43. How Psychedelics Can Heal Trauma (When Used the Right Way!) with Payton Nyquvest

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But what if true healing is about something much deeper? Today, I'm sitting down with Peyton Nyquest, founder and CEO of Numinus, to talk about the intersection of psychedelics, trauma healing, and the ancient wisdom that modern medicine often overlooks. In this episode, we're diving into why psychedelics aren't a quick fix, and how they actually work in the brain. the difference between recreational versus therapeutic use, and why intention matters, how trauma gets stored in the body and how to actually release it, and the biggest misconceptions about psychedelic therapy. Spoiler, it's not for everyone. Payton's work is at the forefront of bridging psychedelics into the healthcare system in a responsible, ethical, and deeply transformative way. Whether you're curious about these medicines or just looking for new ways to reconnect with yourself, This conversation is one you.

Don'T want to miss. Peyton Nayquaq, founder of CEO and Numenius Health, which I can't wait to hear more about today. Welcome to Rooted in Wellness.

Thank you for having me. Thank you for having me.

I'm really looking forward to today's conversation because I think psychedelics hold such a strong space in the future of healthcare and healing. But before we dive into that, I just wanna kind of go through some core questions that I love to ask my guests. And the first one is just you knowing that this podcast is really all about ancient wisdom in our modern world and how we can all become more rooted again. That could feel like being rooted in yourself, in your health, or just this inner wisdom that we all have to heal. So I wanna start off by asking you, what helps you, what are two or three things that help you feel really, really rooted in who you are?

Mm. That's a great question. Yeah, I think, you know, from a very, when I was about 11 or 12, I started having a very dedicated meditation practice. And I think there's these practices that, that transcend any kind of lineage or geography, right? You think about practices with the breath, you think about meditation practices, anything that just gives you stillness, to be with yourself. And I think it's interesting, you hear a lot of this and I experienced this a lot when I talk to people and I say, Do you have a meditative practice? And the response is yes, right? And I say, well, interesting. Tell me about your practice. Well, it'll be like, well, my practice is I go to the gym and that's meditative for me or I run and that's, it's like, no, that's still, it's beautiful, but it's still you doing a thing.

You got it.

Right? And for me, it's like, where are those moments of just being, right? And then from that, what are the things that I can build or cultivate around myself that help bring me back to that?

Beautiful.

And yeah, yeah.

So do you have a system every day? Does it look like, you know, I teach my clients a lot a concept of RPM, rise, pee, meditate, so it becomes a ritual every single day, right? This comes from David G, one of my favorite meditation teachers. For you, have you ritualized it every day so that you know the difference? It's like not brushing your teeth?

Yeah, no, very much. I mean, my wife always says, I'm probably the easiest person to find. I have a very four-walled sort of approach to my practices. And so every morning, it's the very first thing I do when I wake up is go and do meditation. It's the last thing I do before I go to bed. and I have other things like cold plunge, some breath work, and I, the way I sort of build it is I have non-negotiables that have to happen every day, full stop. I have two young kids, so there's always, that's always a good, a good tester. Um, and then I kind of have my nice to haves, which is I, you know, I, I, the plan is to be in the cold plunge every day, but you know, sometimes, you know, breakfast needs to get made or a diaper needs to get changed or, or whatever, but I think giving yourself that grace But also the accountability of, of, you know, really what you need to do to show up for all those things.

So. Absolutely.

Yeah.

And you mentioned that like the practice of being. So at the ashram, there are such things as like a walking meditation or a moving meditation, but there nothing compares to sitting and just being present. And I think that that it's such a skill, like if we're really going to own in on turning on our body's ability to heal and living with ourselves. And yet it's something that we complicate so much and we resist so much, right? so I love that you brought that up. So on the flip side, I know that you've connected with so many people. Like you said, we have these practices every single day that might be uprooting us. For a lot of my clients, like you said, you know, a meditation check, cold plunge check, breath work check, without actually dropping into the beauty of the practice or so many other habits that might be compromising your well-being. Do you notice when you start to drift, like, what are some things that.

You notice when you start to feel really uprooted? Yeah, yeah, that's a great question. I mean, I think you start to feel, or at least I start to feel that, you know, life's taking me somewhere versus me being in engagement with it. And I think anytime you start to move into reaction to things, which, you know, I think we live in a time where it's so easy, you know, we've all got phones that buzz in our pockets and, All kinds of things. It's easy to slip into that reactive mode, right? And certainly I think in those moments of stillness, you realize like it's not about the world's happening to me, it's that I'm engaging with it. And so when I find myself slipping and feeling very reactive and everything starts to feel busy and rushed and all of that, that's when I realize maybe a little more time on the cushion is needed to get back to self a little bit.

Yeah. And I'd be curious to know too, through your use of psychedelics therapeutically, do you think that because of that, that's more of an inspiration for you to come back to these practices? Do you find that they're more important now that you understand what it's like to be so uprooted?

Yeah, my journey into this you know, psychedelic therapy, these practices have been life saving for me. And it's not something that I had a recreational context for before needing to look for these practices. But I would say what it does is, I think there's such an emphasis on the actual experience. And I think what the experience has actually built more in me is to like have reverence for what you can do every day. it's not about the experience. The experience should be reminding you of who you are and what you, what you can do every day, not, you know, how do I chase the next experience to heal or, or what have you. So that, for me, more than anything, has been with those experiences have, have taught me and continue to, to teach me. And. Yeah. And so I think around that is knowing what those experiences also, the potential that those experiences bring creates a level of accountability of, you know, the more I can do to take care of myself so that I could show up to those experiences and be able to receive, you know, what is potentially there for me is really what I find it being really all about.

What I'm kind of hearing from what you're saying is, It's like a deeper knowing it, like shifting from thinking into knowing that you're a co-creator of everything that's unfolding, right? And your practices really matter in how you're going to co-create, right? The space in which you're operating from, if you're completely uprooted, disconnected, chances are you're not co-creating to create something that's magically unfolding. When you feel like you're rooted, you feel like you are in co-creation for like possibilities that are greater than what we can imagine, right?

Exactly.

So I'm going to pull this back in because I'm sure a lot of our listeners, some are probably going to be, you know, very experienced in the world of psychedelics, some who've done it recreationally, and some are just very new, but curious. And we were talking a little bit before we started, I really do think that the future of psychedelics is going to bridge ancient wisdom and modern science, which is why I wanted you here today. And it's a really powerful tool for holistic healing and with practice, I've shared that I've done psychedelics before. When my health was at its worst, it was recreationally. When my health was at its best, it was therapeutically. And I think that when psychedelic substances are used responsibly, they can really catalyze this deep healing and self-awareness. And when I say self-awareness, you brought up a question, this concept of knowing who you are. One of the age-old questions that come from Vedantic philosophy is sitting in meditation and asking, who am I? And I'll never forget, you know, often when I've gone into using psychedelics, that's the exact feeling that comes up. There's a remembering of who I am. So I'd love to get your perspective in terms of psychedelic therapy becoming now more mainstream.

Yeah.

Thanks to leaders like you with putting a really positive lens over it, many people aren't really clear as to what it entails. So maybe you can start off by explaining what psychedelics, numinous uses in its treatments and how you chose those.

Yeah, I think, you know, as a broad statement that you've seen so much sort of cultural support, fanfare around psychedelics lately. And I think, you know, obviously I'm in the camp of deservedly so, but they're certainly not panaceas and they aren't going to Fix all your problems. I think, you know, I have a teacher from the Andes who talks a lot about this and he talks about this idea of medicine. And I think with psychedelics, you know, you hear this conversation, oh, I'm sitting with the medicine, I'm sitting with the medicine, I'm sitting with the medicine. And it's, yes, it's a substance that you're participating in, but it's not there to do the fixing for you. It's there to show you how you can do that work for yourself. Or even, I think what you brought up as well is a remembering of who you are. And I think particularly when you look at mental health, you think about trauma, we start to identify with the things that have happened to us, and those become a part of our identity. And I think what these experiences can give people a glimpse of is a remembering of you are not those experiences and the freedom that comes from remembering, right, I'm not those experiences. And so I think where Numinus sits today and where we've been really focused on is when I started the company, it was through me having my life saved by by these experiences. But what really catalyzed that experience was how much work I had done in my meditation practice, working with a therapist, all of the stuff that helped build the structure to hold that experience is what made it a huge catalyst for me. And I think that's, at numinous, what we've really, really tried to emphasize is the amount of preparation, the amount of tools that you can have in your toolbox when you go into these experiences allow you to get the most out of them and to try and, yeah, I think not calm down, but contextualize, you know, these experiences. And if you think about, we're talking a lot about ancient traditions, you think about pretty much every society has had some kind of large ecstatic practice, a lot of them with different substances. And if you look at the path that it would take for that community to go into those experiences, there was a ton of preparation. It was done in a community who all understood what someone was going through. And then the community supported that person. Right. And that, you know, for us is, is really where we focus. So today, you know, the, the legal psychedelic that that is available both in the US and in Canada is ketamine, ketamine assisted therapy, which is, you know, kind of fascinating. Ketamine is a synthetic drug that was originally created as an anesthetic in World War II to be used in field. It then started to show some interesting promise around alleviating depressive symptoms. And, you know, it's also, it's had an interesting rap over the last little bit. you know, I think you've seen a lot of harm, you know, be done with ketamine. And you can say that for, you know, any other psychedelic drug as well. And it's, you know, we've seen it be hugely beneficial, but it comes back to what is the container that's being created that these different substances are used in. You know, we also, we run, we've been the number one enrollment site for pretty much every major psychedelic clinical trial. at the moment. So we've been the sites for everything from psilocybin, MDMA, DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, LSD, and you're seeing this huge wave of all of this research happening. And, you know, I think it's fascinating to see how successful those trials have been going. And I think, again, it comes back to These are very, very powerful tools. And, you know, you look at a hammer, you know, a hammer can be used to build a beautiful house, or you can hit yourself in the hand with it if you don't know how to swing it. And so it'll be very interesting to see, to your point around how this integration into the Western healthcare system, you know, works.

Yeah, I love, thank you for it. That is a much needed reframe for how we're going to look at these because. And I'll just share. So let's just take ketamine, for example. On my 30th birthday, I was slipped ketamine at a nightclub, right? Completely irresponsible. There's no aspect of medicine. I was talking with God, so, you know, I do have a great memory of it. Despite being frustrated and angry at what happened, flash forward, my husband had an incredibly traumatic experience at the ashram. Actually, there was a death that happened, and a dear friend of mine, Dr. Guy Citrin, He at his clinic offers ketamine therapy. And so my husband and I went in and it was, it was guided. There was preparation going into it. There just was discussion of what happened. There was kind of like a counseling, you'd say, for my husband that was, that was needed prior to going into a session like that, if you are gonna call it medicine in order for the medicine to actually work. And then there was follow up and treatment after that. So I'm describing this because I think a lot of people have been introduced to psychedelics. in a recreational way that may or may not have been positive. And now through this lens of like, okay, well how can I use this therapeutically? But to your point, and I love that someone like you is bringing it up this way, because if we're looking at the way that, you know, if it was shamans or our ancestors or how different cultures globally were using psychedelic medicine, it would have been done, you know, as something that was so therapeutic they wouldn't have been going back into it week after week after week. It was a ceremony that was considered a part of divinity. It was part of connecting with pure consciousness, right? Not something to continue to dive back into and dive back into. So I think it's important hearing from someone like you why that is such a priority. So when you're speaking to Numinous, would you say like, who specifically would benefit the most from the psychedelic therapy that you offer and what conditions are best treated through this?

Yeah, I think, you know, one thing that I've found fascinating through the whole journey with Numinus is, I think a lot of people assume our phone is ringing with people calling saying, Hey, I want to come and do psychedelic therapy. And that's actually not the case. I would say pretty much nobody calls us saying, I want to do psychedelic therapy. People call us saying, I've got anxiety, I've got depression, I've got substance use disorder. I'm really struggling. And I think that's important in the context of where I see the Western health care system supporting this work is it's not necessarily going to be for the person who's passionate or curious about psychedelics. Probably more so is going to be those people that are really kind of at the end of the rope. And I would say, you know, those are a lot of the people who come to us are people who have tried other things and it's not working. Certainly there's people that don't fit, you know, and this has been well documented. If you've got schizophrenia or any of those kind of presentations, it can be seen to actually heighten those, those symptoms and, and potentially make them worse. But I think, you know, what we're looking at with, with psychedelics, and I think, you know, what we were talking about in regards to the clinical trial. and this sort of like, regardless of which substance, which indication you look at, it seems to be this net positive benefit is they're getting to the root cause of what creates the mental suffering in the first place. Right. And I think whether you look at depression, anxiety, PTSD, they're sort of different presentations that maybe a certain substance is, is more acutely so. MDMA as an example. You know, MDMA right now is in its second round of phase three clinical trials for MDMA for PTSD. The results have been extremely compelling. And I think where it's been effective is if you think about someone with severe PTSD and you throw them into a very overwhelming psilocybin, call it experience, that could be super destabilizing for somebody. Whereas you know, the MDMA protocol is two therapists, a lot of processing, it's engaged, it's there to help people work through that. So I would say, you know, trauma as a broad statement is where we see the effectiveness. And then depending on which psychedelic substance you see, you know, psilocybin and ketamine, as we talked about, depression seems to be where we see a lot of alleviation. interesting, interestingly, LSD for anxiety, general anxiety disorder is currently moving into phase three studies. And so far the results are really compelling there. So I think the broad commitment is that trauma causes, you know, a lot of the different mental health presentations. And then depending on how you're showing up, different substances seem to be better for different indications.

And with the, the therapist that you're working with, How are they measuring which is right? Like, what's the best point of entry? So you mentioned, I'm sure a lot of people are going to be calling in like, oh, I heard about ketamine therapy. I think this is what I want to be doing. Or, you know, psilocybin and MDMA sounds like a great combination that I'm hearing a lot of people talk about. I want that.

How are they deciphering which direction to go? Is there education that's given with it? Yeah, there's a lot of education that's given with it. I think that's where the importance of a lot of the clinical trial still work that still needs to be done is, you know, especially for regulated healthcare practitioners is, you know, when you're in the sort of prescribing world is what are the avenues that you can kind of set people down. But again, I go back to the very beginning, which is, you know, each therapist that works with us spends a considerable amount of time with their client before any of these kinds of experiences are are made available, kind of twofold. One, obviously to properly treatment plan for them, but two, when is the appropriate time to do that as well? And I think that's a very important question is the right time and preparation for some of these experiences.

You must be thinking through, you know, I'm grateful that, you know, there's this decriminalization process that's happening right now. and that there is so much thoughtfulness that's going into this because integrating this psychedelics as a holistic practice, like they've got to be rooted in such respect, not only for the individual, but from the origins of the medicine. Right. And because of the fact that it's trending right now and there's access to these medicines, if you call it medicine, I think a lot of people It's almost like they're justifying, oh, well it's okay, I'm calling it medicine. It's like, no, no, no, you just went in and you got high, right? You did DMT and you wanted to go right back in, or maybe they're even abusing ayahuasca ceremonies, right? Constantly going back in, going back in without the coaching or integration that should come with using these treatments, right? So, you know, do you see a lot of abuse that's happening?

Absolutely, absolutely. And I, and this I think goes back to, you know, what I mentioned around this idea of calling it a medicine is there's this kind of like bypassing thing that happens where it's like, oh, I'm, you know, I'm doing the healing work. I'm sitting with the medicine, right? And it's like, you know, you're off to ayahuasca ceremony 350, but you can't hold a relationship to save your life. And, you know, everything in your life is a mess, but I think, yeah, I think that's a huge problem. at the moment. And I think the thing that happens is, you know, you think about, just call it disassociative experiences, is you see this chasing of like, oh, I don't want to deal with all of that. I'm going to go and, you know, and as you said, even in your ketamine trip, you, you communed with the divine, which, you know, is those experiences are the potential for those experiences is there. People go like, well, I'm going to do that. I'm not going to worry about, you know, making sure that the dishwasher is empty and that life back at home is good. And, and so I do think you see, you see a huge potential for abuse. And, and unfortunately, I think that overshadows and complicates those that are in really acute need of this kind of support. And, you know, as I mentioned, it was, it was interesting with my journey, I, I was born with severe chronic pain and I came to psychedelic experiences as sort of a last ditch effort to try and save my life and did so. And the amount of reverence that I think that I had for the process because that was my kind of way into it. And then to kind of see, yes, the abuse and, and I, it's not for me to say, you know, how someone arrives here, but But as I mentioned, you know, very, very powerful tools and, and they're just that. And, and if you look at, you know, as we mentioned, the, the traditional context for these things, there was a lot that went into being able to move into those kinds of experiences. And, and I think we've, we've almost flipped it in the West where we've made the experience. I mean, I live in Vancouver and there's dispensaries that sell LSD and mushrooms and five meo DMT vape pens like the, the opportunity for the experience. is so accessible. And the emphasis on really doing the work is not. And that's a problem at the moment, I think.

Yeah, especially, you know, anxiety related disorders are on the rise. Depression is on the rise. I have worked with people who've gone doctor hopping for the sake of getting more and more prescription drugs for the sake of that disassociating feeling because we are living at one of the most stressful times in history. And so the urge is real and it's So it's there. And this is where I think that like education going out with psychedelics right now needs to be equally as important as the discussion of the treatment in and of itself, so that people are just like so informed of how we can use this therapeutically. And I want to dig in a little bit deeper, you know, mentioning that you live with this pain that it saved your life. What was it about the experiences that you felt that allowed you to pull back? How did it save your life?

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I arrived this, as I mentioned, my sort of journey started when I was about 11 or 12 working with meditation, working with therapists. I kind of went on this crusade from a very young age because of this chronic pain. And towards the end of that journey, I was getting hospitalized kind of three or four days a week. And when you're born with that, There's this real ingrained belief that like something's wrong. Like I, maybe I'm inherently broken. And then this sort of existential question in a very binary way, am I even supposed to be here?

Right?

Like why, if I'm born with this thing and I'm suffering as much as I'm suffering, am I, am I not listening to something that my body is trying to tell me? Right? And I grew up in a house that, that struggle with substance abuse. And so I, I kind of became the anti-recreational drug person and that kind of stayed consistent. But I turned to psychedelics as a last ditch effort and ayahuasca was actually the first psychedelic that I turned to. And I was actually in the emergency room up in Vancouver and I said to my partner, now my wife, I said, you gotta trust me, but I have to do something kind of drastically different. And she said, okay. And I, I got out of the hospital, packed my bags, got on a plane and flew to Central America. And, you know, I, you watch the YouTube videos, you listen to the trip reports, all that. And I had all these expectations of what it was supposed to be, what the experience was going to be. And we did four ceremonies, and the first three ceremonies were none of the things. that I had read about and it didn't feel like it was working. And I was really kind of, I was at this point of like, okay, well if this doesn't, this is the last thing. So if this doesn't work, then maybe that's it for me. And I have goosebumps everywhere. Sorry?

I have goosebumps everywhere just listening to this.

My God. And in the last ceremony, what I got brought to was this real acceptance of what if this is just what my life is supposed to be? What if my, what if this is all that it's supposed to be? What if there's nothing to fix? What if this is just what it's supposed to be? Can you be grateful for that even through all of the suffering? And I always say, like, there's sort of like acceptance with like a little thing in the background of like, well, if I accept it, then maybe the thing will happen. This was like, radical hands and knees, like acceptance, acceptance. And I had, it was literally in a moment that felt like a blink of an eye and eternity of really accepting that I'm not broken. And if this is just what my life was supposed to be while it's been challenging, there's been so much beauty in it. And in that moment, I would say the system that held the chronic pain, the chronic pain was alleviated, but the system was very much there. And this insight that came in was the pain is gone, but now it's really on you to make sure that it doesn't come back. And there was this very clear sort of accountability of like, I've been given this opportunity to experience life in a very different way and to not squander it. And what was interesting coming out of that experience that I think to really emphasize this for people who are looking to go through these experiences is.

You.

Have this huge moment and it's, for me at the time, it was the most important thing that had happened to me in my whole life. And when you come home, nobody knows you as that thing. And your relationships, the way you engage with the world, it's different. And, you know, and you're coming back feeling like, oh, my God, I've got, you know, I've got the answers, and I'm feeling great. And I remember I even sitting on the plane on the way home, and I was like, what am I going to do with all my free time? Like, I I always was used to being in the hospital at least a couple of days a week, and it was like, Do I get more haircuts now? Like, what do I do? And I would say the hardest part of that whole journey was actually coming home and establishing a container to hold this renewed, I would say, version of myself. And I think for a lot of people, I would say, Careful what you wish for with these experiences because you might get what you're asking for. And the other side of that is, is a lot. And so for me, yeah, I hugely transformative, but also the amount of accountability that was there. And I think it's kind of interesting to put it in this context, but I was grateful that I had the experience of chronic pain because when I came back, it was still very fresh in my mind of like, We don't wanna go back there. That was, you know, not a lot of fun. And so, yeah, that's been the journey. And since that ceremony, I've never had any chronic pain symptoms ever again, which has been, yeah, remarkable.

So this is what's magic. So you said some, thank you for sharing that story. It's incredible. And this is where I think the power of the mind and the body really come together in my ayahuasca ceremony. Very different, obviously, but after going through the release, so I shared with you about my heart surgeries and the trauma came up and the pain came up and the surgery came up and the memories of just identifying as somebody who is sick, similar to you. And that shifted into this knowingness. And I remember I was digging my hands into the earth, feeling the sense of like being held and the fact it was a memory of you are the healer. You can heal your body. Are you done with being sick? Are you done with identifying as somebody who's living with this chronic condition in this title, insert, release, and then all of a sudden it's like, oh my God, I'm my healer. Why did I forget? How could I have forgotten the gift of my body, the resiliency of my body to be able to heal itself? And so over the past 10 years, it's ultimately been the message to my clients. And like you, and this is where you and I can jam a little bit more on, with such a strong history of meditation, there's been moments in my meditation practice or at the ashram through chanting and breath work where there's been a resonance of the same feeling in my body as doing psychedelics. Have you ever felt that?

Absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah, and this is where I think that if we're gonna use the medicine psychedelics synergistically, it's about also recognizing and awakening the power of our body to work synergistically with what we're doing, right? And then choosing, like you said, the responsibility that comes after the ceremony to do the work, to remember this gift that you've been shown to be able to experience how magnificent you are to not forget, you've got to continue on to doing the work afterwards, not about going back in, right?

Yeah, yeah. No, I think that's exactly it. And I think the practice is to be able to be in that space and hold as much of that experience as possible without the substance. And I think, you know, if you look at traditional or indigenous cultures who've used these substances, it's been about the relationship with these things and, and, and the relationship to self. And I think, you know, what you said around you being the healer, I think in the West, we've, we've gotten so accustomed to outsourcing our healing to someone or something else. And, you know, it's interesting, the amount of people who've come to me saying, hey, I want to go and do psychedelics. And I asked them, like, you know, have you ever seen a therapist or, you know, and it's. The answer is usually no. And it's like, you know, that there's a lot that can be done before moving into these experiences, and I think. we're, we want the quick fix. We want the Panacea. We want all of that kind of stuff. And, and these substances don't do that, but they do remind you and give you this glimpse of like, hey, you can, there's a lot you can do. You, you are the medicine. I mean, this gets said all the time. You are the medicine. And I think it's, it's become cliche and psychedelics, but I think it's true. And, and I think that's. you know, what we need to be reminded of is first and foremost, full stop, is us and the incredible healing power of the body to do what it needs to do. And all we need to do is kind of one, get out of the way a little bit, and two, allow it the time and space and environment to do what it can do.

And such a great point. Do you feel like it's a prerequisite? For me, I know I was working with a holistic psychotherapist. I was doing a lot of work in embodiment prior to ever considering psychedelics as a deeper form of therapy. Will you guys often recommend that as a prerequisite?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Yeah.

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Let's talk about like the science behind it a little bit. So you speak so much around the history that psychedelics has taken, right? So from the 60s and the studies that basically got buried around LSD and how those are deeply therapeutic for mental health conditions. Tell us a little bit about some of the science that you're seeing now and how that's being forecasted for more legalization and using this as treatment.

Yeah, you've seen through a lot of the clinical trial work, I think one of the things that's been really fascinating and you think about the war on drugs, I mean, when I was growing up it was, LSD is gonna put holes in your brain and we all have those, kind of stories of growing up as kids. And the one thing that we've seen kind of across the board is, is the safety profile of these drugs is astounding. I mean, if you think about, if you compare them against any SSRI antidepressant thing that we prescribe these days, which, you know, I think those have their place, you know, do I feel like there's an over prescription and abuse of, of those drugs? Without question. Yeah, without question. But, you know, I think the, the lethal dose of psilocybin is like 50 grams of psilocybin or something like that. And that's because you would dehydrate. And so one, we're seeing the mix is extremely safe, but two, you know, from a neurological standpoint, what we're seeing is, is we, we talk about the default mode network or, you know, essentially the area of the brain that holds your relationship to different experiences. and to emphasize this, I think there's this kind of conception or like, oh, the psychedelics are going to take away that memory or what have you. And it's like, no, it's going to give you an opportunity where from a brain science standpoint, there's neuroplasticity that happens in the brain that when we calm down the default mode network, we're able to make a different or healed relationship with those experiences. and there's a really beautiful graph that's out there that people can Google. I think it was Beckley University that did it, but it showed the brain's normal neural pathways and then on psilocybin and you see it's lit up like a Christmas tree. And the best way that it was explained to me was if you think about the brain and you think about a snowy hill, and if you take it to Bogen down a snowy hill a whole bunch of times, It will create grooves in the snow, right? And that's our relationships to different things. And life reinforces those relationships over and over and over again. What psychedelics do is give a moment of grooming the snow and giving you an opportunity to go and form a new pathway and a new relationship with those experiences. And then the work is to go back and then reinforce those relationships. and that's the importance of working with a therapist or somebody who has context and has helped hold the container for your renewed relationship with those different experiences. So I think for the scientific crowd, it's fascinating and I think we've barely scratched the surface, frankly, of what we're seeing. and, and I think, you know, you look at the clinical trial work that's been done to date, and I have to give, you know, huge kudos to groups like maps who, you know, have been doing this work for 38 years now, you know, raising money through not-for-profit philanthropy to do this clinical trial work. There's been no federal funding to date, and it's been, you know, a lot of just the very passionate Folks who have gone and, and raised money and been able to go and do these clinical trials. And, and the hope, you know, now is that we'll start to see more funding come in from more sources so that more of this work can get done. And, you know, it is a, it's a interesting kind of environment because you look at the FDA, you look at the drug approval system it's used to. you know, drugs that require someone to take them every day. And it's symptom management. It's not curative intent. And psychedelics have curative intent. The, the idea is for you to not need it as fast and quickly as possible. And that's not what we're used to in, in, you know, the Western Healthcare System.

And I'd love to know more about the conversations that are happening because obviously the background is, okay, here we are with these incredible that will be taking away a need for prescription drugs, which is a massive industry that fills the pockets of people who are at the top of these organizations that are very happy with their paychecks. So in terms of MAPS being such a cheerleader in this space and the trend that's rising around people wanting to be part of this space, so many psychotherapists are now being trained by MAPS in order to use these as modalities. what's the conversation in terms of regulation and how will this not be something like Vancouver where you can go and you can buy whatever you want and there's no regulation behind it? How are we going to do this responsibly?

It's a big question, to be honest. And going back, you mentioned the sort of decriminalization movement. And I get asked the question a lot of, do you believe in medicalization or decriminalization? And my answer is always just, Yes, I think both have their places. But I go back to, how do we ensure one from the practicing side that we're approaching this with a real reverence and understanding of what it is that people are getting into with these experiences? And then to it, I mean, it is a very tricky one. I mean, it does affect it affects the pockets of a very, very financially lucrative model that we've had. And I think the other part of that too is we have insurance, and I think there's a real finger pointing of like big pharma being the bad guys, right? And in my experience, the insurance companies are the ones that really are the, the, the dictators of the game that gets played by pharmaceutical companies. And, you know, the challenging part for psychedelic therapy is, is it's not cheap, you know, and it requires a lot of therapist time. And that's, you know, the, the drug itself is, is very inexpensive, but the time it takes for the intervention is, is a lot. And how do we make sure that there's opportunities for reimbursement for people so that it is accessible? You know, that's, that's where Numinus has been quite successful. About 85 to 90% of all of our ketamine therapy gets covered under insurance at the moment. We're one of the largest insurance reimbursed providers in, in the country, but that's only going to get more and more important. You think about psilocybin or MDMA. LSD, I mean, these are longer experiences that require more time. And so I think that's why it's important to try and navigate the FDA landscape so that there can be insurance options for people and to make it more financially accessible for people. But it's a pretty hot topic at the moment in a number of conversations, even regulatory wise, right? cause there's the regulation on the drug and then there's regulation on therapy and therapeutic practice. And, and how do you do that? Right. Because as we mentioned, you know, these are powerful tools and, you know, it's, it's, I always, it's similar, you know, I, I always akin it to an intervention. Right. So if you're going in for heart surgery or knee surgery, I want to know that my surgeon, you know, has gone to school and knows what they're doing. And, you know, in the drug approval game, training is kind of light, right? The, the incentive is let's get a drug approved and let's get it out to as many people as possible so that we can recoup the costs of clinical trials, which costs hundreds of millions of dollars. Right. And training doesn't work like that. So, no, those are some of the I think some of the very acute challenges at the moment.

Yeah, it's funny how, you know, all of a sudden some of the basic things that we can use for health optimization, for mindset and mental health optimization, even, you know, outside of psychedelics, you know, organic food, cleaner water, are all of these things that are coming with these hefty price tags. But I think that it's conversations like these, if we're really going to make something go mainstream, It's the demand that over time will have to lower costs out of necessity and proof and all of these clinical studies that you're mentioning that are happening that need to become like front page news, right? The success stories that are actually happening behind us. And to your point too, there's also this massive industry of microdosing, which is like gaining so much popularity, whether it's LSD or psilocybin. And, you know, would you say that there's a time and a place for that recreationally or are you now kind of, from this educator perspective, do you think that all types of treatment should start with a practitioner?

You know, again, it's hard for me to say how someone arrives here. You know, to be frank, even the place that I went to go do ayahuasca saved my life. And knowing what I know today, I would never refer another person there ever again.

Right.

And that's the challenge. And even microdosing, I think it has its place, but again, not a panacea. And I think what we need to have more education in the West is this kind of cultural context of how these things can be used and how to support the community in them. I mean, to, to share and my, my wife gives me the, the permission to share this story, but, she, with our first daughter, she had really, really severe postpartum depression and she was born right in this sort of peak of COVID And so it was, it was a really, really hard time. And after about a year and a half, you know, she was done breastfeeding, but she was still really struggling. I said, Hey, like you have to, you know, try and do something, right? And she ended up microdosing psilocybin. And four days later, she literally came skipping down the stairs and she was like, it's, and I mean, to this day, it chokes me up, but you think about who should have more access to care than mothers who are bringing a child into the world. and I think with that also people that are, you know, people with terminal illness, like we, we know that these things are safe. We've, we've seen the safety profile. We should be putting all resources behind supporting those types of people. And, you know, in my wife's case, she microdosed for, I think, two months, stopped microdosing, and it never came back. Right. And so I think again, I go back to the importance of research to validate, I would say validate what's kind of known, but to have, have that backing, I think is important. But, you know, same thing that I know a whole bunch of people also who microdose every day, and it's maybe just to kind of tune out a little bit from, from what the day is.

Right.

And that's not the point of these things either. No.

You're taking the edge off something. Well, why not address what you need the edge taken off of and why.

It'S a trigger first? Exactly, exactly, exactly.

Yeah, it's a great story. And I think that with microdosing, a great practitioner will give you a proper protocol. They will be checking in on you. They might be switching your protocol and your dosage also throughout that treatment period. It's a really great story. And funny enough, I would never send anybody back to where I did ayahuasca. at all. I think you have to be called to it. And I really hope that what our listeners are taking away from this conversation, it's what I say all the time, there is no perfect blueprint for any of us when it comes to food, supplementation, psychedelics, working out, like whatever it is, it's all so bio individual and we should really honor that. But I would say if there's curiosity around it, then now is definitely the time to start doing some investigation, looking at some of the ways that these modalities are being used therapeutically. And for people who are hesitant, then honor the fact that you're hesitant about it and continue to do your research instead of just jumping into something. But I think that that's just so, so important because the protocol is going to look different for absolutely everyone. Yeah. Yeah.

Couldn't agree more. Couldn't agree more.

Okay. So the mental health space is just evolving so quickly. psychedelics are at the forefront of the change. How are you hoping, let's say, that this field is going to be transforming healthcare? Like, do you have a vision of the next five years or 10 years? I have a feeling that you're probably going to say that it's transforming a lot faster, maybe, than what you anticipated. What do you think?

When I started Numinus, I could have never have dreamed that we're at where we are today. And, you know, if I think, yeah, 10 to 20 years out, I go back to this idea of of curative intent when I think about mental health. You know, I think when we receive these diagnoses of depression or whatever, I see so many people who get so attached to that and they think, oh, I'm a depressed person. I'm, I have this depression for the rest of my life. And that's just not the case, you know, and, and I think we need to be able to approach this from a curative intent. I think that's what psychedelics present the opportunity for if done, you know, and I think we're, we've hit that nail on the head quite a few times, but if done in the right way with the proper intention, you know, being able to have people live full, happy lives. And the other thing that I get really excited about with psychedelics that I think is in the future, and I think this is where some of the decriminalization movement is important and stuff like that is we don't talk about in mental health. We don't talk about preventative mental health care nearly enough. And, you know, it's interesting. Up in Canada, everybody goes to, you know, we have coverage for, for Dentistry. And so everybody goes to the dentist. Doesn't matter if you have perfect teeth, you go to the dentist every six months. Right. But with our mental health, you know, typically people wait until there's a problem in order to go and do something about it and. I think, you know, psychedelics could play a really interesting role. And, you know, maybe once a year or something like that, you're returning to these practices to remember, right? To remember what you can do on a daily basis and why you should do it. So that's what I get really, really excited about. And, you know, unfortunately, as you mentioned, we live in a time where it doesn't matter which, you know, indication you talk about, anxiety, depression, suicidality, substance use disorder, overdoses, everything is going up. And that's a bizarre thing to think about. If we think about how much we celebrate, you know, all the advancements we've, we've made as humans to, to think that our, our mental suffering is worse. And I would say both our mental and physical suffering, you know, is potentially worse than it's ever been. That's a scary thing. That's a very scary thing.

So. And often just the identification as somebody who's constantly stressed, or overtired or somebody who's anxious, it's just identifying with that label that often it worsens our symptoms over time.

No question.

You know, you and I can share that experience together. Once we start identifying with those feelings within our body, it becomes us.

Yeah.

So this has been so insightful. I just hope for listeners, like if there is any degree of suffering, just start to do some investigation. These are all symptoms from your body asking you to tune in. and we're so multifaceted as human beings, and there's so many parts of us that need to be addressed. For some of us, it could be psychedelics first. For some of us, not. But I think that this conversations really shed light on the, the potential of it all in the future. I will say for me, therapeutically, yeah, maybe once a year I'll kind of go back in and I will always go guided back in with someone that I know, someone that I trust, someone that I have who really understands questioning me and how I'm carrying on with doing the work and the personal growth after that. But yeah, it's been a pretty profound healing experience for me and identifying with a lot of the suffering that I've held onto for such a long period of time.

CB: yeah.

So, Peyton, where can people find you? How do you communicate with your audience? How can we hear more and learn more about Numinous?

PN: yeah, yeah, numinous.com, encourage people to go there. There's lots of information, education on different modalities and and how we're supporting all of that, social media, and then just Peyton Knight Quest on social media for all my personal opinions of things.

I love it. We're gonna link everything up below. Closing question, just some rapid fire. What would you say are the most common mistakes or misconceptions that you're seeing people make with their health?

Just that it's not accessible. There's so much you can do every day. There's so much you can do. It doesn't have to be complicated. You sit on the cushion for five minutes, you know, like there's little things that can be done.

What's your favorite ancient healing remedy?

Meditation, for sure.

If you could leave our listeners with just one takeaway that you're most passionate about right now, what would it be?

I think, you know, with what I've seen with psychedelics, I think we're returning to this idea of wholeness and to seeing ourselves both our physical health, our mental health, our spiritual health, that there's they all have to be in alignment. And I think we're seeing people really come back to wanting to be dedicated and disciplined to that. And that's really inspiring for me.

Beautiful. Let's keep, you know, calling in practitioners to really create the safe ethical framework so that we can honor these cultural roots of like, where psychedelics come from so that they can just Be used for the highest good in the future. Thank you for the work that you do. It's so important. It's so powerful. And thank you for being here today.

Thanks so much. Thank you for having me.