Solicitor's Secret: Avoiding Legal Trouble in Property Investment

I've always had an accountant from day one. I started working in the uk. I just love trying to save pennies and then you lose pounds.

My training is different to your training.

The actual headache they saved me. For a lawyer, you can't really say, I'm just going to remove my mold because I know what to do. What are the commonest mistakes you've seen business owners doctors make are thinking, well, I could just instruct my ChatGPT AI lawyer to draft the agreement for me. What pitfalls are then just with that.

I can foresee things a lot sooner than you can input properly.

For 35, 40 years, this has been amazing. I'm like, how? Why would you do has the most expensive £800? I really want to know that this lawyer is representing my interest. Legal problems are expensive. I've known from my experience anything that takes you anywhere near the courthouse, you want to stay as far away. Do you sometimes wonder if you're knowingly breaking the law or setting yourself up for future legal trouble? In our latest podcast episode, we had legal expert, a lawyer for over 20 years. Boring. A Wu, who had been a barrister and now is a solicitor that helps property investors, including doctors healthcare professionals, to avoid legal troubles and make sure they are compliant with the law. We also delved into the impact of the new labor government policy, how it could affect property investors. And we delve into things like hmo, buy to let and all that stuff to ensure that when you invest as a doctor, healthcare professional or even any business owner, you can know the pitfalls and the dangers to look out for. Stay tuned. I will share all that in details. Welcome to Money Wise Doctor Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Andy Grim. As usual, we discuss how to help doctors and healthcare professionals avert CR mistakes and make smarter financial decisions. Today, I've got a really, really, really fantastic resource in person of a highly accomplished barrister. Well, former barrister. She's trained fully as a barrister, now works as a solicitor, helping doctors and healthcare professionals business owners avoid costly legal issues and make sure that they are compliant, especially when it comes to investing in property. So, drum roll. Let's make welcome Maureen Ubu. You're welcome, Maureen.

Oh, thank you so much for having me, Dr. Andy.

Lovely. Yeah, I'm sure that I've missed quite a bit because I've looked at your profile and we've had a bit of back and forth. You've sent me some details and you're very highly accomplished. You've trained both as a barrister in your former career, now you're Solicit as well. It's quite a lot of training. Can you tell me a bit more apart from being a barrister and so can you, how would you usually introduce yourself?

Okay, so I would. Well, I, I tend to be very, very, very simple about it. I just say I'm a format practicing barrister, practicing solicitor. Or I would say I'm a former prosecutor and now I'm a defend, I'm defending, I'm defending business owners as well as property investors. So yeah, very simple to be honest.

That's a good way to look at it. Like previously you're prosecutor, which is very high demand, high stress job and now you're sort of like trying to help property owners and doctors and business owners in general avoid legal problems. Legal problems are expensive. I've known from my experience anything that takes you anywhere near the courthouse, you want to stay as far away. So we're very interested to hear your experience and also sort of get a lot of insight from your wealth of experience. You kindly sent me some case studies you've had. They're very fascinating. A lot of people who've actually sort of come to the edge of having issues with the law and how you've helped them and these are like normal everyday people, doctors, business owners who didn't think they were doing anything that could cost them and then suddenly they are faced with those issues. But we're going to get into all that, don't worry. Maureen is going to break those things down for us. But also, see, I looked at your profile line. You are sort of the principal at Wynn Anderson Solicitors.

Yes.

So is that what you do mainly? Is that like, do you still have to go to court or.

Yes, yes I do. So it's a, it's a boutique practice in London but we cover all of the UK apart from Ireland and Scotland. So England and Wales mainly is where we focus our practice. It's a small practice, very niche.

Yeah.

So we don't do every area. We focus on really helping investors as well as business, small, medium sized business owners.

I like niche. Basically, money wise, Dr. Is as niche as it gets. It's personal finance then for doctors. But niche also gives you the opportunity to really go in depth and become very good in that area. So that when, when your clients or your audience, whoever comes to you, they know exactly that you're not just selling Rand, you're very good at what you do. Right, okay. Now we're going to delve right into it, but I want to get a bit of a background. What gave you the Motivation. Why have you gone to school? Became a barrister, which is already an accomplishment and is. My brother is a solicitor. I know sort of like going through law school and all that stuff. A lot of it's also a lot of stress.

Yes.

After being a barrister and you've gotten quite high in your experience as a barrister, you decided to change to a solicitor. Let's start from the barrister bit. Why do you decide to be a barrister?

Okay, so my, my first degree actually was biomedical science. Really. I come from a Nigerian family. Anybody that's. You understand that already, that's. Anybody that's of African descent or Asian descent will relate to this. It's either you were going to be a doctor, lawyer or engineer or failure. Yes, yes. So you didn't really have a choice, to be honest. So I did that. The whole point of that was to then get the pre clinical year, I think off in med school to go and study medicine. In my final year I decided actually it wasn't for me having done. Yeah, I worked in a hospital in Manchester. That's where I did my first degree. I worked in the hospital for six months in the histology, immunology, pathology labs, all of those things. And six months I think was enough to say to me, okay, you're not really quite your environment. And I remember from school I really enjoyed debates and reading and art, artistic things. So that was. I'm quite creative, I write as well. So my natural leaning was towards that side of the profession rather than the medical side. I guess so.

Wow, that's fascinating. I didn't know that. So you didn't think maybe I might become a poet or a writer?

Oh gosh, try saying that to my dad. That dad will say to me, yeah, okay, Inebo, my parents are able. Later we'll look at that, that writing thing of yours. But first of all, get a career because in their minds, you know, if you have a career, then you're sorted for life. Of course, even I know there's no job for life these days.

That's true. I mean, I can relate to that. Having Nigerian parents, being from Nigerian descent, actually you can see that sort of like, okay, I studied medicine, my brother studied law on the other one went to engineering school and did environmental engineering and one's an accountant. And it tends to be like, is. Is the exposure our parents had in those days, like we needed a career, they were looking out for it. They didn't know that someone could become a social media influencer or something like that.

How, how do you make money from that how really understand.

Yeah. Or even an entrepreneur. If you say you wanted to start a business, they'll think, yeah, get a career because they're thinking about safety. But it's very interesting that that le you sort of. Because a lot of doctors and healthcare professionals giving me, for example, I made up my mind around three years of age. That's when I tell them I beat. That was when I was very sick and I had an uncle who was med school or thereabout and I thought, ah, it'd be good because if you're the best in your class or Even the top 1%, they thought it was medicine. But I never really went to observe in a hospital or been in the world for any day till I got into Med School 14 years later now, or if you count 20 years from the time I go into med school and I've had breaks from medicine and out. But then you made that decision, you pivoted and you thought, well, since I'm very good, I've got the gift of the gab and debate, I'm artistic, I'm heading into law. Yeah, that is very interesting. So now you went to school to study. Lord. Where did you do your law school?

So I went to. So at the time, this is going back 24, 25 years now, at the time for law school you had. There was College of Law in London, now they call it the University of Law. That's in Bloomsbury in central London. So I did the conversion, which is the postgraduate diploma in law.

Yeah.

Because I obviously my first degree was. Non.

Yeah.

And then after that I decided, okay, I wanted to be a barrister because I remember my mum saying, so if you're going to do it, you just go, go all the way. Do. Do the one that you really want to do. Wow. So. So that's what I did. And at the time, actually the bar school that I attended there was. I think there was about five or six in the country then. London was obviously heavily subscribed.

Yeah.

I decided, can you imagine, I left my friends and family behind and went to Cardiff in Wales.

That's not a bad. That's not a bad option.

No. But the thing is, you know, you say that because I'd already been out of London for some time.

Oh, yeah.

And said to me, gosh, you know, you keep going. I said, if you want something in life, you've got to know what. You just do whatever it takes. That's. Yeah, I, you know, I was fearless and I think to a certain extent I am in a way I, I'm a free spirit.

Yeah.

What you're looking for is not right under your nose and it's further away. Then just go and get it and then come back.

All right, Now I'm going to have to decide whether we're going to focus on motivational stuff because I'm getting some motivational vibes and I'm loving it. I'm loving it. Right, so you did your biomedical course. Was that inside London?

Outside London, that was. Where did I study it? That was in Manchester.

Manchester, yeah. So that already took you outside London, but yeah, friends were in London. And then to go to law school again, you have to leave London.

And then I had to come back to. To do my postgraduate diploma in London.

Wow. And you're sort of like in London? Yeah. You were born in London?

Yeah, well, actually, funnily enough, I was actually born in Scotland.

You was born in Scotland?

Yes. I just need to cover all bases now.

You need to. Belfast. Belfast is lovely. Last time I went by sea, I just met with the wife and we made it. We tried to do a bit of Titanic, except that this, the, the, the ship didn't sink. So that's, that's good for us.

That's a relief. That's a relief. Here is beautiful.

Oh, yes, it's really nice. Yeah. Right, so you went to school. A lot of sacrifice, I imagine. I don't think it could be a walk in the park to go back to do become a barrister. And you, you did that. So how, how long do you work as a barrister?

So I was a. So the, the profession is really divided into two. So either you're at the independent bar or you're in the employed bar. So I was in the employed bar. Was. I was there for five years.

Okay.

I worked advising different organizations as well as the court service.

Yeah.

I wasn't in a set of chambers because that was a decision I made quite early on, but I wanted to do that then. But then I was being invited to join different sets.

Right.

Is financially. I'd already, in fact, bought my first property, I think, at the age of 28, 29. I was living at the time. And the barristers I kept meeting, we, you know, we all became really good friends. They said, oh, gosh, you know, what, what can we really give you now? We want you to join us. We just haven't got the funds to fund you for the first six, first six months of pupilage, because you have to do that in order for you to then become a tenant in a settlement chambers. In the end anyway, that decided, okay, that's not for you or other things.

Wow.

Explore other things. Because I felt like what I was looking for, I wasn't getting it quick enough.

I'm already seeing a pattern here. I see that you're not afraid to change paths because obviously you started out in biomedicals and then you wanted to be a doctor. Then you switched to embarrassed, and then it didn't seem to be going. So it takes a bit of courage to be able to make that because people sort of like fall for this sunk cost fallacy. You think, well, I've already invested 10 years of my life in this part. I might as well just be misery for the next 40 years. I mean, everybody's miserable. My neighbor is miserable. Why don't I just be miserable? And that's part of being an adult, isn't it?

Yes. Life is too short, Andy. And you know, if the pandemic hasn't taught us anything, it certainly taught us the how. How short live is. You know that because I. I lost very people very dear to me, my.

MOT.

During the pandemic. And nothing to do with COVID Actually, it was to cancer. And of course you're a doctor. You know, there's. The incidence of cancer is just on the increase as well as mental health. So I think it's important really for people to kind of, you know, just. Just think about what you're doing and if you're unhappy. Happiness is. To me, happiness and love are the two most important thing in life. Everything else kind of follows really. So because I found that I wasn't, I was I to me, I reached the peak of what I wanted to achieve. I was working the court service and there was no, no room, the ceiling, unless I knock off the JP to take his position and learn what I wanted to learn. If that makes sense. I just said to myself, okay, I had to go back again and sit some more exams. The qltt. Wow. So that it was. It's now called the qlts. It was called the Qualified lawyers transfer tests in those days. And that's the same exams that a lawyer that qualified in Nigeria or any other country in the, in the world coming to practice here. Is it similar to the plaps?

Yeah. Yeah. I had something. I think I had some friends doing that exam. It takes forever, doesn't it?

Luckily, if you're a home student like I was. And of course I've been embarrassed before. All I needed to study was just two or two. I think two or three. So professional conduct and Ethics and solicitors accounts. If you're a foreign qualified lawyer, then of course you've got more, more papers to sit, basically. Wow.

This is really interesting, the fascinating discussion. I mean, if you're in the audience and you're following this journey with me, obviously Maureen is an expert in helping doctors, businesses, healthcare professionals in general, avoid costly legal mistakes in terms of helping to make sure that you are compliant. Because there are a lot of things that I had someone recently who was renting out their property. They didn't have the right document, they didn't know, they just sort of got it till they had an unfortunate disaster. There was a fire and then. Yeah, there was a fire. They had to, they were fortunate anyway to have very understanding tenants. Nobody was harmed. But then they found out that they were just sort of exposed. They had insurance, but they, they didn't have the right legal framework and if they were sued at that point, they could be wiped out. And this person being a doctor is also, you know, they're playing with their license and all that. So we're going to get into all that. I know you're sort of brimming with it because you've sent me some case studies and I read them and I was really fascinated. But where I want to start now is. And basically, I know you've switched from being a barrister, you become a solicitor.

Yes.

In your experience so far as a solicitor, which you've done for how long have you been working in? Sort of like.

I've been a solicitor now for. Well, I've been a lawyer really entitled for nearly 24 years.

So this is 24 years of experience because to me, to me, I'm seeing a lawyer, barista, solicitor. You all sort of like studied the law, you're dealing with the law. So 24 years, that's really. Yeah, it's a very decent experience. What are the commonest mistakes you've seen business owners, doctors make, especially when it comes to what you now specializing in with property. What are the top mistakes?

Yeah. Okay. So the top ones tend to be. Okay, so first of all, there's no contract. There's no, there's no proper contract in place. So tenancy agreements, the correct one, it's not in place. There's no property license. So for instance, hmo. If it's an HMO property, there's particularly. Because we know obviously it's a lot more lucrative than the standard buy to let.

Yeah.

But equally it's heavily. It's a lot more regulated than the regulations. And then in areas where There's. So that's the second one. The third one is in areas where you may need planning.

Well, I'm just going to jump in. So it's interrupt. Remember, we're not lawyers here, so.

Yes.

We might ask you some questions that sound a bit silly. That's because we don't understand it. So number one is contract. Not having the right contract in place because it's not enough to write contract, but you've got to have the right contract in place. You can't just use an AI to write. I mean, if you use an AI, you still don't know what you don't know.

Yes.

So. So that's number one, not having the right contract.

Yes.

What does that really mean, like not having the right contract? Does it mean that the lawyer didn't do it properly or the person did it, or they didn't just have a contract? The Joshua can't.

Yeah, yeah. There are so many, so many reasons, Sandy. One could be not having a contract, just having an understanding. I've seen that where unfortunately, when things go wrong, then. And then the other is downloading things from the Internet, out of date.

All right.

And they're not actually fit for purpose for a particular need because different properties, different requirements.

Yeah.

Then the other is just drafting something themselves. So maybe on one page or an A4 page, but it doesn't really have all the elements that you need to make sure that the landlord is protected, the tenant is protected, all the requirements. So that should anything happen, there's a working document to go back to. That's the one. And I see that quite frequently, actually. And this is really for very busy professionals, they just think, well, you know, of course I'm articulate, I'm educated, I can just cobble something up. I don't need to pay somebody to. To do that. And it's not huge amounts of money either.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm not saying you can't do these things yourself. You can be. You need to know where you're looking to get the correct document to make sure it's. It's actually fit for purpose. Yeah.

Because basically you don't know what you don't know. Isn't it? It comes down to trying to save pen and then you lose pounds, you're trying to save a few. I just laugh sometimes. People say, I don't need. I've always had an accountant from day one. I started working in the uk, I had an accountant and something. How are you paying several hundreds now? Thousands, because of my business and all that it's an accountant. I'll say the actual headache they saved me, it runs in tens of thousands in terms of both compliance and also sort of actual savings. So it comes down to a professional, a lawyer, you've done that for 24 years or someone is a doctor, is a consultant. You can't really say I'm just going to remove my mold because I know what to do. It might not be a simple mood, it might be a cancer. I think that, I think that my audience can understand that I'm still on that number one. Nowadays people are thinking, well I could just. If I'm good in prompt engineering I can instruct my charge GPT AI lawyer to draft the agreement for me. What have you got to say? What are the pitfalls or dangers with that?

Yeah, the pitfalls we still have to tell ChatGPT to, to. To put in. You still have to know what, what it is that you're telling Jack GPC to put in, isn't it? You have to know why you're using certain clauses and you know the things to cover. So it's twice as helpful to use it. I'm not against the eye at all because it does make things a lot easier for a lot. A lot of people. A lot of people, yeah. It sort of don't heavily rely on it. It's good even if it's worth maybe just getting professional to cast their eyes over something, review it for you for obviously a bit less just pay to get it amended and then, then you have something that, that it's a working document and not just a tenancy agreement. Actually I wanted to touch on the JV contracts because I know a lot.

Of JV for those who don't know that. Joint venture.

Sorry I have to remember. Very kind of.

Yeah, don't worry if, if it sounds like what people might not know but I suspect a lot of people also following our last appointment now was someone actually getting to Montguage buy too late and looking for advisors. So I'm sure lots of people going in that direction but if there's something we don't. It sounds a bit like oh, call you.

So joint venture contracts that one. I see quite a lot with professionals actually and I have helped a number of doctors actually and dentists with those with those things where they've got in obviously they're so busy doing their, their medical work or whatever professions they're in and the other person has the time but don't have the money so they go out to source the properties etc etc and oversee the projects, all those things get the tenants in and yeah. Property. The contracts sometimes are not as they should be.

Okay.

Really cover the elements.

Yeah.

Should anything go wrong, there's something for us to work. Work from.

Yeah.

In fact, not so long ago helped somebody that didn't have a proper joint venture contract. It was half a page what he sent me. This gentleman was actually in the. He's a consultant actually. He's trying to. He's working towards leaving the nhs. He subsequently has done. He left the NHS last. Last year. Owns property full time. So he said to Warren, this is just a pilot. I know, I made a mistake. I messed up. I should have sourced advice. You know, in the medical profession, a handshake. We just agree.

Because there's that high integrity. Right. If you're dealing with your colleague, you're assuming that there's that high integrity. But when you're out in the wild, it's a bit different.

Yeah. And the person he was dealing with clearly I said to him, I'm really sorry. This person you're dealing with clearly hasn't. And in that case, actually it was a case that he had signed that document and. And then he was. So he was going to provide guaranteed income, guaranteed rent to her and she realized that he was making more money than that property was making when she was managing it.

Oh, the old rent to rent strategy.

Absolutely. So she wanted them to. To get the property back herself so.

That she can then do the rent.

Do it herself. Whether he was stuck in the contract because he. She said, she. Actually, I think what she did, she wanted him to leave the tenants in there for her and end the contract and then pay her some indemnity. So I said, when I said send me, send me the contract. So I had to do. I said, actually this is not really what the paper is written on.

Yeah.

Legal advice, but you know, slap on the wrist type of thing. But you know, I got it sorted for him.

Wow. Wow.

So he went on to the next project.

Yeah.

With his eyes open.

Wiser.

So we, we had a meeting beforehand. It was a 20, 30 bed unit somewhere outside of London. So he had a lot of business partners. I said, no, please do not sign anything because he was. Page document.

Wow.

And he said, oh, their lawyer said. I said, but that's their lawyer.

That's their lawyer. Not your lawyer. Exactly. I don't know. A lot of people. This is amazing. A lot of people are quick to sign something done by another party. I'm like, even when you're buying a New house. And the real estate agent says, oh, this is our lawyer. I'm like, how? Why would he do that? Right. He said the developer has a lawyer and they even actually pitched in £800 so that you can use their lawyer. I said, that's the most expensive £800. It doesn't really matter if I have my own lawyer and pay them a bit more.

Yeah.

But I really want to know that this lawyer is representing my interest.

Yes.

Because in the case you just described, if I understood it properly, this is a very busy consultant. He's got like, high income, but doesn't have any passive income or doesn't have a lot of passive income. He's now buying property and trying to use it to throw off passive income to help him to retire, which he has money to do. Good for him, bad for the nhs. But he managed to. I'm not in a position to judge. I'm not in a salary job myself, so. So he, he's been able to do that, but he ran into a massive, expensive, potentially really, really expensive mistake because he's going to have this agreement, which is practically not really good agreement to the landlord. And now when he started starting to succeed, the landlord with whom he had a deal with, to say, I'm going to rent out this property and then I'll pay you guaranteed rent and do as I like, now turns around and say, oh, you're making money on this thing. I want my property back. And in a very unfavorable way. But you manage to sort that out.

Wow. Yeah. And actually, Andy, there's another one that, as you talk about developer, another one just came to mind. He's also a doctor and. Oh, my goodness, this was a very sad case.

Okay.

Highly stressed working in ana and everybody wants to do better in life, you know, like their families, etc. Etc. It was so sad because he was referred to me and what happened, he would. He had bought somewhere off plan, so it was being built.

Yeah.

But he didn't engage. He engaged a firm that didn't really do him any favors, unfortunately. They really, they really messed things up for him, which is quite sad in a way because he lost 65, 000 pounds.

That's a lot of money.

Yeah, that's a lot of money. That was. Of course you can try, but, you know, nobody can ever say they can guarantee you anything, particularly where he's gone so far.

Yeah.

He has signed something that he should have really sought advice, proper advice. In fact, I, again, I should say this to your audience, if There's a point where you feel that somebody's not getting back to you.

Yeah.

Okay. They're not getting back to. You don't understand what's going on. Because that's what happened to him in that case.

Yeah.

He went on for months and months and months and months. Wow. So then the person that was dealing with it, I don't know whether they're. They were being supervised, but they washed their hands of it. So then it was in the system for five, six weeks.

Wow.

By the time I got involved, there was not really a lot you can do. He was, you know, he had to pay that money to the developers. He had to. And you know that otherwise they were going to sue him.

I said, 65 grand.

This is all my savings, everything. Because he went. He does locum work and of course he's selling. And when I was looking at him on zoom, we can tell.

Yeah.

It was just. He was just exhausted.

Exhausted.

I thought, gosh, I hope this man is not going to do something to himself because he just said, this is. This is all I have.

Yeah.

I've been coming up since I've been in this country, you know. Wow. It was just very heartbreaking. In fact, I. I must check on him because this thing with him last year, just to see how he got on, it's a lot of money.

It's very sad. I hope he's able to recover, get back on his feet and get back at it. But it's a bit like the way to look at it is if you've had a tiny wound and you get to see someone who's a specialist or you see a GP and they think it's something that needs to be referred, they refer you if you see some. If they refer you to a specialist early, the specialist can help you. If it turns out that you're not referred on time or someone was just messing about and then eight weeks, six weeks, eight months down the line, it's faster as maybe gets infected, or if it's a cancer spreading, it's a bit late. And even if you go to the best specialist, they're probably going to say, well, this is now palliative. We can't really do very much about it. I think the same thing can apply with getting the right advice, whether it's legal or otherwise. Financial tax and otherwise. Having the right advice earlier on is much better. Because even I know you're an expert in your area, but when some cases have already festered. Yeah, it's gotten so bad, you're now More like limiting damage and all that.

Yes.

Can I just ask this other firm what could have happened? I know we're not sort of like naming and shaming, but like they were in experts in their area or did it like a big firm like yours is a boutique firm, so you deal with people directly. But I, I noticed from my experience, some of the big firms, they have a good reputation, but then you go to deal with them and they find some really, really incompetent person who doesn't really care, who doesn't get back to you. And you suddenly turn from an investor to someone who shouts on the phone every day. What could have happened?

I think it must have been they've got a high turnover and whether that person was not being supervised by somebody more senior. Because sometimes large organizations, of course, you know that they, they're large for a reason.

Yeah.

So it depends on the type of client you are, investor you are, if you want to deal with the more personalized approach, which is what we take. So you're getting me.

Yeah.

Or another senior lawyer. We're all kind of everybody's specialists in their field.

Yeah.

Obviously I'm, I'm sort of. It's my name at the door, so to speak. So if somebody says they want to specifically speak to me and it's something I can help them with, then I will help them. If it's something I can't help them with, I generally signpost them to other colleagues, maybe in a different firm, if I know them, if I don't know them, then I'll just say, please do make your own inquiries and get somebody to help you. It's not my specialist area. Yeah. I keep harping on the specialist specialism.

Yeah.

You know, going to a generalist, it's not depending on what it is that you're looking to resolve certain issues, you really need a specialist.

Specialist. Right. I mean, that's all fascinating. I mean, the first thing now, which we were unpacking is having the right contract in place.

Yes.

That is really important. Are there any more mistakes or.

Yes, yes. The second one I was going to talk about was the license. So property license, the correct property license. So even normal buy. To let properties, certain areas, you need a selective license. That's kind of. It's been around that for the last few years. So it's something people really need to be aware of. And obviously for HMO properties, you need an HMO license. Depending. There are some exemptions.

Okay.

Certain properties. So properties are maybe being used by the local authority, for instance. For care properties and those sorts of properties, you don't need HMO license, but you still need to comply with the right license. Yes, yeah, yeah. So HMO license applies to a lot of HMO properties and that I'm seeing. And then certain areas they've brought in additional licensing scheme the last three years, again, lots of people are being called, bought out.

Wow.

Because they, as far as they knew, they just thought five or more tenants in a property, they never didn't understand that now it's gone down, the numbers have gone down to three or more. Oh, really? They need, they need a different type of HMO license. So, yeah, different things. And, and the way I work really, we have different packages for people to kind of work with us on. So the way I work really is on a preventative, more of a preventative measures rather than reactive. Because when you're reacting, no, you're in a, in a state already. You're, you know, you're worried and then you're not really thinking clearly when it's, when it's preventative. Nothing has gone wrong. You're just taking your time to, to make sure that you're fully compliant. Everything is as it should be. And we have a working relationship now. I have a few, a few professionals I work with actually that are looking to grow their portfolio.

Yeah, yeah.

So, you know, that peace of mind they say it's just, it means that, you know, and they, you know, the. I now changed accountants a few times by myself and the peace of mind you get with somebody that is holding you by the hand and expect explaining things. Yes. Makes a huge difference.

Makes a lot of difference. It makes a massive, it makes a massive amount of difference because the way I look at it, and again, you're speaking to medics, it's like a pound of prevention, or rather a drop of prevention is what more than, you know, a bucket full of care. I can't remember quite what the English expression is, but I know that prevention is better and all that. But most times you eat that apple, you're not thinking, is this really keeping the doctor away? And an apple is cheaper than having to pay for medication. And obviously, you know, in the UK a lot of people are covered by the nhs. Well, I've recently been in the US where people will put up going to the hospital as long as they can because of the cost. Right. So number one, have the right contract, number two, have the right license. So it's not good enough to just rock up, see a property, say, I'm just gonna buy it and rent it out by the room because it's just three or four people. So these rules are always changing and that's why it's really important to work with somebody who has got their finger on the poles. Example is when it comes to taxes, tax returns, self assessment and all that. I write the guides for doctors and I, I talk a lot about it, but I still have an account. I don't do it by myself. Yeah. Just because the rules might have changed overnight. And even though I do, I do keep an eye on it. You want to deal with a who knows what they're doing, knows where the nuances are, but also that key issue of I'll say indemnity or risk. Because as a medical professional, if I sign off something, I'm saying yes, I'm putting my six years in med school, plus 14 years as a doctor and a GMC license, I'm putting that on the line and I'm saying yes. So that means I probably pay more attention to it than some random AI tool.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. We get that in the profession where there's loads of companies out there now that, you know, pop up left, right and center with, whether it's, you know, people that use AI for things, but which is, you know, fine, I'm not reading, I'm not knocking any of that. But even with evictions, some people want, want to do it as, as low as they possibly can. Again, you know, horses for causes. I'm not stacking them up and selling them for cheap, but that kind of thing working that way, I work with specific people. In fact, I turn some people away. Yeah, it's not the right fit.

Yeah.

Where all they're seeing is just the feed. They're not really focusing on what you're saying, the value or the valley. So there wouldn't be the right people. People for us, turn people away.

But now and again, yeah, it's going to be. Sometimes some income or the money you make is not. What if it's not the right fit or if it's not the, the avatar person you're dealing with. Yeah, it does, it does. It doesn't work out well down the line. Right. So there we two. Are there any more mistakes?

So planning. Planning is another one. Yeah. So, yeah, planning issues. So doing works that you need planning permission for or having a property in an Article 4 area. Article 4 means essentially you need planning to have your HMO property in that area. Just to put it very, very basic. Yeah. So that's another one that I see quite Frequently and then the other one is reach of the actual property property license. So you know, I mentioned number two was not having the license.

Number four. Did you say bridge?

Yeah, breach. So are you not complying with the requirements of that license? Oh, okay. So there's loads of different things and the management regulations that you know and yeah, landlords, particularly if you're, if you have an HMO property that you have to apply with. You mentioned about the fire issue when we started talking in regards to the, that you know. Yes, that's quite a big, a big one really. Certain things that people are maybe cutting corners, cost, the cost of obviously running those things that can be quite high but it's worth it in the end because like you're playing the long game, you're putting all those things in place and having your power team in place so you have somebody to ask for advice, staying on top of things and then you're just getting your income. So you go to bed, as I say, with your eyes fully closed.

I mean to be honest, from a safety point of view, I mean it's nice to, it's important to have a lawyer to tell you to be compliant and all that. But also you don't want to rent out your house to tenants and you don't have the safety because those rules are made for a purpose to help to prevent things from, you know, people from getting caught in a fire and all those padding you have to do and fireproofing you have to do. And sometimes it might sound a bit heavy handed because the landlord is an investor, is trying to make a bit of money and sometimes they are really like high busy professionals already paying high taxes and trying to get some passive income. So your, your job from what I see is sort of like you're between the law, the regulations and the tenant, sorry, the landlord or the investor. So you get them to where they should, the minimum that they need. And if I say minimum it might sound a bit negative but you get them to what they really need to do. I mean there might be like other nice to do but you need, you get them to the point where they know this is really what you need to do. So avoid it blowing up in your face. Is that a fair summary?

Yeah, I mean, yeah. And in some, in some cases actually, because every case is different as well, Andy. So some will have maybe one or two properties and some will have 15, 20. So high risk, high rewards. Is that what they say?

Yeah.

The larger the portfolio, the more responsibilities they have, the less time they have.

Okay.

And. And generally when I speak to people, I want to understand the person.

Yeah.

Where you are now, what is it that you're looking to achieve? Me help you get there in a compliance way.

Yeah.

Stay with you, grow with you. Protect the assets that you're acquiring. Because I don't just deal with the property but the business side. Because there will be things in the business that. Because I used to prosecute, obviously, business owners, landlords.

So you've seen both sides?

I've seen both sides, yes. Yes. And I've also sat as a legal advisor when I was. I was an employed barrister. So I've seen both advocates. Yeah, both sides. And then retire with the magistrates or did the judge. Judges as well when I was in bar school and in fact, when I was working as well. There are times when you sit with them, so you kind of listen and watch how they deliberate on cases. So I've kind of covered the whole. Every part in the courtroom.

Really Respect the spectrum. Yeah.

So my clients gained the benefit of having that in one person.

One boutique fan.

Yeah. So they get the. So really from the instructions, from the first stage through to the court hearing or tribunal hearing, I would cover because. And then you kind of build a very good relationship with. With them because, you know, weeks or months. Yeah. You have rapport with them.

That's. That's amazing. You cover sort of. You said from the. To the hearing. From what to the hearing? What was that?

You said the instruction stage.

From the instruction stage. And part of it is mainly to get it to try to make sure the hearing doesn't happen, to make sure that you don't even get to that point where you have to go to court. And then there's also another spectrum of perspective you add to it. I mean, you mentioned it earlier. You're an investor, you're property investor yourselves, isn't it?

You mentioned very, very minimal.

Very minimal.

So I've had. I've had that experience. So I will say I can relate to certain things.

Yeah.

They. They are going through.

Yeah.

I don't do HMO myself. I don't do HMO myself. But, you know, everybody has their risk appetite and what they. You know, there are other ways of making money in my. Yeah, you're an investor. See you. And you understand.

You're speaking my language.

There's other things, other things they invest in. So again, I'm constantly learning if there's another way to kind of bring things to bring income.

Fair enough. I mean, property is nice, but I tend to look at property as an area for someone who has less time or maybe. Yeah, because basically if I wanted to invest in a property, the living apartment is the lowest way you can sweat the land. You can have a business on the land, you can use it for parking. So many things. But we're talking about property here. Let's just say someone listening in the audience, I'm saving up the juicy part of some of the more juicier parts because, you know, I'm going to ask you about labor and the impact of the new labor rules, but I'm packing it for later. So if you've gotten this far and you're still with us, I'm going to ask Maureen to tell us with new things, labor is ringing in place. Some people are going to be unsettled. We're going to get into that. But before we do that, let's just say a doctor, let's say I'm a GP or consultant and I've decided, look, I want to invest in property and I want to start with a hmo. Hmo, three or four people or whatever, I buy a product, I want to rent them out by the room. I've got the down payment and I've already, I'm able to arrange the mortgage or some money. Maybe I'm buying a property, doing it up and doing all that stuff, but I can't run it by myself. I'm planning to maybe partner with somebody to do the groundwork and all the run around and all that. Where should I start? What should I do?

Okay, so I think if you're partnering with somebody, then that's like the stage where you need to have a property, joint venture contract in place so that you understand, do your due diligence. I always say this so before you even pick a joint venture partner, you need to understand who they are and, and build that trust. So, you know, just make sure that they are who they say, yeah, they are and so that you're not partying with thousands of pounds and you know, goes up in to be either. So yeah, so that's what I, I would say start up from there, your due diligence, both sides, and then sit down and discuss what you want to have in the contract and then have the contract properly drafted and then, then get advice in regards to the HMO property because I find that the most successful people in our, in our ecosystem are the ones that actually came as soon as they bought that property or even if they think they will come. And that's why we have the strategy call that we. So we do a 90 minute strategy called where we go through everything and then if they don't want us to put some documents together, we put the documents together for them, advise them as to who to go to. If we can make recommendations, for instance, and say you may need to, to approach a fire risk assessor, for instance, you may need to approach for your EPC maybe.

Yeah.

To do this you need to get, obviously make sure you get a gas safety and all that.

These are basic stuff.

Yeah.

But I tell you that I had a property, you know, landlord who didn't have all that stuff and then they had a fire. So I'd imagine that if they had talked to you maybe or someone like you earlier, that would never ever have happened.

No, no, there's a conversation like how we're having now. So you just, as you're talking, you trigger somebody's thought process. So then they go off and do. I mean, I was talking to a client yesterday, I think she's actually an accountant and she's. She, her family home is outside of London but they have a property in London. She's saving up for her kid when the kid goes to university to have something. But there was some issues within there. The tenants. Oh, there's another thing I was going to say actually the tenants can. Are suing a lot of landlords nowadays.

Oh.

Her tenants were threatening to sue her because she didn't have the correct property license to recover all their rents back. So I'm seeing quite a lot and I'm settling quite a lot of those lives at the moment.

Wow, that's crazy.

Yeah. So in that instance, she was asking me how can she.