From Med School to CEO: Marketing Insights for Healthcare Brands

You, you're leaning towards. I mean, I'm not the one that's going to make you tip over on this podcast, but did you say you're leaning towards not practicing? You think you might go in fully and just be like, run a marketing business? Is that what you're planning to do? Or just be an entrepreneur rather than practice as a doctor?

Yeah, that's the plan at the moment. So I haven't applied for foundation training and like, the deadline has passed, so there's no going back.

Why do I, why do I keep getting people like this on my podcast?

It.

Thank you for joining us today. Again, welcome to Money Wise Doctor. As you know, most times it's me just trying to teach you how to make smarter financial decisions as a doctor or at least avoid costly, crucial mistakes. So welcome, Tianan. Thank you for joining me. It's an absolute pleasure and it's nice to catch you on the podcast. After we met Face to Face with Coffee. How are you doing?

Yeah, I'm doing well. I'm doing well, thanks. Yeah, it's great to catch up. Again.

Fantastic. I mean, for my audience and people who are listening that may not already know you know your work, they probably have seen your work without knowing that you're the man behind it. So you, you, you're a medical student basically, but that's not all you do. You do, you do, you do quite a bit of work. Do you want to tell us, you yourself, what you do in terms of helping healthcare businesses?

Yeah, sure.

Yes.

So as you said, I'm a medical student, so I'm a year five medical student. I. So I'm in my last year. Alongside that, since I started medical school, I've been involved in marketing as well for loads of different healthcare companies. Initially freelancing and kind of just doing it on my own and then more recently turning that into a business. So Key Socials is a healthcare marketing agency that helps any businesses that either want to target doctors or patients or even medical students.

Wow, that's amazing. I mean, it's very niche, but obviously there's a huge need for it. I don't know, it just sort of reminds me of my days in med school because I started my business in med school. Well, not the current business I run, thankfully, but I started my first business in med school, the second one and everything. So juggling med, which is obviously already very, very intense, and juggling it with running a proper business. Because Key Socials, obviously you, you're doing marketing and not just any odd marketing, you're Marketing healthcare companies in a very targeted way. How are you managing to combine those? Like managing med school on this side and running a business on the other side?

Yeah, it's definitely been difficult. Um, it's been quite a big learning curve actually when I was starting to take the business a bit more seriously and trying to kind of give 50% of my time to each at some points. Yeah, it's basically just been learning to not sleep. But aside from that, I think most of it's just some like time management I suppose and just really specific to do lists both for medicine and for the business so that I'm kind of prioritizing tasks. But it's definitely been a learning curve and I'm sure I'll learn more throughout the rest of this year.

Wow. Wow, that's very interesting. I just sort of remember those days. And you know something, you say you're not getting much sleep. Guess what? The average medical student who's not running the business might also not be getting a lot of sleep. Is an old law, Parkinson's law. Obviously when you've got time and that time is just enough to, for you to fill it with whatever if you haven't got any clear plan for the time. And of course it happens with money as well. Sometimes you can't tell where your money went. Part of what we do in money wise doctors getting doctors to be a bit more intentional or thoughtful about their finances. And with time and money, if you don't have a clear plan, it can just sort of like go away. So well done. You couldn't have been an easy journey to run it from your first day to your final year. So when, why have you gone down this path? And I mean I always had people ask me, are you really a medical student? Are you really a doctor? And you're talking about investing? Because I, I, I was on TV and all that speaking in event and people always ask but why, why have you gone down this path? So I'm posing back that question to you now. It seems a bit obvious to me, but I'm not sure it's obvious to everybody.

So part of it was kind of accidentally getting into like sales and marketing, I suppose. I didn't deliberately set out and think I was going to be interested in that. I just wanted to have like a bit of a side job that I could do from my laptop. Like I needed some extra money basically. Yeah. But when I did that and just started putting more attention towards it, I really enjoyed it. And I really find marketing and sales like fascinating and then starting a business. I've just found the idea of growing a business fascinating. So yeah, I've just really enjoyed doing it. So it's not like I set out to do it. I've kind of accidentally.

Yeah.

Been on the. Enjoying some parts of it. So yeah, it wasn't like I started medical school thinking that I was going to make a business alongside it. It's just happened. Yeah.

Amazing. I mean some of the best things in life, it don't start out all well planned and sometimes it's just by chance and it seems like you found something you're really good at, something you enjoy doing. And for some people it takes them, they find it when they are teenagers. Some people find in their 20s and some people find in their 50s. Hopefully someone finds it early enough to be able. And then you find it and you are fortunate enough to be able to go for it, you know, because some people might find it but they're not able to really go for it. I've seen doctors who. Consultants who we see money wise doctor, some of them in our community who get trapped. Maybe they've got like big salaries but they also have a big mortgage, they have children in private schools and they really want to be coaches, they want to do this coaching thing. They love it. Most times it's not just about the money. I suspect your business, you probably do it if the money was the same as many other businesses, but because you enjoy it. Because a lot of times it's not just so much about the money but you enjoy the nuts and bolts and the challenge and all that. Am I wrong or is it just.

The money that a lot of the time I get asked about if I'm going to kind of continue with a career in medicine or step aside and just do the focus on the business full time. And at the moment I'm leaning towards that. Just stepping outside of medicine entirely after medical school. And one of the reasons I give is that with medicine in my head it seems like the kind of path that you're supposed to take is already laid out. Whereas when I'm growing this business every day, like there's just random challenges that come up that I have to fix or like it's just problem solving in the extreme form.

Wow, that's. That's sort of like the life and the mind of an entrepreneur. There's no carefully laid out path. And you can wake up one day you're firefighting and then you did for four years, five years and suddenly you've got a valuable business that people Want to, you know, acquire or invest in. Wow, well done. But you mentioned something quite big there. You mentioned that you already thinking, well, I'm not sure. Obviously people have different opinions about this and I myself at some point took a whole four year break from medicine, moved to uk, came back to practice and now also left my salary job as a jp. But I enjoy, I enjoy the practice of medicine. I like the opportunity of doing it as a choice, basically, if it's not funding my life or my lifestyle. So you're leaning towards, I mean, I'm not the one that's going to make you tip over on this podcast, but did you say you're leaning towards not practicing? You think you might go in fully and just be like, run a marketing business? Is that what you're planning to do? Or just be an entrepreneur rather than practice as a doctor?

Yeah, that's the plan at the moment. So I haven't applied for foundation training and like the deadline has passed so there's no going back.

Why do I, why do I keep getting people like this on my podcast?

The reason behind it at the moment is I'm not kind of saying I will never go on the foundation training. I've just had five years of trying to balance two different things at the same time. Yeah, I know if I go into foundation training now, I'll kind of continue to try and balance the two and I don't want to keep doing that. I want to give this, you know, my time and attention for a year and I might know at the end of the year decide that actually I miss the idea of like clinical medicine and want to go back into it or I might, you know, not. And I'm kind of just leaving that open. But definitely for the next year I'm focused on, well, after I graduate, at least I'm focused on it.

I think that's very wise. I think that's brilliant. A lot of people sort of step on that treadmill, you know, it's a treadmill. I see people who say, oh, I wish I did this. Because you go straight to med school. Obviously getting into med school in every country, everywhere, is a highly coveted sport. And then you get in and then you go to a grilling, five years or six years, depending on where you train and you come out as a doctor, you're sort of like 1% or whatever percentage of the population is and you're thinking, well, I'm going to step away from this thing and do something else. That maybe a 17 year old boy living in the parents Basement could also claim they do. Quite right. Yeah, but. But the good thing here is that you're being very intentional. You're not sort of just stepping on that treadmill. Because if you're on the treadmill, you go straight from med school, you go into F1, F2, and every now and then, people just did that gap year. Go off to Australia, New Zealand or wherever. Baby Bali these days, and they're back again, and there's another grind on that treadmill. And you're thinking, I could have done this. I've got these goals, but I'll do it at the end of my residency. Before you know it, you're in your 30s or mid-30s or even later, and you're thinking, well, now I've got a mortgage. I've got a dog and two kids. Yeah. So. So I think it's. What's the worst thing that could go wrong? You take out the year. I hope your parents are not hearing this podcast. So they're not gonna hear it. What do they think about it anyway?

So they're completely fine with it, basically.

Are they doctors, then? No, no.

I think the reason that they're quite supportive with it is because they've seen the work that I've put in over the past few years.

Yeah.

Like, I'm just making, like, a rash decision and deciding that it's not for me. It is I've been thinking about since probably two or three years ago, at least. So I think that's why they're kind, very supportive of it. I am lucky for that reason. Like, there's a lot of people that would be really not happy to talk about this, because they'd be like, I don't want certain people. Yeah. Everyone around me has been really supportive about it, which is great.

That's fantastic. Well, I'd be right in guessing, then, that your parents are not Nigerian.

That's true.

I suppose one of the worst things you could say to a Nigerian parent. Well assumed, because a lot of Nigerian children growing up, they want to be doctors or lawyers or engineers. One of the worst things you could say is that I'm leaving my job as a doctor to become a marketer. What are you saying? What are you all about? Yeah, well, that's very good. I mean, it's helpful to have supportive friends and family, because obviously entrepreneurship on his own is hard. It's a hard grind, and it takes a certain kind of person to go for it. But you don't need that extra challenge of having to explain what you're doing or you know, having to always feel like man, some people are made to feel like they're failures still even after they've sold their company for multi million they're like, oh yeah, but your brother is a doctor. That's amazing. That's amazing. Right, so let's look at what you do. So you, you do marketing for healthcare brands. So that would be hospitals, that would be obviously healthcare businesses that target doctors and healthcare professionals and all that. What, what would you usually do for your average. Probably I don't know if you have an average client or think of your best client. Give me an example of what you've done for them.

Yeah, so there's a few different things that we would take care of. Some of it is increasing kind of brand awareness and exposure on social media or through advertising on things like Meta or Google. Other things are looking at getting more patients towards a private healthcare provider. So that those are kind of the two main things. I would say it's either a private healthcare provider that wants more patients and once they just elevate their online presence in general. The other one is people who are trying to increase signups for their healthcare brand whether they're targeting doctors or patients. So regardless of what the goal is, it's either going to be on social media through like content marketing, so just creating posts and trying to grow pages or it'll be on through advertising on Meta or Google or through SEO, so trying to get people's websites to rank higher as well.

Wow, wow, wow. That's quite a bit. And it's sort of healthcare brands, we see them online and I don't mean this in the mean way but a lot of the pages are dreary. It's usually somebody knock together maybe a logo or put up a page and maybe somewhere you can announce things to your patients like we're shot this Friday, the surge is not going to be open. Yeah, maybe you have a Facebook page but obviously if it's a private brand and they've got an incentive to be profitable then it makes sense to be able to get your message out there and get it out effectively. Yeah, so that makes absolute sense. Do you mainly deal with private sort of providers, hospital groups and all that?

Yeah. So typically it is private and the reason for that I think is what you've kind of just touched on, which is if you're a private healthcare provider, you're, you kind of understand maybe that you should have a marketing budget a bit more or you healthier profit margins that you can allocate a bit more to the marketing. Whereas we do work with some NHS providers.

Okay.

But I think the NHS providers that we work with are kind of people who are leading the way in terms of trying to bring their communications online and make them more digital. I think we're still a bit behind from having more and more NHS providers on online, but definitely in the next few years, imagine that we'll see more of that.

Yeah. I think NHS providers, especially in primary care, are becoming a bit more aware of the importance of having a brand online. Maybe have. Even if it's going to be the surgery or the hospital having a brand, but having doctors or healthcare professionals in the practice or the hospital, having a brand online has a way of elevating the overall, you know, brand awareness and also, like, say, public goodwill. I suspect an average GP surgeon will probably not want you to advertise to help them get more patient. But however, they might pay to advertise to tell people not to. To. To try to sort out things at home before trying to book an appointment, like take some paracetamol and take your cough medicine before bringing the surgery line. But I think it's really, really valuable what you're doing and it'd be quite interesting to see how. Where you take it for the next one year or two years or three years. I don't know. I've had someone on this podcast who took one year break and then it turned into seven years. And by the time she was on my podcast, she had. She was running her. And she's now abroad. So whatever direction you go, what is very impressive is that you have a clear sense of understanding of what you. You want to do and you're going for it. So that's. That's brilliant. That's fantastic. Right, so basically I was going to ask you, in terms of case studies, can you give me a clear case study of a healthcare brand? You've said three things now, because when I run my business in med school and also subsequent businesses, depending on the type of. Then the promotion and marketing was different. On campus, word of mouth is easy. It spread like wildfire. If it was something you're doing for students, then there's content, which you mentioned, search engine optimization and ranking, which is a world I understand a little bit. But you've also mentioned an area that, yeah, we don't do that much, but I'm sure, like, it could work with healthcare businesses. That's paid advertisement. And then there's the third angle, which I don't know. If you do code outreach, that's a bit more. That's a bit more markety. I'll say. Cold outreach. Like cold calls, code inboxes, DMs and all that. Yes. All right, the game has changed. HMRC has changed the rules around claiming back taxes for your professional expenses. Thousands of doctors like you have used the guide on moneywisedoctor.com taxreliefguide to claim back several thousands of pounds in tax relief for things like GMC, MD, royal college expenses. And previously you could just walk through the guide we made online and do all of it online and get your tax relief. But now HMRC has made some changes. You can no longer just do it all online. You can start the process online or you now need to post the actual paper receipts to them. Of course you would have known all about this if you are subscribed to the moneywisedoctor.com weekly newsletter. If you've missed out, if you haven't been getting that newsletter, that means chances are that you're missing really quite useful financial insights and tips that we share on weekly basis. So what are you waiting for? Head over to www.moneywisedoctor.com subscribe to make sure they are getting all the insights we're sharing weekly in terms of investments, pension, taxes, ISAs and every other thing that is really quite useful for doctors to make smarter financial decisions and avoid costly mistakes. We jump right back to this episode. So give me a general idea. Just sort of give us a general idea of a brand you've helped. Maybe. Ideally I prefer a healthcare brand like a hospital or you know, practice instead of like help to their.

Yeah, I'll touch on one thing first. So with the cold outreach, which is like you said, it feels a bit more markety or a bit more salesy, there's not a lot of room for that in healthcare marketing. Yeah, you can't cold outreach to people without them. You can't market to a cold audience in healthcare with that sort of direct marketing. This is what makes healthcare marketing really interesting, especially if you're trying to target patients. Yeah, use all those sales and marketing methods that you might use on any other industry within healthcare because patients can't be kind of convinced that they should be more worried about something or a lot of the kind of pain points that you might try and use typically can't be used on a patient because you know, you can't be patient about something. And a lot of cold outreach is kind of centered around that.

So yeah, basically, as myself, as a doctor, even as a patient, if I get you my inbox telling me about there's a quack.

Which is interesting. If I give you some examples of people that we've worked with for people that we're still working with and.

Yeah, yeah, of course. I was just thinking about what you just said and that's an interesting point. I never thought about it. I'm sure there's some regulation about reaching out to patients and all that. The when email was new, I don't know if they are still there. Before we knew how to filter things into spam and the rest of them, the main people that were doing cold outreach for health stuff were always trying to sell you random stuff like penis enlargement or come and do some your hair transplant in Turkey or something like that. Yeah, but that makes absolute sense. Please go ahead, tell me, tell me a case you've done.

Yeah. So one of the people that we work with at the moment are a group of private orthopedic surgeons based outside of London. So they're called One Orthopaedics. So they're quite a large surgeons. So quite a large group of surgeons already quite established in their area. So again, it's quite different if you're a brand new clinic compared to if you're just. Or if you're already established in an area with surgeons, you already have a reputation in that area. So these things also kind of determine what a strategy might be for them. They've already got a really consistent flow of patients that are coming in through each of the surgeons. So what's important for them is to maintain the dominance that they have and kind of add on those extra 5, 10%. Yeah, a lot of that is centered around SEO. So basically finding keywords that they aren't ranking for at the moment or they could be ranking higher for and updating their website with new content around that in order to get them higher up the search terms.

Yeah.

One of the things that we focus on is something called local SEO.

Yeah.

Basically when someone searches for like a doctor near me on their phone, who comes up?

Yeah.

So that's how we track. A lot of our success is when someone searches a knee surgeon in Guilford in a specific area, are we coming up first or not? So that's one of the things that we'll be focusing on. The other big thing that we did for them is we shot professional videography for their short form content. So nice. Around this time last year actually I went there with the videographer and we got a lot of the surgeons to basically just give up 15 minutes of their day. Yeah, a room that we had booked. And then just one of the things that we like doing is just asking questions that a patient might ask. Yeah, really straightforward questions that the surgeons are used to answering all the time. But if we put them on social media, whenever a patient goes to their website and scrolls to the bottom and clicks on Facebook or clicks on Instagram, they can see exactly, you know, the surgeon that's going to be operating on them, telling them what active treatment is or what they should do before surgery and all that sort of stuff. So that's really effective for that plant because they're already really leading in that area.

That's magic. I mean, that's fantastic. Is like they are sitting on gold. You make it sound very obvious. I'm sure it's not very obvious to the surgeons, but this is really powerful because a patient who is googling is. Goes online, is checking for knee surgeon in my area, and then they come across various websites and one just says, oh, this is what we do. And then you actually seen the humanization of the surgeon. It's not just a scal or somebody who's going to cut into your knee. This is somebody who hopefully has a friendly face and looks kind enough and looks like you might be able to ask them questions, rather, they are already answering some of the questions you have. So that. That's really amazing. That's brilliant stuff. And the second thing I'm pulling out from there is, obviously you live in the Southwest, just like me, and I try to reduce anything that makes me travel up there. I realized how busy it must be for you to take all the time to travel to go and do videography. So do you have to do that quite a bit for your clients or just not so.

It's not something that I do very regularly. The really good thing about it is if we go and do videography, it gives us content for between 6 and 12 months, once or twice per week. So it really is quite effective and giving you content for a long time. One of the things that I'll be able to do after I graduate is I want to increase how much of this I'm doing. We see the positive impact that it has. So I'll give you an example. For one of the NHS providers that we work with, the content that always does best for them is random videos that people who work at the practice, just them talking about, like an award that they won for a sport that they like, you know, are involved in. Just random things that, like you said, humanize people a bit more.

Yeah.

It resonates really well with a local audience because I think especially in primary care, people want to get back to the idea of like a family medicine, like, you know who your BP is. And I think social media will be a great way of making that happen if it's used in the right way.

Wow, this is amazing. I mean, basically what you're doing is not just sort of like marketing. I think in a way it could actually improve the overall health of the country because if people are more trusting of the health system, they're probably likely to engage more. We saw a bit of a crisis of trust during COVID when people would sort of like ignore what their local trusted GP surges were saying or what their local public health is seen and take advice from some random weirdos online overseas. And I think being able to connect more with the community in that way is quite an overlooked strategy in the nhs. A lot of times we're thinking about spending more money and doing more big things. If you, if you. There's a guy called Rory Sutherland. I don't know if you've come across him. I love Rory. I'm in love with Rory. Yeah. I don't know why I didn't. I don't know how I've been living without him. But I found Rory recently. I mean, I've been seeing him online for the past few years, but recently I found him and you know how someone comes into your zone and you suddenly binge watch his stuff. And Rory talks about, I'm sure you know about what he talks about. But just for anyone listening, Rory Sutherland is the VP of Ogilvy, so Ogilvy and Mothers, this legendary marketing firm founded by David Ogilvy. I think Mad Men, the movie, was modeled after them. It was. And Rory talks about psychological approach to solving problems. One of the stories he talks about is him wanting more expensive Neurofen, that his headache is not a 45p headache. He has that sense of like a more expensive neurofen kills his headache. And then he talks about a few other stories. I think the most interesting one is about them, is that the HS2 Londoners probably know about this. The high speed train, he said they spent 6 billion building it. 6 billion pounds. And he was saying, just give me 1 billion and what I'm gonna do. Rather than making it faster and doing all that engineering work we're spending and hire the world's top male and female models, put them on the train and get them to be serving, serving as some special wine. I don't know the way he pronounces it and. And then people on the train will ask for it to be slowed down. They don't need to do more expensive engineering stuff. So actually applying some psychological aspects, like having someone online telling you, well, we understand you've not been able to book an appointment, but don't worry, we're here. If you've got a cough or sore throat, take some paracetamol, take this and that, go to a local chemist. Just being able to get that extra reassurance and being able to pass that message in a non robotic way. So it could have a wider application beyond just increasing the bottom line of bad card private practices of whom I have nothing against.

And one of the big things that we've always spoken about, especially with video content, the reason why video content is more impactful is just that more people will see it typically so impression. So how many people are going to actually scroll past the post is typically higher on video content. One of the things that we were really big on, especially last year, was that health literacy in general in the UK is very low. So it's like I can't remember the exact figure, but it's something like over 40% of people don't understand information given to them about their health. And this is coming off the back of COVID really? Yeah. So in general, I think as doctors or people within the kind of medical space we really overestimate how much people know about what they're being told, especially when it comes to the healthcare. And I think it's because we get into this kind of situation where you're talking about a condition every day, probably 10 times per day. So even when you make it as simple as possible, it's very hard for you to imagine it from the patient's perspective, which is when we create videos. My whole purpose of being there is to try and make things as simple as possible and try to ask what a patient might ask.

Yeah.

And then if the doctor answers it in a way that we think is too complicated, we'll just say we need to do that again. Can you explain that in a different way?

I'm gonna have a lot of happy surgeons.

But it is really useful because you can imagine like what you said. It's from a psychological aspect. There's the idea of in marketing, like how many touch points you have with people, then will they kind of like know, like and trust you because of that, if your local GP practice is constantly coming up in your phone with reliable health information that's created in a way that's easy to digest, like you're not bored. You don't scroll past and be like, oh, this is my GP trying to make something funny on Tick Tock. Like you're like, this is actually useful stuff and it's not taking me very long to consume. I think that's the, that's what we're aiming towards so that people can consume health content.

Yeah.

So the person consuming it is happy. The doctors or the, the practice is happy and we're facilitating it in between, basically.

Wow, that's. That's massive. I mean, basically it seems like the doctors I tend to see and follow others who are dancing on Tick Tock or doing some comical stuff. But what you've just mentioned is quite powerful and we see that basically. For instance, let's say moneywisedoctor.com when people come. Most times when they're coming across us or when we get inbound leads or people sign up for the newsletter, it's not the first time. There's that whole 7, 411 stuff. Maybe they've seen us somewhere on YouTube or they've seen a random unsolicited advice on how to make sure you don't go broke when you're a pensioner. Or maybe they've seen something about taxes or investment and then they go to LinkedIn and they see my post and then they find a blog come up when they Google for how to avoid the 60% tax trap and gradually different touch points and in, you know, basically people in business or if you've got like a brand you already know this is part of the game. But a lot of times healthcare brands, especially in public health. So I did a bit of work for public health in Cornwall and okay, I've got a bit of public health background, did a master's in public health. I realized that a lot of times we just assume, well, we've got a good message. We don't tend to want to associate ourselves with marketing and advertising. It sounds a bit more like health promotion, like we're getting the message out there, but basically it's marketing and advertising. Advertisement. You're thinking of how to change people's behavior, isn't it? It's behavioral change, communication and whether you are doing it for profit. What I didn't need to change people's behavior at the end of the day was important is that you're getting an effect, effective outcome, basically. Yeah. So I think there's quite a lot of application for that. Right. So now I. I don't know if you're free to Say or not, how many clients do you have all together.

In your books at the moment? 15.

15. That's quite a lot. That's quite a lot. Amazing. Now, you've only just started one year ago at the beginning of the year. Yeah.

So the business started in January, officially.

Like the structure. The structure, yeah, yeah, exactly.

But beforehand. So some of the clients that we have at the moment, I've been working with for over two years now.

Oh, okay.

I was working with them on my own before I built the team and so on.

Yeah. But, yeah, so just what has changed is you formalized it. You've had a name and you've got a team now working with you. That's what has changed. Rather than previously you sort of like, did it as a freelancer. Is that. Is that correct?

Yeah, yeah, that's correct. So I was. I was trying to kind of learn everything myself as a freelancer, and then as I did that and had basically too many clients that I could handle myself instead. Pausing there, I thought, actually, this is. This is something that could grow a bit bigger and tried to expand it and brought more people on board to help me out with it. So that's kind of how that happened.

That's. That's very nice. Sort of organically grew and all that. Then you hired. Excellent. Now, there are quite a few doctors and healthcare brands. Listen to this podcast. Not as many as we would like, but yeah, I mean, we're less than a year and we've got just about 2,000 subscribers. Hopefully more by the time we air. So if so someone is listening. Who are the type of people, if you wanted to explain the type of customers you have. I've run businesses where I think I'm gonna fire this customer because, you know, I'm. I'm tired of their shit. And those customers who spend quite a bit of money with you and never give you any headache, and they're thinking, oh, thank you for all the good work you did. So those are my ideal ICPs, ideal client profile. So who is your ideal client profile? I mean, tell us what you think they should be doing. And this obviously doesn't mean that someone who doesn't fall in can't get in touch. But you want to tell us sort of like their marketing budget? There's this guy called ad professor.com. yeah, I've forgotten his name. He's a British guy, but I think he's in US now. And he does. He says he deals with people that have marketing budget of $50,000 at least. So what. What Sort of customers or clients are ideal for KISA shelves.

So typically we've got two different ICPs at the moment. I'll start with the. The larger one, I suppose.

Yeah.

So if you have a healthcare clinic that's been established for more than probably two years, your numbers are probably. You've got between 10 and 50 staff members in that area in terms of marketing budget, up to around £5,000 per month.

Yeah.

What we typically find, the people that come to us are people who have already had experiences with other marketing agencies that haven't gone that well or for one reason or another, they need to change to someone else. And typically it's because the previous providers didn't have a healthcare background.

Yeah.

So that's typically what we're looking for in terms of what goals they might have. Either they want to get more patients to their practice in the next, let's say three to six months, or they are already established and they've got a good patient flow, but they want to look at the next kind of 6 to 12 months and think, how can I absolutely secure myself as a brand leader or as a service delivery leader for whatever they do within the next year? So kind of adding on that 5 or 10% extra. That's, that's some of the main people that we work with. We do have other projects that I like to take up. Which is the healthcare brands that we work with.

Yeah.

Which is a healthcare brand that says, look, we need someone to lead on our marketing. You know, we've got. We've got a social media page, we might have a newsletter, we've got a website. We don't really know exactly how to execute properly so that we can get more signups or so that we can get more sales.

Yeah.

And those are some of the really fun projects that we like to get involved in as well.

Oh, wow. So there's the project that make money and then there's fun projects that are just for fun, kind of.

I think it's more that.

I'm just kidding. Come on.

The healthcare clinics that we work with.

Yeah.

We've got a great model now that we know that works where we can kind of. You can come and fit right under our system and we're improving the system, but the system's built with these other products. Because healthcare brands are often very different from each other and they're selling different things.

Yeah.

And they're targeting different people.

Yeah.

There's a much more bespoke approach, which means that we can't take on a lot of Them we can be a bit more selective with who we work with.

That's amazing. I mean, if you're listening, obviously the guy knows this stuff. If you are a healthcare provider, a healthcare brand and you've got a budget of 5k and even establish. I mean, if you've been running for a while or if you tried something that didn't work out, then what could be the harm in reaching out? I'm sure you'll tell us how to reach you at the end. Reaching out. And now I find this thing when you deal with clients that have had bad experiences, they're usually a bit easier to deal with. We've had a recent investment master class. 50% of the people who signed up really quickly, immediately we send out the class offer. I didn't know this as a then, but in the, in the actual investment master class, I think someone started saying, oh, yeah, when I saw your email, I jumped on it because I'd lost money in the past investing, I didn't know what I was doing. And you know, and then someone, that person said, yeah, this was my experience. Then it turned out to be like a confession where people just sort of say, this was my experience, this was my friend. So it was very funny because it turned out that if someone has used a different approach, if someone has used a marketing firm, the people I tend to call the meta marketing industrial complex or that saying, oh, yeah, when I saw your email, I jumped on it because I'd lost money in the past investing, I didn't know what I was doing. And you know, and then someone, that person said, yeah, this was my experience. Then it turned out to be like a confession where people just sort of like, say, this was my experience. So it was very funny because it turned out that if someone has used the sales bro, if they've used a different marketing firm that didn't quite understand that health care, the sensitive beats what you need to highlight. You've dealt with patients obviously in your training, so you always know what are the questions. The different approach. If someone has used a marketing firm, the people I tend to call the meta marketing industrial complex or the sales brew, if they use a different marketing firm that didn't quite understand that health care, the sensitive baits, what you need to highlight. You've dealt with patients obviously in your training, so you always know what are the questions that come up. That's a huge edge for you. So if they've dealt with people who didn't understand these things and then they're suddenly dealing with you, it's easier to see the difference, it's easier to see the comparison. And then that way again people are more appreciated of what you bring to the table and they're not thinking, why are we spending 5k with these guys? We don't know if the patients would have walked in anyway because as usual after the first couple of months or years, it's nothing. Do we really need to spend that much? Yeah. Well that's lovely. So for instance, a business like Money Wise doctor I suppose at the moment we could say we're business, but basically at the moment if you look at it, we, we're not a health care business in a way, we're not a healthcare business, but we serve healthcare professionals, we serve doctors and healthcare professionals. So we probably fall into the second category to come up. That's a huge edge for you. So if they've dealt with people who didn't understand these things and then they're suddenly dealing with you, it's easier to see the difference, it's easier to see the comparison. And then that way again, people are more appreciative of what you bring to the table and they're not thinking, why are we spending 5k with this guy? If you were to give me a master class or an advice, five minutes, master class and you had to say, look, you don't know what you're doing, how come you're still at 2, 000 subscribers on YouTube and 5,000 on the newsletter? Why not 50k? This is what you should do. Go.

Yeah, absolutely. So first thing is, what is it that we're looking to achieve? So you said that you help doctors with finances.

Yes.

What is your immediate short term goal in terms of over the next month? Here's what a really good marketing strategy result would look like for me.

Are we talking realistic goals or just dreams?

Give me both.

Probably say, okay, yeah, we, we don't know if the patients would have walked in anyway because as the usual thing after the first couple of months or years, it's not thinking, do we really need to spend that much? Yeah, well that's lovely. So for instance, a business like Money Wise doctor I suppose at the moment we could say we're business, but basically Light grew at least 20% per month. That's basically how we've been growing for the last. We launched last year, we're going almost 20% per month. So realistically we want to go like 25, 30% and say in the next six months, double.

Yeah, fine. And then my follow up question to that is, are we are we saying that you've got a kind of unlimited budget for this? What is a budget that you would be happy to spend in order to kind of experiment with this in the next month?

How about we say 5k? Let's match 5k for the budget that your healthcare brands spend.

Sure.

So if at the moment, if you look at it, we, we're not a health care business in a way, we're not a healthcare business but we serve healthcare professionals, we serve Doctors and a.

5K spend that you can make from where you're starting from. Now there's a few different things that we might do. The main thing for you, I'm assuming that your conversion comes through your newsletter. So yes, for you, in order to justify spending 5K, you're going to need to get sales at the end of your newsletter at some point.

Oh, okay. Actually blogs, healthcare professionals. So we'll probably fall into the second category. So if you were to give me a master class or an advice five minutes. Master class and podcast, do a lot of the heavy lifting. But yeah, okay. So how to have sales at the end, sort of like a back end product.

You. Yeah. So if I was having this conversation.

And you were to say look, you don't know what you're doing, how come you're still at 2, 000 subscribers on YouTube and 5,000 in the newsletter? Why not 50k decision with you, someone.

Who was just interested in my services and you said look, we're happy to spend the 5k. My immediate answer would or my immediate question would be but what, what's why.

You should do go.

Yeah, absolutely. So first thing is what is it that we're looking to achieve? So you said that you help doctors with finances.

Yes.

What can it justify that at the end of it? Because otherwise we will have this conversation in a month's time and you'll say I've given you 5K. And I'll say, I mean I've. You've got loads of leads and you've got loads of this, your immediate short term goal in terms of over the next month. Here's what a really good marketing strategy result would look like for me.

Are we talking realistic goals or just dreams?

Give me both.

It will probably say okay, yeah, we followers. And then, and then I'll be saying what does that really mean in terms of like to grow at least 20% per month? That's basically how we've been growing for the last my bottom line.

So one of the big things that we would do initially is build A essential marketing funnel. So on the bottom of that funnel needs to be a conversion event of some sort. So let's say you've got an event that you're going to host in the next three weeks. You're going to host the masterclass and.

You'Re going to sell like we launched last year. We're going almost 20% per month. So realistically we want to go like 25, 30% and say in the next six months, double.

It's at £400 a ticket or something like that. That would then give us a specific goal that I can say, you're giving me this £5,000. Let's see what I could turn that into. Yeah, with everything. And let's see what results we actually get from it. Rather than just doing what some, some businesses might do where their marketing budget just becomes something that it's like we just spend that every month and not exactly sure what we get from it. So let's, let's kind of make some specific goals first.

Yeah, I call it the super bowl budget. You know like the super bowl budget where people spend money. Like I'm just gonna spend this $1 million for the next 30. Is that 30 seconds or one minute? And it's just for brand awareness. Now people who do that should be in the same class with Coca Cola.

Yeah, fine. And then my follow up question to that is, are we, are we saying that you've got a kind of unlimited budget for this? What is a budget that you would be happy to spend in order to kind of experiment with this in the next month?

How about we say 5k? 5k for the budget that your healthcare brands spend.

Sure.

So if one of any Pepsi, whoever does Super Bowl. Yes. Clearly a very sound entrepreneur. Not just thinking marketing, you're thinking about the cost of acquisition of the customer and how it translates to revenue for the business. And obviously at the back end you're thinking about LTV, the lifetime value of.

5K spend that you can make from where you're starting from. Now there's a few different things that we might do. The main thing for you, I'm assuming that your conversion comes through your newsletter. So yes, for you, in order to justify spending 5K, you're going to need to get sales at the end of your newsletter at some point.

Oh, okay. Actually blogs have the customer. So if I put in one naira to get one. One pound. Naira is the Nigerian currency. I'm originally Nigerian, so sometimes I think in pound dollar and naira. Yeah. Pounds in the Chinese yen So if I put in £1 to get this on the podcast, do a lot of the heavy lifting. But yeah, okay, so not to have sales at the end, sort of like a back end product, you.

Yeah. So if I was having this conversation.

What is the outcome? And sometimes that outcome is not going to be in a month, it might be in 12.

With you, someone who was just interested in my services and you said, look, we're happy to spend the 5k. My immediate answer would. Or my immediate question would be, but what's going to justify that at the end of it? Because otherwise we will have this conversation in a month's time and you'll say, I've given you 5K. And I'll say, I mean, I've. You've got loads of leads and you've got loads of followers and then, and.

Then I'll be saying, what does that really mean in terms of my bottom line?

So one of the big things that we would do initially is build out essentially a marketing funnel. So on the bottom of that funnel needs to be a conversion event of some sort. So let's say you've got an event that you're going to host in the next three weeks, you're going to host a masterclass and you're going to sell six months.

And sometimes that outcome, it might not be a dollar or pound conversion immediately. It might mean that you've acquired that customer and then down the line they might be more valuable in terms of other sort of like sources of income, whether it's affiliates or partnerships and, and all that. Yeah, but I like that it's at.

£400 a ticket or something like that. That would then give us a specific goal that I can say, you're giving me this £5,000, let's see what I could turn that into. Yeah, of everything. And let's see what results we actually get from it. Rather than just doing what some, some businesses might do where their marketing budget just becomes something that. It's like we just spend that every month and not exactly sure what we get from it. So let's, let's kind of make some specific goals first.

Yeah, I call it line of thinking. And yeah, so that sounds quite good. And it seems to apply both for health care services. Healthcare services want to get more traffic through the door.

Yeah. So if you're a healthcare provider, it does also apply for that, I suppose what the kind of nuance then is how we maximize a budget. So for maximizing the budget, some of the budget will go towards ad spend, which is Purely just lead generation at like the top of the funnel.

Yeah.

Some of it will go towards SEO which is like thinking about the long term place six months down the line content and stuff. Yeah. So I the kind of nuance is being able to think is this a very short term.

The super bowl budget? You know like the super bowl budget where people spend money. Like I'm just gonna spend this $1 million for the 30 seconds or one minute. And it's just for brand awareness. Now people who do that should be in the same class with Coca Cola, one of any Pepsi whoever does Super Bowl. Yes. You clearly are a very sound entrepreneur. Not just thinking marketing, you're thinking about the cost of acquisition of the customer and how it translates to revenue for the business. And obviously at the back end you're thinking about ltv, the lifetime value of the. The customer. So if I put in one naira to get one one pound. Naira is the Nigerian currency. I'm originally Nigerian. So sometimes I think in pound, dollar and Naira. Yeah.

Goal or a long time goal if you're booked an event in two weeks time. Me telling you that.

And sometimes in the Chinese yen. So if I put in £1 to.

Get this card, I've brought you 100 leads that you can retarget in eight months time.

I mean customer, what is the outcome? And sometimes that outcome is not going to be in a month, it might be in 12.

It's a bit useful but it's not, you're not going to be very happy. Yeah.

How about rather than that this month and sometimes that outcome might not be enough. It might not be a dollar or pound conversion immediately. It might mean that you've acquired that customer. Say to me you're going to do SEO even longer.

So for in that instance you'll be much happier with me spending all of my time just building a funnel that tries to convert people in the, in the first instance and we can kind of think about the other people. Yeah, that's kind of the nuance of it. I really like your point on the brand awareness side. That comes up really frequently.

Really.

Where people kind of just run out.

And then down the line they might be more valuable in terms of other sort of like sources of income, whether it's affiliates or partnerships and, and all that. Yeah. But I like that line of thinking and yeah, so that, that sounds quite good. And it seems to apply both for health care services, healthcare services. Want to get more traffic through the door.

Yeah. So if, if you're a healthcare provider, it does it does also apply for that I suppose what the kind of nuance then is how we maximize a budget. So for maximizing the budget some of the budget will go towards ad spend which is purely. But have a specific goal about why they're running ads or they come to me with a marketing budget. Let's say it's like a thousand pounds per month, £2,000 anywhere kind of up to just lead generation at like the top of the funnel.

Yeah.

Some of it will go towards SEO and they'll. They understand that they need. They need to spend money on marketing which is great but they haven't decided which is like thinking about the long term place six months down the line content and stuff. Yeah. So I the kind of nuance has been able to think is this a very short term goal or a long tangle if you're an event in two weeks time me me telling you that what they're going to kind of gauge is success which puts everyone in a bit of a tricky. So that I've brought you 100 leads that you can retarget in eight months time. I mean it's. It's a bit useful but it's not. You're not going to be very happy. Yeah.

How about rather than that you said to me you're going to do SEO even longer.

So frustration because you don't want to just have a marketing budget that's kind of being drained. In that instance you'll be much happier with me spending all of my time just building the funnel. Then you're not exactly sure what you're looking for. And if brand awareness campaigns are fine and especially we run ads locally just to get people to a social media page.

Yeah.

We tries to convert people in the. In the first instance and we can kind of think about the other people.

Yeah.

That's kind of the nuance of it. I really like your point on the brand awareness side. That comes up really frequently really where people kind of just run out find to be quite effective and that's almost like a brand awareness campaign in a.

Sense in a way.

But there's but have a specific goal about why they're running ads or they come to me metrics.

I mean you can see number of signups, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. All we're, all we're doing there is getting people to a page and that's when they're going to use up 5 or 10 with a marketing budget. Let's say it's like a thousand points per month, 2,000 points anywhere kind of up to five and they'll. They understand that they need, they need to spend money on marketing which is great but they haven't decided what they're going to kind of gauge its success which puts everyone in a bit of a tricky of our whole budget.

Yeah.

Everything else is focused on either conversion because you don't want to just have a marketing budget that's kind of being drained or increasing. Well all conversions really it just depends on what the conversion we're looking at. You're not exactly sure what you're looking for and if brand awareness campaigns are fine and especially we, we run ads locally just to get people to a social media page. Yeah, we this so but it's an interesting point that you brought up because it is something that comes up quite a lot. We're trying to be quite effective and that's almost like a brand awareness campaign in a sense in a way. But there's where we need to kind of say right, we need to really define some goals that we're going to use as metrics.

I mean you can see number of sign ups, isn't it?

Yeah, exactly, exactly. All were kind of KPIs in this.

This is why I think, I mean if you're a doctor, a healthcare professional, I think, you know, I'm hiring a marketing consult. I'm sure K socials probably will have a point where people chat with you to see the good fit because if you're getting some random brew of the Internet a lot of times they promise quite a bit, isn't it? But they might be happy to take the first 5,000 and then all we're.

Doing there is getting people to a page and that's only going to use up 5 or 10% of our whole budget. Yeah, everything is focused on either conversions or increasing well all conversions really. It just depends on what the conversion we're looking at is so. But it's an interesting point that you brought up because it is something that comes up quite a lot where we need to kind of say right, we need to really define some goals that we're going to use as without and.

It'S not a scam but they just are not thinking that a second order effect, they're not thinking well I'm just going to spend this money, get a big splash.

But there's no kind of KPIs in this.

This is why I think, I mean if you're a doctor, healthcare practical built in, there's no funnel to handle the traffic. There's no way to capture you know, to get professional. I think, you know, hiring a marketing consultant or firm, I'm sure case such as probably will have a point where people chat with you to see the good fit. Because if you are getting some random brew of the Internet, a lot of times they promise quite a bit, isn't it? But they might be happy to take the first 5,000 and then go without. And it's not a scam, but they just are not thinking that second order effect. They're not thinking, well, I'm just gonna spend this money, get a big splash. But there's no structure built in, there's no funnel to handle the traffic. There's no way to capture, you know, to capture the traffic and make it actually something worthwhile that will ensure that it funds the next round of the marketing budget. So that's quite good. I mean a lot of marketing and promotions and sales. I've had to be self taught and you know, being self taught is painful but you learn your lessons quite well. If you, if you did capture the traffic and make it actually something worthwhile that will ensure that if so I had an E commerce business and I've always had E commerce business and blogs right from my school days and if you went to spend your marketing budget, I didn't get any results. It was very clear you didn't get any results. There would be an empty bank account and there was no one to blame. Yeah. So you had to really learn. Okay, well if I want to spend this money, what are my metrics? When do I decide that it has failed and when do I decide that, look, I need to work on my copy or I need to work on my creatives and all that. But obviously you're doing it professionally now. It means you spend quite a bit of time studying it and, and looking at all the nuances. So that's pretty impressive. And yeah, lovely for that. Lovely. Lovely to get a master class from you in three minutes. Excellent. Right, yeah. I don't want to call, I don't want to ask you anymore if you're going to practice medicine. This is my second time of asking you. I've asked you while we're having coffee and I've asked you now online, I probably maybe ask you in a year's time, see how it goes. But yeah, have you got any pattern words or anything you want to say to let's say not just about marketing. Now obviously you're chatting your own path and you're deciding to do something a bit different. If someone were listening is a doctor or Healthcare professional. I was thinking, should I delve into entrepreneurship? Should I go out and try something else? You're using a bit of an approach where you're hedging your bet. So when we invest, we do a bit of hedging where I think, okay, if there's no shoe, should I go out and try something else? You're using a bit of an approach where you're hedging your bet. So when we invest, we do a bit of hedging. We are thinking, okay, if things go wrong, I'm. I'm short on this side and I'm long on the other side to cover. Yeah. I don't tend to suggest that people do active investing because I've done it for 20 go wrong. I'm. I'm short on this side and I'm long on the other side to cover. Yeah. I don't tend to suggest that people do active investing because I've done it for 20 years and I know the downfalls. But basically hedging. I'm sure you know what hedging is like. Yeah. So you're hedging your bet. You're thinking, well, I'll go off and do this thing for one year. I've not applied. The deadline has passed. But it's not like you've bumped the boats. You've not crossed the Rubicon, but in a way you have because you're not joining your peers, but you're going to have the opportunity that I know the downfalls, but basically hedging. I'm sure you know what hedging is like. Yeah. Of coming back. So that's an approach. So if you were to talk to someone who wants to go off and try something, but they're really quite worried, or they're thinking, well, I don't really know what I'm doing, what would be your advice? What would you say to them?

Yeah, I think there's a few things in it. I think I speak to a lot of people in the years below me.

So you're hedging your bet. You're thinking, well, I'll go off and do this thing for one year. I've not applied. The deadline has passed. Well, it's not like you've bumped the boots. You've not crossed Rubicon.

But I have a business. They come and just ask for advice. I suppose one of the things is I hear a lot of people who are kind of like, they just keep putting things off, even once they're at medical school. Yeah. And they'll say, I'm A bit busy at the moment, but I'd really like to get involved in like health tech at some point or I might invest in XYZ sector.

It's in a way you have because you're not joining your peers but you're going to have the opportunity of coming back. So that's an approach. So if you were to talk to someone who.

My approach has always been just to do things, probably do them badly first and then get better at them. So I always tell them like, you just need to start dedicating some time to this. You're not going to be good at it to start with, but do it. See if you're interested in it and eventually you'll kind of fall into the thing that seems to work for you. If you just keep putting it off, that that time's never going to come or it will come too late. And that's. I think that's one of the things that I can give advice on because.

I. I want to go off and try something but they're really quite worried or they are thinking, well, I don't really know what I'm doing. What would be your advice? What would you say to them?

That just started in year one with trying to do new things. So that's. That's one part of it that's not good.

That's amazing. I mean try. There's never gonna be time when there's never gonna be any extra time. So if you start out to do something and don't worry about doing it, perfect.

Yeah, I think there's a few things in it. I think I speak to a lot of people in the years below me.

Just study. That's. That's a beautiful piece of advice. It's easier to steer a ship that is already on course. It's easier to stay it in a different direction than to get.

They come and just ask for advice, I suppose what the things get it.

Out of the harbor. So it's always better when someone. You start out with something. I know actually I'm getting up to a year doing this podcast and then open a video every week is.

I hear a lot of people who are kind of like they just keep putting things off even once they're at medical school. Yeah. They'll say I'm a bit busy at the moment, but I'd really like to get involved in like health tech at some point or I might invested in XYZ sector. My approach has always been just to do things, probably do them badly first.

And then we just started it out I'll say we say badly, get in front of a camera, just start talking. Maybe we had a mic, but we're still figuring it out. But it turns out, well, we've got like 2,000 subscribers and. And there are more people watching than are subscribed for whatever reason. And if you're watching it and you're not subscribed, now is a good time to hit that subscribe button. Yeah, so I agree with you. Just start out somewhere, do a little bit of it, see what you enjoy, and then go ahead. Yeah. Okay. The second question. Obviously you have done quite a bit of studying in marketing. You have either by practice or by reading or a combination of both. What are the top resources you found very useful or what some of the things you've studied that you found quite useful or practices or maybe what get better at them.

So I always tell them, like, you just need to start dedicating some time to this. You're not going to be good at it to start with, but do it, see if you're interested in it and eventually you'll kind of fall into the thing that seems to work for you if you just keep putting it off. That. That time's never going to come to.

Somebody that helped you to get that sort of. Because I know you didn't get it out of all this anatomy and physiology books.

All of my kind of what I know, the majority of it has come from YouTube. So just watching lots and lots or it will come too late. And that's. I think that's one of the things that I can give advice on because.

I. I just like YouTube. Like. Like now.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

A lot of it has just come from that. The majority of it has come from that. Some of it has come from experimenting with. With kind of new techniques and strategies and them either going well or going badly. But I would say the vast majority of it has come from just watching YouTube videos. So I kind of go through different phases of watching different people and trying to learn from as that just started in year one with trying to do new things. So that's. That's one part of it, definitely, that's amazing.

I mean, try. There's never gonna be time when there's never gonna be any extra time. So if you start out to do something and don't worry about doing it.

Perfect them as much as I can. So at the moment it's Alex Hormuzzi.

I know Alex. Yeah.

And actually kind of in sales and marketing, knowing acquisition of companies but still teaching people sales and marketing and everything else about business. But one of the big standout points and something quickly just study.

That's, that's a beautiful piece of advice.

It's easier to steer, that I try and always keep in mind when I'm making new marketing campaigns is that you have to lead with value. With everything that you do, you have to earn the right to buy a sale. So I think those are two really key points that I'm kind of reflecting on at the moment. And then the third thing is most people don't know who you are and so you kind of have to act in that way. I think people get scared about posting on social media because people get like sick of hearing from them where people.

That is already on course. It's easier to state in a different direction than to get people really don't.

Know who you are. Like, they really don't. And I, I, this is something I have to tell myself as well. It's like if I go from posting three times a week to five times a week, most people see my post.

Get it out of the harbor. So it's always better when someone, you start out with something. I know actually I'm getting up to a year doing this podcast and open up a video every week. And we just started it out. I'll say we say badly, get in front of the camera.

I just don't know who, who I am. But you kind of convince yourself that people are going to get sick of hearing from you or something.

But that's very, that's very humbling and it's also very freeing. Like, nobody cares. I think I really had a stronger version to video. I've been writing now. My first blog was in my first year medical, second year medical school, but I had a stronger version to video. But I had Ali Abdaal. I don't know if you know Ali Abda. He used to be a doctor and then he went off to do YouTube and do some other interesting things and he said nobody cares. He just kept, I just kept coming to me, nobody cares. And look, at first when I thought I wanted to get on video, do YouTube and I'm not a very video like tick tocky kind of person, but I was getting replies in my newsletter, emails, and even some suggestions on the blog with people saying to be nice to do video and all that. But I just kept saying, what will my patients think and what will my college start talking? Maybe we had a mic, but we're still figuring it out. But it turns out, well, we've got like 2,000 subscribers. And then more people watch it than are subscribed for whatever reason. And if you're watching it and you're not subscribed, now is a good time to hit that subscribe button. Yeah, so I agree with you. Just start out somewhere, do a listing and you know, even my dad or my mom could watch this thing or, you know, siblings. I just think, well, he's been a doctor and then he went off and did it, run a business and all that. Now he, he's all over YouTube. He's a YouTuber. That's what he's done with his life. But, but think a little bit of it. See what you enjoy and then go ahead. Yeah. Okay. The second question, obviously you have done quite a bit of studying in marketing. You have about nobody cares. And it turns out actually that what you get is actually positive feedback from all those people. A lot of time they're like, oh yeah, we saw your video. I didn't think of that. That was useful. So. So thank you for that. Actually just highlighting it. Nobody really cares. You might think either by practice or by reading or a combination of both. What are the top resources you found very useful or what some of the things. If everybody's watching and thinking, why is he posting every day? Why is he posting every week? Has it not got any to do? They don't care. They might not even be seeing it. To lead with value. And well, what was the third thing he said? He said, yeah, so label studied that you found quite useful. Or practices or study maybe what value.

Was the first one, which. And it's kind of tied into the second one, which is you have to like earn the right to ask.

You have to, you have to end the right before you ask for a sale. And then nobody cares to somebody that helped you to get that sort of. Because I know you didn't get it out of all this anatomy. And that's really quite strong points. I think Homozy has a very strong ethical bend as well. You see a lot of people look at marketing and sociology books.

All of my kind of what I know, the majority of it has come from YouTube. So just watching lots and lots of.

Those people as a bit sleazy and just going to grab the money. But the funny thing is that selling in a way is helping. A lot of people wouldn't have actually like what we do now. We get a lot of inbounds from doctors, healthcare professionals, something oh, no one I never really knew about. I'm thinking, how did you not know about that? You can claim Back your money Because I did it. I did. Yeah, just like YouTube, like, like now.

Yeah, exactly, Yeah. A lot of it has just come from that. The majority of it has come from that. Some of it has come this whole.

How to claim back your money, taxes and all that, tax relief, how doctors could claim up to 2,500 pounds per taxi.

Even a bit more from experimenting with. With kind of new techniques and strategies and them either going well or going badly. But I would say the vast majority of it has come from just watching YouTube videos. So I kind of go through different phases of watching different people and trying to learn from as them as much as I can. So at the moment it's Alex or Mose.

I know Alex. Yeah. If you do self assessment, although I've done this for many years, how can you say you didn't know? Have you been going through life not claiming back your taxes? And so that sometimes being out there getting the message out is helping. And lots of people think that the things we see and use now that they came into being because they were so good and everyone realized it. But if you go back and look at old ads, you see companies trying to promote electricity, to have electricity in your house and the people just use like whale oil and lantern like good normal people, while we then switch into.

Kerosene and actually kind of in sales and marketing, knowing acquisition of companies but still teaching people.

Now all them Rockefellers are now trying to ask us to use kerosene.

So sometimes people say the marketing and everything else about business, but one of the big standout points and something starts.

A bit of marketing or messaging is really quite important and so it can be ethical and you can sell without sleeves. That's one thing I realize just on that.

So. And it's, it's interesting because especially in healthcare, selling is bad generally. Like people don't like the idea of a doctor selling something to them. In general, in the nhs it's not very common. Like the idea of people doing private practice is kind of even that I try and always keep in mind when I'm making new marketing campaigns is that you have to lead with value with everything that you do. You have to earn the right to buy a sale. So I think think those are two really. It's not looked down upon necessarily anymore.

But it's like you're lower, you're a lower animal.

It's so everything's just a bit warped when it comes to sales and marketing. Key points that I'm kind of reflecting on at the moment. And then the Third thing is most people don't know who you are and so you kind of have to act in that way. I think people get scared of. Really interesting way of phrasing it though, is that marketing and sales only becomes unethical when you don't actually have a really good product or service. So, for example, if I know that I can make you £5,000, I want you to pay me £1,000 in order to do it. But I know absolutely that I can get you £5,000 no matter why you say that you don't want to buy. I should try and convince you because in the end you're going to come out well from this. So if you say it's not the right time, I should try and convince you that it is. If you say it's too expensive, I should try and be like, well, no, it's not, because you're going to get this at the end of it, like posting on social media, because people get like, sick of hearing from them where people really don't know who you are. Like, they really don't. And I, I, this is something I have to tell myself. And at the end of it, you will get the £5,000 and you're not gonna be annoyed that I sold you into it or you that you got marketed and they ended that conversation. Whereas if I don't have a good product and I'm just trying to get your money and then you're going to leave me after one month because as well, it's like if I go from posting three times a week to five times a week, most people who see my posts don't know who, who I am. But you kind of convince yourself that people are going to get sick of hearing from, say it's a really bad service, then that saves the market and becomes very unethical. Really.

That makes absolute sense. It's just like. So I've always had an accountant from day one of getting my James license. I'm working in the UK and if I had to pay my accountant a couple of thousand pounds or whatever, 200 pounds to do my taxes, and at the end of the day I come out better. I come out all right on the other end because I'm not overpaying on taxes. It's a bit ridiculous for me to be upset if my accountant is reaching me and offering me accounting services or.

Like the lucky or something.

That's very, that's very humbling. And it's also very freeing, like, nobody cares. I think I really had a stronger version to Video life insurance Life insurance sales people always considered as the worst and it's not because life insurance is not important. It's because of sometimes they sell silly products to people especially doctors get targeted with nonsensical products like I've been writing now my first blog was in my first year medical second year medical school but I had a stronger version to video but I had Ali Abdaal. I don't know if you know Ali Abdaal I don't even want to start but basically a lot of times doctors fall free they get the wrong income protection insurance there's no occupation specific or they get a whole life insurance which I think is most times absolute garbage so or they get all these weird insurance products mixed as insurance and investing. I'm thinking you've got to separate the two the two do different things. This is not going to be a good insurance. Not going to be. He used to be a doctor and then he went off to do YouTube and do some other interesting things and he said nobody cares. He just kept. I just kept coming to me nobody cares and investing but those industries have been mad by you know sometimes having a lot of not I'll say bad actors financial sales people sort of disguise Thomas Credence Advisors but that doesn't mean that that insurance advisors that offer good service shouldn't be out there telling people what they do. Look at first when I thought I wanted to get on video do YouTube and I'm not a very video like tick tocky kind of person but but I get I was getting replies you I'm making sure that they are because they are helping. I've had a friend who died last year and out of the blues a surgeon that was about that six childhood friend and without going into any details it's sort of like took the message home about having that life insurance income protection. I've had the colleagues GPs who maybe had a spotting accident but they didn't have any they are looking GPS so they haven't got a guarantee salary have a spot in accident and didn't have income protection insurance. And I was like my newsletter emails and even some suggestions on the blog with people saying to be nice to do video. Oh gosh. I mean thankfully they had some emergency fund and since the fallback and all that but I just kept saying what will my patients think and what will my colleague so if someone has said to them look you've got to get an income protection insurance. No, no, no, you need it. I think that they're really helping because if they had it, then they actually help them out. So it's the same thing in selling, if you've got like an option, a solution thing. And, you know, even my dad or my mom could watch this thing. Or, you know, I just think for marketing and I think business owners understand this because they are thinking in terms of, I put in 1000 now he's been a doctor and then he went off and did it, run a business and all that. Now he. I get 2,000. Of course, it makes sense. Yeah. Most times it's a bit difficult to try to sell that to an individual who's not running a business to say, oh, yeah, come on in, come and pay me to do this stuff for you. Yeah. So that's why B2B is always the nice, nice one people go for. Because in B2B, you don't need a massive audience. You don't need massive. It's all about YouTube. He's a YouTuber. That's what he's done with his life. But. But thinking about, nobody cares. And it turns out actually that what you get is actually positive feedback from all India. You just need to target the right people.

Yeah, I agree with you on that. On their BDC stuff.

It'S lovely, lovely chatting with you and I. I'm sure you have a lot of nuggets. Maybe we'll get you back again. Maybe the next phase of your journey, see what you're doing. It's very impressive. You met school a lot of time, they're like, oh, yeah, we saw your video. I didn't think of that. That was useful. So. So thank you for that. Actually, just highlighting it. Nobody really cares. You might think in your early 20s, you're doing a lot already. You have a team, you're getting results. And then being able to think clearly in your 20s and figure out where you want to go is massively underrated. And you'll find out in 10 years when you're in your 30s like me. It's massively underrated because when you're in your 20s and everybody's watching and thinking, why is he posting every day? Why is he posting every week? Has not got anything better to do. They don't care. They might not even be seeing it. To lead with value. I'm not. I don't mean this in a condescending way, but I feel I'm talking about myself. When I'm in my. My twenties, you haven't quite developed your guts, instincts and gut feelings. You haven't got a God, you got a flat washboard abs. You've got a suspect so you don't have a God, so you don't get gut instincts or guts feelings and well, what was the third thing he said?

He said yeah, so lead with value was the first one which. And it's kind of tied under the second one which is you have to.

Like well along the line you sort of like developed with experience, developed instinct and for every 23 year old watching this, I don't have that many 23 year olds watching my podcast. They're usually in their 30s or 40s but if you're watching that obviously you are the exception that proves the rule. So congrats. Well I was lovely to chat with you unless people want to find you. I know you're on LinkedIn. You do write really quite useful, clear, you know, insights on marketing for businesses. And then you said something to me that all the customers have come to.

You earn the right they ask, you.

Have to end the right before you ask for a sale and then nobody cares. That's really quite strong points. I think Homozy has a very strong ethical inbox. Inbound had never liked your comment or bent as well. You see a lot of people look at marketing and say uncommented. That is so true.

It happened again.

Those people are a bit sleazy and just going to grab the money and.

This week actually but someone went from my LinkedIn page to my website and then filled out the form on my website. It but this was absolutely fantastic because they left at the bottom of the comment. By the way, I found you through LinkedIn if this is useful as it's very useful I really, it really helps if I know where you've come from. But yeah that's another thing for why people should just post because all of the people who have come to me.

But the funny thing is that selling in a way is helping a lot.

Of people either as short term clients or long term clients. They've very rarely actually engaged with any of my content. They've just either came across my profile and seen some of it and messaged or they've been kind of silently watching in the background and then come whenever they need some help.

So we didn't have actually like what we do now. We get a lot of him.

So even when my posts get 3 or 4 likes I don't really care. I don't really look at it. I just know that I should post all the time and just keep posting.

That's amazing. Bound from doctors, healthcare professionals, something no one I never really knew About I'm thinking how did you not know about that you can claim back your money? Because I did it. I did. Yeah. I didn't really, I mean experience that quite as well myself getting people sort of just go to the inbox they've never liked your post and all that but now I'm getting more engagement on LinkedIn. Should I be getting worried now? It's probably is inversely proportional. If you get a lot of engagement on LinkedIn you don't get to get the inbound maybe not not the same. We'll measure it. We measure it like this whole how to claim back your money taxes and all that tax relief. Good marketing people measure it. Get the metrics and all that. Right. So where is your website and what's your name on LinkedIn? What can people find you with?

Yeah. So the best place to find how.

Doctors could claim up to 2,500 pounds per taxi. Even a bit more if you do self assess. I I've done this for many years. How can you say you didn't know? Have you been going through life?

And it would be on LinkedIn. So it's just my full name. So Tiernan McIver or you can go to straight to my website which is just www.keysocials.com click me back at taxis.

And so that's sometimes being out there.

Getting I'm always keen just to have conversations around marketing, especially in healthcare. So even if you're not interested in coming on as a client anytime soon, if you just want to talk about your funnel or talk about what you could do with your social media. I spend most of my time sending loom videos across kind of analyzing websites so I'm happy to keep doing that. The more I get to do this stuff the better I get at it. So.

Yeah absolutely. Then letting the message out is helping and lots of people think that the things we see and use now. Lovely. We'll have it on the screen. The website and basically a LinkedIn handle and that they came into being because they were so good and everyone realized it. But anyone who wants to check it out could go check it out and thanks for coming on. It's been absolutely enjoyable for me. I like talk about investing, business and history. If you go back and look at old ads you see companies trying to promote electricity. I don't find a lot of weirders who want to discuss history. I have a few, I have a small group. I'll talk about history but it's also nice to have electricity in your house and the people the Electricity one just used to and, and not. Not a lot of doctors want to talk about entrepreneurship today. I had a meeting earlier in the day with an entrepreneur who sold his business for just under 30. I think he was solely for a bit above 30 million when he was under 30 so it was roughly 26, 27. And it is just nice sometimes to talk through things like okay, who might acquire this stuff and why are you looking to acquire use like whale oil and lantern like good normal people while we then switch into Kerala. I mean we're talking about Holdco and the potential in that area. So it's always a nice enjoyable discussion outside all the problems happening in the nhru Zane now all them Rockefellers are now trying to ask us to use kerosene. So sometimes, I mean we can always Talk about down LinkedIn. So thank you for coming on. Have you got any questions or any last things you want to say before. Before you pop off? No, that bit of marketing or messaging is really quite important and so it can be ethical and you can sell without sleeves. That's one thing I realize.

I think, I think we've covered most of it and I'll come on for another episode and in a few months time whenever maybe I'm just doing this full time. So.

All right, lovely to have you turn and have a fantastic weekend and bye just on that.

So. And it's, it's interesting because especially in healthcare, selling is bad generally. Like people don't like the idea of a doctor selling something to them. In general in the NHS it's not very common. Like the idea of people doing private practice is kind of even it's not looked down upon necessarily anymore but it's.

Like you lower your lower animal.

So everything's just a bit warped when it comes to sales and marketing. Really interesting way of phrasing it though is that marketing and sales only becomes unethical when you don't actually have a really good product or service. So for example, if I know that I can make you £5,000, I want you to pay me £1,000 in order to do it it. But I know absolutely that I can get you 5,000 points no matter why you say that you don't want to buy, I should try and convince you because in the end you're going to come out well from this. So if you say it's not the right time, I should try and convince you that it is. If you say it's too expensive, I should try and be like, well no it's not because you're going to get this at the end of it and at the end of it you will get the 5,000 points and you're not going to be annoyed that I sold you into it or you that you got marketed and they into that conversation. Whereas if I don't have a good product and I'm just trying to get your money and then you're going to leave me after one month because actually it's a really bad service then that sales and marketing becomes very unethical.

Really that makes absolute sense. Just like. So I've always had an accountant from day one of getting my gems license I'm working in the UK and if I had to pay my accountant a couple of thousand pounds or whatever £200 to do my taxes and at the end of the day I come out better I come out all right on the other end because I'm not overpaying on taxes. It's a bit ridiculous for me to be upset if my accountant is reaching me and offering me accounting services or like the life insurance. Life insurance sales people always considered as the worst and it's not because life insurance is not important, it's because of sometimes they sell silly products to people especially doctors get targeted with nonsensical products like I don't even want to start but basically a lot of times doctors fall free they get the wrong income protection insurance there's no occupation specific or they get a whole life insurance which I think is most times absolute garbage so or they get all these weird insurance products mixed as insurance and investing. I'm thinking you've got to separate the two the two different things. This is not going to be a good insurance, not going to be a good investing but those industries have been mad by you know sometimes having a lot of not I'll say bad actors financial sales people sort of disguise the mask advisors but that doesn't mean that insurance advisors that offer good service shouldn't be out there telling people what they do and making sure that they are because they are helping. I've had a friend who died last year and out of the blues a surgeon was about 36, a childhood friend and without going into any details it's sort of like took the message home about having that life insurance income protection about the colleagues GPS who maybe had a sporting accident but they didn't having they are looking GPS so they haven't got a guarantee salary have a sporting accident and didn't have income protection insurance and I was like oh gosh. I mean thankfully they had some emergency fund and things to fall back on. So if someone has said to them, look, you've got to get an income, protection insurance. No, no, no, you need it. I think they're, they're really helping because if they had it, then they actually helped them out. So it's the same thing in selling. If you've got like an option, a solution for marketing. And I think business owners understand this because they are thinking in terms of, I put in 1000, I get 2000. Of course it makes sense. Yeah. Most times it's a bit difficult to try to sell that to an individual who's not running a business to say, oh, yeah, come on, come and pay me to do this stuff for you. Yeah. So that's why B2B is always the nice, nice one people go for. Because in B2B you don't need a massive audience, you don't need massive media, you just need to target the right people.

Yeah, I agree with you on that BDC stuff.

It's lovely, lovely chatting with you and I. I'm sure you have a lot of nuggets. Maybe we'll get you back again, maybe the next phase of your journey, see what you're doing. It's very impressive. You, med school in your early 20s, you're doing a lot already. You have a team working with you, you're getting results. And then being able to think clearly in your 20s and figure out where you want to go is massively underrated. And you find out in 10 years when you're in your 30s, like me, it's massively underrated. Because when you're in your 20s and I'm not. I don't mean this in a condescending way, but I feel I'm talking about myself when I'm in my, my twenties, you haven't quite developed your, your gut instincts and gut feelings. You haven't got a gut. You've got a flat washboard abs, you've got a six pack. So you don't have a God. So you don't get gut instincts or gut feelings. But along the line you sort of like developed with experience, developed instinct. And for every 23 year old watching this, I don't have that many 23 year olds watching my podcast. They're usually in their 30s or 40s, but if you're watching that, obviously you are the experience.