Interview Secrets from the Other Side of the Desk. Lessons from Harvard Business School H.R.

Want to know how to ace a job interview? Keep listening to find out the secrets from application to interview from a human resources officer at one of the nation's top business schools. Did you guess Harvard? Good guess. You're listening to the Communicate with Confidence podcast. Episode number three. Welcome back to another episode of the Communicate with Confidence podcast. I'm your host, Molly McPherson. Today we're talking all about jobs, specifically how to get one when you're sitting across the desk from an interviewer. Joining me to offer insight is Ellen Mahoney. She's the chief Human Resources Officer at Harvard Business School. Yeah, so she's a pretty big deal. But as you listen to Ellen, you will quickly discover that she's not the type of person to describe herself that way at all. Now, Ellen, who is a longtime friend of mine, was one of my first choices for a guest on this podcast because I've always found her to be such a rational, fair and warm person. And she's very witty as well. She is probably one of my favorite people to sit down and have a glass of wine with and talk about current events or our family or anything that's going on in the world. She offers such amazing insight, and you'll soon hear why. Because Ellen is offering so much to this interview. Today, between the two of us, she will give you the secrets from the other side of the desk. We'll uncover how to ace that next job interview, how to stand out from the crowd of applicants in a good way and in a not so good way. And she brings a 21st century digital spin into the mix as well. Do interviewers look at social media accounts? Spoiler? They do, but they also look at more things online as well. We'll discuss how to conduct an interview that will set you up for success and leave a lasting, positive impression on the interviewer. Ellen will also discuss the differences between the genders, what male applicants say and do compared to their female counterparts. She'll also explain how women can fill the confidence gap and some helpful language to explain the time gaps from being a stay at home mom or a stay at home dad. But this interview isn't only for the person looking for a job. Ellen offers solid tips that help anyone who needs to understand the best practices for communicating their professional brand in a positive way. From entrepreneurs to board members. Whether it's a board for a charity or a local travel soccer board, you'll want to hear Ellen's point of view from her desk on the campus of Harvard Business School. Let's get started.

Hello. Welcome to The Communicate with Confidence podcast. I'm your host, Molly McPherson, and joining me today is Ellen Mahoney. She is the Chief Human Resources Officer at Harvard Business School and the Executive Director of HBS Initiatives. And full disclosure, I know Ellen from way back when, so she's also a very good friend of mine. Ellen, thank you so much for joining me on the podcast.

Thanks for inviting me.

Oh, Ellen, I'm so happy to have you here because I'm excited for you to share insight on the job interview strategies for the 21st century. But more important than that, I wanted to have you as one of my first guests because you provided me with one of my favorite nuggets in my Communicate with Confidence talk that I gave last summer. I had asked you if you could contribute any nuggets of wisdom, especially related to women, in the interview process. And I was speaking at a Women in Leadership conference in Worcester, Massachusetts. And when I came to the screen where I mentioned the bits of information that women separating what women do in the interview process compared to men, it was the moment in the talk where everyone kind of froze and they look up, and it was that look of, please tell me what you said again so I can write this down. It's like, really? The room came to a pause, and every speaker wants information like that. But before we get to that, I would like you just to share your journey and how you got to the job. And I will add how you went from New England Patriot cheerleader to the head of Human resources at Harvard Business School.

You know, I always look for that link. I'm not sure there actually is one. They were sort of parallel paths. So my career started in actually in retail management, where you actually gain a lot of confidence because you're a young, recent college graduate and they ask you to do a great deal, own a huge budget, and actually be in charge of a lot of inventory and manage people. And you're like, okay, I'm 22. I can do this. So it's actually great training. After a few years, because I actually became a Patriots cheerleader and I needed my Sundays to be available, I decided to go and work at Harvard University for a friend of my mom's. So my story at Harvard starts with my mom, who is 90 now, and she was a graduate class of 1949. She's still so proud that I work here. So I always say I have to work here until she passes away, as she says, because she's so proud that there's still a Harvard affiliation. So I went to work for a Friend of hers, part time that summer when I was about 24 years old. I ended up staying at Harvard for 30 plus years now, which has been a great run. During that career, I actually have achieved a law degree, which the school helped pay for. And I moved into a department that was doing human resources career development training around 25 years ago. That was based on my experience working in retail, where I hired a lot of people. And that's grown into a career. So I think it's been. I've been very, very lucky to work with amazing leaders who allow you to do HR in a really empathetic way. I've been able to work in an environment here at the business school where we have a lot of resources to be creat. So I've been very lucky in my career, worked with great people. The Patriots cheerleader thing fell away after the while, but it's still one of my favorite teams. So go Pats. Yeah.

Okay.

Yes.

Go Pats.

Indeed.

And we have to say here, by the time of this broadcast, it will be a few weeks later, but last night, our Boston Red Sox won the World Series.

And yay.

So we both may be coming into this interview a little tired, but yes. So go Pats. And of course, you know our Red Sox as well. Now, what I would like to hear from you. And I followed your journey in this job. And I know everyone is so proud, you know, your mother Joan, your wonderful mother Joan. But everyone else is so proud because I think you have this very subtle style in your position, like you do not wear Harvard on your sleeve, which is something I find, you know, it's one of your, you know, highest attributes is you're just such a genuine, authentic person. But you really have an important job there because you're the first person that someone's going to see if they're interviewing for a job. And a lot of people, I would assume, want that Harvard credential when it comes to a position. So I'm curious, when you're sitting on the other side of the desk, what is your approach when someone comes into the room? Are you interviewing them the minute they walk in the door?

Yeah, actually, it's so interesting after all these years of interviewing and interviewing for a big brand. So Harvard University is a brand name. And so all of us have to make sure that we're bringing people into the organization who will appreciate and nurture that brand, but not in any way be frightened by the brand. You want to be able to take the brand forward whenever you're presenting it anywhere. But that being said, with the way we're interviewing these days, kind of makes you laugh, because when you think about how people have been matching people to jobs over the centuries, the process really hasn't changed that much. So in other words, we're still looking at materials either online or in person. We're getting referrals from individuals who say, this process might be great for your organization. We are actually then, you know, assessing their written materials and we're meeting with them in person. And that really hasn't changed. That's how people select people to be on their teams and how they select people to be in their jobs. So human nature always comes down to that meet and greet. So it's a very important part of the process. So, yeah, we are interviewing from the minute we are looking at the materials, to be honest. We're trying to assess. When we look at the materials, we're assessing. When we actually do the phone screen, we're assessing from the minute we actually call someone to set up the meeting. If their cat is their voicemail, that's a problem. We've actually had that. Hi, this is Mittens taking the call. Sue won't be available until 11:30. You're like, okay.

I was going to say, what kind of message do you leave in reply? Your cat's voice?

Yeah. Generally you just say, okay, not making the cut right there. So it might be perfect if I was calling from petsmart, but, you know, understood now.

I appreciate that you said not much has changed, which is probably refreshing to a lot of my listeners hearing that, because I know from an older candidate, and now I notice where I am just in terms of my age and having kids who are teenagers. It's at the time now where I'm noticing a lot of people are. Not a lot, but people are starting to lose their jobs. You know, they're in that late 40s, mid-50s, and they will all of a sudden either lose their job, they've been fired or downsized, whatever the case may be. And I'm. Or you hear this, people will ask, have you heard of any positions? And people are worried and they're scared. So I want to ask this question first, just because you pointed out how the job interview process really hasn't changed that much. So what if someone's coming in at that age and you're interviewing someone, you know, mid stage in life? What could you tell them about that interview process that might put their mind at ease?

I think that if they've been invited in for the interview or been invited in For a networking conversation, which is a form of interview, it's a little bit different. But if you've been invited in, it's because your experience is being valued. So don't downplay the experience. We have people that come in and might start apologizing, men and women, for their lack of technical skills or their lack of, you know, savvy with social media, for instance. Well, that's probably why not why I'm hiring you. I probably have a lot of people that have social media experience or could get you up to speed on Excel or whatever it is you need. But what I'm hiring is your presence, your maturity, your judgment, the fact that you've actually managed people, projects, budgets, etc. So I think that it's understanding your strengths when you walk into that room and not focusing too much on the fact that you might get challenged on some of these other things you might consider weaknesses.

Now that is, that is very telling what you said about people coming in apologizing for not understanding technology or not being social savvy. Tell me what you want someone to tell you, the language that you want them to use to explain maybe their lack of knowledge in this rapid digital age.

You know, I think it's very job dependent, right? So some jobs really need to be doing that kind of work. You probably aren't applying for that if you don't feel comfortable in that world. By the way, I'm not going to make a generalization that because you're over a certain age, you aren't tech savvy. Some of our most tech savvy people on campus here are actually our software engineers who are, you know, in their 60s and they, they're the most current because that's their world. But I just think with any skill that you think that you might not have, I think emphasize your strengths and show willingness to understand and be in that world. I think the most frustrating candidates we have are the ones that just either shrug when we say, well, you know, are you willing to, you know, learn more about Excel? They're like, well, maybe there's other people that are better at that than I am, or they'll make apologies or try to dodge it. I think a willingness to learn is really much more important than actually someone who comes in and kind of fakes it.

Interesting. And really, does anyone know how to use Excel? Is anyone proficient in Excel?

You just say pivot table and people fall to their knees. So thank goodness some people do. And I think it's important for you as an interviewee to Ask the interviewer what they think is important. So that helps frame the conversation. In other words, if you come, you can come in and say, okay, listen, if you're looking for someone that's super tech savvy to take you to the next level in your marketing, I'm not that. But if you need someone who's really great at doing direct mail, I know that in spades, you know, So I think it's giving the interviewer an opportunity to say, okay, what are you really looking for? Why did my resume attract you? You can say, what was it about my background?

That is excellent advice. I want to go back to one word that you said, framing. So someone walking in the door and framing themselves just to stay for a moment, for one more question on the middle age candidate. What if they had, what if they need to frame a firing or some type of disagreement with management or perhaps a whole new C suite came in and they lost their job. How could a candidate, and this would apply to someone middle aged or even, you know, any generation really, how does someone frame themselves coming in from having lost a job?

So we've gone through so many recessions and different opportunities for this to happen. And you're right, it happens during certain times in your life, it happens during certain times in the economy. This is just the nature of work. It's interesting that they now say you will hold probably 10 to 15 jobs titles before you retire. You'll probably work for six to eight employers before you retire. So my own job history is really unusual now. It used to be my dad got a gold watch from the Globe because he worked there for 40 years. But you don't really see that much anymore. So first of all, we're in a different world. So remember, the framing that you're walking into is different. There's not an expectation you've been somewhere for, you know, 10 years. Be honest, be upbeat and move on. Those are the ways I would suggest that you look at it. So be honest about their new CC came in, wasn't a good fit. My style did not mesh with my, with the new manager that came in, be upbeat and say, I saw this as an opportunity to explore. Fill in the blank the following things, such as working in higher education or using these skills, whatever makes sense, and then move on. Do not roll an eye, throw someone under the bus, say, we all know how they are. You know, don't. Even if it was an introduction to the interviewer that you had from a colleague, for instance, or a friend, don't say, well, I Know, you know, my whole story. And those people are really jerks. Don't go there. Just don't go there. So be honest, upbeat. Move on. Remember, as a candidate, you will have people that were either colleagues, other senior managers, people that you worked for in prior situations who will provide references for you, who will speak to your strengths. So don't get too in your own head about the fact that you had a bad relationship with a manager or something like that.

Excellent advice. You mentioned references. I had a colleague who told me last week that she received new position and she was leaving. And I chided her and said, well, why didn't you put me down as a reference? And she said I did. And then it occurred to me, I'm usually I'm a reference for a number of people, but I never get calls. I assume at Harvard they make that call, but the reference call. Does it still happen?

It still happens. I think they may call the most recent manager in most cases. That's what we try to do. You know, there's so many restrictions on what you can and cannot say in referencing legally nowadays that you get into name, rank, and serial number a lot. Yeah, you know, Molly worked here. She worked here for five years, and here was the title she had. Often, that's all that HR can give. So what we're finding more about references, and this gets back to your social media kind of thoughts that we talked about earlier is, you know, people will check your social media, so you may be your own reference out there in the world. So it's good to know. It's good to walk into an interview and know that you can actually give a name of somebody and feel very confident about it. They may never get the phone call, but it gives you a source of confidence knowing that you can give that name.

Okay, good advice. Now let's transition onto the area that.

You just brought up, social media.

I don't want you to give trade secrets to Harvard University and their hiring process and system they have in place. But talk to me about social media and what is on there, how it can help you, how it can hurt you as a candidate.

People check. Let's be honest. I mean, interviewers check. Managers check. Future colleagues check. We had a person who had been accused of some. Some behaviors, turned out, was never convicted of them, but there was a lot of press about it. And the interview people that were interviewing the actual future colleagues were the ones that just googled the name and came up with these former. You know, so the poor woman, I don't think it was ever. She was not a strong candidate to begin with, but it was a situation where if she had been, it was probably the deciding vote as to not proceeding further. So not only do people check social media and it's amazing. People have their Facebooks wide open to the world. They don't have them on the right security settings. There's just Google. Google your own main and find out what your own reputation is out there, what you've been listed for. But it also can be very positive if you want awards, if you have a strong LinkedIn profile, if you have published an article on something in your particular industry, those are all great too. So it can be a pro and con depending upon what's out there in your profile. I do think people are also doing background checks a lot more now when people are being hired. So they're making an offer and it's going to be dependent upon the background check and in that information will come up as well. Be ready if you know that's going to come up. I would tell people to offer it beforehand if they think something's going to look kind of funky. But you can manage a lot of your social media reputation on your own and I just encourage people to check it. And this is especially true for younger candidates. I mean you doing a bear stand is may be impressive to your friends, but if it's out there for the whole world to see it, it's not really a very promising employee strength that we're looking for.

And I think it's safe to say that in the past few years people are becoming a little smarter and savvier on how to lock down their social media. Are you still amazed though that something might come through?

You know, it's funny, we find it more on Google now, which is harder to control.

Yes. Okay, so you brought up Google and that is interesting because people only associate online reputation management with social media. But Google is a big part about it because everyone Googles everyone, right? Those names come up. You had touched on it. Let's say someone is connected even a few points away from a story where their name is involved in it and it is on Google. And I work with a lot of clients on how we can tamper bad stories on Google and how we can push them off of page one. There are tactics for doing that. But let's say there is a story from a candidate whose spouse was in the news or child was in the news. Again, something like that happens. What is the language you want to hear when they walk in? You want them to address it, you.

Know, not right off the. I mean, let's remember we're trying to find someone who's a good fit for the job. So the first thing you're looking at are skills and stylistic fit. And then you're going to look for somebody's character a little bit more deeply. So that's kind of the next layer of the onion. I think at that point we, if the person is a very strong candidate, we often will reach out and say, hey, you know, this has come to our attention. And we'll sometimes send them the link and just say, what's your side of the story? You know, so we want to hear what they have to say. I mean, we live in this world too. So we, it's not like we're some sort of uber judge that just sits here in a clean house and says, oh, we're going to judge you on all this stuff that goes on. We know that a lot of it can be untrue, questionable, unfortunate, you know, you're not responsible for the way your family behaves, that kind of thing. So I think that we say, well, what's your side of the story? And as long as someone again is kind of honest, upbeat, and moves on, I think that we're bound to take them at face value.

Okay, that's again, that's excellent advice. Great 21st century interviewing advice. You had mentioned the word appearance in there. So let's start, let's kind of dive into that surface level. When someone comes in for an interview, what are they wearing?

In this, I say something, I always say for every organization, research your organization that you're gonna go talk to. So here at Harvard, we expect someone to be in sort of business, business casual, not necessarily a tie, but I would say that for men, a tie and a suit jacket shows respect for the meeting. And I may be old and old fashioned and working in kind of a stodgy higher ed institution, so that, but that's just who we are. That being said, my recruiter, my head recruiter himself, he often wears a vest and you know, in a button down shirt, but open, you know, open at the neck. He rarely wears a tie and so he'll take whatever comes in. We have an iLab, which is our innovation lab, and they actually weren't going to hire somebody because that person did have a tie and a jacket on. And they're like, wow, you think he owns a fleece vest? I'm like, everybody owns a fleece vest. Of course he does. So we actually gave that candidate some advice after the first series of meetings, they may want to take it down a little bit. And he was appreciative. So a little bit of it is researching the environment you're going into. If you're going to go work for a wonderful R and D company that is doing really creative work, they're probably going to be more casual. So I would say dress for the job, but it's never disrespectful to go up a notch.

Okay, go ahead.

I say no jeans. Just saying. Okay, you can always go a step up.

Now. There are more options for women out there. What about women in particular? I think they struggle a little bit more.

Men.

It's easy to put on a jacket and a tie for a suit for an interview. But what about women?

Yeah, you know, it's funny. As long as I don't really notice it unless it stands out. Isn't that funny? So I'll notice if it's jeans, and I'll notice if it's something that is really individual, like a Rolling Stones T shirt or something like that. Other than that, it's kind of just a blank palette to me on the person.

People will come in for an interview at Harvard Business School wearing jeans and a T shirt.

Yeah. Although they were in separate people. So we've seen. And we've seen. Yeah, we've seen some funky, you know, T shirts or, like I said, really expressing someone's personal style a bit, which might be fine once I get into the job, but, you know, really funky earrings that were kind of questionable in taste and things like that, other than on men and women. So it's more like you want to just not make your outfit part of the conversation.

You want to walk in showing who you are and showing perhaps part of your character based on your wardrobe. But you have to be mindful of the culture or the institution that you're walking into and that you can blend into any type of working environment.

It's true. It's just sort of like, you know, have a couple of outfits that you set aside that are neutral, and, you know, a jacket's always fine, and you can still have, you know, great jewelry on and a pretty scarf or whatever. But just. I just didn't make it. Not part of the conversation.

I thought it was interesting that you said that you didn't notice when I asked about what women were wearing, that you. That you really don't pay attention or notice, which is a very good thing to hear from someone who's in human resources. But I don't think I could ever have that filter. I would look the minute they walked in, like shoes or I didn't realize that those two colors went together. Or she's making black and blue work. That's fantastic. That's why I'm not in hr, I suppose. Now let's get into the area that I really found to be gold, as in the Jerry Seinfeld episode when they talked about Ovaltine and Round Teen. I don't know if you remember that, when they said, that's gold, that's gold. But the piece of information that you gave me that was so valuable in this conference, and I have continued to use it over and over again, is the idea of the differences between male and female candidates. And I'm focusing a lot of my, you know, my interviews on the podcast have been around, you know, just women in this work environment because, oh, my goodness, 2018 and 2019, so many of these news stories are about women and what women have gone through and, you know, how women are treated in the workplace and beyond. And I'm sure your mother, you know, who was also a reporter, an esteemed reporter, and, you know, she went to school there, and she has so many stories just about being. I know you shared with me about being a working woman, you know, back in the day, but now tell me about the differences between men and women when they're sitting across. Across the desk from you in their gestures, their nonverbal communication, and also their verbal communication.

Yeah. So I think that there's been so much interesting research done on the confidence gap with women and men. And there's just been a lot of studies that have gone on from young children all the way up to very successful C suite employees, men and women. And it really is true that there's a significant confidence gap between men and women all the way from how you perceive your ability to be successful prior to taking an exam. You know, people that are equally trained, the men tend to say, yeah, you know, I'm probably going to ace it. And women will be like, you know, it'd be nice if I got an A versus their performance, and their performance will be identical. But there's just a lot about how women approach work. A lot of that is actually linked, in some cases, they say, to tendencies of women to have been trained to be the people that keep people together, to be able to talk to each other, to be able to keep the family unit in a. In a way of communicating well. Men historically would go out and, you know, earn the bacon. The women were keeping everything moving at home. And that meant you had to rely on other women. You had to keep the kids and the partner and the family all together. So there's some, there's some linking in some sense to that. So women have a tendency to be more team oriented. They underestimate, so that others can be in the room. It's not as crowded in the conversation if you say, I'm part of a team. So the way we see it play out though, in interviews can really be a little bit of a shot in the foot. So women will say things like when asked about, tell me about your strengths, tell me about some of the things you're really good at. Men will say, I excel at. I ran the following. I was responsible for the following outcome. It's very eye focused. Women will say, as part of a team, we accomplish the following thing. Or I've been told I'm very good at the following thing. My feedback from my different resources have said, you know, I usually get high scores on the following thing. And so you'll see an absolute difference in the linguistic approach to the interview process. And if you have a man and a woman back to back that you're meeting in a candidate pool, it will definitely play out as a negative bias against the woman when you go back and talk to all the people that were involved in the interview process.

Now that's interesting. Now you've been at this job for a while and I find that factoid so interesting because a lot of the research that I see mirrors exactly what you're telling me. And just when I do a lot of my trainings, I work with a lot of boards, so it's a lot more male dominated. And I will hear the same type of feedback. What can women do in the position across the desk from you? Or have you noticed any women that have kind of cracked that code and said, no, I'm not going to speak that way. Tell me about any incidences where you've seen that a confident woman.

I think I'm seeing it more and more. And some of it's interesting. They may still feel not confident, but it's a choice of how you're going to present yourself. So in other words, I'm going to present myself as compelling even if I don't feel the confidence. So I'm not asking people to change who they are or what their tendency is. I'm just asking them to, in this case, role play with integrity. So role play the fact that you actually have been invited in, which means you already have a lot to offer. You've already probably beaten out a lot of people to be invited in in the first place. So take that, build on that. Just present similarly to the men. Now, what I don't want to see, though, would be someone who started to say I, I, I, I and didn't mention the team. Because actually mentioning the team and being able to work in a team is really important in our setting. And being able to not be, to be the wind beneath somebody's wing is huge because we're a service organization. Rather than being someone in investment banking that's going to make a very bold move. For instance, on a deal. I need people who actually are team oriented. So some of that language is very important to understand. But practice before you come in statements such as, yes, I'm very good at the following three things. Three areas where I really excel are the following three areas that I really enjoy and get motivated in working in are the following. So practice those statements. Don't be not you, but practice those statements just so you can come in and they'll roll off your tongue.

That's no different. When I'm counseling someone in a media interview, I say the same thing. You have to have a key message about what you want to relate, you know, about the story or incident, and then have your talking points. Don't worry about all that other information that might just come in conversation and dialogue, but remember those three things and make sure they are a part of that interview. And in this case, a job interview. Now, when I talk to women, and I have used all of the information that you gave me, we were speaking. It was a Cape Cod conversation in the kitchen with a glass of wine, you cleaning and me standing there with my wine.

Yep, that's how we roll.

But how I tell women when they're speaking or when they're in a job interview is to think I and lead. Like, be sure to use the word I when you're a leader, because I think that's so it throws people off because they don't expect it, because they expect that from a male. But to remember the we in team, you know, want to use both. And there was an example. I heard feedback about a woman applying for a job, and it was all men and it was a C suite job. And in the interview, she changed and used the I a lot, which was good. Like she was making a concerted, mindful effort to use the I. But then when they asked her a question about if something were to happen at the job site where someone was in danger, you know, what would be your Reaction, her immediate reaction was to think like an emergency manager or a planner. And she forgot to think about a natural instinct, which were her employees, which was that internal instinct. And this was a female who was known to be very nurturing, very caring, and she cared as a leader. But in that interview process, she deliberately took that piece out of her. Now I'm wondering, for women in particular, when they're interviewing, how do they work around the idea that they're working mothers in many cases, or maybe they have gaps in their jobs or gaps in the timeline of them working? What is the kind of language you're looking for that women can talk through it?

So in that case, first of all, a lot of it's very understandable. So I don't think hiring managers these days have a lot of questions about this. Like, I took five years off to manage my kids. First of all, please add every volunteer moment you did. I mean, Molly, we carpool them around the entire United States. We manage their careers on the playing fields. We don't do their dioramas for them. Okay, sometimes we do, but, you know, we're part of the school, you know, PTOs, et cetera, et cetera. So those are all hugely important. And this comes into the I thing as well, Molly. I say to people, say I am a fill in the blank with three things. I'm a motivator, I'm a leader. I'm a, you know, I'm an organizer. You know, know what that is, because that applies to all parts of your life. That's not just, that's something you can bring to the workplace, but it doesn't have to have been born in the workplace.

Right. So women, even there, even if there is a five year gap and they don't want to highlight these gaps where they were staying at home, but you find it valuable even if they're carpooling. And you and I have many, many years and miles. You did it full time the whole time? I did. Not many miles. But you think that's, you think that's valuable?

Totally valuable. You know, I say that the, you know, I live in a suburb outside of Boston, and I just say it is built on the back of both working and working from home moms. And so that town is built on the volunteer efforts of all these women. And they run the place like CEOs. I mean, they're managing volunteers, which are so much more difficult than to manage than regular employees. You can't fire them, can't fire a volunteer. And so managing volunteers, you are managing teams you're on these boards. I know you all are. This is true of men as well. Men who. Everyone who's contributing to their neighborhoods or who are working on hotlines for important political issues or working on Rosie's Place to help feed the homeless. Everybody is very much contributing to social change, I find, even if it's just contributing money. But I think it's worth mentioning all of those things because first of all, it's who you are as a person and secondly, they're really valuable work skills.

Oh, that. I think you just gave so many of my listeners a sigh of relief right now. I've read a lot of information on the job interview process, even though it's been years since I've been on a job interview. But to hear someone in your position say, yes, mention it, it's valuable. Being a stay at home parent, men or, you know, men or women is valuable. And it's something that you could bring into a job, a future job.

Absolutely. And you know, I always say about my sister in law who I adore, she ran her household for years, stepped out of the workplace. I said she could run a small country and she runs her town. And so I definitely think that any of us who anyone in HR that's interviewing that's actually been on any of these committees or been a Girl Scout leader, even a bad one like myself, we know what that takes and we know the skills it takes.

Yes. Now, okay, now we had mentioned women and how they can modify or tweak their language just a little. And I love the tip, come in with the prompt. I am a fill in the blank. Now what about men? Now men come in in confidence. This is not a place where we are going to disparage men and say they're coming in as cocky, arrogant, that think they own the room. A lot of times when I give these talks on powerspeak, weak speak, I'm always amazed at how many men come into the room because they want to hear it as well. I think it's, they want to hear what women are thinking. What could a male do? That is a powerful male that has led, that has done a lot of the things that what might make a male appear to be more confident? What are some of the language tweaks that he could make to soften it a bit, to make him appear more collaborative, which is valuable, as you said, very valuable.

I think just introducing we a little bit more than I, I think that can make a big difference. We, my senior management team and I think, or deliberately either just Using that terminology or deliberately talking about moments of success that involved other people being successful. So one of our. One of the big management skills that I admire, and I know a lot of my colleagues admire in HR is the ability to motivate, engage, and then even promote your team. So whether that means losing team members because they've become so skilled they have to move on to another job or, you know, preparing them for the next job in your organization, that's a really real skill. And that takes somebody who's a very caring manager. So being able to motivate and engage a team and talking about that, I think is huge.

Okay, that's right.

For both men and women.

For men and women. Okay, so speaking again of men and women, what are some of the nonverbal cues that you notice? So we just talked about language and how they speak. How about how they act? What are some of the differences between men and women, positive and negative, in terms of the nonverbal cues that you see across the desk?

My pet peeves tend to be gender neutral.

You and me both.

So there's the over talker who when I say, let's start, let's walk me back through your resume. And it goes back to, you know, in 1971, when they graduated from high school school, I'm like, okay, wait a minute. Going back too far. And then is agonizing over every step. The person who's not focusing their responses on actually what you're asking, they have come in with too much of an agenda, and they really want to focus on that agenda. And you're like, no, I'm really trying to probe over here a little bit that that's too much. It's a discussion, it's an exchange of information. And so anyone who overpowers that with too much information is a problem. I find that people that don't take little notes, that's a personal pet peeve. People that come in with nothing, they don't bring an extra copy of the resume, although we always have it. But sometimes you might run into an unprepared manager. People who don't bring something to write on just sit with their hands in their lap. Okay, not that I have these amazing words of wisdom that I'm going to drop on you. There could be a certain number of things that I say that may spark you to want to respond later. Or you might want to think about it. I may give you some advice about another interviewer that you might meet that you might want to write that down. I find it a little odd when somebody doesn't write anything down. I also find it very perturbing when people don't have questions. They're like, no, I think you kind of covered everything. You're like, okay, you can always ask, always ask, what do you love about working here? What do you think are the biggest challenges for this job? Give me your perspective on how the last person, what some of their big, you know, wins were and what opportunities they left behind. You can ask everybody you interview with.

Those same questions, and these are questions that you could prepare ahead of time. They are not determined on what's happening in that interview, because anyone can ask a question about the job itself.

Completely challenge. Okay, let's just look at me and shrug and say, no. I think you've answered everything. I'm like, really? We've talked for 45 minutes, and now you know everything about this job. I find that either you're uninterested, you don't have a curious mind. You are. I'm not sure what that is.

Now, any thought on technology? I don't want to generalize, but perhaps a millennial might not walk around with a notepad or pen. They can never even find a pen. I don't know if you're, you know, like your kids. My kids never have a pen, and they always have to pause and think. A pen. What. What if someone walked in with an iPad and took notes on an iPad?

Fine. A lot of us do. A lot of my colleagues do. Yeah, that's fine.

Okay.

As long as they're not checking their, you know, their. Their Instagram feed at the same time, it's all good. Right?

Okay. Now, how can you tell if someone's nervous sitting across from you?

Some of that's assumed. You know, there's a famous book, it was written, I think, in the 70s called sweaty palms, and Sweaty Palms is called the Art of Interviewing. And it refers to the fact that actually, both parties are nervous. So remember, the person interviewing coming in, of course you're nervous because you want to present yourself well and you're hopeful for the job or at least the opportunity to talk about it. The person interviewing, they're making a big bet. They've got to fill the job with somebody who's going to hopefully stay with the organization for a number of years, not only be a good fit for the job, but a good fit for the organization, for the culture. They may be trying to build a team for the future, and they're wondering about what this person, possibly what their growth potential is, et cetera. So it's a. Almost a sweatier palm on the interviewer side, in a sense, than the interviewee. So it's called sweaty palms. And it was just put your mind at ease. Remember, the other person's a little nervous as well, but I can tell they're nervous when there's certain verbal tics that will just keep repeating themselves. They'll talk too much. They'll give very short, curt answers. They're visibly, you know, uncomfortable, perched on the side of their seat, fidgeting with the hands and. But we forgive a lot of that as being what I'll call an interview tick. And I'll often say when someone asks me an interview, they'll say, how did the person do in the interview? What did you think a hiring manager will ask me? I'll say, you know what, this could have just been an interview tick. But they really didn't seem to want to leave their last organization because all they did was talk about how great the last organization was or interview tick, very long answers, you know, that kind of thing. But. But what we'll say is we'll just. We'll just put that down to a little bit of a, you know, nervousness for the interview, and we'll just test that a little further as we go further in the process.

Oh, that's interesting. But you're so seasoned at what you do. When someone is talking about a former job, previous job that they had, and how much they loved it, that's just your experience coming out. Probably they did not want to leave that job. So that's not necessarily a tick. It's your being.

It could be, but I think what we want to do for them is give them the feedback afterwards and say, listen, we're going to move you on to the next group. Here's what I want to tell you, though. You know, this came through loud and clear, that you seem to be really nostalgic.

Yes.

It doesn't make you feel ready for the new one or, you know, I noticed you didn't take any notes. We've actually given. We give that feedback. You didn't give it. Take any notes. And that was actually a little. It was a little uncomfortable for the person talking with you. So we try to help people as they move forward. Now, if they don't take the feedback, that's another, you know, is that formal.

Feedback that you offer?

Yeah, well, just as if I move someone forward into the next phase, if they go into the next round of interviews, and we're notorious here, by the way, for like, multiple rounds of interviews. That may not be the case in every employer, but we definitely will say, here's. I think that for. To be honest with people in the candidate pool is the only way that you can get a good relationship going. I mean, they may be your colleague, and so I think that you need to tell them there's four people moving forward. And here's what we're noticing about you. It's all very competitive. There are people that are internals, for instance, I might mention. So they may have a leg up, but here's what you could play up. And so I try to be very honest with people, and I'll say, and by the way, one thing we noticed was the following. And it might be something you could work on.

And feedback, I find, can be very, very painful. And people don't want to ask for it because they don't want to hear anything negative about themselves. You know, it's that pain. But in my trainings, I give trainings on giving and receiving effective feedback. And I also use the word feedback when really it could be a complaint, but that's why it's such a nuanced word. It just kind of dampens it, just so. But I find feedback to be one of the most valuable parts of any type of interaction, whether it's an interview or a negotiation. That's, again, that's gold. It's gold, Jeri. That's good information. They're telling you what's awesome about you and what you need to change.

Yeah, it's kind of that coaching mentality that I think that we all need to be open to. It's not, you're flawed. It's just, I notice this behavior, and I think I would only mention things that I know they can change. Like, you know, I can't mention something that is clearly so ingrained in them, like a lack of a skill. For instance, I can't say, oh, it'd be great if you could also do pivot tables.

Back to that.

If they can't, I mean, they can't learn that between now and next Thursday, you know, but if it's something that I think that they can modify, I think that's just helpful to them, and it shows that we are actually invested in the process.

Okay, that's helpful. Now, here's a question, and I'm going to ask it, and you are going to label this as a total Molly question. Yeah. So someone is walking into an interview in the next week, and you're talking back or forth, Back and forth, and you ask them a Question. If they had any questions. And they wanted to ask you a question about Harvard University in the news, you know, with the lawsuit.

Yeah.

And how the application, you know, now we're learning. People are cracking the code. The Boston Globe, you know, just had a story about how you can crack the code into the Harvard admissions, which I love. Take Greek instead of coding, skip the figure skating lessons and play hockey, which of course we told, you know, yay. But what if someone were to walk in and mention that? Now, would you applaud someone for taking the time to research, you know, perhaps the culture or a news story that's affecting an industry or, you know, Harvard Business School is separate from Harvard University. Would you think someone was just prying for information? What do you think the style is.

Of someone doing, oh, first of all, I'm huge on preparing research. You know, in fact, I think it's almost insulting for people to come in. You know, it's interesting. Now people can apply to, literally in an evening, you can apply to 100 jobs on Monster or Indeed or higheredjobs.com you can just get boom, boom, boom. Send your resume out to a million people. That comes through. When you talk to certain candidates that they, they're not even sure who you are. Even when you call them on the phone and said, I'd love you to come in or whatever, they're like, oh, what job is? Again, I'm like, not a good start. So I find that people that come in that have taken the time to at least look at the website, least look at, especially if it's a certain job in a certain area, like one of the initiatives that I manage, at least looked at their website, at least have some familiarity with the work that they're doing. And if there's something hot in the news, like Harvard just finished a giant campaign and I'm interviewing people for the development field. They should know that. And so good or bad, you know, Harvard and big brands are targets for. Of interest to the world as to how they, how they do their policies and procedures. This is a big one. This is a, this is a nationwide interest because this particular lawyer has pursued this a couple of times with different higher ed institutions. So, yeah, it's a very interesting question. So we would absolutely talk about what we, what we can about that. And I would. Some of it's in the tone in which it's asked. Right. So that's true of anything it's asked in sort of a. You know, I'm just kind of fascinated by this in a morbid way versus wow, this is an interesting topic. Higher ed is going to, you know, be very interested in the world, is going to be very interested in the results. Then I find that to be someone that's just kind of tuned in and curious about the importance employer.

They're, they're like Molly, in other words.

Right, Molly. When I was chuckling when I was saying, oh, the people that don't ask questions are so annoying because you have such a skill, you're such a journalist at heart, you have such a skill for always asking questions and people leave meetings with you saying, she's so interested in me. You may not be, but you certainly press that way.

Love information. Love information. Okay, now the last part, the content information that you've just given the listeners so far has been so valuable. I know people are writing notes and I'm going to provide a lot of the information you said in the show notes. But the last piece is what can someone do to absolutely ace an interview? Your top three for acing an interview.

So, you know, it's interesting, the interview in the end part of this process to find someone who's a great fit for the organization. And so I think acing an interview is a combination of you gaining great perspective on the organization you're going into. Acing an interview to me is not getting the job. It can be. That can be one outcome. Okay. But acing an interview can be walking away with really deep understanding of the organization, feeling that you put your best foot forward. I felt that I presented everything I possibly had for that job. I felt I presented it in a manner that was confident, comfortable for me. I felt that I walked away with a lot of information about that job. And the other part of acing it for me is someone who feels comfortable. And I know that sounds funny, but you can feel when somebody feels like, okay, I actually kind of like these people. Like, I kind of feel I could fit in here. I sort of feel that this environment and what their, the value statements this organization has and the customer that they serve, those kind of resonate with me. So acing an interview for me is when I can feel someone is, is making those hits. They're feeling, okay, I've got the information. You, you're curious about the skills that you're looking for. I'm liking what I feel around here. I can feel when someone's comfortable. You know, I'm kind of like, I've enjoyed the people I've met. I've enjoyed what I've read on your website. Let me tell you what I know about these people. So you can kind of feel when people start to ping in an interview. So acing an interview is first of all not pretending like if it doesn't feel like a good fit. I remember one interview I went to at Harvard. I ran back to my desk and hugged it. I could not imagine working with people that I met. They were amazing, but they really had a very different vision of what they needed in that job than what I could offer them. So some of it's understanding that fit. So I'm not giving you a great answer because I think that for me as an interviewer, it's aced. When I feel the person feels comfortable, I feel they're a really strong 60 to 70% match on the skill side to what I need with about a 30% opportunity to learn more and grow. I feel like they understand my comp structure. So let's talk compensation for a second. And that's okay that this isn't going to be a painful moment at the end where they're like what I was looking for four times that I feel they understand that and I feel that they're going to be someone who fits into our culture.

I was just going to wrap up the interview, but now I can't because you brought up compensation. And I know this is a big concern when people are sitting down for a job, don't know how to give that number. What is the language you can use about the compensation?

So first of all, in higher ed, we're a little different. We often will call for a second screening interview and we are pretty honest about our comp and it's on our website. So if you look at a lot of higher ed, they'll actually have. This is a grade level 57 and that pays in the following range and we usually pay around the midpoint of the range so that, you know, we're a little bit more out there than most people. In fact, a lot of times when you apply online to different companies, they'll say, what's your comp expectations? And you have to pick up a range. And then the person who's interviewing will see that range. They see that as a result report that spits out and they probably won't invite you in unless you're somewhere in their range. So some of it takes care of itself with the pre screening, but I think it's important not in the first interview, but if you get into a second or third interview, I think it's very important for you. If the interview hasn't brought it up for you as an interviewee to say, I'm just curious, what's the range for this job?

Oh, good. Because not every employer is Harvard, where it is online. And this is a question I know, especially for millennials, when they have no idea what the compensation or the package is. And I'm amazed how they're just asked. And then they'll throw out a number. $35,000. Okay, great. You know, and then they get the job and then they're stuck. Right. Just some reflexive comment.

Right. So I think it's great for you as an interviewer, if it hasn't come up. And by the way, shame on HR if they don't come out with it in the beginning, because that's really. That's kind of HR malpractice. I think they should be much more evident about what the ranges are. But you as a person coming in, you can, like I said in the second interview, say, by the way, can you just give me kind of a sense of the range of the job and perhaps a little bit of information about the benefits? Because remember, when you're interviewing for a job, the total comp is very important. So, yes, the base salary is going to be a number you need to survive on. You need that number. But then the benefits are extraordinarily important and extraordinarily valuable as far as the health and welfare benefits, the days off that you get, any other perks that might come with a job, whether there's a variable pay program of some sort, those all add up to being a whole comp package that you need to understand, especially if you're weighing more than one job.

Okay, that's excellent advice. As we wrap up the episode now, is there any final piece of advice that you could give a candidate, someone that is going into an interview this week?

Remember, you're interviewing as well. So I really think this role playing with integrity is important. Understand you're going to go in and present your best self. You want it to be focused on that job, that industry, that organization, research them. Have a few of those open questions that you could ask anybody in the interview process. Ask everyone why they love working there. You'd be surprised. People love talking about themselves and they'll just fall back like, wow, that's a great question. And then they'll go on and on. But be ready for that. And when you leave, make a couple of notes to yourself as to things that you thought went well. Questions you still have in your mind. Because if you get invited back for the next round, That's a nice opportunity to ask those questions, but really just a little bit of prep and be yourself. Role playing with integrity.

Oh, that's such a good line. I like that. So, you know, so in. In conclusion, if we had to summarize what you're saying, you know, research is vital if you are going into a job interview, researching the employer, researching perhaps the person that you're interviewing. I know if I knew I were sitting down in front of you, I would have seen your LinkedIn page. I would have stalked you all over social media. I would, you know, try to find out what minivan you're driving to follow you around. But research is, you follow me, you're a minivan tailgating you. Yes. And then also, obviously, to be yourself, that's so important, just to be your genuine self when you're doing an interview. Also be prepared. Look online, search online, find out who you're interviewing, where you're going, what type of job, other people that work there. Be mindful of the confidence gap. Be mindful of your personal confidence gap on the language that can project a more confident you. And if you are overconfident, maybe sprinkle in the wheeze and the team type of collaborative language that you can. And the last point about acing the job interview, and you said it right in the beginning, and I thought this really sums up who you are as the head of hr, and hopefully my listeners will always be lucky to be across the desk with someone like you, is you said in order to ace an interview, it's not about getting the job. It's about doing well in the interview. It's about preparing for it, taking as much information as you can and what you've learned in that interview to help you perhaps get an interview someplace else or in that place again in case you get a call back.

Exactly.

Oh, yeah. Well, Ellen, I want to thank you for joining me today. I know firsthand how valuable your tips are for people, especially women, because when I have given your tidbits and talks, they will come back to me after the talk and they will say, okay, I need to write this down again. What did you say about the job interview? And I will tell you that I do give you, you know, the nod because I said this is coming straight from the front lines, you know, from an HR director. And this is so valuable. And for a lot of my listeners out there that are navigating this job interview process, it's not an easy time, but it sounds like it's also an opportunistic time, too, because there's so many tools for researching and finding out what you're doing and what you're applying for that now's a really, really good time to be looking for a job as well.

I agree. I agree. Well, thanks for doing this for people, Molly. It's awesome to have the opportunity.

Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you, Ellen. And thanks again for being here. It was a pleasure to speak with you.

You too. Good luck, everyone.

And there it is, your guide to getting the gig. The next time you find yourself in an interview for a job or a project or any other situation where you need to project the best aspects of yourself. I hope you love this episode as much as I did. Reach out to me on social media and let me know if any of Ellen's advice or tips resonated with you. Share your thoughts and your own tips on the subjects we discussed to help you in the interview process or to help other people land that job or land that next gig. And before I let you go, show, don't forget to subscribe to this podcast on itunes or wherever you listen to your podcast. If you learned a lot today from Ellen, you'll set yourself up for continued success if you subscribe.

Thanks again for tuning in.

I cannot wait to continue the conversation next time.