30: How to Nail Your Next Media Interview with Brad Phillips

Hey there. Welcome back to the Confident Communications Podcast. I'm your host, Molly McPherson. This week I'm speaking with Brad Phillips. Brad is a longtime friend of mine in the social media age. What that means is we've never met, we've never spoken to each other, but we have followed each other on Twitter for the past few years. The reason why I'm so excited to speak with Brad is because one in the Venn diagram, in our business, we both intersect around media training. That is his full time gig. He is the chief executive throughliner at the Throughline Group. It's a public speaking and media training firm based in New York City with offices in Washington D.C. as well. But another reason why I loved following Brad is because he would tweet about the same type of news events that I would, he would watch the same types of programming, he would watch the same presidential debates and would have the same opinion. So of course, in the social media world, like minded thinkers or tweeters tend to connect. He was one of the first people I wanted to bring on this podcast to talk about media relations. This time from a media trainer perspective. A few weeks ago I had Jean Mazurb on the podcast and she was a former correspondent at ABC News and CNN and she was giving us the reporter's perspective. Brad also has a background working at ABC News. He worked for Nightline and cnn and he's going to give the listeners that media training background. And he is good. He has trained thousands of media spokespeople and public speakers, including a presidential candidate, members of Congress, Olympic athletes, top CEOs, directors of nonprofits and heads of government agencies. He's also prepared people for TED talks and his book, the Media Training Bible. Well, it's my bible for media training. It's one of the top selling titles on the topic. And I'm sure any of you that have worked in media training or communications or you have to prep your leaders to be a media spokesperson. You've read a lot of books out there and you know about a lot of media trainers. Brad Phillips, in my opinion, is the top. And here's why. Take a listen. Hello Brad. Thank you for joining me on the Confident Communication podcast.

Molly, what a great treat to be with you.

A treat. No one ever says it's a treat to speak with me. So you're the first.

Well, we'll see what we're saying at the end of the podcast. I am pretty confident we'll be in the same place.

Yes. Oh, very good. Touche. Touche. Okay, so Brad Phillips you and I were discussing just before we started the recording here, that we've been following each other online, predominantly on Twitter for, I believe, a few years now. Correct?

Yes. I have seen and admired your work for some time, and I'm thrilled to see what you are doing now with podcast, which is a medium that I enjoy as a listener but have never done as a podcaster. So I am happy to be in your hands. Yeah.

And here's the reason why I do like following you is because I feel as if we have a similar mindset as it relates to the media industry, the news industry, and also public affairs, politics. I think where I really noticed you first is when I worked for a media training company in Washington, D.C. and you have one as well. And I noticed that we were always in the same channels, and I feel like you and I think alike on a lot of things.

There is something from a journalism background, I suppose, where after a while you develop a bit of an impatience. You really want to get to the point. And one of the great things of being a media trainer is that's your gig. That's your job to help people get to their headline very quickly. And when you then are able to help them, not only get to their headline, but articulate it in a way that is unusually compelling and engaging to the audience, it's extremely effective for them, but it's satisfying on the training side for us. And so maybe that's where some of the synchronicity came into play when it came to following one another.

Yeah. And also you have that terrific moniker of Mr. Media Training.

In the old days, when I started the blog, having the term media training in your URL was important for SEO, for search engine optimization. And so I decided to be Mr. Media Training for that reason. Now, that was the only reason at the time. And subsequently, it's much less important for those terms to be in the URL. But what happened, and I never anticipated this, was people started calling me Mr. Media Training. And that was never my intention and it was a boast that I never intended to make about myself. But that's ultimately what happened. Mr. Media training has now gone away. It is now still my Twitter feed, but the company has changed. But anyway, that's the origin of that moniker.

Oh, I love that. So, yeah, so let's discuss, you know, for a moment. We'll start off here and talk about the transition from Mr. Media Training to your new company, Throughline Group. You're the CEO, correct?

That's right. We. I jokingly refer to myself as the chief executive throughliner.

And I love that it doesn't quite have the same ring yet as Mr. Media Training. But tell me, what is a throughliner?

Well, a through line historically is an elevator. It's something that you'll find it's a term that comes out of the world of theater and film. And it's the idea that everything in that play, everything in that narrative or that film is all pushing toward a logical endpoint. And so, first of all, that is naturally has an analogy to the work that we do. And I also like the term, the idea that there's a beginning point and an end point, because I think that applies to our trainings too. And one of the things we want to do as a company is not do the one and done trainings, which that's what we have historically done for the past 15 years. And whenever you. You do a media or public speaking training workshop, it, if it's done right, it can be extremely beneficial for the person who attends it. But the thing that had left me unsatisfied was the idea that at the end of the day, 5pm hits and the person walks away and leaves, and that's the end of it. And so we wanted to have our own through line of sorts where that wasn't the end of the day, that we would be with somebody from the beginning, from their beginning point, whatever that was, and stay with them through their end point, which was the point at which they were finally happy, that they achieving what they wanted to as a communicator.

Clever, clever, clever. Someone's thinking like a true business person. So I follow you and I followed, you know, your old company. But when I saw Throughline pop up one day on Twitter, I said, oh, man, that Brad's a genius. I love it. Now I would like to talk about the customer. I think you and I something that, well, we share multiple things. But one thing I do know we share is I feel like we have the same customer, the same avatar. And I feel that, you know, media training, traditional media has been the same for so long. For decades you had three networks and then we had the introduction of cable news. And I know that you worked at. You have background from ABC News and cnn, correct?

That's right, Yep.

Okay, so you were in that traditional sense, so was I. But now we've noticed this shift that has changed into, into the modern age. And the person that goes through a media media training seminar of 10 years ago is probably much different than the needs of someone nowadays. So for the listener, I wanted to talk about just the benefits of media training, presentation training, and why it's so critical to them now and how it could help them in this kind of modern age leadership. Let me, could you explain what you do that might be a little bit different or set you apart from other media trainers or presentation trainers?

Well, I think there are a few answers to that question on the, on both sides, the media and presentation side. I think one thing we do, I'll just give you a quote from one of our clients. They said that before our training with them, we went Google crazy. And what they meant by that was that we did such a deep dive on understanding who they were, the types of things they had said in the press, that even during the practice interviews we knew in advance how they were likely to answer the question and therefore had the inevitable follow ups ready to go. And also, knowing a lot about a company and the way that they communicate in the press and the types of questions reporters are likely to ask also allows you to give more informed input in terms of their messaging. What works, what doesn't work. I think the other thing that, beyond that customization that we really try to bring to the degree possible is a research basis to our advice. And you know, one of the things that we see a lot when people come into our sessions is somebody who is very compelling, very engaging when they sit down at the table and start talking with us. And one of the things I like to do when somebody first comes into the training room is just chat with them. Because ultimately what I want to do is get a sense of what their baseline is. Just when they're not trying to do something on camera, when they're not on a stage giving a speech, how do they present, what qualities do they lead with that are engaging and that might be very engaging to an audience.

Let me ask you a question right here. I have to interject because you just said that most of the people in your training are engaging and compelling. Most of the people in my training I find, lack it and they know they need it. So are you getting savvy communicators right off the bat or are you identifying something that's compelling or engaging in them that might come off on camera?

Well, that's a thank you for clarifying that. I think what I'm seeing is in their natural. If somebody is in some way inhibited the moment they're on a stage or the moment that a camera, a camera's light turns red, that record light comes on often, I saw a more engaging version of them when they were just at the table chatting with me. Where are you from? Where have you worked? So whether somebody might objectively call that person engaging and charismatic or not, there is often a different version of the person that I'm seeing when they're in their natural state, when they're just talking now. And so that's what I'm trying to do, dissect what are they leading with, what is charming about them. And you know, I might be using a loose definition of the term charming too because, for example, we work with a lot of scientists and what's charming about them might be their love of data and. But that's something that you can use in an interview or a speech and by minimizing qualities that might be distracting to an audience, but then emphasizing the ones that could draw an audience toward them.

Well, let me ask you this then. I just spoke yesterday or two days ago, and when I had talked about a leader on camera, I was speaking to a number of communicators and we were talking about how to make their leaders effective on camera. And the switch that I think that I've made, or the pivot here is where we would try and soften the edges as much as we could in traditional media training. I'm starting to become more drawn to the authentic or raw qualities of a person that makes them interesting. So you use the example of a scientist. I was using an example of an engineer. But sometimes we don't need to make an engineer a professional speaker. It's what makes that engineer so unique. But we just have to help them communicate our message. Well, does that resonate with you?

Absolutely. That word you used, authenticity is key. And once in a while I'll show a clip in our trainings of a scientist, a statistician actually named Hans Rosling. He's a Swedish statistician and he gave one of the most viewed TED talks of all time. It's a very data heavy talk where he talks about things like UN population statistics. And the reason I show a brief excerpt from that is because if you're objectively grading his performance, he does a lot of things that are wrong. He looks down at his laptop a lot. He fumbles over words in a few places. He is, is not as connected at moments with the audience as perhaps he could be. He makes what I might call a dad joke which kind of falls flat in the audience. And yet almost always people in the, in the training room love him and they think he's one of the best speakers they've ever seen. And I think that makes such an important point, which is there is difference between being effective and being perfect. And people who are too tightly controlled are making their jobs much harder for themselves. Audiences will forgive imperfection if the authenticity, the connection and the preparation are all there.

Brad, I think you just. We just made the through line between Brad Phillips and Molly McPherson. I preach the exact same thing. I've been endorsed. My thoughts have been endorsed by you. That's wonderful.

Well, I'm so happy we're finally on the phone together. Yes.

So. So for listener now, I guess what we're saying and what you're saying, and I'm backing up, is that being yourself and showing that raw side of you, the authentic. The authentic side of you is something that you want to bring forth and not necessarily hide or diminish.

Absolutely. I'll give you one of my favorite analogies from a client of ours who had kind of an aha moment during our training. And I'll clean up her language a little bit for the sake of your listeners. But okay, but here's what she said. It was funny. We were in a. We happened to be in a conference room that had a painting. It was a golf course scene that was a painting on the wall. And she looked at it and she said, you know, as you're telling me all of this about public speaking, I keep looking at that picture because I've been taking golf lessons and the golf instructor I've been working with says that accuses me of trying to whack the ball so hard every time I get up to. To hit the ball. And what the golf pro said to her was, you know, if you loosen your grip, you're going to hit the ball a lot further. And I think there is such a truth to that when it comes to really anything in life, but certainly to any type of media or public communication, that when you're tightly gripping that club and trying to control everything and articulate a concept with the exact right words, it comes at a cost. And it comes at a cost of the connection you have with the audience. And when you loosen your grip, even though it sounds maybe paradox, you end up hitting that ball many, many yards further than you otherwise might.

Oh, I like this. So loosening the grip. So if someone is sitting down, they're getting ready to do a media interview, an on camera interview, just that idea, the visual of loosening the grip is going to help people. Now let's move into this idea of media training. I want to focus on that for a minute. Now, you are the author of the Media Training Bible 101 things you Absolutely, positively need to know before your next interview. And you are speaking to one of the readers of your book, by the way.

Thank you for your support.

I love your book, I really do. And I'm going to be honest here. Let me give you my authentic real moment here. I was using it and I had it with me and I brought it on a trip and it did not come home with me. So there's some made in a hotel somewhere that's probably using this book. No, I absolutely love this book. So tell me, could you summarize? Some things could help someone going on camera, they're getting ready for a media interview. How could they loosen their grip? Some tips.

I think the first thing to do is think about the person to whom you're speaking. It's not the journalist. The journalist is the person who will interpret your words for the audience that matters. And one of the things I think about a lot when we're doing trainings is why do people have fear? People often have fear. I mean, there's a lot of answers to that question and the answer is different for many people, but one of the reasons for a lot of people is if you know that your interview is being recorded and will be seen by 100,000 people, or if it's network television, perhaps millions of people, of course that's anxiety producing. And so one of the things we talk about is you are not a broadcaster and you are never broadcasting because the way we receive information is one person at a time. And you know how to talk to one person at a time. You've been doing it your entire life and your entire career. So let's think about a person that you would be thinking about in your audience and let's identify who that is. And I will really push somebody to think about the archetype of who that person in their audience is. Maybe it's a 42 year old woman who lives in downtown Detroit who is a professional, who is married with three people. Okay, so we'll go through that exercise of identifying the person and then of course, when I ask the question, do you know how to have a conversation with her? The person says yes. And so really the way you loosen your grip is you stop thinking about broadcasting to a large audience and you start talking about just having a conversation with her. Because the odds are if you reach her effectively, you reach everybody else in the audience who matters to you as well.

Good point. That's a very good tip. Now you have a background. I Had mentioned you worked at CNN and also ABC News. There's some pretty tough reporters out there. And I had recently had former CNN correspondent and ABC News anchor and reporter Jean Mazerve on the podcast and she's, she's pretty tough. She's one tough cookie. I, I worked with her as someone who worked in public affairs, so I know how good she is. Now what if they're with a reporter who is very intimidating, is there if they can't see through the reporter necessarily to look for their, their end user there or the archetype, Are there some tips that they could do that are anxiety reducing just sitting there getting ready to go on, on the air?

Well, I think a couple of things are helpful and one of the most interesting things I see when, when people are thinking about reporters like Jean Mazur and by the way, I am a member of that Gene Mazur fan club. I, when I was at cnn, she was always one of my favorite people to watch on the air in large measure for the exact reason you said. And so when I'm, when I'm in a room and people are trying to come up with what would their answers to whatever tough question is that they're thinking about. Oftentimes it's really interesting to observe that because from person to person in the room they're all, it's almost a creative thinking exercise. They're all coming up with, well, maybe we could say this, maybe we could say that instead. And I usually let that go on for a few minutes and at the end of maybe 15 minutes or so, I'll say, can I just cut in here for a moment and ask a question? I have a non disclosure agreement with you. So just for my own understanding, can you tell me what the real answer is? And I would say probably 60% of the time that's the answer they end up using on the air. And so I think part of what happens when it comes to media trading is people, or I should say thinking about tough reporters is people twist themselves into knots thinking about how do I come up with an answer that will satisfy the reporter in the audience when really the answer sitting in front of them the whole time. Now that's not always the case, but it often is. And the second thing I would say is I think a lot about the concept of leaning into a question rather than defending against it. And I'll give you an example. And this comes up in our trainings a lot, unfortunately. And just earlier today, the day that we're recording this, this came up during A phone call with a client. One of the things that comes up, unfortunately, a lot is the lack of representation at the C suite. Too often, whatever racial or ethnic group and the percentage of women who are in the C suite is much lower than it should be. And when I, in my Jean Meserve mode, ask somebody a tough question, you know, I looked at your website. You have seven directors on your board. All of them are men. Most of them are white. Tell me about your commitment to diversity. And of course, they can barely get a sentence out because they start sputtering because. And they'll usually, when they get their thoughts together, go to an answer like, well, there's a pipeline issue in our industry. Historically, there haven't been enough minority groups or women who have come up the ranks. And therefore, it's hard to. And that, to me, is just one of those answers that is going to satisfy exactly no one. Maybe there is some truth to what historically has happened in that industry, but it doesn't help. So the concept of lean in is to be able to just say, you're right, this is a problem. We are aware that it's a problem, and let me tell you a few things that we're doing about it. We certainly haven't fixed the problem yet, but we understand there is one and we're committed to solving it. And once you kind of have conversations with people around that, suddenly they relax a little bit because they realize you don't have to have the perfect answer to still give a credible and authentic one. So I think giving people that safety valve really helps.

Yes. Okay. We. I have just uncovered another through line. I spoke these words a couple days ago as well, and I, I'm glad to hear that you, that you share the same thought. You don't necessarily have to scramble to find that perfect answer that you think they want to hear that will satisfy them is if you use the truth, but you put the truth into context. Like, you're correct. This is the makeup of our board, you know, but this is what we're going to do. This is what we're looking towards. Because you're right, that responsive answer is, well, no women run for the board. No people of color run for the board. What the answer then should be, we recognize that we don't have enough people representation on our board. That's why we're looking for them. And we've enacted these changes, you know, whatever, so that you move the conversation forward.

Absolutely right. I think in large measure, what people are looking for is, does this person get it to me, that's the highest compliment you could give somebody. They get it. They may not be perfect, they may not have fixed every problem, but they get it. They understand why people would be concerned about the issue. And then part two of that is do they have a credible plan to be able to address that issue? And you know, I'm not so naive to think that that's going to solve every issue or satisfy everybody in an audience. And certainly the context about any individual situation can be different. But in large measure, those two checkboxes must get checked for somebody to succeed in a media interview.

Now you use the phrase I get it. Now the last time I heard I get it was from Joe Biden when he was giving his video on Twitter describing why. Well, he didn't say it in these words, but I call it why he has a creepy Uncle Joe problem. But how do you think, if I could just go off for a moment, how do you think Joe Biden is doing in terms of from a media perspective?

Well, I think the. I'll just latch on to one part of that which I found troubling and that is his, his entire announcement video was, well, it was twofold because there was context. The real reason was there were. There have been lots of instances in which he's touched people, he says, in an empathic way. And certainly I can understand that because it certainly appears to be that in many situation. But then he had a complaint from at least one person who said that they were violated, they felt a sense of violation, that he was too intimate with them physically. But that said, the context around that is Anita Hill and his failure 20 some years ago to when he was responsible for the committee that was looking at her testimony to deal with her allegations in the best way he possibly could have. And all of this is to say what troubles me the most is that he called Anita Hill not to apologize, but to maybe express a sense of regret shortly before he formally announced his campaign. And I think when any kind of apology looks like it's forced by circumstances and events rather than from a genuine sense of wanting to apologize, it's going to fall flat. And I think it would have looked very different if two years ago or five years ago he had made that phone call instead of doing it shortly before he launched his campaign.

Oh, absolutely. So you are helping us transition into that next obstacle that I notice a lot of leaders have or spokespeople have surrounding this idea of the apology. So there's acknowledging an issue and there's apologizing for it. Let's say an organization, a leader is at fault. What advice do you give for the apology? How do you apologize?

Well, first of all, apologize. None of this hedge language of things like I'm sorry to those of you who were offended, which puts the burden on them for being offended, rather than saying I'm sorry I said something insensitive. But I think the thing, and this is just a human dynamic that is very easy to understand, often what happens is people get stuck on what their intention was versus the way it was perceived. And as a result, because somebody might say, you know, because somebody might legitimately feel confused why the public reacted a certain way or a certain person.

Can you think of a rip from the headlines example of that?

Well, in an extreme case, ripped from the headlines, I mean, Penn State comes to mind, although that's obviously several years old. I'll give you a perfect example. United Airlines, when The passenger, David, Dr. David Dow got dragged off the plane, he as a reminder to your listeners, was a paying passenger who had a boarding pass, who was seated on the flight that he paid for, who then refused to give up his seat when the airline admitted that they overbooked and then ultimately was physically injured and dragged off the plane. United Airlines, the CEO, released an incredibly tone deaf apology. And in fact, if I could remember the word he used, he said we apologize. I think he said we apologize for having to re accommodate the passenger. What kind of euphemism is that? Re accommodate as he's full of bruises. That's one heck of a re accommodation.

Well, do you think, Brad, let me ask you, I have to interject for just a moment because of course I latched onto that story as well when that happened in 2017. Do you feel that re accommodate is legal, is legal language that they, that the lawyers came in first before the public relations people?

Well, there's, it's, I mean, a, that is absolutely a possibility and often happens or be there may be a sense that they didn't do anything wrong, that their guidelines may be somewhere published on a terms and conditions page on their website that nobody ever looks at because who has time to read those things? Maybe it's spelled out their right to do that. And so maybe they felt entitled to act in the way that they did and they weren't willing to budge on the fact that they were within their rights. This passenger, as a, as a, a ticketed passenger should understand the rules of carriage and has some responsibility. So it's hard to know which of those two things is true. Although the lawyer Certainly can create those situations.

Well, now I feel I need to go online and look at the fine print. Does RE accommodate mean they bring in two big guys that physically constrain you and drag you down the aisle? Maybe that's the definition of re accommodate at United Arabic Airlines.

Well, right. And so they released this terrible apology that. That fell incredibly flat, as you would imagine. And then he released. He actually released a second statement, this one to employees. But of course, when you release something to employees, you can assume that that's going to go public. And he did kind of a blame the victim thing there where he talked about the belligerent behavior of the passenger. And then finally, I think it was three or four days afterwards, words, he went on one of the network morning shows, Good Morning America. Yep. Oscar Munoz, the CEO, and delivered, I thought, what was in many ways a very good interview. And this gets to the problem that I see a lot of times in apologies. The first interview, the first apology didn't work because it wasn't a true apology. Then the backlash against the company magnifies the original crisis to make it an even bigger crisis. And then they have to give a second, second statement, which in that case is typically a much better apology. And my advice to people is let's try to shortcut the first apology and get to the second one first. The goal in a crisis oftentimes is to shrink the news cycle. And a bad apology does the exact opposite.

Yes. And we're just seeing this now with Boeing, the Boeing Company. They almost followed the exact same playbook of United States, where they tried to skirt it and get away from it, and then it stuck to them. And then even with the delayed apology, it still sticks because you haven't sold it because of the delay.

That's right. And you know, behind the scenes, I'm not going to comment on Boeing because obviously they're not a client of ours. And I don't know the backstory there.

I thought you were going to say, I'm not going to comment because they were a client.

No, that would be. Boy, I would be probably in a basement somewhere.

Yes.

Trying to help them navigate through that one. But what I often see in those types of situations is, so what's the reason that they came out with a bad apology? And sometimes when you get inside, you learn that there's a lot more context than you immediately would have seen on the outside. Maybe it's an executive who doesn't want to say something because it would sell someone out on the executive team who they like. Personally a lot. And they just don't want to say to dig in even harder on that person. Or maybe there was a conversation with a client who is now complaining bitterly in the press. But when you get a little bit more information about the interactions between the company and that client, you realize there's a lot that that client didn't say that changes the perception of that. But again, they don't want to say that publicly because they realize there may be no when to do that. So sometimes, and this is even in you mentioned My old blog, Mr. Media Trade, in the early days of that, I used to look at the initial set of facts that were public and write articles about it, often scathing about their poor crisis management. And I've really backed off of that a lot because what I've come to understand is that from the outside, you are not seeing the complete picture of what's driving their behavior. And it's only when you get a much more complete sense of facts that you can understand what really is happening behind the scenes.

Yeah. And it's that behind the scenes is when executives, the C Suite, they still have that mindset where we can cover or shield our operations, when the public now demands so much more transparency. So that's where I see in, at least in the spokesperson realm, that disconnect why sometimes these campaigns fall flat.

Yes. And there is a question that sometimes, as painful as it is, you have to answer, which is, do you want to be right or do you want to win? Because both of those two things can exist in the same universe.

Oh, such good advice, Brad. Now, for the. For the listener that knows that they are going on the air soon, or someone that frequently speaks to the press, can you offer some basic tips to help a person either prepare for an interview or they're sitting down to the interview. Some interview tips that would be helpful.

Yeah. First and foremost, I would say adopt an opportunity mindset, not one of fear, but one of this is great. We have a chance to communicate with people about this idea, this project, this product that we feel very passionately about. We're excited to be able to have the chance to do that. Then think about who the audience is and what you would like them to think or believe if you are successful in the interview and develop those basic two or three messages that you would like to deliver to them. Now, of course, if it's a long interview, you can't simply deliver two or three messages over and over again because that gets back to your authenticity word. Nothing undermines authenticity more than someone who is so overly scripted that the connection breaks. So one of the ways around that is coming up with great, compelling supports, examples, anecdotes and case studies to reinforce each of the messages you're hoping to deliver and data points that help to reinforce them. Analogies are great because they connect to something people already know and then take what they already understand to a new level. And to keep in mind that while the interview should sound conversational, it truly isn't a conversation because it is a strategic communication intended to help achieve a purpose. And so keeping that in mind and doing the homework of coming up with what do I want to say in advance? Ultimately, the goal is not to be so reactive that you go anywhere the interviewer wants to take you, because you might be very good at answering all of those questions. But then you get the newspaper the next day and you say, out of everything I said in that interview, why did they use that? And it's painful for people, not that they have a disastrous story come out, but that the main point they hoped would be seen by the public didn't get seen and that a secondary or tertiary point was the one that was included in the story. So that's why that focus on what do you want to say and how could you deliver it in the most compelling way? And keep coming back to that is so important for interviewees.

Now, you mentioned the word newspaper. And for anyone under the age of 35 listening, that is that paper that you might see that comes to a doorstep or, you know, people might at an airport be holding this paper where they can get news that's not electronic. I'm wondering, when you do media training, when people think of media training, they think of television news. Have you noticed the amount of requests for television news interviews dropping and something else coming in to fill it now that we're in 2019?

Well, I think this interview is a perfect demonstration of that with the proliferation of audio podcasts or video podcasts, FaceTime, lives, Skype interviews. So yes, the what an interview is certainly has changed. And really every interaction that you have in life is a media interview of sorts.

Because when that I like that when.

That person, okay, so, you know, I tell a story, I told a story candidly on my website several years ago. It was one of those very early mornings. I was at an airport in Denver. I had about 30 minutes before my flight and 20 minute line to get breakfast. And I knew sitting in coach I would not be served breakfast and was getting very anxious. Second cash register opens. The person in the back of the line goes up to that cash register instead of the people who had been waiting for 20 minutes in the line. I lost it. I mean, I didn't lose it terribly, but I say, excuse me, we've been waiting here. That's not right. How dare you. We are, I'm going to miss my, you know, that kind of thing that, that people who are exhausted and agitated and. And now think about that in a social media landscape, in a smartphone world where anybody could have recorded that and put it online and suddenly the headline would have been Mr. Media Training. Who teaches everybody else how to interact with everybody else. Look how he acts when he's at an airport. Wow. So that's what I mean by at any moment. And I walked away from that going, let's just hope nobody happened to record that. And I've never let that happen again because I live my life as if it's being recorded. And unfortunately I think you have to. And so that's how the world has changed. And you know, there's something in the book I call a seven second stray, which is the idea that if you're on message 59 minutes and 53 seconds of an hour long interview and for seven seconds you say something flip, sarcastic or otherwise off your message, inevitably that's what the reporter will include in the story. And I think no matter how well it one lives their life, it's that seven seconds which often they become known for. And I think more than anything that is what's changed in this transition from traditional media to social media.

Well again, there's another through line. I mean in my training I do the same thing. I have media training for the non communicators and instead of focusing all the time on sitting down for a local television news or a network news interview, it's when the phone gets picked up and someone starts filming you. Now the seven second stray, that is your term, correct? You came up with that?

That's right, yes.

Now is there an example of the 7 second stray that you could give the listeners that they could remember?

Well, the most famous one, and I cite this at the beginning of the media training bible, you may remember. Well, you certainly remember. Your listeners may remember. I think it was 2011, British Petroleum has their terrible oil spill in the Gulf and the CEO was a guy named Tony Hayward. And to give some background on this, 11 people who were employed by the oil rig which had the disaster died. Beyond that, thousands of people who lived in the Gulf region were suddenly unemployed because they, if you owned a fish restaurant, you could serve fish anymore. And people who worked in Associated Industries suffering badly. Tony Hayward gets on TV and the words that he will fairly or not be remembered for are I'd like my life back. In other words, the crisis was so hard on him as the millions of dollars a year earning CEO of British Petroleum that he suddenly made himself the victim. Or so it seemed. And what's interesting about that example is that if you watch the full exchange before he said those words, he did express his commitment. He did try to make clear how sorry they felt and how they were doing the right, trying to do the right thing. It was only at the end of that where he said, I'd like my life back. And that one bit at the end was the thing that got used.

Now, do you still use that clip in your training?

It's a little long on the teeth, but it does make a pretty useful point about the lack of context that here he is trying to say the right thing and he just tagged it with one sentence too many at the end. And that applies, I mean that I'm sure you and your media trainings. I have an expression I'll sometimes use which is when you score the touchdown, get off the field. And so many times people will score the touchdown with a great answer and then they just keep talking another 15 seconds and it's in that 15 seconds where something goes wrong. Wrong.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. When I, I just saw, I just saw the Hayward clip two weeks ago at, at a training and you're absolutely right, it is a little long in the tooth. You, is, is there a converse to that? You know, the seven second stray that leads to a bad quote in your training? Do you talk about the stray that leads to a positive one?

Well, that is such an astute question because yes, if you understand what types of reporters like to use and then can articulate one of your main messages in the context of that, then there's a very good chance they're going to hear it and use it. And analogies, metaphors and similes, rhetorical questions, references to pop culture triples the idea of we came, we saw, we conquered life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Certain types of quotes like those tend to hit reporters ears. And so a lot of times what a great exercise to do is think about what you want to say and what you hope your audience gets out of it, then cross reference that against the types of quotes reporters love to use. And I'll give your listeners a tip, which is when they go to online news stories, when they go on CNN, dot com or Fox News.com or NBC.com or whatever they read. Pay attention to the quotes, because what you'll learn over time is that there are patterns that keep coming up over and over again. And when you learn what those are and start to dissect them, you can morph your own messages, your own content into those formats, which gives you a much better chance of getting the quote that you hope they would run into that news story.

Oh, can you give an example of a pattern?

An example of a pattern? Well, analogies are probably better. The best one, and even though the one I'm about to give you is a bit hackneyed at this point. But just as an example, you start with, like any kind of analogy, you start with something people are familiar with, and then you try to build from it. So people five years ago might have used where the Amazon of X, whatever their industry was, or where the itunes of this were, the Uber of that. So that's an example of a pattern that you see common. You would want references that are a little bit more topical and directly related to your industry. But that's the type of pattern I'm talking about.

Oh, that's great. Examples. Now, you had mentioned about where people find these media opportunities nowadays, and you mentioned podcasting. Let me focus on the audio for just a moment. Are there any tips that you give for someone doing either a radio interview, which there are plenty of radio stations out there that still do, terrestrial radio stations, there's satellite radio, of course, and podcasting. Any tips that you could share for those types of interviews?

Well, podcasting, I think, and terrestrial radio are very intimate conversational mediums, I think more so for podcasting, where the audience is staying with the same person, in the case of a podcast like yours, from 30 minutes to an hour. And so having that conversational mode. Now, that said, people often interpret conversational as a little bit more subdued, a little bit quieter. And there's an interesting distortion people have in terms of how much energy that they think they're projecting. I'm sure you've experienced this too, where you ask somebody at the end of an interview, on a scale of 1 to 10, how much energy do you think you were projecting just now? And they'll say something like seven or eight.

Great.

And then you'll turn to the rest of the room and you'll say, what do you think? And they'll say maybe a four. That there's this disconnect between the amount of energy they think they're conveying and the amount they really are and so one of the things we'll do in a practice room when it comes to a medium like this is we'll ask the person to. I hate using the word be bigger because it sounds like it's a command, but be bigger in your context. Maybe a better way of saying it. What do you look like when you're excited about something? So let's start there, even in the more intimate medium, and see if it's as discordant as you might think it is. Because the surprise for most people is what felt like too much and too big is often exactly right.

Oh, absolutely. And, yeah, it's very difficult to be discordant on an audio interview, I feel, is if you're standing up, you're using your hands, you're making expressions with your faces, even though no one can see you, they can feel you. And it can.

I mean, Molly, my. My Fitbit will probably record about 2,000 steps during just our interview right now, as I pace back and forth and my office mate looks at me like I'm a crazy person. But yes, and there's. There's evidence to support that, that, that standing helps to. I'll just tell you from my own experience what I see a lot. This. This idiom of people think quicker on their feet. I found it. But more than me, I've had hundreds of clients over time talk to me about when they're on a conference call and they're speaking, they typically will get up and pace. And what I typically find when they do that is that the headline tends to be closer to the top of their answer. It's not as buried. And their sentence structure tends to change. Everything becomes a little bit more staccato. It's much punchier and quicker than when they're sitting. When the sentences themselves can become longer and a little more plotting.

Oh, I love that tip. Yes. So it's that mind body connection.

No question about it. And stay tuned, there will be a blog post soon about that very point.

Oh, wow. Okay. Well, then let's transition there. So you still. So we are speaking with Brad Phillips and he's with Throughline, and it's Throughline group dot com. So you're at the Throughline Group. So you have a running blog right now. How often do you post to your blog?

Blog, we are aiming for at least once a week, in depth posts and occasionally more. We also send out a newsletter with the best of the blog. And what we try to do is the challenge we pose to ourselves is there's so much information out there. And I mentioned at the beginning of the interview my own impatience. So I want to cut through what is typically said and find the stuff people aren't saying.

Oh, that's, that's excellent. Now I want to now transition. I don't want to walk away because the information that you're providing is so important and so critical and it's so on message for the time. And let's transition now to public speaking. So we've gone from the audio to public speaking. Any tips that you can share with anyone, whether they're a leader, someone getting up in front of a boardroom, or someone getting up in front of an audience. What are some tips that you can share?

Well, I think first of all, and this may only apply to a certain percentage of people, but I want to see them. I don't want to see perfect you. We touched on this earlier and there's an analogy that I think of a lot. I think of an analogy of a radio mixing board. Going back to, you said I was an anachronism for my newspapers. Now I'll do it with the old fashioned radio mixing boards as well. But if you picture one of those with two switches on the board and one of them might be labeled connection and the other one might be labeled precision, the first thing I would do is to make sure that those switches are calibrated properly, by which I mean that sometimes people are trying so hard to get it right that it reduces their connection with the audience so much that their speech can only objectively be called unsuccessful. And that by readjusting it and saying, I'm not going to worry about precision, which is not to say I'm going to be inaccurate. I assume you're going to be accurate. But the words I use in the moment to articulate any idea that may change. I may stumble over a word or two here or there, that's okay. But I am going to focus like a laser on making sure I'm truly connecting with the audience by coming across as fully present in the room, passionate about my topic, open to things that go wrong, being good humored when they do, being quick on my feet when I get a question I don't know and being willing to say, I don't know, I'll get back to you. That that is so much more important most of the time.

What does it look like to be too precise? What is the opposite of that?

You know, there's an old TV commercial that was, I remember from the, I think it was the late 80s, early 90s. It was about Memorex. Is it live or is it Memorex? And. And the idea was that the recording was so spot on that you couldn't tell the difference. And I kind of think that that's what it is. When it's too tight, you see the person having pressed play in their head and what's coming out is looking like it's from memory. And if anything happens that was not in their mental script coming in, they're going to be completely thrown and the audience will see it. People, very few of us, and I include myself in that group, are. Are gifted at being able to memorize a script and give it to our audience in a connected way that doesn't feel like it's memorized. And that just crushes any connection you could have with the audience. So I guess the first thing I would say, the first tip, is strive for connection, not perfection.

Oh, I like that. Now, I don't know if you're like me, but I see a lot of speakers. Do you have any peeves that you see from a speaker that makes you bridle a bit when they say it or do it? Well, for example, can I give you mine and then see if you have one?

Yeah, absolutely. Sure.

Mine is when a speaker walks on stage after the introduction and the first thing they say is, hello, everyone, or good morning. And the audience, you know, mumbles back, good morning. And they say, say good morning. You know, they chastise the audience right off the bat. So that's one of my peeves. Do you have one?

Well, that's a great one, because one of the things, and I insist on this of myself, and I tell the people who work with me this as well. Earlier in my career, if I had a bad gig, I would in my mind, start coming up with reasons the audience was bad. And I have now, I mean now, for many years. It is never the audience's fault. It is my obligation as a speaker to open them up. And if I fail to do that, it's on me. It's not incumbent on them to come to me unless they want to. It's my job to want them, to help them want to come to me. And so to your question of pet peeves, it would be giving up on an audience. It would be. I mean, what you just said about that cloying technique of almost desperately trying to recapture them. There's a great technique, and I think, you know, one of the things to be mindful about with any audience is that we are evolutionarily wired to notice movement and change, and we zone out very quickly to sameness. And so when you feel yourself losing an audience, the best thing to do is be mindful of that and break the pattern. If there's an established pattern that the audience has already identified, do something different. Try a different technique in a meaningful way to regain their attention. If you've been showing slides, maybe black them out. If you've been kind of giving a very big picture theoretical view, give a concrete story, maybe you're walking into the audience doing a show of hands question and asking somebody to elaborate on one of the answers. But it is your job as the speaker to do something, to re engage them constantly so that they want to hear what you have to say.

Oh my gosh, we're so synchronous. Because I was going to ask you that very question. One, how do you know when you've lost the audience for a public speaker and what you can do? So now you've told me what you can do. If someone is speaking, what are some of the tells that they've lost their audience?

There are certain body language tips. Obviously, loss of eye contact, things like tapping feet. Feet will signal to the speaker that they may have lost the audience. The other thing I think that is. So there's a somebody who in the body language research is well known, named Paul Aikman. And one of the things he labeled is what he calls Othello's error. And Othello's error, if you remember the Shakespeare book Othello, was that Othello had his wife, or maybe he murdered his wife, Desdemona, because he asked her if she was having an affair. She started crying. He interpreted her tears to be. To be a sign of her guilt. And what it really was was she was crying because she realized there was nothing she could say that would make him believe her innocence. And so that's what he refers to as Othello's error. And the reason I bring that up is I think it is a danger for speakers sometimes to look at an audience and assume you know what they're thinking simply from how they look. So the best thing to do in a very neutral way, not by saying you look bored, you're lost, you know, how can I reengage you? But to ask a neutral question like, can I ask you your thoughts about this? If you're not sure where they are, if you're not sure whether or not that you've lost them, check in with them. But check in with them without biasing the question that presupposes you have lost them. You might be wrong.

Oh, what a. What an excellent tip. Now, I want to end here. We've moved from media to presentation to public speaking. Are there any, any basic or general public speaking tips that you can share with the audience?

Well, the. The name of our company is Throughline, and it was inspired from a different. A couple of different places. One of the places I had seen the term and it stuck with me was from the. The head of the TED organization wrote a book about how to give a TED Talk. And in it he says, more than anything else, a successful talk needs a clear through line. And so that's the starting point. I use slightly different language. I call it the bright shiny object. The object you're holding out in front of the audience that is so bright and luminescent they can't possibly miss it. And I'll ask people, what is that for you? What's your bright shiny object? That sounds like such a simple question. And yet in my experience, the majority of speakers have not clarified that for themselves, or at least not as tightly as they could. And so it is worth spending time there to ask yourself that question out of every idea. If they remember one thing I said six months from now, what do I want that to be? And to gaining absolute clarity on that point. And then everything else you're going to say in the talk is in some way intended to reinforce that basic point or at least keep coming back to that core center of your narrative.

Oh, my gosh. Talk about through lines. I feel like there has to be a Brad and Molly road show. Everything you say I've either said or agree with, or some of the stuff that you bring that's new is so relevant. Brad, you are definitely on point.

Well, thank you. And it is nice to be speaking with a kindred spirit. And I would love to get on the road with you. I'm not a song and dance man, so I don't know if I could do that, but I certainly could speak from a stage with you.

Well, so let's talk about what does Throughline Group do? So tell my listeners about the rebranded business, but what do you provide for your clients?

Well, thank you. We do public speaking and media training, and we do it in two different formats. We do either the custom workshops we always have where we dig deep on an individual client, understand the kinds of questions or presentations they typically give, and develop a very tailored session for them. And we also offer open enrollment workshops, which is available and open to the public. We have a schedule of events on our website@throughlinegroup.com and they are two day workshops, two day public speaking and two day media training workshops that are we, here's our core intent. We don't want it to be one and done. We want the workshop to be the beginning of a journey that you'll have with us. We will follow through with you with 10 very in depth clients only reports with a free annual webinar with a free phone call you could make to us before your next interview or presentation. The idea really is to get away from dropping you off at the door the moment the workshop ends and having a much longer lasting relationship with you.

Oh, well, kudos to you for finding a way to update the media training model. That it's not just on camera, it's not just bringing out a roadshow and doing a workshop though that still is out there and there's a need for it. But also that online element and the through line element of staying there. It's not just one and done.

Yeah, thank you so much for recognizing that. That's certainly our goal and it's very satisfying as trainers to watch somebody make significant progress over time. Yeah.

And I also think there is a misconception that only large companies for profit companies need media media training or that these media trainers will only work with big companies. Not so true.

Well, yes, and this is not an original thought on my part and I wish I remembered the source. So if I, if you are the source, please email me and let me know. But somebody else used the terminology about ROIs, return on investment and how people in all sorts of organizations, small and large, obsess about ROI of any activity that they do. And so what this other person, who I cannot remember who it was, said, well, what's the ROI of your words? And, and it is such a provocative and interesting question that sometimes by phrasing something just a little bit differently or delivering it in a slightly different manner, it can be the difference between getting a deal and not getting a deal. So yes, I think it's relevant for everybody. And the number of outlets there are that are interested in interviewing people is greater than it's ever been.

Oh, that's true. And Brad, it was me. I'm the one that said that. No, I'm kidding. Kidding.

Well, if it was, my gosh, I would send you a thank you card with a gift card.

No, but no, I, I think that's a great way to say it. So, yeah, so whoever, whoever it is out there, the return on investment, you know, what do you get out of it, it's not just the training and then you're finished. What is the ROI now, Brad?

How could people find you throughline, group.com.

And then also on Twitter. So you're still Mr.

Thank you for that. Yeah, well, yes, at Mr. Media Training is my personal account. Our company account is at Throughliners and of course we also have a Facebook and LinkedIn page. We have videos on YouTube as well. If you just do a search for.

Through line and I, and I will tell my listeners as well is that if there's ever a debate or anything on television relating to campaigning the presidential election, tune into Mr. Media Training on Twitter because I think you're like me. We like to engage online when those big events happen.

Yes. That real time commentary is fun for me and hopefully for the people following.

Yeah. And also I want to remind the listeners again of your book, the media training bible. 101 things you absolutely positively need to know before your next interview. I highly endorse it. I think it's wonderful and I share it with my clients as well. When it comes to a very easy to read, easy to digest book, the true bible is your book, Brad. That's what I think.

Thank you so much, Molly. Those three years of nights and weekends getting those thoughts to paper have paid off. So I'm delighted that you enjoyed it.

3. It took you three years?

Well, you know, I had to run my full time gig during the week. So during the week I'm doing client work and running the business and then on weekends and evenings was my writing time. So yes, there were a lot of Saturdays I did not have back during that writing time.

Well, I'm writing a book. I have to talk to my editor. I'm doing mine in like two months.

Listen, I just may be a very slow writer so you know, good for you. I wish I had that pace.

No, but yours, no, but your bible though, the, the reason is, though it is so well researched and well thought out and you have a lot of anecdotal information in there about what you brought in in the past. And you're like me. I love those rip from the headline ideas because they're easy to digest, they're bite sized and they're memorable.

Exactly right. And once you see them, you can't unsee them them. You will see them happening on TV news, on viral video clips constantly once you start looking for them.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, Brad, thank you so much for taking the time to speak with me. I know everyone who has heard the sound of your voice in this interview took away some very relevant tips that they can use for their ROI and their business.

Thank you so much for having me, Molly, and continued success with you and the podcast.

Oh, thank you so much. And you as well. Thank you so much, Br Brad, thank you. And there you have it. An interview with, in my opinion, one of the best media trainers in the biz. Thank you so much, Brad Phillips, for joining me. And if you want more information on how you can work with Brad and the people at the Throughline group, just go to his website, throughlinegroup.com and you can find information for public speaking and media training training. So definitely check them out. Brad was nice enough to agree to be a guest instructor on my upcoming subscription service on how to help people become effective 21st century communicators. If you go to my website right now, you can get on a waiting list to find out when we're going to be ready to launch, which is in the next few weeks. So head on over to mollymcpherson.com learning lab. Sign up now. And as soon as we're ready to launch our beta launch, you will be one of the first people to know. So thanks again for joining me this week. I look forward to speaking with you next week on the Confident Communications podcast. Bye for now.

Sam.