[BONUS] Rethinking Success with J. Douglas Holladay

Hey there. Welcome to this special bonus edition of the Confident Communications Podcast. I'm your host, Molly McPherson. On the podcast this week, a discussion about rethinking your life, specifically your success. I spoke with Doug Holiday about his book, Rethinking eight Essential Practices for Finding Meaning in Work and Life. Let me tell you, the quote at the top of the book on the COVID offers a real path to a life with greater meaning. A must read. Signed, Steve Case, co founder of aol. And that is the kind of book that Doug wrote. It is sprinkled with a lot of names that have been dropped throughout the book, but not for the sake of ego. It's not for the sake of who's who, but it's to illustrate these life lessons from a man who is examining his own life like Socrates. So Doug Holliday, he has experience working in New York in the finance sector, worked at Goldman Sachs. He also worked in the White House under Chief of Staff James A. Baker, also served in the State Department, and he's currently now an adjunct instructor at Georgetown in their MBA program. So you get the idea. This is a man who's lived an extraordinary life and he's met a lot of extraordinary people. And he spoke with me on the podcast about the different practices in his life for finding meaning. I thought the timing was perfect. Here we are midway into 2020, the pandemic is still with us. There is still a lot of tension and uncertainty in the air, and I promise you, after you listen to this podcast episode with Douglas Holiday, you're going to start rethinking about your life, but in a positive way. Take a list. Hello, Doug, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast to speak about your book, Rethinking eight Essential Practices for Finding Meaning in Work and Life.

Thank you. Great to be with you.

Molly, I'm going to tell you right off the bat, I loved your book.

Oh, thanks. Thank you.

I read it in one sitting, so it's one of those easy books. In a former life, when I would get on an airplane, this would be a book that I could read in one segment of a flight. But I did enjoy it because I think the timing of it spoke to me about this idea of rethinking something. So many of us are rethinking how we do everything at this point in this midpoint in 2020. So I think your book certainly resonates for the time that we're in right now.

I couldn't agree more. It's funny. I had a debate with HarperCollins about the title. I want it to be something really cool and sexy, like reimagined or something. But they liked rethinking. And now that we are at this point where everyone's rethinking everything and everything they thought that was certain has come crashing down. It's a great theme, you know, because it's a good time for us all to rethink, to reset, however you want to call it. Really focus on what really matters. Right.

And you touch on that so much in this book. And I will admit I was halfway through and as I was, as I was taking in each anecdote of yours. You are like the Forrest Gump of the Washington, D.C. new York corridor, certainly.

Oh, wow.

You've met a lot of people in your life and they weave into the story quite nicely.

It's been an honor to be on a life journey with so many people that are often, you know, disconnected and isolated because of the very success that everyone admires them for.

Doug, could you give me a quick elevator speech on who you are?

Yeah, I mean, I think my life, I'd break that in two parts. I feel like I have a life calling and then I have stuff I've done and the life calling kind of bubbles up whatever the setting. So, you know, just a thumbnail on me. I was born in dc, Was an athlete, went to the University of North Carolina to play lacrosse. Masters at Princeton, research degree at Oxford, came back, worked for James Baker in the White House. Then I'd lived in Africa for a little bit and knew a lot about South Africa and just have to be right place, the right time. And was appointed by the President to be a special ambassador, helping to sort out the challenges in South Africa while Mandela was still on Robben Island. So that was interesting for a 35 year old. And then I left that. And as I say to people, I've never been qualified for anything. But the next phase of my life was to go into investment banking. So I had a great opportunity, moved to New York City, worked with Goldman Sachs and the investment bank banking division, and then went into private equity. But all the time I was doing that, I was always doing initiatives, urban initiatives, mentoring, creating things, a Thousand Points of Light thing. I was part of the architecture of that.

You were part of the architect of the Thousand Points of Light?

Yeah, yeah. So a guy named Ray Chambers came to me when I was at Goldman Sachs and said, I just had dinner with the President and he gave this speech, talked about A Thousand Points of Light. A colleague of mine, Peggy Noonan, had written that speech and the White House, the switchboard was just exploding. You know, people said, that's the greatest idea, that there's all this goodness going on in little places all over. What's the policy initiative around that? So there really wasn't any. So Ray had dinner with President. President Bush, and then he. I didn't know Ray Chambers, but he's kind of the Great Gatsby of the philanthropic world in New York. And he called me and said, I heard about you. Could we have lunch? We had lunch. And he said, I'd love for you to help define what this would look like. So we decided to start with a mentoring initiative because we do know that's one intervention that really works. You know, and let's start with something that really works. So amazing. Goldman Sachs lent me to this initiative and so I moved from New York back down to Washington. That initiative continues. It's called Mentor. It's a galvanizing organization for all the mentoring organizations in America. So that continues. And then it was the, the heart of the Points of Light foundation, which grew and became bigger than life with Colin Powell and all these people, right?

Yes. And of course, we're talking about George H.W. bush and that administration. And I love that you just already, you're just dropping in. Well, Peggy Noonan, who was a colleague. So you have such great stories. So to get into the book, Doug, I know that you wrote this, that it's an elusive note, that this book is about the elusive notion of success. So clearly, just from your biography, any listener can certainly hear that you've experienced success, but this book really is a reflection on that. And that's what I found. So let's start with your first point or your first practice, and that's the illusions of success. And I like one of the questions that you started off with. You teach an MBA class at Georgetown, and you pose the question to your students, how many of you would say the lights have gone out for your parents, particularly for your father? So what is the purpose of that question?

The purpose of it is almost to scare these high powered, high octane achieving students to say, you know, if you want a life of thriving, that's what Aristotle called it. You want a life of thriving that's rich with meaning. You have to do some things differently than perhaps particularly your father did. So there's so many men that I know, and the data backs this up, that they're utterly isolated and lonely and yet successful. There was one interesting inc study a couple years ago. They pulled 3,000 CEOs of the 3,000, half self reported that they were lonely and isolated. Of that half, 67% said they were making bad decisions because they had no one in their life they could trust. So I say to my students, I said, how many would say, your light's gone out for your father particularly? And at least half raised their hand. And I said, I'm sure it's higher, but you don't want to out your dad. And I said, the purpose of this course is someday, when one of my three boys is perhaps teaching yours or vice versa, the same course on meaning that your son or daughter won't raise their hand because your life really rich with meaning. So that's almost, you know, intended to kind of shock them. But I've seen this movie with so many people who have everything everyone could ever want. Money, fame, notoriety, public positioning, you know, adulation. But they're lonely and disconnected.

Mm. And especially now in the pandemic with people, social distancing, that's going to be exacerbated even more as I move through that chapter. A part that. That resonated with me and where it intersects in my world of public relations and public Persona, is when you suggest to your, to your students that a point of identities with others is not the polished image and the accomplishments, the resume, if you will, but rather the broken parts or the dark sides.

That piece of vulnerability, absolutely. See, I think the problem with most leaders, and this is where they get in trouble when they make a mistake, they think people want them to be perfect. Nobody wants you to be perfect. It doesn't exist. They want authentic leaders. So I remember this great guy I knew, he was in the Senate, Harold Hughes from Iowa. He graduated from high school, was a truck driver, but had a voice like, God, it was unbelievable. Very liberal Democrat from Iowa. And when he ran for governor, this was his platform. He would get up there, and he was an alcoholic. And he stood up there one time and he said, you know, it was in the middle of a debate, and he said, you know, my opponent has said unfairly that I've been in jail and in six states for drunken disorderliness. And he said, that's a damn lie. It was actually eight states. And so, you know, Harold became a good friend. Very intimidating, but it became a good friend. I was a young guy, but I just loved his authenticity. People were drawn to that. And he eventually ran for president, but he was very liberal and never didn't have a chance. But people reelected him for governor. Then he came to the Senate and It was just a remarkable person. So I have seen that story. You know, our point of identity is not how rich we are, good looking, famous, whatever. There's always a faster gun in the West. And if you play that game, you're always going to be isolated and you're never going to feel like you belong. But if you're true to you, you will always belong. Right.

But isn't it interesting, you know, Harold Hughes, who went on to work for Senator Muskie, and at a time when you think of, you know, the Muskie, you know, the letter, when he was breaking into tears, how Muskie's vulnerability and authenticity hurt him at that time. But now, if that were to happen in the year 2020, Senator Muskie's story might have turned out a little different.

Yeah, I think you just got to be you all the time. And it can't be an episodic thing. You know, just. We all know that. I remember this great story about Abraham Lincoln. He was at the equivalent of a press conference and they were hammering him. And, you know, he was not eastern educated. He was gangly looking. He wasn't that articulate by the standards of debate of the day. So he's standing in front of the press at the White House, and One journalist says, Mr. President, how do you withstand this withering criticism day and night? And Molly, he paused and he said, I'm so much worse than they could ever know. And I thought, wow, what a great line. And I've thought about that myself when people are critical of me and all that said, I'm so much worse than this person could ever know. It's so ridiculous to try to be defensive. And, oh, I'm the, you know, we have a lot of broken stuff. We've made a lot of mistakes. You know, second starts is what we're.

All about and where you can start that. So moving on to the next practice, which is to knowing your story, you mentioned in the first practice, Aristotle, you moved on to another philosopher and talked about Socrates here in this chapter. And the unexamined life is not worth living.

Yeah.

Knowing who you are helps who you've become, Correct?

Absolutely. And you know, it's funny, a few years ago, Peter Buffett's a friend of mine, Warren Buffett's son, and he hit me with this line. He said to me one time, says, doug, we're all born into someone else's story. And he said, I didn't ask to be Warren Buffett's son. So he said, here I am at Stanford, sophomore year, majored in finance. The only reason I got in here is because of my last name. Then my father famously announced he wasn't leaving us any money. That kind of sucked. And then he said, you know, I didn't like what I was doing. And then my mother called up a few months later and said my grandfather had died, left me some money. $92,000, he said. That day, I got in my car in Palo Alto and started driving to New York. The rest is history. You know, follow my passion to be a musician. Did part of the scores for Dances with Wolves with Kevin Costner, and that's been his story since, and he found his way. But it's very difficult when you are. When you have a strong parent or expectations, to really find your voice and find you. But that's really important. And I have students all the time that come to me that says, you know, my parents want me to be this and that. I said, you have a choice. Live their story or live your story.

Mm, those are good words.

So.

And again, I love how you just. You weave these names in here in these stories, and your anecdotes are so. Are so telling in this book, your third practice about maintaining relationships. So this is now the connection between people, and there's a good way to connect and a not so good way to connect. Why do you dislike the term networking?

I think networking cheapens the richness of human relationships. It reduces it to a commodity. I'm using you to get where I need to go. What's amazing to me, I'm about ready to teach my course again. And I bring in these rock stars from all over the world. The chairman of Johnson and Johnson, and on and on, and they say, how do you know these people? I said, if you invest in people's life, what you reap is what you sell. But if you are using people, they know it. And so somehow you have to pivot on that. In a society that's teaching you to use people, you've got to be the uncommon person that serves and really lays your life down for others. So the relational thing is really important. I tell my class, too, you know, after between 30 and 45, you start shedding relationships. According to the data, if you're fortunate, by the time you're 45, you might have one or two. But you're so busy building a life and a family and all this stuff, so you just tend not to invest anymore in those things that matter to. And there's a loneliness epidemic. Vivek Murthy, the last Surgeon General, identified not Smoking, not obesity, but loneliness as the major health crisis of the modern era. And it's unbelievable when you think of how lonely people are today. And as you rightly pointed out, Molly, it's only exacerbated by this quarantine. We don't. And so many of the mediating structures are gone. Great book by Robert Putnam at Harvard called Bowling Alone. He wrote it in the 90s, and it's even worse. He said, Two metaphors for our problem are bowling and PTA meetings. It used to be bowling leagues were really important in communities. They're pretty much gone now. And PTA attendance is way, way down. So these mediating structures, this social fabric, people are more and more lonely, and technology has only exacerbated the problem.

Right. Yeah. I was thinking, as you were saying that I said, where did I just read that? About the bullying and the pta? Of course, it was your book. I remember that from the. You know, I like that you. You speak about. The idea of networking is not about helping each other out. Like, you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours. It is being very genuine in helping someone. It's more about the proactive rather than the reactive. So your next action about gratitude and placing gratitude in these relationships as well, how important it is to. To simply say thank you.

Yeah, that's an important part of it. The other is just to be grateful every day. Like this morning. I have certain practices. I don't do them every day, but I did it today, where I will just pause and I'll write down three to five things that I'm grateful for, and I literally write them down the end of the year. I have hundreds and hundreds of these, and they're so powerful. And neurologists say that gratitude affects the brain. We think differently. You don't have to make a list of the stuff that isn't working in your life. We all know that we live with these fears and disappointments and regrets. But you have to create space for the little things. Hey, wow. I had a cup of dark Italian roasted coffee. Wasn't that cold? The sun's out. I'm feeling pretty good today. But to write those things down, the little things, they change the way you think. You become what you think about. Molly, a lot of people don't realize that. If you wonder why you're negative and sarcastic, what are you thinking about all day? Start the day with gratitude. It will change the way you view others and yourself and your world.

I agree with you. Now, I will admit I have been hearing for years how you need that very Oprah esque statement of, you have to get a journal. You have to write down your gratitude journal. And I always thought it was just a sales pitch to buy someone's journal, but you're absolutely right. Yeah. That neurology of it is actually physically, it's no different than a to do list. Right. If you mentally and physically write something down, it's going to stick a little differently.

Absolutely. And it slows you down. I urge you people not to do it using your computer. Write it down. You have to go slower and you have to really think about it now.

And because I work in the world of response and helping people craft and deliver responses at the right time with the right channel, especially if they're in a very sticky position in their job, either personally or professionally. You had highlighted in your book when you were speaking about President Reagan, when he was leaving the office and his last words. And when we were talking about gratitude, I was drawn to it, of course, because it was a public statement and how he in closing said that he wanted to thank the American people for giving me the great honor of allowing me to serve as your president. I now begin the journey that will lead me into the sunset of my life. Not only was that statement, that final address, a well written one, certainly, but the fact that it was written with gratitude, and as I read that, it struck me that we don't hear that as much in people's statements or response, that gratitude doesn't come out like it did.

No, you're right. And you know the predicate for what you just said, Molly, the beginning of that is he wanted to come forward and say that he's been diagnosed with Alzheimer's. So here he is talking about his only regret is a burden that's going to put on the love of his wife, Nancy. And then he just says, thank you for what you've done as I head into the twilight. So, I mean, it's really quite heavy when you think about being. It's one thing to be gratitude, you know, when you got a raise and you've got a good love life and everything's going on. But how about when the medical diagnosis is not a great one? You know, this is reality. So stuff shows up and gratitude enables us to navigate this. Because I have a word, I say to people, then what is your word? Mine is perspective. And part of why I love going to East Africa at a young age and on is it puts all of your problems in perspective. You think you have a problem? Are you kidding me?

Yeah. Certainly, certainly. Okay, then. I love how these practices just kind of. They just weave together. Number five is learn to forgive and serve. You put two qualities together, and you start with a quote with Confucius, before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves. So share, share, share the benefit of being someone that understands the importance of forgiveness.

Yeah. I mean, not forgiving, it's been said, is like drinking poison and thinking the other person's gonna die. It's stupid and doesn't work. It doesn't work. So, you know, and to go back to your story, Molly, the whole idea of story, some of us grew up in families where we never forgave. We. We still hate Uncle Charlie because he didn't show up at my son's wedding. You know, you have these crazy things. Get over it, get over it. It's too short. It's not worth it. And forgiving is a discipline, learning to let go. And some of us have had the benefit of growing up in families where forgiveness was easily given. But if you weren't, you got a challenge because you're always going to be, you know, trying to even the score. And I agree with you, Molly. We're in a grievance society right now, and the political leadership is stoking that crazy thing that resentments, and I didn't get enough, and I'm this tribe or group, and I deserve this. You know, it's just like, wow, you know, when are you going to let it go? It corrodes. It does something toxic to your soul. So this is why, you know, Jesus, I love when I. When you look at him on the cross, whether you're religious or not, here he is on the cross being crucified. He looks down to the people that are crucifying him and killing him. And he says, father, forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing. Who's in charge? When you forgive, you're in charge. When you have grievance, you're not in charge. You're always blaming. You're always wanting to settle schools.

And the success comes from the letting go. That's what you. You actually feel it. And you can move on and find the greater good, which is next in your journey for practicing is number six, defining success and failure for yourself. Now, this chapter resonated with me because when you mentioned earlier, everyone has a word. A word that I tend to fall back on a lot for myself is resilience. It's always working through things, not around them. Like, I get dirty, I get messy, because I Always feel that that's how you learn. And I tell my kids that you never make mistakes. They're all just lessons that you've learned from. And so this chapter spoke with me. It spoke to me. And I like here how you talk about determination and that inner defiance that when you, when you mention and look at truly successful people, many of them come from a place of stressful experiences or they had a hard scrabble Life. You mentioned LeBron James, Harold Schultz, Oprah Winfrey. So speak about that resilience characteristic and how it can help you define your success.

Yeah, I think all these things fit when you know, so many people are ashamed of their past and what happened. When you embrace who you are, you know, life becomes easier. We all were born into a story. None of us asked to be born into that story. So forgiving ourselves when we make mistakes, when you feel insecure, give voice to those things, start to bring them out when you screw up. When you do all this stuff and you say I don't belong, you know that that whole, the social psychologists have found this whole imposter syndrome that most people that are successful think that they don't deserve it and they're going to be called out as they're not smart enough, they're not a good enough leader, all that. So everybody is feeling this. But the problem is we think some people someplace have really arrived and they got it right. I have not met them yet and I know a lot of these kind of people and none of them have got it yet. They all feel like they are either lucky or they're not up to it. They, they somehow it happened and they can't figure it out. So, so I think to really embrace your failures and kind of use them the way Senator Hughes did, said, you know, things you're embarrassed about, embrace them, you know, instead of trying to hide from them. People are drawn to authenticity, period, not perfection.

Yes. And you also speak about in this chapter is the impact of stress on mortality. And you excited a talk, a 2013 TED talk from Kelly McGonigal discussing that when people go through major stressful experiences such as a personal financial crisis or a divorce, that it increases the risk of dying by 30%. But those people who experience the stress of caring for others, there's virtually no stress related, increased risk of dying. What does that say about stress to you?

Yeah, there's a good stress and a bad stress. And I think part of it is like everything. It's learning how to manage this. And again, you know, the thing I found Molly, there are practices that help. There's a reason why for 3,000 years, people have been meditating. They see deep breathing as a way to release the stress. This is why I say the best thing you can do for yourself, for your company, for your kids, for your family, for your country, whatever it is, is to become the best version of you. So get those practices. Build them into your life. They're knowable and they change you. You'll live longer, you'll thrive more, you'll have more fun. It'll be a blast. But you have to really do the work. Most of us have grown up blaming others and thinking we have to fix other things out here. I just. I finished this book a couple months ago by, I think, one of the leading psychiatrists at Johns Hopkins. He said in the book, he said, after all my years of practice in psychiatry, I want to tell all the parents here a question, something. And he said, all the things you've told your kids, none of those matter. All the teachings, all the little quotations, all that. There's only one thing that matters. How you lived. That's going to be the. So, in a funny way, everything comes back to a simple thing. Become the best version of you. Socrates said this. Aristotle said this. Jesus said this. All the great thinkers understood that. The starting point is inside. It's almost like this great thing. In the 30s in London, the London Times asked 100 leading people this question, what's wrong with the world? G.K. chesterton, the literary great critic and great thinker, wrote his answer back on a postcard. He said, what's wrong with the world? He simply said, I am, in other words. Yeah. The starting point is to realize it's not the world. It's not the liberal, not the Democrat. It's not this, it's not that. It's me. And I'm. That's the place. It's not my wife, it's not. Not my kids, not my husband. I mean, it's so easy to want to blame and not look within. It's a discipline to look at our lives every day and say, what did I do wrong? What do I need to get right? Who do I need to forgive? What do I need to ask forgiveness for? It transforms you.

So, moving on to the next practice, when you mentioned discipline, I have to admit, Chapter seven, inviting risk into your life. The name that is dropped at the beginning of this chapter was Michael Kennedy. So you knew Michael Kennedy. You related that you had breakfast with him. Now, Michael Kennedy, of course, the son of Robert F. Kennedy. And Ethel Skakel, I wasn't surprised at all that in your book, in chapter seven, you'd say, oh, so I was having breakfast with Michael Kennedy. And the fact that it was under risk, I thought, I have to find out where he's going with this now, because the Michael Kennedy piece, when Michael Kennedy died, he tragically died at a young age in 1997. And I remember when it happened because I was in Boston. I was at a party. It was a New Year's party. And then the report came out, and I think I was the first one who saw it. And I don't know if it was on television. We certainly didn't have cell phones in our hands at that time that said that Michael Kennedy had died in an accident. I don't think they had. They had the details. And I said, well, it was a skiing accident. I remember it was a party. I probably had a pop or two in me. But he died from a very risky, risky move of playing football. And of course, I'm in Boston. So we, you know, we heard all of the press about it, that they were playing football. It was very risky. Typical Kennedy behavior, right, that it's not surprising. And so many Kennedys. Oh, my goodness. I mean, even up to the last one, Kathleen's daughter, so sadly, tragically lost, you know, her and her son Gideon, you know, drowning on that canoe out in. Off of Maryland, the coast of Maryland. Tell me how risk and that breakfast with Kennedy comes together.

So one of his. So the backdrop was, some of you might recall or not, but he had. There was an alleged affair he had with a babysitter that exploded into the public consciousness. And course, because he was a Kennedy, and I knew one of his cousins, and his cousins, you know, had him come down with him to New York, and he and I had lunch together, and we were just talking about it. I was aware of how intelligent he was, but, you know, even then I was. He wasn't chastened. He was almost, like, still exhibiting risky behaviors there. So the next, I invited him to join me for a breakfast that I've had with the legendary John Whitehead, former chairman of Goldman Sachet Sac. It happened to be that it was the next morning with these leaders, and we just explore the meaning of life together once a month at the Lynx Club in Upper east side of New York. So the guy that was leading that morning was Ralph Larson, the chairman of Johnson and Johnson. He was leading it on death. And I remember Michael was sitting there, and I said, michael. And it was so inappropriate. What I did. But it kind of blurted out. I said, michael, your family is acquainted with death. You know, your, your uncle was assassinated, your father was assassinated. How do you make sense of death? And he was very philosophic about it and said, you know, it's just a part of our life. We've seen so much tragedy. And then, you know, we vowed we're going to stay in touch. And I was trying to just support him through this craziness. He left, flew to Aspen. The next day he was dead. They were throwing a football as they were racing down Aspen Hill and skiing and he hit a tree. And I was just struck by, you know, there's a good kind of risk and a bad kind of risk.

That was a bad kind of risk.

That was a bad kind of risk. But the good kind of risk, you know, when you look at, you know, when people look at and ask people at the end, what do they regret the most? Number one is typically, I wish I had taken more risks. They had regrets about the things that. Not the things they did, but the things they failed to do. They were afraid. They let fears dictate how they lived their lives.

Mm. Yeah. The Michael Kennedy story I have aside, I agree with you on the risk and I. It's such a key critical point to bring out is, you're right, there is good risk and there is bad risk. And I don't want it to go away without mentioning that the alleged affair that you mentioned started with a 14 year old babysitter. So he was taking much heavier risks than the average person. But he gave you a very reflective response on, of course, being a Kennedy. So moving to your next practice of number eight is living an integrated life. And what I liked about this concept is you said there's. You prefer the term integrated over balance. We always hear about, oh, we have to balance our life. We have to balance our life. Like there really isn't such a thing. But you can have an integrated life.

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, I just reject the notion of a balance life life. I just don't think it's possible, particularly for high octane people that are trying to get stuff done. But I do think there are seasons in our life. When I worked in the White House staff, if you left at 9pm at night, people would say, oh my gosh, you're working a half day. So it was like, but you do that for two or three years and then you leave. But if you were doing that your whole life, it would not be healthy in any way, any matter. So I think There are seasons when you're all in seasons, when you could have a different rhythm on these kind of things. But the integrated life, I think more and more what I'm excited about are more and more people I see it with the younger generation are saying, I want everything to fit in my life. I don't want to compartmentalize my life and say, okay, this is what my father and mother did. We're going to make a lot of money. Then someday we'll be happy. Will you become something along the way? Somehow you have to integrate meaning into life now. And the data is interesting. The data suggests a lot of young people say they would take less money if they could have a life where they could really integrate things. They could be proud of the company they work for. They could have time for exercise, for reading, for the arts, all that stuff. They take much less money. They want a life of thriving. They don't just want this horrible life. They absolutely hate with the idea that someday I'm going to live the life I wanted to live.

And so many people can see that in terms of where that line of demarcation is with the generation, certainly that the younger generations appreciate a more integrated life. The other statistics that you cited, the statistic that you cited in the book that really spoke to me and I felt like it just resonated for our time right now, especially in light of Black Lives Matter and racial inequality, is you cited research showing that 71% of millennials want CEOs of large companies to use their positions for activism, compared to 46% of baby boomers. And I was so grateful that that stat was in there because it speaks so much directly into of which leaders are the ones who spoke out about Black Lives Matter, who spoke out about racial equality for people and professionals of colors and the people who choose intentionally not to speak out.

Yeah, you know, it's. Martin Luther King said something really interesting. He said, we're not going to remember the criticism of our enemies. We are going to remember the silence of our friends. So I think people are starting to realize they have a platform. Look at what's happened with the Washington Redskins forever. People have said to Dan Snyder, the owner, you know, this is not sensitive to people, you know, that are Native American. Guess what? FedEx and about five other sponsors said, as long as that's the name, we're out of there. Guess what? That name is going to change, I promise you. And so I think the idea of an integrated life is using the leverage you have for the greater good instead of Always saying, oh, it's all about charity and it's philanthropy. No, the engine that can change America now is corporate America and these other avenues. Larry Fink did that at blackrock. He said part of our criteria in investing in these companies is the biggest fund in the world. At BlackRock said part of our criteria is not just financial metrics, it's metrics of social good. What are you doing with the platform you have, Mr. CEO and company?

Isn't that true? And I don't know if you're like me. I mean, you and I are in different seasons of our lives, you know, sisters in different generations. But I am noticing more than ever before when people are speaking about, you know, just the last three months, two lightning points. Should you wear a mask or not? Is this a hoax or not? And then also racial issues. The people, to me who spend more time explaining away the reasons why, when they would rather cite an argument, a newspaper article, they can't quite recall something a doctor said. When people speak to metrics and numbers and data, as opposed to speaking from the heart and what is the greater good? To me, the response is so clear to me. I know exactly where they're going to go. When you respond in any type of response, when you respond from the heart and humanity, it's easy. It's easy to do the right thing. But when you are relying on statistics and what other people are saying and citing other and other studies, so on and so forth, then you get into trouble. But that's my opinion.

No, I think you're right. I think we're in a post truth era, sadly, where facts don't matter. And it's almost like you look at this, we did pretty good at the beginning, this COVID 19 thing. Then all of a sudden people said, huh, I want to go back out. I want to go to bars and all. And guess what? I'm just going to decide that that reality doesn't matter. Whatever the science says, it doesn't apply to me. It doesn't matter. That's the fruit of a postmodern culture that doesn't take facts or science seriously. I think it's one of the biggest challenges of our day.

Oh, without a doubt. It's taking fact, conflating facts, throwing in some opinion. Without a doubt. It is a, it's, it's a struggle, I think, navigating for anyone, but at the same time, time for as muddled of a world that we live in right now, I have never seen so clearly.

I think, well, and you know, it's funny, I. People say that, you know, I've been asked on this, with this book, you know, what. What do you think a leader should be? Why during this time? And I said, well, certainly they have to be authentic, but the other is they have to be grounded and believable. Now, you think of the context for Winston Churchill. All of Europe had fallen. The latest was the Vichy government had capitulated to the Nazis. This little speck of an island, England. They're all alone. The US had not come in there. Winston Churchill says, we're going to fight them. We're never, never, never going to give up. We'll fight him in the air, on the land, on the sea. And guess what? He was believable. Because when that moment came, he had developed a chest of believable acts. And the small thing, the problem with our leader today, in my humble view, is when you have lied about so much, when the big things come, who's going to believe you? Why should we believe anything? And when you say, you know, we've solved the. The virus is over, it's just such a lie. And so nobody believes anything. So we're really rudderless. This is the moment when we need leaders in the world and it takes courage and guts to step forward. But this is why you're elected. When I was on the White House staff, there's usually two or three times during the course of a presidency where it's all in. That leader has to stand alone and say, okay, this is real and this is why I'm here. It isn't for the little piddling things. This is why it matters.

Certainly, certainly. And I don't feel as if people maybe, at least in our current leadership, where they're thinking about legacy or what people will remember them for. When you started speaking about Winston Churchill, his quote of I'm prepared to meet my maker, whether my maker is prepared for the great ordeal, meeting me is another matter, which. That's always a great quote from Winston Churchill, but the idea of leaving a legacy. In the past, you know, if you were to read an obituary in the New York Times, it would be, you know, written in advance and it would speak to all of the highlights and all the nicer points of someone's legacy.

Yes.

But nowadays you're to going, going to. You're going to hear about all the road bumps in someone's life as well. Your last practice of leaving a legacy and how you should do it. You had the quote from, and I know he's a friend of yours because you managed it before. You've mentioned it before, but I remember this when David Brooks had said, you know, should you live for your resume or for your eulogy?

Yeah.

Where are we right now? You know, with people and let's say, leadership, you know, let's talk about baby boomers right now and the idea of leaving a legacy.

Yeah. There was a book written in 1960 by Harvard professor David Reisman called the Lonely Crowd. And he talked about, in essence, we all have audiences we live to please. And maybe if you're a Hasidic Jew in Williamsburg, New York, you dress a certain way, you have a certain politics, 90% of your life is already circumstances. Same with the Mormons, same with all these. So there are certain audiences we have. And the problem today, he says in this book, in 1960, the thing that troubles him as a social psychologist looking at parents today, is they don't care whether their kids do the right thing. They want them to be liked and to be popular. And that's in 1960. And boy, that's even exacerbated more. So you look at these apps that young girls are using now, for example, and young boys that at 10 years old, you can change the way you look on an app. We're already teaching people, I'm not enough. I've already got to change. So you have this funny thing. And now you look at the Congress now, oh my gosh. And a lot of these guys are my friends, men and women. And I said, do you really want to be here this long? Well, don't you want your legacy someday to sit with your grandchildren and say, you know, I took a stand and it cost me something. Remember talking to a bunch of congressmen? I said, how many of you remember Elliot Richardson? And only a few did. I said, he was Attorney General under Nixon. Nixon asked him to fire the special prosecutor, Archibald Cox. He was putting the heat on the White House, and Richardson refused and he resigned. I said, do the right thing and get frickin fired. Wouldn't that be a better legacy than just saying, oh, I was in the Congress. Isn't that nice? Who cares? And that's when I get back to this idea. Who's your audience? And the Quakers had this wonderful way of thinking about, they said simply this, we should live to please an audience of one. Whether you define that audience as God or yourself, and being satisfied with yourself, at the end of the day, that's who we are accountable to.

Those are good words, prescient words for this time as people head into the future. Doug, if I Had to ask you one takeaway that sums up your book to leave people with about rethinking success. Eight essential Practices for Finding Meaning and Work in Life. What would it be?

Wow. I think I would say everything you've been taught about what really is going to make you happy is an illusion. I contrast happiness and meaning. Happiness is circumstantial. I got a raise. I just bought a beautiful house. All these things. Meaning never goes away. You can have meaning in a Nazi death camp. According to psychotherapist Viktor Frankl. If you doubt me on that. Children. I have three boys. Is raising kids a happy thing to do? Well, yes and no. Some days it's happy, some days it totally sucks. Is it the most meaningful thing you'll ever do in your life? Absolutely. There's a difference. So I'd say the biggest thing. Don't chase happiness. It's an empty road. Find meaning. It is deep, profound. Whether you have one month to live or 50 years to live, you can find meaning in the darkest times, in the darkest places, and that's real freedom.

Doug, thank you so much for sharing some of the wisdom from your book that I found that was such a delightful read during this time. It was a perfect book for an imperfect time, but it certainly spoke to me. But thank you for taking the time to speak.

Thank you, Molly. You're good at what you do. Thank you.

Well, thank you. I'm grateful that you told me that. And the book truly is wonderful. So I'm going to have a little link in the show notes for the listeners to download it and purchase it themselves. So, Doug, all my best to you. Thank you for the. For the gift of knowledge and the. And the gift of rethinking how we look at success.

Thank you. I really appreciate it. Bye. Bye.