How to Gain (and Retain) Your Fans: The Business of Sports

It's Tuesday, October 22nd. And tonight, depending on when you are listening to this episode, is game one of the World Series. The Washington Nationals against the Houston Astros. And I am all in on the Gnats, the Baby Sharks. Let's go Nats. Stay in the fight. But what a time of year. Great time for baseball postseason. We're well into the NFL season, we're kicking off the NBA preseason and, and now we're already into the NHL season. So it's a busy, busy time of year to be a sports fan. Which is why I wanted to bring in a sports minded guest to discuss sports. Yes, from a fan point of view, but also from the business of sports. The sports industry is a $70 billion plus industry. There is a formula that works and that all business leaders can learn from. My guest today is Emmy award winning supervising producer Stu Kirschenbaum, who's worked over 20 years in network sports television and is now the owner and executive producer for Keystone Films. Stu and I work together with some of his industry clients, which means we get to chat a lot and I get to make fun of his Phillies when my NL team Nats route them on their way to the World Series. But Stu is on a winning streak when it comes to strategizing with his clients now mostly in horse racing, about how to navigate the broadcasting, the digital and social media of the sport to increase the bottom line, how to gain and how to retain your fans. The sports business is not unlike any other business. You need to keep your multi generational fans happy even when they're temperamental, to stay relevant in the always shifting environment. Sports fans and fans of building your business, you will want to listen to Stu's insights into the sports business and into the money on deck. Stu Kirschenbaum. Hello Stu, and welcome to the podcast.

Hi Molly, thank you for having me.

Now I sound a little, a little down, but really it's more fatigue after watching my Nats.

Yes.

Clinch. Sweep the St. Louis Cardinals last night. So we're, yeah, so we're recording on Wednesday, October 16th. But of course the evening of the 15th was just made for fantastic baseball. Would, wouldn't you say that as a Phillies fan?

Yeah, I mean there's some Bryce Harper blowback which I, I understand, I, I totally understand that. But congratulations to the Nats. They played a great series and whomever they face in the World Series will be a lot of fun.

Yeah, poor Bryce Harper. He is getting grilled. Bryce Harper right now is trending on Twitter even though he plays for the Phillies and he's sitting at home. He's trending at the moment. Now, Stu, you're a long time, not only sports fan, but of course, we'll find out in the interview your long service to the industry. Go ahead and make a prediction, a World Series prediction.

Oh, I think the Nats just could be the team of destiny. I'd say Nats over Astros and six.

Nats over Astros. So you're saying no to the Yankees. It's going to be the Astros.

Well, you know, as we speak, the astros are up 2 to 1. And you're going to have to get through Garrett Cole again. And you're going to have to get through Justin again. And there's another fellow by the name of Granke. I hear he's pretty good, too.

Well, now, do we think there's going to be a rain out?

Well, that I don't know. Weather forecasting is not my fourth day, but if you believe the weather forecasting, it does look pretty great.

Yeah, and it does. And that's something of a predictor, too. In terms of who, when I agree with you, I think it's going to be Houston. Though I would love to see a Nats Yankees. Of course, you know, as a, as you know, a primary premier Red Sox fan, of course I wanted the Red Sox, but it was nice to have the Red Sox last year and then to have my NL team, the Nats, this year. So I would love a Nats Yankees series, but I'll take the Astros.

Bottom line, you're doing just fine.

Yes, exactly, as a fan. So, Sue, I want to thank you for joining me today on the podcast, because you are a client, but I love chatting with you. It's always fun to have a client where we can talk about, well, not only sports, you have a deep rooted interest in work experience in sports, but also I think you and I share a similar mindset, how to handle the stickier issues that organizations face. So you're always a good person to chat with about that. But let's just start at the beginning. How does the son of a rabbi born in Atlantic City end up in the sports world?

Yeah. Well, first of all, the words rabbi in Atlantic City, those are an awful.

No, they don't. No, they don't. But being the son of a rabbi, I mean, of course I'm coming at this as a gentile, as a Catholic and Catholics about the Jewish faith, but I do know that you would have to follow, I would think, growing up the son of Rabbi Kirschenbaum, that you would have to grow up with a certain set of expectations that you'd have to be the rule follower, the good kid on the block. Correct.

Well, I was certainly a rule follower. I was certainly a good kid. But let's just say this is not the career path my father would have envisioned for me. And it's just something I fell in love with at an early age. I just love the whole idea of producing television and talking about sports and sports television. And went to Boston University.

Rah rah, go Terriers. Did we ever talk about that? That we both went to bu we talked about it.

Yeah.

All right.

So I went to bu, Graduated from the journalism program there. Came to New York after graduation with my. I guess you would say my future ex wife.

A lot of guys that can say that, but yeah, yeah.

And spent a very unhappy summer in 1981. Just sort of pounding the pavement, coming into New York City every day and looking for work and hearing no day after day. And then finally I went into CBS and I finally heard, yes. They said, we don't have anything for you, but we really like you and we'd like you to work here with us in the personnel department. So for three years I did.

Wait, you worked at CBS Network or CBS Sports?

Well, technically both. My day job was at CBS Inc. The 20th floor of the BlackRock building.

BlackRock, yes.

52Nd and 6th. Pretty much dashing the hopes of young people like myself. Sorry, we have no jobs. Then nights and weekends working as a production assistant, a runner for CBS Sports. And my job entailed verifying the references of everyone who got hired in CBS Broadcast Group. And one day this young lady's job application came across my desk. Molly. I could not read her handwriting. It was like reading Sanskrit. I could not read her handwriting.

Okay.

I called her up, I explained what we were doing. I said, where is this most recent place you worked? And she said, major League Baseball Productions. I said, really? Wow, that's, that's, that's interesting. I've always loved Major League Baseball Productions. I'd love a chance to work there. She calls me back, she says, you have an interview at 5:30 this afternoon with our executive producer.

So this woman with the poor penmanship doesn't make any difference to the story other than she gave you your first opportunity to interview with mlg.

Had she had better handwriting, I'm. We probably wouldn't be having this conversation.

Oh, interesting anecdote about your life. Okay, so then you moved over, you took the switch.

Yeah, I went over there at 5:30 in the afternoon at 5:40 in the afternoon, the executive producer stood up, extended his hand, said, welcome aboard, you're gonna love it here. He was right. I did.

Wow. Okay, so what was your first job there at mlb?

It's called Logger. You basically are watching a game that was played the night before four and in my case it was a game from May of 1984. White Sox and Orioles, Seaver versus Palmer. So that's a pretty good matchup.

Oh God, this is sound like a perfect job for a guy that loves sports. Now just out of curiosity, if I have to go, so if you're an Atlantic City kid, are you a Phillies fan?

Oh, totally. Phillies.

Okay. Never sense. Okay, so all right, so now with MLB baseball, so that's where you're, you're rooted and that's where you have a lot of time spent and that's where you've merged now your video production skills and your love of the media and journalism with sports and the two intersect. So you love that job.

Love would be an understatement. Absolutely. Loved it.

Okay, so now we have, now we've talked about baseball and we're slowly segueing into horse racing. But I want to pause here for a moment and spend a little bit of time here because where your career and this is where I guess if we could parallel matching Boston University degrees, is when we both worked in media at the same time. I worked television, radio and it was, you know, the advent of network news obviously. So big time cable tv, sports television, we were still in a network centric world back then and how Major League Baseball and really all of the franchises and all the sports now and how they captured their fandom is much different today and there's a stark difference. And you and I, since you and I do talk, we talk about horse racing, we also talk about sports and specifically baseball. But let's just stay here for a moment, which is the reason why I really wanted to bring you onto the podcast and talk about this because I think there's a lesson learned. I always like to pull out any type of lesson that a business leader could take from another industry and the sports because it's so well known and so beloved by so many people and it just really captures the imagination, especially you know, in October, you know, post season baseball, you know, this, the super bowl, you know, whatever it is compared where we are now when we talk about the public, just like the general audience as how they view sports compared to back then like the late 80s, early 90s when you were sitting there Logging. I can't think of a more tortured job. Unless you're a boy that loves stats. Right. You know, my son would probably, you know, kill to get that job. But tell me the difference from your point of view stuff.

Fans are much, much more engaged now than they were a quarter century ago. There's no question about that. And I think frankly, the rise of sports betting is playing a huge role in that. Adam Silver says fan engagement rises dramatically when you have even a small wager on the game. And that is true. Fan engagement has risen dramatically and I think in large part due to the advent of sports betting, which has now come out of the shadows and is legal in several places and growing by the day.

And also online. It's not necessarily going to the corner to meet Zooky the bookie to place your bet.

Right.

You know, you can do it online. People who visit Vegas do the sports club right there. It's a part of the, you know, the whole experience of Vegas, I suppose. Right.

But it's everywhere. It's, you know, if you're in New Jersey, I mean you're just surrounded by it. And it's throughout New Jersey, throughout Pennsylvania, throughout Delaware. And I think that's really a huge factor. You can win 20 bucks or whatever betting on your favorite team, or lose 20 bucks or whatever betting on your favorite team. And that's really pulled people in. I think something a lesson that Major League baseball learned a long time ago is the way the games are presented on the local level by the regional broadcasters. The way the games are presented by and large is it is a three hour long commercial, four hours in the America, three hour long commercial for the in game experience. And if you watch a baseball game, all you see are people having a good time. And there are people across the entire demographic spectrum. Grandpa and grandma are sitting there, they're keeping a scorecard, they're having a grand old time. There's some high school kids who are there on a date. There's a little six year old boy with this look of wonder in his eyes because he just got a baseball, someone's flipped him a baseball, it's everybody. And it's a three hour long commercial for the in stadium, the in game experience. And I think baseball in particular has mastered that art.

Yeah. And I would agree. And we'll focus on baseball for a moment just because we're in the postseason right now. But you had, you know, you had mentioned an interesting angle. You know, I live with baseball right now through the lens of a 15 year old son I mean, I have, you know, I have daughters too that love sports, love probably hockey more. But so I love, I'm utterly fascinated by watching how, how my son takes in sports because there's just so many lessons to be learned from that. Plus it's fun. It's a great way to, you know, to connect with a kid, certainly. But bringing in the gambling aspect is true. Like Obviously kids, a 15 year old isn't going to, you know, to place a money bet on anything, but kids are playing fantasy football, kids are. There is a gamification to sports that maybe we're building the pipeline by, by, by turning kids into future gamblers for sports.

Right? Yeah, there, there is that pipeline and there is that involvement from a young age. And as you say, it's not necessarily a monetary transaction, but there are various ways to generate a rooting interest beyond traditional fandom. So the way the game is presented, the obviously the Internet, of course, but I mean the many ways that leagues and teams are able to connect through social media channels, through whatever it is and engage their fan base is changing by the day. And there's no way, I mean, we were in the Stone Ages back in the 80s.

Well, and also I think there's another element just having watched. I mean, I remember, you know, being a baseball fan. My grandmother was a huge baseball fan of the Minnesota Twins. And that was the Twins in their heyday in the, in the late 80s there 87 they were in the World Series. Won the World Series. But you know, I was explaining this to my son too is, you know, back then, players and across all the, all the, all the sports in the leagues as well, but they stayed with one team for their entire season. Like Kirby Pocket was a Minnesota Twin. You know, it wasn't. Oh, remember when he was a twin and then he played for the White Sox where, where players now hop around. Like, of course we have Bryce Harper who was iconic in Washington and now here he is a joke in Washington. And the Philly fans are very quiet about Bryce right now. But, but these players now instead of being more team centric, it's like they're player centric, which I think is creating a lot more buzz with that Generation Z group. Like they like to follow players as opposed to teams. Would you agree with that?

Yeah, I would. I think that there is a star quality and I think Major League Baseball finally got dragged kicking and screaming into the idea that the players are the stars. Nobody's gone to a Phillies game, for instance, to watch John Middleton own.

Maybe you, Stu.

Well, not even me? No. I'm going there to watch Bryce. I mean, I'm going there to watch Reese Hoskins. I'm going there to watch Aaron Nola. The, the owners, the, the management of Major League Baseball, the people who handle promotions and publicity and marketing for Major League Baseball finally woke up the notion of the players, of the stars, the players of the attraction, the players what draw people in. That is the lure, that is the product, that is what people pay to see. And once they embraced that notion, which when I was in Major League Baseball was certainly not fully embraced by everyone throughout the food chain, once they embraced that notion, the game just took off.

Right, Yeah, I agree. And there is a business lesson to be learned in all of this is you can't just assume that your fans are always going to be fans just because it doesn't matter if you're Major League Baseball or any other industry out there, that you have to work for the fans and you also have to, to lay the groundwork for the funnel and understand who's coming up and you have to attract them. And I try and translate what I see in my living room. For instance, a few weeks ago, my son, who born in Massachusetts, so by birthright he was born in Boston at the absolute perfect time. He's seen championship teams for all his teams. Passionate Patriots fan, passionate Red Sox fan, but yet when the Patriots are playing the Giants, he's, you know, he's wearing Saquon Barkley jersey while rooting for the Patriots because he's been following Saquon in college. And then he's on the phone watching Stefan Diggs from the Minnesota Vikings who he loves because his mom's from Minnesota and he has this passion, you know, for the players and all of this is happening at once and as I'm watching it and then he's on his phone, of course, you know, you know, looking at his numbers on fantasy football and seeing that his mom is beating him in fantasy football because. But he's, but what's driving it is, are the players, it's the funnel. Like being excited about college sports. Probably not baseball as much, but certainly football and basketball.

Sure.

And then that leads to the professional level and that Gen Z who will, they will not do anything without their phones. So it seems like even watching the series these past weeks is, is that they've understood it now that it's an interactive generation. That's how you can create excitement.

Yeah, there's a multi screen experience for sure. And Major League Baseball has certainly made very positive inroads with the so called.

Generation Z, let's now segue over to horse racing. Because baseball, football, you know, NHL, NFL, mlb, much different than horse racing in terms of capturing the fandom. And so as we talk about this though, I do want listeners to think about it just from a business point of view that it's not so much about horse racing, but if they are working for a business that could be perceived as antiquated or having struggles filling the pipeline, what can happen? So talk to me, Stu, about horse racing and where we are now.

Horse racing is a gambling game, period. Horse racing, in my view, is the greatest game played outdoors. It is the greatest gambling game ever invented. And I think where horse racing has sort of gotten in its own way, if you will, is through sort of a low sense of self, a low sense of self esteem. It's like, explain that we're not really. Well, we're not really going to talk about the fact we're a gambling game. That's off on the sidelines somewhere. I wrote a piece for a horse racing website a few years ago questioning why is there such an emphasis on creating fans for our sport. Why are we not trying to create more customers for our game? It does take a while to engage that person. It does mean that person starts as, quote, unquote, a fan. But it's almost as if horse racing has been reluctant to admit that it is in fact a gambling game and the product that it sells is gambling. Look, Saratoga Racecourse is absolutely beautiful. Saratoga Racecourse, heaven on earth. If they did away with gambling, it's the correct term would be paramutual wagering at Saratoga Racecourse. For all of its niceties, for all of its charms, I think it would take about 48 hours for Saratoga Racecourse to shut its doors forever. And within a few weeks, they'd begin construction on the world's biggest Walmart on that property. So, you know, you have to sell, you have to let people know what you are and you have to not be embarrassed by or ashamed of what you are. Everything in horse racing is driven by the gambling dollar and is driven by encouraging people to gamble and play to bet on the races. And I think that that needs to be a greater emphasis. I'll just say one other thing about that. There was a show broadcast on Fox Sports in August of the Travers, which is called the Midsummer Derby. It's the signature race, if you will, of the Saratoga meet. I absolutely loved it because they treated horse racing like a sporting event. They treated horse racing with the same respect that Fox Sports treats A baseball game or a football game, and they talked about gambling, and they incentivized people to gamble on the races. That's the product you're selling. Why not try to sell it?

And you're treating the horse, the thoroughbred, like an athlete. So it's not dirty gambling, like backstreet gambling. It's no different than any other professional sport, correct?

Well, it's different in the sense that attracting fans doesn't pay off in the end if the Boston Red Sox get you to pay God knows what, $40 to park.

50 if you're right next to it.

But, yeah, Gate B, and you're sitting in the stands and you're eating a hot dog and you're drinking a, you know, a $14 beer, and you're, you know, clapping your hands for Mookie bets. I mean, that's great. You buy a hat, you buy a T shirt, you go home. That's your experience. Horse racing is a participatory experience. Every other sport is a passive experience. And every other sport, you sit there and you watch. In horse racing, you participate. And that message doesn't get out there, I think, as strongly as it should. And one of the large questions I've always had about the way horse racing is presented to a national audience, why isn't there more emphasis on that? I mean, you watch a football game, and they're talking about the corner blitz, and they're just expecting that. You know what that means. And in horse racing, it's like, okay, kids, let's explain this. We have to talk like this because we expect that none of you understand what the heck this is going on here. And there is some aspect of that. There is some element of that. But let's give the audience a little bit of credit, too. And as I said, let's also try to sell our product again. It's, to me, the greatest gambling game ever invented. Let's call it what it is. As far as the horses, the horses are treated magnificently. The horses are so, so loved and so well cared for. There's a. There's an equine chiropractor. There's an equine massage therapist. There's an equine nutritionist, there's an equine dentist.

Right? We treat. We treat the thoroughbreds, the horses, you know, the same as the. You know, as the athletes, you know, there's a lot of great care there. To go back to the industry, I was recently in Louisville, and I hadn't been there before, and it was interesting to walk into this kind of horse racing mecca. And I noticed certainly coming north and heading down into Louisville that it is a different culture and you can feel it just walking around and horse racing, I, I think just by our conversation you can see some of the gaps that it, that's just inherent in horse racing that would make it a difficult industry to sustain. So one, you do have the experience of course of the betting which they don't want to highlight as much the part of the experiential part that they do like to highlight. When you think of the Kentucky, the Kentucky Derby or Saratoga where you can dress up and women can wear their hats and their fancy outfits, you know, that certainly is an experience that people, that people are drawn to when it comes to the Kentucky Derby. And of course it's broadcast, NBC has a broadcast rights. But there's the troubling piece too though is, is the funnel. I know for certain that there are not a lot of 15 year old boys sitting on the edge of their seats wondering what's going to happen with Justify. Maybe I won't use Justify as an example, but they're not really, you know, they're not like clamoring for the PlayStation horse racing game, you know. So there is that troubling aspect of where's the funnel? Of future horse racing fans.

The funnel began in my case when I was 6 years old. My grandparents and yes, my grandparents on my mother's side of the family took me to a place called Delaware park and it was love at first sight. It's like, how long has this been going on? So I fell in love with horse racing when I was 6, not when I was 26. There was a very interesting thing that happened a few weeks ago at a harness racing track in Indiana called Hoosier park and it was done in conjunction with, and this is a tongue twister for me to say the Harness Horse Youth foundation there I think I said it Long story short is through the cooperation of the superintendent of the school district, they arranged an all day long field trip to the harness racing track, Hoosier park again in Indiana. And they gave the kids an unbelievable experience and they stressed not just the safety and the care for the horses, but the impact that horse racing has on the state and all the many people that are employed by horse racing. And at the end of the day, after they staged a race and the kids are all screaming, you know, rooting for their favorite horse and there's just so much more that they did that made it such a great experience at the end the Kids were given T shirts and they were told, if you come back on a Friday night, you can get free ice cream all night long. Just come back to the racetrack on Friday night. Well, guess what? When they come back on Friday night, they're bringing mommy and daddy with them. Right? So it's a wonderful way to introduce young people to the game at a young age. It's a wonderful way to teach people, young people, all the various aspects of the industry and how agribusiness, green space and all of those things are such an important part of racing and breeding. And from a marketing standpoint, I just think it's a stroke of genius. So I think the funnel has to begin at a young age. And you're not obviously introducing gambling or anything of that nature to children. I'm not suggesting that at all. But you're letting them come out and just see a horse, touch a horse, and once you do that, that child will fall in love. That young person will fall in love with horse racing.

Stu, did you say not introduce gambling to, to the kids? So I, I'm thinking when, when my kids, when, when my kids were at Mammoth park in New Jersey, the gambling part, they loved it. You know, they picked the name, they pick the horse, they go up with their dollar bills. I mean, we are encouraging the kids to do that, but on the counter, the flip side of that, it was a long day, you know, and it's a hot day and it's, you know, and it smells and you're right. Like, I think they need to find a way, you know, to pick up the pace, so to speak, you know, in terms of keeping them interested. But yeah, you bring up, you bring up a really good point about what they did in Indiana. It's. You hook them in, especially Generation Z. They're very. They, they like the experience. They want the experience. They want to take away something. Hopefully it would be like a handful of winnings. That would be nice.

The kids get it. It's a social thing. It's something that they get the whole experience. When you explain to them the benefits. Yeah, all across the board. No pun intended.

Yeah. It's all about whether your business, you know, you're selling a product or selling a widget or you're in the sporting industry, this next generation, anyone that wants to reach them, it has to be experiential. This Generation Z in particular, they need to go to an event, experience an event, and then come home with the merch. Like, they love the merch. They love the things they want to walk away, you know, with something in their hands. And if horse racing was smart, it would be winnings. But that's just me. Now, we cannot talk about horse racing. I want to end here or settle on this for a moment. Of course. Because you can't talk about horse racing and the industry without pointing out some of the flaws with it now and what they are experiencing in terms of the equine deaths, most notably at Santa Anita park, and how they are trying to cope, just as from a reputation point of view. So where do we think. Where do you think the industry is right now, Stu, in regards to that?

The industry, I think, needs to tell the truth. And by tell the truth, I mean tell the truth about the way the horses are cared for and how safety is constantly evolving, the technology is constantly evolving, and people are working literally around the clock to try to make the game as safe as they possibly can. And you're not going to evade this. You're not going to sort of squirm your way out of something like this. I mean, you need to tell the truth. You need to level with people. And part of that, I believe, incorporates the fact that, by and large, the game is safe for horse and rider, and things are being done every single day to make the game safer for horse and rider. And it truly is a priority. No one gives that short shrift. That's something that's very much on people's minds.

And also that the industry and the treatment of horses hasn't necessarily changed that much. I mean, it's not as if there was some. Some catastrophic shift in how horses were treated. And suddenly now we have 30 fatalities, you know, at one park. It's more or less that the scrutiny has Start has started. Racing in the industry is certainly under the microscope, and people that never even thought about the industry before all of a sudden are starting to talk about it and read about it. And when the major, you know, in the major news outlets, you know, New York Times, NBC News, when they start running stories, people who don't think there's a problem all of a sudden think there is.

The horses are well treated. The horses have always been well treated. And that care and that treatment improves year by year, improves day by day. One aspect of the industry that has really grown in a positive direction is aftercare. And there are robust aftercare programs in place in Pennsylvania. The folks with whom I work the HPPA in Pennsylvania, the horsemen at Penn national, at Presque Isle Downs, they have a great program called New Start, and I believe the number in 2018 was they rehomed 140 horses or 141 horses off the track, off the racetrack, retired horses, and found new careers for them as pleasure horses, dressage horses, police horses. Finding second careers for horses and really putting an emphasis and a priority on that. That is one thing that has changed and certainly changed for the better and will only continue to get better.

And society likes it. Like the millennials, they like that. They like the idea of a second career. And you and I both agree on this, when it comes to this industry is the transparency of treatment. You know, how well so many of these horses are treated and the. And the oversight with these horses. But where this industry is falling in that gap is if you have. And this is the work that I do a lot in a lot of different industries. If there is a problem in an industry and you try and sweep it under the rug, there's going to be some national organization out there that is going to take hold of it, and they are not going to stop. It's going to be like a dog with a bone. And in the case of the horse industry, it's. It's PETA, of course, and a lot of the animal welfare groups that are out there, and they're not going to stop until something is done. And I think you and I agree on this, is that when you can show. When you have leaders in this industry that show their passion for the athlete, in this case the horse, I think that can rise above that. So you can. It's not about keeping the sport relevant, which is certainly a part of it for a marketing point of view, but showing that care and concern for their athletes, I think will go a long way in helping this industry survive this massive speed bump that they're dealing with.

Well, it's more than a speed bump, for sure, but I mean, I would say that without getting too deep into it, you know, animal welfare tends to be a bit of an oxymoron, let's say, and just leave it at that sometimes.

Stewart. Oh, you're gonna stand and you're gonna step into a pile of it.

I can do that at the racetrack.

Yeah, you can, you can. No, but what do you think the future, if you had to. If you had to sum it up, if you had a magic wand, what would you like to have happen, and what do you think is going to happen with the industry?

I can speak for me and Keystone Films, I can speak for. For the work that we do. We walked into a situation, I guess, in 2014 in Pennsylvania that was not a Pleasant situation. It was different than what you just touched on with what's going on in 2019. But we walked into a situation that was incredibly negative. You had to go back a few years. There was a fund that was set up when casinos were legalized in the state of Pennsylvania. And very wisely, a fund was set up that would divert a small portion of money from the casinos to help fund horse racing. Because horse racing does a lot of good things. It employs a lot of people. As I said, there's an agribusiness, there's a green space aspect to it. It's a huge economic driver, and no politician wanted to risk doing away with that. So this fund was created, and by 2014, it had been spoken of in a way that was patently false. You had political figures saying things like, the horse racing industry is no different than the pet rock industry. And the pet rock industry was a Fad from the 1970s. We let that die. Horse racing was a fad from the 1950s. Why don't we let that die too? And pretty soon, every major newspaper across the state of Pennsylvania began writing editorials, writing op ed pieces. Why are we sending piles full of money to the rich and greedy, millionaires and billionaires in the sport of kings? On and on. So enter us. And I said, just because you're invited to a fight, you don't necessarily need to accept the invitation. What I suggest we do is we stay above the fray and we talk about the positive aspects of horse racing, which again, is an industry that employs tens of thousands of people across Pennsylvania. It's an industry with incredible economic impact all across Pennsylvania. We talk about the way the horses are treated because there are some incorrect assumptions out there that we should correct. And at the end of the day, we also have to realize we're selling entertainment, we're selling a night out, we're selling fun. That's the product we're selling. So, you know, those are the touch points. Those are the things that we need to communicate. And we've done all those things. And I think it's fair to say that the climate in Pennsylvania is. Is not perfect by any means, but it's. It's much better now than when we entered that particular arena. And I guess the only other thing I'd say is that positioning horse racing as a job creator, I think is very effective, not just for horse racing. We've seen how effective that can be. Let's say in our politics. If you're the candidate who gets up there and says, I am a Job creator. I value the American worker. I'm going to bring back American jobs. That's a message that resonates. And guess what? That message resonates particularly in Pennsylvania, as we seen. And you've also got multinational iconic companies out there like ExxonMobil, like Gillette. They don't say buy our gasoline, it's going to make your car run better. They don't say buy our razor blades because it'll give you a closer, smoother shave. They say support us because we create American jobs. So I think that's a very important and a very fundamental message for all of horse racing that doesn't really get as much traction as perhaps it should.

Yeah. And horse racing, or really any industry, any sport, is any politician, as you mentioned noting the economic impact of certainly is going to give you a lot of local support with the local stakeholders. But then there's that other piece of okay, well, but now how do you make this industry interesting and how do we build the funnel and how do we make sure that people show up? Because you can't make much of an economic impact if no one is there and they're not placing bets. So it sounds like you're saying the future is in terms of remaining relevant and profitable is don't forget where you came from. Remember, the local people bring in the younger people, make it experiential and then show the care and concern to your equine athletes and you can succeed and you're all, you're off to the races.

Touche. We did some market research at the start of 2019. It said, among other things, that over 90% of people in Pennsylvania are very concerned, somewhat concerned or very concerned with animal welfare. A similar number very concerned, somewhat concerned with aftercare programs and what happens to the horses after they're done racing. And again, that picture is only getting bigger and better and brighter. And the future is challenging for sure, but exciting.

Hey, there's a good slugline for you. Yeah, I agree with you. So Stuart, thank you so much for joining me today so we could chit chat about sports, about marketing, about how to capture those young eyeballs and turn them into future gamblers to keep this sports industry and other industries relevant. So if you want more information on Stuart Kirschenbaum, you can head on over to his website, KeystoneFilms TV. Do you have a lot of videos posted on there of your previous work?

Not surprisingly, I do.

Good. Now you're thinking like a marketer. Well, Stu, thank you so much. And you cannot leave even though we're broadcasting this before the World Series. Who we rooting for?

Go, Nats. Go.

Yay. There you go. Okay. Go, Nats. Stay in the fight. Thanks a lot, Sue.

Thank you, Molly.