, when you understand the psychology, I believe you can do better PR because you can predict better what's going to come down the pike and how people are going to react to things. So I think these two are such a marriage made in heaven, I can't say enough.

Well, the conversation is a marriage made in heaven. But we are going to dive into whether or not the topic of the podcast, this episode, if this couple, if their marriage is made in heaven. Okay, so in the Venn diagram of our work, I mean, one, I mean, you and I are just palsies and we connected together originally, you know, from being authors and we followed each other and of course, you have helped me in my relationship. So, so happy to give you an update on my life. But I am bringing you here because we are looking at, you know, in our Venn diagram, you know, I talk public relations, crisis management, proactive, you know, reactive and you are, as you say, a relationship maven. But you know, the work that I do, you know, you, you understand what I do. And so I'm so excited to bring you here now. Also, you are touching in a little bit on the secret sauce of what I do in my work because so much of what I do, I'm not a trained psychologist, but so much of it is human behavior. So I thought this is a perfect episode. We're going to look at the lessons in pr, publicity and personal growth. So, I mean, this is just a no brainer of such an interesting podcast. Ben Affleck, Jennifer Lopez. The reason why I wanted to start with them is because I suspect something is on the horizon with these two. I mean, we have something that is, I feel like it's an emerging publicity, pr, you know, reputational fissure, if you will. I think they're headed to something not good. So I thought let's just start on these two right now. And also we see a lot of play in tabloids and stories and a lot of different machinations happening between the two of them. So you're going to come in now and we're just going to break it down with, you know, break down the two of them and their relationship. So, you know, I'm probably more steeped in the whole popular culture world, but I love that you did a deep dive. So, Abby, give me your take first on Ben Affleck.

So we know that Ben, again, this is why it's so important to have history of people, right? So Ben and his family, his brother, they've been very open that they come from a family rife with drug and alcohol abuse, or at least alcohol, that there's a lot of dysfunction. They've been very open about that. And Ben, interestingly enough, kind of in more recent interviews, I think has been talking more about being, you know, he's in and out of sobriety over and over. He continues to smoke no matter what. And a lot of us in sobriety kind of know that that's not always a good sign from what I, you know, can tell of him from the outside.

Can I pause you right there for a moment? So why isn't that a good sign?

So getting clean and sober. Right. And I'm in sobriety, so I'm, I've been, I'm a recovering drug addict. I just want to say that. And I have a huge specialty in drug and alcohol work and I have for all these years. So I almost forgot to say that. Yeah.

And the level of, you know, experience that you're giving for the people. I mean, you are working in, you know, higher level. You were at the high. Well, I called you, like the billions level, you know, from that television show for years.

That's what I did. Yeah. I worked with exactly what you said. Drug and alcohol problems in international M and A. Mergers, acquisitions. And I still do corporate work quite a bit that way with CEOs who need. Who have drug and alcohol problems. So it really is something I know well.

And the entertainment.

Yes. So I have a bunch of clients in my private practice, because I have a private practice who are famous entertainers, musicians. I have. I have had supermodels. I've had, you know, people in professional sports. So. And I have and have had. So I really. A lot of my private practice is with people who are famous. I do not talk about them, of.

Course, because, of course, just like we can't.

We don't talk about this stuff. So I do have a lot of experience in all these places. And I can tell you that when I look at Ben and his sobriety and we'll just say it like that, I. I can't. For me, it doesn't look like he's working what we call program it. He talks about it and that addicts come talk to him. But what I. Whenever I see anything of him, he seems miserable. And I will tell you that when you're in recovery and you're really getting it, you can be what we call dry, or what we call sober. And dry means that all you've done is take out the alcohol or the drugs, but you haven't changed your lifestyle. You haven't changed the way you think about things. You haven't changed the way you approach things. And I will tell you very interestingly enough, when he did an interview, I think it was with Howard Stern, and someone can call me on this in the comments, but. And he blamed pretty much Jennifer Garner for why he was drinking. He then tried to walk that back later on. I think it was a Kimmel episode I saw where he tried to say, no, I never said that. But what he said, and I wrote it down in an interview, he blamed his marriage for drinking more. He said he drank normally for a long time, and then it got worse in his marriage. So basically, he was blaming her. So it was on Howard Stern. He said this. I'll probably still be drinking if I hadn't gotten divorced. And I will tell you this. When you're blaming anyone else for. And that's what he was doing, even though he Said he wasn't later, which was such bs. When you even use that language, even for a minute, that's not sober. That's dry. When you're blaming other people, when you're acting like a victim, when you're saying it's the paparazzi, it's my ex wife, It's. I always felt trapped. He talks about it. I felt trapped in my marriage with the kids. That's not why you drank. And that's not why. And he did drugs too, apparently, so that's not why you do those things. That's such b. Can I say bullshit? I don't know.

Well, yes, of course. When it talks to blaming our spouses.

It'S because he doesn't. That's not really sober. Sober is that you really start to think differently. You stop acting like a victim. You take full 100% responsibility for your actions, for how you are in the world and all that. And you don't have to be on an interview later, walking back your comments, because those first comments you said were obviously the real ones. So when I see that, unlike a pr. So PR Person seeing that, like, oh, my God, we had this thing. You said this thing. People got upset. You need to walk that back. I say you. What I'm seeing is someone who's not truly sober. And when he. I went and watched that interview where he walked it back, he was annoyed. He was pissed at everybody. Like, no, I didn't sin. He was defensive, he was angry. None of these things are sober behavior. None of them. The way he reacts to things, the way he always seems on the defense, he. Or often seems on the defense, seems angry, seems pissed, seems annoyed, frustrated. The way he cannot school his face ever when he's, you know, the Grammys or whatever it was when she, like, you know, hit his chest and he was clearly, he can't hide it for a second. Slamming the car door. This is not sober behavior. When you're sober, you learn how to manage your emotions. So I'm not saying he doesn't go to meetings or. I don't know about his personal life. What I know is that if he were my client and he's not, I would be telling him, like, you're not acting sober. What are you doing? Like, this is not how you act in the world if you're truly so because of that and his multiple relapses, which he's been talking about, and the denial that he used to drink normally when you come from an alcoholic home, he never did. So you don't really drink normally. You just. It's not. Hasn't progressed to a really bad place yet.

Okay, so I'm going to stop you right there for a moment because there's so many things that you talked about, you know, going back to that Howard Stern interview. I did a TikTok post about that interview because I watched it, and knowing Ben Affleck, well, I mean, you know, I'll admit, like, I am a. Oh, I shouldn't even be shy about it or reluctant about it. But I've been Affleck fan. I like Ben Affleck, and part of it is, you know, the homeboy thing. You know, I live in the area. I know people. Degree of separation. No. You know, I love his work, whether it's an actor. You know, I love the town, you know, Goodwill, you know, hunting, you know, like, all of it. I think I have a soft spot for Ben Affleck. However, you're absolutely right. Like, I am not, like you, a relationship maven, nor do I have experience with any type of, you know, addiction, you know, for myself, but I just know it by degree of association and, you know, friends and people close to me, whatnot, but that he looks like he's struggling. So a couple points I wanted to bring up. So, one, when he did that Howard Stern interview, he 100% blamed Jennifer Garner, and he said he felt trapped. And what I noticed in that interview. And you said that you watched it, one, it was dangerous. No one was sitting with him. No one was there for guardrails to go, you know, and tell him what to say.

He told the truth.

He told the truth. He was in his own office, like, probably locked into his own office. There were no, like I said, guardrail is a place. There's no time that he kept going on and on and like. And Howard Stern did not cut him off because one, maybe he could. He couldn't. But also, he. Howard Stern knew he was going to get something out of there. He knew it.

Dig his own hole.

Yes, yes. And he didn't look like he. I don't. I didn't get this. I got the sense that. I mean, he was absolutely 100% in that interview. I didn't sense that he. Like he had any type of. Anything in his system, but he seemed tired. He seemed kind of just like. Just a frustration.

Drained and annoyed.

Drained is the word.

Yeah.

Okay, so. And then the other piece of it is when you had mentioned the walk back, where he said the press, as they always say this, you know, took it out of context and how dare they? And that was my post about. No, you sat down for that interview and you let it go on and on and on. So, Abby, let me ask you this. I felt that that Howard Stern interview, and I'll have a link in the show notes to it, I felt like he looked at it almost like a therapy session. What do you think?

You know, I think it's an example of poor boundaries. And that's what we see with people who. Well, a lot of people have poor boundaries, but especially it's the hallmark of addiction is that there's these very poor boundaries. They either get too enmeshed, too close, too thin, where you're over sharing and going and talking to the wrong people about the wrong things. Do you know what I mean?

Okay. Yeah.

Or they get too thick. And that's what he does. So he gets too thin. He gets on one end of the continuum where he shares too much, where he talks to the wrong people, and then what does he do? He goes all the way to the other end and he slams the door and he's angry at everybody, and people took it out of context and how dare you? That's the poor boundaries. He's terrible at them. And I want to be clear. I don't hate Ben Affleck in any way. I actually have so much compassion. I'm watching him like I did, like with Britney, which I'm watching with Britney Spears right now. We'll do an episode on her. I'm watching this mental health trauma play out in a public space, and my heart aches for these people. I think there's a lot of enabling and what I call trauma bonding, which we'll talk about going on.

Okay. Yes. So. And before we move on, so. And of course. And I said a disclaimer before the beginning of this episode. I mean, we are not saying, you know, that what. That what we are saying about Ben Affleck is fact. We're just basing this, you know, as your opinion just from your years and years of experience.

Many years now.

Now we touched on it earlier, and I want to go back to it because it has a part of the publicity angle of it. He's being photographed a lot smoking, you know, or, you know, or, you know, or carrying the accoutrements of smoking with him. I find it interesting that. That. That those images are being published out there now. And we also see him with Duncan's in his hand, too. You know, he always has caffeine, so we have caffeine in there as well. So talk to me about that. We started there. But if someone is struggling, in his case, if he's struggling with his sobriety, you know, with alcoholism, how would it present itself in other addictions?

When we see these things, when you see all the negative or the car door slams, they're really setting up this thing for her to look like, oh, Jennifer, how have you been putting up with this? You're. It's the martyr codependency thing. Oh, you're so amazing to be putting up with these things. This is what codependents get from the. From these kind of relationships. They get to be the star, they get to be the savior. They get to be the one who's long suffering and amazing and fabulous and great. I think this is a setup for him one more time to be the bad guy, which he's very good at playing. And for Jennifer later, when the divorce happens to be the, you know. Oh, how did she ever put up with it? No wonder she, like, she had to get divorced.

Yes. Okay. So, Abby, when I mentioned that of the photos and the imagery that we see out there of Ben, and I did a post a couple weeks ago about Ben and Jen because there was a story in OK Magazine about them having arguments in their house about pets and there was a lot of euphemism.

And the poop and the bullshit.

Yes, and the poop and all that. I felt it was like that was an article that was representative of their relationship, that I felt it painted Ben as a mess and this was going to be the narrative that we were going to see. Now, why I wanted to have this conversation with you is I feel as if this is Jennifer Lopez's side who is already creating that narrative there because she's already working with something and we know that she's painting him as the mess. Now, as you said, we're learning that it looks like from the outside, from your years of experience, that Ben is, I mean, quote unquote, and I guess my. My language will call it, he's messy right now because he is struggling.

I think he's struggling just overall, whether or not he's drinking or not. Again, it could be the.

Oh, yeah, the drive. Yes.

Just to be clear, just not drinking or drugging doesn't make you sober.

Okay. Because sober, would you agree? Like, it's more of a mindset as opposed to a physical act. Yeah. Okay. Now there are reports, there are blind gossip or blind, blind item reports where people are saying that, you know, and JLO and Ben, they were both in Vegas recently and there were and gambling is another issue, you know, for Ben Affleck certainly been banned from casinos, but that he. There have been reports that he is. That he has been drinking. There was one interview that I saw where it looked, you know, it looked like he was a little loose in the lips there and Jennifer was kind of pulling him. So, of course, we are not saying any of this is fact.

I don't know.

Yeah, but it's certainly out there. Okay, now let's move to JLo. Now, you. We, we talked about what we think might be happening there from the publicity, like strategically, she might even be planting things there. Talk to me about JLo.

You know, our fat. And again, love JLo, too. Love Ben, love JLo. But let's be honest, JLo to me, is a modern day Elizabeth Taylor. It is exactly the same. These are women who, again, trauma bond, which we'll talk about in a minute, who get into relationships that are very unhealthy over and over. You know, Elizabeth Taylor was married seven times and engaged like 10 and J. And married to the same guy twice. I do think I'm gonna predict now that JLO and Ben might get remarried again years later. Just want to throw out there. Oh, so she's a control freak, right? A control enthusiast, as we like to say. She's a perfectionist. And she grew up in also a dysfunctional home. And I will tell you that all of us are attracted to people who grew up with the same kind of crazy that we grew up with, even though it often looks very different. And on the outside, you would say, oh, jlo's parents were married her whole. But they had apparently not a happy one, I would say, because the parents got divorced right after the kids were, quote, unquote grown, which a lot of people do. So you're not in a happy, happy marriage those years. Her, you know, parents were immigrants. And from the PR we taught. She talks very openly in that halftime Netflix show about her mother beating her. She says it. She said we were. And I took the, quote once that they were in a tumultuous relationship. Quote, she thrashed the living daylights out of you. That's what she said. So she had lube is all. You ever hear about this mother? I don't know where the dad. What happened to the dad?

We never hear about the dad. Yeah, we never hear about.

Yeah, you know, it doesn't take Freud to figure out someone's looking for daddy's love, you know, Come on, like, you know, and that grew up in this tumultuous Household. She and her mother apparently had a huge fight when she was 18 and she left and that was it. She was out of the house. This is not, I would say, probably also growing up in the immigrant family, you know, probably a very healthy overall thing. I'm not saying it was horrible. I'm not saying it was the worst family ever, but I am saying there was trauma there. Without a doubt there was. You don't leave the house at 18 in a big fight, and then you guys are perfect. I think she and her mother have worked at their relationship over the years. When you see that, you know this kind of background and then you. And then she becomes someone who's again, so controlling and perfectionistic. And again, this relationship she gets into. Ben Affleck, I agree. I think he's probably a great guy, very charismatic. You hear, you hear these things about him. Obviously, so smart and, you know, so such a tragic hero. Right? In so many ways.

Right.

The craziness that surrounds him. When you look at Jennifer Garner or Jennifer Lopez, there's something in their own backgrounds that makes them attracted to this guy. And trauma bonding is. And people get this wrong a lot, but it's basically, it's a dysfunctional attachment and it gets hardwired in our systems. And so what happens is when you're a kid because of a particular childhood, you know, some kind of childhood, your brain makes neural associations between love and unhealthy behavior for whatever reason.

What does that mean?

Your brain thinks love means, you know, that I expect the best from you and yell at you all the time. Or you're. You think because your parent was absent all the time, that love means that someone should be there every second or, you know, it just makes an unhealthy connection. It thinks that there's something that you see that is a. It's a reaction from your childhood. And this gets hardwired. It literally gets hardwired in your brain. And so you end up being with people that aren't really a good fit, but you feel unable to let them go. And it does not mean you're bonding with another person over a particular trauma. There's not a shared trauma. That's not what trauma bonding is, is trauma bonding is two people, survivors that come from two different traumatic type backgrounds. And trauma is different for everybody. And I know that word gets thrown a lot around now. There really are these reactions people have to their childhoods and that then they come together. It's almost like they dovetail. For me, I really got this when I started hearing JLo and Jennifer Garner describe Ben, and they use trauma bonding language, which is what things. Like, there's just something about them. Oh, it was just right away. We felt all this connection right from the start. I love their confidence. They're so charismatic. I just, I. I just feel good around them. When I ask you, why are you with this person? And you tell me, oh, they're charismatic. I just feel good.

It's just special.

There's just something that's trauma language. If I ask why you're with your partner, you should say, because they always have my back. We're a team and everything. Because even when we disagree, we have great communication. Because they, they care about my day and care about the answers I give them because they prioritize me in our relationship. These language gets very vague. And I heard Jennifer Garner describe him in some of the ways I just said that are trauma bonding. And I've heard JLO do it.

You are spot on on what both of them talk about when they talk about Ben Affleck. You never hear about Ben, like, you know, like, you know, Ben on the block, like, oh, you know what? He's super funny. He's hard working. You know, he's, you know, he goes to church.

He's such a good listener. I always feel like, why do I love Ben? He's such a good listener. Whenever I have a problem, I can go to him and I know he'll support me.

Yeah, you never hear that.

That's how I talk about my man. That when I. When people ask me why I love Gary, these are the things I say. I feel so safe with him. No matter what I come to him with, his first response is, I've got you. We'll get through this.

But Jennifer Garner, what's interesting, nothing in her past tells me that there's trauma there. You hear about her parents, you hear about growing up in West Virginia. She was in the band. She's so proclaimed nerd. You know, you, everybody, you look at her now, you can absolutely picture what she was like growing up in West Virginia. When I worked in Washington, D.C. i knew someone who grew up with her who said wonderful things about her. Yeah, I bet. Now everything we see now, but there's one piece to Jen Garner, and I'll say it, and then I want to hear from you is I also think, and now I love Jen Garner. I love everything.

Oh, my God. How do you know?

But yeah, in her career, all of it, all the things she's doing, Wonderful mother, all of it. But there I do Think she is also participating in the publicity game because there are people who are constantly in the tabloids and Jennifer Garner who is coming out and always making a stand. You know, I don't want you photographing my kids. I don't want you.

Da da da, da.

Yet if we were to have a list of Hollywood kids that we had to match, if there was a game, I bet the majority of people would be able to connect who the Affleck Garner kids are. Everybody knows them because they're in publicity. So tell me, what is it? In any of your research, what did you take from Jen Garner?

Well, whenever anything seems that perfect, it can't be. And that's what I took because that's how my house looks.

Okay.

When, when I share it. When you go to a 12 step meeting, what you do often, you know, you're asked to share your story. And how I always start my story is I was a perfect girl who grew up in a perfect family, in a perfect home. There is a way whenever I see someone that seems so perfect on the outside, you know, I'm in ads with my dad on my Capital One card and all the things, you know, I'm like, here's how I know how I'm positive that's true. Because you don't cheat, I think, or something with, you know, how she was married and then divorced and then got with him. I don't even know.

Yes.

What was there?

Well, something so. Something that I thought perhaps with Jen Garner was this. So she was married to Scott Foley.

Foley, right.

Scott Foley, yeah. So he, you know, television. Scott Foley. They worked together. Yes. And then they divorced and was very close to Ben. But I felt like when Jen Garner and Ben Affleck first met, when they both were in the movie Pearl harbor, though they did, she was more of a co star. He, you know, he starred in it. But I do remember when they got together, she was definitely pregnant before they got married. They were married on an island by Victor Garber, who started an alias with her. We love Victor Garber. But I almost felt like Jen may have hooked up with Ben at a time when he was so practicing a sober life, living a sober life, that Ben was a totally different person. She got pregnant and that maybe Ben said, you know what, this time I'm going to do it, I'm going to stick to it. But I never saw Jen Garner as a Ben Affleck kind of a galaxy. But you're telling me. I love what you're saying. Nothing is ever perfect. You feel there's trauma.

But let me also talk about that. Here's a misconception people have that when someone is not using that they're a whole different person and whatever. And remember what I just said about dry.

Yes.

There's a way. I can't tell you how many women especially I've worked with who got married to someone who wasn't drinking and then became alcoholic while they were together. Divorced, that person got with the next person, also wasn't drinking and then became alcoholic when they were together. This story is so common, it's not funny. And I will tell you, it's not a coincidence. It's because there is something. There's some pheromone, there's some little something that goes out that you pick up on. There was no, no way that he was really sober whether he wasn't drinking or not in the moment.

He could have been dry, though. It could have been a time in his life when he was just dry.

I'm just telling you, he's had so many relapses that I wouldn't even. He calls them slips here and there bullshit. Like, even the way he talks about them is so much denial. The way he said he was drinking normally is so much denial. So she knew what she was getting into. She was. And she still says it again because she talks from trauma bonding.

Okay. He's currently charismatic.

He was this. It was special. She uses the language of trauma bonding. And this is the thing that's very misunderstood about addiction, that it's a using or not using thing. And it's not. There's a personality type. He's always been addictive. He says that he's. He says that I've always had an addictive personality or an extreme personality.

Yeah.

So why was Jen into that? Ms. Wholesome Perfect Jen? Why would you want someone so extreme or so addictive again, another person who seemed to be like Jennifer Lopez, healthy in her. You know, how much she drank and how much she part. She wasn't a partier. She wasn't going out to clubs. Like, he was like, why are these women attracted to him? There's nothing in common. There's no backgrounds in common. They're. They're like, what? What?

Well, Hollywood, I mean, being Hollywood actors.

That can be part of the trauma bonding too. That you're coming from this culture that's very abusive and a lot of ways. And so maybe that's where the trauma is. But, you know, becoming a. A very successful actor or actress is hard. And so how hard, how much did Jennifer Garner. Want it how? What did she do to get it? You know, like, I don't know. And I'm not saying she's a bad. Again, who doesn't? I love her. I love. Every time I see her dimples, I'm like a happy gal, but I don't buy it. And she stuck with him all through it over and over and over.

What does that tell you about the person who sticks through like that?

Codependency. It's a trauma response. So you know how we talk about fight, flight, or freeze? You know, we talk about that. Right? Response to any kind of threat? Well, there's a fourth one that was coined by a man named Peter Walker called fawning. And fawning is a trauma response that's like people pleasing on crack. It's a response we have when we're under threat. You know, we either run away. Right. We either fight.

Yeah.

We'll freeze and hope the danger passes. Or we will. People, please. We will go towards the person. We will try to help them. We will do anything to make it better. And that's another trauma response that, again, people miss a lot. Again. When you're a psychologist and you study these things for 40 years and you know people and you've met with thousands of people, you see patterns and you see what it is below, what people are showing you. Right. Because the proof is always in how your life looks. Always, Always, always. You know what I mean? Always. How does your life look? Are you in, you know, a happy relationship?

Are you.

Did you end up with a drug addict? Did you? That is all about your mental health, not the. Not just the other person.

Oh, interesting. So you have to look at it. But what do you take from someone who's successful? I mean, look at Jennifer Lopez, incredibly successful. Ben Affleck, incredibly successful. Jen Garner, incredibly successful.

Great.

So you can do well in work, but it's very difficult to do well in all of it.

Yes.

If there's some type of. Okay, challenge in there that they're dealing.

With, I think a lot of times you do do great with work because it's a place where you get positive feedback. It's a place you feel completely in control of you and what you're doing. Right. You love it. Okay.

Yeah.

And all of these things are about control. Using is about being an addict is about control, and being a codependent is about control. And so all these people for sure, are control kind of folks, without a doubt. Like, all. Okay.

They want to be in control.

You do.

Okay. I do I still do now. Jennifer Lopez. I mean. I mean, prior to being with Ben Affleck, I mean, she's had, you know, a list of people. So if I name, you know, her past, because she's been with a lot. You know, she's been with a lot of guys. She's been married, you know, a lot of guys. Okay, so we have Ben Affleck, twice, you know, engaged.

Married, by the way, very much like Elizabeth Taylor, who got married to two of her husbands twice. But I'm just saying, okay, in 1997.

Ohani Noah was a waiter. There's Chris Judd, who is a dancer. There's Marc Anthony, backup dancer, Marc Anthony, you know, a singer. She was also with P. Diddy, Sean Combs, Holmes, you know, when he was arrested.

We know now is a real control freak, right? Athletes are control freaks. You know, Alex Rodriguez was the one. I thought, oh, there seems to be something there. They have a lifestyle that's very similar. They seem to have a value system that's very similar. They have culturally, you know, some stuff going on. Like, to me, of all the men I've seen her with, I thought, oh, this one seems. But as soon as she called off that first engagement, you know, I was like, oh, they're gonna be done. They're never getting. Or if they get married, they're gonna be divorced the next week. I said it all the time, because of course that's what's gonna happen.

Not that you know this, but what. Why would those two. Did he cheat or something? Like, in that type, you don't know. But in that type of relationship, what.

Can also happen is that with trauma bonding, you get addicted to the drama. So it almost feels like you're not in love because there's not enough drama. There's not enough going on. And this is how you feel the most comfortable. So when there's little drama, you make drama, you create things. And so that's my guess is that it might have been that it got kind of boring for her because it always feels like, you know, she's the one who ended that, not him, you know? Right. Like, I know it wasn't him. And I saw some interview with the first husband, Ohani, whatever his name, he said, like, Lupe runs that show.

What does that tell you?

That Lupe has so much, you know, that she's the one you have to please. That's what he said. She's the one you have to please. Like, he didn't mention the dad because he was talking about, like, her and these relationships with Ben and will it work or something? And he said, well, if he's got Lupe on his side, he'll be okay. And, you know, you go, wow, that woman is powerful in there, you know, like Lupe and, you know, there she was again, and not the dad, you know, again, like, disappearing. But there's just, you know, there's a way when you marry someone like that, so you can be in control. You could be the one, you know, who makes decisions, who decides things. And. And I don't know if this whole motorbike thing is true with her selling Ben Affleck's motorbikes. Was that true? I don't know if that story is.

True, but who even knows? I think it's part of the narrative.

Yeah, right. But, you know, there's another example of, like, this controlling thing, you know, like, I want to try to control. And she definitely, it seems, tries to control him in public some, you know, when he's doing something.

Yes, she definitely does.

And so, oh, my gosh, there's a lot of control stuff going on. And, you know, what happens when someone's using is you can control the narrative. You can control. Even though they're kind of out of control and they're. And they're controlling their drinking, you're the one who can control the rest because you're seen as the okay one. You're seen as the rock, you know, and often you are the rock. Often you're the, you know, parent to the children or you're making sure everybody. Everything gets done that's supposed to get done. You know, like, you're that person, and so you get to be in control.

Oh, my gosh.

Abby.

Okay, so as. Oh, gosh, we've learned so much. So I find if I were to bring it into my world, into my sphere, the piece about Jen, Jennifer Lopez and control, she wants to be in control. The press that we see now out about the two of them seems to be a narrative that supports not only the role that she wants to perpetuate the perception she wants people to have that she's in control. Ben is a mess, but it also speaks to psychologically what's going on with someone who's a trauma bonder. They need to actually be in control. So a lot of these publicity moves that we're seen would fit someone like a Jennifer Lopez.

Oh, and.

And Jennifer Garner, who also has control of a lot of the publicity. Yes, you would say the same thing. Right. Like, she's the one who's in control. She's the one who brought Ben to rehab.

Yep, twice, I think. And, and I do want to say this really clearly is that these things are unconscious. If you were to ask either Jennifer or Ben, they, this is unconscious motivation. This is unconscious. I do want to be clear about that.

Like, that's important.

But it is because this isn't about, like beating up on these three people. This is about, I hope they all have good therapists and people who are telling them the truth so that they can get better at this, that they can look at their issues around this stuff and not keep perpetuating what's been happening. Happening.

Yes, absolutely. Which is the reason why I wanted to do this series. Because part of my job, like I said, is I look like, I look at the human element element in every single public relations crisis or situation that I'm dealing with. Even media training, you know, going in and training executive. I want to look, is this person excited to do this? Are they nervous? Are they ashamed that they have to do it? You have to understand the human element. But I also know just the value in therapy and the value of speaking to someone like you, how important it is. Okay, so just to wrap up then, what is your prediction and any type of timeline that you might put on it for these two? And not that, you know, like, we can't say we don't know everything, but in all of your experience, you've had so many couples sitting on your, you've had a million. Ben and Jen's sitting on your couch. Ben and Jen and Ben and Jen, yeah. So what do you think in store in the future here?

You know, I don't think I, I, I mean, I very much think they're going to end up getting divorced unless they just stay in this sick thing over and over, you know, the falling in love and the falling out and the whatever which is possible, but I don't think so. I think that he had kids with Jennifer Garner. So then the 10 years or however long they were together.

Right.

It's very different. She stayed with Mark Anthony the longest, the person she had kids with. Right. That's what we do. We stay longer with those people we have children with. And again, it's timing, you know, it's a timing thing. So, and don't get me started on her having twins naturally at her age. But anyway. Oh yeah, that makes me a little crazy. But, but I do think it's, it's not long. I, I, I think they made an impulsive decision around the marriage. I think all of this has been impulsive I think the whole relationship has been. And I think when they were together in the past, it was like a two year arc.

I think it was.

And I think this is going to be something very similar. It would be my guess.

Yes. Okay. That's so interesting. And so Abby, I mean, of course. I mean, I'm watching it right now. And again, you and I, I said a disclaimer before the episode. I mean, we don't know what's happening between them at all. And we don't. And you're, we're not trying to diagnose anyone or anyone listening here thinking, oh, I have to go home and get a divorce because I'm married to, you know, my version of the Ben Affleck. No, but just, but talking about the importance of therapy and talking about speaking with someone like you could be incredibly helpful.

And maybe they'll do it and maybe they'll get great therapy and stay together forever and have a hu. Shift. And I would love nothing more. Like, I, I'm not cheering for them to get divorced. I, I like all the players.

I do.

I know. I hope everyone's happy.

Of course.

I wish that and the way they're going and what's happening and the denial factor is very worrisome. That's what I'll say.

Yes. Okay. All right. Thank you so much for speaking with me and tell people how they can find you.

Really. The best place is abimedcalf.com, which I know you'll link to in the show notes and all that, but it's just my name.com and that's my podcast is everywhere. Relationships made easy. But you can buy the books on Amazon or on my podcast and follow me and all the things all live there.

Fantastic. Abby, I can't wait to speak with you again. So thank you so much.

Thank you.

My thanks to Dr. Abby for joining us on this first episode of Allegedly. We went behind the headlines spotlighting Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez. So what did you think of Dr. Abby's take? Let me know on social media. You can find me on TikTok, Instagram and Twitter. Yes, I'm still going to Twitter, but also you can head over to my Patreon PR Confidential. This is an exclusive online space for my membership. You can ask your questions, get my answers. I do monthly live video chats that are an absolute blast. So I have three different tiers. I do chats for each different tier, but the first one are kind of like our pop culture chat. These are fun. We talk about all the PR moves and the media maneuvers. So if you want to talk about Jeff Jlo and Ben Affleck, we're going to get into it over on PR Confidential. Also, you can find out more information, you know, on my link tree in my bio. You can also read my contributions to Forbes.com so you will hear more insight into celebrities and public figures in this allegedly series. Dr. Abby is definitely going to be back for another episode and I have have another guest, Vanessa Gregoriadis. She was a previous guest as well where we talked about a slew of celebrities. She's going to be back to discuss our next celebrity and I know you are going to love this. So in this series we are going to talk to the experts. So some of them are going to be your faves from social media and also people that really kind of know the scoop. I love this series so I hope you love it too. Let me know who do you want me to talk about on the Allegedly series. That's all for this week. Thanks for listening. Bye for now.