49: How To Communicate So People Listen To You With Diana Peterson-More

Hey there.

Welcome to the Confident Communications Podcast.

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In our writing, speaking, body language, social media, interpersonal and public communications. So my mission is to help people be heard, seen and relevant in the modern age of communications. And today's focus is on organizational communications. My guest is Diana Peterson Moore. She has been a practicing employment lawyer, a corporate manager, a director, executive officer, and she has worked with a number of organizations and big ones, two well known ones as in hr, also in the legal space. And she is now a sought after consultant and guest presenter. And today's guest she is sharing her thoughts on how we can all be better communicators in turbulent times.

She provides a lot of valuable advice for the office, which is what we intended for the interview.

But throughout the discussion we applied the.

Rules to our personal lives.

So that was unintended.

But of course it was just as valuable. So take a listen. Hello Diana. Thank you so much.

Good morning, Molly. And thank you for inviting me. I'm thrilled to participate.

Well, the reason what drew me to you was the title of your book and the subject matter. So it's Consequential Communication in Turbulent Times, A Practical Guide to Leadership. And you have this great image of a rolling wave on the top. So tell me the idea behind the book and where that metaphor of the wave.

Absolutely, and thanks for asking. As you articulated, there's two pieces to the title, the latter being A Practical Guide to Leadership. And that's to underscore that my book is really a compilation of everything I've learned over a very lengthy career and has stories. I realize that adults, children, but adults, we learn through stories by others. The first piece, Consequential Communication in Turbulent Times, really I think focuses both on what's going on in society as well as how it's reflected in the workplace. The wave really speaks to natural phenomenon, one might say disasters, because we're having an increase in those as well, be they hurricanes, fires, tornadoes. So it's a compilation of where we are today, how it's reflected in the workplace, and then what are very practical, easy to implement, steps to turn it around.

Yeah. And just looking at your bio, we do intersect in a number of places. And one, when I saw the wave, just with my work with FEMA and working on hurricanes and natural Disasters. But also you worked in the media as an industry. Correct. And you were there when there was a pretty solid class.

I was a practicing employment lawyer and I was recruited in house to a a utility which is largely dominated by men who are also engineers.

And this is another place, by the way, Diana, where we intersect because I work with utilities as well, so we're speaking with the same one.

Then I moved to a large media company that was also male dominated. I went when I was at the utility company I fond of saying I made a meteoric rise to the glass ceiling. I had several positions fairly quickly and was elected corporate secretary at the age of 38. There were 18 officers, 17 men and me. And after a couple of years when I realized that what saying to my soul was how to motivate people, how to get people to be productive, I wanted to be in human resources. So I took a lateral to a large media company and that's what I did thereafter I went from one of 18 in a company of 18,000 employees to one of eight in a company of 56,000 employees. I realized that it was time for me to take the lessons learned and to share with others. So I became a consultant.

Well, in the time of this recording that you and I are speaking, I noted we're right in the week of a news story of GM workers who are striking. And what is striking about this story is here we have the first chair and CEO of a major automaker who is a female. So give me your thoughts on what's happening at GM in terms of a leadership perspective. Also based on.

Thank you for asking that question. Please note that I am not an expert per se. My information is really from the media, but kind of my 40,000 foot view is that sadly we have a woman CEO that is displaying male leadership characteristics far more than female leadership characteristics. And by that I mean my observation over time and working with several others is that men tend to be focused on the tyranny of quarterly earnings and the bottom line. Women are focused on the bottom line as well. However, the method by which they get there is through motivating employees. It's through delivering what employees want. I don't think one has to be a rocket scientist or Albert Einstein, whatever phrase you use to recognize that motivated valued employees are far more productive and are willing to give what it takes to meet that bottom line goal. So for me, it's my observation is that Mary Barra has an opportunity to exhibit more female leadership characteristics than right now. What I'm seeing is what I would Call more male leadership characteristics.

Yeah, that's so interesting. And I too am just a media observer, just from reading the stories and following it online. And what I'm noting that, you know, picketers, you know, people that used to picket a line 20 years ago is much different than it is today because they are still standing out front and they're picketing when they're walking out. But there's almost the sense of e picketing as well and where they're also heard on social media. And that is where maybe like a female leader might be more inclined to be more empathetic publicly and see that part of it. And I just know in my experience is when people feel like they're not being heard, that's what breeds anger and contempt. And maybe that is more of that female driven communication that she, and this is my opinion that either she lacks right now or perhaps she feels that she needs to do it, but she's under so much pressure that she can't. So it makes, it makes you wonder if you had to be a fly on the wall in that building right now at gm, what they're talking about.

I mean, to me it kind of gets back to that ultimate question, do the ends justify the means? I mean, a lot of people get into leadership roles and they feel like ultimately what they want to do is great, marvelous, wonderful and good for all. So they take a few shortcuts on the way there. My own personal ethical standards really forbade me from doing that, which is why after I left the large media company, I decided that the, what I would say, obsequious or brown nosing behavior I saw in many of my male colleagues, it just wasn't something I could do, period. I never did it, I was going to say any longer, but I never really did it. Miraculously, I rose even without doing that. But I realize that I might be called upon to do that again, which is why I made the decision to shift from frankly a very well paying corporate environment to a consultant who over time has done well, but certainly struggled at the beginning.

Right. And this formula of time plus experience gives us perspective. And I'm the same way. I mean, my brain is crystallized back in time in the 90s of what it was like working in a male dominated field and how as a female I had to navigate it much differently. And I haven't lost that, and that is definitely in my work today is that idea of the interplay, the communications. Now let's talk about some of the subjects that you bring up in your book. And the ones that, that really stood out to me. The first one is you talk about the platinum rule of communication. So explain what that's.

Thanks for asking. To me, this is an obvious reference to the golden rule. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. To me, the golden rule of communication is Diana communicates with Molly the way Diana wants to be communicated with. Which is kind of cool because it's well meaning and good intention. However, ultimately it's far more productive if Diana communicates with Molly the way Molly wants to be communicated with. I'm somebody who's verbal. I was. This used to bug me, especially in law school. I had to be in class every day to listen to what the professor was saying. And there were several students who never showed up, read the book and aced the exam. I wasn't that way. But there are people who get their information from reading, from contemplating, from self reflection. There are some people who take in information that has to be verbal and then followed up in writing. Others take in information and I liken it to a French horn and a trumpet. In my book, you know, the French horn is a large circular instrument and the air goes around and around and around and then the music comes out where with the trumpet it's lips to breath to music. I'm a trumpet and. But I'm communicating with a lot of French horns. So I need to adapt my communication style. That's really what it's all about.

Now why does someone, you seem to be leaning on the side of someone, having to flex for someone else's style? Now when you talk about communication, are we just referring to interpersonal communication, not how we communicate? You know, whether it's. It's email or texting. Is it just.

No, it's all forms of communication. I happen to focus on verbal because I tend to be verbal. But I have realized over time that I might have a verbal conversation with somebody. And I can see, you know, as a trained facilitator, you can kind of see the whites in their eyes. Are they understanding it? So I might say the same thing a couple of times and I'll say it another way. Then I'll ask, then I'll say, geez, I'm even confusing myself. Who wants to tell me what they think I'm trying to say? Or I might say, you know what, I'm not 100% sure I was clear. Could you go back to your office and send me an email or text message? So it happens in multiple ways of communication.

Now what about you had mentioned in A text or an email. What if you are working with someone who is in a place and time where they prefer handwritten letters or even faxes or an email? Are you saying that in order to get the job done or to achieve a goal that you have to bend even to their communication style? Even if it's typing out a letter to get a hold of them or should they be giving a letter?

I think it really depends upon what's the goal. The goal of communication is really to be understood. And in the workplace it's usually to get someone to do something that you want them to do. To me, if you're the boss, it's incumbent upon you to flex and to be flexible. I would say that about everybody. It doesn't usually happen. Usually the boss, everyone has to flex his or her style to meet the needs of the boss. But you know, to me it's about being strategic. What's the goal you're trying to accomplish here? And if the goal is to get someone to understand what you're saying and to get them to take action? To me, I try to follow the platinum rule. Now, mind you, when you asked about personal, I have three children, each of whom has said at one time or another, mom, you're just talking to us like your book. And I say, well, I try to practice what I preach, but I can tell you that in my consultancy and in the workplace, I do that. You know, it's not a big ethical dilemma for me personally. I have to veer away from handwritten letters because my handwriting is so bad. But. But I type things up, I fax things, I email, I text, all of the above.

Now, I noticed reading your book, at least my mind would go from workplace situations to personal situations. And you had mentioned how you communicate with your kids. Like, I knew I had to flex with my kids, so I have to do a group chat on a text because I know that's just. I know they'll see it because they're always on their phone anyway, so that's kind of bending to them. The next area in your book that resonated to me more on a personal side as opposed to professional, were the I statements that you talked about in the when you talked about an I compared to a you statement. Okay, Because I think many of us have people in our lives who speak to us in statements that start with a lot of you. You know, you did this, you are that. And the recipient is spring loaded to get very annoyed when people do that. So could you explain the difference or the importance and the differentiation, Molly, you.

Articulated it absolutely the way I would. When someone says to me, you don't understand. I try to exhibit calmness on my face, but boy, that gets my hackles up. And I often say, you know what? I can tell you what I understand. I'm the best person to tell you what I understand. Don't tell me what I understand, tell me what you understand. I happen to have a long standing friendship with somebody who is really on the brink of falling away because I was told I misunderstood something and I said, no, I kind of understood what you said. And this person's having a very difficult time apologizing. And I think it's very sad. However, I'm at a point in my own life that I feel pretty strongly about that. So I think it's important to accept responsibility for yourself because after all, the only person we are responsible for is ourselves. What we think, what we say, how we communicate, how we treat others, and to use I statements.

Can I ask this, Diana? Can I just go back to that one personal story? Because as you said it, I'm sure anyone listening has that one person where you get to a certain age and you think, is this really worth all the effort that I'm putting into this relationship right now? Now, in that instance, did it come down to someone who was more of a, you know, more of a you, you, you, you did this and you knew they were never going to change, so you're deciding that you might pull back a little. Was it about the language?

That's an excellent question. In this particular case, it's a long standing friendship, which over time I was aware that I was giving more and it was very equal. It's now gotten to a stage where the person is pretty needy and unwilling to recognize that other people, and in this instance me, have my own needs. And so it's kind of a balance. So it's partly the accusatory nature of you statements because personally, that's how I perceive them. And it's also just my understanding that I really want to have relationships that are far more mutual, where the give and take, it's never going to be 100% equal, but where there are times when I'm giving more and times when I'm receiving more, etc.

Yeah, and it's good. It sounds like I'm hearing kind of take a breath. And instead of reflexively starting a sentence with you, perhaps starting with I is going to lead to a better, a better dialogue.

And taking that to the workplace, let's say I'M the supervisor, boss, whatever. And I ask Molly to do something and Molly does it. Delivers because she wants to deliver. She wants to please me, but it's not what I asked for. Instead of my saying, you didn't understand, which is going to be upsetting, and also disregard your contribution, which my comment is, oh, I'm so sorry. I guess I miscommunicated. What I was looking for was X, Y and Z. So what I typically do in the workplace and consult, because I consult with a lot of people and boy, if I don't deliver what they want, they can fire me on the spot and hire somebody else. I will often have a chat with them and say, I think this is what I heard you say, blah, blah, blah. And they will either say, yes, no, or maybe. But it's far more important that I understand and deliver what they want because if I don't again, I'm fired immediately. Same thing in the workplace. So what I might do is I might say, molly, I'd really like you to provide me three options for changing the compensation system. And then I might say, you know, I'm not. I know what I'm thinking. Could you go back to your office and send me an email kind of with the broad strokes of what you might do, and we'll have a conversation and then there's a give and take conversation. Because my goal is for you to deliver three alternatives compensation systems. My goal is not that you fail. So I think a lot of it's in the approach, it's in the understanding, it's in the confirmation.

And there is a delicate navigation there too. Because if you state, I don't think you heard me correctly, it could border on passive aggression, which. Which we hear a lot. But if you have a. If you genuinely put the onus back on you and reframe it, rework it.

To help the other person, my comment would be, I'm sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. Let me try it this way. Whether in my head I was clear, Isabella, or not, it doesn't matter because the goal is for me to get Molly to do three alternative compensation systems. And if I don't get them, it doesn't matter who said what. My goal is not to anger you. My goal is to get you to be productive. And boy, oh boy, employees love it when bosses accept responsibility. And, you know, let's face it, it's not if we make mistakes, because we all make mistakes. And repeatedly throughout the day sometimes. It's not if you make a mistake, it's how you handle it.

Right. And kids do, too. Children love hearing that from parents that they've made a mistake as well. I know that goes a long way. Now, just quickly on staying on the I statement and the you statement for a moment. In your book, you discuss media interviews. So how can the you and the I.

You know, it's really interesting. When I was writing the book, I'm kind of a news junkie. I'm a political junkie is the truth of it. And so I listened to various news shows, and I noticed that I was listening to one one day, and it happened to have been a female who was the interviewer. And she asked very specific questions. And of course, as often as the game is played, frequently the political person was not answering the question. He was saying what he wanted to say, and she just said, oh, I didn't hear you answer the question. And that was very powerful. Equally, that same day was watching another news show, and there was a man who was saying, no, no, no, what you need to understand is X, Y, and Z. And of course, in my head I'm saying, don't tell me what I need to understand. I know what I need to understand. And it was just a difference. It happened to have been male, female that day. But this female person, now that she has her sea legs under her, I've noticed she's become far more aggressive in the way she asks questions. And I wonder, gee, was someone advising her to do that? Is she trying to model her behavior after her male colleagues? It's just interesting to me because it was far more effective when she said, I didn't hear you. In my mind, I didn't hear you answer the question.

Or Diana, perhaps she read your book, Consequential Communication, Turbulent Times. Oh, did you? Okay, but it. But she. But she. But I think this is so clear and it happens for so many of us, is you have that moment where you shift your language and you notice that it works. And so perhaps she noticed and watched it on replay and say, oh, I'm going to try this tact. I know I do. I know I've changed my communication style dramatically in the past two years because I know what's more effective and what doesn't work. Now, moving on to your next. Your next rule, which I. Which I liked. It's the idea of the two for one rule. Could you explain what that I think.

When giving feedback to individuals and I think again about myself, but others I've worked with, we're far less defensive, far more receptive if we feel Comfortable and relaxed, and we hear the good stuff. So it's two positives for every aw, shucks or every negative. I did this in the workplace where I asked somebody to write a memo about a topic. And I had a kind of a format which was, what's the issue? What are the alternatives that you considered? What's your recommendation and why? And so the person delivered the memo. In fact, a day before it was due, the person followed the format. I was really kind of surprised at the conclusion that the person came up with. So I said, gee, I really want to thank you and compliment you for getting this in a day early. That was really important. Allows me more time to take a look at it. And I like the fact that you followed our new format. I was a little puzzled by the conclusion. Tell me how you got there. And then the person was talking again. Whereas if I'd said, oh, this is all wrong, how did you, you know, what made you think that this was the right concl. And I got to understand what the person was thinking. And then I was able to say, oh, okay, did you consider this? Did you consider that? And in the course of the conversation, the person kind of came around to a different point of view. And I said, now I'm really glad you got this to me a day early, because I'd like you to go back and work on it again. And the person did. So it's kind of two positives for every ashoks and the power in that. I guess the other power is I. I do a lot of executive coaching, and I always start with some form of a 360. And one of the questions is on communication. And the typical response is, I always know when I screw up. I never know when I do well, of course, nobody likes to know when they screw up. So I said to the person who happened to have been a man, and by the way, when I started coaching, I thought I'd be working with far more females. Au contraire. I work with far more males. And I said to him, don't be phony and don't be fake, because people can smell a rat a mile away. But I said, surely in the course of the week, there's someone you can thank for having done something for you. And there's somebody you can give an attaboy or an atta girl to. Obviously not that phrase, but you can compliment. And I said, do it. Well, this guy turned it around so completely. And this happened to have been an entertainment company, which, by the way, there are many in Southern California and They're not always the friendliest, nicest place to, to work. All of a sudden people were clamoring to come work for him because he knew that they would get positive feedback. But the most important aspect of that, and I call it redefining success, it caused him to look for opportunities to be positive as opposed to negative.

Oh, that's good. So he needed to make a mind shift on just the idea of speaking up and giving someone positive feedback, you know, feedback. I do a workshop as well on feedback. And, and it's again, mostly men. And it's mostly men that are not accustomed to being told what they did, what they did incorrectly, or how they may be able to change. So again, when I spoke about delicate, you know, paths that get to an endpoint, but the way I look at feedback, just even for myself, because you had mentioned this in your book as well, the term constructive criticism and oxymoron, no one hears that word and say, oh, this will be fine then now that you softened it a little with constructive, no one likes that. But I find I swapped the word feedback for complaint. Like, I have a complaint, I have a gripe, I have a bitch, whatever it is, I will use the word feedback instead because I'm framing it as I'm going to give you information that's going to help you, not criticize you. So just in this world of reviews and business owners and now a lot of, and I think a lot of these people that I get in my workshops, they're not used to this idea of, wait a minute, on social media, people can give feedback about what we do and they can gripe about what we do. It's so new to them. But if you, but if you look at it from the lens of feedback, I think it's just easier to digest.

Absolutely. And I, I chuckled a little bit because I think you're right. Often it's the men giving the so called constructive feedback, which clearly in my mind is an oxymoron. And they've never received it. And as they're starting to receive it now, hopeful it will cause them to rethink how they deliver information to other people. And again, to me it's always about what are you trying to, what's your ultimate goal? Is your ultimate goal to berate somebody? Because if that's it, that is a big disincentive. If your ultimate goal is to get them to be productive, they're going to listen to you. If you are positive and if they trust you and if they know you have their best Interest at heart. Mary Barra. I hope you're listening.

I hope she is too. Okay, the two for one rule. Let's talk about timing. Does that make a difference in the rule how you give your two for one?

Thank you for asking about that. Many of us, and I call it the lizard brain, I mean, let's face it, we all came from whatever creatures we came from. We often have this, you know, speak first, think second. And especially when it comes to something that's negative, it's kind of the. Just get it out there, I think. And someone. By the way, a lot of this, again, is stuff I learned over time. I made a lot of mistakes. I learned from those mistakes and hopefully I share them with others so they won't make those mistakes. I was told about the 15 second pause, you know, before you respond, think for 15 seconds. It then became the in the cool of the evening. So it's, you know, in a long ago sitcom, all in the Family, Archie Bunker used to say to his wife Stifle, and for me, I have to say that to myself. So sometimes something will happen. I can tell I have a physical reaction and I know I'm upset and I just say, cool your jets, Diana Stifle. You can always say something later. You can always say, you know, yesterday I was really upset and let me tell you why, which is far more powerful than flying off the handle because you can be easily dismissed. So I think timing is very critical and also place. I mean, the old adage is praise in public, discipline in private. All of us, including yours truly, have made the mistake of in front of other people, dressing someone down, which is a big, big, big, as we would say, bozo. No, no. But again, one apologizes. I found myself in a situation of saying, you know, yesterday I flew off the handle and I apologize. I will do my best not to do it again. Power of apology, which, you know, a lot of people, I don't know why, I don't know what this issue is in our society, or maybe it's the human condition where we have a really difficult time admitting we made a mistake. But.

Oh God, isn't that the truth? There are definitely people in my life that struggle with saying sorry, or if they say it, they'll say it for the wrong thing.

Well, in this personal situation I was talking about, I finally get an email from this friend of mine who said, I regret having made the statement. And I'm thinking to myself, bs you only regret it because it caused me not to deliver what you wanted. So I said, That's a good start. What's your next sentence? And the last email I got was, that's my final statement. And I just wrote back and I said, you know, I'm really sorry that our friendship means so little. And again, I didn't say you. There was an implied you in there. I just said, I'm just really sorry because I am that our long standing friendship means so little. And that was it. And we'll wait and see.

Hey, Diana, I think it's time to ditch that friendship. I don't know, it just sounds like it. Thank you, Molly. Seems like a lot more work. I grant thee the permission to take it. Oh. So, Diana, so these are great tips. You have such good tips, you know, not just from researching your book, but also your years of experience. We're going to wrap up the interview portion and I highly encourage anyone, you know listening to the podcast to definitely check out the book Consequential Communication in Turbulent Times. A Practical Guide to Leadership. And, and I use the term leadership a lot. And when I speak to leadership, it's not just someone sitting at the top or someone in, you know, someone in the C suite, small business owners. It's, it's, it's a director. It's someone running, you know, volunteer, running a volunteer group. It could be, you know, someone running a family. It doesn't matter. You know, we all lead in different areas and we all need help and communications. Now let's, let's end it here. You have such, you have such wise counsel. I want to end with some tips and I'm wondering if you could give me like your top three workplace communication tips. So, workplace or life? But what are the top tips that you could share with someone to help in communication with other people?

And the overarching issue is really thinking about others before you think about yourself. I'd say first, be strategic. What's the goal of the communication? Are you trying to get someone to do something? What is it? And then subsidiary, what's the best way to communicate with them, which is the platinum rule over the golden rule. I also think, actually the questions we discussed today, the importance of using I statements, the importance of owning your own statements and taking responsibility for your own feelings and allowing other people to accept responsibility for theirs. And then last, very briefly, in this day and age of, you know, communication at the speed of light via the Internet and at our little thumbs, our fingertips, I just see too many people feeling like their communication online is anonymous and they just get stuck off their chest. And the old ADAGE used to be, never say anything in writing that you wouldn't want published on the front page of the New York Times, the LA Times, whatever your local newspaper is. And sometimes things that could be handled face to face, people hide behind, again, these seeming security and anonymity of online communication. And they say hurtful, even fighting words. And sadly, I think that we've seen an uptick in violence because of stuff that's on the Internet. So I would. My last piece would really be, you know, think first, communicate second, and if you're unsure, have somebody else read it and tell you what they thought the communication was. And that allows you. I do that. If I'm really ticked off at somebody, I put together an email and I have two or three people and I say, this is what I'm thinking of saying. And I accept their feedback because I know they have my best interest at heart. So there's nothing wrong with doing that.

That last tip is an excellent one because it happened to me about an hour ago and I was, Yeah, I was having a conversation with someone and she is, she's a business owner and she was reading an email to me that just got under her skin. And she was so annoyed by the tone of this woman in the email. And when I read it, I said, I'm gonna have to tell you, I'm just gonna give you my feedback on this at all. I don't think she's saying that at all. I think she just wants to know, you know, A, B and C. And she said, oh my gosh, I never thought about it that way. And so when you take out the personality, the person behind the email. Yeah. People will look at it much differently. And so when you summed up your, your tips, you were really summarizing our talk today and the importance of, of. I like the idea of the platinum rule of communication. It's almost like meeting someone halfway or meeting them where they are to help in that communication. The I statements versus the use statements are so valuable and so helpful. I mean, talk about you want to, if you want to diffuse a situation quickly, just look for I words and the U words and, and then the idea of feedback and how in. And how important it is to accept it. And especially in this day and age where more people, especially younger people, feel more comfortable giving their feedback and older generations bristle at hearing it. But really, because of where we all are now with social media, it's kind of changed how we communicate and share that feedback, the importance of it. So, Diana, anything else that you'd like to add as we head off for.

Communicating, I would say one last piece that somebody said that I think many of us, including me, need to follow. And it's the adage, be brief, be brilliant, be gone. Sometimes we just go on and on and on and on and on. And sometimes something shorter, sweeter, crisper, that might take longer to develop has more impact than droning on.

What a perfect ending to the interview. We will be gone. But before we are gone, Diana Peterson Moore, I want to thank you for taking the time to speak with me. I feel like over lunch we could have had a very long launch talking about our careers and what we learned from the past and how you and I could probably put on a very dynamic workshop together. But I love your topic and your book again, Consequential Communication and Turbulent A Practical Guide to Leadership. And Diana, I do want to share with my listeners that you do have a website, dianapetersonmore.com you can just google her name and you'll be able to find it. Or you can write In Consequential Communication and Turbulent Times because you have a very active blog on there as well. You do a lot of writing about about your work.

I try to do weekly blogs and I've been fortunate that my blogs have been picked up by Smart Brief and Lead Change and David Grossman's Weekly Roundup. So, yes, I write.

Oh, that's, that's wonderful. And that shows that blogs are not dead. I mean, that people are still reading a lot of blogs. So I like to hear that. Well, Diana, thank you so much for sharing, just sharing your wisdom and your thoughts on communications, especially in turbulent times.

Well, thank you for having me as your guest. I had a great time.

I want to thank Diana Peterson Moore.

For sharing her wealth of knowledge about how consequential communication in turbulent times can impact all of us in the workplace, but in our personal lives as well. You can find a link to her book Consequential Communication in Turbulent A Practical Guide to Leadership in the podcast Show Notes.

Now, if some of these stories hit.

A little close to home and you might feel like you need to brush up on some of your communication skills, why don't you go ahead and download my Rookie Mistakes Seasoned Business leaders make by texting 345345 so you can pull out your phone and text 345345 to get the free download. You'll get a link to Rookie Mistakes Seasoned Business Leaders Make. That's all for now. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast now go out and be confident. Communicators.