53. The Anti-Guru Guide to Healing Yourself with Karena Dawn

For me, anxiety was my blueprint as a kid. In my house, I was a mouse. It was better to be unseen, unheard. I carried that with me into school, and I just, I had to keep the peace. I felt like, you know, calming and soothing is what people interpreted me as or experienced me as. But that was my trauma mechanism. Like, I had to become calming and peaceful so that I didn't add fuel to my outside world. When we think about anxiety, if there's an emotion that you feel like you've held onto since you were a little kid, look at the or the instigation of all of that? Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to say that wellness was never meant to be a solo journey. My name is Mona Sharma, celebrity nutritionist, and that's why I created the Rooted Academy, a space where we can cut through the noise and bring together real conversations, real support, and real healing. If you're ready to be part of a wellness movement that actually guides you towards tangible changes that last, join us inside Rooted by visiting monasharma.com Hey everyone, good morning, good afternoon from wherever you're joining. I was just saying, I'm so thrilled to be here with one of my dear friends, Karina Don, who just launched a fantastic book that had me in tears last night. Let's dive right in. This podcast is all about Merging Eastern and Western medicine, but also with all of our guests, this understanding of how we become more rooted in our health, in our happiness, and also this knowingness that we have to heal and how our journeys all look different. But I'd love to know from you personally, what helps you feel more rooted every day? Do you have a practice that you have every morning or every night?

Well, I think this will be something that's, would come across basic, but from what has healed me from my own past childhood trauma and what is so important to me. And although I find it as something that everyone knows, but they, maybe they don't, I work out.

Yeah.

I wake up, I have a moment of solitude and quiet, and I make, I meditate. and I work out and I make sure to go step outside. And some days every day is different.

Yeah.

Some days I don't have all the time in the world. And some days my meditation is 30 seconds, 2 minutes, 5 minutes, if it can be 20. And sometimes my workout is 10 minutes.

Yeah.

But I just always have to go back to that because that, I would say, is what saved me in my early 20s when I needed to get rooted again. What made you happy? You moved your body.

And for those of you who don't know, so Karina is the co-founder of Tone It Up. You've empowered millions of people for, what, over a decade now, at least?

16 years.

16 years? Okay, almost two decades now to move their body. And you and I first met at a women's health magazine event. And it's kind of no coincidence. Like we really were teaching people there how to own their mornings, you with movement, me with meditation and with food also. And it's no wonder that we're here. So, so movement is so, so pillar. And I can imagine that you really feel it when you're not moving your body. It's because who you are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I didn't move my body today because I started 6:00 AM and straight into it. I was like recording podcasts for the app or not, adaptations for the app and doing all this and prepping, which is fine. Some days you take a day off and that's okay.

Totally. So with that said then, do you notice, are there things in your life where you start drifting, you notice that you might have habits that uproot them? And I'm asking this because I know that you've met people along your journey to health and wellness has become so prescriptive that often the things that they're doing to feel more rooted is actually the thing that's uprooting them and causing them more stress or worry or anxiety. Do you have any practices where you know that you feel uprooted?

When you say that, I feel like health and wellness is having this transition right now. And then there's a lot of possibly anxiety or shame if you don't follow this certain protocol.

Yeah.

There's so much information out there. You should be doing this, this, this. If you're not, if you have this, you have this deficiency vitamins, and it's very overwhelming.

Yeah.

For me, I'm a basic, basic girl. Like the same thing, just get up and move and eat healthy. And I, for me, even with technology, even in my businesses, I don't do like the slacks or the, I just, I try to keep it basic to, 'cause that keeps me grounded and rooted.

Yeah, I love it. Sometimes we have to really simplify and go back. And I think the reason why you're all so probably mentioning, just knowing you, a lot of people who sit in that chair have gone through an incredible journey. You certainly have, which is what you've talked about in your book. When we talk about, there's so many people listening who probably carry this silent emotional pain. When my health was at its worst and my heart palpitations came on, I knew I was holding onto so much within me. It could be grief, it could be trauma, it could be shame, it could be sadness, it could be worried. And we keep showing up every single day and kind of just like stuffing everything down, pretending like everything's okay, create the social media platforms that like look so perfect on the outside. what would you say to listeners who have been holding on to things for years?

I hold on to things for years. And I would say speaking up is the number one thing. Advocating for yourself for, I mean, the reason I wrote the book and did the audiobook is once I realized that I could speak up, and then that would help a lot of people also then speak of. And I think bringing in a community through that way was really transforming for myself. And selfishly, I did a lot of this, but then also I feel like I'm here on this earth and survived so much so that I can help others.

Yeah. Did you ever go through a period where, I know for me, I wouldn't talk a lot about like the emotional trauma or the pain or even my anxiety and depression. Yeah. Um, because I didn't feel worthy of doing it. You know, I didn't come, you know, God forbid, people listening to this have experienced sexual trauma or abuse or living in war-torn countries or witnessing death in front of them, right? It's trauma. That's major trauma. And I felt like, well, how can I complain to be in this, like, privileged world, to, you know, have so much privilege around me, I didn't give myself permission to just express or even feel my sadness inside. My mom also, she had it pretty rough. Like she grew up poor, she had an alcoholic father, her little sister died in front of her when she was younger. Like there's so much trauma, how can I complain? So what happened in or was there a shift for you that allowed you to just suddenly like come out and decide, did you share with someone you knew that your story could inspire people?

And I get that too. I mean, my grandparents immigrated from the Ukraine in 1950 and they went through trauma and my My grandma was pregnant with my father and had an abusive family. And then, you know, here I am. And go, and, but then now, if you look at, it's like, if you look at me now and where we are and what we've done and the hard work to overcome generational trauma, but then there is that, that guilt of, you know, like, should I be speaking about this? But yes, because that inspires everyone that we can come through different generational trauma, tell the stories of our ancestors, tell them how we can overcome and take that pain and turn it into purpose. And once I realized I was worthy of myself.

Yeah. Yeah.

And sharing everything. and helping people. It's, it was a self-confidence thing. I mean, I definitely, even in the beginning of tone it up, I was like, nobody can know about my past.

Yeah.

Like, oh, my gosh.

Not perfect. What are they gonna think?

Yeah. And this was a time when Instagram had just come out. And even, you know, my business partner at the time was like, no one can know. And I had this, which had stigma and okay, no one can know because you're a fitness guru.

Yeah.

You have to be perfect. And then that was holding me back from moving forward in so many ways personally and professionally. And when I finally was like, screw this, I am me.

Yeah.

Like, this is who I am. Do you be a good person and do you share? Because so many people feel like they're alone. And once you're able to come out of your shell and out of your hiding, so many people, you're sharing your story and helping so many people.

Oh, my God.

Yeah.

Zach Bush was on here yesterday, and that really stood out. He said to me, We have the capacity to change the world, the more vulnerable we are, the more authenticity we're willing to let the world see within us is what's going to change the world and make impact. Yeah, yeah.

It's scary. Literally when my book came out, I was like covering my face and I was like, Did I make a mistake? Should I not have said all of this? Should I not have, you know, and then I just like let it go and I'm like, whatever. Oh, yeah. Let it be.

Girl, when I started this podcast, I thought I was gonna die every episode. I'm like, you,'re not gonna die today.

You're like, who's gonna judge me? It's okay.

And if they judge you, let them. It's fun.

Yeah.

So we're making fun, but it's funny because, no, it's not funny at all. We're making fun of this, but there's so many people out there who have experienced trauma. And the work that I do with my clients, and I'm sure that you've seen, even through exercise, you know, people look at us, what's the perfect workout protocol? What's the perfect nutrition plan? And within five or ten minutes, I have people talking about trauma that happened when they were five, six or seven years old. And for listeners like I'm sure there's a lot of people out there who can remember a time in their life as a child, or even if for a moment, they were forced to see things that only an adult should have seen, or experience things that only an adult should have seen. And for you, I know that you can talk about this because you had to become an adult at a really young age. So I'm sure listeners are curious, like, what is it about your story? Can you dive into the story of your mother? Yeah.

So grew up in Indiana, seemed like a perfect family, older sister. When I was 10, 11, my mother started, things started to shift within the house. We weren't allowed to wear any clothing with a graphic image. We weren't allowed to listen to music, couldn't watch TV. I couldn't hang out with a lot of my friends because their parents were part of a cult. quote unquote, and this is from my mother. I was turned against my father from my mother's delusions. And then as she became a missing person quite often, we finally found her in a mental hospital. And she was diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. And at the time, 11 years old, I can't spell that. I'm like, no one's talking about it. We're talking early 90s. And so I went to the library, I rented a book all by myself, and I read it. And when I was in school, I was just reading this book instead of listening to the teacher and trying to understand what was going on in my home, when that made me withdraw from a lot of socialization and my friends because I thought like I was the weird kid with the weird mom. And yeah, so that was my childhood. And then I go through this decade of darkness where it was, I wanted to escape, started smoking cigarettes, drinking, doing drugs like Matt for 10 years, like really bad. And also a teenage suicide survivor. Cause I was tired of being at home with my parents fighting, my mom gone. I was so lost because no one, my dad was going through his stuff. My sister was going through her stuff. I was alone and I was taking, like, raising myself basically at that point. And I ended up in LA because a private investigator, after many disappearances of my mom, found her in LA. And I thought, I can go to LA. I was 18. And I was like, I can bring mom back. Wasn't possible. fell in love with LA and moved here three months later and still was going through a very dark period. And then I had that aha moment, you know, when you just, it clicks in you, you're like, this is not meant to be you. You are not your mother. I mean, my, my grandfather died by suicide through, and he had schizophrenia, and I always thought I was destined to be my mother and. this curse upon our family, this illness. And then once I just listened to myself and said, this is not you. You are meant to live. You are meant to survive. You are meant to be better. I just switched. And I left Hollywood Club nights and raves for sunrise surfs and going back to, like, what made me happy. And that was, as a kid, I I did a marathon.

Wow.

Signed up for triathlon. I followed through. I believed in myself. And the reason that that triathlon was such an imperative moment for me, because it was the first time that I actually signed up for something and I followed through and I believed in myself and I crossed the finish line and said, okay, I can do anything. That was, it goes from there.

Do you know how much of a miracle that is? Like looking back, can you believe that you were brave enough to make that happen?

I know. And that story of me in my early 20s still inspires me to keep going. When I get stuck in those moments where I'm like, Do I keep going? No, Karina, your superpower is resilience. You got this.

Mm, your superpower is resilience. You've got this. And I have to ask, was your mom, was she drinking? Was she doing drugs also? Like, did that expedite her mental health issues?

No. There was no drugs or alcohol in our house growing up. It was just.

Like, at that time, there's still a stigma around mental health issues. Like, I can't even imagine the stigma around mental health issues back then.

Yeah.

You know, there wasn't access, you didn't have television at home, there was an access to more information to learn about this, or perhaps like other cases or doctors or hospitals or news talking about the rise in mental health issues at that time. So here you are as a child, your external world technically should have been shaping your reality and the path that that could have set you down, but there is an inner knowingness of you knowing that your life could be different that caused you to change.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay, that's not to make anyone cry right there.

Yeah, that was a miracle to then in the state that I was in to then somehow shift those thoughts and believe that I can change and then do that change.

Yeah.

I'm wondering if a lot of people who maybe have been through something similar to you, whether it was mental health or crisis at home or challenging siblings or parents, You know, the ability to process it is a really big thing because I think when you become an adult, what happens in the past, it's done. It's in the past. There's nothing that you can do about it. But in my world, we now know that our bodies hold on to emotions and to trauma. And in Ayurveda, we call this accumulation, even for things like, rheumatoid arthritis or any issues with joints. We looking at my mom, her rheumatoid arthritis, we we say it's stored emotions and trauma within the joints that weren't released. And it's a beautiful idea to think about. And of course, people who do the work don't get rid of their disease all the time. I wish that that were the case, but it sounds like it really took a breaking point for you. Yeah.

Well, even at that breaking point, too, speaking about how your body holds the trauma, I had broken out in a rash all over my torso. in my arms. And I, at the time, went to a free clinic in Hollywood. And the doctor was like, is there, are you stressed out? Are you doing the, like, you have psoriasis? And I was like, yeah. And I was telling her my story and she's like, I'm not gonna prescribe you. This is like a miracle. Back in, I moved to Hollywood in 1999. So this is probably like 2001. Does that sound right? Yeah. She's like, I'm not prescribing you any prescriptions. She's like, I want you to do yoga and I want you to get some vitamin D. And I was like, okay. She's like, you,'re stressed out. Your body's reacting to whatever's going on. And so what I did, I would go to the beach and I would get some vitamin D. It helped heal psoriasis. And then I couldn't afford yoga at the time. So I volunteered at a place in the valley called Angel City Yoga. I don't know if it's still there. still there. And I would volunteer so I could take free yoga classes. And I started with Kundalini.

Wow.

And I talk about this story with this doctor at a free clinic in Hollywood. You can imagine the people that are there. And she gave me the best advice. And that was, I don't know who she is.

God bless that woman. But let's hover on that for a second, because I think that I try to be an optimist as much as I can. And looking back at my journey as well, listening to your story, there were strategic people that came into my life at a certain time to help kind of switch tracks. And I have a feeling that a lot of people don't have that faith to follow the breadcrumbs to go in the opposite direction. So it's a really big deal that you did because it's interesting. It's way more comfortable to suffer, right? And it's like, if all we know is suffering, it's easier to live there than to do. It's a tremendous amount of work to.

Change our behavior and our mindset, especially at that age. And I'm like, yoga? Yeah, yoga. And then to be able to say, okay, I can't afford a yoga class. How do I do this? Okay, let me walk into a yoga studio and be like, I'd like to volunteer my time. Like, it's, and it is very hard.

To make a positive change.

It's easy to stay complacent in the where you are.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I think it's an important message for anyone. Just get outside of your comfort zone and just do it.

Yeah. The overwhelm doesn't have to be a full season, right? We can accept it as a day and know that it's gonna pass. But let's talk about that because I think that especially now with the state of the world, a lot of people might be stuck in that worry or anxiety or even fear. and even sickness, right? You know, when you and I are speaking at these big conferences, I'm sure people approach you and it's like, I'm suffering, whether it's digestive issues or stress or poor sleep or hormone issues, can't get pregnant, headaches, migraines, you name it. They might believe that they actually can't heal. I met with people on the other end often, I've tried everything and nothing is working. So what would you say to people? I know you speak about this all the time. What are your thoughts on helping people see light at the end of the tunnel so that they don't get anchored in that belief?

Oh gosh, I'm no guru here, but I've experienced more. Yeah, I speak from experience. There is a light at the end of the tunnel. And have faith in yourself, believe in yourself, believe in your purpose, your health. and I always, I always tell my husband, like, I'm not ashamed to ask for anything, like, just trying, because there's nothing to lose. If you don't try and you lose, and if you ask and you try, then maybe you don't get what you want or you do. So just putting yourself out there, and that's taken years. for me to understand as well.

Yeah, I guess that's asking for help, right?

Yeah.

It's a really big one.

Yeah.

And.

You know, we think about community. I know community was such a big part for you for, for tone it up. And of course, for Big Silence also. We don't think about, it's about bitching and complaining, right? Like women, women are sick and tired of bitching and complaining to each other. No more. But I think there's another perspective or lens that you can put on that where if your friend is asking you, how are you? Tell them how you really are.

Yeah, no more answering, I'm fine.

I'm fine. I'm stressed. Oh my God, I'm busy, right? It's like, no, how are you?

Yeah. Right.

Well, I'm really going through something right now and I need some support and maybe being the person on the other end to say, okay, let's, what support do you need? Who do we need to find? What's the resource? How can we come together? Like really being proactive as a friend, you could save the other person. Yeah.

I intentionally check in with people all the time.

Oh, I love that.

Sincerely. And I also stopped answering, how are you? But I also will answer the question appropriately. But then I also like to shift the conversation to, what are we looking forward to today? What are the positives? What are we happy about? What are we excited about? So it's not just a continued Negative, like this is, I mean, there's a lot going on, but I also want to recognize the positive things.

That's such a good point. Okay, so, yeah, I can hear that. So people listening might think, if I ask, how are you? That's like opening Pandora's box. It's a loaded question. What am I gonna get?

This is wrong, and this and this, and like, but here's what's great going on right now, because I think we can so easily just dust over the good things going on.

Yeah, you said something really interesting. Maybe some people are afraid of asking that because they might be in a position of not being able to celebrate themselves when their friend is celebrating all of these things in life and feeling joyful, and maybe that's like, oh, you're doing so well and I'm not right now. But I think that there's opportunity in that to let that person be a mirror for you. Let that ignite the feeling of peace. of like showing you that change can happen at any point. Just like receive the reflection of the other person that might be reflecting optimism and a sense of peace and like things are going to work out. The world has your back. Shift your consciousness. Look at people like you who have done the work to change.

Yeah.

I want to take a quick break from today's episode to ask if you knew your stress response is unique to you. you hormones, your genetics, your lifestyle all play a role in how stress affects your body. My name is Mona Sharma, celebrity nutritionist, and that's why I created the Stress Personality Quiz, a simple science backed tool to help you understand your stress type and how to manage it. Go ahead and take the quiz now at monasharma.com/quiz. A study that I was looking at when I was researching for your book. So, Childhood trauma, which you went through, increases the risk of depression and anxiety by two to three times in adulthood. And as you mentioned, now generational trauma. So I've worked with these scientists out of John Hopkins, and then they can now study generational trauma passed down by parents through umbilical cords to our children. And I think now a lot of people Even if they haven't been through that big traumatic event in their life, in recognizing that they still, like something's off, I don't feel good, life on the outside, I should be so grateful, but I have anxiety every single day. How did you let go of the guilt that wasn't there for you to carry?

Loaded question.

Yeah.

I just was talking about this, Dr. Anna Cabeza, you should have her on. She's amazing. I just interviewed her. Right before I came here, and we were talking about generational trauma. And how do I let go of the guilt? Number one, anxiety hit me in 2017, which was later. But I actually think it's finally because we were giving anxiety a word that maybe I had that as a child, and that's what I was masking.

Mm-.

So I probably always had that. And I believe I also had some situational depression that I didn't have a word. I didn't, it didn't have a name. And so I probably had that. So now when things hit, and as I'm older, midlife, I can't believe we're, we're midlife.

Not midlife.

I was at dinner with a friend last night and I was like, I've known him since I was 22. And I was like, we're midlife.

I know. I'm trying to own it.

I'm owning it, I'm owning it. Like all my speaking engagements are about Perry and menopause.

Yeah, but that's also interesting in maybe our ability to share this story now.

Yeah, I'm going to go off, but so back to the question, how do I, what was it, the anxiety?

Yeah, how do you let go of the guilt? That wasn't there.

I think because I give it a name, I realize the feeling, the emotion, And even to my husband, if I wake up with anxiety and I know where it's coming from, I know if I wake up with anxiety, I know what the root is. And I either need to go meditate, go for, I call them anxiety walks. I just move my body, get outside in nature, or get in a cold plunge.

Right. Processing.

Processing. I know how to help that now.

That's so interesting that you brought that up too, because as we learn more and more about nervous system regulation, It's not always the here and now, the event that's happening in this moment. That is the thing that's causing you anxiety, but it's the resonance and the memory within you that's triggering the anxiety nerve that you might have held onto since childhood.

Yeah.

And, you know, I even get anxiety by coming back to LA.

Oh, yeah.

Only because there's so much history here and I've been here for almost 20 years.

Yeah.

And my choice to leave. And then I love LA and there's so much greatness here, but there's a lot of, I've realized like every time I come here, I'm like, I have to ground myself.

Oh my gosh, LA is magnificent as a Canadian. It is magnificent, but there's an undercurrent here that is intense.

I didn't realize how intense I was for so many years here too.

Yeah.

And there's great people here and I mean, you're moving to a beautiful place in nature, which is, I needed it. Yeah.

Yeah, we'll talk about that also, but maybe for listeners now, like when we think about anxiety, if there's an emotion that you feel like you've held onto since you were a little kid, look at the source or the instigation of all of that. Whether you feel like you have worth to complain about it or not, just do some investigating. Often it's done best with a practitioner. to kind of hold space for you. But for me, anxiety was my blueprint as a kid. In my house, I was a mouse. It was better to be unseen, unheard. I carried that with me into school, and I just, I had to keep the peace. I felt like, you know, calming and soothing is what people interpreted me as or experienced me as. But that was my trauma mechanism. Like, I had to become calming and peaceful so that I didn't add fuel to my outside world. And sure enough, it's kind of turned into my superpower, right? It's what I do for a living. It's probably the most common compliment that I'm so grateful to receive. And I'm happy to hold that for other people. And like you, had your journey not have paved the way for you to this moment, you wouldn't be able to take this message out into the world. And to your point about being midlife, women are talking about owning our age and getting to this point. But I think that like the confronting aspect of it, and tell me if you feel the same way, it's just that time's going by so fast. And now here we are midlife with finally built up the courage to talk about the stuff that got us to this point and in hopes to help the other people in the world. But it's like, oh man, it's going by so fast.

I know.

Pump the brakes, keep me here for a little bit longer.

I think what I'm learning in this and which probably causes my current anxiety sometimes I wake up and I'm like, how did, I'm grateful I got here because there could have been an alternative as a teenager. So I always switch that in my head. I'm like, I get to be here. I am here. Like, what can I do today to make today a great day? And also this is something that my husband does now. Recently I'm like, where did this come from? He asked me, how can I make your day better? Like.

Yeah.

That's love.

Where did that come from? Okay, I got a honey do list.

It feels better because it's not just like, what do you need me to do?

Yeah.

How can I, how can I, yeah, that's beautiful. One of the things I was most interested in learning about you after I learned your story and really just visualizing what that was like, for a little girl to just feel so alone and to move through every single emotion. How did you get to a point of forgiveness?

Yeah, that was hard. Forgiveness and learning to love again were the biggest things because I had to forgive my mother for something that wasn't her fault. Mental illness is a disease. that is not her fault that that happened and that she had that disease and that she wasn't able to be there. And also because I loved her so much and then she couldn't be there. So there was abandonment. So those are the two biggest things that I had to work through, through therapy and self work. How do you get there? self work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Self-help books, connecting with self, learning how to be present and safe within your own body, learning to trust yourself. I think that's one of the biggest things is learning who you are. Can if you can trust you, if you don't trust you and who you are, you'll, it'll be hard to trust anyone else. And if you don't love you, you can't love anyone else. And it's your responsibility to trust and love yourself so that you can be the best version of yourself, to trust and love someone else. And then be able to believe that you love you, and then be able to believe that that person you can trust and love and accept their love.

Isn't it wild? I say this, I look at my kids all the time and I'm like, when I was little, I was never taught to love myself. Yeah. Every cell, every part of me, I was never taught. And as kids, we see it now, we're taught to conform, to fit in, to be like other people. If we're different, we feel shame. Shame, just like the feeling of shame in your body, if you've felt that before, it's not serving. You're not in alignment with healing. or feeling good at all. There's no potential to go out in the world and help other people when you're in the feeling of Shame. So when you were able to get to that point of self-love did that come through? You said therapy is a talk therapy. Is it therapy through a woman who allowed you to or supported you in processing emotion?

Everything. I've done EMDR, I've done talk therapy. I've done. I have worked with a wonderful woman who's space here in LA, Gwen Ditmar, who helped me with my inner child work and assignments to take home and journaling and all the things. That was just so much, it's so much effort to go into this because when you experience so much trauma and to unravel all of that, but it's the most beautiful gift once you actually can unravel it.

Right.

And realize what's on the other side.

Can you share about EMDR?

Yeah, I'm terrible at what is eye movement.

Yeah. Eye movement and directional something.

Something. I know. I should know.

This is world news.

Years ago that I did it and I did nine sessions and it helps you remove trauma. So for me, I used and I always say there's a great podcast on the Big Silence where Gabby Bernstein explains it perfectly. Um, but for me, I used a device on my thumbs that like had some movement and the therapist asks you questions and it connects to your brain and you're going back to certain traumas and bringing back memories and then, healing them. I probably described that terribly, but it worked though, because I stopped at the time I did it because I, my mom. trigger me where I could be out for two days. I could get a migraine. I was triggered, triggered, triggered. If she would say one thing or something. And after I did EMDR, I never got triggered again.

Yeah.

Like in the way that I would be triggered, you know?

Yeah. I haven't done an EMDR session, but I have recommended it to a handful of my clients and one client specifically who had experienced sexual trauma as a child. From what I understand, so you're retraining through stimulation and triggering memories, the movement of your eyes and how you're accuing the brain and triggering the brain to retrain the brain in those traumatic events, which is amazing. You're rewiring the brain to kind of lessen the grip of the intention, the intensity of that moment, which is so powerful. And I wanted to own in on that because you mentioned a few different therapies. I'm sure over the years you probably had to like shop around for different therapists who really supported you.

Yeah, sometimes there's therapists that you're like, I don't really vibe.

Yeah.

Which is totally fine. And it's really hard to find a good therapist. I loved the one I did EMDR with when I first talked to her on the phone and we got to know each other. She's like, she had a great, she's from the UK. She had a great accent, which was very soothing.

That helps.

But she's like, you should, Always feel like you can have a cup of tea with your therapist and feel comfortable. And she's like, if you don't like me, that's fine. But if you wanna come and sit down on the couch and have a cup of tea and you feel good, then we'll work together.

Wow. I'm thinking about you. So a woman coming into your life telling you you're in a safe environment to feel like you're at home to talk about the things that are most upsetting for you. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's the feeling of coming home. I find I've met with many therapists, and forgive me if there are some therapists who are listening to this, I just feel like we're moving away from therapists who simply do talk therapy.

I need action.

Yeah, and look, like I talk about my issues enough in my mind. I've replayed the stories probably millions of times, and every time I do that, I'm reliving the scenario that's making me feel like I'm not enough, that I'm not worthy, and that I don't love myself. Then you find somebody and that person allows you to talk about it and then gives you a different perspective. Maybe does timeline therapy with you to go back to that memory as a child, maybe helps you process emotions so you literally feel the emotion coming out of your body. And then it just, every single time it dissipates and it gets lighter and lighter and lighter until it's gone. So I think for listeners, like maybe you haven't found, if you haven't found the right therapist or if you haven't tried MDR, if you haven't, Found a modality that really has helped you feel a release. Keep looking, ask around. Like this is one of those opportunities for you to ask.

Yeah.

I mean, finding a therapist is like finding not a friend, but sort of you don't have to just automatically be matched and be like, we're vibing.

Yeah.

You're the right person for me.

The first question I ask my clients when I work with them, which always surprises them is who's part of your care team? You know, most people think that it's got to be like a personal trainer and acupuncturist. I'm like, no, it could be a best friend. It could be. a sibling. It could be a, you know, somebody in your life who that you just is a confident, but find a care team, people who can support you, people who become your 9-1-1 I think that that's so essential.

Yeah.

And also not, it doesn't have to be all or nothing or like you have to have a team of 10 people. Totally. Two or three people.

Two or three people.

Yeah.

Or a community.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

So maybe this is a good segue for you to tell us about the big silence. yeah.

So I founded the Big Silence in 2021. We have the foundation, which provides therapy for all program, or we provide therapy through our therapist program. I founded it because it was part of what I felt when I was with my mom and she passed away. She. I felt like she didn't live her best life, and she never wanted to share her story or. talk about her mental illness. She never wanted to talk about her mental illness because she said that there's a stigma and people would think that she's dangerous. And so she just hid behind a curtain, lived homeless in and out, and lived a solo lifestyle. And I wanted to make sure that, number one, no one had to grow up like little Karina, not knowing what's going on. And number two, no one had to suffer in silence. like my mom. And so I wanted to start the podcast. I wrote the book before my mom passed. I told her everything. And she fully, you know, she said she finally admitted to me. She's like, it's not just my physical health, it's my mental health. And she gave me the permission to use her story to help heal others. So big silence is just all the things that people don't want to talk about because we're too scared. Right. But those are the stories that help us heal.

What a great resource for men and for women to just come together where they can share or have that vulnerability, or they might not feel safe to talk about it in their communities or with their environment or employees or co-colleagues.

And you mentioned men, big silence is men and women. And June is Men's Mental Health Awareness Month. And we're doing for the second year in a row, men's golf tournament to support men's mental health. And it's amazing to show up in a room with so many men, mostly from the trade industry, and to have them talk about their stories and how they're feeling. And men, like, a hundred of men or so, just coming on a mic and being like, this is my story. It's so important to have men open up as well. Because women will just talk. We'll be like, we'll go and go, but men keep so much inside.

Oh my God, yeah. And I am here for the movement for women, especially around health and wellness. But I feel like there's a time right now where men need support mentally. And I'm thinking about my son growing up and how we're teaching men how to be in this world. And, you know, talk about your problems, but don't be too vulnerable and let a woman feel empowered, but not too empowered. still, you know, like it's so complicated and confusing and mentally, I think that it's time that we support them also.

We all need to be, we all.

Need to be supported.

Yeah.

No matter who we all, we all are need support, no matter what your journey was. And I think that what is such a gift for you as an outsider looking in, what are the chances that you had this incredible success of town it up that gave you the means to be able to care for your mom in the end and finally have this closure for you. Like, I remember coming on your podcast and I'm like, do you have closure from your mom? Like this woman who gave you so much harm, but ultimately in the end so much love and a story that's helping you impact the lives of millions of people.

Question of closure? I do.

Yeah. I'm so happy.

Those last few days with her and I think she's decided me and some dreams and.

Yeah. Yeah.

I do have closure with that. There's no regret. I'm just being her caretaker at the end and giving it my all. That's what I do in all situations. I know that there's nothing more that I could do but to love. Yeah.

It's so beautiful. I think a lot of people, maybe listeners also, we're just, we're not given that opportunity. Or the person on the other end will not be a receiver. They don't want to discuss it. They're happy living in that world of resentment or sadness or judgment. So it's a beautiful, beautiful thing. So what advice do you have for someone who wants to begin the healing journey? Hearing your story, feeling inspired, maybe feeling that tension come up within, where do they start? And maybe this is like if traditional therapy feels out of reach for them, where would they start?

Get ready for a long, hard ride, but know that you are worth it. Get ready to be uncomfortable, but then comfortability is coming. So do something that challenges you every day, and it can be a mini challenge if it's just Getting up and grounding yourself and breathing for 30 seconds the first day.

Right.

And then the next mini challenge is, I'm gonna go outside and walk. The next challenge is, I'm gonna ask a friend to talk to me and be vulnerable. It's like those mini challenges that you can build into something bigger. And so each day it's like a mini step, How can I make myself uncomfortable today?

Right.

And then build on that.

Micro things to get uncomfortable going through it, which leads to comfort on the other side. I think a lot of people are going through things right now, but what an interesting approach to think about, all right, maybe you start with journaling in the same way that you asked yourself that question. What if my life doesn't have to look this way? What if I don't have to feel this way? What if this isn't my destiny? What if I'm sick and tired of living and feeling the way that I do. I just start daydreaming about what the future could look like. And then from there, going out and building your support, like, all right, being ready and prepared to dive deeper into the discomfort and maybe the sadness that comes up, but knowing you're fully supported to get there.

And know that sadness is great.

Yes. Yeah.

Grief is great-ish. It's not great, but, you know, we have to have the grief to have the joy.

I'm finding myself, I used to think that I was a crier, that I would just let things out, but I'm finding myself now in the moments where like discomfort comes up, like almost forcing myself to like, oh, I let it out. Yeah. And sometimes it's just a really good cry and from there, yeah, it just feels like, oh, I don't have to hold on to that anymore.

And there's a stigma and a shame around shedding a tear. Like, no, you're letting yourself feel. We are meant to feel every emotion.

Yeah.

And even breath, right? In our veda, we just acknowledge our breath. And breath is something that we do through movement. And that's probably something that was, you know, movement with our breath is something that brings the. The physical release. So. All right. I want to get to a couple questions from this amazing audience. Anna was asking, I want to show up for myself, but I feel stuck in survival mode. How can I shift?

Again, no expert, just personal experience. How can you show up for yourself and survive? I have felt in survival mode many times and showing up for yourself is a choice in inner work. And know that you can. And what is that showing up for yourself? Does it go back to the many practices, the many steps that we take each day to just show up with yourself and maybe even in a journal you plan out for a week. How am I going to show up for myself for seven days in a row? Simple things. Yeah, very simple. Start simple.

And what am I acknowledging? Like, do you ever sit back and acknowledge? I did this with my husband this morning. I'm like, it's too much. There's too much happening right now. Life feels really hard, and a lot of positivity is happening, but there's so many buckets in my life that just feel like overwhelming and just feeling it and acknowledging that instead of trying to just hold it in and as a woman, yeah, I get I can do it all, but like this is a lot for me right now.

Yeah, I acknowledge, it's fine and shift that from there's so much going on to I get to have so much going on. Cause I, if I stay stagnant, then I'm also like, I don't like that. So I like to keep doing things.

Yeah. You and I have seen the beauty that exists in this world, and I think we have to really count our blessings and gratitude. It sounds so cliche, but if we can just be grateful for this vessel and look at the beauty around us, right? I think it's something that we have to come back to. It's so powerful. Just one more. So, Stacy, is it normal to feel anxiety even when everything on the outside looks.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yes.

It's a lot. Yes.

Yeah.

The world is so complex. All of our lives are so complex. And as we get older and wiser, it's more complex.

Yeah.

And you have more responsibility. And that responsibility can turn into all of these thoughts and can cause anxiety. So how do you bring yourself back? from that anxiety, whether it's grounding, meditation, you know, just, you just gotta bring yourself back, find what works for you to bring yourself back to the present moment, because the anxiety is worrying about the past, we're worrying about the future.

Yeah.

So how do you get back to right here?

Right. And maybe the introspection again, right? I think it takes a lot of courage to ask yourself, I'm feeling anxiety. Where is this anxiety coming from? What is my body trying to communicate with you, with me? And having worked with so many different types of clients, the anxiety stems from so many different sources, whether it's living in the past or the future, whether it's dysbiosis within the gut microbiome, whether it's something physically happening in the body or inflammation, the source is different for all of us, but really having the courage to do the introspection is really key. I want to make sure, I want to mention the audiobook that's coming out right now for the Big Silence. I was brought to tears in the first few pages. And I think just as a woman, as a man, whatever your background is, it's so important. You say in your book, my goal is to serve as a beacon of hope and inspiration, guiding you on your own unique path to dream, to hope and to love what could be better and dream, hope and love. I think that the more that we can attune our healing journey to those three things, it lessens the grip of what my perfect diet should be and what's the hardcore protocol for exercise? Like none of that matters. It goes away. You start leading with love for yourself and compassion for others. So can you tell us a little bit about, tell us about the book, tell us about the audiobook, how to find you?

Yeah, well, you can go to carinadawn.com, bigsilence.com, the book is a memoir. It's, I wanted to write it as almost as if a movie. And even when I did the audiobook, it was a tough one to do, but I actually had to get in, it was kind of like acting. I had to get into character because I have like my mom and my dad, my sister, and all these different, you know, it was really fun and hard to record, but I think you'll love it. Oh, and in the audiobook, I have these bonus sections. There's eight sections in the book, and then I brought in a friend of mine who's a therapist, and so she deep dives. I into each section of going back and asking me all these questions. Um, so there's definitely bonus footage in there too.

So good. You have incredible content online. You've got a few platforms. Where do you, where are you most active with your audience?

I would say Instagram.

Instagram, yeah. Karina Dunn. Yeah. Yeah.

Now you can find all the rest.

Yeah. I wanted to call that out because I really, I don't think that we're deficient in protocols. or gurus, or, you know, what the next best thing is gonna be. I really think that through compassion and through storytelling is how we're gonna inspire change in this world. And for our listeners who join in today, whether you're listening now or when this gets published, I think it's safe to say that we all have silence within us. And I would say that even on my healing journey, which I'm still on.

-Kristin: We will always be on it. -DEBRA: and that's okay.

It's almost like by doing the work, we're getting to another level of being able to release and hold capacity deeper layers of suffering within us. So I hope that our listeners are inspired today to just like release a little bit of that silence or be willing to look at it and using your story to reclaim their joy. Thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah, till next time.