How Doctors Can Get into Pharma, Health Tech, and Consulting Careers

I elevate and empower doctors and leaders.

Oh, my God. This might be the high point of this podcast industry.

Are desperately needing, like, doctor and say, doctor talent and leadership.

I left medicine for four years because.

I went to Nottingham, and Nottingham are for people who think outside of the box. We guarantee it because we've seen consistently over the last few years, it's big doctor energy.

So today is a special edition. As you can see me grinning from ear to ear just because I've got a special guest. I've been on her podcast, but prior to being on her podcast, I've been trying to get her on my own podcast because she's the queen of alternative careers for doctors. I'll just give you this quote, which is basically from the website. We are doctors on a mission to connect 1 million doctors with the best diverse and alternative careers for doctors. And of course, it all sounds like talk. Anyone can talk. Except that she's been doing it for the past 10 years. She's not just a doctor, she's an entrepreneur and she's been a mentor to thousands and thousands of doctors. And I'm talking about the founder of Medic Footprint and also sort of heading doctors in industry. So help me make welcome Dr. Abena Babas Jones.

Oh, what a warm welcome. Thank you so much, Andy. It's a real pleasure to be here. On the other side, how does it.

Feel being on the other side being interviewed as a podcast host? How does it feel?

Oh, it's great. Well, if you've listened to any other podcasts I've been on, it's. It's a really great experience because I can talk more and I can also interview you at the same time. I have this. I have this way, you know, I.

Know I'm going to be learning that. Yeah, it's very, very different energy because when you're on a podcast. So I've been on maybe 12 podcast this year. Yeah, it's been quite a few podcasts. And when you're on a podcast. Yes. You're trying to make sure the sound and video and everything is going all right. When. When. When you're the guest is a bit different. Right. So let's get right into it. I know you're busy women when you're not busy running businesses, you're occupational physician, so you're consultant occupational medicine. When you're not doing that, you're busy running half marathons in your spare time. Who does that? I can see the medal you've got on as well. Yeah, excellent. Let's have A look.

This is literally my proudest achievement of the year, I have to say. Long story short, I went to Palmer Mallorca. It's part of a reunion of friends. And it just happened that they were organizing this marathon and I'm not a runner, but I, I was at a point where I was like, actually this is an opportunity to improve my fitness and get out more. Like the actual process of. Wow. Preparing for this, it was like, I wasn't sure because it gives you the option of 5k, 9k, half marathon, full marathon. So I thought, yeah, it's more interesting because the. The other ones are just on the coast.

Yeah.

And so, yeah, I went for it and did it. And so I had two. Two goals. One was to finish.

Okay, that is a big goal.

Yeah. One was to finish and two is not to stop running. And I achieved both of those. There was only one point where I slightly, very slightly, and that was only because my kids were at the side of the road cheering me on. So I ran back and gave them some kisses and kept running. They were handing out like, drinks and, you know, bananas and stuff. And like, I would literally run, pick up a drink, drop it, keep running, you know, like, there wouldn't be any stopping. There were toilets as well. When I started, I realized I really needed the loo. But I was. I'm not stopping for that either. So. Yeah.

Oh, no. This is so inspiring. Such a pump. And I mean, as a committed member of the Non Runners club for the past 10 years, you might make me give up my membership now. The last time I did anything long distance like that was more than 10 years. That is so brilliant.

Yeah. I mean, like, for me, the only I say long distance I did was when I was living in South Africa doing trauma surgery around 2010. Um, there was this. I lived in Limton Zini, which is on the coast. It's a beautiful nature. And they had this 10 as, you know, 16K beach, sorry, bush run, which is like basically cross country around this reserve. And I only heard about it the day before. The people I, the people I was living with, they were like runners. And they were like, yeah, it's like only 16k, it's not much, blah, blah, blah. And anyone could do it. And so again, like, my mindset was like, oh, anyone can do it as well. Just it. And so I did it. There was some walking with that one because some of it was on the beach and the beach had. It was very soft and I was like, I cannot walk, I cannot run on this. So but, but yeah, again, it was like my mindset was like, it's inevitable. I'm just going to finish this, so I'm just going to do it. No training, like zero training. And that was, that was the only other time I've done a race.

That is crazy. I mean, I live in Devon, Cornwall, so I trained in Cornwall. So that you run on the beach. It's lovely. It's good for the feet as well. But it is kind of had that sinky feeling, isn't it?

Yeah. When it's soft, it's just like, it's really hardcore.

I'm going to come back to this run because obviously you went to Palma, you thought the best way to see the city wasn't to walk around to get on the bus or something. It's just to run around, just to run around, honestly. Again, come back to it. And it seems like you didn't quite have that long time to prepare for it. And then the last time you did something monumental like that was when you were in South Africa. Now, if you're an ultra marathon runner and you heard me call 16K monumentals. Yes, for a minute. Just allow it for now. But 16k is quite a bit of a huge achievement in my own sort of like view. But there's that big power of the role of naivety to not sort of like, oh, yeah, oh, 16k is no big deal, I think. I wonder how much of that has played a role in your whole career as you started out, Maybe in your 20s as a doctor in training. I'm going to come back to that. But before we get lost, because you're a woman of many parts, this is.

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How do you introduce yourself? How would you. If someone came up to you and said, give me just one minute. Page 60 seconds. Who is Dr. Bella Baba Jones?

I elevate and empower doctors and leaders.

Oh I love that. That sounds so high level now. I mean we say it's like I help doctors make smarter financial decisions or I help doctors avoid costly mistakes. But this is now elevate, this is.

What I teach man.

You know I'm looking at your LinkedIn, it says I'm bringing you with me. I want to go. Just looking at that, I want to go. That's amazing. So let's jump, jumping into, right into that. Let's say, okay, let's break it down a little bit more. What does that really mean?

What is elevating empower? I mean it basically means what it is. It is bringing the best inherent talent out of some of the most ambitious and talented people in the world to ensure that they can really do their best work at impact, at scale and do it whilst being happy, healthy, non burnout and sustainable and enjoying life.

You are demonstrating that you know when, when people come to doctors in industry or alternative careers in medicine part of what they learn I suppose is speech. How to sort of like have that social pitch. Introducing yourself here, you've given us a one minute master class, even a few seconds master class because that, that leads me to say tell me more. It's not, it's not like oh yeah, all right, okay, you just, you've got it for him now I'm thinking what is it? It takes a bit of a courage and boldness to say what you do in that setting. Confidence.

Right.

There are a few more things you do that outside being a doctor but as usual you can do, you can do anything. But like, like you say sometimes you can't do everything. Obviously I know you're a classically trained, you know, musician while I'm a self trained pianist that only plays for a small audience of one or two.

I mean that's incredible. That is honestly sel self taught people I, I like hats off to them. So yeah, hats off to you. Hats off to you. No matter how small the audience. Well you can scale that you know any day.

This is, this is about you. I think I was playing around when I was 14, I was playing for small audiences of Weddings and all that stuff then you have to choose what you do. But yeah, so for someone listening who didn't really quite get the full impact of what Abena does so you run a platform called medic Footprint Prince and for the past 10 years, I didn't say 10 months, I mean 10 years someone would have been in medical school, out of medical school, got into a training midway, probably if you're in GP training, my almost be done.

And I've seen, I've seen people go through that journey, you know, I've seen them from medical school to. Yeah, you know, which is great. It's really rewarding. It's really, really rewarding to see people as they progress through their careers over time. I never anticipated that I'd be still be doing this over after a decade, to be honest.

It's very satisfying to see that huge impact. So now that is part of what you do. But also recently you've got. Well, you've been doing it for a while, but it seems it's being crystallized. Doctors and industry, doctors who want to go straight from being clinicians don't really know where to start from and then want to go into areas like pharma consulting, health tech may have the skills, but don't yet know how to put them together and put their best step forward. So that's where the elevating comes in, isn't it? You elevate them. Right, okay, so why did you start all these? There's a certain type of person who says, well, I don't want to just be a doctor by the clinic, clinic bedside. What led to all this? I'm curious, Effy.

And actually it's so funny because I just do. I just came from conducting our stage two interviews with a doctor for the fellowship who actually asked exactly the same question. And it's quite difficult because my journey started before I even got into medicine. I think that's the case for a lot of doctors who end up going on this journey. And for me, as you know, it was either musical medicine, as, you know, going to med school or university. And I chose medicine because it was just like, you know, the sensible option. Yeah, yeah, the sensible option. However, I had all this creative power within me and skills within me that just wasn't nurtured as a doctor, wasn't really valued. And again, it took time, it took what's within me as well to then start looking at other options. Look, and that long story short, it took me to South Africa doing trauma surgery, which I loved. And I realized, actually I do love medicine. It's just a system that was the issue because, you know, working South Africa in the public health care system, great, but also has its own challenges, you know, So I realized I did love the practice of medicine and the opportunities that, that were way beyond what we were told. Because I remember going to medical school, you're told you're either going to be a GP or you're going to be a hospital medicine doctor. And that's about it, you know, that's it. And actually that's not it, but that's generally what you would. That's what they're training for you for, basically.

Yeah.

And so it was that that opened up my mind and then conversations with a variety of different doctors who I was working with, who knew of doctors who had left or have developed their careers again. It was all myth and folklore at the time. And so developing medic footprints was really to open up and, like, just dispel all the myths and, like, basically present the realities of the variety of options out there and the pathways on actually getting there. Really. So very much community seeking, community, storytelling, inspiration, opportunity and wanting to do something outside of the nhs. I realized that when I ended up in Blackburn. For those of you that didn't know Blackburn, because I didn't know Blackburn before I got the job.

It's.

It's north of Manchester and the north of England. Okay. I did love living in the north, but I'm a London girl, you know, so as I can't, you know, why the hell am I still moving around the country for my clinical job? Right? Like, what am I going for? So it's a series of experiences, decisions, and, like, making very focused decisions. Because when I was in Blackburn, I quit my urology training number against the advice of, obviously people, the nhs, and said, I'm just going to move back to London and do urology there. And I did.

And then after, like, a trust grade, though.

Yeah. So it was like. Actually, it was another. It was a lat. It was a locum trainee post. And then I got hematuria in my face. It wasn't the first time I got hematuria in my face, but I remember a very specific moment where I was doing a bladder washout and I was like, no, that's it. No more hematuria in my face. I want something else in my life.

Oh, my God. This might be the high point of.

This podcast, ironically, actually went to occupational medicine to do the whole body fluid exposure thingy. And I just didn't know what I was wanted to do actually after that because, like, I knew medicine was still there. I didn't want to do gp. Yeah, I've been, like, refused from GP a few years earlier anyway, because there weren't even enough jobs around. And then I applied again. I applied again as a urology registrar. I was still Refused because didn't have my foundation competencies even though like, you know, that whole kind of like bureaucratic nonsense. And I was like, hold on a second, I'm signing off these off for my trainees as a registrar. Anyway, long story short, that was the best option and outcome for me and considering what's happening with GPS now and then. My partner at the time is radiologist googled alternative careers found OCMED said did you want to go and look at this? And I did and I wasn't convinced to be fair. I was like, I'm not sure about this but I can see it affords a really great lifestyle, work life balance. It gives you insight into business and you know, I'll just give it a go and do the diploma as my backup in case it doesn't work. And that again was like 10 years ago.

Wow.

So.

Wow.

So yeah, So I mean like that that's the story of medic footprints and alternative careers. And the industry piece is, you know, in developing a business and developing my career and running, you know, there's an increasing realization that the mindset that you need to flourish and thrive in industry is very different from the mindset that's helped you to achieve what you've achieved as a doctor. And because we see more and more doctors transitioning between the two, it's really important that they grasp that early because it will take a very, very, very long time, a lot of heartache, a lot of struggle and actually industry are desperately needing like doctor and say doctor talent and leadership. The problem is doctors at the moment chronically undervalue themselves because that's what they're used to in, in the public healthcare system. This isn't just a UK problem by the way, this is global problem. And that should not be translated to undervaluing themselves in industry because again that's, there's a huge risk of that happening and that is, that is an ongo that that will be a huge problem if that continues in that way because the value that doctors bring in industry is huge in so many different sectors. I mean more doctors doing it in the right way, like making the right impact but without getting burnt out or you know, all of that stuff. So, so yeah, so this is where the Doctors in Industry fellowship has come about is really creating that community, that like minded support community resources, roadmap and training to support doctors with their, that move. Because the framework that we've been given as doctors we've basically been spoon fed, right? And you're like, if you do this, you'll get CCT in industry. There's none of that.

There's no clear pathway.

There's no clear pathway.

Yeah.

And. And you don't have to do anything in that sense. But what you do need to know is yourself.

Yeah.

And not enough doctors know themselves.

Yes. Your strength. I'm going to jump in there. That is already sort of like I felt like I was drinking from a hose. There's a lot of, a lot of great nuggets in there. So I'm just going to start. Basically you. You seem to have taken quite a bit of. You've gone out of the traditional pathway. That is obvious. You went off to South Africa. Not many people go off to South Africa.

Yeah. Because everyone would go to Australia, right? Yeah. I'm not going to Australia. Yeah. How is that much different from what I'm experiencing here?

Yeah, South Africa is different. You have a, a lot of different. And you said you were thinking medicine or music. Okay. If you're any musicians and I have a few of them listening my class. When I was in high school, I was one of the two people that was offering music that was also sort of in the science classes. And you had them like you're a serious person. So why are you doing music? Because music was deemed as music most useless subject in class. Am I doing medicine or am I doing music? But you thought you did the sensible option, which is music and medicine. But it seems down the line decided, look, I'm going to quit my training job, I'm going to go to South Africa. I'm just going to stop doing what seems like the traditional, what people expect you to do. And your choice of going into medicine, even having all those talents and all the skills, how much of it was influenced by your background, like where you're coming from, family and all that, did they have any bearing? I'm speaking from my perspective as an Nigerian born doctor where you're either a doctor, a lawyer, engineer or a failure. Or if you're an Indian.

Yeah, no, I get that. And that that definitely had a very, very strong part to play. So my background, my parents are Caribbean. My mum's from Jamaica, my dad's from Nevis. Genetically I'm 60. Nigerian.

Really?

Yeah, genetically there's also East Africa in me. There's also England, Scotland, Wales. Within me. South. South Indian. I did my genetic heritage. But yeah. So most of it is West African. And you can, you know why? Transatlantic. Transatlantic slave trade.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Actually I did a, did a paper on that across state when I was urologist. Anyway, so.

That one.

Yeah, yeah. So. So. Yeah. And, you know, so ancestors and, you know, family coming to this country, you know, it's all about, you need to get a good, secure, financially secure job. Yeah, right. And because my mum saw that I was. And I say in inverted commas, clever. Yeah. And I say clever and, like, pick things up very quickly. She was like, right, you go to Oxbridge, you're going to do all this, you're going to do medicine, you're going to do law, and I am the first person in. I didn't go to Oxbridge because I really didn't believe that I could. And I. I learned to go to Nottingham, which is like Oxford, to reject.

Oxbridge.

No, I didn't. I didn't go to Oxbridge. I'm glad I didn't because I went to Nottingham and Nottingham are for people who think outside of the box. So you'll see in, like, you know, the whole industry network of doctors, a lot of us came from Nottingham University.

Proud Nottingham alumni here. I didn't do my undergraduate yet. When I said you didn't go to Oxbridge, I was just teasing you. Yeah, who needs to go to Oxbury, where you can go to Nottingham University? Big sprawling campus. Fantastic. You know.

Yeah, we're all outside of the box, thinkers by nature, so Oxbridge would not really have worked for us and that's how we ended up in Nottingham and then doing something completely different.

That's amazing. I mean, if you went to Oxbridge, I didn't have the opportunity to go to Nottingham. That's still alright. You can network with doctors who've been to Nottingham University. If you go to alternative careers, doctors in industry, that will give you the opportunity to get that Nottingham juju.

Absolutely, absolutely. But, yeah, I mean, it's going back to your question. Yeah, yeah. It was very much like, you need to just choose a career that's going to be stable and you're clever. And, you know, the schools I went to, I went to private school, my primary school, I went to a state school, my secondary school, girls school as well. And again, like, it's a school where you either do medicine or law. Yeah, that's. That's what we're training before it's gonna be one of the other. I didn't. I actually nearly didn't get into med school and I didn't get to anywhere, to be honest. And it was like last minute when Nottingham called up and were like, yeah, rejected. Too many people. So do you want to join? And I'm like, okay, and you know, I, I had no issue with my medical, you know, I passed all my exams. No issue. Like five years of med school and then. Yeah. So, yeah, it's just fascinating.

There's so many ways we could go. But you think about your parents. They moved to this country with their first generation immigrants, so.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And they're thinking, what's that mindset here? They're thinking, oh, you've got to go to Oxford or Cambridge and there's just that high expectation. They're not think, well, we've just moved to this country, let's try to figure out where they're thinking, no, sorry, they were second generation.

Sorry. Because their parents were moved and then they moved.

Yeah. But basically they're that thinking, yeah, Aben has got to go to Oxbridge. But that's been a fantastic journey. But you've gone from not just being a doctor, but being a doctor leading millions of doctors in an industry that. And in an area that most doctors struggle. I'll give you a bit of an example if you're listening to this and you're a doctor who wants to move an industry. I left medicine for four years. So after I worked in sort of, I finished my first, we'll call it house job and all that, I went to work in an ngo and during that period I was building a business and doing several other stuff I enjoyed. It was fantastic. So that two years I worked in an ngo. That's where I got a lot of training about leadership and structure, networking, partnership, collaboration. That was usid. I don't know if you know dfid, that's a British version. Yeah, yeah. So there's US side is US version just funded by dfed, usi. Sorry. But when I came over to the uk, so I came back to medicine because coming back to medicine I saw a different aspect of medicine. Four years later when I came in, I realized that if you worked in medicine and you had the flexibility to choose when to come and go, if you weren't entirely dependent on medicine, if you felt you had options, you. I, in my own experience, I started to enjoy it quite massively. I saw a different aspect of medicine. But then when I finished my Masters, this was four years out of medicine before deciding to come back to clinical medicine. Obviously before the last two years ago, when I left my salary JP job, I tried to get into industry. So that was how I started using LinkedIn. So I used LinkedIn a little bit, then went away and came back last year thanks to Abena and some other People. So what I saw there, first of all, I made a spreadsheet. I did all the doctors in McKinsey or consulting firms where I wanted to go to. So I found them online and then code DM them. So you know, I had a bit, I've had businesses in the parallel on campus, so I know how to do copy and all that stuff, code DM them. And then I had like a 60% reply rate and they were incredibly generous and some of them would sort of say, oh, this is what I did. They gave me. That's why when people code DM me, I try as much as possible to reply. I'm not always able to reply, especially if they're just trying to sell something. But when doctors or healthcare professionals trying to sort out their finance and all that stuff, I try very hard to reply, but they gave me such a detailed response, you have to do this, this doesn't work. But there didn't seem to be any structure, there wasn't any clear pathway. So that's why what you're doing in the medic footprint is almost like, okay, if you come into this for 12 months, in the next 12 months you've got like a very high shot of getting into industry. Something that is a black box. So tell me, if someone were to come into, let's say doctors in industry, what should they expect to learn? First of all, what type of doctor do you think would be ideal for doctors in industry?

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Yeah, it's a good question. I wanted to say, like, you know, it's. If you come on this program, we guarantee you'll move to industry because we've seen consistently. We guarantee it. Yeah. Life does not come with guarantees, but we guarantee it because we've seen consistently over the last few years that doctors who engage with our roadmap and our program, they get into industry.

Right. I'm going.

They achieve their goals.

You've just done something big. We're not going to gross a void. So in marketing medicine, nobody says 100%, but. But here's some BDE. Yeah, it's Big Doctor Energy. She's guaranteeing that if you. Yeah. Oh, what did you think it was? This big Dr. Energy. BD. So Abena here is guaranteeing that if you come to doctors and industry as an investor for many years, we always know that if someone says 100%, if you buy treasury bills or bill or guilt, you get money back. That's low risk. So you're guaranteeing it's fine. Now tell us, someone coming to doctors in industry, what's your ideal person coming to doctors in the industry?

They're a doctor. They are. They don't have to be a practicing doctor, but they've had to come from medicine.

Okay.

It doesn't matter what stage.

Yeah, they've been to med school.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't need to finish med school either.

Oh, okay.

But just actually haven't actually been in med school at some point to, you know, having worked as a doctor and stopped for whatever reason. So that, that's a key one. The other is they have to be motivated to develop their career and industry as a high value non clinical expert.

High value being key up there because I've got a lot of doctors who listen to this podcast and I suspect many of them will be interested. So I want to make sure we get it clearly. When you say motivated, what does that mean? How do you check that? It's be hard to.

How so? Yeah, at the moment a lot of doctors are moving because. Or changing careers because they hate the jobs they're in. There are lots of push factors from their current jobs, you know, cultural issues, workforce issues, burnout, you know, and that's fine. But we're looking for doctors who are motivated by the impact and the opportunities that they could get and really contribute towards at scale in industry and they are committed to that journey rather than kind of not sure because like what I say that there is like actually most out of the population of Doctors who are looking to move. We know from our research that they wait at least two to five years plus before they actually do anything about it. So for this program, we're after people who are doing things about it, actually taking action and implementing it. They also need to be coachable as well. And most doctors are. Most doctors are. But they've got to be open to growth, personal growth, not professional personal growth, to achieve the goals that they have set themselves to achieve.

That's it. That makes it quite clear, isn't it? Because if somebody's already taking some steps and one of the biggest indicators we saw in our. So we did our first investment master class, whatever.

Nice.

One of the biggest. First thing we saw is that 70 of the attendants had lost money in the past or tried to invest. And so basically they already saw the value in being trained to understand what they were doing as doctors. So it's quite telling that you've seen people who've tried maybe for two to five years, they already know, look, this stuff is hard.

No, no. So they haven't specifically tried. They've thought about it and done nothing.

Right. They just have thoughts about it.

So those are the people we cannot help. We need people who are like, have either started doing something, so what does that look like? They may have started setting up their business, they may have started networking, going to events. They may have applied for a lot of jobs and just not got anywhere with it or like at the beginning of the journey. And they want to mitigate that journey and the risks involved of it taking longer on your own than it would be with actually that support and accountability and keeping people on track. Because for a lot of doctors, they're concerned about the financial risks of. I mean, like, not everyone wants to leave entirely. A lot of people are doing as a hybrid thing where they do some clinical. We don't. That's not important. But it's just mitigating that, that move so that they say, I've got this timeline, I want to make sure I'm in this role or in this opportunity by X date who we can help.

Yeah. So there's.

Yeah.

This is someone who obviously is clearly motivated. They've got a doctor or they've been through medical school or had some medical background. They're clearly motivated. So it doesn't matter the level of medicine. They don't have to be a consultant or anything like that.

Oh, God, no.

Okay.

Because again, like we're taking away those. Those markers.

Yeah.

Hierarchy.

Yeah.

And credibility markers that we, that we use. Because Actually, that is not as important as you think it is in industry. What's important is really you recognizing where your own value is and elevating that and articulating that and selling that to the right people, to the right audience. And that's the key. And so, so, yeah, so that's why we're like, I always talk about doctors being qualification junkies.

Yeah, we are.

And I'll be better enough if I get this qualification and that qualification and that MBA and all of that stuff. And yes, those things can be valuable, but that is not the most important thing in this journey and it's not a must have either.

That opens up a really key stuff here. I think last week, last couple of weeks, I got, I did a post on LinkedIn that sort of blew up and I tagged it. I think you commented, yeah, it was about Dr. To do MBA. Because everyone said that, oh, do I need to do an mba? And people come to me. It's, it's just crazy, right? Doctors being qualification junkies. Someone came to me so I want to start business and they asked me, so how did you start? Do you think I need to do an mba or then someone comes to do, oh, I want to start investing, do I need to go and take a course or different stuff. And I mean, most time they're thinking about paper qualification. So that's one thing I think doctors in the industry you're dealing with because a lot of people think I need to do an mba. And while an MBA is great, I haven't done one. And as far as I can remember, you haven't done one. But you're, you're sort of like helping several doctors in that area. So doctors think, oh, I need to get my mbbs, then I need to get my Masters. And I worked in Public health before I got my Masters in Public Health, so I knew you didn't need the Masters in Public Health to work in that area. It's the same as business. Right. I know you've got a lot of fantastic, you've had a lot of people come out with testimonials and fantastic outcomes. I want you to give me the top three and the next three minutes, give me the top three that you're most proud of. I know you've mentioned your most proud achievement. This is running on Palma, America. I mean, there are worst ways to run a half marathon, but you've chosen a beautiful place to go run it. But now let's look at the achievement from doctors and industry. Medical prince alternative career as a medicine You've been doing it for 10 good years. So I want you to tell me three achievements you're most proud of. Individual achievements.

I say the first one was running a conference. I've run a few conferences now, but the first conference we ran is probably one of the biggest. Not having done event management before, by the way, or.

Wow.

An event. I remember the first conference in 2015 was greater queen street and the Great Connaught Rooms. We had like 400.

Wow.

Right? First ever conference. Never had run a conference before. Never. You know, and what really stood out to me was like, there are lots of doctors around and it was great. There were lots of different tracks and they were crying, the doctors who were crying. It was such an emotional experience because they hadn't been an environment where their thoughts and feelings were validated.

So this wasn't a conference then. This was more like a revival or really just crusade.

It was a conference. It was a gathering of people who wanted to do doctors who wanted to.

Do different things, careers.

And it was great to get everyone like, like minded people in the same space. So actually I kind of look. Because you know when you do it and you're like, I've just done it, we've done it.

Yeah.

But actually looking back, like a conference management and design and everything is like a skill in itself. This is something like we just did.

You know, back to that theme of naivety again. I've seen that tray. Like no one told me it was hard, so I just.

Yeah, yeah. But I think this is the key because like, you know, in this journey, there's lots of things that no one tells you is hard.

Yeah.

And in some ways it's great that no one tells you that it's hard, but in other ways it's not so great that no one tells you it's hard because especially when you keep on hitting roadblocks and you see this especially in industry setting.

Yeah.

You don't have that kind of that structured path and you keep on getting rejection after rejection after rejection. You don't seem to be getting anywhere. Yeah, that feels like, oh, there's something wrong with me.

Yeah.

Everyone else is like flying. And they made it look so easy. Why is it that I'm. And the reality is it's not easy for anybody. They just don't tell you that.

Exactly.

So you have someone on LinkedIn. I got this fellowship.

Oh.

I got this job and this amazing. But they don't tell you about the they went through together. You don't hear that. This is what this Is why in the podcast I'm like, no, no, tell me, actually, what sets do you take? What challenges did you.

Yeah, yeah, I was on your podcast. You go quite nitty gritty. And I really enjoyed it because anyone can come and make it 10 point steps. That is brilliant. So one, you're on this massive conference, IRL. Because now the IRL.

Yeah.

IRL sounds like it's something cool. But 10 years ago, people actually met in real life. So you did this in real life. So it's not an online conference. Now, the second one, tell me somebody or give me an idea or somebody who's been through the program. Who is flying. I know several. Tell me the one or one of them you're proudest of. Or two. Well, I don't know. I'm asking you to choose between your children here.

I'll choose one of my first children.

Okay.

I mean, this is all very public. Lee, who's one of our founding fellows, started on the program. Bariatric surgeon Lee Humphries wanted to develop himself and Farmer as a advisor in the obesity space. Kept on facing challenges and of not being an endocrinologist.

Wow.

Yeah. So he'd face a lot of roadblocks. He talked about this very openly on our podcast as well.

Right.

And for years was trying to get into pharma. For years. And like a lot of doctors like pharma. The problem with pharma is that it's very well established. Everyone knows pharma. Everyone knows the doctor's got your pharma.

Yeah.

Because we've seen like a huge sea change of doctor gained pharma.

Yeah.

Now it's like. And because pharma isn't just about doctors and medical affairs, Gerald, it's also pharmacists.

Yeah.

Super, super, super, super competitive.

Okay.

It does take a lot longer. And because Lee had a very specific niche and interest area, just getting into the area actually was even, Even harder.

Yeah.

So he worked with us, we helped. We basically. A lot of the work we did with him was on his mindset, on his approach and developing his profile. Like, outside of the. I just need to get a pharma job again. This is a very common thing that doctors come with. I need to sort out my cv and then I'll be good enough.

Yeah.

Again, that is. That is completely out of there. CVs are dead as far as I'm concerned.

CVs are there. Dr. Bennett Jones.

They are dead. They are dead. They're like so naughty before. But anyway, and. And so, you know, we Helped him develop his profile. So before he joined us was not on LinkedIn or only just joined and then you know, over the space of a few months he was posting on LinkedIn. Really building up his authority and credibility.

Yeah.

As, as a person in this space with a specific link to pharma. During that, in that time he got a number of consulting offers with big sauna companies, but it took at least a year and a half to actually get the job that he actually wanted. And it's something that he did interview for before and because you know, the second time round he knew the interviewer, you know, and it was everything that he'd done in that time outside of, you know, working pharma that helped him to get the role. So as well as the like, the personal branding piece is a huge part because it was the LinkedIn posting, it was the commenting on certain topics, it was the podcast he launched with some medical students on called beyond the Scales. And also the work he did with us, the networking, the mentorship he did with other doctors. He got known, his name got known. So it was inevitable. So we helped him to make it inevitable that he would get there.

This is amazing.

That's what we're all about. It's like how can we help your journey or your destination like become inevitable through this process rather than leaving it to chance and luck. And chance and luck definitely have a part.

Yeah.

But at the same time like you need to like put things in place just like with our training program so that if you do this and this and this like it's just guaranteed to happen as long as you keep persisting with it. That's the key and the consistency is key right now.

This is just amazing having that sort of example, clear example of someone. Is it? I'm just going to say this here environment dictates performance is very important.

Yeah.

If any group here where so in we have like a moneywise doctor premium group which we never talk about publicly because we sort of is self selecting group who invite people. So environment you have those people. You're suddenly in a group where people are talking about investing and business and stuff like that. The same with you bringing Lee into your network. Like doctors who come in there. You're no longer just doing it alone, you're doing it with a group of people who are really going to somewhere. You're sharing your wins, you're sharing your disappointment. Then the second thing I picked up from there was he said there's luck and chance but you want to reduce the chance. You want to increase the probability of getting into industry.

You increase your luck. You increase your luck by working on it. And actually I was talking to the doctor before about that.

It.

And Richard Branson talks about this, like the end of the day, like a lot of Richard Branson's success is about being open to opportunity.

Yeah.

The reality is that. And the problem we face is actually that opportunities are limitless and they're around all the time. But doctors, most doctors, cannot see them presented in a nice little package like, here's a job that's for you. And so this is what we. Again, this is why a lot of the work we do in the first two steps of our program is about clarity and mindset.

Clarity and mindset, your success. So what do you really want? Right, Okay. I think before we wrap up, I'm just going to hammer in on some things you just highlighted. Increasing your luck. So one of my bodies described increasing your luck as two things. You increase your skills or you increase the surface area of luck, skill and opportunity. So people always say, when opportunities meet preparedness, then that's luck and all that. I know some people might disagree, but preparedness, like gaining the skills, like someone in the industry or something, learning how to improve your personal brand, change your shitty LinkedIn handle, make it something really good. Don't put MBBS, MPH, MROC, GP and all that sort of say what you do, your expertise, improve your landing page and all that. So you're also learning how to talk, how to pitch, how to say what you do. You know, basically also things like copy or if you need to do a landing page, if you need to hire someone, or speaking on a podcast, that in itself is a skill. You've done it so many times. So that's preparing. You're preparing preparedness. But there's also the other aspect, which is like increasing your opportunity, the surface area, by posting out there. So people see you see what you do, networking events, or if you. If you live in Cornwall or Devon like me, I don't fancy making a trip up to London all the time, then you might need to hop on calls like this. So that's really quite powerful. Now, do you have a third sort of thing you're very proud of? There's so many things you're proud of in obviously. But do you have a thought example or something you want to share?

Well, I mean, I can talk about our other founding fellow, Carla. Oh, who actually had been a member of Medic Footprints from. From when we started, pretty much. And she's incredible. From when we started, like, over 10 years ago.

What's her surname? Carla. What?

Carla Wright. Allen.

Oh, yeah, so people can check on LinkedIn.