Unlocking AI-Powered Software Engineering with Hyper | Rapid Application Development | CodeNinja

My passion was and is like how can we take that raw intelligence and then have situationally control and deploy that intelligence into our context. So what Hyper really does is Hyper is can I build a distribution mechanism for raw intelligence? What is an idea by the way? If you really ask what is an idea? Idea basically is a very controlled deployment of intelligence and if we build a product out of it, that product has a certain storage of intelligence in it. Right. So with Hyper, my goal is can we help every person on the planet? Core idea, as I explained earlier of Hyper is can we bring in our context, software developers closer to the problem where you have no idea what to build only you're just iterating and you're just coming up with ideas, trying to build see what works and what doesn't. That's where the Hyper is.

Hello everyone and welcome to another exciting podcast of Codeninja Global. A podcast dedicated to bringing you key industry insights from some of the most influential thought leaders across the globe. I'm your host Emur Hussain and today we're being joined by Mr. Omar Bilal, the co founder of Codeninja and Hyper. In this episode we will deep dive into codeninja's central proprietary development platform, Hyper, its recently introduced team of experts and what that means for businesses and entrepreneurs. So without further to do, let's begin our podcast for today. Welcome back to the podcast over. How have you been? What's been keeping you busy lately?

There are so many things traveling, lots of traveling in the Saudi Arabia recently set up our services there as well. So most of the time I've been in Jeddah, in Riyadh. The rest is life is good.

Right? I'll probably jump right into this. So the motto of Hyper that everyone can become an entrepreneur. Could you kindly sort of like unpack this for us and especially for those who are watching and are a bit unfamiliar with the platform. Moreover, what do you think led to the creation of hyper@codeninja?

So I think before that what really what's incredibly inspiring for me is like how, I mean I would take lots of analogies from how humans have harnessed the energy. I think two of the most profound technologies in our times are energy and intelligence. In all my conversation you'll see me that I take lots of analogy from how humans have harnessed the energy in last 100 years or so. Mission of Hyper is can we make intelligence programmable for every person on the planet? And you know, programming does not mean that we need to teach people how to program or we need to teach People how to do prompt engineering. As Jensen said, like everyone would be a prompt engineer. I disagree with that. But that's not the way to give programmability in the hands of the people. That's not the way. I mean, now imagine energy. Humans, the modern form of energy, right? It's being harnessed from last 140, 50 years electrical energy. So energy. If you see in our houses, in our offices, apartments, buildings, there's a button, for example, you really want sand to on, then there's a button for that, right? And if, for example, you want lights, there are like four buttons for that. That's programmability of energy. That's how humans have really managed to harness the energy. Imagine, just imagine that you have bought new air conditioner, right? And in a broad sunlight, you place that air conditioner in front of sunlight. Would it work? How? How the hell, I mean that how the hell it would work, right? So the real fascinating thing when it comes to energy is the way humans had situationally controlled and deployed that energy. That our systems of grids and distribution mechanisms, that's what really inspired and strikingly fascinating it comes to energy, right? So with hyper, when I talk about when I said, I meant, I said whatever we did with energy, can we do the same with intelligence? Right. Now when I say can we do same with intelligence means these are raw intelligence. All Those chatbots like GPT4 and Quad and Gemini Perplexity, all those answer questions, chatbots, they're incredibly important. But to me they're raw energy, raw intelligence, right? It's like sunlight, right? And the compute that's powering them is like chemical reactions that's happening inside the sun, right? So if you think in that perspective, my passion was and is like, how can we take that raw intelligence and then have situationally control and deploy that intelligence into our context, right? The way humans have used all that programming of electrical energy through buttons and harness that energy into switching on lights and appliances. And that's my way of, when I say situationally controlling the intelligence, that's what I really wanted to do, right? So what Hyper really does is Hyper is. And when I say hyper is making intelligence programmable for every person on the planet, what really means programming really means There is not like I need to teach programming to every person on the planet.

Absolutely not.

What it really means is can I build a distribution mechanism for raw intelligence to situationally control and deploy into building something useful? Right, Right. So for example, if you say if someone wants to build an idea, right? What is an idea by the way if you really ask what is an idea? Idea basically is a very controlled deployment of intelligence. And if we build a product out of it, that product has a certain storage of intelligence in it, right? So with Hyper, my goal is can we help every person on the planet to have that sort of situational control and deployment where every person, every person can build something useful, right. And the model is the way they that the way humans did with energy, right. So that's like bit of a context of Hyper, right? Before I jump to that, everyone can be entrepreneur. Like I'll give you a bit of a context of Hyper's roadmap. What exactly. I mean that's what I shared was a raw mission mission of Hyper, right? Like making intelligence programmable for every person on the planet and a situational deployment and control of intelligence. Now Codeninja, if you ask what's. I mean we've been doing Code Ninja and we're doing now Hyper. What's the contact? What's the relation? Code Ninja is a software services business. And one of the most fascinating thing about software services business is while I mean you're not narrowly focusing on one single thing, that's perhaps a drawback. But on the other hand we see, I mean in the last few years I was counting, I've worked with more than 1400 plus ideas. Well, I mean for that for our customers, right? Absolutely. Every customer has that unique perspective. They want to build something unique. Right. As a founder of the company, everyone wants to talk to me and wants to pick my brain on certain things. And that's humanly, I mean impossible. I mean if you look from the outside but if there's someone sitting next to you and telling you what to do and how that when you get to work in lots of different areas. So that was, I mean that's what Codeninja has been doing in last four or five years. And the inspiration for Code Ninja has always been one of my favorite entrepreneur Narayan Murtiji, the founder of Infosys. Right. So I've studied Infosys. Like I mean I haven't studied anything like that the way I studied Infosys. So it's so striking and fascinating that how Infosys and Narayan Murtiji and Nandan built this amazingly, amazingly incredible company. The sheer scale of Infosys just amazes me. Like I said, how someone can be so great at services industries, platforms and products and how the. How is this even possible? So that was like my inspiration founding story of coding like how great that company, how those entrepreneurs in India done with Infosys. So I thought perhaps that Pakistan is not very much different with India in terms of resource base. So I thought perhaps that model that can be replicated. Right. But if you ask Nalayan Murthy ji and Nandan, what do you think you would build in 2024, they would hardly say they will build in or they would hardly say they would build. For example Ratan Tata. Jesus. They won't say they would build TCS again. The Infosys model was an incredible model. Still an incredible model. If you've got that scale in 1980s and 90s, sitting in 2024 and saying that we will be building Infosys the way Murtiji built Infosys, perhaps this is not a way to do services. And I knew it. While the inspiration was there, I read these stock reports of 1993 and 4 and 5 and all that to the point how they scaled and all that. But to the point I know from deep down in my heart that having a headcount of 400,000 people working across all the spectrums, all the services may not be a good idea to build services in 2024 while inspiration is there. Infosys. So I thought, okay, what's the way to build software services now? So if you really see software services. So software services have four different units. So they are organized in a way. Like there are like industries. Yeah. The verticals. The verticals as you call it, marketing guys. Then there are services against those verticals. Like for example, there's a vertical called oil and gas. And there is a custom software development for oil and gas. Right. And then there are platforms, let's say, let's for example Infosys Cobalt, it's a cloud platform. There's a cloud platform for services or for certain vertical. And there's a product that's a very specific product that for example do certain things, let's say financials affair. Right. So that's how they are organized, right?

Yeah.

This is the spectrum of services and this is the product when you see the product. So product is like absolutely focused on one single thing, very specific problem. Right. Infosys with its sheer scale of 400,000 people and access to every expert in the world in their certain fields have managed to traverse from industry to products. Right. And deliver value for its customers. Right? Yeah. But a company in 2024 perhaps which doesn't have that much scale cannot do that in the same way. Right. But if you really see what's that traversal from industry to product, what's that traversal, that traversal basically is a situational deployment and control of human intelligence. So ahead of Oil and gas has an incredible bird of view of from oil and gas to the product at Oil and Gas. And the guy who's doing product at island gets the head of engineering at certain product which does something in oil and gas. Vertical is absolutely closer to the problem, has a lot more situational deployment of human intelligence. Right? So when I founded Hyper, the first mission was like, first goal was vision was like making intelligence programmable for every person on the planet. But the actually road mapping of that mission was like, okay, as a services business, what can be done to make sure that the level of intelligence that is required at a vertical level and level of intelligence that is required at the product level can be traversed and attained and deployed through another product rather than human. So imagine if Infosys, just if we do some tabulation, Infosys for example, have a combined IQ of let's say 4 million. I mean there's a 4 million IQ, there's a combined value of 4 million IQ. Okay, how much compute algorithm data is required to have that sort of IQ into a product? Right? That was the founding story of Hyper. Right? So the roadmap of Hyper. So for example, if someone says we want to build a credit card processing platform for Southeast Asian market, now there are two components of it. The first component is understanding that market, the subject matter expertise that head of vertical brings in or head of services into that vertical brings in. And second is the technology and engineering. The technology and engineering is a very easy part, right? I mean all you need is perhaps a couple of Node JS engineers, a front end developer, a cloud engineer. You just spin up a five team. Now they're ready, gearing up, asking that guy, okay, tell us what to build. That's the whole thing. Tell us what to build. Right? So with Hyper, the goal is can we have all that domain, all that vertical packed into our product and then make that product, that domain available to those engineers. So that's the Hyper. And if you really see what this is, is what I am saying is I've situationally controlled and deployed the intelligence and make that available to our developers. That's what Hyper is. Because I don't think that to do verticals and services. If you, if you talk about lots of, there are lots of companies, lots of investors funding software services businesses and they say, okay, you need to focus one thing and perhaps they're right. Like they say, okay, build services business for let's say financials or software services for renewable. Right. They're very okay with that. They give you lots of money for that and all that. But the challenge, I mean. And they're right, perhaps. But I think after the AI, I think that does not need to be anymore. You can still do services across all the spectrum. You can be Infosys in next two years or next year. If you really, really pack all those traversal knowledge that is required from services to products, pack them into a product, make them available to a developer. And that's why those developers would have that thing available and they can build their products into certain in. Into certain vertical services platforms. So that, that's one part of Hyper. That's one part of Hyper is linked with coding. Hyper.

Right.

And the second part of Hyper is I was just wondering that if we make that product available for the entrepreneurs. For someone who want to start a business, right. In starting a business, engineering is hardly a problem. Especially in areas where idea. You think that idea is good, right? You have, you've identified certain niche. Right. I think the real thing is if you talk to Y Combinators CEO and cwo, they would say, okay, I mean what we really look into, Founder, is a real domain expertise. That's what they really look, right? What does that domain expertise mean? That domain does matter a dime. I mean what's, I mean, what information you need other domain expertise that's readily available at that. I mean, use perplexity. You will be amazed how great perplexity is answering your questions with all the citations. So you don't need domain expertise. All you need is situationally controlling that raw intelligence, that perplexity against you and deploy that into making something meaningful. So that was like if we make that intelligence available for every person on the planet.

I think that's so insightful and quite interesting. And it definitely sort of sets apart Hyper from a lot of the things in the market. I personally feel that it fits in perfectly to the company's portfolio. And speaking of this, like, I, I understand that the product itself has been operating in a manner where it helps to democratize technology perhaps and it helps to untap the potential of emerging markets across the globe. You yourself, like you mentioned, you've been traveling across the globe. Could you share some insights, specifically the context of the Saudi market and why it became Hyper's home turf over the years?

So we've been in the Saudi market and it's been a. It's been a year now and Hyper was, I mean we've been doing lots of other Stuff as well. Very fascinating. But hyper is of course, it's one of the. I mean, we've got some traction with hyper, right? We've got lots of business with hyper. So perhaps I think Saudi, I mean this is a. I've been to Saudi many years before, right?

If you go to.

New York or if you go to, let's say Los Angeles and all that, and if you come to Middle east, especially Dubai and Saudi, the level of innovation and level of infrastructure and level of urban planning that you find here in these markets, it just blows your mind. And I mean the US infrastructure is old. I mean, I can compare the both because we've been traveling in both ways. So it's all. And perhaps you think, I mean, of course there's parts of, there are areas where us has been doing incredibly well. There's still the homegrown for major innovations. But when I see Saudi and Dubai and Middle east and Qatar, I see, I mean these guys are just doing out, doing amazing work in terms of building their cities, in terms of including. I mean, you can't even imagine the level of technology and digitization that Saudi government has done. I mean, I mean it's hardly anything you would see. I mean, I was, I was there and at one point I was just buying this Subway sandwich and I was. When I said I didn't have my wallet with me, I just had some Saudi riyals and I just paid him in and the guy just looked at me. I was felt so out of. What the hell? I mean, I'm just paying Saudi. I mean, what's wrong with it? I felt so out of place. So that's the level of digitization there. So that's number one thing that fascinated me. And second was like when I met with technology, most especially entrepreneurs and the sort of Saudis, by the way, are very good with the business, with their money, they're very good businessmen, right? But with paired with that business acumen now they had the passion, this renewed passion for technology. They wanted to build cool ideas, cool products and cool services, right? But they didn't want to work with software engineers. They didn't want to work with technologists because they had some bad experiences. I don't know what happened, right? So when I was there and we were building this hyper, I just presented this platform to few incubation centers and people just absolutely loved the product, loved the hyper and said we absolutely want to build new cool ideas and products. And then hyper started penetrating into the entrepreneurial landscape in the Saudi. So imagine. So let Me give you a story. So there's a guy in Saudi was building menus. I mean, I mean he, he wanted to build every restaurant a digital manual, something like that. Right. Okay. And our developers, the hyper developers. Okay the one thing about the hyper is we haven't made it readily available for the entrepreneur. They can't use it themselves. Our own developers use it I mean of course. So as we were our developers were working with the. Yeah with a smile and they were building this product and the product said look. He said like while it's good we're designing the menu. But the real challenge in understanding is not that many should be hard or digital or something like that. The real challenge is how out of 50 different dishes that a restaurant offer. How do you know someone would fit into your. Into the person's taste buds? Someone would person like and someone he hasn't tried before. That's the real problem. I mean if you go to the restaurant, right. If you go to restaurant and say what do you want to eat? I mean so okay, you generally go with something you have already tried and 70% of people does that. I like this. That's why what they try what they eat and second is they ask the. If they don't know either they just, they have a hunch okay, let's do this. Okay, that's a. That seems like a sandwich and it seems tasty. That sort of this completely hunch. Or they ask someone okay, you suggest to wait around someone you suggest what's a good thing here? I mean why don't you try that one. That's the worst idea to order a men to order something worst. It's the worst idea to think. Have you ever gone into a trouble of someone presents this is your first time in Paris and someone in a cafe suggests you this is the foreign dishes we offer. Tell us what to eat, what the hell this is. And imagine that Hyper suggested perhaps and that's the situational deployment of intelligence. Hyper suggests perhaps digitization is good, go with it. But perhaps the good idea is to build that customization engine on top of those menus because you are making it digital anyway to really help the person to order something he perhaps is going to like. The probability of liking him a certain food would be 70, 80% more. That was an immediate hit. It was. I mean our developers and that guy were doing the session. Hyper was open. They were, they were just amazed by this suggestion. So that's, that's what hyper is that it allows you to channel your intelligence into a certain way Ask this thing to a bot chat GPT. The chat GPT would give you a very high level framework. It's like a sunlight. Right. Give you 200 things and even ChatGPT 5 would do the same, 6 would do the same. It's a sun. It's like in terms of energy, it's a sunlight. You need to have that energy perhaps building all these things. Hyper is powered by Gemini. It's not like that that Hyper is so of course but we're just channeling that into a certain direction. That's what Hyper did in Saudi market. Right. So that's. That's to your answer that when we did these things in Saudi we got image attraction with incubation centers with Hyper. Right. And also second thing was they were building. We're working with lots of enterprise and the having that sort of as I said traversal from services to product through a product, not through a person. Right. That was very fascinating. We worked with a couple of enterprises in Saudi market where we managed to solve certain very specific use cases for which generally a very. Focused and profound subject matter expert is required. But we were able to do it without having any subject matter expertise. All we had was Hyper. We used that thing to our own advantage and shipped the software. So that was a story of Saudi.

I think that's very insightful and it's so unique like how Hyper has performed in the markets and just building upon that context, like you mentioned restaurants. As far as I understand, HYPR is an industry agnostic platform. It can help various industries just building upon again the success it has been serving in the Saudi market. Could you share some of the success stories perhaps and its growing presence in the Saudi market.

The four success stories. The most profound area where Hyper have so far helped the entrepreneurs and the industries are number one, logistics and supply chain. And second is financial services. And more specific in financial. It's about how we can deploy plastic maybe the cards, credit cards into making something of a value. So for example, so one of our. You talk about success story. One of the major bank was doing credit card. Was doing credit cards were building an aggregation platform for credit cards and then were suggesting different people what which credit does is good and which is bad perhaps. I mean so stuff like that. This is very normal platform. That was the idr right. Then we started building it that Hyper. We did it with Hyper. Hyper said and that's. I mean that's an internal engine of Hyper, right? Hyper said okay, so if you go to airports, if you go to airport, right. How many Lounges in, in. In a, in. In. For example, how many lounges in Jeddah Airport? So There are like 10 different lodges in Jeddah Airport, right? You do not know. I mean, and I'm a frequent traveler, for example. You do not know that in which lounge you can use your credit card and get a seat and spend four, five hours.

You don't know that.

Right. Just imagine that as you are arriving in Jeddah Airport. As you arrive, enter into the airport lobby and you got a message says, okay, Omar, we know you've been using this D Visa card. And there's a lounge where you can avail. Just head on to that lounge. This is a card. Just scan that. Right. What I figured out was like, I mean, and after that, when I knew, when we built this thing, when we figured out that every person who's traveling internationally has some credit cards in his pocket.

Absolutely.

That, that he can deploy into these lounges, right. Almost 60 to 70% of the people can deploy their credit card into the lodges. And you know what if it happens actually, right. If people get to know, get to execute this. What is the purpose of building KFC and McDonald's in airports anyways? I mean, who would go there? I mean everything is. While we are building this aggregation platform, while we're building the segregation platform, Hyper suggested us that perhaps the good idea is to build this thing than that. And then we're built testing. So this sheer channeling of intelligence of building something perhaps not of that value into something absolutely great is what Hyper allows you to build, what Hyper allows you to hand over to the developers and entrepreneurs. So that was again a success story as like that menu thing. Right. So these sort of stories are very striking in Saudi market. Right.

So like just moving on and expanding upon the market. I'd like to know your opinion on the impact that AI is having in this emerging market. Do you feel or do you foresee any challenges in its adoption?

When you go to Saudi? I mean, I'll zoom out from Hyper round. Right. When you go to Saudi market. So first of all, what led me to, to build coding AI, right. So there has to be something that, I mean, why should I do AI anyway? There's a software services business. Of course there's a demand and stuff, but there should be a bigger calling for AI. So one of the guy I am really inspired by and had a huge influence on me is Amir Hussain, the founder of Spark Cognition. And he's done this case study in UT Austin with Professor Dr. Bruce Porter. I guess that the world has more than 100 trillion dollar of physical infrastructure. Right? And I didn't know that, right? So when I heard me and when I explored, okay, that having this notion the world's infrastructure can be mapped into a financial value was like, first of all, that was something very inspiring for me. So I said, okay. And then for example, Amir Hussain, that was his case study. And then he built a company, Spark Cognition, to optimize that physical infrastructure. Right? That stuck. So that was so amazing and so incredibly beautiful. So like that's the mission of even my company as well. Can we optimize the whole physical infrastructure using software and AI? So that was the founding story of Code Ninja AI anyways, right? So still, I mean, you know, what's the best day for me whenever Amir Hussain is having a new podcast or webinar with someone and get to listen to him and pick his brain. Recently he's done an incredible webinar with Faisal after launch. And if anyone has to have a basic understanding of how, what's AI? I mean, imagine we all, we the world. Everyone is now an AI expert, by the way. And that's after ChatGPT became popular. But there are people who've been working on AI from last 40, 50 years, who knows better than them how that trajectory looked like, right? Amir is one of them. So if you get to watch that webinar, I think you are as good as any AI expert, pseudo AI expert, that's been popping out. Because even if you don't have an AI understanding. But the way Amir has explained that story of AI from 1950s to 70s, 90s and then ChatGPT, that's really amazing and fascinating. So coming back to the point when that optimization of $100 trillion physical infrastructure became a founding story of Code Ninja AI, right? But when I went to, when I started visiting Middle east more frequently, I said, I mean, I don't know about us, but perhaps this is a place where optimizing the physical infrastructure is absolutely important because you have this, I mean, such an incredible tall buildings and then you have construction. The construction is being done as if it's being done in 1980s. So there's lots of scope there. And so that was like my starting point of doing AI in Saudi Arabia, right? So that was not like what market is. I mean everyone in Saudi in these markets are not doing AI. So that was not the foundation. The story was like, that's my mission, okay? Now based on that mission, I need to find out a certain type of work. I'm not doing everything AI I'm not doing poetry on AI. I'm not building mods and stuff like that. So I need to find out the work where we can optimize the physical infrastructure of the world and where we can build products and services where we can make our cities more better, right? So for example, in Riyadh if I tell you on an average there are 400 cars per km, that's the level of traffic. I mean if you are in Riyadh they would say why are you in Riyadh? I mean there's so much traffic on the roads, right? So the world need. The Riyadh needs a technology that make this, that make the situation better, right? So Riyadh government has started building some transit trails that no one is going. I don't think any people would use this mass transit system in Riyadh. So everyone wants to have its own car and all that stuff. But to optimize this thing, there are more than 2 million km of road in Riyadh. So already there's lots of construction there. The idea that you need another 2 million to make this better, you need hundred under passes. That's an absolute bullshit. We need to find out a way how can we optimize this situation. And there are different companies like Hazen. AI is doing lots of good stuff. So as my mission that problems like that inspires, I mean that's what we are. We're working with some of the most incredible companies in, in Saudi Arabia down the road. Perhaps you can read a case study of about those curti on Cornea website. But all of those case studies, if you see that, that they are somewhat linked to this mission of optimizing the physical infrastructure that. But this mission allows us to do a certain type of work rather than does everything whatever come out.

I couldn't agree more like we've touched upon AI. One of the things which I wanted to understand. For instance, I'll give you an example. Gartner for instance says that by 2025, which is next year, 70% of the new applications they're going to be built through rapid application development platforms. So I just feel like I want to understand in a manner with there's so many RID platforms in the market, how do you feel Hyper differentiates itself from those?

So other people also think of Hyper. It's a very good question. By the way, Hyper is not a code generator. Hyper is not a low code platform, right? The closest example perhaps of Hyper, which is not even is perhaps like builder AI. It's an incredible Sachin, he's building incredible company by the way. You need to watch this out. Also we're competing them in the Middle East. It's an incredible. We're taking lots of information from Sachin Dugal. He a founder of Builder in. Right. And people, I mean I. I've heard him a lot of times too. And is it, I mean someone asked like is it a low code platform? So if you think of a low code platform, they say everyone can now build products. Yeah, software. And they think perhaps coding was a challenge. That's the reason people didn't build the product. It's not coding. It's about cognitive load. And the surgeons used to say like people cannot use Excel. How do you think people would use local platform? If you're going to democracy, people can't use Excel. Right. It's not about what I mean. I'm telling you. Jensen said. Jensen Nvidia he was in this, I think in a certain stage he said like everyone would be a prompt engineer. I disagree. It's not about prompt engineering. The real greatness comes into asking the right question. That's a real challenge. If you think writing few lines of Node JS or React would make someone a good software engineer, that's not the case. So coming back to that, Hyper is also not a code generator. It's not a low code platform by the way. And even it's not even available to general public. Code ninja developers use this. Right. Code ninjas own developers use this. The core idea as I explained earlier of Hyper is can we bring in our context software developers closer to the problem. So if you see, for example, if you see any resume, I worked in Node js, React Net, Core Azure, that's a sort of. That would be irrelevant in the future. What's relevant is what sort of problems you have worked with. So for me, someone says, I worked in a telecom industry, built this BSS solution. Right. That's more relevant than what he did with Node JS and React. So Hyper basically channels every software developer towards the problem. Right. So he can be. So the idea of Hyper for software workbooks is we introduce. Can every software developer be a domain expert and get this subject matter expertise out of it? So going closer to the problem, to things like coding and knowledge graph and stuff, that's the purpose of Hyper. It's absolutely not a low code platform. I am absolutely against generally with the local. Have you ever tried to build something on local platform, by the way? I have. I mean you would. I mean the level of frustration. It's like using Internet in early 2000s. Yeah, it's like the speed, I mean you, I mean the frustration that comes with local platforms. That's not that you don't want to do that. Even all those systems. I want name but that's bullshit. But if you still has to compare Hyper at this stage, I mean of course we have very different tangents with Sachin and with Builder. But let's say, let's say, I mean part of what Hyper does is what builder AI is planning to do. So that's what Hyper is. So absolutely. Thanks for asking this question. We have not a local platform. There are no intentions to build a local platform in services context when this is for Hyper as like Builder AI perhaps in certain way. But I think we're on a different but within a Code Ninja services spectrum. We're doing lots of offshoring in Code Ninja, right? So for example companies come to us, they build their GCCs, they build their offshore center of excellences with Code Ninja. So every CTO and CIO wants to build a diamond shaped organization. Diamond shaped organization. For example, you want to build, you want everyone to have a certain level of experience. No juniors, no seniors, perhaps everyone with five plus years experience to build a diamond shaped organization. I think Hyper would be incredibly beneficial in the next three to five years because the notion of experience is very fraught. I mean what does it mean that you should have a five? I mean have you ever applied to somewhere? I mean I would ask you not to but if you have, if you're a software engineer the first thing they will notice is and someone give the requirement they say the person should have five plus years of what the hell this five plus years of experience actually mean? What does this mean five plus years of experience? What does it mean you have, I mean you've spent somewhere five plus. I mean I have 22 plus years of experience of living a life on the planet. What does I mean it is absolutely. Then you want to challenge that. I think this the the way to challenge that that years of experience thing seven plus and three plus and two plus years of experience is through Hyper. Because in Hyper is someone with two plus years of experience joins coordinator who are building a diamond shaped organization. In diamond shaped organization someone says we should have a capability at the center of somewhere around plus seven plus years so we can have that extra five plus years of IQ through Hyper, pack it with that two plus years experience and spin the person. So that was, that's. I think that's on the services context to build every organization a Diamond shaped organization is also one of the goal of Hyper within the software services context for coding, right?

I think that definitely sets Hyper apart from so many platforms. Not only even low code or rad.

But if so, if software developers are watching this, or perhaps for them it is that if every software developer needs to be a great domain expert, right? Because once there's a subject matter expert and if there is a software engine, they're trying to solve the problem, there's lots of information lost. The product is not. The product that comes out is not great. That's the why Marriott could not build a Airbnb. Have you asked? The reason is in Marriott there's a hospital head of hospitality, head of experiences, head of this and head of that. In Airbnb there was a cto, he's the head of everything as well. So the combining technology, technology and domain into one person massively unlocks the creativity. And that's what Hyper is for software engineers, right? To make every software engineer domain expert and for services business for people and CIOs and CTOs. If this is about to make every organization a diamond shaped organization, both of these things are. We are trying to achieve.

I think as much as you probably want to say it, the nature of the platform itself, it's just so unique. And one thing I wanted to understand, like how do you make sure, or for instance the team at Hyper, how do they make sure that you, for instance, have sustainability, productivity and a smooth transition, especially when it comes from the ideation stage to the product development phase. How do you ensure that's all smooth?

Ideation is hard, right? But you know what's more harder than ideation? That's iteration. You come up with an idea and the next day you come up with another idea and the next day you think, no, this is not what you want to build. Because the whole idea of building an mvp, the rapid iteration, going, taking your product to the market and then including the market feedback into product again, that's not easy as a software developer. Definitely. That's why there are very few companies who are building, who built their products by outsourcing it, right? You have to be an entrepreneur. You have to be coding in the night, looking at the market in a day. That's how it works, right? With hypr, the goal is for all the entrepreneurs. Can we make this iteration. Part of the development process anyways? I mean, what's good use of a product if you're not talking to the customer, right? And taking that feedback coming, including it back into the product Some people thought perhaps it's agile. Absolutely. It's not agile. I mean, do you think Airbnb was found because of agile methodology? Absolutely. I mean, there's no. I mean, of course to build certain software systems, we need to be agile, but it's not agent. Agent doesn't, is not a container you want to use to do this sort of iteration. It's a massive obsession with the market and including that feedback into the product. Now some people have this thing in it. Normally the entrepreneurs, they have this incredible, incredible capability to listen to the market, be very balanced, synthesize the feedback, including the product. But if you ask an average engineer, then 80% of the answer is what the hell this person knows. I know that there is a normal response. I've seen so many entrepreneurs, I was one like this, I mean, at one point in time, what the hell this guy. But that's an incredible capability to include, to see what customer is telling, synthesize that and include in the product. But we cannot rely, we cannot wait for every Brian Chesky to build Airbnb. There are very few Bryants in the world. So we thought, okay, how can we make it a part of the product development journey? So Hyper allows this rapid iteration in a certain way that even if you are an entrepreneur building some product, if you're not bringing something new every day or every two day, perhaps the developer would say, I mean, that's a requirement for us. I mean, not locking the scope is okay when, if you're building on Hyper. But that's the, that's the, that's the way to start. If you have everything planned, you have world's best project managers, best planners to help you scope things. Perhaps that's not to do with Hyper. Then do it anyway because then it means you have planned already so many things. But if the area where you don't know much of the things where you have no idea what to build, only you're just iterating and you're just coming up with ideas, trying to build, see what works and what doesn't. That's where the Hyper is. Right.

I think otherwise it just.

Otherwise I think do it in other way. I mean, and otherwise it's also that you're not building anything. Cool. Yeah.

It also defeats the purpose of using Hyper. Why would anyone want to use Hyper? You mentioned the fact that there's a particular team of engineers that looks after the execution with clients and perhaps aiding them in these systems to build all those iterations and to get that final product, that perfect fit that you know, sort of they've been looking from the get go. Could you give us some details about that particular team of experts? How do they function?

What do they do? So there's a product development team hniper who is actually building the product and there's a Hyper squads. Hyper squads are engineers who are using the product hyper and working with entrepreneurs and working with technologists to build their products and ideas to do solutions. So Hyper squads once they are working with different entrepreneurs they share their feedbacks in that product team includes that feedback into the main product. That's how it's currently working. And then there's lots of knowledge base that corninga is acquiring. As I said I was counting I've worked on more than 1400 plus ideas. Right. That knowledge base, that knowledge base I mean is that codingja has acquired from last 10 years working so many that's being integrated into Hyper through Hyper squads and Hyper product teams. So that's the function of hyper. So for example, if someone wants to us working with this very large enterprise company in Middle east and they are building this, they're optimizing their fleet through. Hyper through conversational AI and we're building this thing in hyper. So what it happens is so we get the requirement right data so our team pumps out, we call it rdoc. So pumps rdoc. It's a requirement document. You need to just tell what you want to do. We'll tell you how it looks like it's and it's like we've just removed that business analysis thing out of the equation. It pumps out in next eight hours tells you that's what you want to build. They say yes, that's what I build. And then after RDOC we pass that on Rdoc to HyperSquartz and HyperSport takes out Rdoc. Talk to the entrepreneur, talk to the technologist and then start building that hard dog. Right and pumps out the first version. Right. So that's what I, that's what the process let's say the goal of this thing when we should doing it in hyper is that nothing. First of all, I think gone are the days when you need very big teams and 20 people and front end and back end and center and I don't know what that was like. You need one or two hyper developers hyper squads to build anything of a value, I mean especially in the services context until unless you are not building avionics for SpaceX but the rest is fine, right? The one or two Hyper squads Hyper developers having that RDOC working with that guy that's what Hyper is, that's how it's organized. But, and the goal is nothing, absolutely nothing should take more than two months. Well, if it's taking more than two months, you are doing it wrong. You are either not using Hyper properly or the guy you are working with. They don't know how to plan their thing. So that's why, because I think as again I'll, I'll quote Amir Hussain, he recently said in his webinar that he said if when you were born, you're born into a certain idea space, as you grow forward, your experiences, your idea space becomes bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger, right? And I think that's very fascinating thought. If we really need to expand our idea space, I'm talking about humans, whether you are hypersquad, you are entrepreneur, whoever you are, right? Everyone has to expand their idea space. It's important for us to have, it's important to work on lots of different ideas, right? There's so many great entrepreneurs I talk to, they say so many things excite them all their life. They look for one unified container which covers all their excitement, right? And it's true. What I'm saying with Hyper is we need to execute lots of ideas, lots of ideas. And that's only possible if we make it real, real quick.

I think that's such a significant pillar of the platform itself, hyperspace. And one thing I probably want to understand, how do you see its long term future? Hyper's long term future, regardless of any market, how do you see its long term future?

Look, Hyper squads and building it for technologists and entrepreneurs are part of a roadmap that's not a mission. If you go back to the mission making intelligence programmable for every person on the planet, what that really means is again my inspiration, the way we did with energy, right? I really want intelligence to be programmable for every person in our homes and all that in our building and our pumps, right? That's, that's the goal. So I think, imagine just like we have a master switch in every house, right? Just imagine again I'm giving you the analogy with energy. And there you can program all the electrical wirings and appliances, switch and circuits of your home, right? I think that level of intelligence deployment, that level of intelligence control would be available through every home, in every home and, and to every person, right? And it has not to be through Octopus or some AGI bot like chatgpt. It has to be, I think it that intelligence, the human interaction with intelligence should be in a Not in, in the words of bits and bytes. It should be in the world of atoms. That's where the whole thing come into place. What I'm thinking is in a long term, I think in a roadmap can we, can we have this intelligence program programmability available to every house, to everybody. So then we can for example, I mean imagine that in every house there are so many electro electrical devices, so many IoT devices that has to be, they have to be programmable, right? So for example you have a fridge and you want that fridge to be act in a certain way and that, that is controllable. But currently rather than controlling that IoT device through your mobile app, is there a master unit deployed outside your house that is controlling all these things and stuff like that? That, that's a situation and deployment and control of intelligence. So that's the goal. It. If we are able to do that, right? If we are able to do such sort of stuff in our house, in our homes where we can genuinely control and deploy the intelligence beyond bots and beyond things like Optimus, that's able. For example, if you have a Tesla, for example parked in your Porsche. Tesla is a. It's a high programmable machine. Right now that programming is being done generally through mobile app, right? That's fine. I mean doing. But my idea of hyper is imagine you have a intelligence board next to your energy board and there one switch is for one. One programmability is for Tesla. Okay, Whenever the car is in your porch, do this, this, this, do this, this, this, do this, this. That's a situational deployment control of that's. And that is a physical. In a world of atoms. As Peter Thiel used to say that we have done incredible progress in the world of bits and bytes. We've done little in the world of atoms. And that's. I think if we find out a way in a long term that the human interaction with intelligence is true in the world of atoms, that would be better. And that's. I think that's. That that would be very interesting. I don't know how the future will like absolutely have no idea by the way. But it seems interesting that if we can find out some analogy with energy, what we've done with energy and that's very fascinating to me, right.

I think before we wrap up today's episode, any last word of advice especially for those entrepreneurs and let's say businesses and people from startups who are watching, any advice for them who are seeking.

To build MVPs with hyper one of the Thing I really wanted to and want to do is I've done eight job, eight years. I've been working for eight, nine years. And I mean, it's a lot of learning from that, right? I think that before in mvp, I would want to make a point that if you're doing a job right, it's not a thing that if you're doing a job, you can't build a business. I don't want to challenge that, right. I want hyper. I want to position hyper for people in a way, build hyper in a way that the people, for people who are, who are doing jobs, earning money and then invest that thing into some shitty plot and buy a real estate, right? Make it dead, make their money dead. And consider that real estate is a store of value. I want every person who is doing job, right? Before I come to an entrepreneurship doing job, every person who is doing job has to build something, maybe a software or AI product and consider that a store of value. So my first thing, for all the people who are doing jobs, who are doing, who are being. And that's incredible way. It's incredible that you are finding so much discipline and doing job and stuff. There's nothing wrong with your. I mean, there's a buzz that everyone needs to be an entrepreneur. You said everyone needs to win. That's a big deal. Everyone needs to be an entrepreneur. But you have, you can do lots of. Yeah, you can do your job as well, by the way. So what I'm saying is you are saving $50,000, let's say, and then you use that $50,000 to invest in shitty stocks or you buy some real estate. What I would like to argue is you can find an AI software product as a store of value, invest there as an mvp. It's my job to make sure if you don't, if you have an idea of money, right? The onus of building something great should not be on the person. I mean, is it, I mean, you are, for example, you have $50,000, right? And you go to a real estate broker and ask him that you want to invest $50,000. Has it ever happened that he says to you, look, it's your job to find out what property to invest. It's your job. If you fail, you will fail, right? I'm not going to help. That's why you are on top. That's why you're an investor. It never happens. He says to you, look, these are 10 properties. You need to invest here. You need to invest here. Trust me, your money is safe. It's the job of the hyper to pump those ideas nuggets and fine tune that idea planning of that idea into a way where that person feels very comfortable that his money is not going to waste. This thing would be of a certain value. The notion of that 99.9% of the products are failed. And because entrepreneurs doesn't have a certain level of resilience, it was about there should be proper planning, there should be proper go to market, there should be enough. Everything has to be done. And everyone was an entrepreneur before 1700s. This industrialization made this job thing. Everyone was an entrepreneur more or less 60 up to 16, 17 and everyone was an entrepreneur. So it means everyone had found out a way to create a value. Right. And as Sam Altman used to say, the first time the world would see 1%, 2% billion dollar companies. What does it really mean? It means there would be entrepreneurs who would.