54. The Hidden Gut Fix for Fatigue, Cravings, and Weight Gain with Colleen Cutcliffe

The real question isn't what's the best probiotic, but what supports metabolic health? So flash forward, we're now recovering our gut. We're concerned about our metabolic health. Why is that distinction so critical for people?

The right question is, what do you want your probiotic to be doing for you? What is the problem you're trying to solve? And to add to that, you can expect more from next generation probiotics, and you should be looking for something that's going to boost your digestion and your metabolism, and it's going to help you with your cravings and it's going to help you with your energy and all of those things that fixing your microbiome really can do. And so rather than what's the best probiotic, the question is, what's the best probiotic for me? Am I trying to hit up all those things? And if you are, then you should start looking for these probiotics that have these next generation strains in them.

Before we dive into today's episode, I wanted to say that wellness was never meant to be a solo journey. My name is Mona Sharma, celebrity nutritionist, and that's why I created the Rooted Academy, a space where we can cut through the noise and bring together real conversations, real support, and real healing. If you're ready to be part of a wellness movement that actually guides you towards tangible changes that last, join us inside rooted by visiting monasharma.com all right, welcome, everyone. To everyone who's joining us live. Welcome. I'm excited to get to your ama's. My friend who I said I feel like I've known forever, but we just met at an amazing dinner party with our dear friend, Dr. Darshan Shah. Colleen Cutliff. Cut. Colleen, Cut. Cutcliffe.

Thanks so much for having me.

Say it again. Cutcliffe.

Cutcliffe. Okay.

Welcome, Colleen Cutliffe to Rooted in Wellness.

Thank you. Thanks so much for having me. I agree. We met at one dinner and we just bonded immediately. And I think we have so much stuff in common about how we've come to where we are here. It's just never a straight line. And so excited to dig into stuff with you today.

I cannot wait to hear more about your story because it resonated so deeply with me. Let's start off by, like, the intention of this podcast really so merging Eastern medicine with Western medicine, but also how everyone listening can feel more rooted, rooted in themselves, in their health and their happiness, and almost like this inner knowingness that we have to heal and to know what to do. So can I ask you maybe A personal question. What allows you to feel more rooted in your everyday and who you are and your health?

Well, I grew up in the United States, but I'm Chinese. And so this merge between Eastern and Western philosophies and health and wellness has always been kind of something that was either in conflict with each other or kind of coming together. And so I think that for me, a long time ago, I did this exercise, which I actually encourage everyone to do, which is to write down, like, literally grab a piece of paper and write down what are the most important things to you? It doesn't have to be a long list. Probably should be only be three or four things. And. And what is the prioritization of things that matter to you? And that becomes your compass for happiness? And if every day you are living in a way that is in line with that list, you're gonna feel rooted in health and wellness and peace, really. And if every day you're doing things that are not aligned with that list, it's gonna feel disruptive. And so I think that's just an important exercise and kind of a daily practice to make sure you're living in a way that's aligned with what you think you should be prioritizing.

That's so beautiful. We're living at such a time of, like, just deep overwhelm and massive to do lists. And a lot of us wake up and we rush into our day and it's easy to get distracted. Right?

Yeah.

And I know you'll probably mention later, too, just the feeling of gratitude and kind of like narrowing everything in brings more of a sense of peace and calm, which we're learning is impacting our gut microbiome and taking away stress. Yes. But I'm curious, like, also because of your. Your healing journey, and for a lot of the men and women who are sitting in that chair because we've gotten to a place or someone in our family has gotten to a place of health imbalances, we're very aware when we drift from the things that cause us to feel rooted. So do you notice when you're drifting, are there certain habits that you have to cause you to feel uprooted from who you are in your health?

Well, I would say it's probably the people around me who notice more.

Yeah.

For many of us, it's, you know, your friends, your family, your spouse sort of saying, what is going on with you? They're usually the, I think the early warning signals that something's not quite right. And I think it happens when, like I said, If I'm acting in a way or I'm prioritizing things in a way that aren't aligned with what I know are the priorities for me, like I miss a kid's event and that's to do something for work, and that's not my priority. Right. And so those are the moments where you don't even necessarily know that that's the thing, but then it just triggers, like, just disappointment throughout the rest of the day or throughout the rest of the week. And so I think those are. Those are moments. And the other thing is I'm. I'm pretty religious. And so if I want to have, like, my weekly sermon and, you know, I don't have to go to church, but I have to get that sermon. And now everything is available online, that also helps keep me grounded in there are things bigger than me out there. And that's just really helpful and calming to know.

Yeah, I love that you brought that up again. It goes back to that overwhelm. And I think when we pull back and find whether it's connection to ourselves, connection to others, or connection to a greater cause, kind of lessens the grip of the intensity of life, especially these days.

Yeah. And I'd say the other big trick is learning how to say no to things, because there are going to be a million people who are going to want a piece of you, and they're going to want things from you. And being able to say no to that is your way of saying yes to the things that actually matter to you. And so that becomes an important discipline.

I think so. Good. It's a superpower to say no.

Yeah, I think so.

You're a busy lady, you know, sharing before the show. So excited to have you on as an expert, as a scientist, to be able to speak to the gut microbiome. We hear from so many doctors, we hear from so many men. But I think that your approach and the way that you speak about the gut microbiome and digestion, you make it so much more tangible for us to understand. You have a plethora of information and science behind being the CEO and co founder of Pendulum Therapeutics. So let's start off with this concept of digestion. It's a hot topic. Everyone thinks that the gut microbiome is simply digestion when it is so much more than that. And your work is tying all of this together. And I have a feeling you'll say that in what we're uncovering about the gut microbiome. We're still in the early stages of Uncovering this ecosystem within us and what it can do. But can you share a little bit about how the gut microbiome now is so much more than just digestion?

Absolutely. And, you know, all of us, I think, do believe and know fundamentally that our gut microbiome is important. People are. A lot of people have been taking probiotics. They try to eat. Well, they're eating kimchi, trying to, you know, drink kombucha. And so I think. And there are all these phrases that we use all the time. Oh, that's my gut instinct. I've got butterflies in my stomach. All these emotions that we have, we tie back to our guts. And so inherently, I think we all know that the gut is so important. But this is one of those cases where science is finally catching up with kind of what we intend to intuitively know. And it wasn't until kind of DNA sequencing technologies became available that 20 years ago we could actually start to understand what is the gut microbiome and what is it doing. And the biggest, most fundamental thing that we've uncovered is that traditionally, if you go look in like a med school book or biology book, there are 11 systems, 11 organ systems in our body. Every one of them is tied to the microbiome. And so we now know that the microbiome is tied to every one of your systems, which means that it's tied to every one of your ailments and. And health and everything that you're feeling and doing. And so how do we start to tap into that? That is kind of the magic of the microbiome. And that's where we sort of think about the microbiome is more than just digestion. The microbiome is all of your biological systems. How do we tap into it?

How do we understand it, too? It's funny, people always ask me how I get my kids to make better food choices, which isn't easy, especially, you know, as they get older.

Yes.

But something that I've done since my kids were little is getting them in tune with their bowel movements and their poop. I talk about poop all the time with my clients, and they notice a difference in their digestion when they consume foods that tend to be less nutrient rich. So things that are packaged, or maybe the pizza and, you know, chip birthday parties and stuff like that, but there's really no other way. Like, if we could. If we could get more information or at least have access to understanding the gut, seeing what happens. Most doctors aren't running things like stool tests or aren't Even asking about digestion, there's more awareness around when we were off or when our digestion was off as an opportunity to tune into the healing that needed to take place.

Absolutely. And it's so funny that, you know, we as a society, we're constantly building tech and devices to measure every little thing about, you know, the biometrics of our body. And yet the still the most powerful metric of whether you have a good gut is your poop.

Right.

I mean, it really is. And I talk about this, but for anybody who's out there listening, you know, imagine, are you someone. Have you ever pooped and then turned around and looked in the toilet at what was in the bowl? If people are being honest, I think everyone would raise their hand and say, yes, I do that. Maybe you do it every single time you poop. And the question is, why? What are you looking for? Why are you looking in the toilet? But why are you annoyed when there's too much toilet paper in there and you can't see your poop? And it really does come back to this caveman information that what you're looking for is your poop is an indicator of what's happening inside your body. And the reason you're compelled to always look at it is that your brain is sort of clocking baseline. Okay, this is what my poop is supposed to look like. This is what it's supposed to seem like. This is what it's supposed to, you know, come out. How often am I supposed to go? You kind of are tracking that all the time in your brain so that when it is off, you know something's wrong. I mean, it literally is our biggest diagnostic tool.

Absolutely. So look at your poop.

Look at your poop. Don't be embarrassed. Check it out.

Yeah, teach your kids. We have to start doing this more often. Thank you for clarifying. I want to dive into the work that you've uncovered. You know, 80%, 88% of Americans are metabolically inflexible. Inflexible. So what discoveries, what findings have you found in the lab that associate the gut microbiome and gut bacteria with this metabolic dysfunction?

Well, one of the really interesting things that happened once people started to be able to look at the gut microbiome is they started to discover that there are some differences between people who are healthy and people who have metabolic syndrome. So all the way to having, you know, full on type 2 diabetes. And maybe one of the most interesting things is that it wasn't just like, oh, we studied a bunch of Americans and We saw this difference. It was global. It was in Europe, it was in Asia, it was in Australia, it was in the US and people started reporting these comparative studies where they were showing that there were just these differences in people that had metabolic issues versus people who didn't have metabolic issues. That was the first thing that said there might be something interesting here. The second thing, and this is gonna get a little bit gross, but there are these. There's a procedure called a fecal microbiome transplant, and it is exactly how it sounds. You literally give someone your shit. So you take stool from one person who's healthy, and you put it into a person with diabetes. And some of these studies that were done, a few of them, they showed that when you did that, you could actually see better insulin sensitivity. In other words, you could resolve their metabolic syndrome by just simply doing a microbiome transplant, a stool transplant. And then that tells you, okay, there's something in that transplant that is conferring of benefit to these people. So you take the data of what's the difference between the sick person and the healthy person. Can I start to understand why those differences might be important for metabolic health? And then you look at the fact that you can now have a curative component, and you're off to the races. You're like, there's something there. And what we have discovered, let's fast forward 20 years of research, is that your gut microbiome is. Is actually where you metabolize the vast majority of your food into all these molecules that are really important for your immune system, your inflammatory response, and a little thing called GLP1. So all these drugs out there, these GLP1 drugs, they're actually mimicking your body's natural hormone, a GLP1 hormone that is stimulated by your gut microbiome and by very specific gut microbes. And we now know what those are.

Wow. And it's so important to know that we make that already, right? It's a peptide.

We make that already. And more importantly, you can start to lose parts of your gut microbiome over time through taking antibiotics, simply through aging, through travel, actually your circadian rhythm. When it changes, you start to lose some of these microbes. When we women go through menopause, we lose these microbes. And so when you're depleted in these microbes, your body is now not able to make as much of its natural GLP1. And so now you start to look to external ways to improve that, but you actually could. Talking about getting, you know, rooted in wellness, you can improve the roots of your gut microbiome, biome and supplement those back and get back to being able to make your own GLP1 and be metabolically healthier.

We're going to dive more into metabolic function with GLP1 and the amazing Pendulum products, which I'm going to share about. Let's go back to something that you said. This isn't an American issue, a U.S. issue. This is a global phenomenon. And that really surprised me there because typically, if I'm educating my clients, the words that we're hearing a lot of are variety and diversity. And I kind of made the assumption that that was an issue, the US because of what we done to what we've done to our soil. But if this is a global issue, what are some of the common contributors then that are causing this?

Well, McDonald's, I think. Stress. Soda stress. Right. I mean, we're in some ways it's an awesome thing that we are a more global, globally connected community of people. But the downside of that is then we also spread all our bad habits to each other. And so when you look across the board, globally, at the diet, which is one of the biggest waste influencer microbiome, you start to see that there are some commonalities like the depletion or the reduction in fiber intake and polyphenol intake. Those are kind of global things that are happening that we. The increase in, you know, fats in high fat foods, in processed foods, all of that is sort of happening at a global level. And so it's maybe not surprising from that perspective that you're seeing this global increase in obesity and metabolic issues. And to your point, also a global increase in anxiety and stress and digestive issues. All of those things are. They're coming together.

Yeah. Amongst adults and children. Right. Which is really frightening.

Yeah. In fact, it was so crazy. I read this article that talked about infant baby car seats, how car seats for infants used to be a certain size and then all the manufacturers had to make them larger because babies were getting fatter earlier and earlier. I mean, that's how early we're talking about it starting.

Yeah, I'm talking all the time around, like going to schoolyards and stuff like that. I've never seen so many obese children. And it's not a judgment on the parents, it's sadness because I'm sure a lot of these parents are doing things that they think are normal or are right, but it's just become too accessible to have access to these foods. And then we have a school system that's selling them the garbage food. That's nutrient void, which is causing the issue to begin with.

Yeah. The most convenient and the least expensive foods, which is what everybody looking for. Convenience and inexpensive are the worst for your health and the worst for your microbiome. And so that's a different system. We could talk about another day.

Yeah, exactly. What's interesting, if I'm, you know, you mentioned your ethnic background from my South Asian background. There are two cultures who spent a lot of time focusing on food, food preparation. There was a lot of variety of fiber, probiotics and prebiotics and stuff like that in our diet. I found myself often saying to my clients, instead of going on a diet, just try eating like your ancestors.

Yeah.

And for the first time last week, I was met with somebody on the other end who is a younger female client. She's like, I don't even know what that, what that is anymore. Like, what does that look like? She was Eastern European. But I think that there's something so powerful if we just like, forget this diet mentality, just simply go back to what your ancestors were eating. You'll probably see it's a lot of those polyphenol rich rich foods, nutrient rich foods, lots of good quality fats and things that came from the earth that help our system thrive.

Absolutely. And those foods are going to help you, help you have a thriving gut microbiome. And when you have the right gut microbiome, all these cravings that you get, all these crashes that you get, those will go away too. And so you start yourself on a, you know, a really good hamster wheel, which is to say that once you start replenishing your body with these kind of more whole foods or more ancestral foods, you'll start to have a more diverse, in a good way, microbiome. And then you'll find that all these other things will begin to resolve themselves. So you start to get benefit after benefit from it.

I want to go back to the fecal transplants. Okay. For a second.

Let's talk about poop.

Let's talk about poop again. Just because I know that there's also been other studies around depression and anxiety through fecal transplants. How far are we in terms of looking into the future on when this can be used as a modality? It sounds really gross to think about, obviously, but is this the direction of where things are moving in order to restore the body?

I think it's a, you know, throw the kitchen sink edit kind of a solution. So there are certainly places where the Efficacy of the fecal microbiome transplant, like in Clostridium difficile infections, is incredible. And, you know, when death is on the line, you'll take that fecal microbiome transplant. And so I think in those cases, they really are making their way much more into practice, into clinical practice. I think in other places it's harder because there is a safety issue with.

Oh, I can't imagine.

Yes, because as you mentioned, we're still very early in our understanding about the microbiome. And so when you do these transplants, you're transplanting everything, and so you don't really know if you're getting everything along with it. And so there are cases that have been published showing, for example, a woman had a C. Diff infection, she received a fecal microbiome transplant from another person, and then all of a sudden, after that, it cured her C. Diff infection. But she started to have metabolic issues, and she'd never had those before. And so you're really transplanting a lot of unknown into a person. And so I think where it's starting is the fecal microbiome transplant tells you that there's something curative in that transplant. And where we have to get to, where the investigation and the money and the time and the energy has to get to is distilling down. What are the parts of that that are actually leading to that benefit, because that's the actual product that you want to make that safe and reproducible and palatable.

Yeah, literally. Yeah. It seems like such an extreme also. I'm like, we've really gotten to a point where we're looking at this. Of course it's going to be used for extreme cases. But just going back to the roots of healing and what our gut needs, that's what fascinates me. So gut healing digestion is literally probably number one. Number two that I'm working with on most. With most of my clients. How far back do we have to look? You know, we think about, again, if we're talking about poop, we're looking at the here and the now. But as we were sharing stories prior to recording, my gut issues go back to, like, when I first got here as a baby and growing up, being put on antibiotics so many times over the years. So do we need to start all the way back there to maybe understand the lack of biodiversity that we have?

I think for some people, maybe for many people, we do. That's really where the root is. And there was a really compelling story. This is one of the reasons I started my company. The study came out in 2012. It was from Marty Blaser at NYU, and he showed that infants under six months old, infants who were on a lot of antibiotics, were later on in life more prone to obesity and diabetes and these chronic illnesses of metabolism. So it wasn't like, okay, when they were two, they had issues. They were under six months old, they were on a lot of antibiotics, and now you're looking at them as teenagers and adults and you're seeing they're more predisposed to these metabolic issues. The Mayo Clinic repeated that study a few years later, and they showed that kids under 2 years old, if they're on a lot of antibiotics later on in life, they're not only more prone to obesity and diabetes, they're also more prone to allergies, asthma, adhd, celiac disease. All of these things that show up later in life were the result of an early start where you completely decimated your microbiome and somehow never really replenished it or could recover from it. That's not like a lot of terrible, shitty news. But the good news is that you can actually fix your microbiome. So unlike your genes, your microbiome can be modified and you're modifying it all the time. And so the hope of the microbiome is you can change it, you can replenish it, you can get yourself back to a more beneficial microbe, diverse microbiome that can help you with all of these issues. So that's really the name of the game. It might have started way back early and you can't rewind time, but you can make up for that today.

That's such a good point because it invites the opportunity to just do further investigation to your past. So with my son, I ended up having an emergency C section with him. Didn't even read the part of the book because I was so just. That's not going to happen to me. And sure enough, it saved. It saved him. So I ended up nursing him. He was breastfed for about 14 months and I was giving him a probiotic at birth. And I just remember as a mom, feeling the guilt like, ah, I screwed up. I didn't give him that first dose of probiotics and what is this going to do to him in the future? But he's been really healthy. But I would say that making consciousness choices to make up for that has really been at the forefront. And maybe for listeners, whether you were a C section baby or if you'd had to have a C section with your child. But let's dive into maybe the repair that can happen from that. So what are some other things that people should be doing just for. Just for gentle repair?

Yeah, absolutely. I think. And this is just to say that if you are, if you need to go on an antibiotic because you have a bacterial infection, you should go on it. So in no way are we saying that you shouldn't go on an antibiotic, but what we're saying is that when you're doing that to be mindful and conscious that you have just depleted your microbiome, and so you got to start planting some new seeds. And I think about it like a garden where, you know, you had a few weeds growing in it, you had to go on an antibiotic to kill it. But the only antibiotics that we have available is like splashing bleach all over your garden. So you, you really kill everything. So now think about that. You want to go back to having your amazing garden, you got to plant a lot of different kinds of seeds in a lot of ways. So the most important way that you can replenish your microbiome is through the food that you eat. And so if you've been a terrible eater or you felt guilty about stuff you're doing, this is a time where you can just reset the whole thing. So it's a great opportunity to reset with high fiber foods, foods that are high in polyphenols. These are going to feed your microbes. And also you can give it a 1, 2 by not just eating the foods that are going to feed the good microbes, but also supplementing with those important keystone, fundamental microbes at the same time. And that's going to get you back to potentially even a better state than you were in before.

Beautiful. There's good news. That's the highlight, something that I love that you said. You said that the real question isn't what's the best probiotic, but what supports metabolic health? So flash forward, we're now recovering our gut. We're concerned about our metabolic health. Why is that distinction so critical for people?

Yeah, it's an important. You must get asked this all the time. I get asked all the time, what's the best probiotic?

Probiotic. What do I take? What's this one? That one? This one's trending most online.

And yes, I love this packaging. This one feels very sciency. And so I think the reason, I think that that's sort of the wrong question to ask is because the right question is, what do you want your probiotic to be doing for you? What is the problem you're trying to solve? And to add to that, you can expect more from next generation probiotics. So rather than asking what's the best probiotic out there? It's what am I trying to solve? If you're trying to solve digestion and beyond, and you're really trying to capitalize on all the latest microbiome science, then you should be looking for something that's going to boost your digestion and your metabolism and it's going to help you with your cravings and it's going to help you with your energy and all of those things that fixing your microbiome really can do. And so, so rather than what's the best probiotic, the question is, what's the best probiotic for me? Am I trying to hit up all those things? And if you are, then you should start looking for these probiotics that have these next generation strains in them.

I want to take a quick break from today's episode to ask if you've ever felt overwhelmed by all the conflicting health advice out there. I get it. My name is Mona Sharma, celebrity nutritionist. And that's why I put together with my colleague Dr. Mark Hyman, 12 Essential Wellness Tips, the foundational principles we live by to optimize energy, digestion and longevity. These are simple science backed and rooted in ancient healing traditions. Register now to get your copy of the 12 tips@monasharma.com backslash 12 tips. I'm curious, like, what's one of the biggest myths that you see with probiotics? And two, for listeners who maybe have been on the same probiotic, who are dealing with the same strains of bacteria for so long, for so many years, at what point do you diversify? Do you tell your body by taking the same probiotic strain for so many years to stop producing that probiotic? Is there truth to that?

I don't know that I've seen any evidence of truth to that, but what I would say there's some evidence of is that switching to a different probiotic with different strains could be helpful because you might be just replenished well enough on what you've been taking. And so you could move to another one to kind of increase the diversity. I think there are a few different. First of all, the whole probiotics and supplements industry is complicated.

Oh my gosh. Especially now. Now more than ever before.

Yeah. I mean, have you ever walked into a grocery store or a convenience store and just looked at the shelves and shelves of things you're like, what is this? Do I? Do I want this? And so I think some of the myths of probiotics that have been, frankly, more marketing gimmicks than they have been based in science are more CFUs are better.

Right?

And so when you look there, you know, people are 30 billion CFUs, 100 billion CFUs, 500 billion CFUs. And so, you know, more is not always better. And again, it gets back to this question of what do you want your probiotic to do for you? It's not about how many of that are in there. It's about what the content is. And to be honest with you, you know, in this case, you don't even know if those more things are going to do anything more for you. I just liken it to coffee. Like, I love coffee, but I don't need 100 cups of coffee a day. You know, I'm good with two. That does the trick. And so you don't need probably 500 billion CFUs or whatever. It's. What are you trying to solve? So I think the first thing is, don't worry about the CFUs. What you should really be looking at is what are the strains, what are the ingredients that are in here? And when you look at ingredients and you start looking at labels, you'll notice on most probiotics, almost every probiotic, the label will say either bifidobacterium at the beginning or lactobacillus at the beginning. It's pretty daunting to read these labels of probiotics because there's these words, they're so long, you can barely pronounce it. They're so long. But if you just look for the first word, lactobacillus and bifidobacterium, you'll start to see that. That most of the probiotics on the shelves, that's what's in them. So the second myth. The first myth is that more CFUs are better for you. The second myth is that all these probiotics are actually different from each other. And so I encourage people, much like you do on probably many other things that you buy, to start looking at labels and familiarizing yourself with them, because you'll start to realize the different package in the different box is still housing the same pill, Right?

Yeah. And the diversity, which is key.

And the diversity is key. Exactly.

And what about another myth now? So we're hearing about shelf stable probiotics versus refrigerated probiotics, and if they have to be refrigerated, then you might be wasting your Money.

That's a great one. Well, first thing about shelf life stability that I didn't know, that I've learned through my business is that that is mostly dictated by supply chain people. Yes.

It won't go bad.

Exactly. If you think about Target, you don't want to have things on the Target shelves that are going to go bad. And so there are requirements about how shelf stable and how long your product has to be able to be shelf stable simply because usually people aren't buying it the minute that you manufactured off the line. And in some ways that's why I think a lot of people like to buy directly from the company because you are getting kind of the stuff in that way as opposed to going to the shelves where, you know, you don't really know how long that's been sitting on a truck to get to the store and then sitting on the shelf before it makes its way into your home. So shelf life stability I think is important, but mostly driven by supply chain requirements. Shelf stable versus refrigerated is interesting. Some people feel like if it's refrigerated it must be more potent. And I think the important thing here is that there are certain strains which in manufacturing have been able to be made shelf life stable and some of them haven't gotten there yet. And so they require refrigeration. And so the question is for the most viability of the ingredients that are in that box, you might need to be refrigerated. And in fact, for our products, for example, one of our products does require refrigeration because one of the strains in there is kind of a diva and it needs to stay refrigerated to stay viable. But most of our other products don't require refrigeration. There's no difference in quality between the products. It's just about, you know, whether we were able to figure out how to get something to be shelf life stable versus refrigerated. You know, it's like milk. You can buy milk that's refrigerated. Frankly, a lot of the milk that's out there today you can buy, it's room temperature stable.

Got it. Yeah, that's true. So what about the argument then of the acidity and the heat of your stomach acids burning off whatever bacteria that you're taking and it not, not making it to the gut microbiome, that's really important.

So when you think about the journey, yes, the journey that has to be made from, you know, taking a pill to your gut microbiome. So if you think about that. It's almost like somebody trying to infiltrate into a building. It has to make it through your stomach acid. So when you think about your stomach is there to digest foods, it's the first place where digestion happens. There's all this, you know, is highly acidic in order to help break down foods. And there's also these mechanical forces that help you break down your food. So the first thing is your pill has to make it through that first, you know, you know, the floor is lava moment. It has to be able to survive the acid of the stomach. And the second thing is once it gets through the acid of the stomach, it has to make its way through the digestive tract all the way to the distal colon. So you need to have something that has a time delayed release. So when you are looking for a good probiotic that you it's gonna make its way to the gut microbiome. When we talk about the gut microbiome, what we mean is that it has to have an acid resistant capsule and it has to have time delayed release. And the third thing you should look for is live probiotics because if it makes its way all the way there and it's dead, that's really not as helpful to colonization either.

Right. Okay, thank you for painting that picture. You're in the labs, you are a scientist. So the encapsulation process and having it time released is something that's going to enable it to make it to where it needs to go. And I understand the aspect of the diva that needs to stay alive. So that really, it really helps just make the distinction because I think we're hearing it's either black or white. But I think it really goes back to the reputation of the company and all the science that Pendulum is putting out there also. So thank you for clarifying that for people who are listening. I know that there's a lot of imbalances that are attributed to the gut microbiome. So when I'm in an audience and I'm asking a room full of people, how many people here have food cravings, poor sleep, irritability, anxiety, constipation, diarrhea, all of a sudden like every single hand in the audience is up. But can you attribute this, like, who is this all a reflection of the gut? I mean we're all, we're saying that dysbiosis in the gut microbiome is the source of inflammation and imbalances that could be related to all of these symptoms. Is there treatment truths to that?

All of these systems are tied through the gut microbiome. Now, I don't want to be a hammer that sees everything as a nail. So it's, it's. The truth is it might not be your gut microbiome. Your microbiome might be perfectly awesome and it's something else. And so, but it's an often overlooked part of the body. And so we talked about this earlier. Is your physician asking you about your gut. Is your physician tying all of it together into maybe one, you know, problem that is really, you know, in your gut microbiome? And I think it's often an overlooked system. And so that's why people often don't look to it or realize that it needs repair. And one of the other things that happens to many of us is that things are getting worse for us, health wise. But they happen at a pace in which it's unnoticeable. So, like your metabolism, sometimes you notice it immediately. Like you turn 40 and all of a sudden your metabolism is worse. But, but sometimes it's just creeping up on you. Like, oh, you know, if you Compare yourself to 15 years ago, you would say like, oh, actually my metabolism was better then. I was sleeping better then. I could eat more different kinds of foods then and not have digestive issues. I did have more energy then. And so when you kind of do that look back, you realize there's been this slow decay. And that's where it could really be your gut microbiome. And so replenishing your microbiome. I find this with so many people, which is they didn't even realize they had a problem. So they're saying to me, like, oh, I'm not trying to solve a problem. I'm just trying to be the healthiest I can be. They go on the right microbiome intervention and then all of a sudden all these systems are back functional again. They have more energy, they don't have those food cravings, but they didn't even really realize how much it had deteriorated over time.

Absolutely. And I don't think it's, I think it's fascinating. If we look at ancient healing cultures, whether traditional Chinese medicine or Ayurveda, the first thing that they talk to is, is about, is digestion. And they're looking at your tongue and they're asking about your digestive system also. I think they really understand or maybe it's your digestive agni or the heat or the dampness in your body as really being a source of all those imbalances. So that's a good takeaway for people. Don't ignore the symptoms because they will creep up and often we don't notice that we've drifted so far.

Absolutely. And I think that, you know, all the efforts that you're making to try to eat healthier and be healthier, you know, noticing when they do have these improvements can also take a second. So I would say that it's not like an overnight for most people. It's going to take. I always tell people, give it 90 days. If you're going on a new health regimen, give it. If you're doing it the natural way, it's going to take a second to kind of get back into a good place. But then after that, 90 days, do a look back and, you know, especially if you have a practitioner who's kind of guiding you through all this, you'll really be able to see the difference.

Absolutely. I think it's important. You've called it fiber a few times as being kind of a hero for the gut microbiome, it sounds like. I just got back from a trip at the ashram and I thought as a nutritionist I was doing pretty well on the fiber front. But at an ashram, you were eating, you know, the bulk of your plate is fiber. Different colors, different veggies, some fruits and some grains and stuff like that. It took me a few days to adapt. So for listeners who might be trying to increase their fiber intake, maybe take time, but don't let the symptoms that come up deter you from increasing your fiber. Is that true?

Absolutely. What is, what's the current suggested dietary fiber intake a day?

35 to 40. But most people are getting under 15 or 12.

Yes. Right. So here would be my biggest advice. If you are trying to uptake. Sorry. Increase your fiber intake. Don't try to hit that daily value right away. It'll hurt.

It's going to be painful.

It's going to be painful. So ease your way into it. And to your point, most of us are not getting that fiber intake. And if you try to get that intake in, you're going to realize it's a challenge. But I think looking at how much fiber that you're taking in will be a good indicator, at least to know where am I in terms of how much I'm supposed to be getting and how much I am getting. And then I would just say the. My biggest advice is incremental increases.

Incremental. And is that a principle in your house, like with your girls? Was. Was looking at plant fiber focus at. At meals, at dinner time?

Oh, yeah, my kids. I mean they are sick of me hearing, sick of hearing me say, you know, high fiber. And in fact, at some point I was trying to get, you know, kids love snacks. And so I was trying to get fiber through all these different kinds of crackers. And at some point my husband said, I don't know if you're trying to find the most disgusting crackers on earth, but you've nailed it with some of these. And I'm like, these have the highest fiber in them. But I think that it's hard to get all that fiber in.

Yeah, I wanted to hone in on that because I think that we're going to move out of this. We're in this kind of craze of keto and animal protein. And a lot of people that I'm working with are becoming deficient in fiber intake or fearful that carbohydrates from plants is attributed to their weight loss or the weight gain. Right. There's a fear around carbs, which is insane to me. Part of my healing journey involved eating more carbs and more squashes and different types of potatoes and stuff like that. My body was actually able to heal. So I hope that this takes like front and center stage moving forward when it comes to optimizing gut health.

Yeah, I hope so too. And the fact is that, you know, not all carbs are equal. And so the carbs from your processed pasta are not the same as carbs from a sweet potato. And so I think that is important. And everybody's body is different. And everything that you've been through from birth to where you stand now has shaped who you are and has shaped your gut microbiome. And so fad diets or extreme diets, they might help you in a particular moment, but really where you want to get to is being able to have, have the ability to process all different kinds of foods. And I always say like, that's the goal. The best microbiome is one that can process everything. And so if you are really restricted, you're going to get into this self fulfilling prophecy of having a more and more restricted gut microbiome. And so the more that you can, you might need to do that restriction first, but the more that you can then try to step out and have more and more ability to process different kinds of foods, the healthier you're going to be overall.

That's so interesting. I'm thinking about a lot of my client calls. The ones who have more variety and diversity in what they're eating can go out and have a night where they're eating the pizza or the alcohol or the chocolate cake, and they really bounce back. It's the ones that are on these, like, really hardcore restrictive programs where the second they even taste something that's off plan, they're bloated and it sets them off the following day. And they're really suffering from these. These. These symptoms. So that's a really good point out.

That's right. I mean, the goal of health in general, and maybe humanity in general, but definitely the goal of your microbiome is resilience. Yeah, the goal is resilience. How many different things can you eat? How many different things can you go through? And you are resilient through that. That's really what you're trying to get to. And I don't know if you remember, but there was a time with newborn babies where there were so many products that were designed to keep them away from any kind of allergen that could possibly make them not. Yeah. And so nurseries were filled with all these hypoallergenic things and antiseptic wipes and good Lord, don't let the baby, you know, get exposed to anything. And it turns out that's incredibly harmful to your baby because we are meant to be exposed to all of these allergens so that we can train our immune system on what to be. Get nervous about and what's just part of the earth. And I think that that exposure is really important. And what we've done with these very restrictive diets is to do the equivalent of a baby's room that has no exposure to any allergens. And there might be a moment where you need that, but really, you want to be marching towards resilience.

We've got to move away from this antibacterial, sterile nation that we've gone into. I know obviously after Covid, people got freaked out and worried, but now if my kids get dirty, I'm excited for them. Like, go get dirty. If I see a bug in my lettuce that shows up, I feel amazing. It didn't get killed.

Right.

I'm so happy.

Yes. If it didn't die, this is probably good for me.

Exactly.

Yeah. And I think that exposure is important, especially for kids. If you've got kids, they. They definitely should be out there playing. And there was this awesome study that was done out of Stanford that showed that people who have dogs have more diverse microbiomes than people who don't. And I love that study because I'm a human, huge dog person. But it just. Dogs are out there. They're they're, you know, adventuring. They're in the dirt. They're hanging with other dogs. They're bringing all this stuff back, and it's actually really good for you to hug your dog and have your dog jump on the couch with you. All of this stuff is really healthy for kids through adults.

Get resilient.

Get resilient.

Get dirty. All right, let's shift lanes a little bit. Let's put the spotlight now on Akkermansia. So you called Akkermansia a keystone strain, probiotic. But there's some people through testing who don't have any Akkermansia, or some people who don't have access to building Akkermansia. Can you tell us a little bit about this superhero for the gut?

Yeah. This is a strain that we haven't known about for very long, which is amazing because it plays two really important fundamental roles that have been discovered over the last 20 years. The first thing is that it is the only strain that we know that can. Can directly repair your gut lining. And so, and I'll talk about the two things first, and then we'll get into the details of it. It's the only strain we know that can directly repair your gut lining and the mucin layer under gut lining. And then the second thing is that it's only one of two strains that we know of that can directly stimulate GLP1. So that's about digestion and your structural lining, and it's about metabolism. So in the structural lining one, I think about our gut like a wooden fence. And so I have a wooden fence in my backyard, and when we first moved into the house, it has all these wooden planks held together by glue. Was resilient and strong and amazing. Kept my neighbors from knowing what we were doing. Kept me from knowing what my neighbors are doing. But over time, through wear and tear and just aging, the glue can start to thin. A plank can fall. And now you've got a leaky fence. Your gut lining is exactly the same structurally. You have these epithelial cells. Those are your planks, and you have this glue called mucin that holds them together. And Akkermansia's job is it literally lives at the fence. And it strips away the old glue when it gets old, and it puts up new glue. So it is making sure that your fence is strong. And what happens when you don't have a strong gut lining and a strong fence? Is that similar to your actual fence? You can have these leaks? And so now what that means is all the things that are supposed to be in your gut microbiome are leaking into your bloodstream. And all the things in your bloodstream can be leaking their way into your microbiome. And so you can get these bacterial pathogens, you can get this heightened inflammatory immune response. So if you are low or missing Akkermansia, you don't have the guy who's there making sure your planks have glue on them. So that's the number one fundamental thing that's made it a keystone strain. And the second thing, as I said, it's only one of two strains that we know can stimulate GLP1. So when you eat food, it signals to your body, we just ate food, let's start increasing the amount of GLP1 that we have. And when you don't have Akkermancy and you don't have that GLP1 stimulation, your body isn't processing all the sugars you just ate, and your body isn't signaling to your brain that you're full. And so you get these weird cravings for weird foods at weird times. Your system is basically deregulated. And so that's why akkermancy is such an important strain.

An amazing analogy. That was great. And so this is the tight junctions within the gut that we keep hearing around about, right?

Exactly.

And do you think it's a modern day issue that we're having more issues around leaky gut now more than ever? And is it possible then knowing this, can we have, can we prevent a gut from getting leaky or like the loosening of the fence as we age, as we get older, is it inevitable?

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, is it getting worse over time? It feels like it's getting worse over time. There's definitely more reporting of it over time, but maybe more people are starting to realize that this is an issue.

And we're studying it now.

Yes, and we're studying it now and we're even giving names to it and looking at what the causes are of it and how to repair it. And I think the, one of the really interesting things about Akkermansia is it has never been found in any food or beverage. And that's. People are looking for it like, where is it?

Where can I get it?

Where can I get it? And that's not to say it'll never be found in anything, but to date, no one has found it in any food or beverage except for one place, and that is mother's breast milk.

Wow.

And so the current thesis is you get it from Your mother, and then you spend the rest of your life trying not to lose it.

Oh, my gosh. Okay. I'm saying oh, my gosh because, like, the human body is so intelligent. It's crazy. The more they hear about these studies, just like we are walking, talking miracles, we have to. We have to understand this about ourselves. So with that said, then, are people that are low in Akkermansia, are they the people who didn't have breast milk? Why are we seeing so many people with low Akkermansia?

Yeah, there's a variety of reasons that you might have lost your Akkermansia. One is that maybe you weren't breastfed or. I'll just do a little sidebar here. My first daughter was born two months prematurely, and her jaw strength, because she was so early, was. She just never got the jaw strength to be able to nurse every drop of breast milk that kid got. I pumped.

Wow.

And. And we. And many moms do this. You. You do pumping in excess, and then you store it in your freezer. And then that way, maybe another person can help feed the baby. Or, you know, at the moment in which you need to feed you, you. You've got it sort of stored there. And if you ever stored breast milk in the freezer, you know that you have to warm it up before you give it to the baby.

It takes forever.

Golden milk, and it takes forever. And there are these devices that you could put on super high, and it'll heat it up faster and faster. And I was definitely an impatient mom, and I always put that thing on high, like, the highest it would go. And I threw the pack of breast milk in there and was like, thaw, thaw, thaw. Let's get there. And what I'm realizing now, the advice that I would give to anyone who's doing that now is try to figure out a system in which you can have it not thaw at high temperature, because when you go to those really high temperatures, you're actually denaturing a lot of the proteins that are probably really important for the baby, and you're probably killing the bacterial strains. Like Akkermancy would be killed at a high temperature.

Just like cooking, right?

You're just cooking. Yeah, we're cooking too high. Yeah, exactly. And so. And so I think. So you could. Sorry. To get back to the actual question, though, it could be because you didn't get breastfed. It could be because you got breast. So you had an inpatient mother who was killing all the Akkermans before it got to you. But we also know that you lose Akkermansia when you go on antibiotics, which almost everybody has been at least one antibiotic. We know that as we age, we start to lose Akkermansia. We know when our circadian rhythm changes, when we travel and day becomes night and night becomes day, we lose our Akkermansia. We know that through other kind of just general aging processes in menopause, we lose Akkermansia. And we know when we go through periods of intense stress, we lose Akkermansia. So there are a lot of things that are just part of being a human that can cause you to lose it. And I think the important thing is maybe not harping on, oh, man, what did I do wrong that caused me to lose it, but knowing that you can actually replenish it through direct supplementation of Akkermansia and also through foods and prebiotics that feed that Akkermansia. You can get it back, and then you can create a future for yourself that is much more shiny than what you've been dealing with in the past.

So, again, you're showing us evidence of, despite your best efforts, whether it's to lose weight or boost your energy or anything, just through the. The kind of assaults of modern life or through travel or just having a busy lifestyle, you could become deficient, and that could be causing a lot of your suffering or even your weight gain. And I want to really acknowledge you and kind of celebrate pendulum on addressing this. Can you talk to us about the products then that you have that help people rebuild Akkermansia within their system?

Yes. Well, when we first started the company, this is about a dozen years ago, literally, we were really looking for new ways to tackle gut health. And we were looking for this idea of beyond digestion, this belief that your microbiome is tied to all your systems and that you could make products that went beyond digestion. Can we make probiotics that really capitalize on all the things that the microbiome can do? And we found these strains that nobody else had. And in fact, when we discovered them, we really wanted to just be able to buy them and package them up and give them to people to see if it helped people. And what we found was that nobody was manufacturing them. And moreover, when we asked people to manufacture them, they were giving us back dead strains. So we had to figure out how to manufacture the strains. Then we had to figure out how to encapsulate them so that they made their way to the gut microbiome. And then we had to run pre clinical and clinical tests to see did they actually deliver on the promise of improving somebody's health. And so our first product, Pendulum Glucose Control, our flagship product was this compilation of this formulation of five strains, only one of which was even on the market. The other four of which we had to figure out how to manufacture and put together and deliver. But I would say the most kind of, one of the biggest things that I'm grateful for is that when we kind of gave these to people, we discovered that they really could help people. And this is a publication in BMJ that shows that a placebo controlled, double blinded randomized trial that for people with diabetes, they could simply take this pill that gave them back these microbes and their A1C and their blood glucose spikes could be repaired as well as a drug. But with this natural product, it could lower your A1C and lower your blood glucose spikes through this microbiome intervention that was huge.

Without making any other changes, without making.

And in fact we asked people to not make any other changes. No behavioral changes, no dietary changes, just simply introduce these microbiome strains to your body and it could lower A1C and it could lower blood glucose spikes. And we now know it can lower food cravings, all the things associated with GLP1. It can increase energy. And so all of our products are really derived from digestion plus metabolism. And it has been. Look, to be totally honest, if I had known how hard it was going to be, I probably wouldn't have done it. So here, yes, we just kind of took each step as it came and just moved forward. And now we have these really unique products on the market and these amazing stories from people on how much they've helped. And you're kind of one of those amazing people who knows so much about the space and I would love to hear from you what you thought when you first learned about Pendulum and Akkermansia and all these strains.

Yeah, I'm always so hesitant because obviously, you know, I'm sending so much product and a lot of companies will put these kind of star statements on the front of their box and we're told to trust that. But when I look and hear stories about you and as I said, excited to speak with you today, I think it's through storytelling and especially through the eyes of a scientist who can talk about these third party tests that they've done after working on a product for so many years and looking at at the data and what the impact has been. It's the storytelling and the data that you make Available to the public, to your, to your clients that is so important. Like we have to become educated consumers. And it's that reason that Pendulum has always been on my client protocols. And I can definitely say we're talking before the show with glucose control. Taking that daily. I was always the girl who would always have a sweet tooth. Salty than sweet. I would be salty and sweet. Right. One than the other, every single night. But in the past, especially the past four weeks, and I've been very consistent with glucose, glucose control over the past two months or so. I don't crave anything like not even a square of dark chocolate, which I'll give myself. I just, I'm not having any sugar cravings. So that's fascinating. And I guess the add on question to that is when I hear about a product that seems too good to be true. So optimizing A1C markers, lowering inflammation, better insulin sensitivity, improve gut barrier integrity. Do we stay on this long term? Do you become a lifer to this product?

I think it's an important question. And remember when we were talking about what do you look for in a good product? Sort of the acid resistant, the delayed release and the live probiotic. And the reason the live probiotics are so important is because if you can get the supplementation and then you can modify your diet so that you're feeding those strains, they have to be alive for you to be able to feed them. You can get colonization of the strains. And so that means that you don't have to be on the pills forever. Hopefully none of my investors are listening to this, but you don't have to be on the pills forever. And really the goal is, as I said, the goal is resilience. And so there might be moments where you're depleted and you go on the supplementation for let's say three months and then you've got them and you're eating foods that are really supplementing them. Then let's say you have to go on an antibiotic or you go through a period of intense stress. We can't avoid life. And then you might get depleted again and go back on them. And so I think there is a regimen in which you can imagine you're not on them for the rest of your life, but there'll be these moments where you just need to. It's like there are these moments where you just have to go to the spa and replenish and refresh and then you can come back out and you're more resilient to the world. It's like that with your gut microbiome. So if you can get these to colonize, that's really the goal. And that's why you want to look for live probiotics, so that you can actually get colonization. And for some people, it's harder than for others because there are things about your genetics or things about your lifestyle or things that are out of your control that might always push your microbiome to be depleted in these, but you might be someone that can take them for a month and you're good to go. So it really does depend on the person. But the goal is not for us as a company. Our mission has always been to help millions of people improve their health. And we're just trying to give people boost to that. You don't have to be on these products for the rest of your life if you can figure out how to get colonization.

I love that answer, and thank you for that. The way that I work with my clients on supplementation is that you shouldn't have to be on supplements forever. But when it comes to the gut microbiome and knowing just about existing in our modern world and everything that's depleting the gut microbiome, we with something like especially access to Akkermansia, these are things that you want to cycle into your diet, cycle into your supplement routine, stay on it for three months, and then take a month off. And then maybe you come back on it, or maybe you're going through a time of stress or a time of increased travel where you really want to consider this. But I really think that these are hero products that people should have as a baseline for their gut microbiome and their digestion moving forward.

Absolutely, absolutely. And I, and I, I do think that when you go on them like this is my daily routine is that I take my pendulum glucose control in the morning. And there's also sort of a thing that you can feel really good about what you're doing for your body. So, I mean, for me, when I take these in the morning, I know every morning is a new opportunity to reset your day, to reset your intentions, to reset your metabolism. And so what you're doing is you're giving your body, you're starting your day with something really great for it, and then you're on your way through the day, hopefully avoiding things that are bad for you, but, you know, trying your best. And I think that that's really, for me, the daily routine of having this, you know, first thing, microbiome intervention is really also setting an intention and You've.

Also coupled that with all of the other things that are good for your microbiome. Like we started this conversation off with your intention for the day and how you're setting your mood, with taking in high fiber foods, with getting clarity on how you want to feel. Then of course, using supplementation work can be impactful. So for somebody new to Pendulum, where do they start? You've got an incredible polyphenol product also, metabolic function product, also where does someone start and is there timing for different strains of bacteria that they should be interested in?

Yeah, I think starting to understand, you know, what product is right for you. It really is about, you know, what are you trying to accomplish. So I think if you, you really are saying, I want to get the most, I want to get the best digestion, the most metabolism that I can get, you know, metabolic benefits that I can get. Pendulum glucose control is the product that has all of the strains at the highest dose possible. And that's what I would start with. And I would give that 90 days and see if you feel an improvement. If you do and you don't want to stay on that product forever, you can either take a break from it or you can move down to pendulum metabolic daily. That is literally the same strains but at a lower dose. And so that's really, and to be totally frank, it's more affordable because it is a lower dose, it costs less to make and so, you know, we pass it on to the customer. And so that can be more of a sustain kind of a product. If you are working with a practitioner and you are low in Akkermansia and you're really just trying to target. I just want Akkermansia. You can buy the single strain Akkermansia. Akkermansia is in metabolic daily and in pendulum glucose glucose control along with the other strains. But if you're really doing a targeted approach and you're just trying to supplement your Akkermansia, you can buy the single strain. I do recommend people not take a GUT microbiome test and try to interpret it on your own and then go on Akkermansia. I think it's really helpful to be working with a practitioner who knows your whole system because for many people, you know, that single strain alone isn't quite enough. And you really want to be guided with a professional here.

Yeah, absolutely. That's a good call out. And what about taking with food or empty stomach?

That really just depends on the sensitivity of your stomach. Some people can't take any capsules on an Empty stomach because there's something about that that's upsetting to their stomach. But otherwise, you know, you can take it. The more important thing is when can you remember to take it? When can it fit into your routine so that you remember it? Because that's probably the hardest thing to do. But. But if you're pretty resilient stomach, you can take it on an empty stomach. One thing that sometimes people feel like is helpful is taking it with food because that can reduce the acidity of your stomach. So when you eat, it reduces the acidity of your stomach. But these are acid resistant capsules so you're fine.

Yeah, that's a good call out though. I think with anyone with a supplement protocol that could actually be just so therapeutic and beneficial for them is to consider habit stacking. You know, a lot of people forget taking them. At my house, I leave them out on the counter. I know that every single morning when I am having my breakfast, it's just something that I do and that way I don't forget it. It becomes part of my ritual every day.

Yeah, it's all the little life hacks that help you get through this stuff. And so every morning I have coffee and I grab the milk from the refrigerator. I literally have my glucose control sitting next to it. So the milk and the product come hand in hand and I have it with my morning coffee. And I think any little hacks you can do so that you don't have to remember. I don't have to remember to put milk in my coffee, I'm gonna do it. But then having all the other stuff that I need right there is helpful.

Absolutely. All right. I know a lot of listeners are gonna want us to go back to this GLP1 connection. Okay. All right. So with, with these peptides today and now even, you know, microdosing Ozempic and stuff like that, people are just desperate for a solution. Right. And hearing you today is just, oh, oh, my gut microbiome is off. I'm deficient of these bacteria that could actually help me lose weight on its own. Right. Can you just talk a little bit deeper around if I'm going to start taking something like Akkermansia daily through your studies, how soon could I expect to see or feel a difference? And should people be considering this if they're considering going on Ozempic?

Yeah. Well, the first thing is if you go to our website, pendulumlife.com, you'll see that we don't talk about weight loss. And that is a very deliberate thing. And it's because I really don't fundamentally think that people should be looking at weight loss as the goal. Look, if you lost five pounds, maybe I'll put it a different way. If you could convert 5 pounds of fat to 5 pounds of muscle, you've won. You haven't lost a single pound, but you've won in health and better health. And so I think that's really what we're going to be focused on. And when we talk about your body's natural GLP1 and can you go have these products that are going to help stimulate your body's natural GLP1, the goal, the thing to look out for is the reduced cravings of foods that, you know you don't need. Everybody knows the foods that we don't need.

Oh, yeah.

And so like the chocolates and then, you know, my guilty pleasure is like potato chips. And so, you know, if you can reduce the cravings of those foods and reduce intake of those foods, that's actually what we really want people to be focused on because that gets you into the better nutrition and the better cycle of health. So I'll just do that little soapbox.

I love that.

And so I think what many practitioners. I'll talk about what the practitioners are doing because I think they've kind of had to deal with the complexities of these different drugs and the desire for people to have this immediate weight loss. Um, so what we've learned is that there are people who are intolerant to the GLP1 drugs and there are people who don't want to go on any kind of pharmaceutical for them, pendulum, glucose control or metabolic daily, these are great products for them to help stimulate their body's natural GLP1. For people who want to be on the drugs, that don't want to be on them long term and they want to do a step down or a reduce the dose of their drugs. Practitioners are basically pairing the probiotic, you know, pendulum glucose control or metabolic daily alongside the drugs. And usually what we've heard is that they start them on the probiotic two months before they reduce the dose of the drugs or two months before they go off the drugs in order to give the strains a chance to colonize. And then what they're finding is that people don't have such a sharp cliff when they go off or when they reduce. And again, this is really pointing towards the cravings and, and which obviously are related to weight, but are really getting at kind of fundamental changes that will be important for health. So I think I'm not going to say nobody should be on the drugs. They definitely have benefit and certainly there are people who should be on them. But this is a way for you to both take these external drugs which are mimicking your body's natural hormone and also stimulate your body's natural hormone. They work in different ways, but they're, um, they're, they're both great tools to have in your toolbox.

Yeah, yeah. And if someone is going on the prescription work with a practitioner who's really monitoring your levels, your micronutrients and how you're feeling, especially what we're uncovering around like kidney function. And one of my clients who. She's become malnutritioned because she's become so accustomed to taking in so few calories, eating a limited scope of foods. She's not getting any, really any fiber in her diet whatsoever. And it's also now fueling into this diet mentality of restriction that she's become addicted to. Right. So getting out of that, it's going to be a really long road for her. So I always just say, like, if something sounds too good to be true, I know we all want instant. We all want instant. But over the past 15 years of doing my work, the people who come to me, Mona, I want a six pack. I want to be this number on the scale. I want to fit into this dress. When they focus on healing, they get to their goal no matter what. Obviously I work with some people who, they've got to, you know, train for a role or something. They've got to get there fast. We'll do some modifications. But it's funny, it's an incredible thing that happens when you bring your body to function at its best back online. What happens? There's like less of a grip that you have on how hard you have to diet, how hard you have to exercise. You notice an improvement of your, your mood, your energy, your sleep, your. It's just, it's full spectrum and that's what healing should be. It's a full spectrum approach.

Absolutely. And I really hope that the practitioner community is sort of forced to become more and more holistic thinkers because I do think that there's the traditional physicians who, they don't learn anything in school about anything except for prescription drugs. And that's really a problem. They're, they have that. A deficiency in education. And I really hope that there's a way that we can bring this knowledge into the medical community in a more thorough way. Because right now you just have these, this small group and I would say it's a small group of educated practitioners who know how to use all the tools. And then the vast majority are only really working with, you know, a sledgehammer.

Yeah.

Everything else.

Yeah, that's so true. Thank you for expanding on that. I wanted to dive in with you on just how great I think it is that you integrate clinical science, but also with ancient wisdom, how practices like fermented foods and fasting and herbal medicine can really kind of play with what we know about the microbiome. So one of the questions I get all the time, Mona, what do you do? What do you eat? What does a day look like for you when you're focusing on everything that you know about the gut microbiome? You know, some key pillars that happen throughout the day. Can you talk to us about them? This.

Sure. Well, I usually don't have anything except for coffee in the morning. And that wasn't because I was trying to get into fasting. I actually at some point just stopped being. I. I used to wake up and the first thing I want to do is just eat the whole thing.

Yeah, everything.

Yes, everything. And. And I. And I kind of would do that. And I think over time that my body just sort of naturally was like, we don't really need that first thing. And so I actually don't have anything but coffee in the morning. And it's not until about maybe one or two that I start to get hungry. And this is, I think, probably the most important thing. If you're being thoughtful about your gut microbiome, your breakfast, whether it's at 6am or 2pm or whenever it is, it literally is the breaking of the fast. What you've been doing all of those hours when you weren't eating is doing depleting your gut. Every single microbe that's sitting in your gut. Think about it like there's all these players sitting in your gut microbiome. You're depleting all of them of food. And this is your moment to select who's gonna get fed and who's not. And so don't put candy in as the first thing that goes into your body.

Or sugary latte.

Or a sugary latte. Yes. Or caramel topped. Yeah. The first thing you put in when you break your fast is going to decide what's gonna happen in your gut microbiome. And so to the extent that you can start with something that's high in fiber, polyphenols, berries, a, you know, a smoothie, a fruit smoothie, a smoothie that's got greens in it, vegetables, all of these things. They're going to be whatever you eat later on. If you're being thoughtful about your gut microbiome, that's what you want to break your fast with. And so, you know, when I'm being really good, that's what I've got lined up is the first, the first food that goes in is high fiber, high polyphenol. And then it is about diversity of foods and diversity of fibers. And so I think as you think about all of your meals, meals throughout the day, I'm always trying to figure out how do we get more fiber in in different ways. And that's why my kids think I'm fiber obsessed. Everything is about fiber. And we're not. We're not a family that's anti protein. We definitely consume our protein. But I really do think, you know, getting back to what we talked about about resilience, it is about the diversity of the food that you're eating and what you're exposing your body to. And we really avoid processed foods. And certainly, you know, all of the things that are kind of in the middle of the grocery store, we kind of don't really do our shopping there. So I think that's your gut microbiome is best served by the things on the periphery of the grocery store.

Yeah, I love that you brought that up. Yeah. From a young age with my kiddos too, maybe I'm becoming fiber obsessed with them. They're going to start catching on. But morning smoothies, our morning smoothies, I don't load them with anything. I see. So they tend to be hotter. That's part of an ayurvedic style of eating. So we're not putting out that digestive fire, but I'm looking for a variety. And when I'm thinking about some of the fruits and veggies that you're talking about too, fruits and veggies hold a lot of water and hydration, which is so essential to our gut function also. Right. We're not dehydrating the colon completely. And a lot of my clients maybe are listening to this as well, who's just having coffee after, coffee after, coffee after, coffee after. And depleting that hydration from our system might make things a little bit more challenging for you also.

Oh, yeah. Hydration is such a pillar of good health. I mean, that is. I don't know. I mean, water bottles are going to be ridiculous sizes nowadays, but hydration is really so true.

Hey, tell me about this. So a couple of my Clients who were just dealing with some major gut issues. We took our time building up the resilience to increasing their fiber intake. But I kind of encourage them over time to get used to throwing in whatever you have in your kitchen or in your fridge, whether it was berries or melon or different types of greens or sprouts, and just throwing them into a blender and blending them up together. And over time, they would get used to taking in more fiber, but in their smoothies, they would get up to seven or seven to ten different types of varieties of fruits and veggies.

Awesome. It's so awesome. That is great. Yes. And. And there might be a, you know, like, not everybody loves celery, but you throw it into a blender with a bunch of other stuff, you don't even know it's in there. But you're getting all the benefits of it.

You got it. Yeah. Something else you might laugh at. I think of you all the time. When I put sauerkraut out at dinner time, I want it to be the amuse bouche. Everyone at the table, my 7 and my 10 year old are like, what are you doing to us?

Yeah.

How often are you focusing on probiotics and prebiotics in your foods?

Well, I think with the foods, we really think about the prebiotics, so the foods that are going to feed these strains. And, you know, in Asian culture, there are a lot of fermented foods that are just part of your diet. And so we always have fermented foods when we have Asian meals. And the other thing is spices. So spices are really good sources of polyphenols, too, and they can be really good for your microbiome. And so not all kids love all spices, but, you know, those are helpful. And ginger, you know, things like including ginger in your diet. I mean, I remember growing up, my parents talking about, there are foods that are hot foods and there are foods that are cold foods. This isn't about temperature, but, you know, cold foods are like seafood. So if you eat crab, you have to have a hot food that goes with it. And so ginger would be considered a hot food. And so, and this is like, you know, a weird way to describe foods, but this, there's always this pairing of different foods that come together so that you're always kind of in balance. And now what we know is that garlic is actually really good for your microbiome. You know, even has some antibacterial properties that are, you know, beneficial. And so I think that there is something to be said for including Also different spices in your foods.

I love that. Yeah. I always say that your spice and your herbs that are at home, that's kind of like your nature's apothecary that you should be resourcing all the time. So make sure your spice cabinet looks really good. Something that you want to go to. And I love that I'm hearing put ginger in the morning smoothie too, because you're balancing the hot and the cold.

Yeah.

Which I love. Beautiful.

Ginger gives a little kick.

Yeah, exactly. All right, I want to get to some questions from the audience. So Nadia is asking how do I choose what pendulum product is? Right. And I think you've discussed that working with a practitioner is really essential. Starting with Akkermansia is something that, that you can do, but your glucose control is something that you should start right away.

I really do. I mean, I really think that glucose control for 90 days, if it's working for you, step down to the metabolic. Because basically if you start with the lower thing, if you start with just Akermansin, doesn't work for you. You don't know if there's even a probiotic problem or microbiome problem. And so just philosophically, starting with the most potent thing that works for you, then you can start to titrate back. So I would say start with, with glucose control for 90 days and then step your way back.

Beautiful. Eric is asking, I've made so many dietary changes and tried supplements, but my digestive issues persist. What can I explore?

Well, this is a classic thing that we hear and probably you've been working really hard to self experiment and figure out what's going to work or not work for you. And you've probably been trying what you think are doing different probiotics, but they're actually likely the same strains. And so you haven't really been trying things that would potentially have different outcomes. And this is where different strains and the strains that are in the pendulum products could be a benefit for you. And there's, I mean, literally just last week I was talking to someone that you and I both know in common. I won't mention their name here, but they had come to you and they'd been trying all kinds of different products. And it wasn't until they went on the pendulum probiotics that they actually had improvements to their digestion. And I think that that really is. It's a diverse environment. And so just trying to introduce some new strains. And again, I'm not trying to market and be gimmicky about it, but if you try pendulum probiotics for three months and you get a difference, you'll know it's going to work for you. Beautiful. Yeah. Give it 90 days.

Lisa's asking, how do I know if I've healed my gut? This is maybe a good opportunity because like we go on these probiotics, maybe we have some symptoms that persist. But how do we know? How do we know when you know, when do we stop the gut protocol?

Well, it probably has to do with what you thought your problem was in the beginning. So what is the gut issue that you're trying to solve? You know, there's diarrhea, constipation, gas, bloating, heartburn. There's a variety of different things that are bringing you to this moment where you're trying to figure out a solution. And so I think, you know, if you're being mindful and tracking on those things, you'll know when you've hit that moment of I feel successful, I feel like I've nailed it. And that's the moment I am always a fan of. Less is more. Simplify everything. And so that's the moment to start paring back on all the stuff you've been doing, because you might have introduced 100 new things to your system. And if you're better, awesome. That's amazing. Now start cutting them back to what's the minimum thing you need. And you know, as we discussed, there might be moments in time where you have to bring things back into your life. But trying to simplify, I think is always great. But you know, you've gotten there because you started with a problem and you. And you ostensibly know if it's gotten better.

Yeah, I would say anybody who has any acute symptoms work with a practitioner. Right. In our world, we tend to look at a lot of labs pretty consistently and understanding your inflammatory markers. And maybe you are doing a stool test to understand what your actually dealing with. So you know what protocol to use. But definitely don't go to, you know, what's trending, what social media is saying all the time as something, because otherwise it becomes too restrictive and too controlling. And I think that caring for your gut microbiome should just be part of an everyday health practice for life because we now are learning that it's associated with so many of our imbalances and even longevity.

And I'm so excited that people are starting to really know that their gut health is important for them. And I'm so grateful for you for bringing education information about how do you guide people to what should they be doing to improve their gut health. Because I think once you know it's important for you and you start trying to look at what's out there to your point, about what's on social media, it's complicated.

It's complicated. Yeah. I'm so grateful for your insight. I'd love to know, like, what are you most excited about when we're looking at the world of medicine for the future?

I think I'm really excited about the new discoveries that continue to be made about how we can bring natural products into the world of medicine. And I think the microbiome is our entree into that world. And so for anybody who's doing microbiome work that is actually following the protocols of placebo, controlled double blinded, randomized trial, looking at cognitive causation, looking at curative properties, and not just riding the marketing wave of microbiome, all of those people I'm so grateful for that are doing really standup work because once we understand the role of the microbiome and how you can introduce these natural products, we will start to be able to live in a world where you can kind of capitalize on the efficacy of a drug, but the safety of a natural product. And that's the promise of the microbiome.

Yeah. And you know, if you were to leave our listeners with just three takeaways, something that they should start doing today, what would it be?

Three takeaways? One is hopefully after this you feel like you know more about the gut microbiome and want to go learn more about it. So be aware that your gut microbiome is so important to your health and go get educated, go read more, go learn more about it. I would say the second thing is that thinking about your nutrition and getting a high fiber, high polyphenol diet, which can help feed your microbiome, is really important. And then the third thing is, you know, if you don't have one, you should go get a dog because they're really good for your microbiome.

Oh my God, where are my children?

And I'll throw in. Also, please come check out pendulumlife.com we have a lot of educational materials on there so that you can learn more about the microbiome. And then if you're thinking about trialing, I think 90 days is a great way to get started.

I couldn't agree more. You have a wealth of information on the Pendulum website and I'm so grateful for you and for your voice and for your transparency. And what really comes off from you is like your patient centered approach. And I can feel the empathy that you have in terms of speaking about these products and educating about these products, and that's what really stands out. So. So thank you so much. What about keeping in touch with you? Are you on social? Do you like communicating with your audience?

I. Well, I am starting to do that. So I do have Dr. Colleen Cutcliffe, so you could follow me there. And you'll have to be patient because I am just getting started in here and trying to put out content that I think is meaningful to the world. And it's really not about that. That is not about Pendulum. That's about microbiome and all the amazing new discoveries that are happening. And so I'm just trying to be a place where we can bring education to the world. And I'll say one last thing about the reason I started this company and the reason that Pendulum exists really is to improve the health of millions of people through the microbiome. And just a little nugget about how important that is to us. We start every board meeting with a testimonial from a practitioner and a testimonial from a customer so that before we get into all the financials and the business, we all remember why we're here and who we're serving. Hopefully we'll have you on someday.

100. I'll get the testimonial from clients for.

Myself, but that's the goal. That's why we're here. And so really, please do give us feedback. We want the good, the bad, the ugly. Tell us when things aren't working. Tell us what we can do to be better. Tell us the information that you want to hear. Tell it to us@pendulumlife.com, tell it to me at Dr. Colleen Cutcliffe. We really are just here to try to be sources of help.

Please go check out everything. It's going to be in the show notes below. We want more of you, so definitely get that website up and going. I know your girls are going to be on you also to support you. But thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you for having me.

Yeah.