276: Before the Fame: Journalist Vanessa Grigoriadis on Taylor Swift's Early Years

I had so many people who are dying to know if there's any PR between the Taylor and Travis relationship. Public relations. Mutual, beneficial relationship between an organization and its publics, AKA stakeholders, AKA audiences. Think music fans, Swifties, football fans, the NFL ratings, the Chiefs.

You get the idea.

So is the relationship real or not? It doesn't matter. It's mutually beneficial. In fact, the only losers on Sunday Dubbears. I know, I know you're tired of hearing about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce. I get it. I'm aware of this. But I promise you, this episode. Oh, this episode is different. Welcome to the Indestructible PR Podcast where I dive deep into the intricate world of celebrities and public figures, unraveling the layers of their media moves and PR maneuvering to find some lessons. I'm your host, Molly McPherson, a crisis communication strategist and guiding you through the maze of headlines, rumors and public statements. This week, I'm joined by Vanessa Grigoriadis. She is a renowned journalist, an award winning journalist. Her work has been featured in the New York Times, New York Times Magazine, and Vanity Fair, among other publications. Vanessa had the unique opportunity to interview Taylor Swift at the beginning of her meteoric rise to famous fame. She wrote a piece for Rolling Stone titled the Very Pink, Very Perfect Life of Taylor Swift. That article came out in 2009. But this discussion is going to center around not only that article and the time that she spent with Taylor Swift, but also we're going to fast forward now and I'm going to ask Vanessa some questions about Taylor Swift, like, did you see what she was going to become? And we're also going to talk about some of the intricacies of her personal life, including Taylor's relationships and the public speculation surrounding her sexuality. A significant part of our conversation focuses on Taylor's PR strategies as well, particularly as it relates to her current relationship with Travis and Kelsey. So take a listen as we unravel the multifaceted life and career of Taylor Swift, understanding her influence and the impact of her decisions both on stage and off. Vanessa, we are going to have a very quick conversation about Taylor Swift. Well, the conversation won't be quick, but we want to stuff a lot into this conversation. So thank you for joining me on this episode.

Speak fast. Yeah, okay.

Speak fast because everybody is talking about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce. But what were your first impressions of Taylor Swift when you met her?

I mean, I remember meeting her in LA and she was sort of delightful. I went to Faith Hill. Faith Hill, and oh my God, how Am I forgetting his name? Dave Hill. And I went to Faith hill and Tim McGraw. Just a brain freeze moment.

But, Vanessa, I mean, this is your life that you're forgetting. Oh, that's right. I was at Faith Hill's house. But who was I with?

Oh, yeah, I know, exactly right. Well, they weren't there. They weren't. To be fair, they weren't there.

She was staying there.

It was their insane castle on a hill in like Bel Air or something. And she was there on her own because she was doing stuff in la and they had obviously said, like, oh, you could always stay at our house. So she took them up on it and she was so excited. It was like a fairy tale castle. And she was like the princess. She was running around showing me. I mean, I remember her giving me this extensive tour of the house where I was like, okay, that's a lot of rooms. Like, I don't need the wallpaper comments. Every single room. Because, you know, it was like that. Super excited. Taylor.

Yes. Well, how old was she at the time?

She was 19, so.

19 years old. So you were meeting her. Was she by herself in the house?

I think her dad was there. Her dad popped in and out.

Okay, so before we go and we dive into Taylor, just tell me your impression of Taylor's parents and the influence on her life and her career.

So Taylor's parents were lovely. I mean, they are both like, well off people. Her father was from, you know, supposedly a generation of bank presidents. He was a financial guy. Mother also did something in the financial world. So they were like very solid, suburban, sort of upper middle class or upper class parents. That is how they read to me. Of course, I had no idea that behind the scenes the marriage wasn't good. And all of this stuff that later came out well.

Now, compared to other parents, celebrity, you know, you've. You've interviewed a lot of celebrities compared to the stage parents out there. Could you even compare them? Are they similar?

I mean, come on. No, definitely not. I mean, and I do think there was a little bit of a stage child thing happening with Taylor. But what her father has always said is true, which is, you know, they're going around saying, can she make it in Nashville? Can she make it in Nashville? And somebody said to him, you can only make it in Nashville if you're free. And he was like, okay, well, listen to Taylor's tape here. And they were like, okay, she's a freak. Okay? She has the talent. She has the talent. She's a freak. Right? But she definitely was Doing a bit of like, you know, driving around with the parents, being a child star stuff. What I think is really fascinating is that in my experience, when you go interview, you know, a big rock star, pop star, whoever, they've always got this little entourage around them and it's always sort of the same people. Like, it's the mom, who's the momager. It's like the Kris Jenner, right? And then it's the long suffering best friend from middle or high school who's now like the personal assistant, okay? And then depending on who they are, you've got like maybe the stylist and then you've got like the ne' er do well brother, you know, and then you've got like the creative director who's like handling change, you know, put either putting their vision and stamp on that person or translating it, you know, into, okay, this is what we want the video to be. She wants to be running away from the paparazzi and then she wants to be in a heaven scene and she wants to wear crazy wings. You know what I mean? Like that person. And I thought it was sort of incredible with Taylor that really who she had were these two very solid parents who, by the way, were not interested in her money whatsoever.

Because they had money.

Because they had money. And they weren't looking at this as a financial situation. They felt like it was like a calling, you know, and believe me, a lot of these other parents also feel it's a calling. There's a lot of like Jesus talk when you talk to these people. And you know, when I interviewed Usher, it's like he was like, jesus has told me that I should be doing this with my life. And everybody was like, praise Jesus. And you know, I think I've heard it's sort of the same thing with Beyonce. But this was, you know, a calling and also the right thing to do for their daughter and also very interesting for them. Maybe a way for them to set up their kids for financial success. Right? But they weren't looking at it as their own money.

Okay? So that is one. That's one element that I do believe sets Taylor Swift apart from many, you know, young celebrities. Okay? Something I've always wanted to know. And not a lot of people can get into it because unlike you, they. They haven't seen the young Taylor Swift. I have a theory in my head based on her romance. So we're not going to go down the road of a romance, but it stems from when she was younger. Now, the first time you interviewed her wasn't it? Was this the first time that you met her when she was 19?

The first time I met her is when she was 19.

Okay. Now that's not too many years out of high school. I'm curious, is the maturity. The maturity level, was it somewhat stunted, do you think?

Well, I think there's that famous quotation that you get. You get stuck at the age that you get famous, and you can never really figure out how to mature past that in some way. Even though you will mature in some ways, but you really will always think of yourself as that person in that mindset. And I think that that's very true for her, you know, and then when. When is that? When did she get famous? Is that 17 maybe? Probably. Because by the time I interviewed her, you know, she was already on her second album. So I think that Taylor's stories about middle school being left out, being ostracized are absolutely true. Like, they are true. She was made fun of for having articles in the local paper about how she was singing the national anthem. She just made fun of for having frizzy hair. Everything was wrong with her, remember? Also what Taylor says is she's like, you know, 12, 13. These girls are starting to, like, drink. They want us, you know, hang out with boys, blah, blah, blah. Taylor, notably did not have a drink until her 21st birthday, right?

Yes.

And she said to me, she was like, they want to drink, hang out with boys. I'm like, oh, my God, I got to call my mom and get out of here. She's just like, never been that kind of person that wants to be rebellious in that way. So she's like the goody two shoes who is getting a lot of adult attention and is, like, a little weird and doesn't know the right thing to say and isn't cool. I mean, she was, like, totally the correct mark for bullies. I mean, my feeling about her when I met her was this is like the very pretty girl in the back of the glass who nobody thinks is pretty, even though she is, like, the supermodel in the class. And she's sort of fearful back there in a way. Doesn't really know how to relate to people, really. And she's sort of just waiting to blossom, which is, I think, what we saw happen to her. She blossomed like, before our eyes. And in some ways, it's a very similar arc to a Britney Spears or somebody like that, where you see her young, selling one image, and then over time, that image changes and morphs and blah, blah, blah, and you feel like you've been on this long journey with this person. You really know her. She's like a member of your family. Right. And so I think that's part of how she was able to, you know.

Become who she is today. Yeah. So the. So the areas that I want to look at, since you do have such a unique voice, viewpoint, you were with her enough that you knew that the two matched who she was. Absolutely matched her image. There's no performative actions on her part for you.

Yeah. I think the one thing that she hid the ball on when she was younger was that how controlled, how perfectionistic, how, like, just, like, you know, narrow about, like, I must become this star. She was. And driven. And I think she hit the ball in that and was like, I just want to fall in love.

Okay, Okay.

I love boys. And people were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, great. You know, because in country, you can't be that woman. You definitely can't be a teenager saying, I'm a driven psycho.

Repel people, repel people.

By all, you know, means necessary. So. But that's part of what I think has made her so fascinating over time, right. Is that over time, she really clicks into that American girlhood issue, which is American girls are now performing better than boys on in academics. They're going to college more than boys. They're more employable than boys. But they have this perfectionistic thing where, you know, it trips them up. I don't want to ask for that thing unless I know how to ask perfectly. I don't want to do that thing because I might fail. Like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And so she figured out a way to, like, weave this skein of both girlhood, which she really is in touch with, and Taylor, the CEO, Taylor, the female businesswoman. And that's been, you know, you could call it like, feminist capitalism or whatever if you want, but it's been very effective.

So would you say that the public perception of Taylor Swift matched the personal one of who you met when you were with her for that. For that stretch, doing research for your Rolling Stone piece? Does she match who she is now?

Well, I think that, minus that portion of it, I do think she matches it because she was so controlled and perfectionistic when I was with her. She was so clear about what she was doing with songwriting, the way that she used it for her, an emotional outlet. Right. She was like, I need when I feel something for somebody, and that doesn't mean like, an official boyfriend, girlfriend relationship. This is what she said to me, like, that Means maybe just a glance, somebody I feel a pang for this person, I texted this person, this person didn't text me back. Whatever it is, I feel that emotion really, really strongly and I need to put it in a song and like right away, that's what I do. And that's part of why she's so prolific. Right. That she uses that true raw emotion. She doesn't like sit on it.

Yeah.

She has gone on, of course, to have a million relationships. I mean, she's definitely not like holding back on that front, you know?

Yes. And I do. That's what I want to get to in my conversation with you is there are so many questions, unanswered questions about Taylor Swift out there. There's a lot of privacy, some might say secrecy. So when you interviewed her for Rolling Stone, your article, the Very Pink, Very Perfect Life of Taylor Swift, and even talking to you now about how strategic she was and how in control she was as well, that I think it appears has carried with her throughout her career. And even now she is still in a very almost perfect life by design. It's as if she's engineered the life she wanted. Would you agree with that?

She's so self actualized. There were just so few people in the world who are able to like make things happen with like just a wave of their hand and she's able to really express who she is. I mean, the interesting thing is, of course Galor is this whole theory that she's actually closeted and that nothing is true about the way she's presenting herself, which I think is not true. Like I, I do have to say I've looked into the scalar theory. I've made calls in the modeling world. I have like looked around with people I know who know lots of people who have hung out with Taylor Swift. Remember, she's pretty accessible in New York City. Like she was having people over to her house for dinner parties that, you know, part of this, like Ivanka, Jared, you know, Jared Kushner scene. She's, there's, she's friends with all the Victoria's Secret models. I mean, these people, there's chatter, right? Yes. Some people will argue that, you know, gay man on the DL will never keep a secret. A lesbian on the DL will keep a secret. But I have yet to find somebody who even has heard of this being possible, who really knows her, you know.

So who really knows her. Well, because that's the circle that you.

Know, the people who really, I mean, a little, a little communication, the, the people who really Know her well, say that she, you know, she dates guys, but that it's sort of on an infatuation, like surface level that she gets infatuated with people and then sort of disinfatuated, but it's not. Doesn't feel like a really deep relationship for somebody her age. Right. Cause she's in her mid-30s now.

These are the questions I get constantly when I dip my toe into the Taylor world. You know, I'm talking about the public relations, you know, the machinations behind Taylor Swift, because to me, it's. It's there. And now we're touching on it. Now to go back on Gaylor for a moment, you know, why people are talking about it again, the New York Times had a guest essay by Anna Marks and it was, you know, looking at the sexuality of Taylor Swift. And again, you know, some people are asking, did they do that for the clickable factor of it? I think whenever someone does any content, I mean, here you and I are both talking about it, people are going to be drawn to it. So there's always there.

And.

But you're saying that from the people you know and interacted with, no one has given you any indication whatsoever that Taylor is closeted at all or even living an open life or semi open as someone who's homosexual.

Correct? A hundred %. Okay. Yes, 100%. I mean, I was fairly convinced by the Anna Marks essay and by other people that have talked to me about how Taylor is using all of this queer coding. I mean, she has a song called Lavender Haze, which is about how she wants to stay in bed and have sex. And the love interest is a trans woman in that situation, which is cool, like if you are pro lgbtq, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But also hard to mess as something that, you know, the thing is called Lavender Haze and it's say, I want to stay in this lavender haze. I don't want to do all this 1950s stuff that they put on me society. I mean, these are.

Paraphrases. Yes, but Vanessa, let me. Vanessa, let me ask you this then. If she's doing that and she has this queer coding yet, she is intentionally not speaking to it. Now, based on the Taylor that you even knew, you know, then what is the play here? Why is she.

Doing. I don't know. I mean, I will say that this was my. So on my podcast, Infamous, I talked to Larison Campbell, lesbian podcaster, who was furious about this, was like, how can she appropriate all of our codes and our flags and all of, like, our coolness? And then say, oh, you know, I'm not sure if I'm queer or not putting out things like, you know, do you want me to run down the lesbian visibility thing? You know this.

Right? Yeah, well, yeah.

As.

Why? As every.

Swiftie. Yes. Right. So, you know, she says she has something to announce. It's lesbian visibility day and she announces me, exclamation mark coming out now. I mean, she knows exactly what she's doing, right? Because Taylor Swift is one of the ultimate publicists for herself. She is an incredible marketer. She's on the level of the Kardashian. She knows exactly what she's doing at all times. But my argument would be that she is not queer because there is literally no evidence and nobody would keep this secret for this number of years. And B, she is sees this as a societal good because she is an ally and she's trying to tell girls, you can be whoever you want. You don't have to just be in love with a boy. You can also be in love with a girl. Certainly in the scene that Taylor is in with Cara delavine and all these hardcore big Victoria's Secret models, though some of those women are gay. They are. Or they're at least bi, you know, so she's hanging out, she's having a dinner party with people and their girlfriend spouses who are gay, you know, so she is putting out imagery beyond just you need to love a boy and you need to get married to a boy at 25 and blah, blah, blah. She's a 34 year old single woman without children who has a lot of queer like symbols in her stuff. Like what? To me, that's like only a societal good, you.

Know? Yes, I agree with you on this. And my tell for it is whenever Taylor Swift does something where there's any type of strategy at play or secret or no statement, it's strategic everything. And that is the whole gaylor. It is the most heightened ongoing promotional campaign we've seen probably any artist do. That's why I just assume it's not true because she put so much energy into turning it into strategy. Now, moving from that onto, I mean, what goes hand in hand is gaylord to her relationships. Now, what is interesting that you said, and you said this in the podcast as well, when you talk about how she gets very fascinated and giddy and obsessed with people, you know, she dives in do. It feels more when men and boys are involved. We're seeing some genuine emotion there again, but shrouded in all this strategy. So now Speak to these heterosexual relationships that she's been going on for a number of years. What did you glean from meeting her and spending that time with her? In your research for the Rolling Stone article, what did you glean the. From the Taylor Swift that age to what we see now in these relationships?

Anything? Well, I mean, I remember her telling me, you know, I'd like to get married, but it's not the be all, end all. Like, I'm not focused on that. You know, I don't really care about it. It's not like a fantasy of mine. I think that I was not surprised to see that she was dating, like, lots and lots of guys because it was very clear that she wanted to have that special person, you know, so that. That after, you know, after I did the story about her, she started dating, you know, the John Mayers and Jake and all of those people. So I wasn't surprised. I mean, the Travis Kelsey relationship, I have to say, is a little bit of a head scratcher because he's not like a lot of the guys that she has typically gone for who are like sort of slender.

Actors. Oh, you're going with the physical description.

First. Well, I mean, she. She seemed like she sort of had a type, and it definitely wasn't. I mean, this guy's as far as from Joe as you can get. Yeah, yeah. Or the other one Joe. The more recent Joe, you know. Yeah, yeah. So I think the physical, but also just the, you know, she seemed like she didn't want people involved in her relationships. And then she goes for this guy who's so thirsty. All he wants to do is be the rock. He wants to be the biggest star in America. He is heart set on that. Right. And so he's obviously whipped her into, you know, back into shape of being cool with the cameras. Right. So now they're like America's sweethearts. I mean, they are the couple of the moment. There's nobody who even like comes.

Close. Comes close to it. Comes close to it. Travis. Travis Kelce for the NFL. I mean, he is the number one face of the NFL broadcast.

Commercials. Taylor Swift is like the mascot or something. No.

It'S. Exactly. But you know, you and I are alike on this one. I'm more sus on it because yes, I looked.

At.

It's. He's not her type, like the athlete, jock, quarterback. Also from the women he dated in the past. In my world of public relations and pr, people want to know, is it real or isn't it? Is it a PR relationship or Not. And I fall in the middle because pr, by definition, is just mutually beneficial, which clearly this relationship is. But what people really want to know is, is there genuine love there? Did they authentically meet? Is it genuine love? Is it a love of a.

Lifetime? And you say, well, okay, there's that old phrase, promo sexual by people who are more. More motivated by their need to promote themselves than they are by, like, sex itself. They're like a species, you know, And I think that he may be a promo sexual. Like, I think he needs to promote himself so badly that whether or not he's. I mean, look, she's gorgeous. She's the biggest pop star in the world. I mean, what's not to like, right? But he can't possibly not have noticed how incredible this is for him. I'm more interested in the question of if she cares about if it's good for her, because from a pure marketing standpoint, the two of them are letting each other access these new pools of fans, which is the most important thing. Right. Like, a whole new pool of people are watching the.

NFL. NFL, yes. This young pool of young, young girls. Yeah. Watching.

This. Right. I interviewed somebody on Infamous who was like, okay, this is what we say to, like, the young girls. We say, like, when Travis or somebody gets a touchdown, that's like a big slay. Yeah, it is. It's like a big.

Sleigh. I know, but I see. I pretend I don't see good things happening in the future here because I think Travis, like you said, a promisexual. He has his team and his team and, you know, Taylor. Taylor Swift's, you know, tree pain. I mean, talk about, you know, they're bringing publicity and publicists to the forefront. You know, they're coming out from behind the curtain. And the fact that Travis Kelsey's managers, his two publicists, the twin brothers. There's a New York Times article where they're saying, we don't want overexposure, yet. They're saying it in the New York.

Times. Yeah, exactly. Right.

Right. But I think the one part of their plan that they did not. They did not spend any time on is everything was about the onboarding and the entry. But what about the exit? He has to marry her. And if he doesn't marry her, I mean, these swifties are going to turn on Travis Kelsey so bad. So is the.

Problem. He's sort of locked. Yeah, he. They're like, locked in a medieval marriage or something where like, now the risk to either of them of. I mean, she doesn't have that much of a risk. But the risk to him of being, like, slaughtered in the streets if he breaks up with her is real. So, I don't know. I mean, I'm interested. I'm interested in, like, does Taylor Swift have children? Because then you're going to get, like, all of these.

Songs. Yes. On the whole, all the lines. Oh, my gosh, the.

Marketing. That's going to be Baby Gizzard.

Yeah. I feel like, even based on what you're saying, and I always had this vibe from her, I feel like she's part of that generation. Like, marriage, kids, they don't appeal to her. Maybe it's just me. And it's not that it's selfish at all. I just think she's living her life. Which also may explain why she may not want to get married. Okay. So I mentioned to her publicist, Tre Payne, who's now, you know, more people have learned about her. But if there's anything. When we think of a word associated with Taylor Swift now, it is strategic. And there are a lot of media moves, and everything seems so calculated and engineered with Taylor Swift. Did you get the sense even back then that things were. I don't want to say staged, but more engineered, that she was really a visionary in using these Easter eggs and these riddles and codes. Like, were you getting any sense of that from.

Her? I mean, remember when I interviewed her, she did her own MySpace and Twitter. I mean, she was, you know, controlling. She wasn't going to let somebody else do that stuff. And that's part of how she kept it genuine. So her relationship with her fans, I mean, I think because she started in the country music business, which is very, very controlled by country radio. And she did so many radio tours where she would drive to this new town and she would sit down with the folks there and blah, blah, blah, blah, you know, and then she. Who does she open for? She opened for somebody. Funny now, because, you know, she's Taylor Swift, but she realized very early on that getting fans to call into those shows, getting them to support her music, all of that was so important. And. And also she was young, so she was excited. Like, oh, you mean other girls want to be my friend? Like, she was really coming from that place of just, oh, my God, like, people want to talk to me. They want to say nice things about me, because people hadn't said nice things of her peer group to her yet. Really, you know, so for her, it was like a genuine psychological satisfaction that she was getting from those fans. And I think she Just was. Has been able to sort of tap into. I'm sure she gets annoyed from time to time, like everybody, but she's been able to tap into that wellspring of, like, love and affirmation and kindness with the fans over and over. That is what is so unique about.

Her. Yeah. So what you're tapping into now is it speaks to finding her community, where if she was ostracized in high school, in her ingenue years, and now she probably just loves a sense of community, of just all the people she's met. And you're saying all the friends that. That she has right now, that speaks to a lot of it. So the last piece of Taylor Swift that I find, you know, fascinating about her, considering she's a global superstar, is how she handles challenges and also adversarial relationships. I mean, she has adverse, well, quote, unquote adversaries out there. She's pretty strategic in how she deals with people who cross her. So let's talk about. And even in your podcast, you get into these relationships and the drama that she had with Scooter Braun and the Big Machine Records founder, Scott Bruschetta. So talk to me about that side of Taylor.

Swift. Well, she, you know, I think part of what comes along with being so driven to win is that you also need to get rid of everybody, like, in the way. Right. And she has not. Look, she had a phase with a situation with Katy Perry where she, like, got the entire, you know, starry firmament of Selena Gomez and Lena Dunham and all these people to, like, badmouth Katy Perry, which is not obviously aged well whatsoever. But since then, she seems to be very supportive of women. But she has been fierce about protecting her own work and going after men that she feels are trying to take her down right from Scooter, Kanye, Scott, etc, And I think that that has all worked incredibly in her favor. Like, that was sort of her big comeback after, like, people were sort of sick of the squad and they were like, that's just.

Annoying. It's interesting that you talk about the adversaries that she has, that they're primarily male. You know, she has gotten into her drama skirmishes before in the past. And you mentioned in the podcast, like, with Katy Perry and so on and so forth. But what we hear about are these, you know, are these challenges that she has with the Kanye west, the Scott Bruschetta, the Scooter Brawn. And she very publicly, but in a very strategic way, you know, is very cutthroat there and goes after the throat, but yet comes out on top. So in your podcast, you explored some of these relationships. So what did you learn about Taylor with her.

Adversaries? You know, I think she's really vicious when she feels she's wronged. Like, I feel that she just is not afraid of what people will think. Like, she sort of banished that part of her brain. You know, she. I mean, she stood up at different music conferences and just, like, said, like, this was BS that her masters were being taken away from her, BS that, you know, that Ticketmaster was screwing up her concert sales. She's just, like, not afraid. Like I. And I think that's, like, beautiful to watch, particularly coming from a woman, you know, because women are always worried if I say this thing, people will think I'm a bitch. They'll think I'm this, they'll think I'm.

That. And it's safe. I mean, those people are safe to take on. It's safe to take on Ticketmaster. Not only that, I mean, she's like the first artist who is successfully able to do it. And I know that they're putting Bruce Springsteen into the mix, but it really was Taylor Swift. In your podcast, you mentioned real life hackers, you know, the people who sue her for their own promotional purposes. Do you feel that, like Kanye west, for instance, I think we all can look at that and say that that was a promotional adversarial relationship for really kind of both of them. But there was a. There was real feelings in there as well. Do you.

Think? I think that it's a really complicated situation with the two of them. I think if you listen to the Kim Kardashian, Kanye West, Taylor Swift call, the blew up, like, you can see that he's completely, completely in the wrong, and he is leading her down the path to think that, like, these particular lyrics are the problem. But really he's about to say, like, I made that bitch famous. That's really the line that he needs to discuss with her. So he lies to her on the call, and, you know, she doesn't like being lied to. Obviously, this power dynamic went from him being the biggest, most respected artist in the world to him being like, he's mentally got some problems and she got raised up to being the biggest artist in the world, and that relationship of, like, who needs the clout? And can they ever really talk to each other? Or is he. I mean, you never found two people who are more different. I'm not just talking about black man, white woman. I'm talking about, like, Kanye like, makes no sense half the time. And that's part of. Even when he wasn't having problems. What, he was great about it as an artist. Right. Like, he wasn't this linear thinker. He was like a splatterer, you know, she's like the opposite of that. I can never see them writing a song together ever. I would think that that relationship is done. Dead as a dory now. She's not gonna go back and try to make nice. He probably will, but she'll just be like, you know. Yeah, after the anti Semitism and all of that, you're just.

Done.

Yeah. Like, unless he comes out and says, I am gonna go to this facility for a year and I'm gonna come out and I'm gonna really make amends maybe, you.

Know. Yeah, he's radioactive to her, I feel. But there is a future there with Beyonce. I think there's mutual promotional elements there. So I have one last question before I wrap up with you. You know, speaking with you. I'm sure it's so interesting to look back to the tailor who you met, you know, to watching her. I don't know if you ever watch any of these NFL games and seeing her and just seeing how big she is or even her on her tour, it's incredible. Back then, when you were interviewing her for Rolling Stone magazine, do you think the aspirations that she had back then for herself, has she matched them or far exceeded them? Or do you think she always knew she was going to be one of the biggest stars of.

All? Well, she said to me when I interviewed her, like, I. I cannot believe that I'm going on the COVID of Rolling Stone. I never in my wildest dreams thought this would happen to me. I thought like, maybe I would get like Country Music Weekly, you know, I never thought this would happen and I believed her, but I do. There is part of me that thinks that, you know, now that it has happened, she sort of thinks it was heaven sent and it is like sort of what she desired from the time. But I don't think think that she is like an ego monster. And I think that's part of what makes her relatable also is that she doesn't have that, like, evil, sociopathic narcissist. She's very benign, benign.

Narcissist. You know, she just believed in herself as a person, artistry, her drive, all of it. And it came to fruition for her. It's like she. Some people have a belief that, like you said, you know, that Jesus came down and did a divine intervention but with her it's like yeah, maybe there's a little bit of that but really it's just her hard work and her talent, you know that that paid off for her in the long run. Well Vanessa, thank you so much for taking this time to start you know to dive into Taylor Swift in the early years. We everyone spends so much time in her current years right now and there's so many questions but I'm a big believer you can learn so much about the present we when you go back in the.

Past.

Absolutely. Thank you so much. Take care. Thank you. My thanks to Vanessa Grigoriadis for joining me on this episode. Remember you can find her podcast infamous Inside America's Biggest Scandal. She has a four part series all about Taylor Swift before she was famous. And remember you can also find more off the record commentary on my Patreon Patreon PR Confidential. That's all for this week. Bye for.